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You Don't Know Why We Do It, and Neither Do We · Not a Doorknob

• 0:00
  [upbeat music] Hey there, you're listening to the Big Book Deep Dive with John and Amon on Progress and Perfection. You can find more info and subscribe to the Daily Reflection at progressandperfection.com.
• 0:14
  If you're listening out there- Let us know... I don't know. Yeah, I'd love some feedback. I wanna know what you guys are thinking. What you guys want more of, what you want less of, like- Absolutely... we need to know.
• 0:24
  We have no idea what we're doing. Absolutely. We're just winging it. You know? And I, I don't know. I don't know about you, but I feel like we wanna be productive with this time. Absolutely.
• 0:31
  And we wanna be a benefit to our fellow man. And we will about-face if there's something we need to about-face. For sure. For sure. We're just charging forward until then. Absolutely. Yeah. You know?
• 0:39
  And we, you know- Yeah, so- Anybody that's out there, if you are listening, [lips smack] uh, we'd love to hear from you. Give us some feedback. Bring it. Bring it. Not comments.
• 0:53
  Comment, uh, just kidding, comments are welcome. [laughs] Probably won't get read, but feedback, would love it. Would love to hear it. Yeah. Uh, good to see you. Good to see you. Welcome back. Always a pleasure.
• 1:03
  We are in the midst of There is a Solution, part two, of which an undetermined number of parts. That's true. That's true. Uh, and as you... Oh, my gosh, yeah, I just turned to page 25, and there it is.
• 1:20
  There is a Solution. But that's on page 25. Yeah. [laughs] We're on page 19. [laughs] Oh, it, it, it goes through a lot of problem before we get back to the solution. Uh, yeah, no doubt.
• 1:28
  [laughs] Uh, I'm familiar with problems. Okay, would you like to start off? I will. Please. Bottom of page 19. Hold on. Anybody, I wish you guys could see his, uh, his book. This, this is awesome, right?
• 1:38
  'Cause his book is hilarious. [laughs] Apparently his book had come apart at the seams, and there's a section that has popped out of his book that he is holding onto, so it looks like a little pamphlet.
• 1:48
  May- maybe it's 30 pages. He's like the CliffsNotes. Yeah, maybe 30, 40 pages. Yeah, it looks like a CliffsNotes guide. It's wonderful. Uh, yeah, that's pretty awesome.
• 1:54
  It's gonna work just great for the first couple chapters, and- Yeah. I mean, it looks convenient. [laughs] It looks good. All right, here we are.
• 2:01
  "Of necessity, there will have to be discussion of matters medical, psychiatric, social, and religious. We're aware that these matters are, from their very nature, controversial.
• 2:14
  Nothing would please us so much as to write a book which would contain no basis for contention or argument. We shall do our utmost to achieve that ideal.
• 2:25
  Most of us sense that real tolerance of other people's shortcomings and viewpoints, and a respect for their opinions, are attitudes which make us more useful to others.
• 2:35
  Our very lives as ex-problem drinkers depend upon our constant thought of others and how we may help meet their needs. You may already have asked yourself why it is all of us became so very ill from drinking.
• 2:51
  Doubtless you're curious to discover how and why, in the face of expert opinion to the contrary, we have recovered from a hopeless condition of mind and body.
• 3:01
  If you are an alcoholic who wants to get over it, you may already be asking, 'What do I have to do?' It's the purpose of this book to answer such questions specifically. We shall tell you what we have done.
• 3:14
  Before going into a detailed discussion, it may be well to summarize some points as we see them." All right, so what do you hear in that? What do you hear in that section?
• 3:25
  So this, this is, like, the, you know, we're, we're a couple chapters in. Three, if you count the doctor's opinion. This seems like the first preface statement of, "Hang with us.
• 3:37
  We are not trying to offend anybody or any point of view, but we're gonna talk about things that are religious, that are debatable, that are controversial, and we're doing it because we really do have folks' best interests at, at heart."
• 3:54
  Yeah. And so it feels almost like the f- the first little disclaimer piece to me. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's like a short preface. Yeah. Um, so, uh, why is it of necessity?
• 4:05
  Why is it that, that, the first line that you read, "Of necessity there will have to be discussion of medical, psychiatric, social, and religious"?
• 4:13
  Well, there's gonna be pe- people that, that buck up against that and, and say that it's not necessary. Mm-hmm. And I think that there's been plenty of people that have tried, maybe to some success, I don't know. Mm-hmm.
• 4:23
  But again, these folks found stuff that worked, that was rooted in scripture and a lot of other places, psychiatric in nature, and religious, and, um,
• 4:38
  a- and so all they really have to go on is their own experience, of which they have only a couple years at the point of the writing of this book. So they're just going into it saying, "Hey,
• 4:49
  this is how we recovered, and we really did try everything else." Yeah. We had doc- you know, we went to hospitals, we tried medical intervention.
• 4:57
  Uh, and, and this combination, this moral psychology that we keep going back to, like, it's, it's what worked. Right. Right. Yeah. I, I, I just... Uh, it also speaks to just their desire to heal, like, the whole self.
• 5:13
  Mm-hmm. Not just in abstinence. Right. Not just a part of yourself, but, like, the whole self, and it's this recognition that there are multiple parts that need to be healed. Um, and so it is.
• 5:25
  It's like, uh, this all-inclusive, like, we're, we- we're going to make a concerted effort to try and treat all parts of you.
• 5:35
  The medical piece, you know, the biological piece, the psychiatric piece, you know, the mental health piece, the social piece, which is that idea, you know, combats the loneliness and isolation.
• 5:47
  So the, like, the social piece, reestablishment of community, and the religious piece, you know?
• 5:52
  And if there's any hot button discussion that, that they're, they're pulling out for the time the book was written and even to the present, it's the religious piece. But it, I think it's cool because it acknowledges-
• 6:04
  At least I think it's, it's their way of acknowledging that no one exists in this world on their own terms.
• 6:11
  That, that whether we like it or not, there, there is a God, and this God is a God that cares about you and desires to have relationship with you.
• 6:21
  Uh, and so I think it's kind of a, a, a way of addressing and saying like, "No, all parts of you are going to be addressed, even the part that you may not believe." Mm. That idea that God does care about you.
• 6:33
  We're gonna go there. You know, we're gonna, we're gonna go into that terry, territory. Um, and so like, yeah, I think it's a...
• 6:40
  Like you said, it's like this, this disclaimer or this almost preface statement, uh, of, of what's to come, you know? And it's, it's, uh... Of course I'm a,
• 6:52
  I'm a straightforward guy, so I'd rather see it be a little bit more unapologetic. Mm. Uh, but I certainly appreciate the, the trepidation that they're, they're outlining that with. Um, yeah, any other thoughts?
• 7:06
  Well, and it becomes more unapologetic, I think, as we get into- Mm-hmm... the specifics. 'Cause this last bit, you know, this is the purpose of this book, to answer such questions specifically. Mm-hmm.
• 7:16
  And it really does delve into, as we'll see over the weeks to come, very specific things- Right... directly spiritual in practice. Mm-hmm.
• 7:26
  Um, and yeah, there's caveats and stuff to where they clean up the language to, to do exactly what they're setting out here, but, but I do think that they get more into that than they even lead on to here. Yeah. Yeah.
• 7:38
  Yeah. Well, and they kind of, yeah, like even the next line, [chuckles] "We shall tell you what we have done." Mm-hmm. That's pretty directive. Yeah. You know? It's not, "We might tell you what we've done." Yeah.
• 7:51
  "We may tell you." No, "We, we shall." Yeah. You know, I think there's something pretty declarative- Mm-hmm... even in that statement. Um, all right, continue please.
• 8:00
  "How many times people have said to us, 'I can take it or leave it alone. Why can't he? Why don't you drink like a gentleman or quit? That fella can't handle his liquor. Why don't you try beer and wine?
• 8:14
  Lay off the hard stuff. His willpower must be weak. He could stop if he wanted to. She's such a sweet girl, I should think he'd stop for her sake.
• 8:25
  The doctor told him that if he ever drank again, it would kill him, but there he is all lit up again.' Now, these are commonplace observations on drinkers which we hear all the time.
• 8:36
  Back of them is a world of ignorance and misunderstanding. We see that these expressions refer to people whose reactions are very different from ours." Now, let me ask you- Mm...
• 8:49
  has this been modernized at all, this perception of alcoholism, in your eyes? [sighs] Uh, so- From, from the general public, I mean onlookers. Sure. I, uh, I think like,
• 9:07
  culture certainly has a definition of permissibility, um, and what, what, what they deem as culturally acceptable behavior.
• 9:17
  And so I think what, when this book was written, what may at times have been socially unacceptable, uh, now certainly
• 9:27
  there are passes and allowances that are, that are made that I think, uh, certainly allow people to escape maybe impending realities upon just how bad their drinking situation is. I mean,
• 9:42
  you know, we've, I think we've said this before, but like, it's, it's such an, an alcohol saturated culture these days. Mm-hmm. It seems that everywhere you go, there's alcohol served now. I mean,
• 9:56
  freaking A, man, like Cracker Barrel serves alcohol. Like it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's at freaking Cracker Barrel. Like now it's, I think, I don't know how much a beer is.
• 10:06
  If you're out there, let us know how much a beer is at Cracker Barrel. [chuckles] Love you, Cracker Barrel, by the way.
• 10:10
  Um, but you know, like it, it, it just speaks to just the, just how, how permeated and saturated our culture is with alcohol. And when like the norm
• 10:21
  is like wine Wednesday, you know, whatever, throwback Thursday, you know, everything is, is, is, has become so permissible, I think it's hard for people to see that their behavior is even problematic because they're just doing what everybody else does.
• 10:36
  Mm-hmm. You know? And if you, if you got a problem, like, "Oh, that's fine, you know, it's, it's, it's not that big a deal. Just have a few, you know, go ahead and, you know, have a few Advil and you're gonna be fine."
• 10:48
  Um, but I will say, so, so I would say that's like the cultural piece there. But I know in my office, this is exactly what it sounds like. Uh, these are the things that people have heard.
• 11:04
  Um, these are the peop- things that people tell themselves. These are s- the solutions that people try themselves. Um, you know, maybe it's, it's the fact that I'm drinking vodka. Let me switch over to beer or wine.
• 11:18
  Mm-hmm. Um, you know, this, this idea that like, I should be able to just stop, uh, you know, that he could, he could stop if he wanted to. So I think it's kind of like a, like a, I don't know, I think, I think the
• 11:33
  society itself has painted just this real picture of permissibility.
• 11:38
  Um, but w- in the nuts and bolts of it, that's why I keep coming back to this, that's why I'm so glad we're doing this, but like when it comes to the nuts and bolts of the problem, it's, it's still the exact same.
• 11:47
  Like tolerance may [chuckles] socially acceptable level of tolerance may have, may have increased, but clinically speaking, it's still the same. Yeah. And, and I have, I have a perception that
• 12:02
  the general public has this idea of- Knowledge of alcoholism and drug addiction, and that there's also this social, not acceptive, acceptability of it, but, you know, oh yeah, you know, there's a problem.
• 12:18
  There's a solution for that. Like, it's a known quantity, you know? But it's always pigeonholed into, but, you know, that's not, that's not me or that's not you. Or that's, I know of people that- Yeah...
• 12:30
  and I know of places they can go if- Right. Right, right... um, and uh, yeah, I don't, I don't know where I was going exactly with that. Yeah. But just, just the curious nature, even in the public's eye- Mm...
• 12:43
  not necessarily in the alcoholic's eye, of wanting to minimize and rationalize the problem over there out of sight. Totally. Totally. Or even inwardly, the problem in here- Yeah... out of sight. Yeah.
• 12:57
  You know, the rationalizations and the justifications that your friend used to allow the behavior to be permissible, or that you used to allow the behavior to be permissible. Um,
• 13:07
  you know, I mean, like you, you, you go to football games and these guys are drinking like these big ass cans of beer, and they're drinking like five or six of them, and it's no problem.
• 13:20
  Like, they're there with their kid, and they're there with their wife, and their wife's having some too, and their buddies are all having some.
• 13:25
  And it's like, "Well, whatever, this is, this is just what you do when you go to a game." Right. So that's what I mean. Like, the threshold of acceptability is- Yeah...
• 13:33
  is so damn high these days that, that you literally have to be like, oh, well, that's the guy that drinks a liter of vodka a day starting in the morning to be identified as, like, a problem drinker. Yeah, yeah.
• 13:48
  But me, I got... You know, this is... No, this is just what we all do. It's like the new normal is, like, hammered all the... You know, it's, it's just, it's bizarre. It's bizarre. Like, even, even, even with, like,
• 14:00
  housewives. Super normal for housewives now to just drink wine when their kids go to bed, and pop a Xanax. Is it problematic? Well, yeah, that's problematic. Yeah.
• 14:11
  But not to them, because everybody in their cohort does it. Because they're all doing it. This is what we do. Yeah. Like, well, duh, our kids are just crazy.
• 14:17
  And like, man, I'm so glad when they go to bed, 'cause then it's my time to unwind, you know, with a couple glasses of wine and a Xanax. And you know, it's all good, 'cause my husband's, you know, whatever.
• 14:28
  So yeah, I don't know. I think all that to say the threshold is so high now that I think
• 14:36
  maybe people just end up so over their heads by the time that they get to me or, or they get to you in a, in a meeting, or they get to treatment- Mm...
• 14:47
  um, that it's like, yeah, they've heard these before, but, but we're, we're [laughs] we're beyond that now. All right. It's about to talk about the different types of drinkers. Mm-hmm. Love it. Moderate drinkers.
• 15:00
  Is that where I am? Yes. Yeah. Moderate drinkers have little trouble in giving up liquor entirely if they have good reason for it. They can take it or leave it alone. Then we have a certain type of hard drinker.
• 15:14
  He may have had the habit badly enough to gradually impair him physically and mentally, and may cause him to die a few years before his time.
• 15:23
  If a sufficiently strong reason, ill health, falling in love, change of environment, or the warning of a doctor, becomes operative, this man can also stop or moderate, although he may find it difficult and troublesome, and may even need medical attention.
• 15:40
  But what about the real alcoholic? He may start off as a moderate drinker. He may or may not become a continuous hard drinker.
• 15:49
  But at some stage of his drinking career, he begins to lose all control of his liquor consumption once he starts to drink. Here is the fella who has been puzzling you, especially in his lack of control.
• 16:04
  He does absurd, incredible, tragic things while drinking. He's a real Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. He's seldom mildly intoxicated. He's always more or less insanely drunk.
• 16:17
  His disposition while drinking resembles his normal nature but little. He may be one of the finest fellows in the world, yet let him drink for a day and he frequently becomes disgustingly and even dangerously antisocial.
• 16:31
  He has a positive genius for getting tight at exactly the wrong moment, particularly when some important decision be ma- must be made or engagement kept.
• 16:42
  He's often perfectly sensible and well-balanced concerning everything except liquor. But in that respect, he is incredibly dishonest and selfish.
• 16:54
  I'm just gonna keep going, 'cause this is, it's a huge paragraph, but- Yeah... I'm gonna get to the- Yeah... to the b- the end of it. Yeah.
• 17:01
  He often possesses special abilities, skills, and aptitudes, and has a promising career ahead of him.
• 17:08
  He uses his gifts to build up a bright outlook for his family and himself, and then pulls the structure down on his head by a senseless series of sprees.
• 17:18
  He is the fellow who goes to bed so intoxicated he ought to sleep the clock around, yet early next morning, he searches madly for the, the bottle he misplaced the night before.
• 17:30
  If he can afford it, he may have liquor concealed all over his house to be certain no one gets his entire supply away from him to throw down the waste pipe.
• 17:40
  As matters grow worse, he begins to use a combination of high-powered sedatives and liquor to quiet his nerves so he can go to work. Then comes the day when he simply cannot make it and gets drunk all over again.
• 17:54
  Perha- perhaps he goes to the doctor, who gives him morphine or some sedative with which to taper off. Then he begins to appear at hospitals and sanitariums.
• 18:05
  This is by no means a comprehensive picture of the true alcoholic, as our behavior patterns vary, but this description should identify him Roughly Whoo. All right. So- Yeah... talk to me about moderate drinkers.
• 18:20
  Well, it's- What is, what's that? I, I guess I was one for a few days at least. Moderate drinkers have little trouble giving it up if they've got a good reason for it.
• 18:31
  So part of the, the curious nature of my story, and, and I guess yours too, getting sober early, young in life, I was 19 when I got sober, there wasn't a lot of [laughs] time- Mm...
• 18:45
  to experience and really define these levels, if you will, of drinking. A, I was doing it illegally from the get-go, so there was a sneaking around, lying component attached to it from the very get-go. Mm.
• 18:59
  So I don't know what normal, responsible drinking was supposed to look like. Mm-hmm. Um, I, I do, I do know that in the first probably year, and this is like sophomore, freshman, sophomore, junior years of high school,
• 19:15
  yeah, I think if there had been sufficient reason to stop, uh, I mean, I don't think there would've been any issue physically, um, or emotionally or, or when... I don't think I had crossed over- Mm-hmm...
• 19:28
  into the full throes of addiction- Yeah... until probably my, probably my senior year was that turning point for me. Just the progression escalated, added more drugs to the mix, all the things, right?
• 19:43
  But there was not sufficient reason. Mm-hmm. I was still in my F-U, F everybody, parents suck. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna do my own thing. I'm learning how to cuss, how to drink, how to smoke. Um, so it's just the opposite of it.
• 19:58
  Everything was actively fueling the desire to continue- Mm-hmm... and to progress and to really to see where it led. Mm-hmm. Um, the, the, the whole curiosity thing got me into the whole world to begin with. Mm-hmm.
• 20:14
  And then just led me further down the spiral. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I love that, and I'll reflect a little bit on, on my story in a second. Um, what about the hard drinker? Not yet the real alcoholic, but the hard drinker.
• 20:30
  You know, that's a, that's a hard line for me to define. Mm-hmm. 'Cause they look a lot the, uh, the same. Mm-hmm. And I think it's when there's abstinence either forced on or walked into, then
• 20:46
  when the drinker becomes sober- Mm-hmm... you find out, oh, is the, is the problem exas- what's that word? Exacerbated? Exacerbated? Yeah. Does it get worse now that we're sober? Yeah, yeah.
• 20:58
  In the case of the alcoholic, it does. Mm-hmm. Like, if we don't have a sufficient substitute. Mm-hmm. In the case of the heavy drinker, I think- Mm-hmm... that's, that's like life goes on.
• 21:07
  You've mentioned that with people who have put it down after heavy drinking in college, whatever. They, they grow up. Right. That's the growing up. Right. The normal person just going through the- Yeah...
• 21:16
  the growing up, and then maybe they can be a moderate drinker thereafter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and, and I think like, um, I think we have to be careful in the rooms to allow people the freedom
• 21:31
  to explore those types of drinkers. Because I think what we can do, uh, sometimes rightly, but maybe sometimes also wrongly, is make this presumption that people are alcoholic. They are real alcoholics. Yeah.
• 21:48
  Like, you got here, therefore, this is who you are. Yeah. And I've, I've seen like, you know, like we've mentioned prior, but like, I've seen people who had very problematic drinking patterns, let's say, through college,
• 22:03
  uh, suddenly like not drink anymore, or be like the guy that literally drinks like a beer during a football game during football season but doesn't drink anymore. Ha- had that guy shown up in AA in college,
• 22:20
  he would have been labeled as like this, this real alcoholic. You know, so I do. I think we have to like be very, very fair towards people and, and really cue into their experiences,
• 22:33
  uh, and allow them to free, allow them the freedom to figure out what type of alcoholic- Mm-hmm... they are. You know, and that could be based on going back out and trying again. You know what I'm saying?
• 22:45
  And sort of proving to themselves that like, this is unsuccessful. Um, you know, I went to treatment when I was 24. Stayed clean off of, I mean, I haven't done a drug since 1999.
• 22:58
  Um, but certainly after a period of time, I think due to a lot of, um, probably insecurities on my part, maybe two and a half, three years after, I'd gotten into school. Mm-hmm. It was on the heels of a breakup.
• 23:12
  I'd gotten into school and was gonna go back to school, and so was trying to, obviously, I was an old man in a sea of young men, uh, and was trying to make friends. Mm-hmm.
• 23:24
  You know, and, and trying to sort of establish myself, uh, in a peer relationship. And, and I, you know, looking back on it, I didn't really need to do that. But I did it anyway. Yeah. Right.
• 23:35
  You know, and one of my ways of doing that was like, okay, I convinced myself, like, dude, I went to treatment for drugs. Yeah. I'm not doing drugs. Yeah. I don't wanna do drugs. Not doing the bad stuff. You know?
• 23:45
  But like, let me just, let me just try drinking. You know, and I can remember going to a bar that first night, uh, and having a glass of wine, i.e. the, well, I'm not drinking hard stuff. Uh-huh. I'm drinking wine.
• 23:59
  Uh-huh. Had a glass of wine. Uh, had one glass, paid it, went home, got up for my 8:00 AM class. You know, I'm making A's, top of my class. Like, what's the problem? I'm running. Like, whatever. Just- Yeah... oh, see?
• 24:14
  I'm not a freaking... Nothing happened. Like- [laughs]... they were wrong. Uh, went back the next night See a problem already. But, like, went back there the next night, had two glasses of wine. You know, whatever.
• 24:28
  Stopped there. In fact, I had a glass of water while my friend kept drinking. [laughs] Oh, I'm better than he is, you know? Yeah. Wake up for class, whatever. Like, this, there's no problem here, you know?
• 24:40
  And I think by the end of that week, I was blackout drunk. No doubt. Yeah. Uh, and basically was a, what...
• 24:53
  I don't know, like, a hard drinker at best, but an alcoholic more likely- Mm-hmm... for the next, I don't even know, four years? Hmm.
• 25:06
  You know, and was able to con- to, to fool myself, uh, and not label myself as a real alcoholic because I would go to work. I'm running 20 miles a freaking day. Whatever. You can't be an alcoholic and run 20 miles a day.
• 25:20
  You know, I was very functional. I wouldn't drink at the inappropriate times. Mm-hmm. I wouldn't make an ass out of myself. Uh, so I thought. Um, you know, but I, I had some, some boundaries around it, uh,
• 25:35
  that allowed me to convince myself that this isn't as big a problem- Mm-hmm... as it is. Uh, but slowly but surely, you know, my life began unraveling. You know, I was doing things that I said I would never do.
• 25:51
  Uh, I was putting my wife through things that I said I would never put her through. Um, I was drinking and driving like a freaking maniac, like a, you know, like a maniac. Uh, and lo and behold, one night, um,
• 26:08
  I'd passed out on my couch and my wife came in and said, "John, are you okay?" And I was like, "Yeah, I'm fine." Like, "What's the problem?" And she was like, "What happened to your car?" Oh.
• 26:22
  And I was like, "What are you talking about? Nothing happened to my car." And she was like, "The whole side of your car is crushed in." Ooh. "What happened to your car?" And I was like, "I don't know." No idea.
• 26:39
  And I went outside. You know, I'm still drunk at this time 'cause she woke me up. I was passed out. And I go outside and, and as best as I can tell, somebody had hit me. Um,
• 26:53
  and there was, there was a, I think it was Whataburger. There were two Whataburger sandwiches in my car, so apparently I'd driven to Whataburger down on High Street. Uh-huh.
• 27:01
  And I lived in Belhaven at the time, and I was coming down the back road, and I'm guessing the other guy was drunk too. You know, who knows? But, like, apparently somebody had hit me in the side of the, of the car,
• 27:13
  and I guess I hightailed it out of there, you know, and just drove straight home and pulled in and, and had, had passed out and didn't remember any of it. Uh, and so that was sort of a wake-up call. Hmm.
• 27:29
  But the real wake-up call was my wife's reaction because it was like, "This has to stop." Mm-hmm. And I was like, "Damn." [laughs] Damn. I think she's probably right. [laughs] She's probably got a point.
• 27:42
  I think she's probably right. [laughs] Yeah, I think she's probably right. Yeah. The gig is up. You know? Yeah, and that, that really set in motion my, um, more dedicated journey through sobriety. Mm-hmm.
• 27:56
  You know, it was that sort of wake-up call- Mm-hmm... that, like, man, this is out of hand, and the checks and balances you think you have established, they ain't working. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So, like,
• 28:10
  that was sort of how I experienced these things. Mm-hmm. You know, I don't think I was ever a moderate drinker. I can check that box. I can remember first time I ever drank I was blackout drunk. Mm-hmm.
• 28:20
  Drinking vodka out of a dog bowl in high school. [laughs] I can totally, you know... Um, barfed my brains out the next day. So I don't think I ever- Yeah... was a moderate drinker.
• 28:29
  You know, at, at my best, I was a whatever, hard drinker, but certainly became a real alcoholic, you know? So that's, yeah, that's, that's, um, that's sort of my journey through those, through those stages.
• 28:46
  And it's interesting too, just a couple more reflections. Um, you know, there's popular alcohol theory or addiction theory is that there is stages to it. It's progressive, you know- Mm-hmm...
• 28:57
  and the book makes that point, and, but, like, the progressiveness of the stages, you can Google it. It's out there if you just Google, like, you know, progress- alcohol progression disease.
• 29:08
  There's this graph that sort of shows the, the journey through these stages and just how once you get to stage four, you've reached this place of just absolute despair. But it's kind of a cool, cool document.
• 29:20
  Yeah, see if you can find it and maybe put a link to it. Um, but the other thing I think that stands out here that, that, uh, I, I wasn't guilty of, but, but tons of my, tons of people I work with are...
• 29:33
  Well, I, I take that back. I'll tell you why. But tons of my people that I work with, uh, have hidden alcohol all over their houses. Hmm. Like, all over their houses. You know, you've heard those stories before. Right.
• 29:43
  You know, when these guys get sober and they'll, like, go to treatment, they'll come home, and they'll find a bottle, and they're like, "What the fuck?" Yeah. "I had no idea." Yeah.
• 29:49
  "I'd freaking hidden this in the, you know, behind the third book on the fourth row of the bookshelf." Stashes within stashes. I mean, all over the place. Yeah. You know, bottles all over the place.
• 29:57
  But something else that I, I was guilty of that a lot of alcoholics will do is that regardless of how drunk they are, once they reach this idea that I'm about to run out of booze, they go and they get more.
• 30:12
  Uh, and it's this, like, it's not FOMO, but I guess FORO, fear of running out. Yeah. [laughs] You know, but this idea that, like, I could potentially run out of alcohol before I'm done drinking. Um, and I don't...
• 30:25
  In my drinking experience, this was true, and I'm sure it probably is with other people. Um- I never ran out. More times than not, I'd never touched that next stash- Mm... that I drove intoxicated to the store to get.
• 30:38
  Yeah. But it was there. But it was there. It was a comfort. It was there. It was just knowledge that I'm not gonna run out. I've got to keep this buzz going, and I'm not gonna run out. You know?
• 30:49
  So like, yeah, I can, I can relate to that, but, but, but certainly have seen it with clients, so. Sorry, I didn't mean to dominate. No, that was excellent. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, for sure.
• 30:59
  "Why does he behave like this?" [laughs] Great question.
• 31:06
  [laughs] "If hundreds of experiences have shown him that one drink means another debacle with all its attendant suffering and humiliation, why is it he takes that one drink? Why can't he stay on the water wagon?
• 31:21
  What has become of the common sense and willpower that he still sometimes displays with respect to other matters? Perhaps there never will be a full answer to these questions." All right, hold on. Yeah.
• 31:33
  So this is great, and I just had this experience today with a guy. I'm like, "Okay, so why do you do this?" Yeah. And he's like, "That's a great question. I don't know."
• 31:48
  And I just loved it because it was so honest and sincere c- I mean, 'cause I was like, "I don't know either." [laughs] You know, like... But he doesn't know. You know? And I think a lot of times, like, we don't know.
• 31:58
  And, and, and I love that, like, perhaps there will never be a full answer to these questions, uh, because I think that's true. You know?
• 32:07
  I don't know that we could ever grapple with the full- the fullness of why we get into the situation that we get into. Um, so I just... I don't know.
• 32:17
  I just- Well, it's part of the insanity, the, the quirk of insanity- Mm. Mm-hmm... that, that all this entails.
• 32:23
  I think I've told you, I don't know if I've mentioned it on the show yet, like, I had the experience of sobering up very briefly, and in between treatments, in between before I went down to Mississippi and actually sobered up, like, I got to the point of
• 32:40
  just complete discomfort. Mm. Gotta do something to change how I feel. Was going to meetings, had been introduced to the program, and I remember where I was in the church parking lot- Mm...
• 32:49
  on a Sunday morning in between services, just sitting... I went up to hang out in my car, just like skin crawling. Mm. Just I don't want... I can't be around people. Mm-hmm. And making the decision- Mm-hmm...
• 33:02
  not really understanding it in the moment. Mm. Stone cold sober- Mm... making the decision, oh, I'm gonna, yeah, I'm gonna go drink. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna go get something. Mm-hmm. You know, and planning that out. Mm-hmm.
• 33:13
  And it ma- it makes no sense- Right... at all. Right. Knowing where it's gonna go. Yeah. Same thing that happened the last time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, so like, yeah, I w- I mean, why did you do that?
• 33:26
  It's, it's the shrug moment. I mean, I, I so appreciate [laughs] what your client said. "I have no freaking idea." Yeah. No clue. I mean, a- and at the root of it, you know, I wanted to feel different. Mm-hmm.
• 33:35
  I kne- I knew I would feel different. Sure. But- Sure... it doesn't answer the bigger question. Right. Knowing, 'cause I was well aware. It wasn't like, oh, I'm gonna try to drink a glass of wine.
• 33:45
  It's like, I know where this is going. Mm-hmm. Like, I know my intent here. Mm-hmm. And I don't know why I'm gonna do it, but I am, I'm gonna go after it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, it's, it's baffling. Yeah.
• 33:55
  I mean, it's just, it's, it's bizarre. Mm-hmm. It's bizarre. It's, it's, it's, it is. It's virtually unanswerable. You know? And I think, like,
• 34:10
  maybe there are people, there are church people out there that would butt up against that, and they would say, "Well, it's totally answerable. It's because you have a sin problem." Mm. Uh, well, that's way too simple.
• 34:21
  [laughs] That's, that's way too simple- Yeah... of a, of an answer to that question.
• 34:29
  You know, because I do, I think it just extends so far beyond that, and that's why, again, I appreciate, like, how we started out today, that they are not going to shy away, and they are talking about medical- Mm...
• 34:40
  psychiatric, social, and religious. 'Cause they saw it as, like, too big of a problem to have a simple little- There's not a... It's not a pray this prayer, and it's gonna fix it. No. No. It's just not, not that clean.
• 34:57
  No. No. And I think even the caveat, like, the, the little anecdote in AA, like, do anything else, but just don't drink, I think that even acknowledges how complex it is. Mm. 'Cause it's not just, just don't drink.
• 35:09
  It's do anything else. Yeah. Recognize you gotta do something. Yeah. You know, there is a problem there that there, you gotta do something. Just don't drink. That's part of the answer. Yeah.
• 35:22
  The rest of the answer, I don't know, man. It's so complex. It's so complex. "Opinions vary considerably as to why the alcoholic reacts differently from normal people.
• 35:35
  We're not sure why once a certain point is reached, little can be done for him. We cannot answer the riddle.
• 35:41
  We know that while the alcoholic keeps away from drink, as he may do for months or years, he reacts much like other men.
• 35:49
  We're equally positive that once he takes any alcohol whatever into his system, something happens, both in the bodily and mental sense, which makes it virtually impossible for him to stop.
• 36:02
  The experience of any alcoholic will abundantly confirm this." Me. Yeah. I qualify.
• 36:08
  "These observations would be academic and pointless if our friend never took the first drink, thereby setting the terrible cycle in motion.
• 36:18
  Therefore, the main problem of the alcoholic centers in his mind rather than in his body. If you ask him why he started on that last bender, chances are he will offer you any one of a hundred alibis.
• 36:31
  Sometimes these excuses have a certain plausibility, but none of them really make sense in the light of the havoc an alcoholic's drinking bout creates."
• 36:41
  "The s-- They sound like the philosophy of the man who, having a headache, beats himself on the head with a hammer so he can't feel the ache.
• 36:48
  If you draw this fallacious reasoning to the attention of an alcoholic, he will laugh it off or become irritated and refuse to talk." Hmm. And, uh, let's do one more here. One- Yeah...
• 36:59
  once in a while, he may tell the truth, and the truth, strange to say, is usually he has no more idea why he took that first drink than you have.
• 37:10
  Some drinkers have excuses with which they're satisfied part of the time, but in their hearts they really do not know why they do it. Once this malady has a real hold, they are a baffled lot.
• 37:22
  There is the obsession that somehow, someday, they'll beat the game, but they often suspect that they're down for the count." Hmm. I mean, big time.
• 37:36
  I have written in the margin here, you know, just highlighting the obsession, an idea that overcomes all other ideas. Hmm.
• 37:43
  And that is fully what I felt in the, the couple moments, one that I described in that church parking lot- Hmm... of I don't know why.
• 37:53
  I don't know the why, but I do experience this obsessive thinking that ta- it just takes over- Right... unless it's supplanted with something else- Mm-hmm...
• 38:03
  which is the whole purpose of what this book is pointing us toward, back- Yeah... towards God. Yeah. Something that can fill- Hmm... uh, what, what we tried to with alcohol. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, uh, I love that.
• 38:16
  And, and I think, like, that idea, like, "Once in a while he may tell the truth, and the truth, strange to sta- say, is usually that he has no more idea why he took the first drink than you have,"
• 38:29
  I l- just love that line, because it is this sort of acknowledgement of powerlessness. You know, it's setting the stage for the powerles- powerlessness piece in there. Like, I have no clue. You know? Why'd you do it?
• 38:40
  I don't freaking know. You know, you can create all kinds of excuses and, and justifications and whatever you want to, you know, but, like, so oftentimes the, the, the true answer is, like, I don't know.
• 38:51
  I don't know any better than you know- Hmm... why I did it. Uh, but I think there is something refreshing about that, um, b- b- because, like, it, it, it opens up opportunity.
• 39:06
  Because if I don't know, then maybe I can figure it out. Maybe there's a chance that I can figure it out. And if you know, it sort of shuts the opportunity down.
• 39:16
  There's no more learning that's involved, 'cause I know why, you know? So, like, I think the cool part of that is, is just that sort of openness of expression of, like, I don't know.
• 39:27
  And it goes back to the title of this chapter. W- well, there is a solution. Yeah. Let's help you figure out what you don't know. 'Cause the other crushing component of this is that I can't solve the problem- Hmm...
• 39:40
  on my own with this same mind- Hmm... that is the root of the problem. Right. And that... A- and so I'd, I'd love to hear your take- Hmm... on that too. Like, o- okay, well,
• 39:52
  i- if perhaps I can figure it out, well, where does that end- Hmm... and where does it begin that I, I can't do it in and of myself- Mm-hmm... even reading through this book of good stuff- Mm-hmm...
• 40:05
  that I've gotta, I've got to... And do you subscribe to that- Mm-hmm... that I've got to reach out for help- Mm-hmm... rather than just plow through it on my own? Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. And I think, like...
• 40:18
  So I think personality probably plays a lot into that, like people's personality types. Um, because there may be a guy who earnestly can do it- Hmm... by himself.
• 40:29
  Um, but, but I think, like, what's not lost there is that he, he isn't by himself, he is with an other, and that other is the Lord. Hmm. And, and I think, like, that can be,
• 40:41
  um, again, for some personality types, that can be enough. Yeah. Um, but I guess that's the, th- the caveat there is that you're not actually by yourself, you are with another. Yeah.
• 40:53
  So is, th- there is still this acknowledgement that I am powerlessness, or I'm powerless and I need help. Mm-hmm. Um, and there is one that has help, or that can give me that help.
• 41:04
  Like we'll read, [laughs] that one is God. Yeah. May, may I find him now. Yeah. So I do think it, it, it, it can be possible, but I don't think it can be done, um, without at least that extension. Yeah.
• 41:16
  There's gotta be an acknowledgement of power out there, whether you're talking to somebody and they're pointing you towards it- Right... or you're going straight to the Creator, because that's- Right...
• 41:26
  who we're pointing towards anyway. Right. Yeah, and I guess, like, the other thing that sort of pops into my brain there is, like,
• 41:33
  most people who are new into the program and, and who are just recognizing themselves as alcoholics, they don't have a personal relationship with the Lord. Hmm.
• 41:42
  And so there isn't this other that they feel present with, um, you know, which does leave them isolated and by themselves, doing this by themselves. Uh, yeah, so I don't know. Maybe that's getting a little bit too far
• 41:58
  out there, but, like, maybe that's the caveat there is that without this personal relationship with, with the other that's in the room, maybe it, it literally can't be- Hmm... done by yourself.
• 42:12
  Because I do, I think there has to be that other, you know? The agnostic can do it, but they need you. [laughs] You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, they need me, they need the group, they need- Yeah...
• 42:22
  s- they do need, like, a physical other- Yeah... that's there with them. Um, but maybe if you were, like, born in the church, raised in the church, loved the Lord all your life,
• 42:33
  and you've fallen into this pattern of alcoholism, maybe there is an opportunity, because you s- you, you do have that relationship with other.
• 42:39
  But wouldn't that relationship with other just drive you out, like outward facing? Hmm. You know, you'd tap into the missional aspect of it- Hmm...
• 42:46
  and it's like, okay, yeah, this is my cross that I need to bear, uh, witness to other people with. So I don't know. Maybe that's... I don't know. Like most things, whatever. Like, I don't know. Whatever.
• 42:58
  That's, that's the premise of this whole freaking- [laughs]... discussion here. Brad's will never be a full answer. I don't know, Evan. Answers are like, there is no full answer. Right. I do not know.
• 43:06
  Um, all right, yeah, that's a good place to stop this week, I think. That's perfect. Um, that's good. Yeah. Like, I, I don't know.
• 43:16
  I think the most remarkable thing in there, again, is just, like, that reminder of, of who I was as a, as a drinker. Uh, and that's always good to be reminded of.
• 43:26
  Um, but then also that there can be comfort in not knowing- Hmm... why we do what we do. Mm-hmm. You know? And that that's not an unusual experience. In fact, that is one of the commonalities- Yeah, for sure...
• 43:39
  when we get here, that we share. Yeah. Um, 'cause, uh, you know, that w- that would be a real head-scratcher if that was just my experience. Oh, sure. But, but it's like freaking everybody has that experience.
• 43:50
  Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that would be very lonely. Yeah. [laughs] If everybody else had it all figured out and you were still just like, "I don't know why." Ugh. You know? All right, well, always a pleasure. Likewise.
• 44:02
  Go team. En- enjoyed it. Absolutely. Have fun. If you're out there, give us some feedback. Let us know what you think. S- smash that like button and then leave that comment. Let's go. Let us know how we're doing.
• 44:11
  All right. What can we do better? Please. How can, how can we better serve you? Absolutely. We wanna know. Inquiring minds wanna know. All right. Always a pleasure, man. Later. [upbeat music] Hey, thanks for listening.
• 44:24
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• 44:35
  Have a great one.