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The Woman King with Oyeronke Oyebanji · The Bechdel Cast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: On the Bechdecast, the questions ask if movies have women
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Beast start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Hey, Jamie, Hey Caitlin, it's me your general of the
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: army that you're in, and also your mom.
• 0:26
  Speaker 3: I mean, just so you know, what is a movie
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: if not about mothers and daughters? Gusts O, Kaitlyn. I
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: to truly dream of the day where you say turn
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: around and then you cut my shoulder and pull a
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: shark's tooth out. That's how we'll know, yeah, that this
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: was really meant to be, that this was some real
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: second act shit going on. Yeah, yeah, wait for it,
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: wait for Yes. I will keep my shark tooth in
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: place until the day comes, thank you, but I will
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: be ready. Great. Welcome to the Bechdel Cast.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: My name is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Drante,
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: and this is our show where we examine movies through
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel test simply as
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: a jumping off point. Yes, which of course is a
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, originally found
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: in her comic Dykes to Watch Out for a classic,
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: intended as just sort of like a bit a joke,
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: and it has since been used as this media metric
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: that has many different versions. Yes, ours is as follows.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: Two people of a marginalized gender must have names. They
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: must speak to each other about something other than a man.
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: Such as a conversation about mother tearing a shark's tooth
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: out of her daughter's shoulder. That that's a really excellent
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: pass because those characters have names and that's a very
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: impactful exchange of dialogue.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: Only reason we say that, as we've been saying for
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: years on the show, is because there's so many movies
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: that people will be like, well, it does pass, and
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: it's like oh, waitress being like hi, and then Nicole
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: Kibben's like hi, and they're like hmm, what was that?
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: And then anyways, and then Nicole Kidman says, we come
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: to this place.
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: For imagine and that's impactful. Yes, that's true impact.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: So that's our show now, you know.
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: And today we have a very popularly requested episode. I
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: think we've been getting requests for this movie since the
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: second the trailer dropped, which true makes a lot of sense,
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: and we're very excited to be covering it. It's The
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: Woman King Day on the Bechdel Cast. We're here, we
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: did it, and we have a wonderful guest.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: We certainly do who we found through a piece that
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: she wrote on NPR entitled The Woman King Speaks loud
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: and clear to this jerry and feminist. She works in
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: global health. She's a senior fellow at the Aspen Institute.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: It's oy Oye Banji oh.
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: Go Hi, Gathlene, Hi, Jamie. Really really really thrilled to
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: be here. We're so excited to have you same here.
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: I mean, it's my first time recording a podcast, so
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: I'm looking forward to seeing how I do or hearing
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: how I do.
• 3:23
  Speaker 5: But really lovely to be here.
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: You're going to do great, already doing great. Can you
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: tell us a little bit before we talk about the well,
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: I guess this kind of goes into the discussion of
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: how did this piece come about for you, the MPR piece.
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: It's a very interesting question, and I'm not sure if
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: to give the honest or not honest view, But I mean,
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: obviously the Woman King came out and there was a
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: lot of chatter on social media and everywhere about this
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: movie about black women. And then I got a request
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: from someone at the Aspen Institute to ask if I
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: would be interested in writing about The Woman King. And
• 4:04
  Speaker 4: I thought it was a good way to watch the
• 4:07
  Speaker 4: movie because I would usually watch movies like two years
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: after they've been released and like the last one amongst
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: my friends to watch movies. But this time, I mean, obviously,
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: there was a lot of chatter about The Woman King.
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: There was a lot of three people were extremely excited.
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: My friends in Nigeria couldn't see it at the time
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: because it was showing in cinema here in the UK
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: and London, where I leave, but not in Nigeria yet,
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: so people were pushing me from home to go set
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: immediately and tell them about it. And of course the
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: opportunity to write about it came up. So everything just
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: you know, jelled together into one. And then I found
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: myself going into the cinema one night after work, again
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: quite unusual of me. I would usually wait till the weekend,
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: but I couldn't wait till the weekend for this one.
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: And then I.
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: Decided to yep, I went on, watched the movie, loved it,
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: and indeed wrote a piece about it.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: And we loved it, and we loved the movie and
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: and we're all in agreement that the woman King rocks.
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: It's really good. Kaitlyn, what's your I mean, I gets like, yeah,
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: what's your history with the movie? Other than I think
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: we both saw it the week it came out. That's
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: pretty much it.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: I went with a group of friends of the cast,
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: such as Sammy Junio and Daniel Perez. Awesome, and we
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: just went together and we had a blast. And I'm
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: so happy that it's on Netflix now and is very accessible,
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: and I've watched it a couple of times since then.
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: How about you, Jamie. I bravely went alone, I was,
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: which is how I got a but I thank you
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: so much. But no, I did see it shortly after
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: it came out. It was It's really good theater experience
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: if you like go at night and everyone's fucking pumped
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: to be there. Oh yeah, it is. To quote one
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: of the greatest film critics of our time, Harry's, the
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: movie felt like a movie. It certainly did. It really
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: felt like a go to the theater type film and
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: there's no getting around it. But yeah, no, I thought
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: it was a really really fun well not I mean,
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: I guess fun is kind of a but there are
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: moments in this movie that are really fun. Like there's
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: such a huge range of emotion and I can't I
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: kind of as I was leaving originally, I'm like, I
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: can't remember the last time. I mean, there's a lot
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: of feelings of I can't remember the last time or
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: the first time that I've seen a movie quite like this,
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: but even just a big sweeping historical epic, I just
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: hadn't seen one in a really long time, and there's
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: just there's so much going on. I'm really excited to
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: talk about it. And I was aware. I feel like,
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: because this is such a recent movie, there were kind
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: of two waves of discourse that surrounded this movie, and
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: I before researching this episode, I was only really aware
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: of one. I was definitely well aware of Gina Prince
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: bythewould Be and the film in general being shut out
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: of the Oscars, and the very very needed discussion around
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: black artists in general, but especially black women being shut
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: out of big institutional awards shows like the Oscars. But
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: there was also a historical conversation that it didn't come
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: across my feed on mister Elon's website. But I'm excited
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: to talk about it after we talk about the movie
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: because I think there's a lot of yeah, I guess
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: just speaking to like the historical epic of it all,
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: there's I feel like there's I mean, I can't speak
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: to this specifically because it's like historical epics don't tend
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: to be like my faves. This is kind of a
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: huge outlier, but I feel like they're largely considered to
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: be like truth adjacent maybe but often right not.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: And we're also about to record an episode on r
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: r R which takes fright yes billion liberties with historical accuracy. Yeah,
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: this movie movie follows history a little more closely, but
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: also takes the Titanic approach, where it's like this happened,
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: but let's introduce some characters who didn't exist, right.
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: Well, I'm excited to talk about it because yeah, well
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: we'll get into that in a little bit. But anyways,
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: I saw the movie. I really really enjoyed it, and
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: it's just as fun to watch at home. I don't know. Yeah,
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: I'm also excited that it's on Netflix and everyone can
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: watch it. If you haven't watched it, get your shit together,
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: serious time to watch it. Yeah.
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: So I think it's just on Netflix in the US
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: by the way, Oh is.
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: It not in the UK?
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: No, it's not in the UK, certainly not in Nigeria.
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: So yeah, that's a real shame. Yeah, it's not freely
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: available on Netflix for the rest of the world.
• 8:46
  Speaker 5: Yet.
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: Well gustrating, I know, I know, Okay, we were just
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: being US centric. Sorry about it? Classic American bad.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: Well shall I do the recap? Yes, and we'll go
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: from there.
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: I'm John Boyega. I have to give you permission to
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: do anything because I am man.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: I am mister king, and yes you may, Oh, thank
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: you so much.
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: Oh why do we need him? Anyways? I mean, we
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: need John Boyega, but why do we need kings? But
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: why do we need kings? Exactly?
• 9:21
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: I will place a trigger warning for rape and sexual
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: assault here at the top of the recap. The story
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: takes place in West Africa. I believe the year is
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: eighteen twenty three. We get some voiceover with backstory about
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: the Kingdom of Dahome and it's new king, Gezo. Dahome's enemy,
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: the Oyo Empire, has joined forces with the Mahi people,
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: and together they have been raiding Dahomie villages and selling
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: captives to European slavers.
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: Right away, like right as the movie started, I don't know,
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: I was kind of struck by like there is like
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: I know that Star Wars doesn't own the crawl, but
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: like there is like a historical crawl to give the
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: audience just an idea of like where we are and
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: who we're with. And I feel like we see a
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: lot of big movies that take place within this time period,
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: and I think it does like speak to how few
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: movies have taken place in Africa whatsoever, because it's like, yeah,
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: as an audience member, I super super needed that context.
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: But if you're seeing a movie that is placed in
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: a similar time period and it's you know, like a
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: Jane Austen adaptation, they're just like here we are where
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: we are, assuming we know where you are, because this
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: is the history we prioritize teaching for sure.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: Yes, So we learn about Dahomie villages being raided, but
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: the Dahomie have a powerful weapon to fight back, which
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: is an elite army of female soldiers called the Agogi
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: led by General Naniska.
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: It's so exciting to see them appear. At the beginning
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: my theater I was in, they were like everyone was
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: so bumped.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: It's very exciting because the movie opens on General Naniska,
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: who's played by Viola Davis, and her Agoji warriors attacking
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: a group of Mahi men and freeing the people who
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: were being held captive. We meet a few of the
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: other warriors, like Amenza played by Shila a Team Amazing,
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: and Izogi played by Lashana Lynch. They all return to
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: the Kingdom where we meet Now played by Tussobidu, a
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: young woman whose parents are trying to arrange a marriage
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: for her, but she does not want to be an
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: obedient wife who puts up with a husband's abuse. Because
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: of that, she is seen as worthless and insolent, so
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: her father gives her to the King.
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: I learned when I was doing some historical research. So most,
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: I mean the majority of these characters, I think, with
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: the exception of the King and one of the I
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: think Portuguese Slave Traders is based on a real person,
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: but most of the Agoji women are based on like
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: sort of an amalgamation. But Naniska and now we were
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: Those are like references to actual Egoji warriors who existed
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: and were seen, uh you know, being really good at war.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: Like I.
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: Was like, I wait, I don't know how to talk
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: about military stuff. I don't know what the fuck I'm saying.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: Really good at war, that's correct?
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: I mean, say, like the Agoji, if they're really good
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: at one thing, it's it's war and making me go, ah,
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: it's exciting.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: So Zogi take now we under her wing. She shows
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: her around the palace and now he joins the group
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: of women who will train and basically like audition to
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: become warriors of the Agoji. Meanwhile, Oyo soldiers led by
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: their new General Oba Ade played by Jimmy Adukoya, who
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: is particularly vicious. He discovers the men that Naniska and
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: her warriors killed earlier, and General Oba is not happy
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: about this, especially that his men were killed by women,
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: because he's mister patriarchy.
• 13:43
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: Back in Dahome, we meet King Gezo played by John Boyega,
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: which is great is for I think everyone and our eyeballs. Yeah, yes,
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: where thrill. He meets with his counsel and they are
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: deciding how to proceed with their enemies if they should
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: go to war or not, and Naniska and Amenza are like, hey,
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: we should stop participating in the slave trade and focus
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: on harvesting and selling palm oil because the Kingdom of
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: Dahome tends to sell their enemy captives to European slavers. Meanwhile,
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: Nawi and the others learn about the Agoji, how they're
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: fierce warriors. They are not allowed to take husbands or
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: bear children, but they will be respected, their opinions will
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: be heard, and we do see them being like revered
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: by the community.
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: Yes, that is something though that I feel like, and
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: this is like maybe getting a little ahead, but I'm
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: interested in what you both think about it because I
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: think that, like that was one of the historical issues
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: that when I read more about it, I was like, oh, yeah,
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: like it's referenced in the movie that it like mainly
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: through Nawi that you know, obviously it's unfair that they
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: are prevented from having relationships outside of being warriors because
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: we see their you know, male counterparts having all having
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: not just relationships and families, but like access to alcohol
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: and just stuff that like they're doing the same job
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: and not being treated in the same way. But I
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: feel like John Boyega's character, who is a real man
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: kin Gayzo like kind of skirts around criticism of that
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: in certain ways because like I, historically I guess that
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: every single person that was a part of the EGOJI
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: would be considered his wife and like a third tier wife,
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: and that that is why they were so controlled in
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: how they were allowed to interact with the world. It
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: was still like an emphasis on control, and it's it's
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: weird because it's like that is present in this story.
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: But I but the first time I saw it, at least,
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: it didn't register to me as like something that was emphasized.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: I don't know, Yeah, I mean, I have a whole
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: long spiel that we'll get to about the double standard
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: that Nawe does challenge, but nothing changes and I imagine
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: like it didn't change historically and that's why. But she
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: does comment on it, and then there's a whole other
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: conversation to be had about how like the Agogee view
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: love and emotion as weakness. And you know, that's a
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: very familiar concept both in like real life and media,
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: but it's often, at least in media, it'll be something
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: that is traditionally associated with male warriors like the Jedi
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: from Star Wars, who are like, oh, from Star Wars, yes, yes, yes, yes,
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: ever heard of it? From where I was trying to
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: think of the name the Jedi. It's the the Jedi Order,
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: which I couldn't think of, so then I said, from
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: Star Wars, and then it sounded like a fool, So
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: you know, the Jedi from Star Wars.
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: It was helpful.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: Who I think are except for like the newer crop
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: of Star Wars movies, the Jedi Order have largely been men.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: And then also like from Game of Thrones, there's the
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: Night's Watch or whatever they're called, the guys who like
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: guard the wall against the ice people. I've seen that show.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: I just don't remember what anything is called.
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean I feel like that is that
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: is I mean, obviously, I don't know, maybe not obviously.
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: I am not a veteran. I have not served, I
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: have not gone to war.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: Okay, you're not good at war, you would say.
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: I would say, I am probably would be uniquely bad
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: at war, and I don't dislike that about myself. But yeah,
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: I mean that is like sort of a general training thing,
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: like repressing your emotions, which I think is like addressed
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: to some extent in this narrative by like, even though
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: General Naniska feels that it is and I think to
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: some extent it is necessary for her to do her job,
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: like to compartmentalize constantly, but you can also at least
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: get to see how it affects her. She clearly has
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: what I would say is PTSD from combat from trauma
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: that she has experienced that we'll talk about, And so
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: I was at least grateful that I don't know, I
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: feel like most well, obviously, most war movies surround men
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: and white men specifically, and you see all this trauma
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: taking place, but you don't ordinarily see how it affects
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: them down the line or gives that any sort of
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: serious consideration of, of course, how that's going to affect your
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: mental health and just how you interact with the world.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: So I do like seeing a. I mean, I guess
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: General Niniska she's like an active general, like and how
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: her career has affected her, because I'm always just like,
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: we gotta get we like I don't know in the US,
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: and it feels like almost everywhere veterans do not have
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: access to mental health services that they need, and so
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: when there are movies about war, I'm like, let's let's
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: show that.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: Why did General Niska go to therapy? I'm just kidding.
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's actually that was going to be my main
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: point of the I'm like, you know what really took
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: me out of it is that we're generals in eighteen
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: twenty didn't go to see my therapist.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, explain that pretty messed up anyway.
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: So I Yeah, when I was watching the movie, one
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: thing that really struck me, well, firstie I should have
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: said probably about my history to it was in watching
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: I tried to reflect on life then in the eighteen
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: hundreds and life now in twenty twenty two, which is
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: when I watched it. And you know the bit about
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: women the Agoja women not being allowed to marry or
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: fall in love. That has changed in some ways, but
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: there are still some very tricky policies. There's still affect
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: many women, especially women that are in the army or
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: in the police. In Nigeria, for example, women in the
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: police have to seek permission from their superiors before they
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: get married. Now men don't have to do that, you know,
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: a man can just get married and do whatever. An
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: unmarried woman in the police force has to actually seek
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: permission from her supervisors. And it's just one of those
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: lots that I found I know still, I know I
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: found out that I was like in twenty twenty two,
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: you know, and it's one of those things that people
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: don't talk enough about.
• 20:55
  Speaker 5: You know.
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: It has become sort of the state of school until
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: you're told that when you're joining the police, you know,
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: you have the SIK permission, and so that's okay, but
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: it's not okay in any way. And it's just one
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: of the ways that discrimination is shown. And it's one
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: of the ways, or one of the reasons, in my opinion,
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: why there are way less women fighting wars.
• 21:14
  Speaker 5: I agree with you, Jamie.
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: I mean, wars are not my thing, but there are
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: several women and young girls that want to join the
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: army or the police force, or you know, go to war,
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: fight wars or protect their countries. But when you think
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: about the discrimination they face, and this varies from one
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: spectrum to another, but when you think about the fact
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: that you have the seek permission to get married and
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: your male counterparts do not have to do that, and
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: that's totally discouraging and it is unfortunate.
• 21:47
  Speaker 5: I would say, but yeah, yeah.
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: God, that is so upsetting to hear that that is
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: still the case now that I mean, yeah, I wow,
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: learning learning upsetting things on the Bexel Cafe. Anyways, I
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: was just got to see that. It didn't I don't know,
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: it didn't undercut what a powerful leader she was. To
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: see that these years of trauma on the battlefield and
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: outside just interacting with these slave traders has had an
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: effect on her.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: Right, Yes, And that comes across clearly in the film,
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: because it's Viola Davis.
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: She's amazing, got all over the place.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: Okay, So we've just learned about the Egoji and the
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: sort of like freedoms and restrictions that they have to
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: live by. Then Nawi has a conversation with Naniska in
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: the bathing pool where they kind of like size each
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: other up and they both think that the other is
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: arrogant and foolish. Then it's time for Nawi and the
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: others to start training to become warriors.
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: Okay. Did anyone think about the Mulan montage when they
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: were watching this? I was thinking about it the whole
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: time I had it. I was humming the song A Man,
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: a Woman, Woman, King.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: So there's the training montage where Nawi is learning and improving,
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: but she also tends to talk back, and she challenges
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: authority and tradition. She pulls a prank involving gunpowder Naniska.
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: Hilarious still hilarious war prank.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: And Izogi is still mentoring her and trying to keep
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: her in line. Nawi reveals that she acts out so
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: that Naniska will notice her, because you know, she's trying
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: to stand out above the crowd. And what is that
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: from stand out?
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, it's a Goofy movie. Right, Oh yes, yes, god,
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: our brands are so broken.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we just talked about that. Yeah, I cannot remember anything, okay.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: So she's trying to like stand out above the crowd
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: max goof style. And there's also a mention of the
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: woman king, a position that has not been held by
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: anyone in the Kingdom of Dahomey for many years.
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: And of course, when we in the theater hear them
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: say the title of the movie, we begin cheering. We
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: stand up, we applaud as one does when they say,
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: you know, I think this is everything everywhere all at once,
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: and then everyone stands in cheers. It's the most famous
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: scene in that movie.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: Or you know when Meryl Streep is like, I have doubt,
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: I have such doubt.
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: Wait, but she does. She does also another Viola Davis
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: classic performance. I think she won her or one of
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: her She wanted to Oscar for that. I don't know
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: how many oscars she has. That's a question for another day.
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: But she did have such doubts.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: She did, certainly. So there's mention of the Woman King,
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: and it's speculated that Naniska may one day be named
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: the Woman King. And then soon after the Oyo General
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: Oba shows up with his soldiers expecting a tribute to
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: be paid to him. When then we learned via flashback
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: that many years ago he took Naniska as prisoner and
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: repeatedly raped her for a period of time. King Gezo
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: reluctantly pays them this tribute so that Dahomie can continue
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: using a port for trading which the Oyo have taken
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: control of, and part of that payment is twenty Agoji warriors,
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: one of whom is not we we cut to this
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: port where two men from Brazil show up. Santo played
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: by Hero, finds Tiffin, who sucks he's bad.
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: He gets drowned in shallow water at the end, which
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: is pretty thrilling. Yeah, it's very cathartic. It's kind of
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: that rock and then fortunately not historically accurate, but fun,
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: fun at the movies.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: Oh, we come to this place for magic. We come
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: to this place to see slavers be.
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: A Chorgnizer get drowned.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, with him is Malik played by Jordan Bulger.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: Parentheses hot. So they show up at this port which
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: is used by Slavers to traffic people who have been
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: sold into slavery. Naniska also shows up to the port
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: with some of her warriors. Oba thinks it's the tribute
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: being paid, but surprise, Naniska is like, fuck you, here's
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: some decapitated heads. That's your tribute.
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: We're cheering again. It's exciting.
• 27:06
  Speaker 5: That was so powerful.
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: That's amazing.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: Then there's a fight between Naniska and Oba, and then
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: the Agogi escape and because of this war has been
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: declared between the kingdoms of Dahome and o Yo.
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: I mean, I know we're going to talk about this
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: in a bit, but the fight scenes are fucking incredible. Yeah,
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: they're so good. And again I'm not a war movie person,
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: but these fight scenes are so ugh. It's so good.
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: I've read about how the actors trained and it seemed
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: intense good for them. Everyone is ripped, shredded and killing people.
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: It's it's thrilling, yeah for sure.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: Okay, So war has been declared, but before the next battle,
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: Nawi runs into Malik while he's bathing in the river
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: parentheses hot again, we learn that he is half Dahoma.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: His mother was from there. She recently passed away and
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: it was her dying wish that he visited her homeland,
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: which is part of why he's there. So then Malik
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: and Santo go to the palace to watch the agoji
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: trainees do their final test, where Nawi wins first place,
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: so she's like the best trainee. She and others officially
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: become a goji.
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: Which again it's like they're done. That's all done with
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: the King's permission, like they are existing at his leisure basically.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: Right later, when Naui's wounds from the test like obstacle
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: course thing, when her wounds are being tended.
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: To women, King, you must be woman, keep going.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: Naniska notices a scar on Nawi's arm and she's like, oh, yeah,
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: I've had that since I was a baby at the orphanage,
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: and Naniska's like, what, you're an orphan and she has
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: a very peculiar reaction because we learn that Nawi is
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: Naniska's daughter because about nineteen years ago, Naniska gave birth
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: because she got pregnant from being raped, and Amnza gave
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: the baby away to missionaries who were passing through, assuming
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: that they would never cross paths with this baby your
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: person again, but it turns out it's Nawi and she's
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: right there. But they're both like, no, she's probably not
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: my daughter.
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: But they're in denial. What are the chances? And you're like,
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: this is a historical of course she's your daughter.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: So then now we sees Malik again. They're flirting, they're
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: into each other, but again the Agoji are not allowed
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: to canoodle with men. Romantic love is thought to make
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: them weak. And again nowI challenges this, but she can't
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: really do anything about it. And then also Malik tells
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: her that he overheard that General guy Oba planning his
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: next attack, so Nawi goes to tell this to Naniska.
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: She also takes his weapon, which.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: Is like ooh, parentheses hot.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: Yes, So hot people being hot together.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: It's what the movies are kind of all about.
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: Isn't it. That's why we come to this place.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: So first of all, Naniska is like, you shouldn't have
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: been talking to a man. And then she tells Nawi
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: that she was captured and raped and in pressgnated, and that
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: she gave birth to a girl, and that before Amenza
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: took the baby away, she made a cut on the
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: back of the baby's arm and pressed a shark tooth
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: into the cut, hence Naui's scar, confirming that Nawi is
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: Naniska's daughter.
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: I had to end there such I was so, I
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: was like, you had such doubt? No did it? I know?
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: I was just like, how has it not gotten so infected?
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: How is it their tooth's just still in there? I
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: don't know how that maybe that, I like, I'm not
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: a doubt. I'm both not good at war or not
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: good at medicin, But I'm like, could that happen? Could
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: you have a shark tooth in your arm? For I
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: guess people can like have like trapnel and like, yeah,
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: just I.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: Would have thought it would fall pop right out. But
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: babies maybe babies, heel really fast, and it just kind
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: of healed over.
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: I don't know, we're so good at we see are scholars,
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: real women in stem action baby sustained sharp tooth. We
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: don't know, Ron, can you work in global health? This
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: is right?
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: Probably know? They answered every health question I know.
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: And that was another really interesting part about the movie.
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: Every you know, the scene where I'm sorry to jump off,
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: the scene where they were cutting themselves and putting blood
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: into the bowl as the means of initiating them into
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: the agogees, And all I could think about was, oh
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: my god, that's tetanus, that's hepatitis.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: The same because they're sharing a blade, they're like using time.
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: You know, they're all leading. You don't know where anyone's
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: come from. But yeah, yeah, I tried very much to
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: separate my science and health the brain from the movie
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: because I was freaking out.
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, same. I like to imagine you Ranka entering
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: the scene and being like, look, I know what you
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: think you're doing. This is actually really dangerous.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: It's not sanitary.
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: We can do this symbolically, surely, right.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: So, Nawi has just learned that Naniska is her mother,
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: and they are both very overcome with emotion, especially Nawi, because.
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: It is acting. They are acting, and.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: Then Nawi runs off crying. The next day, Naniska starts
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: to plan and later launches a counter attack against Oba
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: and the Oya warriors. The Agoji are victorious, but during
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: the attack, some of the warriors, including Nawi and Isogi,
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: are taken prisoner and brought to the port to be sold.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: They attempt to escape, but Isogi is shot and she
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: dies in Nawi's arms and cry cry cry.
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: Yes, very very sad.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, their friendship is just so wonderful and really, I mean.
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: It's like, I know that that is classic the movies,
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: but as I really didn't think anyone in the main
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: cast was going to die at any point because they
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: were so good at war, and the fact that they
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: did it to Maria Rambo of all people sick twisted.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: They're not right, yes, okay. So meanwhile, back at the palace,
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: Naniska is like, okay, they're these warriors who have been captured.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: We need to go rescue them, and King Gezo is like, no,
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: it's not worth it. So Naniska decides to disobey him,
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: and she heads off to the port. She was planning
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: to go alone, but many of her fellow warriors follow
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: and join her back at the port. Malik buys Nawi
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: to save her, and when Naniska and the other warriors
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: show up at the port for the rescue mission, now
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: we joins them in battle, they all of the people
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: who have been captured. They fight back against the slavers,
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: and there is a final showdown between Naniska and Oba
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: in which she kills him another very cathartic death.
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: Yes, the movie feeling like a movie.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: The Agoji returned to their kingdom, having defeated the o
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: Yo and their reign over Dahomie. King Gezo commends Naniska
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: and the Agoji for their victory and he.
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: Says woman King again, he says, you were the woman king.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: And he says we are not going to be complicit
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: in the slave trade anymore, which is not historically accurate oopsies,
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: not even close, but in the movie, that's what happens.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: And then there's a tender moment between mother and daughter
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: between Naniska and Nawi, and the movie ends with the
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: people of Dahomi celebrating their victory.
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: The end.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's take a quick break and we will
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: come back to discuss and we're back.
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: Woman King, all right, ran Kay, is there anywhere you
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: would like to start? What's jumping out for you?
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: I think the relationship between is okay a Navii is
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: something that really struck me. And I know I said
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: during the week up like when she died that was
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: I had tears in white eyes. Again, it's a movie,
• 36:34
  Speaker 4: I know, but it just felt so real. I mean
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: that jumped out at me because I really loved that.
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: He didn't love sort of relationship. Well, I don't believe
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: in it, but it's how I grew up and how
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: many Nigerian and African women grow up in the sense
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: that your mother's and your aunties, and I mean every
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: old the woman is a mother and auntie first of all.
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: So whether it's your mother's friend or whoever, your mother's
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: and your aunties really love you. But they show you
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: by being hard with you. You know, they show you
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: by being really strict with you. But deep in their
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: somewhere they're ready to fight and go to any war
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: for you and with is your gear. And now you
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: could tell that is your gay really really loved now
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: we and that now we completely admired is a gay
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: and it was just such a beautiful relationship to watch
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: and with every since I could feel, you know, there
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: were loads of unsaid words, but you could see from
• 37:41
  Speaker 4: their emotions, from the official expressions, from you know, what's
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: the first rule of war? Always obey is a gay? Like?
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: I found that so powerful. It was like a deep
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: connection between both of them, and so I think throughout
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: the movie, I always look forward to scenes that Hadsi
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: gay and Naui, whether actually congratulating her or being firmed
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: with her, which was most of it, or sadly when
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: is Okay died in NAB's arms.
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: Their friendship was really really I think, like well done.
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: And yeah, it's like because it's so devastating when is
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: Okay dies because I didn't see it coming. And also like, yeah,
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: you've built You've spent so much time and they've like
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: clearly like learned from each other. I think, like kind
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: of their last moment together, Nawi, what is she what
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: does she like? She moves a bone? Ooh, it's really
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: difficult to watch, but it's like they are just like
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: so in it together and like in it collectively, and
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: it's so like one of the things I really liked
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: about this movie is obviously it is a woman centric plot,
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: but you get to see so many different kinds of
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: women and so many different personalities interacting. You get to
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: see it across generations. You get to see relationship between
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: women that are I think more like Nawi and Izzoki's
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: relationship is like pretty warm as time goes on, and
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: you get to see like a really warm friendship. And
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: then with Naniska and Amenza, you see a different side
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: of Naniska with a Menza than you do when she
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: is being the general. Like, you just get to see
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: a lot of different facets and types of relationships and
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: they all felt very like grounded and earned and yeah.
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: You also you also get to see jealousy, which was
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: quite the mix between the queen whose name I don't remember,
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: but King Ghizzo's wife.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: Yes Chante.
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: She just did not want Naniska to be there. She
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: didn't want her to be the woman king. She didn't
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: want her to quote unquote make decisions for King Ghizo.
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: She didn't want Naniska to authority. You know, when Naniska
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: was suggesting that the da who made people stop engaging
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: in slave trade, and you know, she thought Naniska was
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: confusing the King. Well, it was just very interesting to
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: see one end of love and support and comforts amongst
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: women and then the other end of jealousy and some spies.
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: Right. Yeah.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: I like when there's a character who I don't remember
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: his name, I kept calling him mister Purple. Oh, I
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: liked also queer icon mister Purple.
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: Mister Purple crushed it.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: He said something like, oh, yeah, the king respects Naniska
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: because she fought for him in the coup.
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: What did you do? You hid in a cupboard? And
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, But I think that like that
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: dynamic between the two of them is so it's really
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: interesting because it's like, I don't know, I've been thinking
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: a lot recently, which is dangerous, but about how like
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: through history, how women have had access to power and
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: I guess having to like talk about power as a
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: neutral term just for simplicity, but like, I think between
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: those two characters, you have like probably the two available
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: routes for women in this culture, as it's presented in
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: the movie, to gaining any sort of power or influence
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: over what happens in their lives. And yeah, Chante gains
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: it through marriage, which I think I mean, and even
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: we've been guilty of this over the years, Like modern
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: feminists don't always they're like, well she just it's like, well,
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: there's literally kind of the only option, nothing you can do.
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: And it does seem like Shante wants a seat at
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: the table in terms of decision making and resents that
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: General Meniska takes that role, which I think, honestly, based
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: on what we see, General Niniska probably should be at
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: the table more so than Chante. But then it's also like, well,
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: why can there only be one woman at the table
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: that has everything to do with the patriarchal structure that
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: they exist inside of. And I liked, I felt like that.
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: I don't know, I mean, I think you could argue
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: that Chante is made out to seem a little silly,
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: but she does I think by the end like get her.
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: I don't know, I guess I'm curious what do you
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: both think about that? Like, because at the end, kind
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: of the last we see of her is being upset
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: that Naniska has gotten the seat at the table that
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: she has not been. We've seen King Gezo speak pretty
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: negatively of her. And also I mean there's like that
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: one there one exchange where he you knows. I don't
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: remember which villain, but I think maybe the Portuguese guy.
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: They're having a discussion and the villain references, well, Chante
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: told me that this was the place is Santo? Okay,
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: so they're having I'm like, he gets dround. I don't
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: have to remember his name. But in any case, King
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: Gezol has a very negative reaction to hearing that Chante
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: has asserted herself in any way, shape or form, and
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: says that she will be punished for having done that,
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: and like.
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: He said something like she does not speak for me,
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: and she will be punished for thinking that she does.
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: Right. Yeah, So I think like it's it is obviously
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: like the filmmakers and the writers are well aware that
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: Chante is also in a very limited situation with what
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: she is able to do. But I don't know, I
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: kind of wish that we got a little more of her,
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: because yeah, I think that like clearly, like the movie
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: has a clear and necessary agenda to uplift Naniska, but
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: it felt like a few times they took jabs at
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: Shante in order to be like, well, clearly Naniska deserves power,
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: and it's like, hmmm, yes, but why do we have
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: to kick Shante to make that point true?
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: True? But then Chante was one of dozens of wives.
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: I think he did have many. Probably technically general Niska
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: is a wife too, but.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: Not in the same capacity because it's referenced that the
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: agoji or virgin like, they're not like engaging in like
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: sexual activity with the king, So they're like relationship with him,
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: but in a far different capacity.
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: They are both completely at like under his control, but yeah,
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: in different in different ways to do it. I didn't
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: realize Angelie Kicho is in this movie when she plays
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: one of.
• 44:32
  Speaker 4: The wo I only realized the third time. The third
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: time I watched it, that's when I realized that she
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: was one of the members of the King's cabinet.
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: Loved that, yo. I know, I know, she's credited as
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: the Munion, which I don't know what that means, but
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: I kept saying it as the Minion, and I was like, Wow,
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: what a crossover.
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: There's gonna be your minion. I'll bring up minions water
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: as well.
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: Right with the minions work for the woman King?
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: You know, Well, it's because one of the people who
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: conceived of the story for this movie's name is Maria
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: Bellow below.
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: Oh, oh my god, ron Kay, We're so sorry that
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: we have a minions problem on the Sheld, but millions
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: tend to count. It's just we're just very cultured.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: All this to say is that I love that the
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: there's such a strong emphasis and focus in this movie
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: on female relationships of many different types. We see a
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: large spectrum of what a relationship between women can look like.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: We already talked about the friendship between Nawi and Izogi,
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: as well as the friendship between Naniska and Amenza. I
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: was also getting some queer undertones there. I think you
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: could easily read that as a close friendship, but I
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: was getting some vibes.
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: Oh that they are loving. You know, fiction dot net
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: is like popping off with a lot of these Yeah.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying anything new here, but I just want
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: to say I too felt the vibes.
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: I guess, like, going back to Chantae and Niska, I'd
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: like I liked when the women of this story were
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: in conflict with each other, because that's like a very
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: clear grounded conflict for the time and place that this
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: movie takes place. And even with like Naniska and Nawi,
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: they're in conflict for almost the entire movie, definitely, But
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: it is like it's so so well written and directed
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: and performed that there's like always a feeling of mutual
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: respect and they're basically like challenging each other. And by
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: the end, it's like Naniska, if she hadn't seen Naui
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: being little miss rebel the whole damn movie, she wouldn't
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: have done what she did at the end. And it's
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: just I like it. I like it.
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: I was going to say, you know the scene where
• 47:00
  Speaker 4: Naniska took the decapacitated heads to the or your empire
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: and then she asked them to leave, and then now
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: we went back to save her, but instead of a
• 47:11
  Speaker 4: thank you, she got told off. And you know, it
• 47:15
  Speaker 4: was very interesting because I kept to andream, did Naniska
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: really feel upset with Nawi or was that some again
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: interesting form of hiding your emotions and you know, deep
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: inside you're proud and you're happy and you're grateful, but
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: you have to show the powerful general Mantra you know
• 47:37
  Speaker 4: you're upset for this disobedience. So yeah, that was quite
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: interesting in terms of that relationship.
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: Their dynamics felt like between mother and well yeah, who
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: we learn our mother and daughter of your shark tooth wound.
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: It felt like, I mean, there are a lot of
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: moments in this movie and I feel like, generally positive,
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: we'll get back to it, but that felt like a
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: very kind of modern dynamic, even though it's clearly rooted
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: in history, but the generational divide between the two of
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: them felt pretty like modern and easy to relate to.
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: If you've ever had a parent that felt they had
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: to push down their emotions in order to navigate the
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: world more effectively, or especially you know, in marginalized communities,
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: and I mean, I'm thinking about, honestly, like my own
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: Irish Catholic parents, where it's there's a lot of you know,
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: just compartmentalizing and feeling that that is the only way
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: to navigate the world successfully. And it's clear that Naniska
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: has internalized that and that it has served her well
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: in what she does. It's not like the movie makes
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: this out to be, you know, an inferior way of
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: navigating the world. But I love that you have Nawi
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: as an alternative to that. Where Nawi wants the freedom
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: to feel things freely, she wants to have relationships if
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: she wants to have relationships and it's I mean what
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: it's she's she's trying to have it all, but unfortunately,
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: which is like difficult.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: Right. Well, one thing I was gonna say is that
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: it felt like before they knew they were mother and daughter,
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: they had a very mother daughter relationship dynamic already. Where
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: like to your point, Ranke, when Naniska is upset with
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: Nawi that she like stayed behind to help when they
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: were launching that like surprise attack, I feel like you
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: could read that as Naniska was upset, like, oh, you
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: staying behind could have gotten you killed, And I wouldn't
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: want that because I love you like you're my own daughter,
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: and it turns out she is our daughter.
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: I think that that relationship was just like built out
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: very cleverly, and I to speak to this sort of
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: like compartmentalizing of emotions and that whole idea that the
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: Agogi hold that you can't have relationship like romantic relationships,
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: you can't have a family and bear children. To show
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: love and to show emotion is a sign of weakness,
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: and that's something that now we challenges. One she like
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: challenges the double standard of well, the male soldiers the
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: men warriors are allowed to you know, have wives and
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: have families.
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: Why not us?
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: And then you have I think at one point Zogi
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: is like, you know, I'm gonna be general someday. I
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: can't have love, you know, I can't have both things
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: because now he's like if you never loved before? And
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: she's like, no, women can't have it all.
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: She's like, oh no, the classic conflict. And I think,
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: like in a more historically accurate ending, even though it's framed,
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: there's a lot of joy in the way this movie ends,
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: and there is a celebration and Naniska is given the
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: woman king like role that we have been rooting for
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: her to have the entire movie. But in the end,
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: it's like, now we can't have it all, which is
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: unfortunately how it ends for a lot of a lot
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: of women. Where she does the oh I want to like,
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: I wonder if there's a term for what this is.
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: But when we haven't talked about the relationship with her
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: and Malik yet, but that like meaningful glance of like
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: this has run its course. It's almost it almost reminded
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: me of like at the end of The Dark Knight Rises,
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: where Fatman sees what's his name, Joseph, Oh no, the
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: butler And they're like yeah, okay, well see yah, like
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: it's the the just like, well, this relationship needs to
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: be done because the movie's over, so we're just gonna
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: have them have a little a little look.
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a look goes a long way sometimes.
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: But she doesn't get the relationship that she I mean it,
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: it didn't need to be that relationship, but like she
• 52:23
  Speaker 3: isn't able to have it all. But I like that
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: she is, which is you know, historically accurate.
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: Right though I will say so again, like now we
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: challenges this idea that like to express emotion and to
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: feel love equals a sign of weakness, and she's like
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: that's not true, Like I can still be a good
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: warrior and love somebody. And it feels as though Naniska
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: comes around on this and it's not on like romantic
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: love but familial love, where like I think she was
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: like holding herself back from like loving herder that she
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: found out that she had. But then with that tender
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: moment between them in the end where you know, she's
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: apologizing and they're both like just kind of reconciling and
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: recognizing their relationship and what that means for them, and
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: they're like letting love in.
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: It's so that ending scene with them is really beautiful.
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: I really loved it where they're yeah, they're like, yeah,
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: they're apologizing to each other, but it's not I don't know,
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: it's like such a you're like, oh, two women apologizing
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: to e check, but it feels but they're like it
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: kind of boils down to like, I'm sorry that the
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: world is the way it is, and I'm sorry that
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: society is stacked so much against you and against me,
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: but that doesn't mean that we can't love each other.
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: And that is beautiful beauty.
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: Let's take another quick break and then we will come
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: right back, and we're back. And I want to quote
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: and paraphrase a piece in Refinery twenty nine entitled The
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: Woman King Severs The Strong Black Woman Trope for Good
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: by Kathleen Newman Braman, which kind of speaks to this
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: as far as like the withholding emotion or suppressing emotion,
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: but then particularly Naniska kind of having a character arc
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: where she lets emotion happen, which is something I need
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: to learn how to do sometimes as well. So hashtag relatable.
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: But in this piece Kathleen talks about a trope in
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: media and an expectation in real life that Black women
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: have to be so strong and resilient quote quote unquote
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: strong Black woman TM. She's the epitome of resilience and perseverance.
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: She's an overachiever with an infallible moral compass. Her strength
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: comes from having to overcome unimaginable adversity that would break
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: anyone else but not her. It is her most defining
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: characteristic unquote. And then the writer goes on to say
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: that a lot of people have rejected this trope and
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: this expectation which has led for this like push for softness,
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: and so I'll share another quote. When strength has been
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: the default, the requirement and expectation to be soft is
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: a quiet defiance of a burden we never asked for.
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: For some Black women to say that's enough resiliency for
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: me can be a revelation, an exhale of freedom from
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: the presumption that our worth is measured in how well
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: we endure oppression, that our only value is our high
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: tolerance for suffering. On its surface, the Woman King seems
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: like another addition to the Strong Black Woman TM.
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: Cannon.
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: The film tells the story of some of the fiercest
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: warriors in history, the Agoji. Of course they're strong. In
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: the opening battle scene of the film, Lashana Lynch's Izogi
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: takes down her opponent by gouging his eyes out with
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: her nails. With a piercing, rally rallying cry. These warriors
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: race into war with sharpened machetes and no fear. We
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: have never seen black women be this strong on film.
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: The closest we've come is the Dora Milage in Black Panther,
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: a fictional army that was based on the Egogi. And yet,
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: as physically adept and mentally tough as the Agogi are,
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: they are also full human beings who experience other emotions
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: than fortitude. I said that, so weird fortitude?
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: Ooh, Professor Durante, fortitude. There we go.
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: Their strength is a fact, a basic requirement of their job,
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: not a replacement for a personality. The piece goes on.
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: It's really excellent. I recommend reading it. I just want
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: to share one last quote from Shila a team who
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: plays Amenza. She says, quote strength has been weaponized against
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: black women. As much as it is a positive trait
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: to have at times, it's also something that has been
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: placed upon us to prevent us from having the agency
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: to feel anything else and to be anything else. What
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: I love about this film is that it says you
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: can be all of those things within the spectrum of strength.
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: You can also be vulnerable, you can find strength in others.
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: I think that's really important for us to see because
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: the strong black woman trope is still prevalent out there,
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: and I want people to be able to understand that
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: they can feel the full spectrum of what it means
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: to be a human being unquote. Which I think all
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: of that just nicely sums up that conversation we were
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: having about the female relationships and the kind of nuances
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: of them and whether or not showing emotion equals weakness
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: all that it's.
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: Like an active question and yeah, and like when the
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: fact that that is like kind of an important question
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: as the without shaming Niniska and knowing that she comes
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: by this mentality honestly, but you know, it's a good
• 58:40
  Speaker 3: historical epic precedent because I feel like that is again,
• 58:44
  Speaker 3: like this is an outlier in so many ways, but
• 58:47
  Speaker 3: even just with that mentality of like being emotionally open
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: is not a weakness and is in fact a strength
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: is something that still feels like kind of rare in
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: movies in general.
• 59:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, giving that the movie was a
• 59:06
  Speaker 4: mix of or an amalgamation of fiction and the writer's ideas,
• 59:13
  Speaker 4: it was.
• 59:13
  Speaker 5: One of the things that caught me as well.
• 59:15
  Speaker 4: I don't think there would have been any harm in
• 59:17
  Speaker 4: the overall plot if we had one soldier, one of
• 59:20
  Speaker 4: the aguages who was soft and you know, showed emotions
• 59:25
  Speaker 4: without necessarily being seen as weak, you know. And I
• 59:29
  Speaker 4: really enjoyed reading that article on the strong woman trope
• 59:33
  Speaker 4: for the Black woman and YadA YadA. But yeah, I
• 59:36
  Speaker 4: just felt like it was one of the things I
• 59:38
  Speaker 4: would have really loved to see. It's not it's indeed
• 59:42
  Speaker 4: not reality that you find many you know, most successful
• 59:46
  Speaker 4: Black women are seen as strong and powerful, but when
• 59:49
  Speaker 4: you read their histories or their biographies, you know, Viola
• 59:52
  Speaker 4: Davis asked Viola Davis, not General Daniska or Michelle Obama
• 59:57
  Speaker 4: or Oprah Wainfrey. They tend to come out in their
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 4: books at this as vulnerable and soft, and they talk
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 4: about how they've had to show up a strong woman,
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 4: but that's not the lives they want to live in.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 4: Many cases. So yeah, I feel like that's one of
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 4: the things that the writer could have weaved in somewhere
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 4: into the movie. There was the girl that was from
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 4: the Mahi I think community and she hardly spoke, yeah,
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 4: and she was calm, but she was really strong. I
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 4: mean she came second after now We in the Aguja competition,
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 4: the competition or whatever, and you know, she was a
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 4: bit close to it, but we hardly heard her speak,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 4: and then at the end she got killed.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: Yes, that's a good point. I didn't I honestly didn't
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 3: even register that, yeah, because I think that like now
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: We is sort of our main analog into that mentality,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: but she's like punished for it a lot before it's
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 3: and oh man, I also I'm like justice for that character.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: Well, then there's another character named Fumbe who is good
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: friends with nawi Is She The character says something like,
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: I don't really want to stay and be a warrior,
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: but I have nowhere else to go, yes, and so
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: she I feel like maybe they could have explored more
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: like softness with that character too, especially because she is
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: not gung ho about being a warrior. And but I
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: also that's another friendship. I really liked and yeah, I
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: think maybe if that had been explored further.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 5: Did not die?
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: Oh I I was losing track of who was getting killed.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 3: I don't think she died. He Wait, no, I.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: Don't know if we see her in that final battle.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 3: Wait, that's that's not fair. I mean there's a few
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: things for at the end of the movie where we
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 3: were like, huh hah, there's a lot of loops closing
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 3: kind of rapidly, So I feel like I lost track
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: of a couple of characters. I honestly forgot by the end.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 3: I was like, oh, yeah, Malik, right, can we talk
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 3: about that really quick? What did you think about the
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: romance in this movie?
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: I didn't hate it.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 3: I didn't love it. I didn't love it.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: I was say, but here's why I didn't hate it.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: She challenges him in a lot of ways. She's like, you,
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: you're a slaver and he's like, no, I'm not. I'm
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: just here because my mom wanted me to be here.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: I'm just hanging out with slave traders. And you're like,
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 3: we're gonna need a better I think we need a
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: better answer.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: Yes, maybe I just like him because he's hot, But
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: that's entirely possible, but he seems to respect her. I Also,
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: what I think I like about it is that I
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: appreciate that the movie didn't feel the need to keep
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: them together forever. Yeah, they had this short romance. I'm
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: pretty sure they have sex in that like hotel room.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 3: Or something wherever they are implied.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but and then they go their separate ways and
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: he's like, come with me to England and she's like pass.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: So I appreciate it because I feel like most movies
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: would be like, well, they like each other and they
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: had sex one time, so now they have to be
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: together forever, right, right?
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: And I feel like there's also I don't know, like
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 3: because it seems like there are a number of Egojie
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 3: soldiers that are like again, like women often are like
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 3: valued and prized for their chastity, and that is like
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 3: elevates their value as a person. They're so chaste and
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 3: the virginal and all this, and like, just I do
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: like representation of losing your virginity and then being like
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 3: and now it's you know, the next day and I'm
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 3: moving on with my life, and it's like not like
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 3: this huge thing that's built out to be I guess
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 3: I don't know. Yeah, I liked what the relationship represented,
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 3: which was like to me like Nawi saying like, well,
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 3: no fuck what the king said about how I can
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 3: like I'm fighting for him every day and I can't
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 3: have a boyfriend, like get a life. I like that
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 3: as like symbolic, like an act of defiance, as like
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 3: symbolic rebellion. Yeah, because usually I don't think you usually
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 3: see a heterosexual relationship as an act of defiance, but
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 3: it is in this and it like does symbolize. And
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 3: I agree with you, Caitlin. I like that it ends
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 3: and it now he's not gonna throw away this community
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 3: and this newfound family and literal like literal and symbolic
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 3: family to move to England with a guy she had
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 3: sex with one time. Like, honestly, that's that's good that
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 3: I was like she was right about that, because sometimes
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, i'd moved to a had sex with
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 3: one time. But but what I what I didn't love
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 3: about I don't know. I just I the act relationship.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 3: I was not super wild. I think it's just like
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 3: she's too good for him.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: For sure, Like but he's also he's like the least
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: worst man in the movie because all the other men, yes,
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: are horrible. And I do appreciate that the movie is
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: not shy about saying, like, look, how awful men can be.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 3: I feel like they still let John Vega off the
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 3: hook a little bit. But yeah, I just didn't love
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 3: I didn't love Malik because obviously, now that the Barbie
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 3: trailer is kinda has come out, all I want to
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 3: say is she's everything, He's just Ken. And that's kind
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 3: of how I feel about that relationship. Like now he
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 3: is everything, Malik is just Ken, like he's I wouldn't
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 3: even say he's fine. I mean, I understand, like they
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 3: the script and the story contextualizes his predicament and I
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 3: don't want to oversimplify it, but ultimately he is still,
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 3: you know, hanging out with slave traders, and like, now
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 3: we she's everything, He's just can It's true. It is
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 3: how I feel about the relationship. I don't know, what
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 3: did you make of that? Wrong?
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 4: Kay I felt the same way too. I was really
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 4: hoping that at the end of the movie she wouldn't
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 4: choose to get on the boats with him. That's sad.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 4: I also admired how much he seemed to love her
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 4: fighting for her, especially at that scene with It's Okay
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 4: where they were being sold or you know, the highest
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 4: bider was looking at how much they would cost, and
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 4: then he came and disrupted the whole thing, and YadA YadA,
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 4: and he disrupted their plans to escape for whatever. Anyway,
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 4: but you know, he was really he was ready to
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 4: put himself on the line. And then obviously a white
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 4: man killed. That means real trouble for the Dahomies and
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 4: all your empire people. But he still kept now in
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 4: his room. That seemed a bit unrealistic to me. I mean,
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 4: how could he have kept her in the same compound
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 4: where the very angry.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 5: People were and really.
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 4: Couldn't overtake him. Kind of have been planned and he's
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 4: not a fighter exactly. So yeah, it was interesting to
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 4: see that. But in terms of their love, yeah, I
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 4: really liked that now we sort of stood her ground.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 4: He dictated how she wanted the relationship to be. You know,
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 4: there were times where she was sought with him, not
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 4: a lot, but there were also times where she stood
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 4: up to him and quite boldly too. And again I
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 4: would say I was really scared at the end. Jamie
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 4: liked you that she would just up and go with him,
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 4: especially when he offered her a dress. I thought that
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 4: was the start to or now that she wears the
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 4: dress of the Europeans, she would become one of them.
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 4: But thankfully she didn't. So, yeah, that was quite intriguing
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 4: to watch. Yeah, and I'm not unusual to be hones.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 4: I again linked it to today's world. There's a lot
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 4: of Europeans or Americans or whatever who go to America,
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 4: to African countries to whether it's for wars or for
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 4: business or for tourism, plash or whatever it is, and
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 4: then they fall in love. You know, it's it's a
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 4: usual story. You fall in love with a black woman,
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 4: and there's you know, controversies around whether you can date
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 4: a black woman or not, or an African woman. So
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 4: it wasn't it wasn't intriguing in the sense that, yeah,
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 4: this is the normal world and this is what.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 5: We see every time.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 4: But I loved the twist where and now we did
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 4: not let herself get wiped off her feet because of him.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 4: You know, she didn't show that, she didn't show that
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 4: she was intrigued by being admired by a white man
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 4: or a slave trader or a mixed race man, whatever
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 4: you want to create us.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I I hope that like if this, I
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 3: don't know, this doesn't really seem like this, most historical
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 3: epics don't have sequels, but I'm like, I hope, you know,
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 3: like if head canon you go like a couple of
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 3: years down the line in this story, that now we
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 3: would feel more comfortable to explore a relationship with maybe
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 3: someone who wasn't a slave trader, you know, just an idea,
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 3: but yeah, and that hopefully because because Naniska has gone
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 3: through this transformation and is more open to emotional vulnerability
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 3: and the sort of I guess like quiet emotional rebellion
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 3: that she is able to do, that she would be
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 3: accepting of that because it's like, yeah, like I don't know,
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 3: I think it's so I've been thinking about this a
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 3: lot lately, but like I think it is such a
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 3: trapping of like modern feminism to say like I don't
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 3: need a man or even a partner because I can
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 3: provide for myself, which is true and like is now
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 3: not as accessible as it should be still, but I
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 3: think that sometimes it is like a little like demonized
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 3: to still want partnership even though you can provide for
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 3: yourself in a way that has not been historically possible before.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 3: And I like that now we again, it's like I think,
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's funny because I feel like we keep
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 3: applying the woman King's like eighteen twenty promise to right now.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 3: But I think that the movie wants you to do
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 3: that in a lot of ways. And I don't know. Wait,
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 3: I have two roads we go down if either of
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 3: your interested. Okay, I love man, I love talking about movies. Okay,
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 3: we can go down the history route or the production route.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 3: The two roads of discourse lay in front of us.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: I mean we will get to both eventually. Yes, do
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: history first?
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 3: Okay, so did did either? I mean I think part
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 3: of why this movie is very I mean there's a
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 3: lot of reasons why this movie is it's important that
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 3: this movie was made, but one of them is just
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 3: this is an area of history that in my you know,
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 3: Massachusetts public school, I did not learn about African history
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 3: really at all. It's soame. I just didn't know and
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 3: it was not prioritized in I think American education across
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 3: I mean American education, how they teach history. It seems
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 3: like it's still somehow getting worse, which is a fucking nightmare.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 3: But this was an area of history that I didn't
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 3: know anything about, and so I was excited, especially where
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 3: the movie starts with context that we were saying, like,
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 3: I definitely needed to place you in this world. I
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 3: was interested to read. I don't know. Yeah, did either
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 3: of you know about any of the history of the
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 3: Agoji before seeing this movie? I did not know.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 4: Not of the acle J. For me, I did off
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 4: the All Your Empire because the All Your Empire is
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 4: now in modern day Niger. It's not a state in
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 4: modern day Niger. So I knew of the Oio Empire,
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 4: but not of the agog which is a shame to
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 4: my history teachers as well. I would have loved because
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 4: I would have really loved to learn about Not to
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 4: distract from the story, but I would have really loved
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 4: to learn more about historical feminism in Africa.
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 4: Wow, I was still in high school and not you know,
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 4: when my life has gone through Tomoriles and I'm like, oh, wow,
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 4: there were actually women in the eighteen hundreds who were fighters,
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 4: But that's a that's another story. But short answered, No,
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 4: I never heard of the as before it's.
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 3: So true that I feel like there it reminds me
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 3: of our our friend Margaret Kiljoy has this amazing podcast
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 3: called Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff, and the whole
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 3: mission of it is to, yeah, like bring figures that
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 3: have been buried by historical quote unquote disinterest and like
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 3: bring them to the forefront and be like, Nope, women
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 3: have always been fucking cool, and like.
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: They were cool people which doing cool stuff.
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 3: So anyways, I was as I was watching the movie,
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 3: I was like, Wow, there's so many parallels to discussions
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 3: we're having in the West today. And it turns out
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 3: that that is sort of by design because this movie,
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 3: for as much as I enjoyed it, and as much
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 3: as it seems like everyone who saw it enjoyed it,
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 3: there has been a fair amount of criticism about its
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 3: historical accuracy and almost like prioritizing making sure it speaks
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 3: to a Western audience, not just a Western audience, but
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 3: a Western audience is understanding of slave trading versus historical
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 3: accuracy of what was actually going on at this time.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 3: And I don't like, I don't know it's I'm going
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 3: to quote for a New Yorker piece by Julian Lucas
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 3: who sort of unpacks this. And I think that there
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 3: are there most reviews of this movie mentioned like, yeah,
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 3: it's not super historically accurate, but like it's fucking amazing.
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 3: It's The Woman King, so relax, which I think is
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 3: a fair stance to take. And I also think that
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 3: you know it name a historical epic movie that is
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 3: like known for its historical accuracy, it's not really what
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 3: the genre is known for. And I feel like it
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 3: almost has like like any subgenre, but like almost like
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 3: a horror movie thing where it's like, yeah, this historical
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 3: epic is being made in this specific time for a reason,
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 3: so it's probably trying to speak to people about something specific.
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 3: But okay, this is from the New Yorker piece quote.
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 3: The Woman King has been billed as a powerful true story,
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 3: but one wonders what Cassola and Hurston, one of America's
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 3: first black women filmmakers. He's referencing Zorneil Hurston and Alulay
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 3: Cossola to writers and filmmakers, But one wonders what Cosola
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 3: and Hurston, one of America's first black women filmmakers, would
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 3: make of its narrative. For one thing, King Gezo was
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 3: not a reluctant participant in the slave trade. He fought
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 3: hard to preserve it from the British, formerly his favorite customers,
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 3: who blockaded the coast and unsuccessfully lobbied for abolition at
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 3: his court. His defeat of Oyo led to an explosion
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 3: in the number of slaves sold at Oida, a commerce
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 3: that he zealously defended, once giving a British envoy a
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 3: six year old girl as a gift for Queen Victoria.
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 3: Nor do I know of any evidence that the Agojee
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 3: ever resisted the trade. Some used their voices to clamor
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 3: for war in the Royal Council, expressing on one occasion
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 3: a preference for invading weaker neighbors. Quote. If we fail
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 3: to catch elephants, let us be content with flies unquote.
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 3: The film's conceit is charitably an elaborate exercise in wishful thinking.
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 3: Wouldn't it be nice if Tohomie's brave women warriors had
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 3: also been fighters for justice. Defenders of white supremacy have
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 3: often exploited these uncomfortable truths. Apologists for the slave trade
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 3: once used Dahomie's bloodthirsty reputation to claim that they were
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 3: rescuing their victims from human sacrifice. Imperialists used similar rhetoric
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 3: to justify colonial conquest as a form of abolition. In reality, though,
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 3: African forms of slavery didn't compare with the radicalized industrial
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 3: variance that Western empires unleashed upon the world unquote, So
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 3: all I did, I mean, this is again like we
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 3: none of us knew this history specifically, and I kind
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 3: of assumed that this movie would skew more historically accurate,
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 3: which is like, maybe not fair of me to like.
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 3: And then he goes on to suggest, like, well, if
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 3: you wanted to emphasize the power of the Agoji, they
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 3: could have chosen this period versus the period that they chose,
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 3: because it seems like in this moment specifically, certainly King Gezo,
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 3: I don't know, like reading, because I watched the movie
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 3: and then learned the history and then watch the movie again,
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 3: and the ending scene with King Gezo does not go
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 3: down as well once you know that the historical figure
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 3: was actively participating in the slave trade enthusiastically the entire
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 3: time for personal profit and was very complicit in the
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 3: subjugation of his own people. And then you have John
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 3: Boyega being like abolition now and.
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: You're like, right, so, yes, there were liberties taken with history,
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 2: as we've said a lot of historical epic cinema, does
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's a really big liberty, huge liberty. I
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 2: guess I wonder what would the value have been to
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 2: depict history exactly as it happened in this instance and
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 2: that way, you have this movie about these warriors who
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 2: are like not necessarily fighting for justice, they're just fighting
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 2: to like uphold the status quo of the slave trade.
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 2: And then you have this king who's like, yeah, let's
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 2: keep being slavers, and then that yes, that would have
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 2: been historically accurate. But do we need a movie about that?
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: Two?
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 3: I totally agree, I mean, I totally agree. I just
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 3: I don't I mean, I don't have a good answer
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 3: for that. I think that this writer tries to suggest
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 3: different periods of time in the Agoji's history that would
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 3: not be chafing with the reality of the period quite
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 3: so much. I don't know, I'd be interested to know
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 3: what our listeners think about this, because I I don't
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 3: really like, I don't know. I mean, that's a making king.
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 3: I mean, and again, it's like, you don't need to
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 3: write it so that King Gaza is an abolitionist by
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 3: the end of the movie didn't need to happen. It's
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 3: a very Hollywood ending. Yeah, exactly exactly. I think that, like, honestly,
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 3: I didn't mind the creative liberty taken that Naniska was
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 3: opposed to the slave trade. I think that that like
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 3: is a creative liberty that makes a ton of sense,
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 3: and it like keeps us with the Agogi. It's not
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 3: you know, And I know that this piece says that
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 3: in general the Agogi were often complicit in this, but
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 3: I think that the way that it's written of saying
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 3: like because at the beginning, Naniska is complicit in it,
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 3: but she is trying to actively make it stop. So
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 3: that made sense to me. I think it was just
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 3: the King Gezo creative liberties that was I think a
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 3: line for me. Yeah, the creative liberties within the Agoji
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 3: I wasn't as bothered by because I agree, it's like,
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 3: you know, you want to get on board with this story,
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 3: but I don't know. And especially because the what is
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 3: the name of the army that is in black Panther
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 3: we said it earlier, we forgot brain Dora Dora Melogi. Yeah,
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 3: they were, so they were inspired by the Agoji and
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 3: so like as we can see in the Black Panther franchise.
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 3: Because it's inspired by and not explicitly the Agoji, you
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 3: can take exclusively creative liberties. But I think, I mean,
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 3: it's it is kind of just like something that we
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 3: see in movies a lot that say they're based on
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 3: a true story. There's never any clear disclosure of like
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 3: this is the creative liberties that we took, which I
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 3: don't know. I mean, I I don't want to imply that.
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know. Historical filmmaking in general is
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 3: mostly fake, and I guess that I don't know. I
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 3: had I was interested to learn the history because it's
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 3: especially because the king subjugated is on people really really aggressively.
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 3: Don't give them an abolitionist speech at the end.
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I do have an interesting perspective. But firstly, Jimmy,
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 4: big ups to you for watching reading the history, and
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 4: then going back to watching it, because I think it
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 4: gives you a whole new perspective.
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 3: It's still why don't you do that?
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 4: So you know, I tried to do the same thing
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 4: and read up about the history of the movie, because
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 4: when I wrote about it, people said I was also
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 4: supporting a rewrite of history. So I went to check myself,
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 4: and you know, maybe to frame this with there's an
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 4: African proverb that says, until the lion can tell his story,
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 4: the hunter will always win, or the hunter's story will
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 4: always be it, but basically saying, you know, because the
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 4: lion dies, just nobody to tell the lion's story, and
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 4: in this case it is.
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 5: One of the things I found was that the.
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 4: Actual history of the Alcoa Jas or most of the
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 4: actual history of the Acho Jase that you can find,
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 4: has been written by Europeans, right, and not necessarily by
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 4: people from Bener Republic, which is the new you know,
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 4: where modern day the Dahomies are, and so it's hard
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 4: to say how much of that has been influenced by
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 4: the Europeans who were mostly the actual slave traders, or
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 4: at least who received most of the slaves. And that
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 4: just really made me feel like, oh my god. This
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 4: is deeper than just a criticism of the movie and
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 4: how much history is in it. It's also a criticism
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 4: of where it's the history of the ago Jays in
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 4: the world, who has written them, What biases did they hold,
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 4: what stories.
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 5: Do they adjust for their own selves.
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 4: I'm not a historian, so I haven't like really deep
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 4: dived into all of this, but yeah, it just gave
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 4: me a whole new perspective. And it's not just about
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 4: the agogist. There's so much about African history that I
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 4: think isn't written by Africans, and so I personally the struggle.
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 4: You know, when you read about whether it's the slave
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 4: trade or colonialism, or how Christianity and other religion was
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 4: brought into African countries, it's very hard to find those
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 4: tales written by Africans who experienced all whose family's experience,
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 4: and so it's written by Europeans, and it's very hard
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 4: to know if you should take it hook line and sinker,
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 4: or if you recognize the bias there.
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 2: I read on scholarly journal Wikipedia. The director Gina Prince Spythewood.
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 2: As she was researching for this movie, she had a
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 2: really hard time finding accounts of the Agoji that were
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 2: not written by Europeans and like people who were like
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 2: speaking about these warriors in a very like disparaging and
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 2: disrespectful way. So she had to like really dive to
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 2: find accurate and unbiased accounts.
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 3: Well even where they even where they found the names
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 3: Niniska and Nawi those are yeah, those are from accounts
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 3: of colonizers. Which, yeah, that's a really good point. Ron
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 3: kay where Yeah, like history and this is like I
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 3: guess part of the reason we didn't know this story
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 3: at all to any degree, and so we're like, yeah,
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 3: the Woman King is probably a documentary, which shouldn't be
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 3: the responsibility of a historical epic. You know, it's like that,
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 3: it's such a complicated thing. Yeah, that's a really good point.
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 3: But then like the good proverb too, I want to
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 3: read that.
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but then like the flip side of that is that, yes,
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 2: there are historical liberties and inaccuracies taken with this movie,
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 2: but just from like a very I guess maybe surface
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 2: level point of view. Again, like nothing I learned in
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: school about the slave trade focused at all on what
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 2: was happening in Africa, And none of them move I've
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 2: watched about slavery have been told from the perspective of
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 2: like they were always told the movie, of the movies
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 2: I've seen about it, it was always told from the
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 2: perspective of the people who had already been sold into
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 2: slavery and were working on plantations, and you know, those
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: are important stories to tell, of course, but there's so
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: many of them, and it kind of erases part of
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 2: the narrative of like the people who were sold into slavery,
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 2: and it erases like their lives and their culture in
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 2: their homeland pre being stolen and human trafficked. So I
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 2: had never seen anything in media or like again, anything
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 2: I ever learned in school that was focused on the
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 2: perspective that you'd see in The Woman King, right, So
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 2: at the very least, like this movie is valuable in
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 2: showing and again there's inaccuracies along the way, but it's
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 2: also polling from a lot of history and to show
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 2: that perspective was super valuable for me, having never seen
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 2: anything like that in like American media or American education.
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 3: I agree, Yeah, I mean, I think again, it's my
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 3: This is like I think just a preference that this
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 3: is true of all historical movies for me, is that
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 3: because Naniska is not a real person who exists, you
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 3: have a ton of creative liberty. You have a ton
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 3: of freedom. Every soldier that we see in the Agoji,
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 3: we're not real people, and if you're attributing stuff to
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 3: a real person and a real leader, I feel like
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 3: there is a line of where creative liberty is appropriate.
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 3: But that's also just my opinion. I have one more
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 3: chunk from this New Yorker piece I'd like to share.
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 3: I also didn't know that Lupita Nyango was supposed to
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 3: be in this movie and then she dropped out. Yeah,
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 3: so this piece is very much speculating as to why.
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 3: But I just wanted to share this really quick. So
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 3: from the same New Yorker piece quote, but you don't
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 3: have to take my word for it. In twenty eighteen,
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 3: when TriStar announced The Woman King, Lupita Nyango had been
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 3: cast as Nawi. Fresh off the success of Black Panther.
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 3: The Kenyan Mexican star was apparently so excited about her
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 3: new role that she visited Benin to make a short
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 3: documentary on the Agoji, possibly intended to build hype for
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 3: The Woman King. It also unravels the film's heroic premise,
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 3: as Niango's Beninese guide disillusions her about the Dahomeian legacy.
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 3: Niango begins her journey enthusing about how dope it is
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 3: to be in the land of the Amazons. She's fine, okay,
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 3: but after a sobering encounter with Gaezo's skull mounted throne,
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 3: she accepts that quote. Any notion of the Agoji being
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 3: a beacon of enlightened feminism like the Doramlogi in Wakanda
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 3: is long gone unquote. The emotional climax is an interview
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 3: with the elderly granddaughter of a woman enslaved by the Amazons,
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 3: who laments that she will never know her family in
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 3: present day in Nigeria. Quote what the Egoji did was
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 3: not good at all, the old woman insists, not good
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 3: at all. As the woman sings a Yoruba melody, Nyango
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 3: begins to cry, wondering aloud how she can reconcile celebrating
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 3: the Agoji with the bereavement of their victim's descendants. And
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 3: then we don't know why she ended up leaving the movie.
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 3: But I also didn't know that short doc existed, So
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 3: it's very, very complicated.
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's almost as if all history is fraught
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 2: with horror, yes, violence and prejudice.
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 3: Again, this is like, I'm not arguing against the movie's existence.
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 3: I really really enjoyed the movie, but I don't know
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 3: that's I think why I struggle with historical epics in general,
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 3: where you're like, hmm, what anyways, But I also want
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 3: to make sure that we are talking about the other
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 3: big conversation that surrounded this movie that is very much
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 3: rooted in the here and now, which is how difficult
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 3: it was to get this movie made and the very
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 3: mister Hollywood reasons why it was really difficult to get made.
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 2: So just kind of preliminary information as far as who's
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 2: behind the camera for this movie. It was directed by
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 2: a black woman, Gina Prince Spythewood, who we've covered on
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 2: the show before because she directed Love and Basketball as
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 2: well as The Old Guard, Secret Life of Bees, Beyond
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 2: the Lights. She's also directed quite a bit of television
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 2: like Girlfriends, Everyone Hates Chris, and The Bernie Mac Show.
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 2: The movie was written by Dana Stevens, with like story
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 2: by credits from Dana Stevens and Maria Bellow.
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 3: Bellow Okay.
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 2: And we're back and we're back to Yes, Dana Stevens.
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 2: She's a screenwriter who's written a number of things like
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 2: City of Angels, for Love of the Game, Steve Haven,
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 2: which I think is a movie adapted from a Nicholas
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 2: Sparks book.
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 3: Oh really wow, and range, I'm pretty sure.
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 2: And then Maria Bello has mostly worked as an actor
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 2: and I recognize her from Coyote Ugly. She plays like
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 2: the bar owner in Coyote Ugly.
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 3: Oh wow, wow, a lot of range taking place here.
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, Dana Stevens and Maria Bello are both white women.
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 2: The whole kind of conceit of this movie happened when
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 2: Maria Bella Bello I'm sure it's Bello. In twenty fifteen,
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 2: she went to Benin in West Africa, specifically to learn
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 2: about the history of the Agogi. It seems like she
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 2: went on or I don't know if she like went
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 2: and then learned about it or went with the intent
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 2: of learning about them. Either way, she was like, there's
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 2: definitely like a story here, there's a there's a movie
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 2: we can make about this. So she returned to La
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 2: She recruited a producer, later pitched the idea to Viola Davis.
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 2: They found a screenwrapolic which I yet which like till
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 2: he puts I was, You're oh, by the way, you're like,
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 2: she's Maria. And then Jamie, I think you might have
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 2: more information. I just have like a very brief overview.
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you have more.
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 3: Okay, So yeah, I mean this, I think we've heard
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 3: this story many times. Unfortunately, at this point where this
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 3: movie was, I mean like a lot of ois. It
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 3: was in kind of development hell for a long time,
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 3: starting in twenty fifteen. But a lot of it was
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 3: because of Hollywood and producers, especially the further back you go,
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 3: uh doubt that a majority black cast could be successful
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 3: on a blockbuster scale, which is unfortunately something that we
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 3: hear a lot. And so you know, having Viola Davis
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 3: involved was really really critical because she has such star power.
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 3: There was also a fair amount of colorism that Gina
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 3: Prince Bythewood described in the casting of this movie, where
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 3: before Viola Davis signed on, a lot of more light
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 3: skinned women were floated as playing Naniska as opposed to
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 3: what would be historically accurate, and fortunately a battle that
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 3: was won. But I have a quote from Viola Davis
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 3: sort of speaking to this point. She says, the part
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 3: of the movie that we love is also the part
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 3: of the movie that is terrifying to Hollywood, which is
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 3: it's different, it's new. We don't always want different or
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 3: new unless you have a big star attached, a big
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 3: male star with studios like it when women are pretty
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 3: and blonde or close to pretty and blonde, all of
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 3: these women are dark and they're beating men. So there
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 3: you go. And that was just her talking about why
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 3: it was it took so long. And we've heard this
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 3: a few times now, because I can't believe, like Black
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 3: Panther came out like almost five years ago now, but
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 3: it wasn't until Black Panther was massively successful with a
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 3: woman army that was based on the Agoji that this
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 3: movie got a meaningful push ahead. And so again like
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 3: this is everything is incremental and and then at that
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 3: point I believe Gina Prince Bythewoold signed on. She said
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 3: to I think that she did do some work on
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 3: the script, but she's not a credited writer. But I
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 3: just I thought it was like, I mean, Gina Prince Bythewood,
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 3: like she walks the walk hard, she's so fucking cool,
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 3: Like she advocates for having diversity and giving people opportunities
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 3: that most filmmakers in most systems do not prioritize. I
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 3: wanted to share a quote from her about really prioritizing
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 3: having a lot of diversity and women and people of
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 3: color behind the scenes as well, because as we talk
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 3: about all the time, that does not always happen. But
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 3: she says the thing is for women and people of color,
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 3: often the resumes are not long because it's about lack
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 3: of opportunity, not lack of talent. So when you're in
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 3: my position, it's important to look past that resume. And yeah,
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 3: I mean, she's the coolest. And she also wrote that
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 3: kick ass. Okay, take that that word feels That word
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 3: feels very twenty thirteen coded to me for some reason.
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 3: I take that back. She wrote a really good op
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 3: ed when the Woman King was snubbed. It was published
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 3: in the Hollywood Reporter, and she's just like, I mean,
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 3: she's been historically very outspoken speaking on behalf of marginalized filmmakers,
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 3: both on behalf of women and on behalf of Black
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 3: women specifically, and I think that that op ed prompted
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 3: a lot of discussion that was like, very needed. So
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 3: I wanted to just share a quote from that. I
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 3: believe this is at the end quote. It's a difficult
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 3: thing to know for every black filmmaker and definitely every
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 3: black female filmmaker that your work is not valued in
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 3: the same way. This is a systemic American problem, which
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 3: is why this felt so insidious and large. It's tough
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 3: to enter something that's supposed to be judged on merit
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 3: but you know, it's not a meritocracy unquote. And I mean, we'll,
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 3: we'll link it. It's a really good piece and yeah,
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 3: so I mean this. Unfortunately, like we hear a lot,
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 3: this movie was not easy to get made, but it
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 3: did end up getting made on a pretty large scale.
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 3: It has a fifty million dollar budget and it made
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 3: around one hundred million dollars. It was successful. And so
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 3: once again, mister Hollywood is fucking wrong. What do you know?
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 2: Something I was curious about and kind of surprised by
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 2: when I learned who wrote the screenplay and developed the story. Again,
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 2: these these two white women, white American women. I was
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 2: curious about because we've often talked about movies that we've
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 2: covered that make an attempt at, you know, a feminist
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 2: theme or are trying to say something about race or racism,
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 2: but the movie doesn't quite stick the landing or go
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 2: far enough, usually because it was written by someone whose
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 2: perspective is not it'll be you know, written by a
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 2: white person or a man or both. So so there's
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 2: often a for effort, a for effort, but like the
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 2: perspective wasn't quite there and not enough consulting was done.
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 2: So I'm curious Ranke, if you have any thoughts on
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 2: aside from the very obvious thing of the people of
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 2: Dahom speaking English. Right aside from that obvious thing, were
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 2: there other things that made it particularly obvious that this movie,
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 2: which is about black women in Africa, that it was
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 2: written by white women from America? Or does it feel
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 2: like they did enough research and that they handled the
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 2: subject matter with enough care that it wasn't super obvious.
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 2: Do you have any thoughts on that?
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So, when I first watched the movie, and I've
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 4: seen it three times, the first time I thought, oh gosh,
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 4: beautiful powerful.
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 5: Women, black women.
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 4: And then the second time, after reading some of the
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 4: history and things that went back and what then it
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 4: was like, hmm, you know, if a black person, I
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 4: think if a black screenwriter was behind the movie, they
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 4: would have really brought out Malik and the other guy
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 4: who died by the shallow water as some of the
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 4: real villains in the movie. I think the way it is,
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 4: the Portuguese people, whether Malik and the other guy are
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 4: the ones who were doing the beats, were very They
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 4: weren't really the bad people. They were bad, but it
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 4: was more about the all your empire and the Daho
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 4: mades promoting slave trade and doing everything. You know, the
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 4: Portuguese were seen as the ones who brought the night
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 4: gifts and who gave access to the sea and whatever
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 4: had the shiny boats. It wasn't about the fact that
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 4: they were the ones in true history who were behind
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 4: slave trade. And this is a whole it's a bone
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 4: of contentional. You know, there are people who argue that
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 4: the Africans, who sold their people where was responsible for
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 4: slave trade, and there are others who argue that the
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 4: Bias and mostly the Europeans or sometimes the Americans, were
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 4: responsible for six Suite. So anyway, my point really is
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 4: that I think we would have seen that inherent bias
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 4: if the tables were turned, and if it was written
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 4: by black script writers, you'd see more of how terrible
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 4: the Portuguese were. Otherwise, I really really loved how much
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 4: of the culture was brought out, the music, the dance,
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 4: sharing blades like using one blade on several people. The clothing,
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 4: the facial expressions. You know, I felt as an African woman,
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 4: as an and Geeran woman. I felt very close to
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 4: home by seeing all of that. But again, you know,
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 4: there's one thing in seeing the movie from face value
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 4: and just watching it because it's a nice movie, and
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 4: there's another thing in trying to interrogate the history and
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 4: the race of the people behind it or their gender.
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 4: So for me, first value at that movie, I didn't
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 4: think anything was wrong. I left the culture display on reflection.
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 4: It was a bit of okay, yeah, maybe this is
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 4: not really telling the true story of the rule of
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 4: the slave traders here, right.
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 2: Because they really lean into general oba as being like, yes,
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 2: the exact really worst man alive.
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 3: Exactly, he's the worst bad guys you said earlier, Yeah, exactly,
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 3: the worst back, which is like a trophy that props
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 3: up in different ways. But it did feel like, yeah,
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 3: he was implied to be worse than the Portuguese, which
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 3: does not make sense to me, Like, I think you
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 3: can be obviously complicit in the way that I am
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 3: coming down hard on the king, but like you can
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 3: be complicit, but that doesn't Yeah, that felt a little
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 3: false equivalence. That's a good point, yeah, yep.
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 4: Other than that again, I just really want to say
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 4: how much I love the culture or like just watching
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 4: them dance. It wasn't just about moving their buddies. It
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 4: was the power and the energy, you know, and how
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 4: much their fit were heating the ground. It was the
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 4: right color of sand of dust.
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 5: And I know, this.
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 4: Is really crazy. If I remember one time I traveled
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 4: to Nigeria, I came back to the UK to London,
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 4: and I went to wash my hair and there was
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 4: a lot of dust for my trip in my hair.
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 4: And I remember the hairdresser calling her colleagues to come
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 4: see what Nigerian sand looks like, because it was really
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 4: red and stuff. And that was really funny to me.
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 4: I was like Nigerian sand, but on reflection, you actually
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 4: don't find, at least in my part of London.
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 5: I never really seen red sand.
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 4: But the movie had that, like I think it was
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 4: it went down to the detail of what those communities
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 4: looked like, the indigo dye boiling in the well somewhere,
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 4: the walls, maybe not the clothings of the queens, but
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 4: then I mean that was the eighteen hundreds.
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 5: I don't think. I don't know.
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 4: Maybe Queen's dressed like that, then I think that was
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 4: a bit extra vagance for West Africa. I don't think
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 4: we got that out. They got the outfit right for
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 4: the West African queens. But otherwise it was such a beautiful,
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 4: we done movie in terms of the culture.
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 3: That was displayed. Oh that's good to hear.
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 3: I also is reading just Gina Prince Bythewood. I thought
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 3: it was I was so curious of like what movie
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 3: she was thinking about. It's just like I like to
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 3: know that in general. But she said some of her inspiration.
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 3: She said when she was staging. Oh it feels bad
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 3: to phrase it that way, but when Niska is having
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 3: flashbacks to being assaulted, that she went to Christine blasi
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 3: Ford's testimony a lot in building out what that was
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 3: supposed to look and feel like. And also had the
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 3: actor who was playing young Naniska read Roxanne Gay's Hunger,
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 3: which is book about her assault. So I thought that
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 3: was really interesting. And then she also said what was
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 3: like She referenced a couple of she I think she
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 3: referenced like Gladiator as like when she was looking at
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 3: staging the fights. Brave Heart was another one, Braveheart I've
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 3: never seen Braveheart, and Last of the Mohicans, which I
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 3: haven't seen it. I don't think I want to. But anyways, Gladiator.
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 2: One of the last things I want to say, because
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 2: we touched on like women as warriors, because we've talked
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 2: a million times about the tropes surrounding women fighting on
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 2: screen and like their fight choreography. We're talking a lot
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 2: about it recently on the john Wick episode. I don't
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 2: think we need to rehash most of it. But the
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 2: one thing that I do want to point out that
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 2: we haven't really touched on quite as much is the
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 2: sort of like level of groundness when it comes to
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 2: the violence, because I feel like usually when you see
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 2: women fighting on screen, even if they kill someone, the
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 2: violence is not very graphic. Like there's sort of this
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 2: idea that like, oh, when women kill people, it has
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 2: to be you know, it's either implied or like, it
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 2: can't be bloody. Yeah, it has to be fine, it
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 2: has to be right, or the other thing you'll see
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 2: is that I feel like women are way more likely
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 2: to be seen showing mercy than a man, where like
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 2: a woman will maybe be about to kill someone, but
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 2: then she won't because like that person appeals to her
• 1:44:43
  Speaker 2: emotions and she feels bad and so she shows mercy.
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 2: But the agogie are like brutally killing people, and the
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 2: movie is not shy about the violence and the blood
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 2: and then they are you know, people's like personal mile
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 2: will vary about like how how graphic they want, you know,
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 2: battle scenes to be, but in real life a battle
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 2: like this would be very brutal and bloody. And I
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 2: appreciated that the movie was not afraid to show the
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 2: women warriors being brutal the way that male warriors in
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 2: movies get to be brutal.
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 3: All the time. Yeah, it was not toned down, not
• 1:45:22
  Speaker 3: to be more, not at all.
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 4: That scene where you get used to her fingers.
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, someone's eyes out guard. That was I remember
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 3: the first time I saw the trailer, everyone was like,
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 3: oh my god, like yeah, that felt I wonder, I
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 3: wonder if that was a historic I didn't look up
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 3: the historical accuracy of fighting or how much there's even
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 3: available about their methods of fighting. But in like the
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 3: Hollywood movie sense, it kind of felt like the Ponytail
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 3: moment and Birds of Prey, where like it's this traditionally
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 3: feminine thing, having long nails used to fucking destroy someone. Yeah,
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 3: it's pretty cool. I like, I'm like, I'm a sucker,
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 3: but I like those moments. I thought that was awesome.
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 2: Does anyone else have anything they want to talk about?
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 5: Yeah? I think I covered most of the things I had.
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 2: Cool.
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 4: I can't believe two hours is gone, but I like.
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 3: I don't have an hour. I was like, oh, you'll
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 3: be surprised.
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 2: Well, does this movie pass the Bechdel test?
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, a lot, exclusively, or well more often than not, more.
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 2: Often than it doesn't. Yeah, yeah, between a lot of
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 2: different combinations of characters. As far as our nipple scale,
• 1:46:45
  Speaker 2: the perfect the one trick where we rate the movie
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 2: on a scale of zero to five nipples based on
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 2: examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens, I will
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 2: give this four maybe like four point two five nipples.
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 2: Just a couple of things we talked about as far
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 2: as like and Ronk at your point about if this
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 2: movie had been written by a black woman, that they
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 2: probably would have framed the like European slavers as the
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 2: primary villains and not another African person. Because mister Evil
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 2: is the like o Yo General and he's like the
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 2: main villain of the movie. But there's a lot to
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 2: love about this movie, the dismantling of that strong black
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 2: woman trope of you know, always having to be like
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 2: unrealistically strong and resilient when that expectation is so unfair
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 2: for black women. The movie deals with serious and painful
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 2: subject matter. I mean, it's covering things like slavery and
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 2: human trafficking and war, and but the movie also takes
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 2: time to show black joy, largely through the relationships between women.
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 2: It strikes a really nice balance of the heavier and
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 2: more painful topics but also showing a lot of black
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 2: joy in black love.
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, like that just showing the full spectrum of humanity,
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 3: like tragedy.
• 1:48:25
  Speaker 2: Right, So I appreciated that. You know, there are some
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 2: historical inaccuracies, and I remember the conversation like when the
• 1:48:37
  Speaker 2: movie was released in theaters, there's kind of like a
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 2: push to ban the movie and like not go seek,
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 2: which is ridiculous. People's reasoning was like, well, the nation
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 2: featured in the movie was they were active participants in
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 2: the slave trade. And while that is true, the movie
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 2: takes some historical liberties to show different characters fighting against that,
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 2: and yes, that wasn't historically accurate. I don't know. It's complicated,
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 2: and I don't know. I mean, I don't think it
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 2: where to land on it.
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 3: I don't think that tanking the movie's success is going
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 3: to unfortunately, because it always feels like, especially movies made
• 1:49:19
  Speaker 3: by marginalized creators, that like it's mister fucking mister Hollywood,
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 3: a person who exists, but like that system is always
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 3: looking for an example to point to, to be like, see,
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 3: people don't want to see women leading a movie. People
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 3: don't want to see an all black or a majority
• 1:49:36
  Speaker 3: black cast in a movie. And yeah, I understand why
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 3: people would be upset about the historical inaccuracies. I think
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 3: that's very valid, But I don't think that the appropriate
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 3: response is to be like, let's tank this movie, like yeah, I.
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 2: Don't know, Yeah it's tricky, but yeah, there's a lot
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 2: to love about this movie. The focus on the female relationships,
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 2: the focus on the female warriors, because historical action epics
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 2: like this are never about women, and especially never about
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 2: black women, and again, to represent them as having a
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 2: range of personalities and emotions and to get to see
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 2: their physical strength and combat skills and see them kicking
• 1:50:21
  Speaker 2: ass to go back to kick ass as a frame, Yeah,
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 2: we're living in the past. I like that you see
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 2: a woman Naniska be recognized for her contributions and skills
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 2: and leadership and be elevated to this powerful position of
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 2: woman king. I like that you see another woman, Nawi
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 2: be rebellious and challenge the status quo and the patriarchal
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 2: sexist double standards they have to live by. Just a
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 2: lot of cool stuff happening. So I will give the
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 2: movie four and a quarter nip. I'll give one to
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 2: Villa Davis. I'll give one to the director, Gina Prince Bythewood,
• 1:51:06
  Speaker 2: I'll give one to Lashawna Lynch who plays Isogi, and
• 1:51:12
  Speaker 2: I'll give one to Tusso, who plays not We. I
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 2: really loved all of those performances.
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna go. I guess I'm gonna go for I
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 3: will be honest. The historical stuff does bug me a
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 3: little bit, especially after reading a little bit about the
• 1:51:31
  Speaker 3: Lupida Yango short doc in which you know, the descendants
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 3: of people who had been victimized were not okay with it,
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 3: And I think that those opinions should carry and matter,
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 3: and again it's it's I don't know this. This genre
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 3: is never gonna be a historically pure genre. Like I
• 1:51:52
  Speaker 3: can't think of a historical epic that is famous for
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 3: being accurate. They're mostly famous for being epic and often
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 3: famous for glorifying people who were not that great. And
• 1:52:04
  Speaker 3: I think that this movie does a lot to avoid
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 3: the trappings of the historical epic. But I also attributing
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 3: a totally an almost completely one eighty political philosophy to
• 1:52:16
  Speaker 3: a person that actually existed, it does bug me a
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 3: little bit. I'm also a history head. I don't know, however,
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 3: to echo everything you just said, Kaitlyn. I mean, it's
• 1:52:24
  Speaker 3: a fucking good movie, and I and I it's you know,
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 3: centering majority black woman cast. I feel like you often
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 3: hear when movies are centered around black women that there's
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 3: often colorism involved. That doesn't seem to have been the case. Here.
• 1:52:40
  Speaker 3: We get to see them fight and you know, be
• 1:52:44
  Speaker 3: brutal and ruthless, and we also good at poor people,
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 3: be good at war, which is what they should have
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 3: called it, the good at war. Uh women, Yeah, but
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 3: you also get to see their humanity, you get to
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 3: see their different personalities, their different relationships, they're conflicts with
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 3: each other, get you get it all in a way
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 3: that is very very very unusual. And I think that
• 1:53:07
  Speaker 3: this movie is just like good and also the fact
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 3: that it was successful means that hopefully we can see
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 3: more African historical epics that come out in Hollywood and
• 1:53:21
  Speaker 3: maybe there you know, again we're always talking about on
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 3: the show, like how progress is incremental. It was our idea.
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 3: We were the first people.
• 1:53:30
  Speaker 2: To say this correct, yes that's true, but.
• 1:53:32
  Speaker 3: That the success of The Woman King can lead to
• 1:53:34
  Speaker 3: an even better, possibly more historically accurate African epic. I
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 3: like those odds. I feel good about it, and it's
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 3: just yeah, really beautiful, well performed movie, and it shouldn't
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 3: have been snubbed in the way it was across and
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 3: I feel like, well, you know, there has been incremental
• 1:53:56
  Speaker 3: progress in those systems. And also, oh my gosh, Danielle
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 3: Deadweiler is that her name? Who was until that movie
• 1:54:04
  Speaker 3: also got massively snubbed. And I'm glad that Gina Prince
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 3: Bythewood is always, always always using her not that she
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 3: should have to, but she's always using her platform to
• 1:54:16
  Speaker 3: bring attention to how disrespected black women still are in
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 3: entertainment and in general today. So I'm going to go
• 1:54:24
  Speaker 3: for nipples, I guess. I'm going to give one to
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 3: Gina Prince Bythewood. I'm going to give one to Lashana
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 3: Lynch because she's my fave. I love her. I'm going
• 1:54:34
  Speaker 3: to give one to Viola Davis, and I'm going to
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 3: give one to Lupita Nango because I'm intrigued and I
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 3: hope she talks about this someday. Yeah, Ronka, how about you.
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 4: First again allowed to take Nichols to the men.
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 2: You can do whatever you want, you do whatever.
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, that's just by the way. I mean, I
• 1:54:59
  Speaker 4: share the re as from both of you. I really
• 1:55:02
  Speaker 4: enjoyed the movie, so I will give it a maybe
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 4: four point five because I'm really nice and taking away
• 1:55:09
  Speaker 4: the point five for that history reason. I feel like
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 4: it's a movie to enjoy and watch. But then there's
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 4: also the risk that it perpetuates the wrong story of history.
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 4: So you know, while the writers can give the excuse
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 4: and this is just a movie and it's fictionalizes and.
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 5: YadA YadA, I mean the people like us.
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 4: That they didn't study these things in school.
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 5: This is the way we learn it.
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 4: And if people don't go the extra mile of going
• 1:55:34
  Speaker 4: to find the actual history, this is all the history
• 1:55:36
  Speaker 4: they know. And of course you know there are people
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 4: who are actual victims of some of the work that
• 1:55:42
  Speaker 4: the ago Ja women did and the Dahomi community and
• 1:55:46
  Speaker 4: the old or your empire, and them having to watch this,
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 4: like Coupeter mentioned in her interview and maybe documentary, them
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 4: having to watch this and see that their rules out
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 4: as victims have acted, they've been erased. I think is
• 1:56:02
  Speaker 4: really is really unfair, because this is a movie, at
• 1:56:06
  Speaker 4: least a PostScript or something at the end to say
• 1:56:09
  Speaker 4: this is really fictionalized, we've done this, we've done that,
• 1:56:12
  Speaker 4: or we pay respect to the men and women who
• 1:56:16
  Speaker 4: died as a result of the slave trader, whose lives
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 4: were changed as a result of the slave trader. I
• 1:56:19
  Speaker 4: think the movie should have done that at the end
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 4: of it. I really love the culture, like I said
• 1:56:24
  Speaker 4: earlier on, and I want to emphasize about the black women,
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 4: like it is so powerful to see dark skin black women.
• 1:56:33
  Speaker 4: And I mean, we could take this for granted in
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 4: some ways, but in other ways it is this is
• 1:56:38
  Speaker 4: not something you normally see in Hollywood. Most times when
• 1:56:43
  Speaker 4: black women are featured in Hollywood. It's played by black
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 4: women who have maybe a white father or a white mother,
• 1:56:50
  Speaker 4: and so you know, they're lighter skin and by no
• 1:56:53
  Speaker 4: faults of years, I think they're really beautiful. But the
• 1:56:56
  Speaker 4: narrative that dark skinned black women are not beautiful needs
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 4: to be changed. I think this movie has contributed to change.
• 1:57:03
  Speaker 5: In that narrative.
• 1:57:04
  Speaker 4: I mean, despite how powerful and strong they looked, the
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 4: Agoja women came off as extremely beautiful to me. So
• 1:57:12
  Speaker 4: I really loved the movie for that. I love the goddness,
• 1:57:17
  Speaker 4: not because I enjoy seeing God, but you know, that
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 4: confidence and power that the women were allowed to show
• 1:57:24
  Speaker 4: was really great. The rebellion of now We Again, you know,
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 4: thumbs up for writing that in because and it wasn't
• 1:57:32
  Speaker 4: just about dating or being with maleig or flatting with men.
• 1:57:36
  Speaker 4: It was also about challenging Naniska and standing up to
• 1:57:40
  Speaker 4: her in different ways.
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 5: So I really really loved that.
• 1:57:45
  Speaker 4: In the sense of fiction, I loved King Getsu and
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 4: I loved him because you could see that he was
• 1:57:54
  Speaker 4: listening to Naniska. He respected her in places where you know,
• 1:57:59
  Speaker 4: in the King's Coming, where the other men, the other
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 4: the head of the male warriors would try to undermine Naniska.
• 1:58:06
  Speaker 4: You could see him, you know, speaking up for her
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 4: in some cases and actually taking her advice. So it
• 1:58:12
  Speaker 4: was really good to see that happen. I think that's fiction.
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he went to those palm oil fields. He's like that,
• 1:58:22
  Speaker 2: I guess, exactly.
• 1:58:24
  Speaker 4: Exactly, so he was actually listening to her, which is
• 1:58:27
  Speaker 4: quite unusual. So yeah, by four point five.
• 1:58:32
  Speaker 5: Can I give to Nippos to Viola Davis?
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 4: Oh my god, oh gosh. She is such a powerful, strong, confident,
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 4: beautiful woman. And I'm probably a bit biased because I
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 4: watched Woman King and then I read her book Finding Me.
• 1:58:49
  Speaker 4: I think that's the title, And I just feel like
• 1:58:52
  Speaker 4: I found another side of Viola that I can't let
• 1:58:54
  Speaker 4: go off so too because to her, of course it's okay.
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 4: She he was really the big sister, but also more
• 1:59:03
  Speaker 4: experienced soldier, powerful soldier, confident, but also empathetic, you know,
• 1:59:08
  Speaker 4: going back to get Nawi at the end and then
• 1:59:11
  Speaker 4: getting shot at that point. Of course. Now, I really
• 1:59:15
  Speaker 4: really loved Nawi young confidence, the scene where she pushed
• 1:59:19
  Speaker 4: the man who hit her, the one who was trying
• 1:59:22
  Speaker 4: to get married to her, right in front of her parents.
• 1:59:25
  Speaker 4: This is twenty twenty three, and I think they'll be
• 1:59:28
  Speaker 4: a handful of African women or African girls who can
• 1:59:31
  Speaker 4: actually fight an elderly person.
• 1:59:33
  Speaker 5: In front of their parents.
• 1:59:35
  Speaker 4: So her doing that in the eighteen hundred, big ups
• 1:59:38
  Speaker 4: to her rebellion. The point five is the King Gizer
• 1:59:43
  Speaker 4: because I really like John Boyega. He's of Nigerian origin,
• 1:59:48
  Speaker 4: so that was really good to see. And I think
• 1:59:50
  Speaker 4: he put in so much effort in trying to do
• 1:59:53
  Speaker 4: the right accent. And people have criticized him for this accent,
• 1:59:59
  Speaker 4: but I think that was a it's not easy to
• 2:00:02
  Speaker 4: I don't know where that accent is from. I don't
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 4: think it's not it's definitely not Nigerian. I don't know
• 2:00:07
  Speaker 4: if it's Beny Noir from New Day or Today's Dajome,
• 2:00:12
  Speaker 4: But anyway, I think he did make an effort in
• 2:00:15
  Speaker 4: speaking the right accent, but also because he supported Naniska
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 4: through it. So four point five, I think is.
• 2:00:20
  Speaker 3: What I give very nice.
• 2:00:22
  Speaker 2: I think I forgot to give my quarter nipple away,
• 2:00:24
  Speaker 2: so I'm going to give it to mister Purple.
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 3: Mister Purse.
• 2:00:28
  Speaker 4: I can't forget mister Pople.
• 2:00:31
  Speaker 3: Give us a Netflix series with mister purple.
• 2:00:34
  Speaker 2: Was he implied to be a eunuch because there's a
• 2:00:37
  Speaker 2: reference to men being some of the men in the
• 2:00:40
  Speaker 2: palace being eunis. And I'm honestly maybe filling in a
• 2:00:45
  Speaker 2: lot of blanks myself, but I was like, I wonder
• 2:00:47
  Speaker 2: if he's supposed to be a eunuch. I'm not sure. Anyway,
• 2:00:50
  Speaker 2: I love him no matter what.
• 2:00:52
  Speaker 3: That's the best.
• 2:00:53
  Speaker 2: Well, Frankie, thank you so much for joining us.
• 2:00:55
  Speaker 3: What a treat this has been.
• 2:00:57
  Speaker 2: Everyone read Ronky's piece about this movie and we'll link it,
• 2:01:02
  Speaker 2: of course, along with the other things we'd mentioned. We
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 2: link where can people follow you online and check out
• 2:01:11
  Speaker 2: anything else you want them to check out?
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 4: On Twitter at all your own care underscore and I
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 4: think you'll link it right, Yes, but yeah, I think
• 2:01:21
  Speaker 4: Twitter is the best place to find me crawling and
• 2:01:24
  Speaker 4: being quiet and tweeting about the books I need.
• 2:01:28
  Speaker 3: I love it. Yes, the best use of the internet possible, exactly.
• 2:01:33
  Speaker 3: You can find us all the regular places on Instagram
• 2:01:36
  Speaker 3: and Twitter. At Bechdel Cast. You can join our patreon
• 2:01:39
  Speaker 3: akamatreon at patreon dot com slash bectyl Cast, where for
• 2:01:44
  Speaker 3: five bucks a month you get two additional episodes every
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 3: single month. How about that this month we're.
• 2:01:50
  Speaker 2: Doing dolls coming all life.
• 2:01:54
  Speaker 3: We're doing life size, and we're doing Megan, So really
• 2:01:58
  Speaker 3: all killer, no filler on the major around this month.
• 2:02:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you can check out our merch at teapublic
• 2:02:05
  Speaker 2: dot com slash the Bechdel Cast, where you can find
• 2:02:09
  Speaker 2: all of your merchandising needs, all designed by one Jamie Loftus.
• 2:02:15
  Speaker 3: Wowoo, good for her. And with that, let's go. I mean,
• 2:02:23
  Speaker 3: if we want to have a light afternoon, you know,
• 2:02:25
  Speaker 3: just like tear shark teeth out of each other's shoulders.
• 2:02:29
  Speaker 2: That let's do that. Yes, okay, bye bye