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Negotiation and Healing with Edy Nathan · The Trauma Therapist

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  Speaker 1: Trauma Thepist podcast. Plus listeners can listen to episodes early
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  Speaker 1: and ad free right now. Become a Plus listener by
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  Speaker 1: going to Apple Podcasts searching for the Trauma Theverist podcast
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  Speaker 1: and signing up today. Welcome to the Trauma Nevers Podcast,
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  Speaker 1: a show about the incredible people dedicated to helping those
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  Speaker 1: who experienced trauma. My name is got macpherson, and my
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  Speaker 1: mission is to raise awareness of trauma and to inspire
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  Speaker 1: each of us to help those around us. So five
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  Speaker 1: or three, two and one are folks. Welcome back, Very
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  Speaker 1: excited to have back. Edie Nathan Edy welcome.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, it's so good to be here. Thanks for having me.
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  Speaker 1: You're welcome. So Edi is a certified sex therapist and
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  Speaker 1: thought leader specializing in grief, trauma, and sexuality. She works
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  Speaker 1: with businesses, universities, and long term care homes to help
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  Speaker 1: people understand how these areas filter through their lives and
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  Speaker 1: affect everything from creativity to productivity. Working together, she offers
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  Speaker 1: creative ways to deal with grief, trauma, and sexuality. Her book,
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  Speaker 1: It's Grief, The Dance of Self Discovery through Trauma and Loss,
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  Speaker 1: she examines the emotional and devastating impact of loss and trauma.
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  Speaker 1: She has a new book she's working on, which we're
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  Speaker 1: going to be talking about today. But Edie, welcome back.
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  Speaker 2: It's great to be here.
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  Speaker 1: Thanks, awesome. So remind our listeners before we get go
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  Speaker 1: in here where you're from originally and where you are currently.
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  Speaker 2: I'm originally from Chicago and still have family there, and
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  Speaker 2: I'm currently a little bit of a gypsy. So sometimes
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  Speaker 2: you might find me in the Berkshires in Massachusetts, and
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  Speaker 2: sometimes you might find me in a story of queens
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  Speaker 2: in New York, and sometimes you might find me down South.
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  Speaker 2: So I'm bebopping around.
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  Speaker 1: Awesome, Awesome. So you have a new book you're working on,
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  Speaker 1: before we get there, give our listeners kind of a
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  Speaker 1: sketch of how all this started for you, This interests,
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  Speaker 1: this passion.
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  Speaker 2: Grief and the conversation of grief is not often an
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  Speaker 2: invited guest, and you know, we often me included, we'll
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  Speaker 2: do everything to avoid it, push it down and say
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  Speaker 2: I am not dealing with this. But sadly, when I
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  Speaker 2: was twenty seven years old, I lost my partner and
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  Speaker 2: I was going into the corporate world as a trainer.
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  Speaker 2: And when I lost my partner, realized, wow, I have
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  Speaker 2: no one to talk to, no one understands what I'm
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  Speaker 2: going through. And I then decided to do a deep
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  Speaker 2: dive into how not only could I heal and they
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  Speaker 2: use heal, not healing or heal to heal as a
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  Speaker 2: means of getting over, but learning to live with the
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  Speaker 2: loss in my life. And because of Paul's death, I
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  Speaker 2: just changed the whole trajectory of my life and became
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  Speaker 2: a therapist. And then realized, my gosh, people are coming
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  Speaker 2: in and they're grieving, but they're not just grieving about
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  Speaker 2: the loss of a loved one, or if they are,
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  Speaker 2: you know what's happening. There's complications and those complications are
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  Speaker 2: often because there's been trauma. So that then that led
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  Speaker 2: me to another deep dive looking into trauma and complex trauma,
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  Speaker 2: trauma and how the duplicity of trauma and grief love
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  Speaker 2: to dance with one another. And as a therapist, realized, okay,
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  Speaker 2: so there's a whole sexual piece to this. So then
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  Speaker 2: became a sex therapist and now I talk about the
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  Speaker 2: three things that people don't want to talk about, grief,
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  Speaker 2: sex and trauma.
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  Speaker 1: I was just saying to myself, I mean, it's not
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  Speaker 1: just grief, but people don't want to talk about and
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  Speaker 1: sex too, So all right, how is it that you
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  Speaker 1: are able to and we're going to talk about the book,
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  Speaker 1: but we're bringing up all these things. How is it
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  Speaker 1: that you have the what, the courage, the strength, the audacity,
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  Speaker 1: the willingness to explore these topics that many of us
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  Speaker 1: don't want to talk about.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, we probably don't have enough time on this show
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  Speaker 2: to even go into that. Suffice it to say that
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  Speaker 2: I'm curious and that I've had enough pain in my
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  Speaker 2: life that I don't want other people to have to
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  Speaker 2: walk around with the pain that they just keep swallowing.
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  Speaker 2: And what I've learned is that when you step into
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  Speaker 2: the pain, when you are curious about it, when and
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  Speaker 2: you say okay, I'm going to face you rather than
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  Speaker 2: swallow all that's going on, that it actually there's a
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  Speaker 2: there's there's a mitigation of the pain. And the reason
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  Speaker 2: that the first book is called The Dance of Self
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  Speaker 2: Discovery is because it is a dance. And I once
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  Speaker 2: once the realization came, oh, you know what, I can't
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  Speaker 2: fight this because every time I fight it, it gets bigger.
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  Speaker 2: But let me partner with it and learn about it
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  Speaker 2: be curious about it, which you know is often is
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  Speaker 2: a little bit about this next book, which I'm not
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  Speaker 2: ready to talk about here yet, but just to say that, oh,
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  Speaker 2: when we when we invite the grief in, when we
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  Speaker 2: invite the curiosity of what is going on here with
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  Speaker 2: this grief, with this trauma, with my with my sexual driver,
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  Speaker 2: and how has all of that been affected because of
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  Speaker 2: the losses in my life? And you know, the book
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  Speaker 2: is not just about the loss of a loved one.
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  Speaker 2: It is about the losses that we have in our lives.
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  Speaker 2: And those losses can also be the loss of the self.
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  Speaker 1: All Right, So moving on here, there's the project you're
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  Speaker 1: working on. How are we going to talk about that?
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  Speaker 1: What is it?
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  Speaker 2: This is a brand new topic and people have not
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  Speaker 2: heard of this in the context from which I, you know,
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  Speaker 2: deliver it. Okay, So it's called sexual grief, and I'm
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  Speaker 2: calling it the sexual grief effect. The sexual grief effect
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  Speaker 2: is when someone has had a developmental sexual trauma, and
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  Speaker 2: developmental sexual trauma means anywhere on one's timeline, like they
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  Speaker 2: were unwanted, or they had a really bad first sexual
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  Speaker 2: spiritarience or aging or men a rectile dysfunction for women,
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  Speaker 2: menopause disabilities, the timeline just from birth until we're no
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  Speaker 2: longer here. I look at that timeline as one piece
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  Speaker 2: of where sexual grief impacts one's ability to live fully,
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  Speaker 2: and it impacts the ability to have relationships, It impacts
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  Speaker 2: the ability to be in the body fully. What happens
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  Speaker 2: in the sexual grief effect is that it doesn't just
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  Speaker 2: hit the developmental piece. It also hits a piece when
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  Speaker 2: someone has been sexually traumatized from a predatory event. So
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  Speaker 2: I'm looking at both predatory events and developmental experiences and
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  Speaker 2: what each of these events and experiences, what happens with
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  Speaker 2: them is they cause one to feel as if they're
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  Speaker 2: held hostage and they can't live their lives fully, can't
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  Speaker 2: get a job, can't learn, can't be intimate, and it
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  Speaker 2: takes away those those primary passions or even the belief
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  Speaker 2: in oneself. And what this project is is teaching people
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  Speaker 2: how to deal with the hostage taker, the sexual grief effect,
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  Speaker 2: and become their own hostage negotiators. And I know that
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  Speaker 2: using the word hostage right now, we're living in a
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  Speaker 2: world where hostage is a really tough word. But when
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  Speaker 2: talking to people who've got the developmental hits that I
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  Speaker 2: just talked about in the predatory events and the use
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  Speaker 2: of that word, it sounds like you feel like these
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  Speaker 2: events and experiences have left you feeling like you're a hostage.
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  Speaker 2: It's like a light bulb goes off. It's like, ah,
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  Speaker 2: you're talking directly to me, because that's how I feel.
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  Speaker 1: All right, let's get specific here. Give us an example
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  Speaker 1: of how these experiences or an experience might keep someone hostives,
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  Speaker 1: might keep them from living their lives in any matter
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  Speaker 1: of ways.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, so let's look at the developmental peace first. The
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  Speaker 2: developmental piece might be religious sexual trauma. In a religious
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  Speaker 2: sexual trauma, it's a developmental hit because nobody is purposely
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  Speaker 2: wanting to hurt that child, but what they are teaching
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  Speaker 2: that child is to have shame about their bodies. Don't touch,
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  Speaker 2: don't be sexually, don't explore yourself, don't allow yourself the
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  Speaker 2: freedoms to understand who you are in terms of your
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  Speaker 2: gender identity, and you become locked, you become imprisoned. And
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  Speaker 2: so these many of these people who are coming out
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  Speaker 2: of these very religious cultural homes find themselves feeling that
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  Speaker 2: they've been held hostage, they've been told that, and these
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  Speaker 2: these are true messages that if they masturbate, they're either
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  Speaker 2: going to die or something's going to fall off. And
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  Speaker 2: those messages, when you're four and six and nine and ten,
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  Speaker 2: stay with you. And so what happens is it's hard
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  Speaker 2: to explore, it's hard to understand the self, and the
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  Speaker 2: sexual driver shuts down. The sexual driver though a Freudian term,
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  Speaker 2: I'm not using it in that way, but it is
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  Speaker 2: one's lust for life. And it's not just I'm not
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  Speaker 2: talking about sex. I'm talking about how you live. So
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  Speaker 2: what I help people do? They say, Okay, let me
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  Speaker 2: first understand that I'm going to label this this is
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  Speaker 2: sexual grief, and it is the effect of the sexual grief.
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  Speaker 2: It's a natural response to what happened. I'm shut down,
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  Speaker 2: I'm stuck, I'm trapped. So they talk to the part
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  Speaker 2: of themselves that's stuck and trapped. That's the perhaps the
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  Speaker 2: religious sexual trauma that's happened to them. And in talking
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  Speaker 2: to it, they first become curious, which is the first
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  Speaker 2: stage to a good hostage negotiation. I call it curiosity
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  Speaker 2: and awe. They then go into empathy because it's really
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  Speaker 2: hard to have empathy to the thing that's hurt you
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  Speaker 2: or entrapped you. And so it is an empathy energy.
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  Speaker 2: And this is not linear, but we do start out
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  Speaker 2: with the curiosity, and we do go to the empathy.
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  Speaker 2: And the third piece to this, and there's six altogether,
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  Speaker 2: but these major three pieces is developing a rapport and
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  Speaker 2: trust and so you begin to really have these conversations
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  Speaker 2: with the part of you that is holding on to
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  Speaker 2: the sexual grief effect, this natural response, and you are
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  Speaker 2: finding ways out we.
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  Speaker 1: Can I mean, I can imagine as you're speaking, how
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  Speaker 1: someone who's gone through that that type of sexual trauma
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  Speaker 1: would kind of worden off that part of them right,
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  Speaker 1: it's brought me so much potentially shame, they don't even
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  Speaker 1: want to talk about it. And you could think about
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  Speaker 1: other ways people would then deal with this part of
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  Speaker 1: themselves that's been closed off, right, facting out addictions, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
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  Speaker 1: That's right, Okay, what about another example?
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  Speaker 2: That was another? So that's that's one example I.
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  Speaker 1: Wanted to go there. Hold on a second, how revalent
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  Speaker 1: is that type of trauma.
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  Speaker 2: It's I don't have a percentage, but it's more prevalent.
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  Speaker 1: Than we would think we would think.
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  Speaker 2: And along the developmental timeline, we've got period poverty for
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  Speaker 2: young young women who didn't know that they were going
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  Speaker 2: to have their periods and sadly think upon getting their
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  Speaker 2: periods that they are bleeding to death. And what ends
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  Speaker 2: up happening is every month they go through that trauma
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  Speaker 2: and their bodies. As you know, Besil Vanderkook often talks
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  Speaker 2: about keep the score and they're just waiting and because
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  Speaker 2: the trauma is not dealt with, and then if there
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  Speaker 2: actually is financial difficulties in being able to get the
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  Speaker 2: the appliances or the things needed, you know, during their
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  Speaker 2: monthly periods, if they don't have the money to do it,
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  Speaker 2: oftentimes girls will miss school and that's where the period
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  Speaker 2: poverty is also enhanced. And then we're talking about the shame,
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  Speaker 2: and the shame goes into this is something that's happening
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  Speaker 2: to this young girl and she's not prepared and she loathes.
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  Speaker 2: She is really filled with self loathing and discussed around
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  Speaker 2: something that should be beautiful, and there is a sexual
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  Speaker 2: grief effect and she is held hostage by this every
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  Speaker 2: single month. And the women who finally deal with this,
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  Speaker 2: some gynecologists will help some of these women really deal
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  Speaker 2: with their shame around it, but often it's just disregarded
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  Speaker 2: and women don't understand why. They may accordingly have something
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  Speaker 2: called vaginismus, which is the clamping down of the of
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  Speaker 2: the vaginal muscles, and it makes penetration difficult, if not impossible,
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  Speaker 2: And sometimes there's something medically wrong, but sometimes it's an
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  Speaker 2: emotional piece.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I'm just thinking that this experience, it's
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  Speaker 1: just fraught with these landmines of silence and shame, and
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  Speaker 1: you can't talk about it, and even in the doctor's
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  Speaker 1: office if they even ask about it.
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  Speaker 2: So okay, So that's the developmental If we look at predatory,
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  Speaker 2: we can look at any anyone scenario that is of
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  Speaker 2: a predatory nature. And I say predatory so that you know,
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  Speaker 2: anyone who's listening, you know, will not necessarily feel the
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  Speaker 2: overwhelm of anything that I might describe. But any kind
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  Speaker 2: of predatory event which is not is it is a
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  Speaker 2: situation that does not happen by choice. A predatory event
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  Speaker 2: is something that is done to you and you have
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  Speaker 2: not made a choice about this. And it happens to boys,
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  Speaker 2: it happens to girls, it happens to people who are older,
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  Speaker 2: but there is usually an age range where it is
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  Speaker 2: most prevalent, which is often between the ages of seven
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  Speaker 2: and sixteen, and those predatory events cause so much harm
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  Speaker 2: in self esteem, in desire, in learning, in cognitive abilities,
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  Speaker 2: in focus, and children are often misdiagnosed, Oh they've got
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  Speaker 2: add Oh they're depressed, and they're just medicated, rather than
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  Speaker 2: actually doing a deeper dive and asking the questions, has
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  Speaker 2: anyone ever touched you inappropriately? Did anything ever happen to you?
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  Speaker 2: Because because the doctors don't want to know and they
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  Speaker 2: don't want to do the deeper dive. Often I'm not
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  Speaker 2: I'm not blasting doctors, sure, but we you know, and
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  Speaker 2: the you know. Certainly our school systems, the teachers are
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  Speaker 2: supposed to be aware, but oftentimes if there are, it
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  Speaker 2: will come to multiple absences versus really tracking something in
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  Speaker 2: terms of learning within the classroom.
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  Speaker 1: So from an experience like that and the one you
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  Speaker 1: mentioned previously, obviously there's the trauma and everything that involves.
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  Speaker 1: But we're also bringing in the grief piece here. So
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  Speaker 1: how does that come into play with what you're just
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  Speaker 1: talking about now.
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  Speaker 2: Well, when anybody is held hostage, there's grief what's interesting
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  Speaker 2: is the the PA, the American Psychological Association, did a
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  Speaker 2: big study on hostage survivors and if you look at
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  Speaker 2: the list of words the descriptions that the hostage survivors
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  Speaker 2: depicted as how they felt, it absolutely aligns with anyone
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  Speaker 2: who is a developmental sexual grief survivor survivalist or a
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  Speaker 2: predatory you know, sexual has had a predatory event that
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  Speaker 2: they've survived. So what we're seeing is that the grief
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  Speaker 2: is very much aligned with anyone whose grief is a
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  Speaker 2: big piece just across the board for any hostage survivalist.
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  Speaker 2: And I say survivalist because I think that we use
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  Speaker 2: the word survivor so often that it loses its meaning.
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  Speaker 2: And so what I will do often is I will
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  Speaker 2: find different ways to express what's going what's going on,
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  Speaker 2: And a survivalist means that you're you're standing up in
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  Speaker 2: the face of the event or the experience and you're
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  Speaker 2: moving with it, and it's not something you get over.
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  Speaker 2: It is something that you learn to integrate, and then
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  Speaker 2: you learn about who you are and you grow your
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  Speaker 2: personal identity, you grow your sense of self and your
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  Speaker 2: sexual driver that that driver that allows you to have
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  Speaker 2: that lust for life, that that hunger to learn comes
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  Speaker 2: alive again.
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  Speaker 1: Is you said than done? Right? Oh?
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  Speaker 2: It is? It is? It is. Yeah, it's I'm not
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  Speaker 2: saying that this is easy. I am saying no, of
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  Speaker 2: course not. And that's why I've been lately. I've been grappling.
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  Speaker 2: And I'd love to hear your thoughts on this with
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  Speaker 2: the idea of what is healing, because I think that
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  Speaker 2: that so often in my world as a clinician, that
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  Speaker 2: the word healing has meant to some it's all better,
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  Speaker 2: and it's not all better.
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  Speaker 1: It's right, right, right? I think yeah, I mean I
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  Speaker 1: think it for me. It depends on the person and
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  Speaker 1: their situation. I mean, the first thing that came to
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  Speaker 1: your mind is the first thing that came to my mind.
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  Speaker 1: Abu said that was well. Healing to me means so
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  Speaker 1: about a year and a half ago, I went for
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  Speaker 1: a divorce that was really hard, and for me, healing
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  Speaker 1: in that constant, in that context would mean not being
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  Speaker 1: held hostage to the weight of that event and everything
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  Speaker 1: it means to me because I still am, I very
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  Speaker 1: much still am. I'm still dealing with the X, Y
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  Speaker 1: and Z of the intricacies of that coming out of
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  Speaker 1: nowhere and dealing with that on a day to day
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  Speaker 1: basis and everything it means. So you know, healing wouldn't
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  Speaker 1: mean that it never happened, or I would be never.
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  Speaker 2: You forget it, Oh, oh I'm healed. I've forgotten no, right.
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  Speaker 1: But I think I think, you know, we each have
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  Speaker 1: maybe different gauges at different stages of our life where
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  Speaker 1: that's going to be defined differently. Oh.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think that the sexual grief effect will
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  Speaker 2: will consistently be defined and redefined. The notion here is
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  Speaker 2: giving people the agency to have to have the knowledge
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  Speaker 2: to say, oh, I'm going to be my own negotiator here,
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  Speaker 2: and I'm going to negotiate with the things that take
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  Speaker 2: me down. And what's taken me down right now is
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  Speaker 2: this memory or this pop in memory. And I'm going
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  Speaker 2: to take a time in moment, and this time in
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  Speaker 2: moment is to be curious or to have a little
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  Speaker 2: bit of empathy, because I'm being really hard on myself
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  Speaker 2: right now because I think, you know, because going out
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  Speaker 2: on a date or having going out with friends, or
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  Speaker 2: going for that job interview, I'm having a hard time
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  Speaker 2: believing that I can do this. So let me just
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  Speaker 2: stop for a moment, have a little bit of empathy,
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  Speaker 2: be curious about Okay, so what's the messaging here. Okay,
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to negotiate with my hostage taker right now
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  Speaker 2: because these are old messages and that message doesn't have
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  Speaker 2: to hurt me right now. I can deal with it.
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  Speaker 2: I can talk with you, I can be curious with you,
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  Speaker 2: and I can say I have another part of me
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  Speaker 2: that's developing and growing, and that's the part of me
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  Speaker 2: that I'm going to nurture right now. And it doesn't
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  Speaker 2: mean that I'm going to ignore the fear or ignore
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  Speaker 2: the fact that my mouth has just like gone dry
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  Speaker 2: and my throat is like just not saying the words.
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to remember what I've gone through, who I
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  Speaker 2: am in this moment, and if I can't do something,
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: that's okay. And that's also negotiating with the hostage taker.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. I mean, that's so powerful. The
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: idea that there can even be healing within these contexts
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: for many of us is like what, yeah, yeah, I
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: can have an agency. I can be curious about that.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: I can't even think about that. I cannot imagine I
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: did not experience any type of sexual developmental trauma that
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: we're talking about here, editory and so forth. To me,
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: I can't imagine. I was bullied when I was a kid,
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: which did jack me up and impact my life in
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: many ways. But the idea that you know, you're presenting this,
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: I can see a lot of us, a lot of people.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: I can even feel wait a minute, I can look
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: at it in this way. I can't be curious about
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: this and negotiate that to me is a huge that's
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: mind blowing.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: And it's not, and it's not instead of any work
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: that anyone is doing here. Okay, this is a yes.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: And so I don't want anyone to think, oh, well,
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: Edie's talking about this and she's saying this is the
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: way to do this. No, I'm saying, whatever you're doing,
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: keep doing it. This is a yes. Had you becoming
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: your negotiator and having the agency to say, you know what,
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be curious as terrified as I am.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be curious. Hey, okay, you know right
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: now my mouth has gone dry. And the minute your
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: mouth goes dry, instead of saying okay, I'm going to
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: ignore this because then you know what, the mouth goes
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: dry and then you start to sweat because you've ignored it,
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: and then the anxiety starts, and then the heart starts pumping.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: Then you go into like you want to you're freezing
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: your you're flying away, and it's it's it's just all
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: of the reactions to trauma occur. What if you start
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: to identify, I know what my taells are, dry mouth,
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: I start to get itchy, I start to think about
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: something that has nothing to do with what's going on.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: If those are my tells of I am about to
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: really not feel good, I'm just going to start to
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: have a pop a pop in memory. That's the moment
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: of oh wait a minute, hold on, let me be curious. Okay,
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: dry mouth, what is what's going on with you right now?
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: What are you afraid of? I'm right here with you.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: I'm going to just get a glass of water. I'm
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: going to make sure that my swallow reflexes are working,
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: or I'm going to do something like this where I'm
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: going to concentrate and refocus on just trying to feel
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: my thumb print. And you are actually negotiating in that moment,
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: in the.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: Sense that you're what your your prefrontal cortex is online.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: You were oh yeah, you're you know, absolutely, you're aware.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: Your prefrontal cortex is online, You're you're, you know, you're,
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: you're Usually what's happening when there's a trum trauma response,
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: your your brain is in freeze mode. Your prefrontal cortex
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: is saying danger, danger, danger, and you're like, yeah, I
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: got a run, I gotta run. But before that happens,
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: there are often tells that happen in the body, and
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: if we become curious about what those tells are, whether
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: it's dry mouth. I used to have horrific anxiety. My
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: sense of smell would become stronger when I was about
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: to go into a really bad panic attack, and I
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: started to track it, and I started to be curious about, Oh,
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm starting to smell onions, like that's really strange.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: Oh I'm about to have a panic attack, because I
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: could track it. And that's where curiosity comes in. And
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: what I found is if I paid attention and I
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: was curious, and I could then say, oh, okay, so
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: let me just breathe, let me ground myself, let me
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: say to myself, what is caught using the panic is
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: something that I'm imagining and it's really not happening now,
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: and I can do something about this and that curiosity
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: versus I'm ignoring this because whenever I tried to ignore
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: the panic, you know what happened, it got bigger and
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: bigger and bigger. But if I said, oh wait a minute,
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: it's happening right now, I'm going to pay attention, and
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: I became curious. And at that point I wasn't even
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: talking about these negotiations strategies. I was able to actually
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: find my own agency to calm myself down.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: Remind everyone we're speaking with eating and eighth and dio
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: is we get ready to close down here? So in
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: broad sense, what are we talking about here? For listeners.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: Broad sense the pain that you're in. If you are
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: in pain because of a developmental trauma along your timeline
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: or a predatory event, the natural response you have is
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: yours and you have a right to it. But if
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: it's taking you down and interrupting your life, there is
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: a way to interrupt its agency by creating your own
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: agency and it can't hold you hostage anymore. When you
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: learn the negotiation strategies that I have available for you,
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: and if you go onto my website sexualgrief dot com
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: you'll find the six strategies two becoming a hostage negotiator.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: Right, you will have that. Ah, listen up here at
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: the show notes page at the Trauma there is podcast
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: dot com. Love having you on here, love being here.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: Thank you. I appreciate it. I appreciate your passion. Uh.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: And you have this this way about you that is,
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: you know, I get off the I get off the
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: call with you and I'm like, that's the person I
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: want to have as my therapist, you know. Anyway, I
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: really appreciate you, appreciate you being here. We'll be in
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: touch absolutely, all right, take care, okay, bye,