Latest / Senior Pet Talk | for dogs + cats / 15. Age Is Not a Disease: Rethinking Senior Pet Care with Dr. Hunter (Part 2)

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15. Age Is Not a Disease: Rethinking Senior Pet Care with Dr. Hunter (Part 2) · Senior Pet Talk | for dogs + cats

• Amanda Steffen: You are listening to Senior Pet Talk, the show where we combine Western and Chinese medicine to give senior dog and cat parents the knowledge, the clarity, and the confidence to make sure that your pets' senior years are their best years yet. I'm Dr. Amanda Stefan. Let's get started. Welcome back to part two. I am Dr. Stefan here with Dr. Hunter, one of my good friends. And so we are going to continue our conversation today. He now runs and owns a general practice facility that also does urgent care. So we're going to get his opinion on a lot of senior pet takes. Okay, let's do it. All right. So the next question that I had was where do you wish that you had more tools for seeing your pets? Like where do you feel like sometimes we run out of options and be nice that we had more? I think a lot of tools would be more for at home. Like the things that owners have to navigate at home, like with especially with larger ones. Yeah, we have like the the little slings to pick ⁓ up with, but I mean things to help with the stairs and walking around the house. We have the runners and all, but maybe I mean I think we probably just need to investigate it more and let them know about it 'cause we just kinda give them medications, but we don't talk about the whole lifestyle change. But things to like help with pets that slip over helping pets get downstairs, getting in the car pretty much everyday life. Things that like was you don't think about. Like you open the car door, your dogs used to jump in, they They're not gonna do that now. So we need to focus on that. And when they do it, it's it's a task for ⁓ now. It's not like they just they can do it or they do it and they're recovering from it. So things that just help with everyday life from dolls. Going outside, going upstairs, getting in the bed or not slipping. Yeah, yeah. And I think sometimes even the things that we do have, they pets don't like. Like I've had clients who have pets that they get a wheelchair for and they get it fitted and they get it customated and everything. And I had one client had a great day and like he refused to use it. He would just not use it at all and then fall outside. And it's very hard to carry a great day. And aren't those chairs pretty expensive? They're very expensive. So maybe we should maybe even educate the clients. There's gotta be a way to like kinda get the dogs acclimated to it. I mean, it's probably harder on bigger dogs too, 'cause I mean, you watch the movies and all there's always like a little dock and it's zipping around in it. Right. What's that? What's that? Secret life of pets. That little doctrine, but how often do you see a great dane? Right. I've never even heard of a great dane in one. I can only imagine that dog trying to get around it. Yeah, right. And then you have like a little dots in our cat. Like you can just pick them up and carry them around. So it makes life a lot easier. But I know I have a lot of clients who change a lot of their life around their pet. Like they now sleep on the couch every day because their pet can't go upstairs anymore. So they just have the aqua maintenance to sleeping in her planner on the couch with them. I've had that a lot. And it's probably we even when they bring in little puppies, we probably should just mention it to them. Hey, your dog's not going to be able to go up the stairs forever. And you're gonna have to get ready for these things and maybe even just have them kinda just kinda lightly researching things as far as how they're gonna do it when they get to that point. If they're Lucky enough to get to that point with their pet. Yeah. And I think that's a big component too. It's like nobody wants to think that their pet's a senior. They don't want think about those harder years and those older years. But like one of the things I teach so much is preparation is the most important part. We're not as scared of things if we know more about them. So like having options to go into whenever we need that is really helpful to make that transition into seniorhood a lot easier. Right. So it's not like we're planning on them being you know, immobile but at the same time having plans in place for what happens if we need to do that. Yeah. Yeah. How clients react when you tell ⁓ that they're pets, a senior pet. You say clients like your cuss word. Yeah. They look at me like I just told ⁓ they were older or hey, look, I just found the gray hair. Yeah. And they they're in denial a lot of times. They nobody wants to hear that. No. So but I mean we have to let ⁓ know. Yeah. 'Cause they're I mean, I have clients like, no way, he's on the ten. Yeah. I'm like That's not a ten year old person we're talking about. You remember and and like the big thing is seniors they can live over half their life as seniors. Yeah. We have a definition for it, but it's not reality because we don't know when they're gonna pass, right? Yeah. Like the I what was it? Probably twenty years ago now that we had the lady at the clinic we used to work at had Callie, that calico cat that used to board with us since she was twenty five. That cat was so old and She like she did great. I would have never guessed that. Yeah. She was around my age. Yeah. I remember you always telling me she was my elder. Yeah. I was like seventeen, so she absolutely was your elder. But I mean that I mean she was a senior at ten or eleven, right? Yeah. Twenty years ago it was probably even earlier. And she still lived to be twenty five years old. Yeah, she did great. Yeah. I think that's awesome. So all right. How do you talk about and describe quality of life in senior pets with the pet parents. Ooh. Well, usually more times than not, honestly, they bring it up to me. They know it. You'll see it. They want to talk about it. Sometimes they may just give you a look and you know it's time to talk about it, but more times than not, they will mention it to me. They may just kind of throw it out there and I'll like stop. Let's talk more about this right now since you put it out there. And I we just talk about, hey, we know they're not gonna live forever. We're seeing some things that not not saying it's time now, but we need to maybe prepare. So, I mean, depends on where we are in that conversation. It depends on the condition. And it just depends on where their where the owner is mentally. I've had some owners where I just have to let ⁓ know, we're gonna mention it now. I know now is not the time. We can talk on the phone later. You can come back and we can talk about it a little more. We don't have to do that right now, but we need to go on and address the elephant in the room and once again prepare ourselves. So I usually let them bring it up unless it's one of those things where they just they refuse to or you know they're holding in and you have to. But yeah. More times than not, they will start the conversation. At wi at least with me. Yeah, that's good. That means that they trust you. So that's a good thing. Well, look at it. Yeah. So and I yeah, I think Anytime we talk about a chronic disease, right? If we diagnose a cancer, if we diagnose even severe osteoarthritis, or if we're diagnosing like dementia, we should open that conversation to say, like, hey, this may wind up being a quality of life conversation. And I'm not saying, like you said, I'm not saying we need to talk about it right now, but I am saying for you to think about it a little bit and to start, you know, thinking about what the non-negotiables are for you with Max, right? Like, is your non-negotiable that he doesn't want to go on his walks anymore. And that's the moment where you say, like, he doesn't have a good quality of life. Or like, you know, he can't chase the swirls in the yard anymore, like he wants to do. Or like if he stops eating, you know, for like one of my dogs, Mabel, like if she stops eating, it's a big problem. Cause the only time she's ever done that was when she had a foreign body. One time. So like otherwise she eats every single meal. So if she's got appetite concerns, then to me that's gonna tell me her quality of life has gone down. I think that's really important too. Yeah. And it's not selfish for the owner to think about their quality of life. Like you said, the owner's a change in their lifestyle. They're sleeping on couches and things like that. Say this person has a bad back and they can't sleep on the couch or they can't lift the dog, ultimately their quality of life is going to affect their Pets quality of life. If you can't lift them to get them outside, what's gonna happen? They're not gonna go outside, and then what's gonna happen? They're gonna go in the house. They're gonna get urine stalled in and all that stuff. So they it's not I always like to bring up the owner's quality of life too. You have to have a able, willing owner to keep up with the pet, because if not, you're just gonna kind of like drag it out, and then eventually you're gonna get to the point where you have a A worn down owner, a worn down pet is probably is suffering more. So I'll mention the owner's quality of life and you have to evaluate the owner too and say, Hump, like you said, you're non negotiables, but also what are you willing to do? Yeah. Yeah. And it gets really important. And like, I mean, they said someone we're stressed, right? So they know when like we're having a hard time or we're stressed out or our cup is not full. to be able to take care of them. So I think that's really important. And just having the open, I think just sometimes people will continue and pet parents will continue to give. And they think just because we do have an option to treat that we should always continue to go down the line. Like for great pet parents who really love their pets and like have the financial ability are gonna continue to say, Yeah, if we can do something, why not do it? But that's not always the right answer. Right. Like sometimes it's appropriate for their quality of life or her quality of life to say it's yes, there is a chemo option, but are we really sho should we do that? Right? Like Molly was diagnosed with a tumor on her tongue and the first option they gave me was to cut her tongue out at seventeen years old. I was like, That's not an option for her. Like I'm not doing that. Yeah, 'cause she had to say and then what? Right. You do it and then what? What do we what do we go from here? And how is your pet gonna be? Like What's their last few months like? 'Cause have to remember too, a lot of these treatments, they're not curing them. It's just kind of delaying the inevitable. And also like, what's their life quality of life gonna be like during that time? Is it gonna be worth it? Right. And I think us opening the conversation a little bit, like sometimes gives people permission to think about it because I think people always feel a little bit of guilt as the caregiver that like Well, I can't think about that because, you know, the vet has it brought it up or something like that. So just to say, like, I'm opening the door right now to a quality of life conversation whenever it needs to happen. I'm just telling you that at this stage it is completely fair to start thinking about their quality of life and tracking those numbers and and seeing where we're starting to decline. And I think sometimes I see people like audibly take a breath. You take a weight out their shoulders more times than not when you do that. Yeah. They really they it's almost like they just like, thank you so much. I didn't want to do it, but thank you for bringing it up now. You open the door, let's go through it. Yeah. So Okay. So obviously I practice integrative medicine. You've known me through all those those wavelengths before I was a medic. And then now, you know, working my way through Western and Chinese medicine. So from your seat as a GP winner, if you would you ever think about referring to an integrated veterinarian, what modalities do you feel like you've seen or heard or like think about and seem intrigued by or? Ooh. That's funny because I'm just thinking about like how I went through my career as a vet, because you know, in veterinary school, at least when I was in veterinary school in the dark ages, we didn't talk too much about integrated medicine. So you only do what you know. Yeah. And I mean, I looked at a lot of that stuff, I'm like, ⁓ man, that's just witchcraft. Right. I'm like, yeah. But then as I kind of went through and I saw some, I was like, okay, I start to see some acupuncture. I see I work at a play facility that did acupuncture. I mean, we got people coming in on the regular. I'm seeing the same people. They wouldn't be coming back this many times if it wasn't working. Yeah. So I said, Maybe it is something to this. And so I started kind of watching a little more and kinda going to C E and learning about it and said, Okay, so it's something to that. Laser therapy. Yeah. Well, we had that and I learned that first hand because I mean I was sore and I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna try it on me. So I know it works. So then I kind Check the box for laser therapy. Just kind of seen. I'm like, once again, people were coming back. And I was blessed enough to work at a facility that offered that stuff. And even the herbs. The funniest story with the herbs was the, everybody knows Unan Bayao. Now the the anti-bleeding herb, Bill. I was doing a surgery on the dog. I was doing a mastectomy. And you couldn't tell me nothing. I thought I was the best surgeon in the world. I was like, look at this. I'm going through this. It's not even bleeding that much. I'm just I'm so meticulous and all. And my tech was like, You realize this dog's been on Una and Baya for a week now. And I'm like, hmm. I wonder if that's what's doing it. Of course I didn't tell her that. I was just no, it's just me. I'm just great like that. But after that, I was like, it might be something to these herbs too. So I started checking into those and just seeing like how animals are responding to it, seeing repeat clim I mean Clients are coming back for this stuff. So obviously it works. So I would say my journey was just me going from thinking that it was just snake oil to actually seeing, seeing is believing for me. So after that, I started seeing like it working. I would say I would start with the things that I knew. Yeah. Sometimes the things you know, it might not quite be getting where you wanna want ⁓ to be. Then I start incorporating some of the integrative medicine in there. Yeah. And sometimes clients would bring it up to me and I was like, Okay, yeah, I believe in it. It works. Let's get you on that plan. Yeah. So I'll let the clients drive that if they want to seek it before I think it's time because I think it has a place. Yeah. So you probably you probably jump on it more than like faster than I do. Right. Just because I mean, that's what you do. You know way more about it than I do. But hey, hanging around you, I'll learn more about it. There you go. Yeah. I think Western medicine is Fantastic, obviously. Like if something needs surgery, it needs surgery, right? But it's more to me, Western medicine is more reactive and Chinese medicine can be a little bit more proactive. Like we can actually try to keep things at bay and keep things in a good place. Like, yeah, sure, my patients that have arthritis get anti inflammatories, but also the acupuncture helps to kind of maintain them from having flares and and help, you know. with a different modality of that, right? And then we also do, like everyone uses the Union Bagal stuff. Like it's it we all have it in hospitals. Yeah, when I first got out, that was it wasn't like I mean, I was looking, I'm like, wow, they use this at specialties now. Yeah. Yeah. So like everyone already has some there's some little parts of Chinese medicine that Western medicine has been like, ⁓ yeah, this is real. This is fine. And then like I learned from you, I'm pretty sure, when we would do C sections for the needle between the nostrils. Yeah. That's an acupuncture point. G B T six. I just knew it was a song where you stick a needle and then she she was telling me about why you're sticking it there. I'm like, I just know it works. Yeah, it's a respiratory like point. It makes them take a breath, right? But it is an acupuncture point. So and now we're starting to put sedation in the top of the head and another acupuncture point and We're talking a lot more about gut microbiome, which has been something that's been going on in Chinese medicine for millennia. And like we're now thinking, like, ⁓ maybe there is like a gut brain connection, a gut kidney connection for cats. Like there's all these connections that we didn't really think about. And I think now that we're getting a little bit more into whole body type of medicine, like those things are all coming up too. I mean, it's just like us as kids. Our parents always told us to eat our vegetables. Mm-hmm. Yeah, we don't want to eat any vegetables and we're healthy kids and all, like you said, you're not thinking about that. But then you get older. Now we're like, we better eat this stuff because it actually does make a difference. And so that's kinda how I I changed. I was like I'm seeing it now that I'm older, but before I'm like, it's just witchcraft. Yeah. Yeah. It's not just witchcraft. It's not. But I think being open minded to it is the best thing that I can always ask for ⁓ Western vets is just like things change. Like medicine always changes, right? Western medicine is always changing. We didn't have monoclonal antibodies when you or I were in school. They weren't things. So now that's now look. Yeah. Game change. We can treat so many things. So I think it's important for us to just know like things are always gonna change in medicine and to be open minded about it is the best thing we could do, right? Yeah. Okay. So I kind of touched on like how you're transitioned that. So if a client asks you about supplements like joint supports, omegas, dementia support, what is kind of your go-to spiel on like what they should look for, how they know it's trustworthy, what to be weary of, those types of things. Well, like pretty much I just keep a couple that I will name to them, like that I know for sure. I tell ⁓ I know these work. you might find something else. You can bring it to me and I'll read it and see if it's a lot of times what these things will have in them is just excessive stuff. I'm like, yeah, this is great that it has this in there, but d does your pet really need it? So, I mean, I have my few that I keep in house. And then I have like certain ones that I even like that they can get, maybe if they don't want what I have, because a lot of times clients do think that you're just selling stuff. So I was like, fine, go get this one. I'm not selling this one. Just buy it and see if you like it. But store's not gonna know I sent you. They're not gonna reach it. Yeah, I'm like, I'm not getting paid off of this whatsoever. I like to have some in a house that I believe in. Yeah. And just like you can just leave out with. But I do, so I have my few that I like, and then I have some that they can get over the counter. Yeah. Or they can order that I pretty much have no profit from. And then I just kind of like let them know these are the ones, this is why I like it. If they have one that I don't know about, I just tell ⁓ send me the label, I'll read it and see. And more times than not a lot of ⁓ they have all of the basic stuff in there, but then they're pushing something that I might even know about, I haven't heard of, and so I let ⁓ know. I don't know, it's no research behind this to back it. So are you paying for something you don't need? Maybe, maybe not. But I mean, it's not gonna hurt ⁓ Right. That's the biggest thing. Or they're gonna hurt ⁓ Yeah. And or I let ⁓ know you're probably spending little extra money. You can get this one. That would probably be just as effective. But owners want what they want. So if it's gonna work and if it's not hurting the dog, the cat, I'll let ⁓ go with it. Yeah. As long as it's got the stuff that they need. But I mean, you know you have your basic things, your DHAs, your EPAs from your fish oil and like we were talking about the micro lactin, natural anti inflammatory is great. Yeah. I mean, I'll be honest, right now I don't even carry anything with the micro lap in it, but I plan on getting it. So yeah, that's one of the things that I would recommend that owners go for and until I get it. And then when I get it, then I'll tell ⁓ we sell it here. But for now, I just I have my list. Yeah. I don't know how do you do that 'cause you don't carry any product, do you? I don't. So I have a couple companies that I have like accounts with and I can like send people stuff straight from the company if I have, you know something that I specifically like. But a lot of times I just tell them to go get it over the counter if it's over the counter. I think one of the things people don't realize the most is that like we can't possibly know every supplement that's on the market. No, that's why we look for those certain ingredients. Yeah. But I think they sometimes people, you haven't heard of this one. I'm like sure haven't and like dog foods and cat foods are the same way. It's like There are so many that come out all the time. Yeah. And we're like, I don't know. So we know more acts of ingredients and stuff like that. And and things I talk about too are like the NASC seal, right? Like the National Council seal to make sure that it's been tested and actually works and, you know, is safe. And then having a certificate of analysis and like a lot and a batch number so that we know that like they've tested for heavy metals and anything that could be toxic in there. You know, if if they say things like, ⁓ this is just a, you know, fortified group of things, then it's always a little questionable because basically they mixed it all in this facility and then they dispersed it into these little containers. And your container may get a crap ton of glucosamine. And this container may have all the chondroit and you know, and you're not getting everything in each bottle. So having that like certificate of analysis is really important too. So anytime they find new products, I'm like, look for these two to three things. And if they pass that test, then like, cool, I'm happy to look at the label and tell you whether the ingredients have any backing on them or not. Yeah. Go for the I mean, get all those boxes chicked and after that, go put them in a pretty bag. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think another important thing I usually tell people is like if it tells you it's gonna cure something or like This is, you know, if your dog has arthritis and it says this is the product that's gonna make them run again, I usually say don't buy that one 'cause that's a lot of false hours. Setting you up for failure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean you're trying to manage these things, maintain these things. And usually supplements, they're usually gonna be an ancillary thing. There's something you're using in conjunction with something else. Yeah. So I'll just tell ⁓ that. Yeah. Like but like you said, your dog's not gonna just You're not going to turn back the hands of time 10 years. Yeah. Especially not with a supplement, right? Yeah. Something if it's strong enough to do that, it's going to be a medication. It's going to go through FDA regulations and things like that. So yeah, I think that's really important. What do you think one of the biggest myths or misconceptions that senior pet owners walk into the exam room with? I mean, I don't know if it's a myth or what, but I just know. Clients love to know how long this breed lives. And then like it's like we're gonna lift their tail and see an expiration date on them. Like I tell them, I don't care about them average lifespan as much as how does your dog look in front of me now. It's almost like they think that, ⁓ man, average lifespan's twelve, fluffy's eleven, I got one more year. Yeah. I'm just like, that's the average. So I think that a lot of them they just they look at the numbers too much on the age and all and They asked, What's the average lifespan? Why don't I like I don't know. I can tell you how how good your dog's doing right now. You can go and look, but I don't even like when they like they look at that, to be honest. But I would think that they think that a big misconception is their dog is gonna just go downhill once they get to that the end of that average lifespan. Yeah. It almost felt like age is gonna disease them out. Like they're they're just gonna start spiraling and get all these things now that they're eleven years old and there's nothing we can do about it. Right. And there's usually a lot of things we can do about it if we want to be proactive about things and actually try and help. So I think that's really important. What do you wish that senior pet parents understood about pain and senior dogs and cats, like how they show it or don't show it or anything like that. Probably just The little things that they overlook. Like, they may not get up as much. Yeah. When they say that, ⁓ it's just because they're getting old, they want to sleep more, and no, it's probably just because it hurts to get up and it's not worth the effort for And they may say a lot of times they're like, I know they're okay because when I crack, crack open that food can or shake that bag, they get up then. Yeah, it's worth the pain for them then, especially if you have like a like a Mabel. Right. That loves to eat. They're gonna get up. They but just watch how they get up. I mean, just little things like data the owners just contribute to just getting old. But I mean, with age, arthritis comes a lot of times, and arthritis does cause pain. And we know that arthritis comes with age. I don't know why sometimes we don't associate arthritis with pain though. Yeah. So I would say just like maybe not thinking we're just which just kinda being over dramatic or exaggerating the pain in their animal because we don't want to wait 'til they're dragging themselves. Yeah, they might get up when you shake the food bowl and all but or food bag, bowl. Or the bowl too. Yeah. You have something in there. But I digress. But just looking at the little things. Yeah. In those smaller cubes before they become big things and maybe you can kinda delay the onset of the bigger things. Right. So I would say watch the little things and don't think that we're Exaggerating these things. Mm-hmm. I think subtle changes are huge. I mean, dogs and cats, but like really in cats is what I tell people is like they don't show you more. They just kind of retract. Like they're just gonna stop doing things. And that's our sign that they're actually in pain as opposed to them coming up to you and like screaming and limping and dragging a leg. Like they're not usually that traumatic. I know. maybe a husky or beagle, but like other than that, you're probably not gonna get those, right? So I think that's really important. And then yeah, I mean, pain, like dental pain is also like the second biggest source of pain in these guys too. And like yesterday I saw a client here that this cat had like had lost a lot of teeth that were not pulled out. So they had obviously just fallen out. And dad said, well, he still eats hard food. So I had no idea that like his teeth were bad. They said, you know, the vet had told us to watch for this one tooth that they had seen before they came here and said because he was 11 years old, they didn't want to do surgery on it. And I was like, was there any other reason? Did we talk about like, does he have a heart rumor? Does he have kidney disease? Is there any other reason that we're just like watching this tooth if we can already see damage to it and not going in and taking out that source of pain? And then looking back further, the back teeth are covered in plaque, they're bleeding, you know. And I was able to show the owner that. And he obviously felt terrible and he had no idea. But, you know, I think there's a lot of that conversation that made Celia and Don S where we say, like, you brush your teeth every day and you go to cleaned once a year. Like, you think never brushing your cat's teeth for eleven years, they're gonna have good teeth? They're pretty much the same thing. They're I mean, they're pretty much the anatomy of the tooth is in a cat on a dog is the same as ours. Yeah. Theirs might be sharper and all, but yeah, I tell clients when they talk about, ⁓ the groomer did it. Okay. You can only brush your teeth when you go get your hair cut or when you get your hair done. See how that looks in in a year. Yeah. Yeah. And so his biggest thing was he didn't want to do it because of the age. Yeah, well, I and that's what he said was relayed to him by his previous vet. And I do think there are plenty of vets who say that. It's just like, well, they're older, so I'm not as comfortable doing a dental, which is completely valid. But also in a like I explained to him, you know, the percentage chance of an anesthetic related death from general age, younger age to seniors does increase by like seven to thirteen fold. However the percent of anesthetic death before, you know, they're a senior is point ⁓ seven. So it goes up to one or like point one when they're a senior, it's still a very minimal number or something. I mean, I'm pretty sure you say it's all time. All right, I'm about to break the fourth wall right now. Where's the camera? Right here? Age is not a disease. Yeah, a lot of diseases come with it, but age itself, not a disease. D an excuse of He's too old or she's too old, that's not a good excuse. You gotta come harder than that for me. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, dental pain we know is related to dementia now. It's related to heart disease, kidney disease, liver disease, GI disease. Like the gut microbiome starts in the mouth. We yeah, and I think that that's when you get their attention when you mention those things and you know clients are probably gonna go and Google all of this stuff. So I mean, I say Google the way, Google the skin into getting it 'cause I hate waiting on dentals. Yeah. Because I mean, you wait until they're like really bad and not eating, it's it's really hard. Yeah. That's why I really push for routine dentals because I love the clean tea, polish ⁓ up, not have to cause any pain and pop ⁓ back up. Yeah. And we know like it's an iceberg, right? So like two thirds of the problem is under the gum line. So even if they look okay, they're probably not under those dental razing. Yeah. And I think too, like, you know, explaining it to him is you're right now your cat's eleven. Eighty percent of cats over the age of fifteen have CKD, so chronic kidney disease. So why are we gonna wait till he's fifteen and potentially has heart murmur or kidney disease or something else going on? Let's do it now. Those teeth aren't gonna get any bitter. Yeah. And then maybe we don't need to do it when he's fifteen. Yeah. And we can, you know, have less of an anesthetic risk. So I think just being able to have that open conversation is really important because I think there's definitely this stigma now with the way that, you know, media allows us to know as much as it allows us to come up with is like there's always this question of like, are we recommending things for money or are we recommending things because they're really needed? And to be able to like you, you know, break the fourth wall and like have the true conversation and like talk about the elephant in the room and all those things with people just to say like No, I I do not like dental cleanings. And I don't like removing teeth, especially cat teeth. They're so hard. So I promise you, if I am telling you they need a dental and I'm telling you I need to extract these teeth, I don't want to. No, and I mean yeah, and I mean clients don't like spending a lot of money. Yeah. Extractions they can get They can get kinda pricey because I mean it's a hard procedure. You're having to drill section teeth and that's I mean, you're cutting it to bone and that can be painful. I try to get those done before they get to that point. Yeah. Like you said, I mean, a lot of clients they don't think about brushing teeth. I pushed brushing teeth and doing all that good stuff and even then I'm like, I'll see you in a year for a dental cleaning. Yeah. I think about it. What what would you do if they were your team? Mm-hmm. And yeah, you might get a client or two that's like, I haven't had a dental cleaning in two years. I'm like, that's between you and your dentist. Let's talk about your dog now. That's what I'm like, okay. May not be the recommendation, but Yeah, I think that's really important. Have you ever left the vet with more questions than answers? And then you drive home and you go straight on to Google. Yeah, I hear that a lot. And honestly, it's exactly why I created my senior pet virtual consultations. Imagine we have 45 minutes where we go through everything, your pet's full history, their specific challenges, their daily life, no rushing. We're gonna cover nutrition, integrative options, whole modifications, and quality of life. And I send you a personalized plan after so that nothing slips through the cracks here. But don't just take my word for it. Chelsea called it a senior pup therapy session and said she felt so much better afterwards. Adiba got recommendations her own vet had never thought to suggest, and Denise said that the consult was incredibly informative and helpful, giving her many options to help her dog Loki feel better. This is the conversation that your senior pet deserves. And honestly, The one you deserve too. The link is in the description. I'd love to help you. So how do you either how do you do this or how do you wish this was done to better set up your clinic or appointments or your staff for senior pet appointments and like what do you recommend? Well, my biggest thing is the distance for things. Make it as easy for ⁓ as you can. That's why I have my senior room right it's like the second room you get to. They don't have to walk as far. I mean that's good for the pets. And also some of them you have to carry in and they're kind of heavy too. And I don't like carrying them that far. So it's a I have the singing room, we have like mats, we work on the floor as much as we can. And I mean, like I said, we'll carry them as much as we can. And we just tr try to be more accommodating for the client and for the pet. Yeah. And I mean, if we have to, if the pet really needs a softer surface. We have the comfort room right beside it. So they can go in there and the pet can sit on the carpet and we can just kinda do minimum movement. Yeah. And it's less stress on the owner too. We gotta think of the owner too. Cause like you said earlier, the pet speed out of that. Dogs, they're the ultimate impasse. Mm-hmm. So, I mean, you have a stressed client coming in, you already have a dog that's in pain, client's stressing out, they're gonna be stressing even more. So we just try to take the stress away. Yeah. And I think, you know pet parents, senior pet parents specifically, every time they come into the veterinary clinic, they are waiting for the ball to drop, right? Like they're waiting for you to tell them that there's something bad going on with the pet. So being able to have those open conversations and like, you know, recognize that they are a senior and talk about it and you know, open that pathway to have that conversation helps people. to breathe a little easier and to feel a little better about it too. And know that you know what's on their mind and you're thinking about the well being of their pet too and their senior hood. And, you know, we're kind of in this together and they're not just doing this all on their own. And that goes back to having those senior exams that are a little longer because you have more to talk about. I mean, the older the dog is, the more you have to talk about. That's why we need those senior exams of extra time. Yeah. Like having extended exams, you know, just saying, I know Max is ten years old, so we're gonna have you a forty-five minute visit today or a thirty minute visit today, and like, you know, even having the receptionist when they make the appointments or have some auto message when they make the appointment to say, Hey, like, take a couple of videos of him walking and like Let's bring in think of your over the next week or two before your appointment, think of your three to five like must answer questions and write ⁓ down somewhere and come in with it so we know. Have a game plan. Yeah. And we don't miss something. 'Cause sure enough is what's gonna happen is you're gonna come in, you're stressed out, everything is a lot, and then you forget to ask the questions and you forget what the questions are and then it's over. Yeah. Right. And we won't see you for another six months for the most part. So six months if you're lucky, it might be a year. Yeah, yeah. And a lot changes on that time frame. So if you could tell every senior cat parent one thing to start doing tomorrow, like a habit to change or something like that. I know we talked a little bit about this earlier, but what would it be? I would say don't overlook the small things, like we talked about earlier. When you have a senior pet, little things could be the sign of something that you need to address. To try to slow down the progression. I would tell them to be more vigilant, be more aware. And just things that you might think it's don't just use the excuse. He or she's just getting old. Yeah. And don't hesitate to call your veterinarian, text them, send them a voicemail or schedule an appointment. But yeah, I mean, we don't mind it. I mean, I get ⁓ I get in these texting. days with clients when I'm off and I mean I'm happy about it. It's just texting them and their mind is at rest. But I would say don't hesitate to contact your veterinarian if you think something's wrong. It might not be anything, but I mean And it's like that's our favorite one is when we get to say, ⁓ no, that's not a big deal and like we get to be like, ⁓ that's yeah. Like that's nothing. Let us know if you see anything else. Yeah. Yeah. Get that relationship. I mean a lot of times these senior pets A lot of them are seeing the same bit so you already have a relationship. Yeah. Yeah, and I think, you know, those probing questions that we need to ask too when they come in is like I always ask like a couple arthritis questions, a couple of mental questions, because people don't think about asking them. So like, does he have a harder time getting up off the bed in the morning now? Does he seem to be pretty slow and he has to like work out his joints and stuff? And if they say yes, then I say, okay, that's arthritis. We can probably feel a lot of it when we do the exam. But I want to tell you right now, an easy start point is an orthopedic bed and maybe some heat support, maybe some fish oils, right? We don't have to jump to medications right away. But lifestyle change. Yeah. Just having some of those things to be able to add in and and think about. And like you said, like simple things like, well, he's not finishing his breakfast anymore. That could be just age, it could be something else. So it's always important, even if you feel like it's not a big deal, to bring it up and ask your vet. Like I love the people that come in with a page and a half of notes and ask questions. Like I know I I know we're going to be in there for 30, 45 minutes, but I also know that you have thought about and how about these questions and I want to make sure I get them all answered. And then I'm going to feel better on the other side of this that you're recognizing things and like you're asking the questions. Mm-hmm. Yeah. All right. If you could have a magic wand and cure one disease that typically happens in senior pets that you see, maybe not every day but frequently, which one would it be? Arthritis. Yeah. I mean, I know it's a lot out there, but a lot of these diseases, I mean, you could fix maybe. Yeah. Not all of ⁓ but a lot of them. But in arthritis is common as well, but Definitely my two would be heart disease and arthritis. That's like Yeah. But I'm gonna say arthritis because it's probably more common. Yeah. That's like the biggest struggle with things. But those two are things that you're not gonna cure, but you're just gonna manage. But boy, if we can get dogs that less arthritic, more time they can enjoy going on walks with the owners. And yeah, definitely arthritis for me. How about you? Yeah. I love that because like eighty to ninety percent of dogs and cats had arthritis. I think that's a good one that catches everything. The one that breaks my heart and I'm, you know, when I work in emergency medicine, we see this a lot is hemingosarcoma. So splenic tumors that rupture, because most people aren't prepared for that. They they think, ⁓ he just has some GI upset or something, right? And they're not ready for you to t say, well, he has this giant mass on his spleen or his heart or his liver. that ruptured and he's bleeding out and we need to do surgery or use an ISM. And that is one of the most devastating conversations I have to have whenever that happens. That is a hard one. Yeah. I mean, I see those and I mean, I don't know how yours end up. And I'm not even like took my own horn, but a lot of times we can get in there to surgery. We can take it out. But once again, like you said, I was about to s when you said that, I was about to be like, ⁓ you can fix that. No, you can't. You take the sling now, but you're still not fixing, but you're buying them more time. So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean if it's the one third that's a benign tumor and not cancerous, then for sure you can be the hero and fix that and they get years on the other side of it, right? But for some maggiosart. Yeah, but if it's truly cancer, they're gonna spread within usually a month and you know, it's gonna be the thing that makes it worse. So that's typically the conversation that I have and our surgeons have, it's just like Two thirds of them are not gonna end well. And we're gonna get them recovered and then they're gonna get metastasis to some other part of their body, right? So it's it's hard. Not to mention stuff you're gonna do before 'cause they're problem naming. You're talking blood transfusions and things like that. So overnight care at an ER and making sure they don't get post stop issues and things like that. So you're making me almost want to change mine. But no, but it's still arthritis. I think arthritis is a really good one because that one affects so many. And, you know, it's not one that we think about euthanizing for until it happens. Right. Like arthritis and dementia are the two that I feel like we don't think about having to say goodbye for. Cancer for sure. But you know, with arthritis, we don't think, ⁓ well he has arthritis, I'm eventually it's gonna debilitate him so much that I actually have to let him go because he's in so much pain. And that is, I think, really hard for people to come to terms with and to decide on. You know, I see that a lot with my at home clients now. And there's a lot of pets that have really severe arthritis. And it's, you know, big Labradors, big old retrievers, big great Danes, and you can't just carry them around like you can on Chihuahua or something. Once again, they're still probably eating. Yeah. Yeah. They of course. Yeah. And ⁓ yeah. Why didn't I not you said it? That's my th other third one. Dementia. Yeah. You know what? I'll probably put dementia above heart disease. Yeah. If it was 'cause that's a hard one, 'cause these animals, I mean, a lot of them are in shape animals that probably 'cause they run around the house all night, but they're eating and everything and like the clients are so stressed out too. Yeah. That probably stresses the clients out as much as the pet because they can't sleep. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So Yeah. Dementia's a good too. And 'cause it's a hidden disease too, just like arthritis. Like it you can't see it. Mm-hmm. You just like see the side effects and what they're doing and the differences. Yeah. Like the little, like once again, going back to pick up on those little things, like, man, they just they're they're they're not sleeping as well or they just go outside and just stare in the space. Mm-hmm. What do they say? They're just getting old. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they are just getting old, but dementia's a hard one. Yeah. I'm getting anxiety just thinking about dementia cases. Because those that's probably honestly, that's probably the hardest one for me, yeah, to navigate with a client. I know what it is, but I mean, maybe you can give me some tips. Like I just I struggle. Like, what do we do now? We have this dementia case. What do I tell them like, besides we're not gonna cure this? Like what do we go as far as treatment? You just treat the symptoms you're seeing, but Yeah, I mean, I always tell people like dementia is not curable, just like a lot of senior diseases. But personally, I've had really good success with certain modalities. You know, I'd always like to tell people like, we may not reverse disease, but we can we can help at this stage, right? And I have I had a dog that they contacted me for acupuncture. didn't want to do herbs or try anything else. They just wanted to try acupuncture first. He had been sleeping, he had been getting up, and dad had got up with him every night for a year, got up and laid on the floor with him downstairs because he would not get comfortable in bed night pacing and walking and all that stuff. So I went in, we did acupuncture, and after the third session, second or third session, he slept through the night, half the night. Are you serious? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. We could probably spend another hour just talking about dementia stuff 'cause now I'm like now I'm interested. I'm like, let's talk more about dementia. Yeah. So like good. That was amazing 'cause I've never reversed things, right? And that was the time where I was like, Absolutely. I have a write up from them 'cause I want to write it up in a paper. It's just amazing the improvements we got. Like they never it was never all nights, but half the nights I could have. I mean yeah, that's yeah. Like the quality of life is so much better. And it's a couple. So like you know, they're not sleeping together either when all this is happening. They're, you know, their quality of life is Once again it's changing their qu that's why dementia's so hard. That probably that's one of those diseases that probably affects the owner's quality of life like so much. Like almost on the level of the pets. Not quite there, but I mean they're s they're all stressed. Yeah. Nobody's sleeping. Right. And I would say I've had Quite a few cases that weren't good candidates for acupuncture. There was like a 19-year-old cat that was one of my technician's cats that would yell around the house at night on the actually put that cat on an herb, and he got 70% better for, you know, his remainder of his time. So I have good success with acupuncture and herbs and, you know, talking about other options like. MCT oil is supposed to be really helpful for these guys. And like we do have one medication. We have slalegoline. Yeah. But I see maybe a fifty percent improvement on that. Like the Cinolite, the supplement, and then you have the foods as well. Yeah. It's still it's just it's hard. Yeah. It's it's I feel like it's almost like in younger animals who talk about like dermatology issues, right? Like allergies. It's frustrating because you're probably not gonna fix it. And you're gonna you have twenty, thirty different options, but like one may work for that pet. Which combination. Yeah. Yeah. Boy, I really am getting anxiety thinking about this. So it's frustrating to to have to figure out like the one thing and it's frustrating for the owners. Yeah to have to try and navigate like, well, I spent money on these seven supplements and none of them worked. So why am I gonna try number eight? Yeah, that's the hard thing. Just trying to like let them know. We're we're working through this. I know you're spending money, but it it's just so many like there every animal responds differently to everything. Every once in a while I may get that one where it's like they come back and the owner's like, Wow, that really worked. Mm-hmm. And that makes me feel good, but it's just so many different things, like you said, and yeah. So many different combinations. And then at the end of the day you know You're not curing it. It's literally the same thing as Alzheimer. Yeah. Yeah. It's gonna rear its head again at some point, even if we get it into a good place. Like we just have to be realistic and make sure we have those conversations. So yeah, we can definitely I'll send you my my handouts on dementia. Yes. Okay. So it ends on a happy note. I didn't write this one down, but can you think of like a favorite this can be vet related or not? Like A favorite moment from our two decades of friendship. Vet or not related. Favorite moment. That's hard because we've had so many good ones. But recently on my timeline, I got the reminder of when you came down, what was that? I think it was the was the feline practitioners convention. I was thinking that, yeah. It rained, we were in our ponchos, we just had a good time. ⁓ That's I'm gonna say that one just because that's fresh on my mind. But like it's been so many good ones. We could spend another hour talking about that. I know. That's gonna be the one. Yeah. Just walking around. Well, yeah, Charlotte. Yeah. Just enjoying Charlotte in the rain. Yeah. We went to well we went to one of those like arcade, like bar arcades. Yep. And we were So many quarters. So many quarters ago. It was a lot of fun. So I loved that. I didn't even go to the convention. I was just down there. She was there. I was just enjoying. I needed a break from work. So I was I was there on a mental break. Yeah. I think that was awesome. I learned not a single thing. Well it was good. I think for me, obviously, like we have a lot of moments outside of that med that are just obviously make us very good friends and I appreciate that. Veterinary medicine related, I do I feel like you were always a very big part of me, like being able to progress in that med and like get where I needed to go because I got waitlisted, right? Like I didn't get into that school right away. So I think like having someone who had been through that school who was also a close friend to tell you, like, it's okay, you're gonna figure it out, and then getting in, and then I almost failed out first semester. You join the club. And then having you to be able to text. And just say like, what am I doing? And for you to just be able to kind of talk me through it's okay. This doesn't have any indication on like how to be as a doctor you can make it through this. You know, keep going and like figured out, think you were a big part of like why I continue to go. So I appreciate that. Now I'm speechless. ⁓ I'm talking about arcades and all that, and you go all deep with that with something like that. Now I wanna say another story, but You also let me do my very first ⁓ dog spay the summer that I came home first year. I do remember that. Which was the most the coolest thing. It was so hot in there. I remember the heat. It was no air conditioner in that room. It was so hot. We didn't have to use heat pads on the animals. That was helpful. They didn't get cold at all, but we were sweaty. We had some good good times. Yeah. And I mean, definitely one of the biggest things is last month. This friendship has been all this time, all these decades, but for the first time we worked together. That was so cool. Yeah, that was. I really that's gonna definitely be something that like I'm gonna never forget. That was that was an awesome week for me. Yeah, I agree. It was a lot of fun. Cause yeah, we didn't even realize until the second day, but it was like we actually got to both doffter together and like bounce ideas off of each other. And, you know, if I didn't hate the heat in South Carolina. one of my ultimate things that we always talked about was like running a clinic together. I would love that. But yes, but it is not that hot. He likes the heat. I I love the heat. I can imagine working in cold. Yeah. ⁓ goodness. Well, all right. I guess we'll wrap up from here. So if you are in the ⁓ South Carolina area, make sure you check out Wag Vet. They just won Best of Columbia this year. So awesome. No, no, no, no. Best of South Carolina. I know. ⁓ yeah. Okay. All right. Everybody corrected me on that too. Well state. Yeah. So best of South Carolina and Best Bet Clinic, ⁓ for the year, and they've only been open for a year. So, like, that's impressive enough. I feel like you guys have amazing clients when I've been here. It's just so nice. People are so it's not you guys. You're part of the team too. Yeah. You are. Yeah. So it's been amazing to be able to like watch this. come to fruition and want you be able to like have your own clinic and get to kind of mold it the way you want to and get to have the environment that you've always wanted to have, you know, be able to do that. And then I also get to work for you, which is really fun. So I love that. Awesome. All right. All right. Well then we will head out for the day. If you guys have any questions, please feel free to comment on this podcast and let us know. That's it for today. If this episode helped you, please leave a review or rate this podcast so we can get the word out to more pet parents who need to hear that they are doing a good job. And if you're interested in working more with me, you can find me on social media or at senior petconnection.com because we all need to stay connected. Remember that you are doing a great job with the information that you have in this moment. And I am just here to give you more of it. See you next week.