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Church · Formed

0:09
SPEAKER_03: Thank you for listening to this podcast called Formed.
0:13
SPEAKER_03: The whole goal of this podcast is to explore Christian formation.
0:18
SPEAKER_03: And Christian formation, again, is rooted in God revealing more of Himself to us, and then our hearts respond to that with a growing love for Him.
0:25
SPEAKER_03: And God uses all of life to this end, but He especially uses some common rhythms.
0:30
SPEAKER_03: And we as a church have identified one of those rhythms as corporate worship.
0:35
SPEAKER_03: So we're looking at corporate worship half the weeks, and the other weeks, we're just looking at questions and topics that you all, if you attend the town church, have sent in.
0:44
SPEAKER_03: So at least we know these are some felt need sort of questions, which is nice knowing that we're spending some time on some questions that are felt.
0:52
SPEAKER_03: The kind of the big topic today, I had several questions sent in that had to do with the church.
0:59
SPEAKER_03: Like what makes up the church?
1:01
SPEAKER_03: How do we think about the local church and the big seed church?
1:05
SPEAKER_03: How do we think about the church's relationship to the parachurch?
1:08
SPEAKER_03: And so my special guest for this morning is Jory.
1:13
SPEAKER_03: Hey.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: I didn't know how to introduce myself.
1:18
SPEAKER_03: I think that was perfect.
1:19
SPEAKER_03: I think it's perfect.
1:20
SPEAKER_03: Jory has worked in the parachurch um arena for many, many.
1:24
SPEAKER_03: How many years was it?
1:25
SPEAKER_03: Uh 12 years.
1:27
SPEAKER_03: Twelve years working with crew.
1:28
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: Campus ministry.
1:30
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
1:30
SPEAKER_03: So a lot of time working for parachurch.
1:32
SPEAKER_03: I worked five years in the parachurch um world working for Alpha Center here in Fort Collins.
1:37
SPEAKER_03: And so I thought you'd be a great person to have on, Jory.
1:40
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:40
SPEAKER_03: Plus you sent in one of these two of these questions, which I think is extra special.
1:45
SPEAKER_03: So I want to explore this with you, Jory.
1:47
SPEAKER_03: Um before I ask the specific questions that were sent in, do you mind just giving us a little bit of your story and in how how you grew up in relation to the church and maybe maybe how you viewed the church up to today?
2:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'll try not to ramble for too long.
2:07
SPEAKER_00: I'll rein in.
2:09
SPEAKER_00: Um yeah.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: So I uh I I was um raised in in the church.
2:15
SPEAKER_00: Um my mom and I attended a small um Presbyterian PC USA church that was very yeah traditional, and I had a really great experience.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: Did Sunday school did all the things like that?
2:28
SPEAKER_00: Um and the church was family.
2:31
SPEAKER_00: We had hard things go on in our family, and the church came around us in really amazing ways.
2:35
SPEAKER_00: And I saw the beauty of the church.
2:38
SPEAKER_00: Um it was a very old congregation, lots of um, lots of yeah, white hairs and gray hairs in the in in the church, and I was like the young one.
2:47
SPEAKER_00: Felt like I had you know 70 grandpas and grandmas.
2:51
SPEAKER_00: Um but the in this particular church, the the gospel wasn't um communicated as clearly as probably should be.
3:04
SPEAKER_00: Um like I I I wasn't clear at least on what exactly it meant to be a Christian or what the gospel even was.
3:12
SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't until college I got connected to a very different type of church that was the opposite end of the spectrum.
3:20
SPEAKER_00: And um, like that was the first time I saw a guitar in church, but it was also hands in the air, and it was very charismatic, and it was the opposite end of the spectrum.
3:29
SPEAKER_00: But I I heard the gospel preached at that church, and that's um when I actually really uh responded.
3:36
SPEAKER_00: I I felt God calling me to Himself uh during communion.
3:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, the I'd been taking communion my whole life, but this church pastor he mentioned before we entered into communion, this is a time for you to um, yeah, if you if you are a Christian, to remember what Christ has done on the cross for you and to partake of the elements in worship of of what he has done for you, and even to kind of like re-redicate, you know, like kind of like rededicate your life to him.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: But if you're not a Christian, if you've never placed your faith in him, we ask that you um don't partake in the communion, let the plate pass you by.
4:10
SPEAKER_00: And I had been taking communion my whole life because it was just kind of the thing that we did, and so my heart is racing as the plate's coming down, thinking, like, am I gonna take communion or not?
4:22
SPEAKER_00: And um, and that was a significant moment for me where I um I prayed, Carrie Underwood popped in my head for some reason.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: I said, I was like, Jesus, like would I've been in the driver's seat of my life, I've kind of put you in the in the trunk, but would you take the wheel?
4:36
SPEAKER_00: Jesus, would you take the wheel of my life?
4:39
SPEAKER_00: And um, I want to like give you control and um and follow you.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: I I see that you died on the cross for my sins.
4:45
SPEAKER_00: Um I want to surrender my life to you.
4:47
SPEAKER_00: And I took communion for the first time, and it felt like the first time that I really knew what I was doing when I was partaking in communion, and and yeah, from that there really was a shift in my life.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: I ended up leaving that church um throughout college, and I bounced around a bunch of different churches.
5:05
SPEAKER_00: Um, I had also grown up like in a uh a Roman Catholic Boy Scout troop, and my stepdad is South American Catholic, and I just been exposed to all these different versions of church.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: So throughout college, I kind of bounced around a bunch of different churches to you know just see what was out there, but I also got deeply involved in a parachurch ministry.
5:25
SPEAKER_00: Um anyway, then I ended up moving overseas.
5:29
SPEAKER_00: I I ended up joining staff with this parachurch ministry, moved overseas with them, experienced church in a different culture, a more like charismatic church at one point, was also part of this like expat house church for a little bit where we would, it was just all these uh like um basically non-native people like that are like foreign missionaries in this country, and we would get together, do a Bible study, and do communion with um like uh Hawaiian roles and mango juice.
6:03
SPEAKER_00: Um but then moved back to Denver, um, was a part of the campus ministry here in Denver, got connected to a local church here.
6:11
SPEAKER_00: I would partner with churches in my like with my role with campus ministry, and then um yeah, moved up here and now I'm here.
6:20
SPEAKER_00: So that was kind of a long version.
6:21
SPEAKER_00: I feel like I've had a diversity of different church experiences.
6:25
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, both experience in the church and the variety there as well as in the parachurch world for quite a while too.
6:31
SPEAKER_03: Um I don't think I mentioned this, but you're Joey Vane and you are the director of our students here.
6:36
SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah.
6:37
SPEAKER_03: So just me.
6:38
SPEAKER_03: In case your listeners are unfamiliar.
6:39
SPEAKER_03: I don't think I said my name either.
6:41
SPEAKER_03: My name's Eric.
6:43
SPEAKER_03: I work here too, I guess.
6:45
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, okay, sorry.
6:46
SPEAKER_03: I missed that earlier.
6:47
SPEAKER_03: So let's let's actually ask this very first question and just see what the conversation goes.
6:52
SPEAKER_03: Here's the question: What is considered church?
6:56
SPEAKER_03: Is a Saturday night gathering of Christians eating a meal together in someone's home church?
7:00
SPEAKER_03: Is a group of college students on a Sunday morning meeting together on a campus, worshiping, hearing a sermon, and taking communion considered church?
7:07
SPEAKER_03: Is an individual living in a country where Christianity is illegal listening to a sermon podcast with a couple friends considered church?
7:15
SPEAKER_03: Is a local elder-led church that hosts services on Thursday nights considered church?
7:20
SPEAKER_03: So really it seems like it's a question of begging.
7:23
SPEAKER_03: How do we discern what actually makes up the church?
7:27
SPEAKER_03: Like what are those essential qualities and what are those things that can maybe look different, context to context?
7:33
SPEAKER_03: So, Jory, what do you think?
7:35
SPEAKER_03: What's considered church?
7:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, uh I'm I'm the one who sent that question.
7:40
SPEAKER_03: Oh, that's a great question, Joe.
7:42
SPEAKER_00: Because I yeah, I have experienced a lot of different things.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: And even in the campus ministry space, there I've experienced times where campus ministry um meetings can feel very similar to a church meeting or what is it about the sorry I interrupted you.
7:58
SPEAKER_03: Um what is it about those that feel similar to you?
8:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, it'd be really common, you know, a a campus ministry meeting would look like um, you know, a bunch of students get together um in a room.
8:11
SPEAKER_00: There might be there could be up to up to 300 students in in the space.
8:16
SPEAKER_00: Um there'll be a a a band that does worship, people you know, have their hands in there, they're worshiping, and then uh and then like one of the the staff will come and and give a message from the Bible, and then we respond in worship.
8:32
SPEAKER_00: Um so it has the the worship and the and the and the preaching from the Bible.
8:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, in a large group.
8:40
SPEAKER_00: In a large group of people.
8:41
SPEAKER_00: Like it's it's common to find people who are like, yeah, this is basically my church.
8:47
SPEAKER_00: You know, I I'm known here, I um am being like invested in and poured into, I'm I'm learning a lot, I'm worshiping God.
8:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:58
SPEAKER_00: So you've been in those settings.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: Would you consider that a church?
9:02
SPEAKER_00: I um I personally uh don't.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: I mean it is church in the sense uh in the you know, there's the big sea church and and the little sea church.
9:13
SPEAKER_00: Like it's explain that, what do you mean?
9:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, big sea church being being the the collective, the the universal gathering of of all Christians across time and space and history, um, across the world, like everyone who has been adopted into you know God's family um by grace through faith is considered a part of the Big C church.
9:37
SPEAKER_00: Um but that Big Sea church is expressed in local assemblies of of of Christians.
9:45
SPEAKER_00: And uh I would contend that the you know that marks of uh uh of a local church yeah, include worship and the preaching of God's word.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: Like I think you see that in the end of Acts 2, where the you know Jesus has just ascended and the disciples are are now being sent out as apostles and they kind of have their first little gathering, and it says they were breaking bread in one another's homes.
10:13
SPEAKER_00: Uh I I f I can't remember all of it, but they're breaking bread, they're they're praying, and they're um and they're like uh like reading God's word, basically.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: And the Lord added to their number day by day.
10:26
SPEAKER_00: So I think some Marx is, yeah, the preaching of God's word, the receiving of what God's word is saying to us, the the responding in prayer and in worship.
10:35
SPEAKER_00: But I think there does need there's an importance of the of communion.
10:41
SPEAKER_00: I think the the the body and the bread, the sort of reenacting of the Lord's Supper in a way, um, remembering what Christ has done on the cross.
10:50
SPEAKER_00: I think that's a integral but often overlooked aspect of church, especially in our modern Western world that devalues um uh like ritual or the the or like these little like practices that we do.
11:08
SPEAKER_00: We we don't really see the point of them.
11:10
SPEAKER_00: But I think that's a really important part that it needs to be a part of a church.
11:14
SPEAKER_00: And I also think the the the organizational leadership of of qual biblically qualified elders and um and then even like deacons as well that help.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: I think those are um important aspects of a church that a campus ministry doesn't like to or have.
11:35
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and that is also different than like a gathering in a home um for accountability or like a prayer group or a Bible study.
11:42
SPEAKER_00: Like even the house church, quote unquote church that I was a part of overseas, um I I wouldn't consider that um a church.
11:52
SPEAKER_00: Not that a house church couldn't be a church, but this particular one that I was a part of.
11:57
SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, it wasn't uh uh yeah, there there weren't like biblically qualified elders like called out and and leading this church.
12:07
SPEAKER_00: It was kind of just a collection of friends that would take turns doing Bible study, and we did a type of communion.
12:15
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I think it's helpful to point out also that what we're talking through are norms that we see biblically that are part of a local church and not just some other gatherings, which are edifying too.
12:25
SPEAKER_03: Other gatherings are great, but about the local church, there are times, however, in the global church where if you're church planting in a region that has no local church, or if you just planted, there may be a time where you don't have like deacons in place, for example, or you don't have a plurality of elders.
12:42
SPEAKER_03: Um, and so there are times in the life of the church around the globe where maybe not all these things are in place right away, and it takes some time.
12:50
SPEAKER_03: However, what we're trying to, I think, express is here are some norms of a healthy local church that every church should be growing toward to have to have mark them.
13:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I like that.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: I like that the yeah, the the moving toward the the the direction that it's going.
13:08
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like how it looks in China is gonna look very different than in Fort Collins, for example.
13:13
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
13:13
SPEAKER_03: Um I think you hit on some good things and how like what is church or or how do I know because it seems like implied in your question a little bit is how do I know like I've gone to church, which is like the corporate worship of the local church.
13:26
SPEAKER_03: Um a couple other things I think are are unique in it is some sense of uh church membership, whether it's a formal or informal process, there's something that I belong to this local body of believers that is led by elders, is supported by deacons, we have the ordinances.
13:44
SPEAKER_03: Um there's also a method for discipline then in that.
13:47
SPEAKER_03: And often in other um settings, there may be informal and hopefully there is informal discipline happening.
13:54
SPEAKER_03: Um, but there's not a whole lot of grounds to actually pursue the formal discipline of Matthew 18.
14:01
SPEAKER_03: Whereas in the local church, especially if there's more of a formal membership process, there is a good accountability there in place as well, which I think is the mark, it is a mark of the local church.
14:10
SPEAKER_03: I mean, this is what Jesus instructs us toward.
14:12
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
14:13
SPEAKER_03: Um, so there are definitely unique pieces that make the local church, the local church distinct from some of these other gatherings.
14:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
14:20
SPEAKER_00: And that's um, I mean, a helpful resource.
14:23
SPEAKER_00: I don't we we're kind of referencing it without saying it, but the is it is it Mark Deaver, Dever, how do you say his name?
14:31
SPEAKER_00: Uh he he wrote the nine marks of the healthy church.
14:34
SPEAKER_00: Um where some of those that you just mentioned, I don't I don't have them memorized.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: Are those some of the ones on the list?
14:40
SPEAKER_00: Some of them on the on that list, yeah.
14:41
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
14:42
SPEAKER_03: It can be a helpful resource to kind of look through.
14:44
SPEAKER_03: I think it's I think it's pretty accurate.
14:46
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
14:47
SPEAKER_03: Um, but yeah, he's done a great job on that.
14:49
SPEAKER_03: Maybe it would also be helpful as to list the things that don't doesn't matter on whether it's a local church or not, like night of the week or night of the morning that you meet, or size.
15:03
SPEAKER_03: Or some of the other things that maybe we wrestle with.
15:06
SPEAKER_03: Like, does this count, so to speak, or not?
15:08
SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
15:09
SPEAKER_03: Um, but certainly those are a couple that are not necessary to what makes up the local church as a local church.
15:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
15:16
SPEAKER_00: Or there's yeah, there's things that I might be hesitant to say, oh, because of this, it's not a church.
15:23
SPEAKER_00: I I would be hesitant to say that.
15:25
SPEAKER_00: But I think there are some generalizations that I think are are are healthy or good.
15:31
SPEAKER_00: Like I think a church that maybe is very um niched to a very particular demographic and is and markets themselves as hey, we are a church for this niche demographic.
15:46
SPEAKER_00: I think in my mind that almost sounds um what's the phrase for when like uh uh a a definition like negates itself?
15:55
SPEAKER_00: Uh there's like a word for it.
15:59
SPEAKER_00: I forget what it is.
16:00
SPEAKER_00: But in my mind, it's uh oh, there's a word for it.
16:03
SPEAKER_00: I forget what it is.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, but to have a church that in my mind by definition is supposed to be pretty all inclusive, but then to say it's exclusive for a very specific demographic seems to be defeating itself.
16:18
SPEAKER_00: There uh what's the word?
16:20
SPEAKER_00: Somebody's listening who it knows exactly what I'm trying to say.
16:22
SPEAKER_00: Hey, email jury j-o-r-y atownchurch.org with the answer.
16:28
SPEAKER_00: But um so I I I would be hesitant to say that oh, you're not a church because you are specific to a democ a specific demographic when you meet all the other criteria.
16:41
SPEAKER_00: But I would say I was like, but it seems to be like uh not aligned with what the the definition of church really is, you know.
16:55
SPEAKER_03: I don't know, does that make sense?
16:56
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think so.
16:57
SPEAKER_03: There's we definitely have a hesit hesitancy to start like pointing fingers and hey, you're you're just not a church at all based on yeah, all these things that we're talking about.
17:08
SPEAKER_03: Now, there are some things that certainly we should say, if you're not preaching the gospel, if you're not biblical, uh those sorts of things, yeah, we can clearly say this is not the local church, as well as you know, Bible studies or accountability groups, which are all really good.
17:25
SPEAKER_03: Um, that's not the local church, it's not the same thing, there's differences there, as well as have let's have a little bit of charity here too.
17:34
SPEAKER_03: Um, I don't know if that's helpful to the wonderful person who asked this question and sent it in, but hopefully it was me.
17:41
SPEAKER_03: Yes, it was, it totally was.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: I I think for me, okay.
17:44
SPEAKER_00: Last thing I'll say on this point.
17:46
SPEAKER_00: I think for me it's more like even though having a definition is nice, as simple as a question as what is church is, it's actually surprisingly hard to come up with a really clear universal definition.
18:01
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think what's actually more important, well maybe not more important, but I think the heart of my question is um I think it's just important to actually wrestle with the question, ask the question, and and not just assume like things.
18:17
SPEAKER_00: Um like if you're in an environment being like, what is the church?
18:20
SPEAKER_00: Like, what is church?
18:21
SPEAKER_00: And I think the the wrestling with it process is important.
18:25
SPEAKER_00: I I think too many people probably just don't actually think about it.
18:31
SPEAKER_03: No.
18:32
SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna ask another question.
18:35
SPEAKER_03: Uh here's the question that was sent in.
18:38
SPEAKER_03: Um can we discuss what being one body of believers in the context of both the local fellowship of Sunday morning and throughout the week and the church, the big sea church, the bride, interdenominationally really means?
18:53
SPEAKER_03: So it seems to be a question about what does it look like to have unity with both the local church on Sundays and throughout the week and a part of the big sea church interdenominationally, what does that really mean?
19:06
SPEAKER_03: Because there's no denominations in the kingdom, only believers, and what is our responsibility to the entire bride of which we individually and corporately are a part?
19:16
SPEAKER_03: So if I'm understanding this question correctly, I think it is a question about unity among diversity, um as well as do we have a role or responsibility with being a member of the town church, a local town church, in light of the Church of Fort Collins, the Church of America, the big C church of the world?
19:38
SPEAKER_03: So um let's maybe talk about the unity and diversity piece a little bit.
19:44
SPEAKER_03: Jory, do you have any thoughts on I'm a member of the town church?
19:47
SPEAKER_03: That's my church, that's my local church.
19:50
SPEAKER_03: Um what what thoughts do you have about okay, that's really clear-cut, but now how do I relate to the Big C church?
20:00
SPEAKER_00: That's a good question, because I think every Christian has a relation or I should say should have a relationship to both the little sea local church and the big sea like universal church, but that relationship looks different.
20:21
SPEAKER_00: Um like I think there's a relational I don't know if relational responsibility is the right word to to use, but w there there's a relational responsibility to the local church that I think is is greater.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: Like if there's you know somebody in the town church who is going through some terrible tragedy, um if we if there's like uh like big financial problems or big like I think there's uh a greater responsibility uh for me as a as a co-member of the same church to come alongside that person that maybe another person in a different church.
21:03
SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't have that same like responsibility to somebody in in a in a different church.
21:10
SPEAKER_00: I I don't know.
21:11
SPEAKER_00: There's something about being in the same local body that I think heightens it.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: Um at the same time, I think there it is appropriate to have a concern or even a care for the like other churches in our neighborhood or in our in our city.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: Uh like I I even even if for no other reason than just like the witness, you know, there's that old hymn that's like they will know we are Christians by our love.
21:41
SPEAKER_00: And actually our our love and care for one another is one of the most powerful forms of witness that we have to the non believing world.
21:51
SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of Christians or a lot of non Christians are are turned off by the church because of how they see, you know, Christians.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Just like getting into what they perceive as you know silly little arguments and debates, and they're like it feels like uh like a dysfunctional family.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: They're like, I wouldn't want to be a part of that family.
22:15
SPEAKER_00: Um and then lastly, I don't know, I think of the when I think of the global church, there is the um uh like in in the the Great Commission in in Matthew 28, like there is an actual call and command from Jesus to have a concern for the nation, to to see the the the the global needs in the in the world of of those who who don't know like Jesus.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: And I so there there is like a some sort of scriptural, I guess, uh command to think outside your local gathering, but actually to think globally and to have a concern and care for the the church like the Big C church.
23:01
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'm even thinking scripturally, uh we see evidence of this in the New Testament.
23:06
SPEAKER_03: Uh Paul writes to the church in Corinth, and he's gonna come through, he's collecting a financial gift from the churches scattered to bring with him when he comes to Jerusalem to help that really poor and persecuted church in Jerusalem.
23:21
SPEAKER_03: So we see, in a sense, local bodies spread throughout the Near East caring for each other and and giving out of their little means to care for another one that isn't part of their local body, right?
23:35
SPEAKER_03: So we see both things.
23:36
SPEAKER_03: We see a function of the big seed church as well as we see little churches, little seed churches functioning also.
23:42
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
23:42
SPEAKER_03: And so I think that may be a helpful way to think about it, Jory, that maybe as concentric circles almost.
23:47
SPEAKER_03: Like your your closest circle is gonna be the local church that you're a part of, which is an expression of the big seed church, like you said earlier.
23:54
SPEAKER_03: It's a it's a visible expression of even of the invisible church, the invisible church meaning all believers of all time, and the visible expressions of what we actually see on a Sunday morning, which is composed of unbelievers.
24:06
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
24:06
SPEAKER_03: Right?
24:06
SPEAKER_03: Any gap, any any given Sunday here is gonna be mixed to some degree.
24:11
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
24:12
SPEAKER_03: Um, but we see that.
24:13
SPEAKER_03: We're a piece of that.
24:15
SPEAKER_03: Um, and so that's probably the closest circle.
24:18
SPEAKER_03: But then the next one out, maybe the churches of Fort Collins, the next one out, maybe the churches of America, the next one out, maybe the global church.
24:24
SPEAKER_03: We're still in those circles, but there does seem to be um uh some relational differences.
24:31
SPEAKER_03: Yes, not to say there's less of a care or that somehow you don't belong as much, like on those outer circles, but some of your relationship is gonna be a little bit different based on all kinds of factors.
24:43
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
24:44
SPEAKER_03: Um and so, which makes me think of another kind of thorny question.
24:48
SPEAKER_03: So I think I'm gonna ask it.
24:50
SPEAKER_03: I wonder if part of this question is is an underlying um question around all the fractures we see within the big sea church.
25:02
SPEAKER_03: So if we were to say the big sea church is Christendom, there's mainstreams in there, right?
25:08
SPEAKER_03: You've got Catholicism and Orthodoxy and Protestantism.
25:11
SPEAKER_03: Within Protestantism, you've got the mainline churches, and you've got more evangelical churches.
25:16
SPEAKER_03: Within evangelicalism, you've got thousands of denominations, of which we're non-denominational, but we find our fit down in there somewhere within our certain theological circles.
25:27
SPEAKER_03: And so lots and lots of fractures that we're all part of the big sea church, uh, right?
25:33
SPEAKER_03: We're cre if if we if we trust Jesus alone to save us, um, if he saved us by our by his grace, then we're all part of the big sea church, even though our traditions are pretty different.
25:44
SPEAKER_03: Thoughts are different, practices are different, some theology is different in there, and yet we see all these fractures.
25:51
SPEAKER_03: So I'm just curious, like maybe it'd be fruitful and maybe not fruitful to explore that a little bit.
25:58
SPEAKER_03: The unity within the incredible diversity that we see too.
26:03
SPEAKER_03: Um maybe we'll just get at by asking this question.
26:06
SPEAKER_03: Are all those fractures evil?
26:08
SPEAKER_03: Wrong?
26:09
SPEAKER_03: Should they be done away with?
26:11
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
26:11
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
26:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, uh no.
26:17
SPEAKER_00: Not all of them are wrong or evil.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: I think some of them were probably done um, you know, in unhealthy ways, or it's it is it you know, isn't how it how it should be.
26:33
SPEAKER_00: But I think there are good and legit reasons for why maybe some of those divisions exist.
26:40
SPEAKER_00: I I I'm not a historian at all.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: But for my my basic, you know, uh elementary understanding of you know church history, I'm thinking in the you know, the Church of England kind of had a national church where it was like if the king was, you know, Anglican or Church of England, like Protestant, then the whole country would be Protestant.
27:01
SPEAKER_00: If the king or queen was Catholic, now all of a sudden the whole country is Catholic.
27:06
SPEAKER_00: And when um you know European like uh colonizers came to the US and started, you know, establishing you know settlements here, a big part of that was wanting freedom of religion, meaning like we want the freedom to be like, hey, I'm Presbyterian, I'm Baptist, like we have and we want the freedom to be able to express what we believe the Bible says, you know, and so I think there's a a goodness in in having some of that freedom, but as we've seen is now, you know, it we we often have too much freedom and we just divide over everything, over like, oh, the carpet's the wrong color, we're gonna start a new church.
27:46
SPEAKER_00: And so I think there because maybe in our country we have a tendency to divide quickly, I think that should give us some pause.
27:54
SPEAKER_00: And I I think we probably do divide too quickly, and and we probably could learn from the how can we still be in church even when we have disagreements?
28:06
SPEAKER_00: How can we actually talk about it like in long, healthy like ways and not just divide too quickly?
28:14
SPEAKER_00: I I think that's a tendency in our moment today.
28:17
SPEAKER_03: So at times there may be actually decent justification to divide and to worship in a different local church than somebody else based on practices, theology, it could be based on a number of things, as well as I'm sure there's instances where there's not good justification, but we've done it anyway because we just we wanted to for whatever it could just be a preference sort of thing.
28:39
SPEAKER_03: I wonder also that within all of this, especially within America, there certainly is a temptation to be really, really myopic where to our setting, I'm a member of the town church, and that's as far as my thinking goes, as far as my Christian relationship and identity to Christendom in general.
28:57
SPEAKER_03: Um, not even to like other good gospel preaching churches in Fort Collins, but really the town church is all I'm thinking about, which is a ditch to avoid.
29:06
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
29:06
SPEAKER_03: Um, that's one ditch to avoid.
29:08
SPEAKER_03: And then the opposite ditch to avoid, I think, is to um almost have arms that are too wide open, if that makes sense.
29:15
SPEAKER_03: Like there, there is still a lot of theological differences within what we would call Christendom.
29:22
SPEAKER_03: I don't mean by Christendom everyone trusts Jesus to save them and there's the same belief of the gospel.
29:27
SPEAKER_03: I don't mean that, but I mean there's an identification that I am Christian in some way, form, form or shape, right?
29:33
SPEAKER_03: What we're also not saying in the opposite ditch is we are just we are simply the same as all of that.
29:38
SPEAKER_03: And uh we just have minor differences that don't really matter.
29:41
SPEAKER_03: It's not saying that either.
29:43
SPEAKER_03: So neither do we fall in the ditch of it's just the town church that's all I'm about, nor the opposite ditch that is super uh what's the word?
29:51
SPEAKER_03: There's a word for for this that I is escaping me.
29:55
SPEAKER_03: Like what you can email Eric at the town church if you remember this word.
29:59
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's this word that uh come on, Eric.
30:02
SPEAKER_03: Um it'll come to me some other time, but that we're all just the same, right?
30:08
SPEAKER_03: Uh-huh.
30:08
SPEAKER_03: Uh and that that's no, it's something different.
30:11
SPEAKER_03: Come on, Eric.
30:13
SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
30:13
SPEAKER_03: Um that we're all just the same, and let's just embrace it all homogenous.
30:17
SPEAKER_03: Nope.
30:17
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
30:19
SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
30:20
SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm my words are failing me.
30:21
SPEAKER_03: I'm just trying to say there's two there's two ditches here um that I think are to be observed, at least as we're thinking about this.
30:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
30:29
SPEAKER_03: There's something really beautiful about being a part of the town church and at the same time praying for the other gospel preaching churches in town.
30:36
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
30:36
SPEAKER_03: Because we want to see the gospel go forward.
30:39
SPEAKER_03: And the town church is not God's, like, it isn't like we are God's gift to Fort Collins, and that's all, like we are Fort Collins' only hope.
30:47
SPEAKER_03: That's beyond arrogant and just doesn't understand the nature of the church, the basic church.
30:51
SPEAKER_03: There's something beautiful about being like four other good, like Bible-believing gospel preaching churches here in Fort Collins and beyond.
31:00
SPEAKER_03: And it's probably that dynamic in relationship that we might be a little anemic on.
31:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
31:06
SPEAKER_00: I think that's where um I like I think it's really cool when churches of of differing persuasions can still come alongside each other over a shared like uh a shared interest or something.
31:23
SPEAKER_00: Uh whenever those types of things um like happen, like like with uh like the Alpha Center or or different or like evangelism or uh or mission things, it's it's cool to see um how those sort of things can unite churches like together.
31:41
SPEAKER_00: I think that's good and beautiful when that happens.
31:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:44
SPEAKER_03: Um and a lot of this conversation is messy, like just how the church is messy.
31:48
SPEAKER_03: Some of this conversation and thinking about the unity and the diversity is messy.
31:51
SPEAKER_03: And even with this, people land in a different lot of different places.
31:54
SPEAKER_03: And it starts to push on.
31:55
SPEAKER_03: I think a topic will have a different week.
31:57
SPEAKER_03: Like, how do you determine the primary issues to hold really tightly to versus what are secondary issues theologically and within the church world?
32:04
SPEAKER_03: What are tertiary issues?
32:06
SPEAKER_03: It brings up that question a little bit, but we're I think we're gonna hit that at a different episode down the down the road.
32:11
SPEAKER_03: That's a bigger question, too.
32:12
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
32:13
SPEAKER_03: Well, I think we solved those two questions.
32:15
SPEAKER_03: What do you think?
32:16
SPEAKER_03: Uh-huh.
32:17
SPEAKER_03: Oh man.
32:18
SPEAKER_03: Um, here's a third question How ought church and parachurch relate to each other?
32:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
32:29
SPEAKER_00: That is as someone working with a parachurch campus ministry, is something I've I've wrestled with a lot.
32:38
SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of this was um birthed from my time working with this campus ministry in another country.
32:46
SPEAKER_00: Um you know, a country that has a ton of unreached people groups.
32:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think the the Christian population is like less than 1% or something.
32:57
SPEAKER_00: And that's a very generous definition of Christian that they come up with for that statistic.
33:03
SPEAKER_00: And I thought it was amazing how because there's so few Christians in this country, like man, like the the churches and the parachurch ministries just came alongside each other in really cool ways.
33:20
SPEAKER_00: There wasn't this, you know, competition of church versus parachurch or uh, you know, like we got a mission together kind of thing.
33:31
SPEAKER_00: Yes, it very it very much felt like the mission of God, the missio day was the driving like uh core that unified churches and parachurch ministries like together in this country.
33:47
SPEAKER_00: Um and it was just like cool, but then when I moved back to the US working for a parachurch ministry, it was really difficult for me to now all of a sudden yeah, see all this like competition between you know different campus ministries, or you know, people say like, oh, you know, like I don't think can't like parachurch ministries should exist, or like just like getting into all the the the weeds or the you know the the politics of it.
34:18
SPEAKER_00: It was it was really hard.
34:20
SPEAKER_00: Like I've just I've wrestled with it a lot, um, and then ended up like leading this campus ministry in Denver for a long time.
34:30
SPEAKER_00: And it I think an urban setting looked different where we were able to, you know, work.
34:36
SPEAKER_00: We we would start basically um like small like Bible studies on different campuses, we would do evangelism on different campuses, but we would like partner with different churches, and I think we had made a pretty distinction between, yeah, we're not a local church, but we're like a missional extension of the local church that wants to support and platform the local church by going on the college campuses and um seeing like reaching non-believing students, seeing them come to faith and and then discipling them in the the basics of what the Christian faith is, including getting involved in a local church and bring them the church with us and and see them come.
35:17
SPEAKER_00: But then I think in an urban context like Denver, where we had a small staff team of like four people overseeing like 12 different college campuses, and we're kind of like bouncing around and we're partnering with several different churches, but then coming to Fort Collins, where there's one big university and there's like 30 different campus ministries on one uh campus and a and a bunch of different churches, all these things have made me really wrestle with how do church and parachurch relate to each other?
35:53
SPEAKER_00: And that's and I'm thinking just campus ministry.
35:55
SPEAKER_00: That's not even considering all the other types of para-church ministries that could exist, um, like not just mission organizations, but um like Christian publishing agencies, like Christian um advocacy thing, like uh pregnancy and health centers, uh radio and television, uh even like seminaries and denominations could be considered parachurch ministries.
36:20
SPEAKER_00: Like there's such a broad, like, how do these things relate to each other?
36:23
SPEAKER_00: It's just something I've wrestled with a lot.
36:25
SPEAKER_00: So that was kind of a long ramble.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: Well, that was a great preamble.
36:29
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's a great preamble.
36:31
SPEAKER_03: How would you answer that question?
36:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, a book I read recently that because I think having served on uh uh the staff of a campus ministry for 12 years and then getting hired um nine months ago here at the town church, now working for a local church, um I realized working with the campus ministry, my uh my my my missiology, you know, the the study of Christian missions, my missiology was really strong, but my ecclesiology, my study of the local church was actually pretty weak.
37:07
SPEAKER_00: And so um when I joined staff, I I bought a couple books to help me grow in my ecclesiology or like try to understand this topic more.
37:18
SPEAKER_00: And so one book that um uh Vince actually recommended it to me, it's called The Reason for Church by Brad Edwards.
37:25
SPEAKER_00: That was a really helpful book to learn about like why church matters.
37:29
SPEAKER_00: But another book that I found is called Beyond Church and Parachurch by um Angie Ward.
37:38
SPEAKER_00: Um I found that yeah book to be a really helpful book to talk about the distinction between church and parachurch.
37:46
SPEAKER_00: And she actually does like a church history or not a church history, a parachurch history, like a history of parachurch.
37:53
SPEAKER_00: And she actually like dates it all the way back to um the early like monastic movement, like monasteries being probably the closest thing we have to what would be like considered a parachurch movement, and how even back then, like however many, like 1700 years ago, there was still tension between the the local churches and the monasteries.
38:20
SPEAKER_00: There was tension there, and the monasteries were pushing the local churches in a healthy way.
38:26
SPEAKER_00: I it was something along the lines of like you know, Constantine had made Christianity legal, and so now the church is experiencing this newfound sort of freedom, and and there's all these uh benefits that they're experiencing, and they're becoming really structured and normalized.
38:43
SPEAKER_00: And I think the but with that they they lost some of what the early church sort of the the I don't know the grassroots sort of feel of it.
38:55
SPEAKER_00: And I think the monasteries were helping to kind of push the church in some of that way, but it but it rubbed up against the church in a lot of ways.
39:04
SPEAKER_00: But from those monasteries, that's how eventually like hospitals were kind of like birthed out of some of the work that monasteries like monasteries did really good stuff.
39:14
SPEAKER_00: Um and then later in the Reformation there was a drive to for for doctrinal purity because you know the Reformation was pushing back against what they viewed as doctoral corruption or ways that we had the church had veered from um the gospel, and so they were wanting to bring theological purity to um the to that.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: So that's why a lot of you know, there's the reformers and then later the Puritans wanting to bring purity to it.
39:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, but when there was such a focus on theological purity, then all of a sudden there became a detriment to mission and evangelism and actually making it known.
39:52
SPEAKER_00: And that's all of a sudden when you start seeing these volunteer movements like going out and being sent out to to to unreach countries and to spread the gospel.
40:04
SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, so Reformation brought some good stuff, but then post-Reformation, you see a rise in in mission agencies, so parachurch organizations going to fulfill the Great Commission, to go make Christ known where he's not known.
40:20
SPEAKER_00: So you see this tension between church and parachurch that's been going on for 1700 years.
40:27
SPEAKER_00: But I think um, but in some ways, I think the tension is actually is kind of good because it's kind of sharpening the the church to actually be what she was called to be.
40:40
SPEAKER_00: But it it does bring up um so I don't know, I in my mind uh there there's uh a few different this book lays out, I'm not gonna list them all off because I could ramble, but the book that I was mentioning Beyond Church and Parachurch talks about six different ways that people try to relate the two.
40:58
SPEAKER_00: And I don't I don't know which is the right one, and I'm not gonna read all of them out, but one one way people have tried to make a distinction between the two is by making a distinction between modalities and sodalities, where a um I believe the the modality, if I'm remembering it correctly, is the one that is sort of the the settled church.
41:23
SPEAKER_00: It's like the the local church that's uh in a particular place um in time led by elders and deacons.
41:30
SPEAKER_00: But then the sodality, if I'm remembering it correctly, is actually the the mobile church.
41:37
SPEAKER_00: So the example is in the Bible you have, you know, Peter was sort of leading the church in Jerusalem at the time, but then Paul and Barnabas are sent out as missionaries to go to another place.
41:51
SPEAKER_00: So they're the mobile church that is going.
41:55
SPEAKER_00: And so I think one way parachurch and church could relate to each other is um the the parachurch, even the word para, you know, is the Greek word, alongside like paralegal, paratrooper, paramedic, like they're coming alongside the church, and they're being sent out as a missional extension to where the church is not yet known to uh basically platform and lift up and and make beautiful the local church.
42:24
SPEAKER_03: But what you just said is interesting because what you just said in this example is from the church pointing back to the church rather than being something distinct from the church that operates in maybe some common causes kind of, but is also very quite distinct from the church.
42:44
SPEAKER_03: What you're imagining here is very, very different than that.
42:47
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
42:48
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
42:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you know, I think there's there can be some pushback there, because you know, I I think in that sense you could make the argument that only a true parachurch should only be a church planning organization or a missions organization.
43:04
SPEAKER_00: Whereas I think there is some value for I I think there's great value in parachurch organizations that do like pregnancy, you know, work or or or or um advocacy work or or Christian publishing or seminaries.
43:18
SPEAKER_00: Like I think those are all value, even though they're not explicitly church planting.
43:23
SPEAKER_00: So that's where I'm like, I don't know if that's a perfect paradigm, but I found it helpful to help orient para-church work in relation to the local church.
43:34
SPEAKER_00: Like, is it truly coming alongside the local church?
43:39
SPEAKER_00: And not working against or in competition with the local church.
43:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
43:43
SPEAKER_00: And extending the the mission of God in your community.
43:47
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
43:48
SPEAKER_03: Not and not replacing or attempting to replace.
43:50
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
43:51
SPEAKER_03: Um what do you think about this?
43:53
SPEAKER_03: As I have thought about it over the years, I have not thought about it as much as you have.
43:57
SPEAKER_03: I have always thought that in the ideal world.
44:00
SPEAKER_03: There would be no parachurch because the church would be itself be doing those things if it had the resources, right?
44:06
SPEAKER_03: They'd be the ones that have the pregnancy resource centers and the publishing houses and the schools, the seminaries.
44:13
SPEAKER_03: That'd all be coming directly out of the local church.
44:22
SPEAKER_03: What do you think about that?
44:22
SPEAKER_03: Is it is there something to that, or does that feel like it's actually something different?
44:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that's interesting.
44:33
SPEAKER_00: I feel like I've often heard that said in relation to campus ministry, specifically saying in an ideal world, campus ministry shouldn't exist.
44:42
SPEAKER_00: It should be the local church.
44:44
SPEAKER_00: Um and but I I think I I I think it's helpful to think of it not just campus ministry, but parachurch.
44:52
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, okay, but would you say that's the same for seminaries?
44:56
SPEAKER_00: Would you say that's the same for um you know a a Christian publishing agency like um Christianity Today or or the Gospel Collision?
45:06
SPEAKER_00: Like, would you say in an ideal world Denver Seminary wouldn't exist?
45:10
SPEAKER_00: In an ideal world, the Gospel Coalition wouldn't exist.
45:14
SPEAKER_00: Like I think when you broaden it out that logic to all para-church ministries, I'm I don't know.
45:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm hesitant to say, like, I don't think those things will exist in heaven, probably.
45:29
SPEAKER_00: But in our world as it is today, I'm I don't know, I I'm not convinced that we would say they they shouldn't exist.
45:41
SPEAKER_00: Like I think like I I don't know, and people might disagree with me, but in my mind, I think there is something to like I think I think there's a goodness there when it's done in uh what's the word I'm trying to say?
45:58
SPEAKER_00: When it's like um I don't know, when it's done in a healthy way, when it's like you know, done in the way that it's intended to be done.
46:05
SPEAKER_00: I think there's like really great good in it that God uses to advance his mission and to um and to strengthen you know his body.
46:16
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I hear you.
46:18
SPEAKER_03: Um as I have thought about at least some of these.
46:22
SPEAKER_03: I thought about some of these parachurchs, like for example, pregnancy resource center, alpha center, I work there.
46:27
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and the whole the whole goal is to see um the value of life, whether it's the unborn or it's those adults that are already engaged in in that sort of activity, like wanting to protect life, that value and that goal is also the goal of the local church.
46:47
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
46:48
SPEAKER_03: And so it's not a separate goal, it's the same.
46:51
SPEAKER_03: And so that makes sense to me.
46:52
SPEAKER_03: Like if the local church had the resources, that's what we're doing.
46:55
SPEAKER_03: We're doing it in creative ways, right?
46:56
SPEAKER_03: But we're doing that.
46:57
SPEAKER_03: I think about Denver Seminary, for example, it's just their closest seminary.
47:01
SPEAKER_03: The goal there is to uh educate and to train and to build up people to know scripture really well and to launch them into ministry.
47:11
SPEAKER_03: Seems like that's the goal of the local church, also.
47:15
SPEAKER_03: So I could see a like an ideal world.
47:17
SPEAKER_03: This is all thought experiment at this point.
47:19
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
47:19
SPEAKER_03: Ideal world where that doesn't exist as Denver Seminary.
47:22
SPEAKER_03: Now it's it's some educational structure or resource that the local church has put together to educate really well and to train in the gospel and to release people into a further equipped sort of ministry.
47:35
SPEAKER_03: When it comes to publishing houses, I don't I don't know.
47:37
SPEAKER_03: Like that gets a little bit more murky for me.
47:39
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, maybe, maybe not.
47:40
SPEAKER_03: It's a strategy of sorts.
47:42
SPEAKER_03: Um but I don't know.
47:44
SPEAKER_03: I mean, we're never gonna probably gonna see that.
47:46
SPEAKER_03: I'm not in my lifetime anyway.
47:47
SPEAKER_03: Uh-huh.
47:48
SPEAKER_03: But it is an interesting thought experiment because I think it pushes on this question.
47:51
SPEAKER_03: Yeah what's the relationship between the church and the parachurch?
47:54
SPEAKER_03: And if the parachurch really does come alongside and is a support to the local church, that makes a lot of sense to me.
48:00
SPEAKER_03: If the local church was able to subsume that parachurch ministry, that makes sense to me because we're all going in the same direction anyway, and one is attempting to lift up the other.
48:10
SPEAKER_03: Um, with the local church being the vehicle that God has established as the strategy to um uh uh uh bring make dead people alive spiritually again.
48:23
SPEAKER_03: And so parachurch ministries in some way, shape, or form or uh fashion support that I just rambled a bunch.
48:30
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I just thought experiment.
48:32
SPEAKER_03: I don't know if that's helpful for anybody who's listening or not, but I think it does get this question a little bit.
48:39
SPEAKER_03: Okay, I actually don't know if any of this was helpful for our listeners on these questions, but I think they're good questions.
48:45
SPEAKER_03: We definitely didn't cover everything.
48:47
SPEAKER_03: And so if there's something, if you even if I misunderstood some of these questions and the way that we took it, um, if you want to talk more, I'm always happy to explore it more.
48:55
SPEAKER_03: Eric E-R-I-C at the townchurch.org.
48:59
SPEAKER_03: Um thanks for listening.
49:01
SPEAKER_03: Next week, let me see what we got coming up.
49:04
SPEAKER_03: Oh, how do I work my computer?
49:05
SPEAKER_03: I'm getting that old.
49:07
SPEAKER_03: Oh, next week, we are going to talk about music as an element of our liturgy and get some good theology and explicitly looking at that.
49:17
SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna have Rex on.
49:18
SPEAKER_03: Tell God using it.
49:19
SPEAKER_00: And it's gonna be the entire thing will be an option.
49:22
SPEAKER_00: Me singing.
49:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
49:23
SPEAKER_00: Or rap.
49:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like a rap battle between you and Rex.
49:26
SPEAKER_00: That would be amazing.
49:28
SPEAKER_00: Not amazing.
49:29
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
49:29
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, thanks for listening.
49:31
SPEAKER_03: Bye.