Latest / The Trauma Therapist / GUEST HOST Dr. Graham Taylor and Dr. Lawrie Ignacio interview Robert Schwarz

Transcript

GUEST HOST Dr. Graham Taylor and Dr. Lawrie Ignacio interview Robert Schwarz · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the special guest host series of The Trauma
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Therapist podcast, where I'm going to be handing over the
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: mic to some incredible guest hosts. In each episode, you'll
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  Speaker 1: hear fresh perspectives and unique insights to inform and inspire you,
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  Speaker 1: all the while keeping the heart of this podcast alive.
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  Speaker 1: So sit back and enjoy.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Trauma Therapist Project. I'm doctor Graham Taylor
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: and this is my colleague, doctor Lori Ignacio. Doctor Guy
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: McPherson has kindly invited us to guest host on his
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: awesome and very well respected podcast platform, and we're so
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  Speaker 2: grateful to him for this opportunity, as well as you
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  Speaker 2: as a listening audience joining us today.
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  Speaker 3: We're so excited to have us have us have doctor
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  Speaker 3: Bob Schwartz return to our podcast as a guest.
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  Speaker 4: Welcome again, Bob.
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  Speaker 3: Bob is over thirty five years of experience as a
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  Speaker 3: licensed psychologist, specializing in an approach that's holistic in combining
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  Speaker 3: the best aspects of traditional approaches with complimentary approaches to treatment,
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  Speaker 3: including energy, psychology, hypnosis, imagery, mindfulness, and even nutrition.
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  Speaker 4: Bob is the.
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  Speaker 3: Former executive director of the Association for comprehensive energy psychology
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  Speaker 3: and the author and co author of three professional books. Bob,
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  Speaker 3: in our first show together, you gave us a really
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  Speaker 3: nice overview of your work within energy psychology. Today, we'd
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  Speaker 3: like to take a deeper dive into your work, allowing
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  Speaker 3: our audience to better understand a more practical, hands on
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: understanding of the various therapeutic technique, strategies and constructs that
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  Speaker 3: are part of the work you do. Would you mind
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  Speaker 3: down for us if you would, and describe your mind
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  Speaker 3: body approach that focuses on removing the traumatic energy and
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  Speaker 3: emotions attached to traumatic events in order to regulate what
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  Speaker 3: comes with trauma, emotional hyper arousal and things like that
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  Speaker 3: to facilitate insight and as we talked about in our
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  Speaker 3: first pot cast, post traumatic growth. Take it away.
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  Speaker 4: Sure, thanks for having me so, I mean, so there
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  Speaker 4: are a number of things that you know, I have
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  Speaker 4: learned over the years and can do, but let me
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  Speaker 4: just focus I think on e f T. There are
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  Speaker 4: other tapping approaches like TFT. Each have their own advantages,
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  Speaker 4: but you know, people can get lost if you start
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  Speaker 4: to say too much. So even with e f T
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  Speaker 4: there's a lot going on. So For instance, if you
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  Speaker 4: were to go online and look up YouTube, you just
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  Speaker 4: find tapping approaches all over the place, and some of
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  Speaker 4: them are on you are better than others, and you
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  Speaker 4: have to think about how you're using it. So in
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  Speaker 4: terms of trauma, there are two main ways that I
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  Speaker 4: think about it. One is this idea of self regulation,
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: that what happens for a lot of folks is that
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  Speaker 4: they cannot regulate their bodies, their anxiety, their trauma, their
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: their bodies you know, feel horrible, you know, in one
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: way or another, and they can't control it. And so
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  Speaker 4: one of the first ways that if somebody is anxious
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  Speaker 4: or upset in some way and they want it to change.
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  Speaker 4: And I have to emphasize that because a lot of
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  Speaker 4: people sort of get this idea if you're going to,
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  Speaker 4: you know, get rid of it, like we're going to
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  Speaker 4: get rid of the truck, We're going to tap it out.
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  Speaker 4: That's not and people actually say, let's tap it out,
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: but that's not really the way to think about it.
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  Speaker 4: It's really more about let's tap and let things become
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  Speaker 4: freer and see what happens. So we're not trying to
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  Speaker 4: kill the problem, because whenever you do that, it tends
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  Speaker 4: to stay stuck. So one of the things we would
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  Speaker 4: do with ef T is there's something called a setup phrase.
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  Speaker 4: So somebody might say, let's just say something simple like
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  Speaker 4: I'm anxious, right, So you would we could say, with okay,
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  Speaker 4: let's focus on the anxiety, and we would probably I
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  Speaker 4: would ask someone to tell me a little more because
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  Speaker 4: I want to know not just the word, but how
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  Speaker 4: somebody feels. So like, you know, my mouth is dry,
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  Speaker 4: my stomach's turning, my heart's pounding, and I'm thinking, oh
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  Speaker 4: my god, you know the sky's going to fall. Let's
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  Speaker 4: just say that's what it is. So then I would
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  Speaker 4: have some they would tap their hands. There are a
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  Speaker 4: few different ways, but there's an energy point right here
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  Speaker 4: I have. These people have taped their hands like this,
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  Speaker 4: so this is the body activation part. And then we
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  Speaker 4: say this you know phrase, which always is in the
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  Speaker 4: form of even though I fill in the blank, I
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  Speaker 4: deeply and completely accept myself. That's the basic version. There
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: are some variations. So I might have someone say even
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  Speaker 4: though I feel anxious and my heart is pounding, and
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  Speaker 4: my mouth is dry, and my stomach is turning, and
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  Speaker 4: I'm thinking to myself, oh my god, the sky is
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  Speaker 4: going to fall. I deeply and completely accept myself. And
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  Speaker 4: we would say that two or three times, and that
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  Speaker 4: would be the first part. Uh, And then I would
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  Speaker 4: have the person just focus on their sense feeling, and
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  Speaker 4: then they go through a series of points. The first
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  Speaker 4: is here, I'd say, just focus on it, okay, So
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  Speaker 4: I might have might say what's a reminder phrase? Okay,
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  Speaker 4: my stomach is I'm anxious, And then there's the point
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  Speaker 4: here my stomach is churning. I'm thinking, oh my god,
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  Speaker 4: the sky's falling. My mouth is dry, right, And we
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  Speaker 4: would just be focusing on these things, and this is
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  Speaker 4: how we would tap and I would tap along with
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  Speaker 4: the person, and then we and that this is the
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  Speaker 4: basic thing. We would stop here, and then I'd say
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  Speaker 4: take any breadth, Oh, I forgot to say. I usually
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  Speaker 4: have someone say, well, how strong is on a scale
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  Speaker 4: of zero to ten, how much does it bother you?
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  Speaker 4: So maybe they'd say seven, and then I'd say, okay,
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  Speaker 4: well what's up now? And oftentimes I'll say, well, it's
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  Speaker 4: down to a five or four or you know, something
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  Speaker 4: like that, And then I would ask, okay, is it
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  Speaker 4: the same feeling or just less or has it shifted
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  Speaker 4: is you know, And a person might say, yeah, you know,
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  Speaker 4: I my heart isn't pounding anymore, but now I feel
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  Speaker 4: this tightness in my throat. That's what's making it a four. Yes,
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  Speaker 4: that's what's making it a four. The rest of it's gone. Okay,
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  Speaker 4: then we'll even though, and then we were I have
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  Speaker 4: this four of anxiety and there's this tightness in my throat,
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  Speaker 4: I deeply completely accept myself. And then we would go
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  Speaker 4: through the thing again while they're focusing on the tightness,
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  Speaker 4: and you know, depending what happens, it might go to zero,
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  Speaker 4: it might not, and we would repeat that as long
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  Speaker 4: as we need until it goes down. So that is
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  Speaker 4: just but I'm just focusing on the symptom. It could
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  Speaker 4: be a craving for chocolate, it could be anything. It
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  Speaker 4: could be, and it's just sort of helping the person.
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  Speaker 4: It's like taking an aspirin, you take a rye, you
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  Speaker 4: take an advil. You know, thirty minutes later, you know
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  Speaker 4: you're a muscle soreness is gone. That would be what
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  Speaker 4: I would call a self a self regulation approach, which
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  Speaker 4: is what you will see a lot on like YouTube
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  Speaker 4: or whatever. And there's nothing wrong with that's great. It's
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  Speaker 4: really helpful to have that, and people can learn to
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  Speaker 4: do that, I think in many ways for a sec
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  Speaker 4: and then we can talk about the more trauma stuff.
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  Speaker 2: Well, we'll speak to that first. I want to get
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  Speaker 2: into the trauma stuff. Like glory is kind of nudging
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  Speaker 2: us here, but the fact that sometimes people are so
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  Speaker 2: aroused sometimes that this is such an essential start, isn't it.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, that's phase one of trauma treatment. Like you
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  Speaker 4: you know, it's like when you go to the emergency room,
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  Speaker 4: the first thing you do is stop the bleeding. Yes, right,
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  Speaker 4: So if something's all freaked out, you're not gonna and
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  Speaker 4: there they're not regulated, you're not going to have them.
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  Speaker 4: You don't want them to start thinking about all, you know,
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  Speaker 4: the trauma and because that'll just disregulate them even more.
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  Speaker 4: As a rule, I mean, there are, like anything else,
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  Speaker 4: there are exceptions, but.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's always a calm that allows right then
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  Speaker 3: to go into this.
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  Speaker 4: Mixt right and right, which helps people feel, oh, okay,
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  Speaker 4: I'm relief, I've got and I can learn this. Yes,
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  Speaker 4: So that's kind of part one. Then if we were
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  Speaker 4: to go deeper into it, and assuming the person wasn't
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  Speaker 4: it the trauma wasn't. I don't want to over complicate things,
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  Speaker 4: but there are steps that we take to make sure
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  Speaker 4: people aren't overwhelmed. It's really important not to be overwhelmed
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  Speaker 4: by it. I would have someone tell me about a
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  Speaker 4: specific event. It's usually kind of has a beginning and
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  Speaker 4: an end, and the important thing is I'll tell them. Look,
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  Speaker 4: I want you to tell me what happens, but as
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  Speaker 4: soon as you start to feel upset, we're going to
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  Speaker 4: stop and we're going to tap. So we're not going
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  Speaker 4: to go through the whole story. We're going to go
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  Speaker 4: only till the first part where the there's like it's
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  Speaker 4: called a crescendo, where you're starting to feel bad right
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  Speaker 4: and often. And I'll also ask permission advice. If it
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  Speaker 4: looks like you're having you're getting upset, may I stop you?
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  Speaker 4: And usually people want to barrow ahead. So I don't
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  Speaker 4: know whatever the traumatic event is someone starts to think about.
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  Speaker 4: It could be like a car. Okay, like someone has
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  Speaker 4: a car, you know, a car crash, right, and so, okay,
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  Speaker 4: So I'm driving along in my car and I see
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  Speaker 4: there's a person all of a sudden coming into my
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  Speaker 4: lane and they start Okay, what's what what's what's how
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  Speaker 4: much does it bother you? Now? Oh, it's already a four. Okay.
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  Speaker 4: So even though I see the car company and i'd
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  Speaker 4: ask them about even though I see the car coming
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  Speaker 4: in my lane and I'm thinking myself, oh, this is
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  Speaker 4: gonna be bad, and my heart's pounding and I don't
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  Speaker 4: know what to do. I deep think bability except myself.
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  Speaker 4: And then once again, we go through that event a bunch,
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  Speaker 4: that piece of the event until it's sort of down
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  Speaker 4: to zero or very near zero. We don't even go
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  Speaker 4: for That's one of the big differences. And then we
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  Speaker 4: go the next step. Okay, now what happens, Well, you
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  Speaker 4: know the car, you know, there's an impact on my car,
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  Speaker 4: and I'm just I don't even I can't even speak.
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  Speaker 4: If the car is spinning, and I'm thinking that's it.
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  Speaker 4: I'm buying the I'm gonna die. Okay. So even though
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  Speaker 4: I feel the impact and I'm my head's all discombobulated
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  Speaker 4: and I'm thinking, oh my god, this is that I'm
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: going to die. I deep thing that really accept myself,
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  Speaker 4: and then we're going to go there. We go through
• 10:29
  Speaker 4: that tapping on these points, all right, until we might,
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  Speaker 4: and then as as you tap, certain things might begin
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  Speaker 4: to come up. And that's what's interesting. We're not in
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: a rush. We do not rush to zero. We don't
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: care about zero. We eventually would like to get there,
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: but no attachment to that. Because this happens, and you know,
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: whatever things start to happen, they people recall, oh, there
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: was this, there was that. And we go through the
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: whole thing until finally it's down to zero or almost zero,
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: and then we do some things to make sure it's
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: we've got it all, but we take it slowly, bit
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  Speaker 4: by bit, and if it's a really long thing, we
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  Speaker 4: break it into chunks. It's kind of like, you know,
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  Speaker 4: like you don't take an entire t bone steak and
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: throw it in your mouth and try to check it.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 3: There's such a wisdom too, right that you're sharing about here.
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  Speaker 3: We find tun in our work that we really are
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: being led by the person in front of us. That's
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: that we're basically sort of just told in hands and
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: going in, you know, and they're leading, and we follow,
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: and we just provide a strategy for navigating the minds
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  Speaker 3: and then healing them. I guess I'm curious you know,
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: we find in our work, presumably in yours too, that
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: there are simpler processes and then more complex one, particularly
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: complex trauma.
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: I guess.
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  Speaker 3: Curious about what you found in your work using the
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: kinds of interventions you do in the cases of you know,
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: complex trauma trauma yea years of trauma.
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah, what your experience might be around that. Hm, Well,
• 12:16
  Speaker 4: so with complex trauma. Uh, it's kind of interesting because
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: the way I sort of tend to do it is
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: that even with it, I mean, complex trauma is basically
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  Speaker 4: a lots of traumas put together with a lot of
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: like neglect and all kinds of things, right, And so
• 12:42
  Speaker 4: oftentimes it's the actual tapping part. You're going to pick
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: something that's meaningful or maybe it's about uh, maybe somebody's
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: got a certain belief in this complex like I'm no good. Yeah, okay,
• 12:57
  Speaker 4: I shouldn't. And so you'd say, okay, can you give
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: We would find out three to five, Actually, what are
• 13:03
  Speaker 4: some things that happen in your life that lead you
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  Speaker 4: to believe or support the belief that I'm no good?
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  Speaker 4: And which is a part of what's called the personal peace.
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  Speaker 4: It's a it's a variation of the personal peace procedure,
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: which is we're going to find all the things in
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  Speaker 4: a category and we're going to systematically tap on each
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: one of them. So an e f T. It's called
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: the tabletop is called or schema for your cognitive therapists
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  Speaker 4: out there, I'm no good and then the individual legs
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  Speaker 4: are the specific events and we're going to tap on
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: each of those specific events and which basically makes helps
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: the table to collapse. And we may take time. We don't,
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: you don't, you've gotta. We might depending on how you
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: know what's up with the person and their ego resources.
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: We might do quickly, we might do it slowly. We
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: might take a break because other things happen. But you
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: want to kind of stay on this idea of Okay,
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: let's work on this idea that I'm no good. And
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: then what happens is the person starts to think, you know,
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: it loosens it up because all those specific events no
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: longer inform the person.
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we find something similar that if we can
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: get at that table top, you know, and then the
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: legs essentially collapse.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: So yeah, we have a similar It's a powerful thing,
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: isn't it When you know the event itself is significant
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  Speaker 2: to the point of hyper arousal.
• 14:43
  Speaker 5: But the meaning that we hold the takeaway part of it.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: In our prior podcast, whether you talked about this woman
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: who had an intruder in her home and how upon
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: working with you, she realized that she had done much
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: more and this victimhood stance she has that was.
• 15:00
  Speaker 5: In fact not true.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: She was quite the heroine in her own story, and
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: to watch and see what she did. But the assignment
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: of how I'm feeling about it, what I believe.
• 15:14
  Speaker 5: About it, is such a powerful.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: Shaper of what we hold in that trauma that keeps
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: people stuck in the process, It keeps them re traumatized
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: over and over, doesn't that.
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I know you guys focus on the meaning making,
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: which I think is great, and you know my kind
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: of I mean play with it would be I would
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: find the meaning and then I would say, okay, well
• 15:37
  Speaker 4: what you know what informs you? And then that might
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: be the thing. Might we might just talk too, Oh
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: you might just tap. And sometimes, depending on style, some
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: people will include more active sort of reframing as part
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: of a part of mapping. And sometimes that's a good idea,
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: that's a good choice. Sometimes you don't and just wait
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: until somebody changes it themselves, and then I want to
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: kind of you know, reinforce that. So you know, there's
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: some very there's some variant, you know, variability there, and
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: how you apply the.
• 16:10
  Speaker 5: Work, Bob, do you find it as you're doing the work.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: Sometimes they're going down one path, but then they'll start
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: to kind of go to you know, this brings up
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: another memory for me that has a similar theme, and
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: another memory with a similar thing where they're tied together
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: thematically in some ways.
• 16:25
  Speaker 5: What do you notice about that?
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: Well, that's a really good interesting point. Now, if you
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: did E M. D R the way at least when
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: I was trained, maybe it's changed because back when the
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: dinosaur's wronged anyway, you would follow that. In EFT we don't.
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: It's actually considered a problem because what happens is, well
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: it's called daisy change. We call it's called daisy chaining.
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: And so what happens is you end up kind of
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: going away and you never solved, you never finished this thing.
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: What we would do is make a mental note. Someone says, oh,
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: that reminds me of X, Y and Z. Okay, let
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: me write that down. We're going to come back to it,
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: and you're going to finish what you're working on, and
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: you keep them separate, No, because you finish because you
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: want each piece done to help break up the the
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: chain of associations. You're taking out a link and then
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: the next one. Yeah, or in this case it might
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: be maybe the metaphor is more like a link, because
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: a sociated link, right, So if I get but it's
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: just a metaphor, so but you know that that's what
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: you would probably do, but you would definitely want to
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: make mental note of it and then come back. And
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: sometimes if you fix this one, you say, now let's
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: go back to them. Does it still feel the same,
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: And sometimes they say yes. Sometimes you know, it's funny,
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: I actually it doesn't feel quite the same anymore, because
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: especially if the other one was an earlier one, like
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: if the thing I work on at seven and the
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: one they have an association too is at say thirteen,
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: seven almost always trumps thirteen, because that's where the early
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: earlier the memory, the more it tends to already filter,
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: you know, color, what you how you think about something.
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: And that's for everybody. I mean, it's not like no
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: one's doing anything wrong. That's just how it works, you know,
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: like yeah, yeah.
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: Well we were just I was just reflecting on again,
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: so much of the overlap the earlier. We also find
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: that the earlier the more comprehensive. Right, it's those meanings
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: or those experiences. The younger we are tend to have
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: a lot of grit to them, and they they have
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: us hijacked, you know, more red than more recent stuff.
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Like so if you're a therap for the therapist,
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: so sometimes you get like common like relatively like okay,
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: COVID right, or some there's this really bad thing happened,
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: or the fires. Right, there's something bad happening right now,
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: and it's perfectly fine to work on that. However, when
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: they when they say, oh, you know, I feel that
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: or which means of course, it's not that if I
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: say that, it means that, but I believe I feel
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: that this event, and you know I always feel so
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: it makes me when they did that, that made me
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: feel so alone. Yes, okay, so it's this story right
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: of I'm alone and you instead of focusing on this thing,
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: now you can say tell me, you know, uh, you know,
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: tell me Graham, when was the first time you felt alone?
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: I bet that right, and then I go goes, well, well,
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: well there was that time when my you know, I
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: was you know whatever, I was left alone in the
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: super in the in the department store, like with Elizabeth, uh,
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: you know, or whatever it is. You want to work
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: on that one exactly. And that's the the thing that
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: some people don't get is when there's a really big
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: thing here and things like well that kind of makes
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: sense whatever meaning they make out of that. Like Tony Robbins,
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: I saw him do this. I don't know if you've
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: seen this video of him working on nine to eleven,
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: right at the day after nine eleven. You know, he
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: makes this comment. You know, if you have nine to
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: eleven and you're a fearful person, you're afraid. If you're
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: an angry person, you'll be angry. If you're a guilty person,
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: you'll think, what did I do wrong?
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: So it's that earlier thing that frames how you relate
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: to whatever's going on now exactly.
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: It could be an early framing from very young particularly
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: that gets carried forward into the meaning making of later events.
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: At a woman I worked with really quickly that her
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: earliest self, what we call self meaning that came from
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: other very early difficult experiences was I'm bad. She was
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: raped later in life, and she came to the understanding
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: that I was raped because I'm bad. Of course we
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: could get at that table top of the I'm bad.
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: Then all of the legs underneath that held you know
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: that we're made of that meaning also gets.
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: Dismantled, right right, Yeah, no, that's exactly right, exactly we overlap, yeah, totally.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: Well, I was gonna say, but we got a couple
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: of minutes. I want to just do a couple of
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: things before we close. One, why the points that you tap?
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: Why are those ones significant?
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: And Two?
• 21:27
  Speaker 5: How long is treatment typically taking for patients to go
• 21:30
  Speaker 5: through that? I know there's probably no hard and fast rule,
• 21:32
  Speaker 5: but just in.
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: General, why those points that's an interesting question. They cover
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: a bunch of the different meridians there are, you know,
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: and then their acts there they're kind of front they're accessible,
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: uh to therapists. So I mean, I mean, I was
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: just reminded that Callahan Callahan, who was Roger Callahan, who
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: was the originator of any tapping with TFT here Actually
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: it was using points on the feet. But you know,
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: if you're doing psychotherapy, take off your.
• 22:05
  Speaker 6: Shoes doesn't quite cut it, you know what I'm saying. Well,
• 22:10
  Speaker 6: that's that's you know, that's part of it. And there
• 22:12
  Speaker 6: are some other points that people can use. There are
• 22:15
  Speaker 6: different techniques, there are other things around energy psychology. There's chakras,
• 22:20
  Speaker 6: but this is the one that has the most research
• 22:22
  Speaker 6: and and there's there's over two hundred studies on tapping
• 22:26
  Speaker 6: approaches mostly and then how long it takes it so varies.
• 22:31
  Speaker 6: So I mentioned in the last episode, those women had.
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: A you know, she was at the Borderline Bar and grill.
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: It was really a session, maybe a session and a half,
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: and now she'd had a bunch of therapy and and
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: I think she did some other therapy just for for whatever.
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: But it can be very very brief with somebody with
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: complex trauma. That's just not reasonable because you have to
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: have a relationship, you know. So I kind of think
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: of it with people with you know, really complex trauma.
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: I'm doing psychotherapy with them trauma in form of psychotherapy,
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: with a lot of interspersal of these approaches, right, and
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: it could you know it it you know, uh, it
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: could be once, it could be years depending on the
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: person and just you know where they are in their
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: life and how how ready they are and what their
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: resources are. And I mean there are a lot of variables,
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: but the important point is it's it's a lot quicker
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: than talk therapy, that's for sure. And people I would
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: say to people you should feel something relatively soon. I
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: mean you should know, oh this is different. I I
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: I definitely have people say to me, you know this
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: is I've had other therapy and man, this is different. Yeah,
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: and so it's so similar. Yes, you know, we know that.
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: You also speak about the role of the therapist, particularly
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: in you know, in providing certain contextual holding, all kinds
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: of things that are as meaningful, right as especially with
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: those with complex trauma.
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: Right, you need that relationship. As you said, it's so
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: spot on as well. Yeah, I've never ceased to be
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: amazed of some of the stories I hear about what
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: people have for therapy. Yeah, I mean you have to
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: take it with a grain of salt, but still, yes,
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: they they tend to say certain things that where people
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: aren't really present and caring and feeling too.
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: Right, we know this for a fact, we know.
• 24:35
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: So well, Bob, thank you so much again for being
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: with us today. We want to thank you the listeners
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: for dropping in and joining us today. It's been so
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: great yet again.
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: To have you with us. Thanks for having me. These
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: guys are doing great work. I appreciate it.
• 24:54
  Speaker 5: It's been a lot of fun.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: I agree with Laurie as we let our listeners know
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: that regarding our episode today, I want to remind you
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: that it and its resources and all of guys other
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: episodes can be found on the Trauma Therapist Project's web page.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: Thanks again for being with us today and we'll look
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: forward to seeing you back next time.