Latest / The Twin History Podcast / The American Civil War: Part Two: ''I go with my state''. Lee's dilemma.

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The American Civil War: Part Two: ''I go with my state''. Lee's dilemma. · The Twin History Podcast

0:01
The Twin History Podcast brings together 2 Black Scotsman, 2
0:06
twins, 1 historian and one storyteller to explore the
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moments that shaped our world. The show features Joe McCann,
0:15
the eldest twin and resident storyteller, the one always
0:20
asking why any of this shit actually matters, alongside
0:25
Johnny McCann, 13 minutes younger, and the historian
0:29
equipped with the dates, the fact and the receipts, Every
0:33
week they invite listeners to pull up a chair as they unpack
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some of history's greatest tales, The ones you think you
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know, the ones you've never heard, and the ones that hit
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different when told by them. Enjoy.
1:26
And we have been turned for Part 2 of our look at the American
1:30
Civil War. This is a twin history podcast.
1:33
This is Joe McCann. Johnny McCann is unfortunately
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sitting across the table all you're.
1:40
Going to say is not here. Well, I would have been.
1:43
Unfortunately, he's not here. I had to have a conversation
1:46
with myself about the American Civil War.
1:49
But yeah, we're still in Johnny's house.
1:50
We're still recording. This is Part 2.
1:53
Part 1 was rather long, wasn't it?
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It was, but I mean, we don't expect it to go that long.
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But I mean it's such a complex, fascinating subject.
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So these episodes will be long and we are may maybe being
2:10
overlaying ambitious when we're thinking we could record 6
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episodes on this, but it might be more.
2:17
But let's see. We'll aim for six.
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But if it goes over, it goes over.
2:22
One of my favourite podcasts. They they do that like when they
2:25
get to an end of an episode, like, oh, we thought this was
2:28
going to be two episodes, but no, it's going to be longer.
2:31
Well, what was that? Which podcast?
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The Last Podcast on the left. Oh yeah, I love that one too.
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Yeah, you do love it. Yes I do great podcast.
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It is a great podcast. I I love it.
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The thing with the last broadcast on the left, they,
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they use a script. They're not historians.
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We, I'm a historian. Joe's a storyteller.
2:54
They're comedians, but they're brilliant.
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I mean, the way they tell the stories.
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I mean, there's times I'm listening to it when I'm working
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out and I'm almost dropping the weight on my head as I'm bench
3:05
pressing because I'm just laughing so much.
3:08
Yeah, anyway. Well, we wish you'd dropped on
3:10
your head this. Morning when you.
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Came into this happened a couple of times and as you came in
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today, your weights in the morning as I lay in bed getting
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prepared for this podcast. Well, I think you were asleep,
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weren't I? No, I I was up.
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I didn't hear you, but I was up. It was like Sylvester Stallone
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or Arnie lifting weights. I thought you were going to say
3:34
here was like The Simpsons, like, be quiet or you're going
3:36
to wake up John Wayne. I'm already up.
3:39
Well, we weren't in the depths of hell, so, well, not yet.
3:43
Just John Wayne would not be joining us.
3:47
Well, I, I kind of agree with the late Pope who says that hell
3:51
didn't exist. So hopefully it didn't.
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Because if, if it or it doesn't, we're all going.
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Why are we all? I think we're.
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All you speak for yourself, speak for myself.
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You'll be in purgatory and you can you'll be there for like 30
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years, but 30 years in purgatory years is like 300 centuries, so.
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I know it is. And you know, one of the things
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about 19th century or late 18th century Catholicism, you know
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how you could get out of purgatory?
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How? Well, basically after a family
4:21
member died, the local diocese would come to the family and
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say, you know, like he, he led the life of sin, but he's not
4:31
quite in hell, but he's in purgatory.
4:35
But you know how we can get out of it by pain.
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Your family's like how, how, how can we get out of it?
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Well, if you make a large donation to the Church, he could
4:43
maybe be freed from purgatory. Now rest assured, I won't be
4:47
making that donation for you, so you'll get to spend your
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eternity in in purgatory. I shall.
4:55
I shall. And yeah, well, are we going to
4:58
get into Part 2 of the American Civil War?
5:01
Part 2 of the American Civil War?
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We're not doing an additive account.
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We'll provide the structure. So what?
5:06
Why don't you? Well, let's shall we start?
5:09
Let's get into the Although it's not an additive retelling of the
5:15
American Civil War, or the causes of the battle itself or
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the battles, Let's Let's go to the.
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The one battle that lasted 4 years.
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The one battle that last, well, five years was not 61 to 4.
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Yeah, yeah, sorry, my mouse is terrible.
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Just that one battle. But yeah, let's get into a bit,
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a little bit about the start of the war.
5:41
So we touched on a little one in the last episode, Abraham
5:46
Lincoln's election. How did that accelerate the
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success movement? But I think first, I mean, I'm
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assuming if you listen to a history podcast, you know of
5:54
Abraham Lincoln is it? But do you want to give a brief
5:58
skinny on him? On Abraham Lincoln, Yeah.
6:01
So Lichen was from Springfield, IL He became president in 1860.
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He opened up. I mean, he'd done many things in
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his life. He'd been thing.
6:13
He'd been a wrestler at one point happening.
6:15
But I mean people, I actually, when we went and I mentioned
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this in the early episode when we went to George Washington's
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estate at Mount Vernon, one, one of the tour guides was saying
6:30
that he believes Washington was the greatest president in U.S.
6:36
history because he didn't have a blueprint.
6:39
How do you run a country? How do you start a country?
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So. But a lot of historians would
6:45
argue that Lincoln was the greatest U.S.
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President. But as, as a whole other debate,
6:51
I mean, I, I would argue that maybe FDR was the greatest U.S.
6:56
President. But again, they're, they're all
6:59
flawed in their own way. They all made many mistakes in
7:02
their life whilst in office as well.
7:05
So I mean, where, where's the barometer?
7:08
How, how do you judge these things?
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I mean as as like as something you can't say there's, there's
7:17
nothing you. Can't say definitively.
7:19
Here you can't say definitively. It's all subjective enough.
7:22
Yes, it is. But Lincoln's elected in 1860.
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How does that accelerate the succession movement?
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So as I said in the the first episode, the American West is
7:34
being realised, but the South at this time argue that all newly
7:39
open lands should not prohibit slavery.
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And I think we were into it at that time of the veto that the
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sovereign states had in Congress.
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So they were able to veto any bail that would prohibit slavery
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because there were two votes per state.
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So if there was 15 slave States and 14 and three states.
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I mean do the maths but what would the final count be Joe?
8:05
If every vote was counted, what would the final count be?
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If I put in a bill to prohibit slavery, what would the final
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count be if all the all the will fair to in favour?
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To Yeah, if you let me answer, I can do the basic math I.
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Could say he was struggling listeners.
8:24
I was not in struggle, but so Lincoln's is a threat to the the
8:31
Union because his if every new state that comes in is a Free
8:37
State, then they're going to have the power to outvote
8:40
sovereign states. They are going to have the power
8:43
to outvote sovereign states so that that's about the Union at
8:49
the at risk at this point, so. OK, anything more to I've done
8:55
that Abraham Lincoln. No, I mean, you have to remember
8:59
he was not at that time, he wasn't proposing that slavery
9:04
should be outlawed in the South. Yeah, I think he he would he
9:09
would have been seen as what we would call when the 1960s,
9:13
during the civil rights movements at that time, as a
9:17
gradualist, so someone who doesn't want sweeping reforms
9:21
right away. But obviously, as the war goes
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on, that changes and has mindset changes.
9:28
And I've actually got a quote from David Reynolds if you want
9:32
me to read it. Yeah, OK.
9:34
Please do so. And this goes into Lincoln, but
9:37
goes goes into the Civil War in general.
9:40
So Reynolds writes. And Empire of Liberty, the Civil
9:44
War of 1861 to 1865 proved the most destructive conflict in the
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history of the United States. In those four years, more
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Americans died in combat than in both world wars of the 20th
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century. After months of model, the North
10:01
mobilised its resources and crushed the South by roofless
10:04
firepower fueled by industrial might.
10:08
During the conflict, the North aims changed.
10:12
It had gone to war to preserve the Union, but in 1863 Lincoln
10:18
took the revolutionary step of emancipating the slaves.
10:23
And when Lincoln emancipates the slaves, what happens?
10:29
We'll get into that. I mean that that's a long way
10:32
down the line. But a lot of critics say that
10:36
the Emancipation Proclamation didn't free anyone because
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you're freeing people who are still under a state of slavery.
10:45
And many of these people are still under the sovereign yoke.
10:48
So until the Union Army gets into these territories and frees
10:53
them, you're not really freeing them.
10:54
A lot of them and the border states where they were free to a
11:00
certain extent anyway, Glonf argues in her stunning research.
11:04
She died on a slavery insurgency and the law country in the
11:08
Catalinas as the war was come to that to an end, that female
11:13
slaves were not free or would not be free under the law even
11:19
after the Emancipation Proclamation.
11:22
Because she said a lot of the men who became three, they
11:25
became 3 because they joined the Union Army.
11:28
So they're then, because they're now Union soldiers are federal
11:33
citizens, they are now free automatically.
11:36
But she said obviously female slaves were not going to be
11:40
joining the Union Army. So she argues that the
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Emancipation Proclamation was done on gendered lines.
11:51
Could you as flawed along gendered lines?
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Well. Wasn't it due to the time
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period? It may have been flawed, but
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isn't there an argument that Lincoln's emancipation of the
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slaves was a tactic of war? Would no one ever make that
12:09
argument? The tactic of warning and that
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the slaves could then become part of the the Union army.
12:15
They could become part of the Union army but also it may lead
12:20
to slave uprisings in the South. It also may lead to the the
12:26
sovereigners morale being weakened.
12:31
Yeah, yeah, you could argue that.
12:33
I mean, you have to remember we is.
12:36
This is your president, so he's telling you that these men are
12:39
going to be free when this war is over.
12:42
So I mean, you could maybe counter and say that would
12:48
embolden the sovereigners resolve like to, you know, to
12:52
fight on and to win this war. But it's is it?
12:57
Well, we don't have to get into that now, but yeah.
13:01
No, it's a fair question. I mean, that's the funny as I
13:06
mean, you mentioned Frederick Douglass on many occasions
13:09
during the first episode. He I didn't mention in one spot.
13:12
He, I mean, we'll, we'll get into this, but he, he didn't
13:16
become like a a supporter, a full supporter of Lincoln and
13:21
tell them answer patient proclamation.
13:23
Because yeah, you're saying at that point, as Reynolds says,
13:29
you're going to war not to free the slaves.
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But as the war goes on, Lincoln realises that the Union will not
13:37
prevail without a fully freed country or fully freed citizens.
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So yeah, you could argue. I mean, you could argue it is
13:49
like, yeah, it is a map of the war.
13:52
It's a chess move. In a sense, but yeah, you you
13:56
could argue no, because it is flawed in a sense as well.
13:59
The Emancipation Proclamation. Yeah, it's it's flawed.
14:03
OK, it's Ford. But yes, anything more unlike in
14:08
his, his election, not really. No, Nothing more unlike.
14:14
That's it. So shall we move on?
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Just have to say I'm not I don't travail to the great man of
14:22
history theory. I'm not a proponent of the great
14:25
man of history theory. So I'm as a story and I'm more
14:28
interested in history from below as we call it.
14:33
So you have to remember, I remember Rail and Joe over this
14:37
because Joe is with me as a creative writer and that then
14:42
become an academic university degree into the 90s.
14:47
But history have been a degree and since the late 19th century.
14:53
So, but at that time, most historians, they, they just felt
14:59
that's continued into the 20th century, that the only history
15:03
of interest of great import was of primarily historical men like
15:11
Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Abraham Lincoln, all
15:15
these men's who ascended to power, like possessions of
15:19
power. And basically, yeah, they're
15:21
obviously incredibly important to the world.
15:24
But it wasn't until we get to the history historians of the
15:28
50s and 60s where they began to look at history from below, like
15:36
working class people, people who then have their hands on the
15:41
levers of power, people who are basically without them.
15:46
We don't have the nuts and bolts of history or of historical
15:52
video. So that that's where that's the
15:54
whole idea of fisheries in below that, yeah, Julius Caesar is an
16:00
important figure, but like a low level Roman at the time who is
16:06
maybe a fisherman is just as important to history as Julius
16:11
Caesar or just as important for historians to study at Julius
16:16
Caesar. OK.
16:17
Well, yeah. I would agree with that, but
16:21
we'll do a Julius Caesar episode suit.
16:23
Well, I know very little about Roman history, so ancient
16:28
history so. Well, you can't say that.
16:31
Well, I don't. You're a historian, dude.
16:33
I'm not bloody dance. No, I mean, I don't know
16:36
everything about every historical period.
16:39
We'll get someone else on head fuzz then.
16:41
Well, if they do, they're not real historians because
16:44
obviously you'll have barriers. You're an expert and that age
16:49
you've studied, that age you've wrote about, I hope you're not
16:52
saying that that Dan isn't a real historian.
16:55
I don't say he's not a real historian.
16:56
I'm just saying I don't know what his area of expertise is
16:59
because he seems to cover a vast period of subjects and of
17:04
history. And I actually am not to digress
17:08
from this. And it maybe goes into the great
17:10
man of history theory. Like Napoleon would be seen as a
17:13
great man of history, but I remember Dan Snow and Ridley
17:19
Scott trading blows on social media over Ridley Scott's
17:23
Napoleon film of 2020. Three.
17:26
Yeah, I don't like that. I mean, I, I like the film and I
17:30
actually argued that I I agreed with Ridley Scott.
17:34
I don't think historians should be sorry, film makers should be
17:39
beholden to history because it's a completely different medium.
17:42
And even historians make mistakes when it comes to just
17:46
because like, I've got a great book there.
17:49
I think it's by Frank McClendon, Napoleon, there might be, he
17:54
might have made mistakes in his research.
17:55
I don't think he did, but he could have.
17:57
So for me, I'm not watching Napoleon thinking, OK, every
18:01
film in this film is going to be historically accurate.
18:05
But Dan Snow seemed to take personal offence to it and he
18:09
was trading blows with Ridley Scott.
18:11
And the thing with historians, and my wife will tell you and my
18:15
friends will tell you and people on social media will tell you, I
18:18
do this as well. We're great at telling people
18:20
they're wrong. And like, no, that didn't happen
18:22
like that. And this we know.
18:25
All all about that. And this actually happened at
18:28
that period. And no, like Dan's nose said,
18:31
like Napoleon didn't leave the field at Waterloo.
18:36
He didn't like Dove his cap when he left the field at Waterloo.
18:40
He actually, he left the field in tears at Waterloo because he
18:44
knew his career was over. But anyway, let's get back to
18:48
this. Oh yeah, but that, that's one
18:51
thing. I agreed.
18:53
As a writer you can't be beholden to history, to
18:57
historians. I'm writing 2 plays right now
19:01
set in 1800s. One of them is, I can't get into
19:05
the second one, but because that's not been announced yet.
19:09
But the, the, the one of the places about Andrew Watson, who
19:14
was the first international black international footballer.
19:18
And you played in the 1800s. But my job as a writer is not to
19:22
tell, as you've said, a cradle to grave ball by ball account of
19:27
this man's life. You're dramatising something.
19:31
Yeah, you're, you're not there to tell exactly as it was
19:38
because if you did, it would probably be a rather dull story.
19:43
You actually have to dramatise and you have to make it exciting
19:47
for an audience and you have to make it.
19:49
In this case it's a play so you have to make it theatrical and
19:54
going. Covering everything in great
19:58
historical detail was probably not going to lead to a play of
20:02
interest anyway. With that play, it's called the
20:05
Corinthian and it'll be, it will make its debut in June.
20:10
It'll be in Glasgow and it'll be in Edinburgh anyway.
20:13
Let's go. I have to watch it.
20:14
Well, it's a player, yeah. Is that going to?
20:17
Upset you? Is that going to upset me?
20:19
You need to get along to. It's safe to say that, Sir.
20:22
Yeah. OK, so let's get back to it.
20:24
Where were we? So we're at the stage where many
20:30
of the sovereign states are about to secede from the Union.
20:35
Yeah. OK.
20:37
South Carolina. Are they the first one to
20:40
succeed in December 1860? Yeah, South Carolina were the
20:45
first to succeed. Why was that significant?
20:49
It is one of the biggest sovereign states.
20:53
So they they succeed. And then how, how like how can a
20:58
state just decide I'm, I'm no longer part of the union?
21:02
Well, I mean, I can't, but this comes up later, particularly
21:06
when we get into the the whole idea of treason and what treason
21:11
should. We get into South Carolina's
21:13
succession. Yeah.
21:16
Well, this is obviously a huge constitutional crisis.
21:19
We've got one of the largest states in America in the South
21:24
saying we do not want to be part of the United States of America.
21:29
So it's obviously one of the largest slave states.
21:33
So that this is hugely significant.
21:36
And after South Carolina, most of the the sovereign states join
21:42
follow suit so. What's the reaction?
21:45
When do we know what Lincoln's reaction was?
21:49
I think it would be 1 of shock, but not also maybe is not
21:55
entirely unexpected at this point.
21:57
The country we showed in the last episode isn't is on the
22:01
ground of splitting down the middle.
22:03
So we had Harpers Ferry, we had the Dred Scott decision.
22:08
We had the Lincoln's demise of 1850.
22:13
We had Lincoln's election is declaration that any, any new
22:18
state will be a freed state, Yeah.
22:20
New states will be a freeze. But how does 1 succeed from a
22:25
union? Do you just say one day we're
22:27
not coming out anymore, we're not going to play?
22:30
Anymore, I mean some some people are said that this might happen.
22:33
I mean, some Republican senators were threatening that that's
22:38
under Biden that they were. They wanted to secede from the
22:41
unions. At this point, when South
22:43
Carolina succeeds, shouldn't the the US government be sending an
22:48
army into South Carolina to quell that, well, rebellion?
22:54
Yeah, maybe it should have. I mean, perhaps it should have.
22:57
But again, let's get in for that in the Lost Cause segment
23:00
because I have a great thing on. One treason.
23:04
We'll see a bit of that, but so nothing more on South Carolina
23:08
succeeding. No, South Carolina succeeds.
23:10
South Carolina Falls Who's next on a list of treason?
23:16
So Mississippi, Florida, Alabama.
23:20
Green Bowl, Alabama Trice. Georgia, Louisiana, Texas,
23:27
Virginia, Arkansas, Tennessee, and North Carolina.
23:30
You have to remember not all of these states seceded before the
23:35
war started. Some of them seceded like just
23:39
after the war started. So maybe the key one there would
23:42
have been Virginia. The the war was going so well
23:46
for them that they thought, yeah, let's succeed from the
23:48
Union when we're in their asses kicked.
23:50
This would have been within days or weeks.
23:52
So yeah, the war was going well at that point.
23:55
But yeah, I think it was more of an ideological decision that
23:59
rather than a military decision at that point.
24:02
OK, All right, so. It's fair to say then, South
24:08
Carolina is the first domino to fall, the first domino to fall.
24:12
And by February 1861, we have the Confederate States of
24:16
America with a new president, Jefferson Davis, that I should
24:22
be in a West Point graduate. Oh, he went to West Point.
24:26
Nice. He went to West Point.
24:27
OK. So Jeffreys and Davis, do we
24:30
have anything to say on him? Will we get into him later?
24:32
We'll get, we'll definitely get into him later.
24:34
But isn't he? Well, he's a traitor.
24:38
He's the other traitor and he was actually guide for the
24:41
reason, but we'll go into that in the Lost Cause.
24:44
OK, you're eager to save everything for the lost cause.
24:48
I'm sorry. Listen.
24:49
If we're going to be succinct, let's not get into interest now.
24:53
OK, All right, So the war is soon going to break out, but
25:03
like, let's talk about the firing on Fort Sumter.
25:06
Yeah, that was what, April 61, 1861?
25:10
April 1861. So why was that significant?
25:14
It was very. Significant.
25:15
So you have to remember, after these states have ceded from the
25:20
Union, many of them acquired or appropriated federal land and
25:27
federal weapons. So that for me, that is a
25:31
treasonous act, OK? So they, they, so this is
25:35
obviously greatly disturbed Lincoln.
25:39
Then they've acquired this land and these weapons, which
25:44
basically belongs to the federal government.
25:46
OK, So that that's an illegal act in itself.
25:49
But he's fighting on Fort Sumter.
25:51
So Fort Sumter is in South Carolina, so that this is fed
25:55
really on property. OK, so the Fort is basically
26:03
under siege of this point and the Confederacy are circling.
26:08
So in early April 1861, Lincoln looks to relieve the men in the
26:15
Fort. So he sends Federal naval ships,
26:21
essentially with supplies, weapons and food to relieve
26:25
these men. We were under siege at the Fort.
26:28
And he makes a promise, and he says that if these ships are and
26:34
men are not fired upon, then he will not see what the sovereign
26:41
states are doing at this point as an act of aggression.
26:45
So but they've succeeded from the Union.
26:50
Like it's already an act of regression.
26:51
Yeah, but he's obviously trying to quell the rebellion and
26:56
trying to stop it from becoming a fully fledged war.
27:00
But if history is taught as anything, it's appeasement
27:04
works. I thought you were going to say
27:07
if history, human history, is taught as anything is, that
27:11
anyone can be killed. OK, you're is not the Godfather.
27:17
OK, so historians argue that Lincoln essentially knew what he
27:23
was doing and he knew that the Confederacy or the sovereign
27:28
states would not adhere to this. So it was an ordered chess move
27:32
on Lincoln sport. He knew they were going to be
27:34
fired upon. He knew they were going to be
27:36
fired upon. So the ships are not fired upon,
27:39
but before the supplies are brought in the UN, the sovereign
27:46
or the Confederacy soldiers fired upon Fort Sumter and to
27:52
that state the Confederate, some provisors have argued that they
27:58
did not fire the first shot. That was the Union soldiers and
28:01
the Fort who fired the first shot.
28:03
But I mean, it's disputed by, I would say the preponderance of
28:09
evidence shows that it was the Confederate so fired the first
28:12
shot. So this would have been April
28:15
12. And even though there are no
28:17
fatalities after that, and so the the American Civil War has
28:23
essentially begun. Does the outbreak of war come
28:26
soon after this incident? Well, essentially that is the
28:29
outbreak of war. The first battle doesn't come
28:31
until July couple months later or three months later.
28:36
But yeah, that this is the incident that provoked the
28:42
American Civil War. So after the fighting on Fort
28:45
Sumter, does the South declare war on the north?
28:48
Does the North declare war on the South to declare war on each
28:51
other there there was never the Union done see the South as or
28:57
the Confederate States of America as a sovereign state.
29:01
So if you're declaring war on them, you're essentially saying
29:06
you're legitimising them, you're legitimising them.
29:08
So there was never a formal declaration of war from from the
29:11
Union. OK.
29:14
All right. So anything else on Fort Sumter?
29:18
No, I mean, as I said, it's an inciting incident of the war.
29:23
It's not like the case. If that had happened with the
29:26
war, not of course it was going to happen, then something else
29:29
would have sparked the war. OK, we're not here to do like, I
29:35
mean, the first World of War absolutely that it was basically
29:38
4 parts on the causes of the war.
29:41
Yeah, at least now we'll get into the the action, the
29:44
battles. So let's talk a little bit about
29:49
the respective armies, the Sovereign Army, the Northern,
29:54
the Union Army, Confederacy army.
29:58
So I think we should. The first question should be who
30:02
led those respective armies, who led the Confederacy and who led
30:09
the Union? You can choose which one you
30:11
want to go with first. So, I mean, the first man who
30:15
led the Union army was Winfeld Scott, who was the first leader
30:21
when the war begins. But you have it.
30:24
I mean, never heard. Yeah.
30:27
George B McClellan is the more like famous of the the tourists.
30:31
So he succeeds Scott and he he leaves to them become overall
30:36
commander of the Army of the Potomac.
30:40
So you have to remember the Union army is is huge is huge.
30:45
So the army in Potomac is the biggest regiment or biggest
30:49
battalion in the army. So this needs a separate leader.
30:52
So he becomes leader of the Potomac and summer 1862.
30:59
In the South, who is leading the Confederacy?
31:01
The Confederate Army was led by Robert E Lee.
31:06
And one of the more interesting facts of the Civil War is that
31:11
Lincoln offered him leadership of the Union Army.
31:14
Wasn't he a souvenir? He was a souvenir.
31:17
He's from Virginia. You have to remember, Virginia
31:20
was now part of the Union when the war broke out.
31:22
So why did he turn Lincoln down? And why?
31:25
Well, why did Lincoln ask him? Because he he was a brilliant
31:29
military tactician. He was probably, I mean, again,
31:34
I don't want to go into the great man theory, but he was
31:38
certainly the best military tactician of the American Civil
31:43
War. Although he made some crucial
31:45
mistakes, particularly at Gettysburg plot.
31:49
He historians have argued that the war against the Confederacy
31:53
would have been over an 18 months if not for Robert E Lee.
31:57
So he he was offered the Union Army leadership by Lincoln and
32:03
he considered that, but he turned it down when Virginia
32:07
ceded from the Union and he said I have to go with my state.
32:12
Well, I, I completely understand that.
32:15
So he's a sovereigner and he's going to fight for the.
32:18
South, he's going to fight for the South Yeah.
32:22
So yeah, he went with the state. So yeah, this, I mean, it would
32:28
have been great if he agreed to the to Lincoln's offer, but he
32:34
didn't so. The war would have been over by
32:36
Christmas if he had. Or maybe, I don't know, I should
32:39
would have been over by Christmas.
32:40
But yeah. So the the fact that he was
32:44
offered the leadership of the Union army by Lincoln is is an
32:48
interest in paradox, isn't? It it's one of those sliding
32:53
doors, a moment in history. But just to Fast forward to the
33:01
end of the war, isn't the Union success down to two men?
33:07
Yeah, the the two men who find the ore that was lying in
33:12
yellow. Creek.
33:12
Oh my God's Jesus Christ. James and Danny Heaton.
33:17
No, I thought you were going to say Grant and Sherman, but yeah.
33:23
So James, no credit for James and Danny Heaton?
33:27
Maybe not. That's from a Bruce Springsteen
33:29
song people called Youngstown. Let's talk a little about the
33:33
man who the only man to ever say no to Abraham Lincoln, Robert E
33:37
Lee, in his role in shaping the Confederate Army's early.
33:43
Strategy Lee were, as I said, he was a brilliant strategist and
33:50
it's April 1861 when Virginia succeeds from the Union.
33:57
So Lee, Virginia is the industrial powerhouse of the
34:03
South. OK, So is the most populated
34:09
area of the South as well or state of the South.
34:13
And then my wife and I, we were actually, we were worried about
34:17
going for Virginia just because of its history when we went to
34:21
the US East Coast a couple years ago.
34:24
But we absolutely loved it. It was probably my favourite
34:29
place we went in America and we were treated so well.
34:32
I mean, it was such a beautiful, beautiful place.
34:36
Yeah, it wasn't 1860s. Yeah, I mean, maybe it wasn't
34:40
1860s. I mean, one of Lee's early
34:43
successes was the Battle of Fredericksburg, which was
34:47
December 62, and there there were over 12,000 Union deaths.
34:54
What was this battle? More than half.
34:56
Of the Confederacy numbers at that time.
34:59
And what was the what was this battle?
35:02
So this was against the Army of the Potomac, which at that time,
35:05
Major General Ambrose Burnside was leading.
35:09
OK, so Burnside LED a full frontal assault at Mary's
35:14
Heights, it was called And Lee's I mean, I would argue Lee's most
35:20
trusted general James Long St he had set up defensive positions
35:26
for the consent Confederacy. So this is one of the key
35:30
battles of the the Civil War and it also attend to Westerners
35:37
might remember I mentioned this this kind of battle precipitated
35:43
the war tactics of the First World War.
35:46
So you've got. Insane.
35:49
I don't even remember that so. Sorry, I don't even remember
35:52
that. So you've got insane frontal
35:55
attacks at this time by the union of heavily fortified
36:00
positions. So you're attacking fortified
36:04
positions and these people have larger artillery, the defensive
36:10
positions, they have the armoury or the weaponry to repel a full
36:15
frontal attack. So like the First World War, a
36:19
lot of attacks in the Civil War and were lost because of this
36:25
kind of insanity. So this was one of these early
36:29
successes. And this caused a major shock in
36:35
the North because of the amount of deaths.
36:37
You've got 12 1/2 thousand Union soldiers dead and 12 1/2 young
36:43
men who would never go home again, would never go home
36:46
again. And Lee's Army of Northern
36:49
Virginia. Became feared throughout the
36:53
morph because of Lee's brilliance as a military
36:57
tactician. Wait, brilliance?
36:59
But you just said that due to the insanity of a full frontal
37:04
attack. I mean, all we had to do was say
37:06
shoot fire, fire. Isn't it like shooting fish in a
37:12
barrel at this point if they're all?
37:13
Running in and I'm not a military tactician but or
37:19
historian I should say, but Lee would renowned for you have to
37:23
remember you need to hold your nerve as well at that point.
37:27
I mean, you, you could, Lee could have.
37:30
He could have. Fled.
37:31
He could have fled, he could have lost his nerve, but he he
37:36
showed that he was a brilliant tactician.
37:39
Also, later in the war you've got the batter of.
37:42
Chancellor Val Yeah, let's go on to.
37:45
Chancellor will and talk a little more of a Robert E Lee's
37:49
military brilliance so that this would have been slightly later
37:53
in the war unless emboldened. Lee to them basically tried to
38:00
invade the North but we had the batter bat battle weaving of
38:04
Chancellor Val in April 30th and it lasted until May 6, 1863.
38:11
At this battle, Stonewall Jackson was killed accidentally
38:16
by friendly fire. So he was one of the the
38:19
generals of the South of the Confederacy who was feared in
38:23
the North and revered in the South.
38:27
So and one of his men accidentally killed him.
38:32
One of his men accidentally killed him.
38:33
Yeah. So the the battle takes place in
38:37
Chancellor well, near Rappahannock.
38:39
So the Union Leader says that his plans are perfect.
38:44
Rather arrogantly says his plans are perfect.
38:47
So as that battle, the Union have 130,000 men, Lee has
38:53
60,000. And how does Lee win that battle
38:57
with less than double the number of men?
39:01
Well Lee and Stonewall Jackson they formally A stunning battle
39:06
plan. So Jackson is going to use his
39:11
inventory to take the Union army from behind.
39:15
But for that to succeed, Lee personally has to hold off in
39:19
advance from the other Union battalions with 15,000 men.
39:26
So this was basically the key to the battle being successful.
39:30
If Lee and his 15,000 men hadn't been able to hold off the
39:35
advancing Union armies, then Union Army actually then
39:40
Jackson's pincer movement, sorry, Jackson coming in from
39:45
behind wouldn't have made a difference because Hooker he has
39:50
idea was we're going to box Lee and we're going to box the Army
39:54
of Northern Virginia and we're going to use a pincer movement.
39:58
We'll cut off all their communications and the Union
40:01
Union infantry will then obliterate Lee's army from the
40:05
left. Slang.
40:06
OK. But obviously it didn't work out
40:08
because they they got they got flanked from the rear.
40:12
They got flagged and we personally held the held off the
40:16
advance with us 15,000 then. So Hooker at that time was
40:21
accidentally killed by his own soldiers wasn't friendly fire.
40:25
They were shooting at the enemy. They accidentally hit him and
40:29
and also during the battle and Hooker was laid unconscious by
40:36
fallen debris on finally his his generals were hoping that he
40:42
wouldn't recover. So because his plan wasn't
40:46
because his plan was utterly disastrous and over their
40:50
protest, because they still even at this point, 2 days into the
40:54
battle, they still had a huge numerical advantage.
40:58
He rather cowardly retreated when they don't have to.
41:04
So that was one of Lee's stunning successes and the
41:08
American Civil War. So the man was a great military.
41:12
Tactician. Yeah, I can tell you admire him.
41:16
Anyway, let's move on into it. Right.
41:19
I you're fine. I admire him.
41:22
I admire his purity. Unclouded by judgement or
41:25
reason. OK, he's not a Zenimorph.
41:28
No, I mean, I'm going to say I admire him, but I would say that
41:31
I don't agree with his stature being removed from Virginia
41:36
because I think it's important not to shy away from the history
41:40
because, yeah, it's a poem. It's part of U.S. history.
41:43
So by all means, keep the stature.
41:46
But maybe had a plaque not celebrating the man, but letting
41:52
us know what the man did and also letting people make up
41:55
their mind. It just reminds me of
41:59
iconoclism. OK, go on.
42:02
So iconoclism is something they came out of the Reformation.
42:08
OK, so during the Reformation, Catholic churches and diocese
42:16
would be besieged by supporters of Mark and Woofer and Germany.
42:22
So what they would do is they would move, they would remove
42:26
objects and icons of the churches.
42:30
So let's say the Virgin Mary or. Jesus, because it is Easter
42:36
Monday, so. It is Easter Monday, so.
42:38
Have you heard the good news? Protestors and they felt that
42:42
like religion shouldn't be as showy in a sense, you don't need
42:48
all these icons spread across the church.
42:51
So many of these icons were removed, but it just caused the
42:55
problem for future generations because they would come in to
42:59
the church and they would see this point where a stature used
43:03
to be and there was obviously there.
43:05
It was obvious to them that something used to be there.
43:07
So they would ask what, what was their guys?
43:10
What, what, what have you removed from the church?
43:14
So, so then, then you have to go into the well, we removed like
43:18
an image of the Virgin Mary or, or Jesus and then that, that's
43:23
iconoclasm. So I kind of defeated the
43:26
purpose of removing it because people are naturally curious
43:30
about what you removed. Yeah, but we know who Robert E
43:34
Lee was. You don't need a statue to
43:37
remind us. Yeah, fair enough.
43:40
I mean, it is in your garden now, so you can be reminded
43:43
every day of his of the man's brilliance.
43:46
And it is Easter Monday, so have you heard the good news?
43:50
What's the good news? He is risen.
43:53
We talked a little about the the Union Army outnumbering the
43:57
Confederacy army. Yeah, but how did the
44:01
Confederacy army compensate for this disadvantage and industrial
44:06
resources? Well, they just, they had an
44:10
outbreak of war, they had almost 1,000,000 volunteers.
44:14
And you have to remember that this is true in the North as
44:18
well. So you've got 500,000 Union
44:23
volunteers at the outbreak of war as well, and that at this
44:26
point, prescription is not required.
44:30
So the South, they're not what we would see today as a regular
44:34
army. OK, So there's individual
44:37
regiments, state regiments, and they're volunteers.
44:41
They're not professional soldiers.
44:44
And we see this at the first battle of the Civil War.
44:47
Many of the Union soldiers had never even held a gun before.
44:51
Like they've never been trained to hold a gun.
44:53
So that's why the first major battle of the US Civil War, Bull
44:59
Run Creek, July 21st, 1861. Many of the Union soldiers fled
45:05
because the Confederacy attack was utterly ferocious.
45:11
And this changed Lincoln's approach the entire war, because
45:15
he knew that the North, even with all their resources and
45:21
manpower, would not succeed if they don't have better training
45:26
and better personnel. OK.
45:29
OK. All right.
45:30
Are are we going to talk about that first part or?
45:32
Should we have to speak about it?
45:34
We don't. I mean, if we go into every
45:35
single battle, we'll be here all day.
45:38
And I we're going to be here long enough anyway.
45:41
But it's go ahead, but isn't well, we what about the the
45:48
disadvantage in industrial resources?
45:50
How did they, how did they they navigate that?
45:54
Well, they just, as I said, there was a deep, deep
45:58
ideological commitment to the cause.
46:03
So the South may argue we are not at war because we want to
46:09
make sure the institution of slavery endures.
46:12
But these soldiers who signed up for the Confederacy, they were
46:18
deeply committed to that objective.
46:22
They wanted slavery to continue as an institution.
46:28
And yeah, you have to remember the North is ahead in terms of
46:34
things like industrial resources, in terms of even
46:38
military technology. So the South is still in the
46:44
past in terms of how they are planning to fight a war.
46:50
So the North essentially, yeah, this is one of the main reasons
46:55
why they won the war. So that grape of war, the
46:58
Federal army has 16,000 people. So you have to remember this
47:03
army, this small army, they won the Mexican American War and
47:09
they also won the War of 1812. What was that war?
47:14
That's war was that war was against Britain, so that that
47:19
was a war when Britain, they attacked the White House.
47:24
Oh OK, that's an that should be a future episode.
47:27
Yeah, it could be a future episode.
47:29
So as I said, or I didn't say about 8 to 1861, seventy, 5000
47:37
state militia, they're incorporated into the federal
47:41
army. But Lincoln at this point made a
47:45
vital mistake and he was to overturn this after Bill Creek.
47:51
What was the mistake? These guys were only to come in
47:55
for 90 days of service. OK.
47:58
So that was they only had three months.
48:01
They only had three months and a lot of them there were desertion
48:05
was high on both sides. But a lot of these militia,
48:09
they've cited the 90 days rule. I've done my 90 days.
48:13
Why? Why should I continue?
48:14
Didn't they want to fight to preserve the Union?
48:17
Well, maybe they did, but a lot of them deserted in the South.
48:22
A lot of them were slave owners as well.
48:25
They said, well, we can't leave the women with all these slaves.
48:27
So why? Why should we become part of the
48:30
Confederacy but part of the army?
48:33
And there was a strange thing where there was $1000 award to
48:38
bring in deserters, but it varied from state to state.
48:41
So a lot of Union soldiers, this was in the Union they would
48:46
deserve in a certain state, and then they would get their
48:51
friends to bring them in to another state.
48:54
I've got a deserter. We'll now get them to rejoin the
48:57
Army. And they would share the money
48:59
between themselves. OK, that's interesting.
49:05
So yeah, that's that was clever, although it.
49:08
Was clever. So by April of 1862, the federal
49:12
army is 700,000 strong by that point.
49:17
OK, so they went from a ragtag group of 16,000 very skilled
49:26
soldiers who held out, who defeated the Mexican army, to
49:30
700,000 men strong. Yeah, 700,000 and yeah, that
49:38
this, as I said, Lincoln, after the early setbacks in the war,
49:42
realised that his army had to be more professional, better
49:47
trained, better equipped, just more knowledge.
49:52
I mean, we've got in the Civil War, there's a geographical
49:59
structure to most armies like there was in the First World War
50:03
as well. Yeah, go into that a little.
50:07
Well many of these civil war armies were fighting alongside
50:12
in the same regiment, as friends, as family.
50:15
Obviously in the First World War we've got Mcrae's battalion
50:19
which was mainly made-up of footballers.
50:24
No? So the the British Army,
50:27
remember construction didn't happen until 1916, so an
50:31
outbreak of war to try and recruit young men, they would
50:36
use footballers of the day to say your favourite footballer,
50:40
your hero is going to be fighting in the First World War.
50:45
So this is an opportunity for you to meet your hero, to fight
50:48
alongside them, to play football with them during relief periods.
50:52
So many young men that join up for that reason, I mean.
50:56
For the camaraderie. Camaraderie.
50:58
If we look at today, I mean, the guy goes for Arsenal Shevchenko,
51:03
who said that he would love to join the Ukrainian army, but
51:06
he's never actually done it. He says his football he can't
51:10
because he's a footballer as. Well, not a Shevchenko.
51:13
Shevchenko, yeah, he said. Because his career is is not
51:18
more important, but he can't join the Ukrainian army because
51:21
of that. So you have to remember as well
51:23
the outbreak of the war. The South has no formal Navy.
51:29
The Union has 100 vessels at this point.
51:32
Most of them are made from iron, which is key, and so it's
51:37
difficult for after the Carolinas are blocked or
51:41
blockade for the South to move men and materials as freely.
51:48
As they could of. OK, well you need to speak a
51:51
little bit about that. The blockade of the Carolinas,
51:53
then, is it similar to the Strait of Hormuz?
51:57
Blockade, it's maybe not quite similar.
52:00
I mean these blockades were very successful, like particularly
52:04
there was one in the Gulf. So these squadrons were called
52:09
the East Gulf Blockaden and the West Gulf Blockaden squadrons.
52:14
So they, the South, they mainly fed their men with beef and salt
52:21
and at that time it's $1,000,000 trade.
52:26
So this would be yours to feed the Confederacy soldiers and the
52:29
interior of the country during the war.
52:31
So as the war went on and this blockade became more and more
52:39
constrained, it was very difficult for the sovereign
52:44
Confederacy to feed their soldiers.
52:45
So a lot of black and naval volunteers took part in these
52:49
blockades of the Gulf so. OK.
52:54
Is there anything more we have to say about that?
52:57
No, not really. Not at this time.
52:59
So again, I think we've covered a lot of ground in this episode
53:02
there. Are we going to get into new
53:05
tonight at any point? Well, we will at some point, I
53:11
would, I would imagine. I mean, I would say that is
53:15
important to make the distinction between a
53:18
professional soldier and a volunteer.
53:22
The professional soldier, I mean, if you look at someone
53:25
like Lee, he graduated from West Point as well.
53:29
He's well versed in militarism. He has trained to be a soldier.
53:34
He fought in the Mexican American War.
53:36
We'll get to that later, at the surrender of Appomattox.
53:40
OK, all right. But a lot of these soldiers on
53:45
both sides were untrained. They had never held a weapon in
53:51
combat. They had never, they were not
53:54
prepared to fight in war or in combat.
53:58
But obviously as the war progressed, that would change.
54:02
But still, there's a whole idea about the soldiers in the Civil
54:09
War. But we have to remember most of
54:11
them were not professional. They were not professional
54:14
soldiers. OK.
54:16
All right. Is there anything more on the
54:18
makeup of the respective? Armies just as well, like, as I
54:23
said, most of them, a lot of them fought alongside friends
54:26
and family. So the army very kindly gave
54:30
them the duty of informing their friends, loved ones that they've
54:35
been killed in battle. So they would write to say one
54:40
of their friends were killed in combat.
54:42
They would write to the family to say so and so.
54:46
Die today. OK, OK.
54:49
All right, OK. I think that's the end of
54:51
Episode 2, unless Johnny you have anything more?
54:54
No, I don't have anything more on that.
54:58
OK, well thank you for listening.
55:01
That was Part 2 of the Twin History podcast.
55:04
Look at the American Civil War. We will be back next week with
55:08
Part 3. Yeah, so for Part 3, we'll go in
55:12
to more of the militarism of the Civil War, the American Civil
55:16
War. Some historians had criticised
55:19
how the war has been betrayed by fellow historians like Ken
55:25
Burns. The Civil War, A lot of
55:28
historians have said that focus too much on the military aspect
55:32
of the war instead of the social, political and economical
55:36
aspect of the war. But obviously you can't do the
55:40
American Civil War without looking at the militarism at the
55:45
war part. Yeah, at the war part.
55:46
So next week we'll go into that job.
55:50
We will be. Goodbye.
55:52
Goodbye. The Twin History Podcast is a
55:56
Lost Cosmonauts production produced by ME Virag Estertout.
56:01
Additional producers are Dale McGoldrick, Johnny McCann and
56:06
John McCann. Written by Johnny McCann and Joe
56:09
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56:15
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56:19
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56:23
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56:26
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56:33
Thanks for listening.