Latest / I Hate Soccer with Jason Collinsworth / I Hate Soccer #103 - Larry Sunderland, on youth player, coach, and club development!

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I Hate Soccer #103 - Larry Sunderland, on youth player, coach, and club development! · I Hate Soccer with Jason Collinsworth

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Larry Sunderland has been in-the-game coaching for uh over 30 years.
0:05
SPEAKER_00: And he actually started the very first MLS Youth Academy with the Chicago Fire.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: He then had a stint at he went on to have a stint at the Portland Timbers.
0:17
SPEAKER_00: And most recently, he has spent the last seven years with FC Cincinnati.
0:25
SPEAKER_00: Since the recording of this episode, he has actually uh left FC Cincinnati.
0:31
SPEAKER_00: Um he was he was brought in to build the Academy from the ground up.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: And obviously, if you follow Larry and if you if you follow FC Cincinnati, he's done a great job.
0:44
SPEAKER_00: Not sure what his next steps are, but this is a great episode.
0:51
SPEAKER_00: Uh a little under an hour and a half just talking soccer, just talking about his history and getting to know him.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: And that's been my favorite thing about the podcast is getting to know these guys.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: Just get just talking.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: I don't care about the tactics and the tic-tac-toes and all that stuff.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: I just want to get to know that coach.
1:11
SPEAKER_00: So then you get to know that coach.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, please, as always, like, subscribe, follow, please share it.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: And if you want, you can clip up anything that you like out of this.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: Just tag I hate soccer podcast uh wherever you post.
1:28
SPEAKER_00: Enjoy getting to know Larry like I did.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: I hate soccer.
1:33
SPEAKER_00: How many teams did you bring?
1:35
SPEAKER_01: We qualified for uh four of our five teams 13, 14, 15, and 18.
1:42
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: And how is everybody stacking up right now?
1:46
SPEAKER_01: Eight teams are still playing.
1:47
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: Um, so they're in the final eight.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: Fifteens got knocked out first game, but you know, played well.
1:53
SPEAKER_01: Um waiting on the 13s and 14s to get here.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:56
SPEAKER_00: And that's what, tomorrow?
1:57
SPEAKER_00: Thursday?
1:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: Thursday.
1:59
SPEAKER_01: Our groups will come in tomorrow, Wednesday.
2:01
SPEAKER_01: I lose track of time.
2:02
SPEAKER_01: Our groups will come in tomorrow, 13s and 14s, and they play, I guess, Thursday.
2:06
SPEAKER_01: Are you here all week?
2:07
SPEAKER_01: I am.
2:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a long haul flawed.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: Some of these are, you know, like Fest was like what 11 days, 12 days.
2:15
SPEAKER_01: The spring is crazy.
2:16
SPEAKER_01: It just like flies by, man.
2:18
SPEAKER_01: I mean everything's stacked up.
2:20
SPEAKER_00: You go to you go to GA and then you go to Flex and then it's and then here, and and they wanted to consolidate it so it doesn't interfere with the World Cup, which makes sense.
2:29
SPEAKER_01: And then in between that, it for whatever reason, our fall was all at home.
2:34
SPEAKER_01: So the spring, in between Flex and GA, we're flying to Minnesota, and you know, and it it it ended up being a lot.
2:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:42
SPEAKER_01: Long spring.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: How long have you been with FC Cincinnati?
2:45
SPEAKER_01: This is uh I've been there about seven years now.
2:47
SPEAKER_00: Seven years.
2:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:48
SPEAKER_00: And you're and you're the technical director or well, the academy director.
2:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, director of player development is my title, but it's it's the academy director.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: And you're not on the field right now.
2:58
SPEAKER_01: No, I'm not coaching right now.
2:59
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's funny.
3:00
SPEAKER_01: I missed the field.
3:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think as the as the MLS academies has have evolved, the academy directors have gone away from being on the field coaching.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: Um I think that was one of the things, interestingly enough, um, you know, the French course, when I did the the initial French course, the first one way back when, um, they were they were shocked that academy directors were coaching at the same time.
3:23
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
3:23
SPEAKER_01: Um and I think that was kind of the impetus to move academy directors more into like leadership management role rather than being on the field at the same time.
3:31
SPEAKER_00: You think that it was mostly because of finances and you couldn't afford it?
3:35
SPEAKER_00: And so you had to coach two, three teams and be the director?
3:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
3:40
SPEAKER_01: I mean, when I was in Chicago, we started all that up.
3:42
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I did everything.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: I coached like I coached every team and uh was the academy director, and you know, yeah.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you were probably like I talked to It was great.
3:51
SPEAKER_00: I talked to Andrew from uh Rapids, yeah, and it was like he was the goalkeeper trainer and he's the physio and he's the head coach.
3:58
SPEAKER_00: It's like and and now you come with the staff of oh how many guys or girls are you bringing out for staff?
4:04
SPEAKER_00: Well, probably 14, you know.
4:07
SPEAKER_01: It's it's funny.
4:08
SPEAKER_01: I look at it now like my job has become uh kind of like a mini sporting director's role.
4:13
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I manage nine departments now.
4:14
SPEAKER_01: That's essentially what I did.
4:16
SPEAKER_01: So and that's physio and that is mental health medical equipment, sports performance, goalkeeping, the the different tiers of the teams, um ops.
4:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:28
SPEAKER_01: So there's yeah, there's nine departments that that's how I do it anyway.
4:32
SPEAKER_01: Everybody's a little bit different, but that's kind of how I do it.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: You said you miss the field.
4:35
SPEAKER_01: I do miss the field, yeah.
4:37
SPEAKER_00: So how do you make sure that you scratch that itch?
4:41
SPEAKER_00: Like are you do you get involved in any training sessions or anything, or train players on the side uh throughout the academy?
4:48
SPEAKER_01: Or what yeah, you know, the question's yes and no.
4:52
SPEAKER_01: Um the answer is yes or no.
4:54
SPEAKER_01: Uh at the beginning of the year, we had our 18 coach come in like a month late.
4:57
SPEAKER_01: So I took the 18s for the first month of preseason.
4:59
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: That was fantastic.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: I loved it, right?
5:02
SPEAKER_01: And then our 16 coach does some assistant work with the with the national team.
5:06
SPEAKER_01: So when he's gone, I'll jump in and take the team sometimes.
5:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, otherwise, you know, I think I know myself well enough now that it's I tend to take over.
5:17
SPEAKER_01: Like when I'm on the field, I'm probably not a great assistant coach.
5:21
SPEAKER_01: Um, so when I'm on the field, I tend to take over.
5:23
SPEAKER_01: So I have to be really careful of not jumping in sessions and kind of like monopolizing the session, if that makes sense.
5:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm kind of aware of that.
5:31
SPEAKER_01: And and you know, the way we do things, I'm really I mean, my role is to is, you know, is to I don't know, I'm gonna use the big throwaway word, uh, empower um my my coaches, right?
5:42
SPEAKER_01: And and uh we have a we have a set of guide rails, but within those guide rails, they have a lot of autonomy on what they do.
5:49
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I don't want to get in the way of that.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: That's how they develop, that's how they grow.
5:53
SPEAKER_00: Right.
5:54
SPEAKER_00: And how do you well, how much of your role is is developing staff versus making sure that the standard is there amongst the players?
6:05
SPEAKER_00: Or is that hand-to-hand, right?
6:06
SPEAKER_01: It is, it kind of all goes together.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: Right.
6:08
SPEAKER_01: I think ultimately, you know, it it it comes down to, you know, we talk about standards and people have, you know, models up on the wall and whatnot, but it it it ultimately comes down to the culture and the environment that you're creating.
6:20
SPEAKER_00: And the relationships you build within the building.
6:23
SPEAKER_01: It's it's about people, it's about connections ultimately.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: And that that goes for coaching as well.
6:28
SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you can't connect with your player, it's really hard to develop.
6:30
SPEAKER_01: Good buck.
6:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:32
SPEAKER_01: So I think that's the that's the biggest thing.
6:33
SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the things I've enjoyed most.
6:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think, you know, what whatever success kind of I've had um has come down to the fact that I feel like I connect pretty well with people.
6:45
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I care about them, and I create an environment where we're very open.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we challenge each other all the time and and and we're all pretty we're we're we're very much equals in what we do.
6:55
SPEAKER_01: So it's uh it tends to be a pretty good environment, I think.
6:59
SPEAKER_00: So you're not really removed from the field because you're around the kids every day.
7:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:04
SPEAKER_00: And you're probably developing your relationships with them as well.
7:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:08
SPEAKER_01: And it's unique because I can I can kind of pick out where a certain player maybe needs a little bit of love, a certain player needs to be held accountable, and not being in the coach's role gives me a little bit of flexibility there to manipulate that.
7:21
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
7:22
SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
7:23
SPEAKER_01: You almost I mean, how many of your players are away from home?
7:26
SPEAKER_01: Oh, quite a few.
7:27
SPEAKER_01: I mean, at the 15 and up, you know, we we have probably close to 30.
7:34
SPEAKER_00: 30.
7:34
SPEAKER_00: And so and so sometimes they need a somebody to talk to.
7:40
SPEAKER_00: Was it somebody to like maybe maybe they're homesick, or maybe they lost a family member or something like that, and they need a shoulder to cry on.
7:48
SPEAKER_00: Then there's that times that you need to like be like stern with them or or or quit uh clean up something.
7:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no question.
7:58
SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, I mean your leadership toolbox has to be pretty broad.
8:02
SPEAKER_01: If we want to do a good job at it.
8:03
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can you can be kind of specific in one thing and you're gonna and maybe you're gonna get success in that one kind of narrow band.
8:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, but if you want to have a more broader, which you need, right, in player development, because you never know.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: There's so many variables.
8:18
SPEAKER_01: You need to have a broad, a broad like leadership toolbox, I think.
8:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:22
SPEAKER_00: But right before uh Cincinnati, you were in Chicago?
8:25
SPEAKER_00: Is that right before?
8:26
SPEAKER_01: No, I was in Portland for four years.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was in the timbers for four years.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
8:31
SPEAKER_01: And then Chicago.
8:33
SPEAKER_01: Chicago was first.
8:34
SPEAKER_01: Chicago was first.
8:35
SPEAKER_01: I started everything up in Chicago.
8:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, stayed there until so the DA started in 2007.
8:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:43
SPEAKER_01: 2004, I started the like the Chicago Fire Juniors.
8:47
SPEAKER_01: So it was the first MLS youth club.
8:49
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
8:50
SPEAKER_01: Then we moved into the academy.
8:51
SPEAKER_01: I had the PDL team at that time too with Chicago.
8:54
SPEAKER_01: So we had the first like connected pathway um in Chicago.
8:57
SPEAKER_01: And I stayed there until 2015.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: How important was that?
9:01
SPEAKER_00: Because I I mean, look at Europe.
9:04
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, they've had it forever.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: And why why did it take eight years for that to happen?
9:10
SPEAKER_00: Do you think?
9:12
SPEAKER_00: For eight years for for for okay, so MLS starts in '96, right?
9:16
SPEAKER_00: Oh, for and you said 2004.
9:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:19
SPEAKER_00: But and then DA was 07.
9:22
SPEAKER_01: Well, 2004 was really was interesting because um I had stopped playing in Chicago.
9:27
SPEAKER_01: I I retired in Chicago.
9:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:29
SPEAKER_01: And I was doing, I was deciding whether I was gonna do like youth development stuff.
9:33
SPEAKER_01: I was doing some stuff with uh with the USSF coaching at that time.
9:37
SPEAKER_01: I was doing some college stuff.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: I was like, where am I going now that I'm done, right?
9:40
SPEAKER_01: And I and I focused in on uh on on youth, color development.
9:43
SPEAKER_01: And I ended up with a club, if you don't mind me telling the stories.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: So how it all started.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: I have all day.
9:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I ended up with a club.
9:50
SPEAKER_01: It was it was the Wheaton Wings, right?
9:52
SPEAKER_01: Small club in Wheaton, Illinois.
9:54
SPEAKER_01: And I was there were a couple different clubs offering me roles as DOCs.
9:58
SPEAKER_01: Um for some reason the board of directors at the Wheaton Wings had some people there that I was like, these guys are sharp.
10:05
SPEAKER_01: I wanna, I wanna be with these guys, even though maybe financially it wasn't as good as some of your other clubs.
10:10
SPEAKER_01: I was like, I wanna I want to tap into these guys and learn stuff, right?
10:13
SPEAKER_01: Because they were like bond traders and you know, guys that were really successful.
10:16
SPEAKER_00: Right.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: Um so I ended up with the Wings, and and as we it was the Wheaton Wings, there was a club literally across the tracks called the Wheat and Falcons.
10:25
SPEAKER_01: And they were never able to bring those two clubs together for whatever reason.
10:28
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I'm gonna bring them together.
10:30
SPEAKER_01: I went and sat down with the president of the Wheaton Falcons, and and sure, sure enough, we emerged that club and we become Wheat and United.
10:37
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
10:38
SPEAKER_01: Then on the other side was a club called Neighborville Lightning, bigger, bigger club in Naperville at the time.
10:43
SPEAKER_01: We're like, why don't we bring this all together?
10:46
SPEAKER_01: And we were looking like, what's the impetus to bring this all together?
10:48
SPEAKER_01: And we started talking about DuPage County.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: So that's out in the western burbs of Chicago, it's DuPage County.
10:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:54
SPEAKER_01: And we said, okay, DuPage County United, DC United.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: Peter Wilk was the president of the fire at the time, right?
11:02
SPEAKER_01: And I had played for Peter at a couple different clubs.
11:04
SPEAKER_01: So I called Peter and I said, Hey Peter, we're doing this club out here, it's gonna be called DuPage County United, DC United.
11:09
SPEAKER_01: And he goes, like hell you are.
11:11
SPEAKER_01: So I go, All right, then let's talk.
11:13
SPEAKER_01: I have an idea.
11:14
SPEAKER_01: And this was the birth of the Chicago Fire Juniors, and that thing blew up.
11:19
SPEAKER_01: Right.
11:20
SPEAKER_01: That was the first MLS youth club, and that blew up.
11:24
SPEAKER_01: And then some plans were moving around about MLS supporting development.
11:32
SPEAKER_01: Then the US US Avia did the DA, and then Chicago had the academy, and I rolled that all together and leveraged some different pieces because the investment at that time, you know, you mentioned it.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: I was coaching like every team.
11:46
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
11:46
SPEAKER_01: You know, so the investment wasn't there.
11:48
SPEAKER_01: So we had to find ways to like leverage the financial piece somehow.
11:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, and with Peter Wilt, we always said it was about um, it was about brand, it was about revenue, and it was about player development.
12:01
SPEAKER_01: And I had to figure out a way to take the brand and the revenue and leverage that so I could do what I really wanted to do, which was player development.
12:07
SPEAKER_00: Did that give you a leg up?
12:09
SPEAKER_00: Uh being under that brand, the Chicago Fire and the MLS brand, did that allow you to catch up to maybe the soccer or the magic uh like qualker?
12:19
SPEAKER_01: Overnight we were kind of on the same playing field.
12:22
SPEAKER_01: Overnight we became like the biggest club in Illinois.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, everybody wanted to come, and then all you know, and you get the State Cups and all that stuff started to come to the Chicago Fire Juniors, which then when when the DA started, gave Chicago a little bit of an advantage because we had a big pool of players in the Chicago area that we could immediately go to.
12:39
SPEAKER_01: Right.
12:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and I think look, Chicago has a lot of good players.
12:43
SPEAKER_01: He's great talent.
12:44
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
12:44
SPEAKER_01: Um so that was, you know, we won the first, we were the first MLS team to win the DA championship.
12:49
SPEAKER_01: What year was that?
12:50
SPEAKER_01: Oh seven?
12:50
SPEAKER_01: 2010.
12:52
SPEAKER_01: I think that was 2010.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: Under 16 DA championship.
12:55
SPEAKER_01: Because before that, remember like Carmel United won it a couple times.
12:58
SPEAKER_00: Vardar won one.
12:59
SPEAKER_01: Vardar won one, yeah, yep, yeah, for sure.
13:02
SPEAKER_01: I was on that traffic uh for a time.
13:03
SPEAKER_01: I was doing their goalkeeping.
13:05
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
13:05
SPEAKER_01: I remember you, I I I saw you were in Chicago, uh Michig Michigan for a long time.
13:08
SPEAKER_00: Yep, yeah, yeah, and uh with Demir.
13:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know if you know Demir.
13:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so where's he now?
13:14
SPEAKER_00: He's still a Vard.
13:15
SPEAKER_00: Well, okay, so great guy.
13:18
SPEAKER_00: So excellent.
13:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so Vardar no longer has girls.
13:22
SPEAKER_00: Okay, and they went to Liverpool, which was former Boomfield Force, got it, and they're in the ECNL.
13:29
SPEAKER_00: So did me Demir's running he's the E CNL director.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: That's great.
13:33
SPEAKER_00: You know, he's not really on the boys' side.
13:34
SPEAKER_00: I mean, Vardar has such a long lineage of players and stuff.
13:37
SPEAKER_00: They did well here.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: They got knocked out on uh PK's yesterday.
13:41
SPEAKER_00: It's a great club, historic club.
13:42
SPEAKER_00: Yep, and I kind of it's smaller than it used to be, you know.
13:48
SPEAKER_00: I kind of worry about you know the longevity.
13:50
SPEAKER_00: I mean, soccer isn't exactly what it used to be, you know.
13:54
SPEAKER_01: Davis still does a great job.
13:56
SPEAKER_01: Of course, he has he has such a good culture, you know.
13:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but you know, soccer's changing.
14:01
SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, it's you're starting to see on the youth end look, you're still I mean, you're seeing funds invest in youth clubs.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: The private equity.
14:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, the game's changing.
14:11
SPEAKER_01: The game's changing a lot.
14:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:12
SPEAKER_01: I did a master's degree a few years ago, sporting directorship.
14:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, and one of the reasons I did it is because I wanted to learn more about MCOs and the business of soccer.
14:21
SPEAKER_00: What's the MCO?
14:22
SPEAKER_01: Uh multi-club uh ownership group.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: You know, so like pioneer group and whatnot, right?
14:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
14:27
SPEAKER_01: So I was really intrigued, I've been intrigued for a long time about that.
14:30
SPEAKER_01: And one of the reasons I wanted to get this degree was because I wanted to like sharpen up on that kind of stuff.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: Because I think it's changing.
14:37
SPEAKER_01: It's you see it coming into the youth world.
14:39
SPEAKER_01: So how do we again, if you go back to what I said about leveraging revenue and brand for what's important, player development?
14:48
SPEAKER_01: I should say revenue and brand aren't court, they are, but but the player development is the most important thing.
14:52
SPEAKER_01: So now you see this fund money coming in.
14:54
SPEAKER_01: How do we leverage that so there's better value for these families or for the players?
14:59
SPEAKER_01: And and they can actually prosper from that.
15:02
SPEAKER_01: I think there's a way to do it because look, pay to play is not going away.
15:06
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
15:06
SPEAKER_01: Or can it?
15:07
SPEAKER_01: It can.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: It can't.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: And and and everybody says there's no pay to play in Europe and this and that.
15:11
SPEAKER_01: It's just it's scale.
15:13
SPEAKER_00: It's just the scale is different.
15:14
SPEAKER_00: It's the scale, it's the government subsidizing it.
15:17
SPEAKER_00: It's it's somebody's paying the bill.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: It's not free.
15:21
SPEAKER_01: And and I think, you know, and the other thing, like when you talk about player development and people talking about promotion relegation, it's not all like roses and promotion relegation and development.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: Trust me, a lot of players get left behind because it's all about winning.
15:36
SPEAKER_01: And if we complain about people being all about winning now, if it goes to promotion relegation, you go go to Europe and play in Europe.
15:42
SPEAKER_01: Now I understand it breeds a different player, it's more competitive, it's survival of the fittest.
15:47
SPEAKER_01: Of course.
15:47
SPEAKER_01: But a lot of kids get lost too.
15:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:49
SPEAKER_01: A lot of kids get left behind.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: You know, exactly.
15:51
SPEAKER_01: So you can't have it both ways.
15:53
SPEAKER_01: Or it's hard to have both ways.
15:54
SPEAKER_00: And it's almost like you get a shorter leash, you don't get time over there.
15:59
SPEAKER_00: My son, my son went to Spain at 15.
16:01
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
16:01
SPEAKER_01: You know what kind of feedback you get?
16:03
SPEAKER_00: This episode is brought to you by Camp Shutout, the largest goalkeeper camp in the world.
16:08
SPEAKER_00: There are still spots available in the Little Big Show, ages 10 to 13.
16:14
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16:21
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16:24
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16:28
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16:33
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16:37
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16:41
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16:48
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16:55
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17:04
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17:07
SPEAKER_01: You're in the 11 or you're not, you're in the 18 or you're not.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: There's no feedback, there's no parents going to talk to a coach, there's no coach coming to talk to a player.
17:16
SPEAKER_01: That's all there is.
17:17
SPEAKER_01: It's like survival or or you're out.
17:19
SPEAKER_01: Where was he at?
17:20
SPEAKER_01: He started off at uh Levante.
17:22
SPEAKER_01: Oh.
17:23
SPEAKER_01: And then uh he went from Levante, he moved up to Barcelona to Sabade and finished up at Dam.
17:28
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
17:29
SPEAKER_01: Uh in Barcelona.
17:30
SPEAKER_01: And then he his first professional team was um Santanderu.
17:34
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I talked to Aleco about this a little bit, about the promotion and relegation.
17:39
SPEAKER_00: It's like I don't think people realize how much money clubs lose every single year.
17:47
SPEAKER_00: They feel and and if we want to develop that model, you better you better be willing to lose a lot of money.
17:54
SPEAKER_00: The Western New York Flash, that's what took me out to Buffalo originally.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I went to do their goalkeeping for the NWSL team.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: They were the ones that paid Marta like$250,000 or$500,000.
18:09
SPEAKER_00: And that was a loss.
18:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that was$500,000 loss right off the books.
18:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, how many league, how many professional leagues prior to MLS can you name?
18:19
SPEAKER_01: Pick pick an alphabet suit exact and throw it out there.
18:22
SPEAKER_01: Right.
18:22
SPEAKER_01: And and you know, people forget the history, people forget why MLS came about and how how it became successful.
18:30
SPEAKER_01: Okay, you may you may be against that idea of a single entity.
18:34
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I I get it, but it's not as easy as just saying we it we should be promotional relegation, there shouldn't be.
18:40
SPEAKER_01: Anybody can get in.
18:41
SPEAKER_01: It's not that easy.
18:42
SPEAKER_01: It's right.
18:43
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: Don't get me wrong, if we could do promotional relegation and have cultures built around clubs and and the emotion, and maybe there are some very good things developmentally about that, that's great.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: But but let's understand you also have to be sustainability.
18:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's something's gotta be sustainable, right?
18:59
SPEAKER_01: Right, and it's it's not as easy as people make it think that they might think it is, you know.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: And so in Buffalo, FC Buffalo, they're a USL2 side, and they go like they're like hell asking for help for for funds because Buffalo isn't Chicago, it's not it's not even Michigan, where there's nine or ten USL2 teams and everything is is a day trip.
19:27
SPEAKER_00: Yep, they have to go, they have to go to like Connecticut for a game.
19:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they have to go all the way to Toledo for a game, and it's like uh that's a night trip, and that's that's multi-thousands of dollars, and they don't have it because they're not making money.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: It's not like they're selling players or anything like that.
19:45
SPEAKER_01: No, it it's it's really interesting when you look at the business of of football.
19:48
SPEAKER_01: Uh it's nowadays you're really not making money on the team.
19:53
SPEAKER_01: You're making money on the commercial aspects around the team and the real estate, that type of stuff.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
20:00
SPEAKER_01: It's not the team, you know, and and transfers in the United States, it's not like Europe, you know, where there's so many different teams to move around, so many different pathways.
20:10
SPEAKER_01: Um, we're still infants at that.
20:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think when you look at, you know, if you look at some of these USL teams coming along now, what are they doing?
20:18
SPEAKER_01: They're building entertainment districts around their stadium with apartments and real estate.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's how they're sustaining, right?
20:27
SPEAKER_00: You just said we're infants.
20:29
SPEAKER_00: I keep on harping on how young we still are as a nation, as a soccer nation, football nation.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I mean, if just the MLS Nets, that's six years.
20:42
SPEAKER_00: Everybody's at so so I so I've been doing this thing with youth national teams.
20:47
SPEAKER_00: Okay, and they're they're rosters.
20:50
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
20:51
SPEAKER_00: And if it's the girls side, I want us I want somebody to break it down.
20:55
SPEAKER_00: Give me their the E C how many ECNL girls, how many GA girls, and whatnot.
21:00
SPEAKER_00: Then I do the same on the boys.
21:02
SPEAKER_00: And on the boys' side, it's mostly Amos Academies at the youth level.
21:06
SPEAKER_00: It's just how it is.
21:08
SPEAKER_00: It makes perfect sense.
21:08
SPEAKER_00: They're in the most professional environment.
21:10
SPEAKER_00: They're and you guys are so good at identifying the best players and getting them in your system.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just economies of scale, right?
21:19
SPEAKER_01: It's such a big country, you have to go where the players are gonna be.
21:24
SPEAKER_01: So so MLS scales that for U.S.
21:26
SPEAKER_01: soccer, right?
21:27
SPEAKER_01: Because we all have our scouting departments now in MLS.
21:29
SPEAKER_01: We find players are bringing in.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: So it's it's it hasn't changed, right?
21:33
SPEAKER_01: It was ODP years ago, exactly.
21:36
SPEAKER_00: And so the leaks started coming out of the MLS or uh the men's national team roster.
21:42
SPEAKER_00: And I jokingly just said, can somebody break down how many guys put in the MLS next?
21:48
SPEAKER_00: How many guys put in the ECNL, and then how many uh put in the former DA?
21:53
SPEAKER_00: And somebody was like, Zero.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, guys, a lot of these guys put in the DA, but and then and Somebody's like, yeah, MLS Next sucks because there's zero.
22:04
SPEAKER_00: I was like, MLS Next is six years old.
22:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:07
SPEAKER_00: Of course there's not.
22:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: It's frustrating.
22:10
SPEAKER_00: I know.
22:11
SPEAKER_01: But but it's it's you know, I I I do look at social media.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: I'm not big on social media, but I do look at it.
22:19
SPEAKER_01: And there's times I want to respond.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: I can't tell you how many times I've touched the horse.
22:22
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I can't do this in my position.
22:24
SPEAKER_01: So I just messaged them out.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's interesting, you know.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: There's so much.
22:33
SPEAKER_00: This guy names Yops.
22:35
SPEAKER_00: I'm guessing I got into one.
22:38
SPEAKER_00: So Orlando was down a man.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: They got a red card.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: And then um, I mean, a ball went out of bounds, and a parent.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: Like a parent.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: So one of the uh younger Orlando players that was watching it uh went after the ball, and then one, and then one of the Barcelona parents went after the kids who just grabbed the ball, and they were down 2-0 at the time, I believe.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: And so that's where look at all look at this crowd.
23:07
SPEAKER_00: What a crowd.
23:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I took some I took some pictures and somebody around my time at Fest, I had a lot of high school people on, like high school coaches, yeah.
23:18
SPEAKER_00: And like, where can you get 300 people to come and watch a game?
23:23
SPEAKER_00: This is thousands, yeah.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: And they're they're all coming to watch.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: I mean they going to watch the when they take the the name on the bullshit?
23:33
SPEAKER_01: So because it's uh it's under the tent now.
23:35
SPEAKER_01: Oh, they moved around.
23:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I wonder what they're doing because of the wind.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: But I mean, look at this.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: This is nuts.
23:41
SPEAKER_00: And I mean, yeah.
23:43
SPEAKER_00: It's great, it's incredible.
23:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean to be honest with you, you know, you don't see this in Europe.
23:54
SPEAKER_01: Like when you go to tournaments, you don't have tournaments like when you go to my Spanish boy right there.
24:01
SPEAKER_01: Um you know, you go to Europe, you don't have tournaments like this, or like it you like the GA and stuff like that.
24:07
SPEAKER_01: It's it's so different when I bring people from Europe over to like, wow, this is crazy, the scale of it.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: See, I get pushback on that too.
24:14
SPEAKER_00: People are like, oh, the milk cup.
24:15
SPEAKER_01: It's like okay, but that's different.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: But it's multiple nations.
24:19
SPEAKER_00: This is one country.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: This is one country being represented.
24:22
SPEAKER_00: Well, can't Toronto.
24:24
SPEAKER_01: There's there's a lot of misnomers out there about Europe, about uh people that haven't really studied it and spent time and gone over there.
24:30
SPEAKER_01: There's there's a lot of mystique and mystery out there, you know, like Spain only has good football.
24:37
SPEAKER_01: No, there's bad football in Spain too, trust.
24:40
SPEAKER_01: Right.
24:40
SPEAKER_01: You know, I used to spend so much time there.
24:43
SPEAKER_01: There was one time I uh there is a difference though.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: So I'll I'll tell you what I what I kind of learned.
24:48
SPEAKER_01: Um I was in uh Valencia and I had a weekend where I wasn't really doing anything.
24:52
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, you know what?
24:54
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna go try to find bad football.
24:56
SPEAKER_01: So I just I drove around and I was looking for the lights at installations at different training centers, and I saw some lights.
25:01
SPEAKER_01: Um looking, I finally I found one.
25:03
SPEAKER_01: I pull in, I walk up, and there's some parents sitting there having beers and smoking cigarettes and everything.
25:08
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, by the way, that's how I want to retire, having beers and just watching games with the with the gray-haired guys.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: But I I walked over and I sat down and said hi to some people.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: I sat down and I watched, and I'm watching the warm-up, and I go, This is bad.
25:21
SPEAKER_01: This is gonna be bad.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: So I'm looking at the players.
25:23
SPEAKER_01: They were like probably you 16, 17.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, this is gonna be bad.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: I'm watching them technically when they're warm up, like, this is bad.
25:28
SPEAKER_01: So the game starts.
25:29
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't great.
25:31
SPEAKER_01: Difference was they had a better understanding tactically on how to play than our players do.
25:38
SPEAKER_01: You know why that is?
25:39
SPEAKER_01: Because their grandfather's grandfather, grandfather passed on to their dad, and then dad passed it on, and they watch games and they talk about games and nonstop.
25:46
SPEAKER_01: That's a culture we're we're years in the making with that, right?
25:51
SPEAKER_01: But there is bad football everywhere, just like there's Barcelona.
25:56
SPEAKER_02: Right.
25:57
SPEAKER_01: You know, and I think people have to keep that in mind.
26:01
SPEAKER_01: Um and and it's you know, and the pathway in Europe, there are more opportunities, right?
26:11
SPEAKER_01: Because there are so many levels and so many divisions, and and country to country you can move, right?
26:17
SPEAKER_01: Right.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: Um but it's hard.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: It's hard.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're you're competing with guys that that are popular, they've gotten through at some point, they've battled through this, you know, no feedback.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: You know, you're the 11 or you're not, and so it's it's it's a different uh cultures are different.
26:36
SPEAKER_00: Do you think so there's bad soccer everywhere?
26:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: Do you think our And there are good coaches and bad coaches at work?
26:45
SPEAKER_00: Do you think our best is catching their best?
26:48
SPEAKER_01: You know, I think again, we're getting there, right?
26:54
SPEAKER_01: And it's it's always like there's gonna be so much negativity and there's gonna be clickbait on it, obviously, right?
27:02
SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, do our academies compete with their do our top academies compete with their top academies?
27:08
SPEAKER_01: For the most part.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: Um you know, there's something that that's always kind of like stuck me a little bit odd.
27:17
SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm looking at Cincinnati.
27:19
SPEAKER_01: Um Cincinnati's produced a lot of professional athletes.
27:22
SPEAKER_01: That it in in historically, absolutely baseball and football.
27:26
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
27:26
SPEAKER_01: Right?
27:27
SPEAKER_01: The average age of a rookie in the NFL is 22.
27:31
SPEAKER_01: The average age of a rookie in Major League Baseball is 24.
27:34
SPEAKER_01: We're trying to make 17-year-olds pros.
27:38
SPEAKER_00: Because that's what the rest of the world does.
27:39
SPEAKER_01: That's what the rest of the world does.
27:41
SPEAKER_01: So we're yeah, we're playing catch up, we're changing things culturally, we got to change things developmentally, we have to open our mind a little bit more.
27:47
SPEAKER_01: If we want 17s to be pros, like Europe, and by the way, it it's still it's not all 17s turn a pro in Europe.
27:55
SPEAKER_01: Of course.
27:55
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
27:56
SPEAKER_01: There's these romantic stories always of the 17-year-old, and that's what gets all the, you know.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: This is what frustrates me is that everybody uh La Messia or La Massia or whatever, I whatever.
28:08
SPEAKER_00: Everybody wants to copy what they do, but nobody talks about the kids that they release every single month or a year.
28:18
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, what happened to the kid that Messi replaced?
28:21
SPEAKER_00: Messi got there at 13 and fell on their lap.
28:24
SPEAKER_00: What happened to the kid that they replaced?
28:26
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
28:26
SPEAKER_00: They act like every kid that goes to that academy at eight years old turns into Xavier Ninesta.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: It's just not true.
28:34
SPEAKER_00: There's so many varieties.
28:36
SPEAKER_01: Now, they do a very good job of it, obviously, right?
28:39
SPEAKER_01: Of course.
28:39
SPEAKER_01: But but don't forget, by the time you've gotten there, you've filtered through so many different levels to get to Barcelona, right?
28:47
SPEAKER_01: So, so you're not there's not as much guesswork for them.
28:51
SPEAKER_01: Okay, because just think about Catalunya.
28:54
SPEAKER_01: They've all they've all proven somewhere else before they even get there, even if they're 13.
28:59
SPEAKER_01: I can tell you, I've I've been through it in Spain with my son.
29:02
SPEAKER_01: Catalunya, that's he played Division Denor in Catalunya, and and Barcelona just picks the best of the best from the area and take him in.
29:09
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
29:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:10
SPEAKER_01: So that's you know, that it's everybody wants to look at the romance of it and they don't really dig deep under it.
29:17
SPEAKER_01: And everybody looks at Barcelona.
29:18
SPEAKER_01: Where did Barcelona start?
29:19
SPEAKER_01: Barcelona is a bottom-up system that was started years ago based on the playing style of the academy that they built the first time of.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: With Johhan, yeah, exactly.
29:29
SPEAKER_01: So so it was kind of, if you think about it, opposite of a lot of things we do.
29:33
SPEAKER_01: Here, we're very much top-down now, which changed when the MLS came around.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: We were bottom-up for years before MLS.
29:39
SPEAKER_01: And then when MLS came in, we began to flip that pyramid a little bit.
29:42
SPEAKER_01: Because don't forget, you know, 20 years ago, soccer in the United States was run by the youth category.
29:48
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
29:49
SPEAKER_01: Because that's where all the money was, that's where the power was, right?
29:52
SPEAKER_01: But that's, I think that's flipped a bit.
29:55
SPEAKER_01: And again, that's gonna take time to, you know, we're we are infants, and it's gonna take time.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, people ask me about Next Pro.
30:02
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, Next Pro's young, it's evolving.
30:05
SPEAKER_01: It's three years old.
30:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, is it giving us all the answers we want right now?
30:09
SPEAKER_01: No, but we have to learn too.
30:11
SPEAKER_01: There's so many things in soccer, like, you know, people always talk about can't you learn from the mistakes of the past.
30:17
SPEAKER_01: Well, people still make the mistakes they've been making in the last 300 years today.
30:21
SPEAKER_01: So that's not going to change because because evolution is part of the game.
30:25
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes you just have to be patient enough, it it will come through eventually.
30:32
SPEAKER_01: I believe that.
30:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:34
SPEAKER_00: But you have to be patient because you can't you can't force it.
30:37
SPEAKER_00: Do you think that some do you think in the past it was forced?
30:41
SPEAKER_00: Like I I always talk about the difference between the DA and the MLS next.
30:46
SPEAKER_00: And I feel just it that's so different.
30:49
SPEAKER_00: It's very different.
30:50
SPEAKER_00: I I think is and it's different people in charge.
30:53
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
30:54
SPEAKER_00: You know, Luis was still playing, yes, and and now he's running this.
30:58
SPEAKER_00: Yes, you know, Fred wasn't Fred was more involved with the full MLS.
31:03
SPEAKER_00: Fred was the player development.
31:05
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
31:05
SPEAKER_00: And and it's not the same.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: A lot of people and even me, I thought it was just, oh, we're just rebranding or selling and whatnot.
31:14
SPEAKER_00: But it's completely different.
31:17
SPEAKER_00: And it's not what it was.
31:18
SPEAKER_00: But I do wonder why the are we the only country where the federation isn't actively involved in the youth?
31:27
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if we're the only, but we're it's certainly a question.
31:31
SPEAKER_01: We're certainly probably the biggest.
31:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's certainly a question.
31:34
SPEAKER_01: You know, you could ask, would things be better if the federation had more hands-on input, more hands-on.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: You know, uh it's a good question.
31:44
SPEAKER_00: Because I I because I always go through this whole the history of it.
31:51
SPEAKER_00: Founded in 1913 and didn't actually get their fingerprints on their own league until 2007.
31:59
SPEAKER_00: It's almost a hundred years.
32:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:00
SPEAKER_00: You know, other than they contracted it out or they were partners with USYSA or AYSO and and and we talk about how young we are.
32:14
SPEAKER_00: Is their only primary focus on the national team, which I feel like that's good and it should be.
32:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, and are we the only nation where the league, our biggest league, is in charge of the youth?
32:28
SPEAKER_00: MLS next and MLS.
32:31
SPEAKER_01: I I mean, I I can't speak categorically, but I I I think it's you know, the the FA does not run right, the the English leagues.
32:42
SPEAKER_01: So they run the the you know FA does not run the Premier League, is what I'm saying.
32:47
SPEAKER_00: Right, exactly.
32:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:48
SPEAKER_01: So um yeah, I I it the I think the question that begs then is should US soccer have a little bit more control or a little bit I don't know, man.
33:02
SPEAKER_01: I'm such a it's such a tough one.
33:05
SPEAKER_00: Or give us a give us a path, you know.
33:07
SPEAKER_00: When they say, Oh, you guys can do whatever you want in terms of the age change.
33:11
SPEAKER_00: It's like, wait, what?
33:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:13
SPEAKER_01: Well, and just even even the the just the the alphabet soup of leagues, yeah.
33:19
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I it's hard for me to keep track of, you know, I'm focused more on one, but it's hard to keep track of all of them anymore, you know?
33:25
SPEAKER_00: It's like what's N what's N1?
33:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, it seems like a different thing, you know, and and I I guess as capitalists we would say, okay, the better ones will survive and the other ones will die out.
33:38
SPEAKER_01: But if the other ones are always they're kind of just rebranding and reimagining themselves, they never really go away because for better or worse, the the the youth sports market in the United States is incredibly profitable.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
33:57
SPEAKER_00: It is I mean and we and we talk about going back to the promotion and relegation thing and dream.
34:08
SPEAKER_00: There's golden parachutes.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: If you get relegated, you're given money to make sure that you stay afloat.
34:14
SPEAKER_01: But if you don't get back up in three years, it you might you're done.
34:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
34:19
SPEAKER_00: Wrexham was almost going to fold, yeah.
34:22
SPEAKER_00: One of the oldest clubs in the world, right?
34:24
SPEAKER_00: And and that happens, and people don't realize that.
34:28
SPEAKER_00: But here, it being a capitalist country, I feel like all this money is getting poured into it, and now you're seeing Congress talk about breaking up private equity.
34:41
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
34:41
SPEAKER_00: And I was talking to college.
34:43
SPEAKER_01: Look at college.
34:44
SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
34:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:46
SPEAKER_00: I mean so your players, what do you think of the college game?
34:52
SPEAKER_00: Is men's is men's college soccer going to exist in 10-15 years as we know it now?
34:59
SPEAKER_01: It I would doubt as we know it now.
35:02
SPEAKER_01: Right.
35:03
SPEAKER_01: Um, I hope it exists.
35:04
SPEAKER_01: I it plays a really important role in not just player development, but like the social aspect of of athletics and and and developing young men and young women.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's so important that I I hope it doesn't become overly professionalized.
35:19
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, you look at it now, there's like, I mean, where what's loyalty in college sports though?
35:26
SPEAKER_01: I mean, from coaches and from players.
35:29
SPEAKER_01: I mean, my son went from, you know, he was a soccer player, right?
35:32
SPEAKER_01: Um he was FC Cincinnati's first home growth sonious goalkeeper.
35:37
SPEAKER_01: Okay, got five concussions in his last season, so medically couldn't get clear.
35:41
SPEAKER_01: Now he's kicking the football, right?
35:42
SPEAKER_01: So he he kicked at Texas State.
35:45
SPEAKER_01: Then he, you gotta get in the portal.
35:47
SPEAKER_01: What's going on?
35:48
SPEAKER_01: Right, goes in the portal, Michigan.
35:50
SPEAKER_01: So he ends up in Michigan last year, right?
35:52
SPEAKER_01: Really?
35:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:53
SPEAKER_01: He he did all the kickoffs in Michigan last year.
35:55
SPEAKER_01: He was beating groomed to be the number one place kicker at Michigan last year.
35:58
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
35:58
SPEAKER_01: And Michigan had the big, you know, whole scandal.
36:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:01
SPEAKER_01: So he ended up moving again.
36:02
SPEAKER_01: He's at Minnesota now.
36:03
SPEAKER_01: But my my point.
36:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
36:07
SPEAKER_01: So so but my my point is when I talk to him, he's like, Dad, Texas State, it was a new team every year, basically.
36:14
SPEAKER_01: You know, like these guys are like in and out of the portal, just moving, moving around, like trying to contract here.
36:20
SPEAKER_01: I can get more money here.
36:21
SPEAKER_01: It's it's crazy.
36:22
SPEAKER_01: It's crazy.
36:23
SPEAKER_01: And also, how do you build, how do you build the culture?
36:26
SPEAKER_01: How do you build loyalty?
36:27
SPEAKER_01: How do you know it's it's different?
36:31
SPEAKER_00: So, so a close family friend uh is Trey McKinney's father.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: And and Trey McKinney, you know, national title basketball player, 4.5 million dollars in NIL.
36:42
SPEAKER_00: The money's crazy, and money's crazy.
36:44
SPEAKER_00: And I'm hearing Clemson, right?
36:46
SPEAKER_00: So Mike Newman or Clemson was at a portal showcase up in Ontario.
36:55
SPEAKER_00: They showed up for one kid, offered him$60,000 on top of scholarship per year, and it's like, hey, we want you to come.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: And it was like$60.
37:04
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you got$4.5 million, but$60K is huge for a 19, 20-year-old kid.
37:11
SPEAKER_01: How long it took me to make$60,000 playing professionally back in the day, or coaching professionally?
37:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, crazy.
37:18
SPEAKER_01: I mean I mean, look, good good for them.
37:21
SPEAKER_01: And to of course to a certain extent, they've been exploited by by the system and by college, college sports, right?
37:29
SPEAKER_01: Because it's a marketplace for sure.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: Right.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: But I'm not sure just I'm not sure just opening opening the doors and kind of like having no structure to what's happening.
37:39
SPEAKER_01: I I don't think it's healthy for players.
37:41
SPEAKER_01: You know, an 18-year-old kid, I'm getting so much money by going to this school, the next year he's out, he's gonna go to another school, the next year he's going to another school.
37:48
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
37:49
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
37:50
SPEAKER_00: Do you think that and I've and I've had a few conversations about MLS next territories or MLS territories.
37:58
SPEAKER_00: Do you think that prevents some of that player movement or like we see in the transfer portal?
38:05
SPEAKER_00: It's protected in the movement.
38:08
SPEAKER_01: I think historically it has, right?
38:10
SPEAKER_01: And I and I think if you if you consider where that came from, right?
38:15
SPEAKER_01: Again, there is an aspect of um the owner buys a franchise and he buys a territory with that franchise.
38:27
SPEAKER_01: Now that's true, there's commercial territory, and now there's player development territory, which is called homegrown territory.
38:34
SPEAKER_01: Right.
38:34
SPEAKER_01: So it it makes sense when you start to look at it that way.
38:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think I I think initially the the homegrown rules have been loosened, let's say, quite a bit over the years.
38:49
SPEAKER_01: So now it's, you know, now you can protect 35 players plus plus nine, right?
38:55
SPEAKER_01: Which are those are players within your territory that are not in your academy, but have had to have been offered a spot in your academy, if that makes sense.
39:03
SPEAKER_01: Oh okay.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: So so now if you look at it, so if you if you look at, for instance, the New York market.
39:09
SPEAKER_01: Yes, density and diversity.
39:12
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
39:13
SPEAKER_01: That's what that is what a talent pool is built of, density and diversity.
39:17
SPEAKER_01: Okay?
39:18
SPEAKER_01: So so New York, dense and diverse, great talent pool.
39:24
SPEAKER_01: The perhaps, I'm just not I'm not this is not factual, but perhaps perhaps the third best player in New York could be the best player in Cincinnati, and I could take him and I could develop him over four or five years into a really great player.
39:38
SPEAKER_01: Old old days, I couldn't do that because the franchise owned the right nowadays it's 35.
39:47
SPEAKER_01: So now I I have to make sure I have the right 35 for Cincinnati.
39:52
SPEAKER_01: You know, Sean has to make sure he's got the right 35 from from New York, right?
39:57
SPEAKER_01: And then other the other players outside that over the age of 14, let's just call it ballpark 14, are open.
40:04
SPEAKER_01: So now I so now the scouting system of MLS has developed in relation to that.
40:10
SPEAKER_01: The ages over 14?
40:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 14 and over.
40:12
SPEAKER_01: If you're not on a protected list, right?
40:14
SPEAKER_01: If you're not one of the 35, you can go anywhere you want.
40:17
SPEAKER_01: They're free.
40:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
40:18
unknown: Yeah.
40:18
SPEAKER_01: That's I mean, that's why I have 30 players from outside of our territory.
40:24
SPEAKER_00: How is Ohio split in terms of sorry?
40:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:29
SPEAKER_00: Because crew, yeah, is it old days like Ohio North and Ohio South?
40:33
SPEAKER_01: Kind of.
40:34
SPEAKER_01: We we share certain we share certain counties.
40:37
SPEAKER_01: Really?
40:37
SPEAKER_01: And then other counties are ours and and theirs.
40:40
SPEAKER_00: Really?
40:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
40:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
40:42
SPEAKER_00: How does New York City work?
40:45
SPEAKER_01: So you have you have Red Bull, yeah.
40:48
SPEAKER_01: NYCFC, you have Philly, that all kind of overlap some different pieces of their territory.
40:53
SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
40:54
SPEAKER_01: So it it gets I don't I don't I'm not in that territory, but it can get a little dicey.
40:59
SPEAKER_01: I think that it's it's so much better now that you have to actually tag your 35.
41:05
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
41:05
SPEAKER_01: Uh plus nine.
41:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, plus your nine.
41:08
SPEAKER_01: And and what's what's happened, I always I always had an issue with it because, you know, a freedom of movement, players should be able to go where they want to go, right?
41:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think this enables a bit a bit of that because because theoretically, if if you're one of the 35 tag players, you're an important player to the academy, right?
41:27
SPEAKER_01: You're getting significant playing time, you should be being developed, you should be happy where you're at.
41:32
SPEAKER_01: Theoretically.
41:34
SPEAKER_01: There's always parts to that.
41:35
SPEAKER_00: But when I had Jordan Allenum, we started talking about territories just a little bit, and some questions came up, or almost accusations came up of well, if that kid doesn't want to sign with this MLS Academy, you can still block them from going to Seattle Sounders or something like that.
41:56
SPEAKER_00: Is that does that happen?
41:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, I my experience, no, it has not happened.
42:04
SPEAKER_00: In my experience, everybody that I've talked to, I even talked to Jordan about this off-air.
42:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's like this doesn't happen.
42:11
SPEAKER_00: People think it does.
42:12
SPEAKER_01: And I was talking to that's marketed against too, right?
42:15
SPEAKER_01: We can market against MLS clubs by saying, Oh, they block your availability, they block your opportunity.
42:20
SPEAKER_00: If I'm a non-MLS club, how much lying goes on?
42:25
SPEAKER_00: This is what this is for.
42:26
SPEAKER_00: This is why I'm here, I think.
42:28
SPEAKER_00: This is why Luis brought me here is that there's so much lying going on.
42:33
SPEAKER_00: There's and they're trying to be more transparent.
42:36
SPEAKER_00: And by having me here, people learn a little bit more about the whole environment.
42:43
SPEAKER_01: Well, look, I think FC Cincinnati, one of the ways we we have a different market.
42:47
SPEAKER_01: We we don't have a New York market.
42:48
SPEAKER_01: So we had to innovate.
42:50
SPEAKER_01: And when I first got there, I started talking to our people about you know, how do we create intra-academy trades?
42:58
SPEAKER_01: So so we've kind of we've kind of led in that.
43:00
SPEAKER_01: Like, what do you mean by that?
43:01
SPEAKER_01: Well, um, there's a player at RSL that maybe isn't back before the 35, that maybe isn't playing a lot, maybe doesn't fit their playing style, but maybe fits our playing style perfectly.
43:15
SPEAKER_01: Right.
43:16
SPEAKER_01: How do we come to an agreement so that player can come to us?
43:19
SPEAKER_01: And and we do that now.
43:20
SPEAKER_01: Across MLS does that now.
43:21
SPEAKER_01: We we have, you know, um we we allow players to move within academies.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: And if a player is signed to a homegrown contract, so if I bring a 15-year-old player from New York who maybe doesn't fit New York style anymore, they're willing to let him come to us.
43:35
SPEAKER_01: We make an agreement.
43:36
SPEAKER_01: If he signs a homegrown contract, we got to give him 50 GAM, 50k and GAM, or right.
43:42
SPEAKER_01: You negotiate all that stuff now.
43:44
SPEAKER_01: So there's inter there's interacademy trades now happening quite often.
43:48
SPEAKER_01: And which is which is again, that's the evolution.
43:50
SPEAKER_01: It should be.
43:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
43:52
SPEAKER_01: Should be.
43:52
SPEAKER_01: How long has the 35 and 9 been in uh and it might be around?
43:56
SPEAKER_01: It might be 35 7 now.
43:57
SPEAKER_01: 357.
43:58
SPEAKER_01: It was 45.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna say it's probably been it's probably been uh when did they start?
44:05
SPEAKER_01: The 45.
44:07
SPEAKER_01: It's probably been six years, roughly.
44:09
SPEAKER_01: At the start of MLS?
44:11
SPEAKER_01: No, no, six next.
44:13
SPEAKER_01: A little bit after the start of MLS Next.
44:15
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
44:16
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't there initially.
44:16
SPEAKER_01: See, and it is one of the things that MLS Next has been good at because they do, you know, they look at the ML MLS ecosystem.
44:26
SPEAKER_00: Not just the MLS academies.
44:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and and and maybe sometimes they look at the MLS ecosystem specifically as it relates to the entire youth ecosystem, if that makes sense.
44:39
SPEAKER_01: Whereas sometimes the DA was great.
44:41
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the DA for me, the DA was the start of really professional player development in this country.
44:45
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
44:45
SPEAKER_01: But they also had to look a lot more broadly at times than the MLS does sometimes, if that makes sense.
44:51
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
44:52
SPEAKER_01: Um and MLS has to be careful of that too, because we our our ecosystem of MLS next now is very big.
45:01
SPEAKER_01: So we have to be careful that you know it doesn't appear as though MLS academies are being favored in some way.
45:10
SPEAKER_01: Because there is people say that.
45:11
SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's true, to be fair.
45:12
SPEAKER_01: I think it's I don't I don't think sometimes I think it's the opposite.
45:15
SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you look at the boards, and and they've been talking about that in that tent, right, all week, is that they're always figuring out okay, how many MLS academies are you know in the quarterfinals or into the semifinals?
45:32
SPEAKER_00: And now, and we we started off air talking about how you're playing up now.
45:37
SPEAKER_00: Can you talk about that a little bit?
45:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
45:39
SPEAKER_01: Uh at the at the 15 and up age groups, the MLS academies play against the non-MLS academies up up a year.
45:46
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
45:46
SPEAKER_01: In every age group.
45:47
SPEAKER_01: So our 15s are in the playoffs against the under 16s, 16s against 17s, 17s, well, 18s against 19s.
45:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:57
SPEAKER_01: So um so it's different.
46:00
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's different.
46:01
SPEAKER_01: It's it it's it's it I think there's positives and negatives in it.
46:06
SPEAKER_01: Um I think on a very surface level view, people can look at it and go, oh wow, all the non-LMLS academies are catching up to the MLS academies.
46:18
SPEAKER_01: If if they're not aware that they're playing up in age group.
46:21
SPEAKER_01: Right.
46:21
SPEAKER_01: So if you look all over Instagram, the posts on who's in playoffs and this and that, it never says 15s versus 16s, it just says under 16 bracket.
46:30
SPEAKER_01: So on the surface level, people look at it and go, Yeah, oh, what's happening in MLS academies?
46:34
SPEAKER_01: Like there won't be us exactly.
46:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there won't be.
46:37
SPEAKER_01: I mean, are there gonna be every year spend MLS champions in the age group, right?
46:40
SPEAKER_01: Is that the way it's gonna be this year?
46:43
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
46:43
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
46:44
SPEAKER_00: And and that's a problem in it in and of itself, and that's why I want to bring that up on air because people need to know that hey, oh FC Cincinnati lost to Varda.
46:58
SPEAKER_00: So okay, yeah, but they're playing mostly you like 14-year-olds against their 15s.
47:05
SPEAKER_01: All right, so when we played um Delco yesterday, yep, our ATs, Delko's legit.
47:12
SPEAKER_01: We uh we had um we started four of the 11 players were under 16s with 2010s, yep, they were mostly 2007s.
47:25
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
47:27
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
47:28
SPEAKER_01: It was good for us.
47:29
SPEAKER_01: It was uh like I said, it and despite players, yes, it forced it forced these young guys to really step up and and it was physical and it was it was was a great game.
47:40
SPEAKER_01: Um you know, knockwood, fortunately, we were able to to get through it, but um great for our players.
47:47
SPEAKER_01: So so I think there needs to be some context.
47:50
SPEAKER_01: No context is a major thing in everything.
47:53
SPEAKER_01: People people tend to look at things very surface, especially with social media and stuff, right?
47:58
SPEAKER_01: Um the context is very important.
48:00
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, when you look at the 15s and the and the 16s and the under-eighteens and the under-19s, you know, the context is important on what's going on here.
48:09
SPEAKER_01: Um and it's it's I don't think it's shared enough.
48:14
SPEAKER_01: I think there'll be a lot of kind of um reflection on how this was all managed this year, and and you know, there's good and bad in it.
48:28
SPEAKER_00: Where are you from originally?
48:29
SPEAKER_00: How did your son get to play um in Spain?
48:35
SPEAKER_00: Go into that.
48:36
SPEAKER_01: So I grew up in New York.
48:37
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
48:38
SPEAKER_01: I was uh you know, soccer player in New York, and um I I played professionally for about 13 years between and the old indoor league.
48:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:46
SPEAKER_01: Because the NASL folded.
48:48
SPEAKER_01: I'm 62.
48:49
SPEAKER_01: So the NASL folded and I ended up uh coming out of school, playing New York Express to start, you know, then ISL days, and then went into some of the other indoor leagues.
48:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, finished up in Chicago.
49:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, both my boys were in the Chicago Fire Academy.
49:04
SPEAKER_01: Um both, you know, solid, luckily in some ways, because it's not easy to be an academy director and having your kid, and uh there's no winning.
49:15
SPEAKER_01: I could tell you that.
49:16
SPEAKER_01: It was very difficult to my wife because friends become non-friends very quickly.
49:20
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
49:20
SPEAKER_01: Um, but uh we so my one son who ended up in in Spain um was playing in uh Disney at Disney with the uh the fire academy team playing a year up, okay, um, scouted by Liverpool.
49:35
SPEAKER_01: Liverpool wanted to bring him over.
49:37
SPEAKER_01: I was going through a transition, I was leaving Chicago and going to Portland.
49:40
SPEAKER_01: So I I had to put it on hold.
49:41
SPEAKER_01: I said, can't do it at that time.
49:43
SPEAKER_01: So when we got to Portland, Liverpool brought him over on trial.
49:46
SPEAKER_01: Um he was there for 10 days.
49:49
SPEAKER_01: Um they did not sign him, but while he was there, a Spanish agent saw him and said, Hey, we'd like to bring him over to Spain.
49:55
SPEAKER_01: And after he got that taste of Liverpool and being over there, he was like, I want to do this.
50:01
SPEAKER_01: He was 15.
50:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, so we went over to Spain, ended up trialing at a few different clubs, a couple different clubs made an offer, but Levante had um their residency program was right at the training center.
50:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it just it it felt a little I can't believe it.
50:16
SPEAKER_01: I I say this now.
50:17
SPEAKER_01: I did like no research, I did no background.
50:19
SPEAKER_01: It just felt a little bit safer.
50:21
SPEAKER_01: Um, so we ended up choosing Levante, and and at 15, I took him over there and dropped him off.
50:28
SPEAKER_01: He spoke no Spanish, and I flew back to Portland.
50:32
SPEAKER_01: Um, kind of crazy, to be fair.
50:34
SPEAKER_01: So he went through all that and uh it was very difficult at times for sure.
50:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, a lot of tears at times and uh struggles, and you know, thrown in a room with six Spanish guys laughing because he doesn't speak Spanish.
50:47
SPEAKER_01: Now is he fluent?
50:48
SPEAKER_01: Now he's fluent, yeah.
50:49
SPEAKER_01: Um so he ended up playing over there, signed his first deal after Dom.
50:56
SPEAKER_01: He ended up playing for CF Dom in Barcelona, which is one of the top three academies.
51:01
SPEAKER_01: It's Barcelona, Espanol.
51:03
SPEAKER_01: No, no, how did it start fixed?
51:07
SPEAKER_01: And Dom.
51:07
SPEAKER_01: He ended up graduating from Dom and went to uh a Division III club there in Spain called Santanderu, played there, um, and then into Miami called, came over to Miami, played with the second team, promoted to the first team, played with Messi for a couple years and into Miami.
51:23
SPEAKER_01: And one of the reasons he went to Barcelona was to be near Barcelona, so he got to play with his uh some of his idols.
51:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
51:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, so and then he's now he's in Holland.
51:31
SPEAKER_01: He went back to Holland.
51:33
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, so interesting.
51:35
SPEAKER_00: Wait, is he okay?
51:36
SPEAKER_00: Luis brought this up.
51:38
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it was you or somebody else.
51:42
SPEAKER_00: Is your son married to the granddaughter of no?
51:47
SPEAKER_00: He's dating.
51:48
SPEAKER_00: Dating.
51:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they're dating.
51:50
SPEAKER_00: Is that Todd Bean's daughter?
51:52
SPEAKER_00: No, no.
51:52
SPEAKER_00: Do you know who Todd?
51:53
SPEAKER_00: I know Todd, yeah, I know Todd from Tovo.
51:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I yeah, I want to.
51:58
SPEAKER_00: I want to talk to Todd someday.
51:59
SPEAKER_01: You should.
52:00
SPEAKER_01: He's he's got an interesting experience.
52:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
52:02
SPEAKER_01: Uh for sure.
52:03
SPEAKER_01: Um, no, he it was it was funny when he was in Barcelona Deny, Denai Cruyff.
52:09
SPEAKER_01: Um when he was in Barcelona, they had met, and then I don't know how long it was, they reconnected over at Zoom, and and her dad, Jordi, is the sporting director at IAX.
52:20
SPEAKER_01: And Loss is playing in Holland.
52:22
SPEAKER_01: So she was coming over to Afstabs and said, Hey, let's meet up.
52:25
SPEAKER_01: And and she's got she's a I I haven't met her only on phone at Zoom.
52:31
SPEAKER_01: My wife met her, and it's just she's just a lovely girl.
52:33
SPEAKER_01: So Loss is very lucky, and and Loss is a pretty good kid, so I think they're they're a pretty good uh, you know, I mean for now, who knows?
52:40
SPEAKER_01: That's crazy, you know, but pretty cool.
52:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, were you a first generation soccer player or a second?
52:46
SPEAKER_01: I I was a first generation player, player, but my dad was heavily involved in the game.
52:50
SPEAKER_01: My dad was um my dad was an athletic director, university athletic director, and uh it he was heavily involved with it.
52:58
SPEAKER_01: It brought helped to bring the cosmos to New York.
53:02
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I don't know if you remember the old Senior Bowl.
53:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:04
SPEAKER_01: He founded the Senior Bowl back in the day.
53:07
SPEAKER_01: And the NSCAA when it merged, he was president of NSCAA for a while.
53:11
SPEAKER_01: And so he's he was Who's your dad?
53:13
SPEAKER_01: His name was E.
53:14
SPEAKER_01: Wayne Sunderland, but Wayne Sunderland, he's one of the old guys in soccer in the US, him and Hank Steinretcher and that whole crew.
53:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, way back when.
53:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:23
SPEAKER_01: So so I had I had, you know, I was around it.
53:26
SPEAKER_01: He didn't play, coached, um, but I was around guys like, you know, I worked Walt Chizwich's camp up in New York when I was a kid.
53:35
SPEAKER_01: Camp All America.
53:36
SPEAKER_01: My dad was part of Camp All America in the early, early days, and Joe Magnik and I go back to being a little kid, Lenny Lusenko.
53:42
SPEAKER_01: Those were all my like that New York group was was I was a little kid growing up in that.
53:49
SPEAKER_00: Isn't it wild?
53:50
SPEAKER_00: I find it wild how big the soccer world is, but it's also small.
53:57
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
53:58
SPEAKER_00: It's like everybody knows everybody, or uh it's the what is it, the rule of seven.
54:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like it's smaller than that.
54:04
SPEAKER_00: It's like three.
54:05
SPEAKER_01: And and it's funny, there's like clans, you know.
54:08
SPEAKER_01: I I I kind of, you know, you're you're part of this clan, and you know, and and and it's um it's interesting.
54:15
SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, I think um it's it's culture, it grows culture, you know, which which we're working on growing in this country, aren't we?
54:24
SPEAKER_01: And you know, uh, and it's it's those those people that have been involved in the game for a long time.
54:30
SPEAKER_01: And I think we have some really good people in the United States now involved in the game.
54:34
SPEAKER_01: Uh whether it's coaches, whether it's administrators, organizers, leaders, there are some really good people in the United States now.
54:41
SPEAKER_01: And and uh what I'm gonna say is maybe controversial.
54:44
SPEAKER_01: It's time to let some of those people leave.
54:48
SPEAKER_01: I I I don't know that we always have to be looking outside.
54:53
SPEAKER_01: It's time to let some of those people there are some people that have a really good worldview on the game now, that have a really good world experience in the game now.
55:01
SPEAKER_01: And and it doesn't have to be a player, it can be, right?
55:05
SPEAKER_01: But but I think the US has people now that we need to start trusting with leadership.
55:12
SPEAKER_00: I agree with that a hundred percent.
55:15
SPEAKER_00: And I mean, all of my life I've dealt with, you know, being treated like I don't know as much as somebody else because I'm not from somewhere else.
55:28
SPEAKER_00: And that absolutely gets frustrating, but I am also ups not upset, but I am very frustrated when somebody that hasn't been here is brought here and oh, this is how we did it in name the name the country.
55:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is how we do it, and this is how we can do it here.
55:56
SPEAKER_00: And then they like peel back the layers and like, oh, this can't do it.
56:02
SPEAKER_01: This country shocks people.
56:04
SPEAKER_01: When when when you come from abroad to this country, and think about players, MLS players that come to this country.
56:11
SPEAKER_01: What are you shocked at?
56:12
SPEAKER_01: The the the scope of the country, the the challenge of flying from New York, that that's easy.
56:20
SPEAKER_01: That's I mean, that's nothing, right?
56:22
SPEAKER_01: But think about the youth landscape.
56:24
SPEAKER_01: You bring somebody, you just drop them in the youth landscape and say, lead us.
56:29
SPEAKER_01: You know, so so criticize me if I'm not trying to learn about other places in the world.
56:34
SPEAKER_01: Don't criticize me about what I know about our country, you know.
56:38
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
56:38
SPEAKER_01: Right.
56:39
SPEAKER_00: So I don't want to learn.
56:40
SPEAKER_00: That's a problem.
56:41
SPEAKER_00: So the Western Europe Flash, they're the girls, they're in the ECNL.
56:46
SPEAKER_00: They have a they have a team in their conference from Tennessee.
56:51
SPEAKER_00: That's an 11-hour drive.
56:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
56:53
SPEAKER_00: If your son got in the car and drove 11 hours from Holland, what country will he be in?
56:58
SPEAKER_00: Gosh.
56:59
SPEAKER_00: France?
57:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm not very good at geography.
57:01
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
57:01
SPEAKER_00: In Italy, there's Italy?
57:03
SPEAKER_00: Like something like that.
57:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
57:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
57:04
SPEAKER_00: Like you guys don't even realize that that you're comparing.
57:09
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
57:11
SPEAKER_00: What if what about the obsession with like, oh, Iceland?
57:15
SPEAKER_00: Iceland in the Euros.
57:16
SPEAKER_00: We gotta go to we gotta go to Iceland and see what they're doing.
57:18
SPEAKER_00: It's like, guys, you're gonna go and try to learn and get your notebooks out and realize they do rondos, they do small-sided, and they do this.
57:26
SPEAKER_00: And and you're not gonna, they're not reinventing the nails.
57:29
SPEAKER_00: It's just a captured talent pool.
57:31
SPEAKER_00: It's so easy to identify players when there's a hundred players to identify.
57:35
SPEAKER_01: So, so I spent a lot of time at Bill Bow.
57:37
SPEAKER_01: Okay, because Bill Bow was one of the best academies in the world.
57:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
57:40
SPEAKER_01: And they only use Bass players.
57:42
SPEAKER_00: Do you know Mark Zathy at all?
57:44
SPEAKER_00: Mark Zathy from Michigan.
57:45
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
57:45
SPEAKER_00: Because he was just talking about Bill Bow.
57:47
SPEAKER_01: Bill Bow's brilliant.
57:49
SPEAKER_01: They've done so many good things.
57:50
SPEAKER_01: They only use Bass players, right?
57:51
SPEAKER_01: So it's a small, small catchment.
57:53
SPEAKER_01: And they've never there's two clubs that have never been relegated.
57:56
SPEAKER_01: Three clubs that have never been relegated: Barcelona, Real Madrid, and Bill Bao.
58:00
SPEAKER_01: Everybody else has gone down.
58:01
SPEAKER_01: Bill Bow only uses Bass players.
58:03
SPEAKER_01: And I spent some time with uh Academy director there.
58:05
SPEAKER_01: This was one of my first trips.
58:07
SPEAKER_01: I've been there three or four times.
58:08
SPEAKER_01: One of my first trips.
58:09
SPEAKER_01: We're watching like U8s, tens play, and then we go over and watch the second tier.
58:14
SPEAKER_01: And I go, how many players do you think you get through from the U8s to the second tier?
58:20
SPEAKER_01: And he goes, 85%.
58:22
SPEAKER_01: What?
58:23
SPEAKER_01: I said, what?
58:23
SPEAKER_01: And he goes, player development is like an orange.
58:27
SPEAKER_01: And we squeeze it and we squeeze it and we squeeze it.
58:30
SPEAKER_01: Because they have to.
58:32
SPEAKER_01: It's crazy.
58:33
SPEAKER_01: It's crazy.
58:34
SPEAKER_01: So I look at that.
58:35
SPEAKER_01: When I look at like FC Cincinnati, I look at the work our Academy has done.
58:40
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, we've squeezed a lot out of our academy.
58:44
SPEAKER_01: In seven years, considering our market and our startup and the pandemic and all that stuff that hit us all at the same time.
58:50
SPEAKER_01: We've squeezed a lot out of it.
58:52
SPEAKER_01: We can squeeze more out of it.
58:53
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I thought it was a really interesting comment.
58:56
SPEAKER_01: And that has and that has to do with.
58:58
SPEAKER_01: So I I also asked him one player we were talking about, he said, Well, I'm telling you a story.
59:06
SPEAKER_01: I had a young kid come in here and he played for our academy and he was a leading scorer in Spain.
59:12
SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
59:12
SPEAKER_01: What happened to him?
59:13
SPEAKER_01: We sent him back to his club.
59:16
SPEAKER_01: Really?
59:17
SPEAKER_01: He goes, Yeah, because he was a physical specimen.
59:19
SPEAKER_01: He scored all his goals just because physically he could do it.
59:22
SPEAKER_01: We didn't think the long term was there, so we sent him back to his club.
59:25
SPEAKER_01: Because they have a good, such a good relationship with all those clubs, they monitored him.
59:29
SPEAKER_01: Guess what?
59:30
SPEAKER_01: He came back.
59:32
SPEAKER_01: So that's one of the kids that come through at eight and you see him on the second team as one of the 85%.
59:38
SPEAKER_01: So they can put him in different environments because they have such good relationships with that.
59:42
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
59:42
SPEAKER_01: Contrast that sometimes.
59:44
SPEAKER_01: It's getting much better.
59:45
SPEAKER_01: But contrast that sometimes to the early days, you know, a lot of youth clubs didn't really want to send their best players to MLS academies.
59:55
SPEAKER_01: Right.
59:55
SPEAKER_01: It's changed.
59:56
SPEAKER_01: It's changing.
59:57
SPEAKER_01: And I totally understand why.
59:58
SPEAKER_00: Of course, because still.
1:00:02
SPEAKER_01: Not criticizing it because it it's again, that's part of the evolution.
1:00:05
SPEAKER_01: That's changing.
1:00:06
SPEAKER_01: And I think MLS is giving back more too.
1:00:09
SPEAKER_00: Well, I just had uh the MLS next director from Midwest on, Midwest United, and they've put 12 kids into um MLS Academies.
1:00:21
SPEAKER_00: I think one is that you was with you.
1:00:23
SPEAKER_01: Michigan's such Michigan's such a fur of the wolves.
1:00:27
SPEAKER_01: You got the you got Vardar, you got Jags, you got Midwest.
1:00:30
SPEAKER_01: Think like again, think about what we're saying, the Detroit metro around that density and diversity.
1:00:35
SPEAKER_01: You have it.
1:00:36
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
1:00:36
SPEAKER_01: You have it there.
1:00:37
SPEAKER_01: And the history.
1:00:38
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:00:38
SPEAKER_01: Oh, deep history of putting guys full to the pros.
1:00:41
SPEAKER_01: I mean, just Vardar and Wolves, you know, Lars and you know.
1:00:45
SPEAKER_01: There's a legacy there for sure.
1:00:48
SPEAKER_01: All those guys.
1:00:49
SPEAKER_01: All those guys have done great work.
1:00:52
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't know.
1:00:54
SPEAKER_00: I love I love talking to all you guys because it's all it's the same concept of the conversation, but it's so much like different.
1:01:03
SPEAKER_00: It's all it's also like different nuance.
1:01:05
SPEAKER_00: We all bring different backgrounds, I suppose.
1:01:07
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
1:01:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:01:09
SPEAKER_00: And it it just shows me how healthy and where this is going.
1:01:13
SPEAKER_00: Like I can see where what the vision is.
1:01:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I think we all have I agree with you, but I also think we all have to recognize that we are gonna have failures.
1:01:25
SPEAKER_01: We are gonna have setbacks.
1:01:27
SPEAKER_01: And that's that's all part of it.
1:01:29
SPEAKER_01: And and if we we take those setbacks and we reflect on them, and if we grow from them, that's all part of it.
1:01:35
SPEAKER_01: Don't we think these other countries have their setbacks?
1:01:37
SPEAKER_01: Germany's setback, 2010.
1:01:39
SPEAKER_01: Italy.
1:01:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, look where Italy is right now, right?
1:01:42
SPEAKER_01: And and so so F we all go through it.
1:01:44
SPEAKER_01: You go through it as a country, you go through it as a club.
1:01:46
SPEAKER_01: It's all it's all part of it, you know.
1:01:49
SPEAKER_01: I I think I don't think you should shy away from that, because ultimately getting into that and getting into those mistakes and those failures is what ultimately really launches you.
1:02:03
SPEAKER_00: When when we don't qualify for a World Cup, right?
1:02:07
SPEAKER_00: And I always looked at it as like we should all take this personally.
1:02:12
SPEAKER_00: If you will work at any level of the youth game in in this country, then we should take it personally.
1:02:18
SPEAKER_00: If our women don't win, it's unnecessary, it's unrealistic standards, yeah, to a point.
1:02:25
SPEAKER_00: But if our women don't win, we should all take it personally.
1:02:29
SPEAKER_00: If our men don't qualify, if they don't get out of the group stage, we should take it personally.
1:02:34
SPEAKER_00: Do you ever feel that?
1:02:35
SPEAKER_00: Or am I just weird like that?
1:02:40
SPEAKER_00: I'm weird.
1:02:41
SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, no.
1:02:42
SPEAKER_01: I listen, I I I yeah, I'd be lying if I said I didn't take it personally.
1:02:47
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, over the years I've been doing this now, since day one in MLS.
1:02:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's a lot of things I take personally.
1:02:54
SPEAKER_01: I gotta go back and go, oh, I shouldn't take that personally.
1:02:56
SPEAKER_01: I try to only take I I ultimately I go back and I try to only take personal the things that I can really control, if that makes sense.
1:03:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:03:04
SPEAKER_01: Because like, do I take it personally when the academy guy who I think is really good doesn't get time with the first team.
1:03:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sometimes I do, but I can't.
1:03:11
SPEAKER_01: I I've been around long enough to know, first off, I don't know all the nuance and the variables of what's happening at the first team level that I should have any kind of cop.
1:03:20
SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you a story.
1:03:21
SPEAKER_01: Back when I was an assistant coach with the fire, the first team, yep, I used to do some of the media stuff and say, oh yeah, this guy's informed, this guy's gonna start, this guy's this and that.
1:03:29
SPEAKER_01: Because I knew I was there every day.
1:03:31
SPEAKER_01: I knew.
1:03:32
SPEAKER_01: Then when I went back to the academy and I'd have the same people reaching out, I'm like, I have no idea.
1:03:38
SPEAKER_01: I might be an educated person on this, but I don't know.
1:03:40
SPEAKER_01: I don't know what player's struggling with injury, I don't know what player isn't informed.
1:03:44
SPEAKER_01: I don't know who's had an argument with his girlfriend.
1:03:46
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
1:03:47
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:03:47
SPEAKER_01: I don't know that stuff.
1:03:48
SPEAKER_01: So I would be, I I know, you know, so I so I come back to that all the time and I go, well, don't take it personally.
1:03:54
SPEAKER_01: Just do what you can.
1:03:55
SPEAKER_01: You know, just just do what you can to to influence the situation, to improve the situation, to reflect on the situation, to change.
1:04:05
SPEAKER_01: That's how I look at it, even though I initially might be like pissed off.
1:04:10
SPEAKER_01: Um, but then I come back and I go, no, that's probably not right.
1:04:14
SPEAKER_00: Because that's how you want your players to approach reflection and whatnot as well.
1:04:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh for sure.
1:04:23
SPEAKER_01: But but I'm I'm going back to that leadership toolbox.
1:04:27
SPEAKER_01: Um I I I well, I'm a much different coach leader now than I was, you know, 15, 20 years ago.
1:04:36
SPEAKER_01: Um how so um my early my early days of of coaching, when I was like coaching every team at at the fire, um wanting to win is is not the problem.
1:04:51
SPEAKER_01: I everybody should want to win.
1:04:54
SPEAKER_01: Um but I was I was way more ego-driven, if that makes sense.
1:04:59
SPEAKER_01: I was coming as a former player, coming in and coaching.
1:05:02
SPEAKER_01: So when I lost, I took it personally.
1:05:04
SPEAKER_01: And I didn't look at it properly and and reflect on what I need to do better to improve my players, to help them and put them in a position where they can win.
1:05:14
SPEAKER_01: I was I was more they didn't get it done today, you know, and it was about me, and then I took it personally.
1:05:20
SPEAKER_01: So I was I was a lot more ego-driven.
1:05:22
SPEAKER_01: Now I've you know, I've learned I've broadened my leadership, which is coaching, I've broadened that toolbox in such a way now that I I feel like I'm pretty accomplished at when I need to push different buttons.
1:05:39
SPEAKER_01: I am a big there, there are coaches sitting and coaching the game.
1:05:46
SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's good.
1:05:46
SPEAKER_01: If that's your style and if that's the right time, but there's also a time for a coach to get up and drive a team.
1:05:51
SPEAKER_01: 100%.
1:05:52
SPEAKER_01: If I don't see those different aspects in a coach, that coach needs to develop them, and that's when I'll Talk to my coaches about that.
1:06:02
SPEAKER_01: I'll come over sometimes after the game and go, this is probably a good time.
1:06:05
SPEAKER_01: You might want to start to drive them a little bit.
1:06:06
SPEAKER_01: You can see they need it.
1:06:08
SPEAKER_01: So I I think it's really important that you connect the right tool with the right moment, right?
1:06:15
SPEAKER_01: Um and and that takes takes a long time.
1:06:17
SPEAKER_01: How do you build your staff?
1:06:19
SPEAKER_01: How do you find your coaches?
1:06:20
SPEAKER_01: How do you develop them?
1:06:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:06:22
SPEAKER_01: So first off, good people.
1:06:25
SPEAKER_01: You know, that's the first thing.
1:06:27
SPEAKER_01: I I I want to work with good people.
1:06:28
SPEAKER_01: So it's like conversations like we're having, right?
1:06:30
SPEAKER_01: I want to I want to work with good people.
1:06:31
SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't need Pep Guardiolas.
1:06:34
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
1:06:35
SPEAKER_01: If if he happens to be the next Pep Guardiola, fantastic.
1:06:39
SPEAKER_01: If he thinks he's the next Pep Guardiola, not so good.
1:06:42
SPEAKER_01: That's an issue.
1:06:42
SPEAKER_01: That's a problem.
1:06:43
SPEAKER_01: Um I I also want I love that.
1:06:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I also want people that will check and challenge me.
1:06:50
SPEAKER_01: Right?
1:06:51
SPEAKER_01: Now, what that means is I have to create an environment, I have to create a culture that allows for that, that encourages that.
1:06:59
SPEAKER_01: So psychological safety.
1:07:01
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:07:02
SPEAKER_01: I don't know how much you've spoken about psychological safety or looked at that.
1:07:07
SPEAKER_01: Not really in that term.
1:07:09
SPEAKER_01: So, okay, so uh I want to say back at back in maybe I could have the dates wrong, 20, 2012-ish.
1:07:16
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:07:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, Google, Google was looking at why some teams were super high performing versus teams that weren't super high performing, and why some of those super high performing teams weren't the best talents that they had.
1:07:30
SPEAKER_01: So it was actually the the lower or marginal talents within the Google organization that were on teams that actually outperformed the stars.
1:07:39
SPEAKER_01: So they did a big study into this.
1:07:41
SPEAKER_01: It was called Project Aristotle.
1:07:43
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:07:43
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:07:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, and the conclusion of that was psychological safety, an environment where people feel free to challenge each other, to talk openly, where they feel safety to fail.
1:07:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, that type of environment created high performers and created team performers and individual high performers.
1:08:01
SPEAKER_01: So that's what before I can really challenge my staff, and before it may feel comfortable enough to come back at me and and check me or question me on things, I have to make sure I've kind of developed this environment of psychological safety, which we have.
1:08:16
SPEAKER_01: So what I look for in in staff is diversity, cognitive diversity.
1:08:23
SPEAKER_01: I want people that think differently about the game.
1:08:27
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:08:27
SPEAKER_01: So this is why my my staff is always different.
1:08:31
SPEAKER_01: I got different backgrounds.
1:08:33
SPEAKER_01: Some have playing backgrounds, some don't.
1:08:35
SPEAKER_01: And I and I want I want people that are commit going to come in, that are learners and that are gonna jump into the environment and feel free enough to challenge each other, to check each other on whatever we do, um, without fear of you know retaliation or anything like that.
1:08:51
SPEAKER_01: So that's really important.
1:08:53
SPEAKER_00: Or undercutting or yeah.
1:08:55
SPEAKER_01: It's so first I have to model that 100%.
1:08:58
SPEAKER_01: I try to.
1:08:59
SPEAKER_01: So I'll give you an example.
1:09:00
SPEAKER_01: I I, as a coach, I would purposely, this is maybe a little conniving.
1:09:07
SPEAKER_01: I would I would purposely design activities within a session that I knew were gonna was gonna fail.
1:09:12
SPEAKER_01: Real.
1:09:13
SPEAKER_01: And I did that so that when it failed, I could tell all my players, guys, this sucks.
1:09:19
SPEAKER_01: I screwed this up, let's try something else.
1:09:21
SPEAKER_01: What does that do to that culture and environment?
1:09:25
SPEAKER_00: It gives them it gives them a sigh of relief.
1:09:30
SPEAKER_01: They know they could fail and it's okay.
1:09:33
SPEAKER_01: So I have all my I talk to all my coaches about that.
1:09:36
SPEAKER_01: And they're when you know, we develop training sessions together and stuff, and and I can't tell you how many times I will say, well, they'll develop a training session or an activity, and they'll go, what do you think?
1:09:46
SPEAKER_01: And I'll go, I don't know, give it a try.
1:09:48
SPEAKER_01: It's all an experiment.
1:09:49
SPEAKER_01: If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, fix it.
1:09:52
SPEAKER_01: So that's how we approach it.
1:09:54
SPEAKER_01: Like I said, within the guide, within we have guide race.
1:09:57
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:09:57
SPEAKER_01: But otherwise, I tell them it's it's an experiment, right?
1:10:00
SPEAKER_01: As long as you're not hurting anybody, you know.
1:10:04
SPEAKER_01: So that creates that creates a really great culture, I think.
1:10:07
SPEAKER_01: It grows a culture, it creates a culture where guys can grow, you know.
1:10:11
SPEAKER_01: But I've been for I've been really fortunate.
1:10:12
SPEAKER_01: I, you know, like the coaching tree has been pretty good.
1:10:15
SPEAKER_01: I got a lot of guys now working with national teams and stuff that have worked with me as assistant coaches or ticking teams in my academy.
1:10:20
SPEAKER_01: So I'm pretty pretty proud of that.
1:10:22
SPEAKER_00: I bring this up in almost every episode with somebody that's you know as high ranking as you.
1:10:30
SPEAKER_00: We can make such a larger impact as coaches if we help develop other coaches.
1:10:36
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
1:10:37
SPEAKER_00: Because they're gonna work with players that we don't get our hands on.
1:10:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, so for sure.
1:10:43
SPEAKER_01: And and that's just a huge aspect because they're that's the legacy, isn't it?
1:10:47
SPEAKER_01: And and and the players that you've coached that go on to coach, come on.
1:10:51
SPEAKER_01: That's that's where you're really the impact I've had is not how many players I've moved to the pros.
1:10:57
SPEAKER_01: The impact is the thousands of players I haven't moved to the pros.
1:11:02
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
1:11:03
SPEAKER_01: It's like, okay, it's great that a guy's come through and you know, I'm proud of them, that they're it's awesome.
1:11:09
SPEAKER_01: But it's the other kids that are out there, maybe some of them are coaching now, some call back and go, Hey, I took this team, can you give me some advice on this?
1:11:16
SPEAKER_01: You know?
1:11:17
SPEAKER_01: That's that's the impact.
1:11:19
SPEAKER_01: That's the impact, yeah.
1:11:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
1:11:21
SPEAKER_01: I I just have it's like winning.
1:11:24
SPEAKER_01: It's like winning.
1:11:25
SPEAKER_01: Winning is kind of like, yeah, it's great to win.
1:11:28
SPEAKER_01: But as a coach, I hate to lose.
1:11:30
SPEAKER_01: You know, I almost take winning like, okay, we won.
1:11:33
SPEAKER_01: You know, but the the losing is what drives you because that's that's what gives you the most information.
1:11:37
SPEAKER_01: That's what gives you the most opportunity to learn.
1:11:39
SPEAKER_01: You know, now, of course, I can say that because I'm a developer.
1:11:43
SPEAKER_01: You know, if I'm if I'm a in the French, I have a saying, there are player developers, there are player users.
1:11:50
SPEAKER_01: Oh.
1:11:51
SPEAKER_01: And this is not derogatory.
1:11:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, first team coaches are player users, right?
1:11:56
SPEAKER_01: They pick, they use 11 players to win the game.
1:11:58
SPEAKER_01: They pick the 11 players, plus the subs, whatever, that are gonna win the game.
1:12:02
SPEAKER_01: Player developers are different, right?
1:12:05
SPEAKER_01: So when I put my player developer hat on, I look at a loss and I go, there's a lot of information in that loss, right?
1:12:11
SPEAKER_01: And a win, okay, a win is good.
1:12:13
SPEAKER_01: That's good to win.
1:12:15
SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
1:12:16
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
1:12:18
SPEAKER_00: I I made when I first started this social media journey years ago, basically I I had my technical training company, and then I kids would come up to me and and tell me a story, like something that went on at their club, or I would notice a mistake over and over and over again.
1:12:37
SPEAKER_00: So then I I'd go to my own like uh sign-in sheet and I would write these little notes, and then I would make a video on that topic.
1:12:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like if somebody was really struggling with uh the inside of their right versus the inside of their weak foot.
1:12:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:12:52
SPEAKER_00: What okay, if you want to be completely two-footed, every surface needs to be the same, right?
1:12:58
SPEAKER_00: If you want to be completely completely it's mechanical, you need to be able to manipulate it.
1:13:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so one day I said we shouldn't be called coaches, we should be called developers.
1:13:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we should be called well teachers for sure, but developers.
1:13:14
SPEAKER_00: If we if we were called developers, we would look at the game and what we're doing so much differently.
1:13:21
SPEAKER_00: Now, that doesn't mean winning over development or development over winning or anything.
1:13:26
SPEAKER_00: It does for sure.
1:13:27
SPEAKER_00: And I've talked about it earlier today about like we need to learn how to win, we need to learn how to lose.
1:13:32
SPEAKER_00: Winning is a skill, I don't care, and that's part of development.
1:13:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, also learning from from your losses so that you don't do that again.
1:13:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and there's nothing wrong with that.
1:13:44
SPEAKER_00: But developers, and I love that there's there's player users and there's player developers, yeah.
1:13:51
SPEAKER_01: 100% and and and there's and there's there's times that you it's so refreshing.
1:13:56
SPEAKER_01: There's times that you toggle between those, though.
1:13:58
SPEAKER_01: Because because remember I said it's not derogatory, it's just it's not kind of factual.
1:14:03
SPEAKER_01: Like there's times you toggle between it.
1:14:04
SPEAKER_01: Well, that was in Chicago.
1:14:05
SPEAKER_01: We we the way I managed the academy there was regular season, I really didn't care about wins and losses.
1:14:11
SPEAKER_01: Yes, winning was important and we won a lot.
1:14:13
SPEAKER_01: I was all good.
1:14:14
SPEAKER_01: But then when we got to the playoffs, it's about winning.
1:14:18
SPEAKER_01: So we we uh we approached the games completely different in a lot of ways, because I because I wanted I wanted it to be about winning, but I wanted it to be I wanted it to be um player development based, if that makes sense.
1:14:34
SPEAKER_01: So ultimately, everything I tried to do in Chicago, and it was because I was there a long time.
1:14:40
SPEAKER_01: Are we getting to that place in Cincinnati?
1:14:42
SPEAKER_01: Maybe we're getting there.
1:14:43
SPEAKER_01: I think we're we're we're we're close to where it's like this sustainable pipeline of talent.
1:14:47
SPEAKER_01: I think that's coming.
1:14:48
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I got there in Chicago, right?
1:14:50
SPEAKER_01: And I got to the point where the teams were autonomous.
1:14:53
SPEAKER_01: So, what what that means?
1:14:55
SPEAKER_01: We got to the point with our training, the way we trained, developed autonomous players.
1:14:59
SPEAKER_01: So when we got to the playoffs, this is how I managed the playoffs, it was about winning.
1:15:04
SPEAKER_01: So I would give to teams kind of a portfolio, a dossier, on our opponents.
1:15:10
SPEAKER_01: And I would go pretty deep because I of course was stupid.
1:15:14
SPEAKER_01: But but I would go deep as deep as saying, okay, this coach on the sideline is if things aren't going his way, he's gonna be screaming, that's gonna be his demeanor.
1:15:22
SPEAKER_01: So how do we use that ball of law?
1:15:23
SPEAKER_01: So I put I put this dossier together, I give it to the team, and they'd come back and say how they wanted to play.
1:15:30
SPEAKER_01: This is how we did it.
1:15:31
SPEAKER_01: And my coaching staff, we were all instructed if they came back and they gave us a way they wanted to play, and it was never no, I don't like that.
1:15:42
SPEAKER_01: It was always and if this doesn't work, they'd have to have an answer.
1:15:47
SPEAKER_01: So that was how we bring it out of them.
1:15:48
SPEAKER_01: So this is why, like problem solving, problem solving, autonomy.
1:15:52
SPEAKER_01: This so so if you go back to Steve Kerr, yeah.
1:15:55
SPEAKER_01: Do you remember when Steve Kerr was sick and he and he didn't coach the team, he gave the team to the players?
1:16:00
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:16:00
SPEAKER_01: Do you remember that?
1:16:00
SPEAKER_01: What did the media do?
1:16:02
SPEAKER_01: Oh, they ripped them, ripped them.
1:16:03
SPEAKER_01: There's no reason to have a coach.
1:16:05
SPEAKER_01: You know what?
1:16:05
SPEAKER_01: That was the highest level of coaching.
1:16:08
SPEAKER_01: The fact that he was able to give his team to he he gave it, the team was autonomous, and he had done such a good job of preparing them, but they were autonomous.
1:16:17
SPEAKER_01: He was he felt comfortable, comfortable enough to give them the team.
1:16:20
SPEAKER_01: That was the highest level of coaching, people were ripping them.
1:16:22
SPEAKER_00: Back when I back when I was still coaching teams, I gave a coach's award, but I base it off of Ryan Giggs.
1:16:28
SPEAKER_00: Do you remember when they fired David Moyes?
1:16:31
SPEAKER_00: And instead of promoting an assistant, they gave it to Ryan Giggs.
1:16:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's like that.
1:16:38
SPEAKER_00: If I get a red card, if I'm sick that day, if I uh if I have to go out of town, somebody on the team takes over.
1:16:44
SPEAKER_00: Who on this team is the coach on the field?
1:16:46
SPEAKER_00: Which is gonna take this over for sure.
1:16:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's uh it's when when you get to that point where it's autonomous, I guess it's nothing.
1:16:54
SPEAKER_01: I just sit back and enjoy the game.
1:16:55
SPEAKER_01: It was great.
1:16:56
SPEAKER_01: Well, we got to that point in Chicago, it was awesome.
1:16:58
SPEAKER_01: It was awesome.
1:17:00
SPEAKER_00: You coached the youth before you got to the first team.
1:17:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was with the first team for about a year and a half, two years, maybe.
1:17:06
SPEAKER_00: And just because of like your track record, and like how did you get into that?
1:17:11
SPEAKER_00: And does that help you today being an academy director?
1:17:16
SPEAKER_00: Because you've been there, you've seen the first team.
1:17:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I know what I want at that level.
1:17:23
SPEAKER_00: And yes, and you peel uh you squeeze that orange, yeah, for sure.
1:17:26
SPEAKER_01: It taught me taught me things I want to do, things I don't want to do.
1:17:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, it was a really interesting time because I was still doing the academy while I was doing the first day.
1:17:34
SPEAKER_01: So I was, I mean, I was getting up.
1:17:36
SPEAKER_01: I at that time I lived way out in the Western Burbs, driving to the stadium.
1:17:40
SPEAKER_01: I'd get there about seven thirty.
1:17:41
SPEAKER_01: What year, what year around?
1:17:44
SPEAKER_01: Nine, ten, eleven, and around there.
1:17:45
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
1:17:46
SPEAKER_01: Um, I drive, I drive in, get to the stadium at seven, help put the training clan together, go out to the field, lay out the field, train the first team, noon come in, do what I had to do, clipping for the first team, blah, blah, blah.
1:17:58
SPEAKER_01: All the academy kids start coming in around 3, 3:30.
1:18:01
SPEAKER_01: Have them.
1:18:02
SPEAKER_01: We had one field in Chicago.
1:18:04
SPEAKER_01: We were the first MLS Academy.
1:18:06
SPEAKER_01: We went down to 10.
1:18:08
SPEAKER_01: No people, nobody has an L.
1:18:10
SPEAKER_01: When I had the Academy of Chicago, we were.
1:18:11
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:18:11
SPEAKER_00: Everybody starts at 50.
1:18:13
SPEAKER_01: We went down to under 10.
1:18:14
SPEAKER_01: 13, maybe 15.
1:18:14
SPEAKER_01: Under 10.
1:18:15
SPEAKER_01: What is Cincinnati?
1:18:16
SPEAKER_01: 13 or 15?
1:18:18
SPEAKER_01: 13.
1:18:18
SPEAKER_01: We went down to 10.
1:18:19
SPEAKER_01: And the reason we went down to 10, because I I was like, the the Chicago marketplace was doggy dog.
1:18:26
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, you know what?
1:18:27
SPEAKER_01: Let's find the best players we can find at 10.
1:18:29
SPEAKER_01: And just squeeze the orange.
1:18:30
SPEAKER_01: And that's what we did.
1:18:31
SPEAKER_01: And that's but that's Brian Gutierrez.
1:18:33
SPEAKER_01: That's Georgie Mahalovich.
1:18:35
SPEAKER_01: Those guys all came through that from you know, young all the way through.
1:18:39
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:18:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, so I was like, and then I do the academy, and I get home about 10 o'clock at night and start it up the next morning.
1:18:45
SPEAKER_01: You know, it was, it was, but it was great because you know what it taught me?
1:18:49
SPEAKER_01: It taught me to really be aware of who I'm coaching.
1:18:52
SPEAKER_01: Because it's different.
1:18:54
SPEAKER_01: I had to learn from the academy.
1:18:56
SPEAKER_01: You know, one day I might be coaching the 14s, and then I have my next sessions with the 16s.
1:19:00
SPEAKER_01: And I had to coach each of them differently.
1:19:02
SPEAKER_01: Even if I was doing similar things on the field, I had to coach each of them different and then go into the first team.
1:19:07
SPEAKER_01: It taught me a lot.
1:19:08
SPEAKER_01: Taught me a lot.
1:19:10
SPEAKER_01: You know, because you cannot say the same thing to first teamers that you say to academy kids.
1:19:16
SPEAKER_01: So it was it was a great experience for me.
1:19:18
SPEAKER_00: And it just gives you uh a perspective of like we were all kids once, you know, and it's like, how do I deal with different personalities?
1:19:27
SPEAKER_00: And like a personality of a 10-year-old and a personality of a 14-year-old is completely different, yeah.
1:19:33
SPEAKER_00: But and then I'm sure that you've seen different situations with certain players, and you're like, Oh, I remember this from when I had this player.
1:19:40
SPEAKER_01: And for sure, for sure.
1:19:42
SPEAKER_01: Like, like now you fall back to the player and you go, Oh, this scene was like this guy.
1:19:45
SPEAKER_01: I remember this guy was, you know, and and and the the the the issue you got to be careful of just a bias.
1:19:52
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
1:19:52
SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes that can influence your opinion.
1:19:54
SPEAKER_01: So you and and each player is so unique, and the variables around each player are so unique.
1:20:03
SPEAKER_01: It's it's crazy.
1:20:05
SPEAKER_01: I want to go back to psychological safety if I can for a second.
1:20:08
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:20:08
SPEAKER_01: So remember the the clip that was all over social media, Van Piercy, talking about his son.
1:20:14
SPEAKER_01: He called him a loser.
1:20:16
SPEAKER_01: He got back in the car and it was blowing up all over, right?
1:20:19
SPEAKER_01: So his son was was at Feyenoord, and he had he was four under 14 at the time.
1:20:24
SPEAKER_01: And he had a you know, tough game.
1:20:26
SPEAKER_01: Gets in the car, and they're talking, and the dad's like, you know what?
1:20:30
SPEAKER_01: You sound like a loser.
1:20:33
SPEAKER_01: And he was calling his son a loser.
1:20:34
SPEAKER_01: That's what a loser sounds like, blah, blah, blah.
1:20:36
SPEAKER_01: I remember all over social media, everybody was going, oh, that's great.
1:20:40
SPEAKER_01: Tough, tough uh, that's the way we need to talk to players, blah, blah, blah.
1:20:44
SPEAKER_01: Go back to context.
1:20:45
SPEAKER_01: What people didn't realize, didn't think about, and it put it in the context of a father who developed that care and that relationship over 14 years, psychological safety, that he could talk to that player that way.
1:20:59
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:20:59
SPEAKER_01: The son.
1:21:00
SPEAKER_01: And it didn't.
1:21:00
SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean you as a coach can go and say that.
1:21:03
SPEAKER_01: No.
1:21:03
SPEAKER_01: So so I've done, I did a uh a thing with my staff.
1:21:08
SPEAKER_01: I played that video and I asked them to reflect on it, talk about it.
1:21:12
SPEAKER_01: And then we talked about psychological safety.
1:21:14
SPEAKER_01: And I said, now look at it and think about it.
1:21:17
SPEAKER_01: And now tell me if you think you can walk into the first team locker room and talk that way to the first team players after a game.
1:21:25
SPEAKER_01: No chance.
1:21:26
SPEAKER_01: Could you could you have a rel could you have a conversation with a player on your academy like Van Piercy had with his son before developing the relationship and the psychological safety that's needed?
1:21:37
SPEAKER_01: No chance.
1:21:37
SPEAKER_01: You lose the player right away.
1:21:39
SPEAKER_01: So it's really important that when we talk about context, context to everything is so important.
1:21:46
SPEAKER_01: And relationships.
1:21:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:21:48
SPEAKER_01: That video blew up, and that was one of the things I was typing.
1:21:52
SPEAKER_01: I can't tell you how much I was typing.
1:21:54
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I don't want to open this candle or something, erase it, you know.
1:21:58
SPEAKER_01: I can't do that in my position or erase it.
1:22:01
SPEAKER_00: But it was nuts.
1:22:03
SPEAKER_00: Almost every single episode that I've done in the last few months, it's all about relationships, and it's all about like just building and and being able to talk to your players.
1:22:14
SPEAKER_00: And it's ability to know your players, but it's also knowing your staff.
1:22:19
SPEAKER_00: How many times have you heard the phrase, oh, it's just a collection of teams with the same uniform all?
1:22:27
SPEAKER_00: That's not really a club.
1:22:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:22:29
SPEAKER_01: And and and it's yeah.
1:22:33
SPEAKER_01: Building, building, building that you know, Barcelona always talks about the collective, building the collective.
1:22:41
SPEAKER_01: In Spain, you hear a lot about the collective, right?
1:22:44
SPEAKER_01: It's very important everything to do in their in their coaching because of the way they they like to play.
1:22:48
SPEAKER_01: It's a collective.
1:22:49
SPEAKER_01: So how do you build that collective?
1:22:51
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's so it's what we do is so hard because everybody's you as a person is such a complex organism, you know, and that complexity is multiplied by 18 players on a team multiplied by 36 parents, right?
1:23:13
SPEAKER_01: Multiply the complexity is incredible.
1:23:16
SPEAKER_01: So, like anybody that can tell you this guy, this guy's gonna be a pro.
1:23:22
SPEAKER_00: You don't know.
1:23:24
SPEAKER_01: No.
1:23:26
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
1:23:27
SPEAKER_01: Because there are so many variables.
1:23:28
SPEAKER_01: I can tell you if he's close, it's getting close, he's getting close.
1:23:32
SPEAKER_01: He has there are some things that lead me to believe characteristics.
1:23:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
1:23:39
SPEAKER_01: But saying Oh, he's gonna be a pro.
1:23:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, at 13 or whatever the case may be, you know, it's it's it's and then again, like so, so I'll give another example.
1:23:49
SPEAKER_01: I won't use I won't use any names, but uh under when I was coaching the under-16 national team, you know, what I would do before any camp and the players that were coming to the camps, I'd call all their coaches at their at their clubs.
1:24:01
SPEAKER_01: Tell me about them, you know, where's he at?
1:24:02
SPEAKER_01: How is he playing?
1:24:03
SPEAKER_01: What's going on, blah, blah, blah.
1:24:05
SPEAKER_01: And then there was one player at an MLS Academy.
1:24:09
SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, he's a handful, man.
1:24:12
SPEAKER_01: He just needs so much love.
1:24:13
SPEAKER_01: We're not very high on him, blah, blah, blah.
1:24:16
SPEAKER_01: So I made notes and I said, when I get this kid in camp, I am gonna smother him with love.
1:24:26
SPEAKER_01: Just like everything was gonna be positive, and everything was gonna be you're great, you know, just smother him with love, right?
1:24:33
SPEAKER_01: Because the national teams are so different.
1:24:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's a short time frame, and it's just it's performance, right?
1:24:39
SPEAKER_02: Um took off.
1:24:42
SPEAKER_01: Bingo.
1:24:43
SPEAKER_01: Never turned back, took off.
1:24:44
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he's he's uh went to Europe for a while, he's back in MS.
1:24:48
SPEAKER_01: Never never turned back.
1:24:50
SPEAKER_01: Now, I don't know how much love they give him now.
1:24:53
SPEAKER_01: He's more mature now, I I don't know, but that's all it was with him.
1:24:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he needs so much love.
1:24:58
SPEAKER_01: Okay, then give him love.
1:25:00
SPEAKER_01: And he just went.
1:25:01
SPEAKER_00: Why is that so hard for co some coaches?
1:25:06
SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of coaches don't build these relationships.
1:25:08
SPEAKER_01: He goes, egoes, ego's definitely an issue.
1:25:14
SPEAKER_01: You are ego's an issue across the board.
1:25:19
SPEAKER_01: Don't forget, you're dealing, you know, uh a lot of former pro a lot of former pros and are uh that egos are strong.
1:25:26
SPEAKER_01: Um and and ego's not bad.
1:25:29
SPEAKER_01: I'm not bashing ego, ego certainly has a place.
1:25:32
SPEAKER_01: Um I talked to all my staff over the years about having a quiet ego.
1:25:36
SPEAKER_01: Ego's absolutely a motivator.
1:25:38
SPEAKER_01: Uh ego can help, you know, drive ambition.
1:25:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, so there's a place for ego.
1:25:44
SPEAKER_01: You can't get rid of ego, but I I think you have to have a quiet ego, and you have to, with self-awareness, the self-reflection is critical, really critical.
1:25:52
SPEAKER_00: Self-awareness is something that we talk about all the time, too.
1:25:55
SPEAKER_00: It's just like that takes years, decades for self-awareness.
1:25:59
SPEAKER_01: And willingness, willingness to learn, willingness to say, oh, I was a piece of shit.
1:26:05
SPEAKER_01: You know, there were definitely times I look back at some of the things I've said to players, I'm like, oh man, what was I a piece of shit?
1:26:12
SPEAKER_01: What what an ass I was.
1:26:15
SPEAKER_00: Man.
1:26:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:26:17
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for doing this.
1:26:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's great to meet you.
1:26:20
SPEAKER_00: My pleasure.
1:26:20
SPEAKER_00: Great meeting you back.
1:26:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is fun.
1:26:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, it's just conversation.
1:26:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's just like this is this is super and just and hopefully like where this is going and where it's I think a couple weeks ago, I was I talked to Western Michigan's men's coach.
1:26:43
SPEAKER_00: And we talked about just how healthy Michigan soccer is right now.
1:26:47
SPEAKER_00: I'm starting to turn my thought process of like soccer is healthier than it looks from the uh from the outside, and maybe the haters, maybe the social media clicks, and the the 20% are always gonna be louder than the 80%.
1:27:04
SPEAKER_01: That's well said.
1:27:07
SPEAKER_01: Not that the 28% should be quiet, disregarded or quiet.
1:27:12
SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, there's there's there's always legitimacy that you can you can kind of siphon out or stuff, but they're always gonna be louder than the 80% that everything's great.
1:27:22
unknown: Yeah.
1:27:23
SPEAKER_01: That's well said.
1:27:24
unknown: Yeah.
1:27:25
SPEAKER_00: And we'll end it there.
1:27:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:27:27
SPEAKER_01: Awesome, man.
1:27:27
SPEAKER_01: Uh awesome.
1:27:28
SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
1:27:29
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
1:27:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, my pleasure.
1:27:31
SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
1:27:32
SPEAKER_00: I hate soccer.
1:27:34
SPEAKER_00: This episode is brought to you by the North American Soccer Expo.
1:27:38
SPEAKER_00: If you remember last year when I had Alexi Lawless on, so many of you were blown away and kept on messaging me.
1:27:45
SPEAKER_00: Like, how did you get Alexi Lawless to talk to you?
1:27:48
SPEAKER_00: And to be honest with you, it was the North American Soccer Expo.
1:27:52
SPEAKER_00: The expo has workshops and seminars and field presentations from top coaches and industry experts.
1:28:00
SPEAKER_00: I will be there this year.
1:28:02
SPEAKER_00: 100%.
1:28:03
SPEAKER_00: I'll be set up on podcast row.
1:28:05
SPEAKER_00: In addition to the podcasts that I'm going to be filming there, I'm also going to have an open hour where any coach at the expo or anybody at the expo can come sit down at the chair and have a one on one 15 minute chat with me.
1:28:20
SPEAKER_00: And you guys can just come and chat and talk about whatever you want.
1:28:24
SPEAKER_00: North American Soccer Expo, July 30th to August 1st, Novi, Michigan.
1:28:29
SPEAKER_00: I'll see you there.