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Why Do Certain People Get Under Your Skin? (What Your Reactions Reveal About You) · Radiant Voices

• speaker-0: So all I really need to do is stay grounded in being bigger than what's bugging me. So I'm not fused with it, identified with it, drowning in it. And that's the practice. Focusing is a way of getting connected to what your body's trying to communicate to you. So it brings the body in as a source of wisdom. speaker-1: Hello and welcome everyone. I'm so excited to be sitting with Catherine Sellery. Her work is definitely in my area of interest and her qualifications fascinate me. And I think we have so much to talk about today. She's a leadership communication expert and a conflict resolution specialist, but she's also the founder of the Conscious Parenting Revolution, which Sounds absolutely fascinating and I can't wait to explore all of this with her. She's also a mediator and really a communication expert with a a bunch of areas that are I think are really, really powerful and we'll we'll have a great convo about today. Yeah, so one of the things that really fascinated me about Catherine is first of all the breadth of her work and her experience, but also she's got some wonderful trainings and spent time around some of the luminaries in some important areas. She's got trainings in nonviolent communication and conflict resolution. And from a healing point of view, she's worked with matrix reimprinting, which is a technique that I think is very fascinating. EFT tapping, which I work with as well, breath work, meditation via the art of living. So she's got the kind of a breadth of stuff from inner work to really outer communication skills. I want to ask you really just Clear question right now, which is you're staring at a stranger on an L C D screen or whatever it is. We've never met before. This is going on the internet. How are you feeling actually right now? Like how are you actually doing it? What's going on inside you? speaker-0: Great. I'm excited to be here. I like what I'm seeing. just you know, sometimes we pick up energy from people and I'm like, I'm gonna really like him. so I have my own experience of just being here. And and then when I heard you're in South Africa, that's one of the places where when we lived in Hong Kong, our neighbor was from South Africa. My husband's previous partner was South African. We've danced around a lot of South African people in our lives, but I've never gotten to go there. So it's on my bucket list. I'm like Fine. speaker-1: Very beautiful. speaker-0: I get to go visit Jeremy in South Africa. speaker-1: Great. Yeah, it's it's pretty beautiful out here. And it it's really beautiful that you're sitting in in a I'm gonna say a comfortable place in your nervous system. Is there any activation or is it just ac excitement? speaker-0: Just excitement. Yeah. I do a lot of podcasts, obviously. This is my hood. So I'm always really interested when I get on. I've never really quite sure exactly where the person I'm speaking to is. And then when I find out it's one of the sweet spots that I'm curious about and want to go to, I'm like, that's really cool. Yeah. Tell me more. speaker-1: Yes, okay, so so that's so interesting. Like you said, being on a podcast, appearing on the on a stage or on the internet is your hood. It's a it's it's a place of comfort. Was it always like that? Have you always just had the gift of the gab and and been a powerful communicator? speaker-0: Yeah, that's so funny. In third grade, I think, from about third grade on, maybe earlier. I'm not really sure. I can just remember the family stories, you know, on the report card it would say talk too much in class. So I was definitely the one who was chatting in the back. I was usually in the back of the room with somebody. Somebody wanted to talk about something, and I was always game. So yeah, no, I think I've always been pretty comfortable on the center of the stage so that That's the Leo trait. speaker-1: Right. Amazing. Yeah, that's so that's a gift. You know, I I I work with a lot of anxious communicators, people whose nervous systems get super triggered when they're being seen and heard. But of course, you are one of those unicorns that just emerged out of the you know, out of the nest and you just you are ready to speak to the world. And that's obviously somehow also driven you into communication as as a vocation and as a gift to the world. What was it that then led you into voice work, communication and conflict and let me add that on conscious parenting? speaker-0: guess you could say I had a I had a stage mother you've probably heard that that Ethel Merman sing out Louise sing out Louise Ethel Merman's mother from the side of the stage and you know this was definitely part of the family structure so everybody was pretty I did yeah various others in the family who also took more to the center of the stage. And it was a it was a normal place to be in our family system. So it was a normal place. Yeah. It was a place that we kind of gravitated toward. And I do think that astrology has a little something to do with it. speaker-1: Right, gotcha. speaker-0: Maybe karma. Yeah. speaker-1: And so then what led to you ending up learning some really fascinating healing modalities and ending up at art of living? Why speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: become a healer? speaker-0: Right. I don't know if you have a choice. so it's not really I don't really think it's about choice. I think it may be more about tuning in to where you belong. I mean, I'd like to say we belong in a lot of places and that the sense of belongingness can be cultivated in most rooms. I'd love to think that. It sure would be helpful if we could make ourselves feel like we belonged in any room, and have the ability to be in any room and sense that connection would give us opportunities for more conflict resolution. I I hope that I get better at it. you know, I'm going to take a side road here. I just remember Brene Brown talking about the church she goes to in Texas, where she says, you know, these aren't people I would normally be around. But I go to that church for that reason. Because I want to go break bread with people that I wouldn't normally be around. And find community and connection there. And that stuck with me. Yeah, I think that's so important. but the reason for you know being driven to those rooms and those modalities and those places is a lot about just wanting to explore. I think that pain drove a lot of my decisions and just looking for what would be a solution. To the inner work. And I just I think we magnetically get drawn to certain people, certain places, certain modalities. That's why I was like, I don't know if you have a choice. It's like you're just there's this magnetic force, and you end up in that room, and you think, huh, how did I end up at this room? the art of living was really a good story. I have been on a spiritual path for a long, long, long, long time. It happened in my twenties. I know when it happened, where it happened. and many decades later, I was in, we lived in Hong Kong for 35 years and I was back home with a friend and she said, you know, I want to go on a healing retreat. Will you go with me? And we ended up having a conversation back and forth. Do we go to Shivisham in Thailand? Do we go to the farm in the Philippines? And we just couldn't figure out which one. And I just kept being really drawn to the Philippines. So we ended up at the farm and it's a healing resort where you do a lot of different treatments and things like that. And I had finished a treatment and I was in their little clinic and I was sitting next to an Indian man and I'd just been in India for a pilgrimage to Ramana Maharshi's ashram. And I remember saying, hey, I, you know, where are you from in India? You know, I was just in your country. I was on this pilgrimage. And he said to me, You have to come to my villa tonight. I'm here with Rabbi Sri Shri Brabhi Shankar. And come to our villa, we'll have a meditation tonight. And I was like, Great, I'd love to do that. Can I bring my friend that I came with and I brought her along? And for those who don't know, Gurudev Sri Sri Brabhi Shankar, he's probably the preeminent meditation teacher in the world, as well as, you know, a man of peace. He's the Gandhi of his times. And Time magazine calls him the most fifth most powerful person in India. And I ended up just that guy I sat next to, my friend, and a couple of people that were staying with Guru Dev. And that's how I ended up touching into the art of living. Like again, you know, I just ended up in a room. It turns out ending up in that room is about as rare as it comes. Like people stand in lines for years to get in that room. And I just there I was at that resort, at that knowing I needed to be there, but that's all I knew. You know, you only get so much of the picture. speaker-1: I love this. So this is juicy. I've I've got things that I've listed that we might speak about, but I feel I'm feeling this tug to go on a side quest. now that you're starting to talk about this stuff and dig in a little bit. Just before we go side questing, you know, part of my my asking this was because most people who enter healing professions do so because they need to heal. And it just it I yeah, it just something had to be there. And you said it so beautifully, your own pain led you to become a healer. And I love this old phrase that when I began my journey with this, someone said to me, It was a kind of a a a gnarled teacher said to me, As the wound, so is the gift. And where our greatest pains or hurts lie, generally they drive us towards our gifts. And I always like to say, especially to the audience that watch this, who are really interested in communication and liberating their voice and becoming their full selves and being able to communicate powerfully, no matter the environment. If that is a wound, it's also potentially a source of enormous power if one just goes through and into this particular trigger or block or source of trauma. Side questing just a little bit. That's really interesting that you went to Romano Maharshi's place. That's already pretty esoteric consciousness and awareness stuff. How much is consciousness a thing for you? And and where does that fit into you, your experience of things? And and how does it how does it inform what you do? speaker-0: It yeah, I mean, first of all, you know who Ramana is. And I'm like, wow, that's great. I mean, because it is a little bit esoteric. So the Advaita Vedanta branch of the Hindu religion was kind of like what he spoke to, and it spoke to me. Again, you know, back to the choosing thing. It always kind of cracks me up because we think we have choice. And I don't know. I'm not really sure what we choose other than maybe this incarnation. speaker-1: Where does the consciousness and awareness work bring you now? Like in other words, what how does it inform your work or how you interact with your world? How would you how would you bring how can we bring that down? just for folks to summarize what it means to you and your relationship with being yourself in the world? speaker-0: Mm-hmm. So I I I have a conscious parenting revolution and that's a I weekly, weekly, weekly sort of like the bass drum. I have coaching calls with groups of people and it's around my training, which is all about being curious about why you're doing what you're doing in this context with your kids, with your family, and how you've chosen to go about raising this human being, and what is informing your perspective of addressing behaviors that you think are problematic, that you would like to see shift, how you see the behavior, what you tell yourself about the behavior, how you address the behavior, and what is your hidden bias around just what you think a child's entitled to have in terms of are they entitled to have a voice? Do they get to have feelings and needs? Can they object to adults? where do you stand on any of those things? So I I would say we are consciously aware of very little that drives our own behavior. So that's the Pandora's box that I pry open regularly, every day, with the people on the path of conscious parenting and wanting to be more thoughtful than. maybe what they experienced as having been parented and the result of what it came through that experience. So I don't really feel like even large, anyway medium, I I don't even know what the number is, but I don't feel like a lot of people were consciously parented. speaker-1: Yeah, agreed. speaker-0: So if we're coming out of our own experience, which is the only one we have, then we either bumble through and wash and repeat and just do what was done. And we instead choose to do the really difficult thing, which is not do that and try to figure out what else to do. And how can I be present, right? In a way that empowers This next generation to just already know they have a voice. Because they they have one at the table. They got they got to have one at the table when they were really little. And and it never occurred to them not to. My daughter said to me once, Mom, I can't remember, she was probably seven, six, seven years old, mom, that lady would never have spoken to you that way. And she picked up on the bias. Because she hadn't experienced it up until then in her little, womb of a family. She hadn't experienced being a second class citizen, which most kids are so used to that they don't even recognize it. So the great marginalized community that nobody talks about is what I talk about all day long. speaker-1: Wow, so the great marginalized community being children. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Wow, I I've never heard that as a as a phrase. There's so much richness in that and I I so often work with the end products of punitive parenting, aggressive parenting, parenting where there's no space for big feelings. Yeah. All the way through to children should not be see should be seen and not heard, or just, you know, parents who are overwhelmed and there's no space for the child to even resource themselves and with their parents. They start to soon just kind of withdraw into their own little world and realize I've got to do this all on my own. I can't lean on my parents emotionally. And what you're describing is is as you say, it's conscious a conscious parenting revolution, a re revolution. And I love that you used the word presence or present. Because you know I and I'm curious about this. You know, as you say, you're holding these very regular groups and you're working with folk all the time. And on one level it sounds like there's a kind of a a turning the lens back at oneself, at one's parenting and really inquiring about behavior, beliefs, assumptions, where am I coming from? What do I think is okay and not okay? And that so that could be a kind of a I wouldn't say a cognitive analytic process, but it's definitely in a in a deep inquiry. But there's another aspect to it, and I'm curious about how this does or doesn't fit in, which is that word to be present, to be aware as one's parenting, to be fully present with one's child as much as one can, and what the effect of presence is. And is that are we talking about that at all in this? speaker-0: Yeah. So I I are you familiar with Eugene Gentland? So Gendlin's work was called Focusing. And he he created a a way for it's a lot, I mean, somatic training comes from Gendlin's work. So he is the source material. So I trained in that world. That's one of the trainings that, you know, informs my work. And This is about getting bigger than what's bugging you. By having a sense of self that's very expansive that can be present to anything just as it is. Where you are the space for all of it and that there's nothing wrong. There's nothing ever wrong. There's just information, something arising. And if I can be grounded as presence, I can be with it just the way it is and let it know it can be there for as long as it needs to be, just the way it is, which allows for a relaxation to occur when there's no sense of wrongness. And Gendland, who's really as as much a philosopher as anything, really. recognize that everything has within its its own next steps, which also brings with it a great big breath. That there's an intelligence present that has within it its own next steps. So all I really need to do is stay grounded in being bigger than what's bugging me. So I'm not fused with it, identified with it, drowning in it. And that's the practice. It goes deeper than meditation, or it doesn't go deeper than meditation. It it stays at a different level. Meditation goes much deeper. Focusing is a way of getting connected to what your body's trying to communicate to you. So it brings the body in as a source of wisdom. So when we're talking about communication, there are so many different ways to connect with ourselves first, foremost, and what's present. In a way that allows for the healing process to unfold naturally. And that's really being able to stay with what's really painful in a way in which it's finally being experienced as being presenced by someone and it turns out to be you who gets to presence yourself. speaker-1: Super juicy. I love that. There was an enormous amount of depth that you were communicating there. You know, in my work, I'll often talk about the fact that when we're communicating and being around other human beings, most of us have learnt to be up and out, kind of scanning, working out what needs to be done. We're often up in our heads. We're kind of Hijacked by conditioning mostly, anything from pleasing conditioning to reactive conditioning, whatever else it is. And so I'll ask folks to consider this kind of sitting back and down and moving out of this neck up awareness into you could call it the fullness of ourselves, to awaken to, to pay attention to the symphony of sensations that move through us. as we communicate and interact with other human beings and to reassociate with all of ourselves. And and and then speak from that, having taken a a a a pause. And I think it's I I yeah, I I do know what focusing is. I I didn't know the originator of it, and I've never heard it described so eloquently before. So that was absolutely magnificent. Yeah, that was really, really magnificent. So what does it look like as you take parents through that journey of reflection, but then also developing the skill set of a kind of a whole being presence, a wise, spacious, intuitive presence? speaker-0: It's so much easier if you aren't taking things personally. And when you begin to have a sense of, I really have been sleepwalking. I haven't even been there. These patterns, these deeply ingrained patterns that have been passed on for generation after generation and infused in me from zero to five before I was even differentiated in my own consciousness. I don't even know what my patterns are. I myself am discovering them. I can be as curious about what just came out of my mouth or what I did as you are. wow, that is wild, that to have that level of just depersonalization allows the freedom to change. It's when we think that's who we are that the shame storms come in, that the humiliation comes in, that the the self-shaming piece paralyzes us. because we're so deeply ingrained in self-criticism. So I would say that's such an important first step. No fault, no blame, no guilt, no shame, that atmosphere. So if we live in the no fault, no blame, no guilt, no shame, we're shifting into a whole new universe. So I talk about Rumi and, you know, the Persian poet who talks about the field over there beyond rightness and wrongness. And I'll meet you there. And I think about the field. I think about Rumi. And I I try to Encourage, the people in communities that I circle in to just can we just all really imagine what that would look like? And then when we find ourselves in breakdown with a family member, there's openings, there's possibilities. And I had a client just yesterday whose 31 year old daughter has known me a long time. And actually the mother insisted I put together a training when that child was on her way to college. So she was probably what, seventeen, maybe eighteen. and so she's known me for 13, 14, 15 years, probably her whole life now that I think about it. But anyway, from the training perspective, she was able to see that she and her mom were in l in a dance. And she reached out and said, Would you help mom and I see the dance we're in? Cause I know it's over, it just keeps repeating over and over and over again. And so when that happens, it's so wonderful because you get the mom and the daughter together. Recognizing that we're in a pattern that's hurting us in our relationship. And I love you and you love me, and yet we still find ourselves in this painful pattern. What can we do about it? So the curiosity allows us to go deeper into understanding what is that underlying pattern without anybody having to feel like it's me or blaming anyone for it. It's so important to figure out a way to get past the blame thing. speaker-1: Yeah. Isn't it just yeah, that sounds very beautiful. You've deep trainings in NVC, non-violent communication, but conflict resolution. And I don't know about you, but certainly growing up and observing the world in motion, conflict seemed like a a ki a lose-lose, in inevitable, mutually assured destruction. When I first started Doing conflict in relationships, it seemed to be missiles flying backwards and forwards, and someone had to win, and one person needed to be right or got to be right. And having spent time mastering perhaps leading edge techniques and the best of managing conflict, what do you see as the potential? Well, even before we get to the potential. What does healthy conflict look like to you? And yeah, let's start there. speaker-0: So one of the I think cornerstones that shifted my whole world, I when I when I met Marshall Rosenberg and his work, the founder of the Center for Nonviolent Communication, it changed my life. He changed my life. I was very fortunate to get to train with him. And you know, he was did you ever meet Marshall? Did you get that privilege? speaker-1: I didn't meet him, just studied studied him. speaker-0: Yeah. It was it was definitely sitting in the presence of greatness. And and very funny. He was a super, you know, funny, yeah, lighthearted. But one of the the first things that that shook my world was he said, you choose how you hear something. Yeah. And I was like, that just opened up a whole new portal. Because up until then, all of the communications training I'd had was really more about how I was communicating and what kind of responsibility I was taking for that side of this dance. He opened up the other side, which is that I have a choice, how I hear you. And then he had these great giraffe and jackal ears. that he built into the training. And I could put my jackaliers on and hear through that. Consciousness, which is about good, bad, right, wrong. It's a consciousness of critical thinking, in the way of always analyzing, assessing, and making a lot of thoughts about somebody else. Or I could hear through my giraffe ears, which are the ears of compassion, love, and understanding and seeing past the presenting problem, seeing past someone's tragic expression of their unmet needs. So if you can see past the tragic expression of their unmet needs. And you're not hung up on evaluating whether you approve of the way they tragically expressed, disapprove of the way they tragically expressed, have feelings about how they tragically expressed. And I'll say that with the parents that I work with. Okay, we can just spend a while here going through your feelings about how you experience someone else's drowning behavior, or we can just acknowledge that they were drowning. You got splashed with water, and we can decide if we want to get in our little boat and help them get in the boat before they completely drown. What do you want to spend time doing? How how do you want to handle this? And, you know, sometimes it's the context that you paint, the picture you paint, and people can go, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right. I I have feelings about how they drown, and I'd rather get them out of the water before they really drown. So that was the beauty of that really getting to choose it. And that is life changing for me and informed my work. And the other really big piece is this, you know, a lot of communication trainings talk about, you know, when you've experienced something and you want to talk to that person about it, you start with an I statement. I, and then usually people say feel, and they want to talk about the feeling that they're having while this thing goes on. And the next really big piece for me was recognizing how dangerous it is to do that. And that if someone talks about their feeling when they've been catalyzed by this person's activity, behavior, whatever's going on, it really does feel like they're blaming them for their feeling as if they caused it. And so recognizing the difference between the catalyst and the cause of how I feel and being able to speak really specifically if I want to talk about my feelings, that I'm not blaming someone else, but that they have arisen and they're in the room. So we've we got to do something with them. And then the question becomes: to what extent does the conversation about what I'm going through involve another person? And and how would I involve that person in any efforts to make me feel better? Because I don't actually need them to change. I can let them and give them the freedom to be the way they are. I can also talk about my experience of this. has given rise to an experience internally in me, which I'm with now. I'm being with it right now. And I just wanted to share and open up that this is going on for me, just because I want to include you in my experience, but not from a place of you need to do anything for me. However, if my sharing some way lands in a way in which there's something in you that senses maybe this could have been revised in you, then that's wonderful. It's a really different way of thinking about conversations with other people when we're catalyzed. speaker-1: Absolutely. So and and there's some big fundamentals in there, aren't there? a shift from you like those those old phrases of you make me feel X, you know, th that shift to I take speaker-0: That's abuse. speaker-1: Right, exactly. So and it's a big shift for all of us to move to I take responsibility from these for these feelings. I've had feelings like this my entire life. When similar triggers have arisen, these feelings go all the way back to my earliest conditioning. And I feel vulnerable right now. Can we talk about it? And it's an invitation actually into one's vulnerability. And people tend to treat that with a lot more respect and safety. And everyone's disarming. And there's this incredible opportunity for a deepening of relationship. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a really different way than the world we live in. The you make me feel is on every billboard. it's it is the yeah, it is the formula of an advertising agency, you know, buy this thing, feel this way. and that link between the external as causing is fundamental to the advertising agency's success, but it's also a lie. And but it's a lie that we've all grown up with. The lie that you make me feel in our family systems, mom, dad, somebody's upset. And the blame comes because they did this thing, and then a feeling arose in the other person, and they blame that other for it. So it's it's it's like a fish in water. We don't know that there's any difference. It's probably fundamentally that shift out of victim blame consciousness, the greatest healer in the world is the ability to get out of that idea that you have to change someone else to feel better. speaker-1: Amen. Yeah. So let's just say we're triggered. Triggered by our kid, triggered by our partner, triggered by a work colleague. What do we do? speaker-0: So for me, the process that I I recommend is to acknowledge that you're in an overreaction. And that acknowledgement that you're in an overreaction usually comes with it the awareness that you're probably blaming, at least right then, in that moment. There's your physiology is catching up to your brain and it's blaming the catalyst. So just recognizing that you're in that blame state. And usually what's happening when we are triggered, I'm triggered, is that I'm making the other person wrong. I'm focused on getting them to change as if they're the issue. So there's a lot of manipulation and abusiveness and holier than thou and self-righteousness coming from me about it. And and so that's where that camera is turned back on myself and we focus not on what triggered me, but what am I doing when I am activated? And generally what we unless we know how to stop ourselves, the dances that we go into are to become the manipulator and to become the one who's abusive of the other. Because we think that they made us feel this way. Therefore, we're justified in punishing them because look what they did to me. So the whole thing is cloaked in one great big lie. But the magic comes when we're able to be triggered and go, my God, I'm so triggered. And I recognize that now I just want to blame you for my experience when I'm clear that actually you have nothing to do with it, that you're just bringing to the surface for me an unaddressed. deep wound that really requires me now to be present to myself. So I'm going to take myself away and I'm going to give my inner three year old the love she needs from me so that she can recognize that she's not alone anymore. speaker-1: Beautiful. And so let's just say we get into that place of safety, what do we d what happens next? speaker-0: So the process is getting grounded. The process of getting bigger than what's bugging us is getting grounded. And there are different ways that I would walk someone into, or once you know how to do it, you can walk yourself into that sense. And then being able to just close your eyes and be sensitive to where in your body you're holding this thing. And then oftentimes the next step is to say hello to it. Let it know you're with it. And then in order to somatically experience that connection, you'd put your hand there. So maybe you feel it in your heart, or maybe you feel it in your tummy, or maybe you're feeling it in your head. everyone holds their energy differently, their trauma places differently. So then you just are present and that connection, there's a sense that in some of us. There's a lack of trust that we're really there for it. And so the expression is that it's a little bit like a doe in a woods. And how would you need to be to allow that dough to come closer to you? What qualities of presence would be required in order for it to feel safe enough to be seen by you even more? So then it's cultivating that. And just literally holding space and being presence so that it can come forward to be sensed into how really sensing how would you how would it like me to be with it? And then creating that so that that healing can happen. It usually requires a lot of patience. Stillness, so that it does have that sense of safety that this time it's not going to be abandoned and that it will continue to have my attention so that it can feel seen, heard, and understood from its perspective, and requires wanting to know that it's been fully felt. So that washing through of tears or whatever arises can be can be experienced. So it feels completely known, at which point it then is interesting how much transformation can occur, how much healing can happen, how that moment when you're catalyzed and triggered does truly become the gift. speaker-1: I love that. It's so powerful. You know, I I I'll sometimes describe the process a little differently, but really the same. You know, I often put it on two hands, a process like this. But before before I even go there, I'd say most of us will have learned to want to make the feeling go away. Maybe first we'll do we'll try and project it back at the other, bark, bark, bark, scurry away, or just freeze and shut down and withdraw. But Once we get into this place of safety where we can work with it, I think as someone who who who learnt a lot of healing skills, I I rush too quickly to process the feeling as opposed to be with it. And really just to celebrate the what what you shared there so eloquently, this settling down to be with the experience, to not move past it. And I think Just to really say that so clearly to everyone who's listening, who's curious about pro being with and working with big triggers skillfully, this beginning stage of pausing, which not even beginning this, it could be a lot of the the whole experience of settling down, slowing down, and patiently, lovingly being present with the experience, not just cognitively, but deep in the body. And that doe in the forest, inv inviting poets that are are mostly been often orphaned or shut shut away inside ourselves and inviting them to come forward. I think we might, when we've done a whole lot of that, then seek to integrate it with some processing, which could be journaling, and something like EFT where we cognitively process. Would that be a thing that you would suggest? Or are you more that are are you, you know, or or is there a very deep skill set that you see in the kind of focusing and being with? That releasing can pretty much completely take place in that aspect. speaker-0: first I just wanna comment on what you said earlier, which is what makes this distinctly different, is a lot of healing professions really do focus on feeling better. And so there is something that's being communicated about, the way you're feeling, there's something wrong with it. And this takes a completely different perspective, that there's actually nothing ever wrong. And that's really the first most beautiful step when you're finally in connection with this something is that there's a deep sense that is being communicated to it of there's nothing wrong here. this is completely okay. And this can be like this for as long as it needs to be. So let's just let's just put that out there right now. And ironically, of course, the minute you do that, that something relaxes completely because it doesn't have to fight to be seen anymore or fight for its legitimacy. We establish its legitimacy from the get go. And that usually it's so extraordinary, but the The magic of creating connection internally with these somethings that arise and being with them for as long as they need to be is that there's no forcing. It all is really allowing. And there is trust that there are truly within everything their own next steps. There's nothing that anyone has to do. So there's a there is a literal visceral experience of something moving from being held one place to just being released. Now, I think really sticky things don't necessarily resolve in one go. So yes, absolutely there may be the opportunity to play with the thing. And sometimes that can also hold the thing. And make the thing the thing still when it's actually released already. So I would be very cautious about anything like that as well. I would say that for the most part, the way that the work is is that Allow this to just be a complete session where what's new for you, you don't even know yet, because you've had that something in you that ache for so long you can't imagine life without it. And then all of a sudden it's like, but it's healed, it's not there anymore. So yeah, healing can truly just get that deeply resolved. speaker-1: Healing via focusing. Yeah. Is that right? Got it. Yes. And does that does that work with with really powerful traumas too? speaker-0: I can't think of anything that this doesn't work with. self in presence is the magic. The the I guess what I would say is when a trauma is so overwhelming, it's quite difficult to create space internally to be with it as opposed to merged with it. So that would be the the problem is, and there are lots of ways to deal with that when it's on your face and it's it's like you know, it's like literally right here, you know, and you can't create it. You think you're it. and so you can't presence it because you're not there. You're not self-in presence. You are subsumed into this pain. And so creating that ability can take a little while where there's enough. internal work and talk therapy is great i love talk therapy and in in accordance with talk therapy the focusing work can be very powerful so there can be other tools that may be necessary there might even be the need for medication i love to think that as someone in you know the healing work that the best thing i can do is not have a bias i know that Once upon a time I I probably had a bias against medication. And I I'm so glad I'm over that. So that when that's needed, it's just like, thank God that's there. Yeah. And we have whatever is needed available without any sense of one being like, you shouldn't do that. goodness. Yeah. I don't have any feelings like that anymore. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, I th I used to carry that too. So Tommy, given that what we've described around focusing, where do processing techniques like matrix reimprinting and EFT fit into your work, if at all, or were they things that you explored and then jettisoned? speaker-0: th I love EFT and matrix reimprinting, and I see them as When you're overwhelmed, especially with children, but doesn't have to be, but yes, with in the parenting thing, if you're able to introduce the EFT to help someone to be able to acquire complete I love and accept myself just the way I am, then that is a huge shift. And that creates the breath. So I look at all of these as other like like in the world of I don't know what's gonna help somebody, sometimes just that can shift the energy and create the space where deeper work can happen, to your point. and that can occur. Meditation operates at a whole different level, it moves past all of this to the depths. And because I Truly don't ever want anyone to do spiritual bypassing. And I've been around enough, so many, that I think think that you can just leapfrog over without ever being with what's actually there. And I haven't ever seen it really work. speaker-1: Right. speaker-0: I've seen a lot of, spiritual people in rooms that are in a lot of pain. speaker-1: And acting out. speaker-0: Just suffering. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. And it's like, wow, where was it communicated that turning toward the light meant n ignoring what's in your face? Calling for attention right now. I d I I do know that the the conversation around just feelings in general can get really interesting because a lot of the work is around getting bigger than what's bugging you, which is that ability to see that you're not your feelings. And a lot of society and a lot of people are so fused with their feelings, their feelings are dragging them around. commanding it's as they really have become subservient to their feelings. speaker-1: And their feelings arising often out of conditioning and reactiveness that's been unexamined. And so their nervous systems and emotional bodies are being played like a marionette by circumstance. And it's such an interesting dance, isn't it? This thing of because to become more present, to become aware of everything that plays out within oneself can be inherently dissociative. In other words, that we're separating from it, but I think we're talking about a a really skillful dance of a deep connection, association with everything that's playing out within oneself, whilst also being this kind of capacity around it or in it. And so that kind of leads me to a a place as we As we wind this to a close, what does it look like to you and how do you show up as your most authentic, skillful, present self? What does that look like and how do you do it? And would you recommend it? speaker-0: I just wanna one thing that that arose in my mind was awareness aware of itself. speaker-1: Yes. speaker-0: And that's that's what I think, when you were speaking a minute ago, I was like, yeah, you're talking about that state. The state of awareness, aware of itself. So that Aware that you're aware. Awareness aware of itself. So that's the most conscious we can be, I think, is when we are in the observer state of mind and we are observing it all without being attached. But we're we're also present to what we're in. And this is, for me, just it ties into your question, how does that play out in my world and my day to day living and showing up and and whatnot? Staying in that flow requires a practice. And the I would say that the tide is strong to get knocked off the path. It's not that hard to have it happen. So it requires it requires some Practice so that we remain firmly rooted in the observer and that awareness aware of itself, which is the sweet spot. That's the sweet spot. Move through life there, and you can have a sense of humor even as you're in the most appalling situations. Obviously, Gurudev Shushi Rabbi Shankar, my spiritual teacher. he says it's not hard to have a smile on your face when everything's going your way. But to have a smile on your face when it's not, now that's saying something. So I think about that all the time as I'm in my less than favorable situations in my life. And and I think, Well, okay. You know, how can I be in this situation with a smile on my face? So that as difficult things are happening. I'm able to be impervious. I can be in the world, but not of the world. So the safest place to be. and we've talked a lot about psychological safety. That is the safest place to be, is to have that kind of consciousness where you have cultivated the ability to, you know, vibrate at the highest frequencies and live there. As all the stuff goes down, all the shit's going down around you, and you're just like keep that smile on your face and recognize that I'm here. I chose to be here. How can I be in this in a way that could actually create some joy? Some joy. So that's that's I think really what I wake up to. Is okay, what's happening today? How are we going to surf through this? And you know, let's be honest, it's not a smooth ride. And there are opportunities for all of us, no matter how many decades we've been doing this, to fall flat on our face. So humility is just one like it's right around the corner. Yeah. speaker-1: That's so powerful. I love that, Catherine. Thank you. I really felt that. So where do people find you? What would you like people to where would where should they look you up and what that what would you like them to know about you? speaker-0: Go to freeparentingbook.com and download seven strategies to keep your relationship with your kids from hitting the boiling point. And that will give you my Amazon bestseller free of charge. Just go ahead, pop in there. And that's real life down-to-earth strategies. If you find yourself looking at some situations that you really would like to see them transformed, gives you some good solid ideas about like what you can do. and there's seven strategies. So it's if this one doesn't work, go to that one, just keep going through the list. And there's also conscious parenting revolution.com, or you could go to Katharinsellery.com. I also use that as a portal to choose between leadership and corporate stuff or parenting stuff. And we have a family lifeline community, again, free of charge. You can drop in there, join the community. And if you find yourself struggling and just needing a lifeline. And you can't get your kid to go to school or you can't get them to do their homework or you just find yourself overwhelmed with being a mom or a dad. That's what the family lifeline community is for. And I pop in and out of that so people can get some support. Yeah. speaker-1: Amazing. Yes. Well obviously we will share your links in the show notes. But I just want to say a huge thank you. I think you've shared such richness today and I really felt the depth of your work and the depth of your practice over many decades. I think I have no doubt you've traveled far and wide, internally and externally, and I can feel how much it informs your work. And I think it's been a real privilege and I I Please leave comments on the YouTube or the or mail in. I'd love to hear what everyone feels and what they noticed. Catherine, thank you so much for being here today. speaker-0: Thank you so much, Jeremy. as I said, I do a lot of these, but very rarely do I feel like I get to play with somebody who's doing such powerful work themselves. So I really appreciated this. Thank you. speaker-1: Thank you.