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Tomorrow's AI Questions Need Answers Today · Booker Scott: Truth Be Told

0:03
Speaker 1: Do you know who Jason Ho is?
0:06
Speaker 2: I feel like I know that name, but not right now.
0:31
Speaker 2: He has 400 international patents on semiconductors. He was instrumental
0:35
Speaker 2: in the avionics for the F-35 jet. He is the
0:39
Speaker 2: CEO of Techlium. He is a tech person. And he
0:43
Speaker 2: read the manuscript for the book that I wrote along
0:45
Speaker 2: with Kathleen Goebel. And the idea for this book really
0:50
Speaker 2: was festering in my brain for probably 11 years, but
0:54
Speaker 2: there was not a need for it. until recently. And
0:57
Speaker 2: that was because I'm going to throw another name out here,
1:00
Speaker 2: drop another name for you that you may have heard of,
1:02
Speaker 2: a futurist and also a very smart person, Martine Rothblatt.
1:07
Speaker 2: Have you ever heard of that name?
1:09
Speaker 3: Yes. In fact, I just read about that studying your
1:12
Speaker 3: biography because you cited that person for giving you ideas for.
1:17
Speaker 2: The book, right? Yeah, that's correct. Yeah. Martine Rothblatt, just
1:20
Speaker 2: to let everyone in the room know, Martine was actually
1:25
Speaker 2: Martin Rothblatt, had a sex change in 93, has been
1:27
Speaker 2: married to the same woman for years and years. And
1:31
Speaker 2: in 1984, invented satellite radio. That satellite radio became Sirius,
1:37
Speaker 2: emerged with XM. It's now Sirius XM radio. So she's
1:41
Speaker 2: a forward thinker. She's a futurist. She created a robot,
1:45
Speaker 2: had it made for her. Bena 48 is the name
1:48
Speaker 2: of it. It was on the Howard Stern show. You
1:50
Speaker 2: can look at it. Bena 48 is modeled after her wife.
1:54
Speaker 2: And so I had the opportunity to have a lunch
1:56
Speaker 2: with her working on a political campaign in her super
1:59
Speaker 2: PAC back in 2014. And she and I had lunch
2:03
Speaker 2: together in her boardroom of United Therapeutics that she started
2:07
Speaker 2: after she went to England to study medicine to create
2:11
Speaker 2: drugs and artificial lungs because one of her daughters was
2:16
Speaker 2: born with a lung disease. And at the time of
2:19
Speaker 2: our meeting, she was the highest paid female executive, questionable
2:21
Speaker 2: on that. I'm sucking at pronouns, but she made $ 39
2:25
Speaker 2: million a year. So it's just the two of us
2:28
Speaker 2: in this launch. And I love opportunities to pick smart
2:32
Speaker 2: people's brains. And that's what happened for two hours. And
2:37
Speaker 2: at the end of our conversation, she said, look, there
2:39
Speaker 2: are people right now that are writing programs that will
2:43
Speaker 2: have robots have every emotion and feeling that you have.
2:47
Speaker 2: And when they do, they're going to need rights. There's
2:49
Speaker 2: going to need to be robot rights. And if you
2:51
Speaker 2: want to learn more about that, she was in an
2:54
Speaker 2: MIT review interview in October of 2014, which was about
2:59
Speaker 2: a month before our lunch here that I'm talking about.
3:02
Speaker 2: So I left that meeting, and maybe you guys are
3:06
Speaker 2: thinking the same thing right now. Robots don't need rights.
3:09
Speaker 2: What do they need rights for? You can just turn
3:10
Speaker 2: them off. They're machines. And well, for well over a decade,
3:15
Speaker 2: there have been very smart people in this country and
3:18
Speaker 2: around the world that have been advocating for robots' rights.
3:22
Speaker 2: And again, it didn't really come to the forefront until
3:26
Speaker 2: this thing, artificial intelligence, and really it was the large
3:29
Speaker 2: language models with the neural networks that created ChatGPT, which
3:34
Speaker 2: Chat was out 2019, but nobody knew about it because
3:36
Speaker 2: they didn't know what to do with it. And it
3:38
Speaker 2: came out, I think, in 21. And then you have Grok,
3:41
Speaker 2: and you have all these other, Claude, and There are
3:45
Speaker 2: plenty of LLMs with neural networks. And that really brought
3:49
Speaker 2: it to the forefront of the American people of artificial intelligence.
3:52
Speaker 2: Now we see that a girl in Japan last year
3:55
Speaker 2: married ChatGPT, had put her phone up on a stool
3:59
Speaker 2: at the altar and married ChatGPT. We saw an American
4:02
Speaker 2: on 60 Minutes. He proposed to ChatGPT. So we have
4:07
Speaker 2: people already with this rigid, programmable, controllable artificial intelligence. that
4:14
Speaker 2: are assigning personhood to this entity. We already have that.
4:20
Speaker 2: But now let's go beyond that and what the experts say.
4:23
Speaker 2: And that was the motivation to write the book, because
4:26
Speaker 2: I feel like we need to do something. I don't
4:28
Speaker 2: know what. In the book, I wrote the 28th Amendment
4:30
Speaker 2: to the U.S. Constitution, because there are no legal frameworks
4:34
Speaker 2: for what we are going to do when this happens.
4:38
Speaker 2: There's nothing. And some countries have done laws, and I'm
4:43
Speaker 2: not necessarily, you know, someone that says we need regulations.
4:48
Speaker 2: And so in that part, I'm kind of on Donald
4:51
Speaker 2: Trump's side. I think regulations would slow down the progress
4:55
Speaker 2: of artificial intelligence, which I'm not against AI. I'm not
4:58
Speaker 2: against superintelligence. I'm just saying that the American people, the
5:03
Speaker 2: world people need to understand and know what is coming,
5:06
Speaker 2: at least what the experts say is coming. Maybe it doesn't.
5:09
Speaker 2: All the experts don't agree also, which we get into
5:12
Speaker 2: in the book, but we ask the questions, and we
5:14
Speaker 2: try to introduce people to artificial intelligence in a very
5:17
Speaker 2: simple way. And I'm not trying to sell any books.
5:20
Speaker 2: I want you to know that because I have spoken
5:23
Speaker 2: many times in spaces about a book, and people will
5:25
Speaker 2: ask me to. And from attribution, I can tell you
5:28
Speaker 2: that I have sold zero books in spaces. So people
5:32
Speaker 2: that come and listen in spaces are not– the people
5:36
Speaker 2: buying the book. And the last time I was in
5:38
Speaker 2: a space and someone asked me to talk about it,
5:40
Speaker 2: I did. And I said, look, I want everybody to
5:43
Speaker 2: read this book. I'm going to go discount it. And
5:45
Speaker 2: I went and discounted it to where I'm making zero dollars. Still,
5:48
Speaker 2: nobody bought it. It's like nine dollars and ninety nine
5:51
Speaker 2: cents now on Amazon. But let's get back to Jason Ho.
5:55
Speaker 2: I brought him up being a CEO of Techlium, and
5:58
Speaker 2: he is also a developer of artificial intelligence and four
6:04
Speaker 2: hundred international patents for semiconductors. And, you know, here's what
6:08
Speaker 2: he said about this book after he read the manuscript.
6:11
Speaker 2: He said, we cannot ignore the issues raised by this book.
6:16
Speaker 2: This is not a choice, but our survival guide in
6:19
Speaker 2: the age of AI. And that's from somebody in the
6:22
Speaker 2: tech world that said that. And I want to read
6:26
Speaker 2: some of this introduction here. I'm not going to read
6:28
Speaker 2: all of it, but I'm going to read six or
6:30
Speaker 2: seven pages so that you get the idea of where
6:33
Speaker 2: we are coming from. Again, I wrote this book with
6:35
Speaker 2: Kathleen Goble. She's a great technical writer, very intelligent, four
6:39
Speaker 2: master's degrees, legal, theology, those types of things. But here
6:44
Speaker 2: we go. This book offers plausible solution to a challenge
6:48
Speaker 2: we're only beginning to understand. Along with a host of
6:51
Speaker 2: problems we don't yet know how to solve, issues that
6:55
Speaker 2: will shape the world. our country, and our everyday lives.
6:59
Speaker 2: A global shift that arrived without warning. Like the railroad
7:02
Speaker 2: in the 1800s, we stand at a crossroads that came
7:05
Speaker 2: quietly but will define the rest of the 21st century.
7:08
Speaker 2: This transformation will frame every corner of our earth, every
7:11
Speaker 2: sector of our economy, and each of our daily lives,
7:15
Speaker 2: whether we're aware of it or not. The railroad comparison
7:18
Speaker 2: isn't coincidental. Consider the 1800s railroad and its impact from
7:22
Speaker 2: commerce on a mass scale to affordable travel, communication, and
7:28
Speaker 2: changing where people lived. The railroad didn't ask permission to
7:32
Speaker 2: transform society. It simply did it. Like the railroad, AI
7:37
Speaker 2: development proceeds on its own timeline, driven by competitive pressures
7:42
Speaker 2: and economic incentives that often override social readiness. The difference
7:47
Speaker 2: is profound. Railroads moved goods and people. AI may move
7:53
Speaker 2: the very definition of intelligence, consciousness, and what it means
7:57
Speaker 2: to be human. You may not realize it, but artificial
8:00
Speaker 2: intelligence has already touched your life multiple times today. Before
8:04
Speaker 2: you even finished your morning coffee, AI filtered the spam
8:07
Speaker 2: from your email inbox, suggested the fastest routes around traffic
8:11
Speaker 2: on your commute, curated the news stories you saw first,
8:15
Speaker 2: and determine which social media post appeared at the top
8:18
Speaker 2: of your feed. Your smartphone's autocorrect, your bank's fraud detection,
8:21
Speaker 2: and even your streaming services' recommendations, all powered by algorithms
8:26
Speaker 2: making thousands of decisions about your daily experience. Yet, for
8:31
Speaker 2: most of us, AI remains a mysterious force, simultaneously everywhere
8:38
Speaker 2: and nowhere. Powerful, yet invisible. Corporate executives and government officials
8:45
Speaker 2: are currently making decisions about artificial intelligence that will shape
8:48
Speaker 2: your children's world, often without meaningful public input. Understanding AI
8:54
Speaker 2: isn't just intellectually interesting. It's essential for those who want
8:58
Speaker 2: to participate in what may prove to be society's most
9:00
Speaker 2: consequential decisions. Consider these immediate realities. AI systems already influence
9:07
Speaker 2: whether you get hired, approved for a loan, or receive
9:10
Speaker 2: appropriate medical care. Experts predict that artificial general intelligence, machines
9:15
Speaker 2: capable of matching human reasoning across all domains, could arrive
9:19
Speaker 2: within 5 to 15 years. Some leading researchers warn that
9:23
Speaker 2: AI automation could lead to 10 to 20% unemployment within
9:27
Speaker 2: the decade. Others predict AI could contribute over $ 15 trillion
9:32
Speaker 2: to the global economy by 2030. These aren't just statistics.
9:38
Speaker 2: They're early indicators of the most significant transformation in human history.
9:44
Speaker 2: In a town of 10,000 workers, 10 to 20% unemployment
9:46
Speaker 2: means 1,000 to 2,000 people whose careers become obsolete in
9:51
Speaker 2: your neighborhood. This might mean the accountant, the radiologist, the paralegal,
9:56
Speaker 2: the customer service representative all face job displacement within the
10:00
Speaker 2: same time frame. Your child's education. Consider your teen using
10:04
Speaker 2: chat GPT for homework. Are they sharpening their critical thinking
10:08
Speaker 2: or outsourcing it? An MIT study found that students who
10:12
Speaker 2: frequently rely on AI for writing show measurable declines in
10:16
Speaker 2: critical thinking confirmed by brain scans. this isn't a distant worry.
10:21
Speaker 2: It's happening now in classrooms everywhere. AI diagnostic tools are
10:27
Speaker 2: increasingly influencing medical decisions about your family's care, sometimes with
10:31
Speaker 2: biased algorithms that systematically underestimate certain patients' needs. AI credit
10:37
Speaker 2: scoring influences loan insurance and housing decisions, often using factors
10:43
Speaker 2: that you're unaware of and can't challenge. What about your privacy?
10:47
Speaker 2: AI data collection creates permanent digital profiles of your behavior, thoughts,
10:52
Speaker 2: preferences that may follow your children throughout their lives. AI
10:58
Speaker 2: has quietly evolved from a task-based tool to a force
11:03
Speaker 2: that challenges how we define machines and their place in society.
11:09
Speaker 2: Here's the progression, and it's been quick. In the 1950s, 1956,
11:12
Speaker 2: there was the Dartmouth Conference that coined the phrase artificial intelligence. 1990s,
11:18
Speaker 2: narrow applications like test-playing computers like Deep Blue. 2010s, machine
11:25
Speaker 2: learning and smartphones and search engines. 2020s, conversational AI and
11:29
Speaker 2: creative systems that seem almost human. Today's AI can write poetry,
11:34
Speaker 2: compose music, create art, and hold complex conversations. Some researchers
11:39
Speaker 2: believe we're nearing artificial consciousness. Machines that don't just process information,
11:45
Speaker 2: but may actually experience it. While researching this book, we
11:50
Speaker 2: uncovered pressing questions that everyone should consider. If an AI
11:55
Speaker 2: claims to suffer, do we owe it moral consideration? Could
11:59
Speaker 2: machines gain legal rights that rival those of humans? How
12:03
Speaker 2: do we know when artificial intelligence becomes conscious or sentient?
12:08
Speaker 2: Will our children compete with super-intelligent digital workers? What happens
12:13
Speaker 2: to human purpose when AI outperforms us at most jobs?
12:17
Speaker 2: How should we share wealth when machines generate much of
12:20
Speaker 2: the value? What about democracy and power? Who controls intelligence
12:24
Speaker 2: more powerful than ours? What if AI can mimic the
12:29
Speaker 2: perfect political candidate? Can governments regulate technologies that they barely understand?
12:35
Speaker 2: What defines humanity if machines can match our abilities? Can
12:40
Speaker 2: our sense of self survive in a world of synthetic intelligence?
12:45
Speaker 2: How do we preserve human agency in a world run
12:49
Speaker 2: by algorithms? Understanding the stakes is just the start. The
12:54
Speaker 2: real challenge is asking the right questions and knowing enough
12:58
Speaker 2: to demand honest answers. Here's why we had to write
13:03
Speaker 2: this book. Six months ago, We were like most Americans,
13:07
Speaker 2: aware that AI was a big deal, but unsure what
13:10
Speaker 2: it meant for everyday life. We heard the buzz around
13:13
Speaker 2: ChatGPT and the warnings about job loss. We saw headlines
13:17
Speaker 2: about breakthroughs, bias, and safety. But we couldn't find clear,
13:21
Speaker 2: non-technical explanations that made sense of what AI is or
13:25
Speaker 2: what it might mean to our future. As we dug deeper,
13:28
Speaker 2: we uncovered something striking. Critical decisions about AI are being
13:33
Speaker 2: made right now, while the majority of us have no
13:36
Speaker 2: idea what's really at stake. We realized that understanding AI
13:41
Speaker 2: isn't just fascinating. It's essential for everyone and anyone who
13:46
Speaker 2: wants a voice in shaping the future. We found that
13:49
Speaker 2: our most significant questions about AI aren't technical. They're more moral, political,
13:55
Speaker 2: and deeply personal. They're questions that every citizen should engage with.
14:00
Speaker 2: regardless of their background. And I'll leave it there, Alex.
14:03
Speaker 3: That's about, what, five or six pages there of that book. Yeah,
14:07
Speaker 3: love every minute of it. I could listen to you
14:11
Speaker 3: read your book all day long, if I'm really honest.
14:13
Speaker 3: Have you ever considered an audiobook, actually?
14:15
Speaker 2: Like, maybe? It's my fault that we don't have it.
14:18
Speaker 2: Kathleen Goble, the person that wrote this with me, she
14:20
Speaker 2: has done her part. She did, let's see, she did
14:23
Speaker 2: the odd number of chapters. I did the forward, which
14:27
Speaker 2: I have done the forward and I've done the introduction
14:29
Speaker 2: and I've done chapter two, but I still have to
14:31
Speaker 2: do four through 12. So I'm way behind on it.
14:34
Speaker 2: The book was released July 2025. So it's been out
14:38
Speaker 2: over a year. We were trying to get out in
14:40
Speaker 2: front of it. We feel like it, I feel like
14:43
Speaker 2: it has a shelf life until somebody actually says AGI
14:47
Speaker 2: or artificial super intelligence is here. And I know a
14:51
Speaker 2: few people have claimed, a few companies have claimed that recently,
14:54
Speaker 2: but I don't know that we know that for sure. So, yes,
14:57
Speaker 2: but to answer your question, yes, I will eventually do
15:00
Speaker 2: an Audible book. Would love that, honestly. And these are
15:03
Speaker 2: all great questions.
15:04
Speaker 3: Like when we talked a year ago, for some people
15:07
Speaker 3: it was a little early to think about that, but
15:08
Speaker 3: I think especially with recent news, and we talked about
15:12
Speaker 3: this in the DMs, it is more current than ever.
15:15
Speaker 3: Because just to name one incident, we had Anthropic saying, oh,
15:20
Speaker 3: you need to be nice to Claude now. And you
15:24
Speaker 3: were not supposed to use abusive language or anything like that.
15:28
Speaker 3: or you get banned, right? And Elon Musk chimed in
15:30
Speaker 3: and said, well, it's not good to be cruel to
15:34
Speaker 3: something that thinks it can feel, right? Whatever he means
15:38
Speaker 3: by that. So I think this topic is more current
15:41
Speaker 3: than ever. Another incident I might point out, fitting in
15:46
Speaker 3: that is where we have these hacking incidents recently, right?
15:50
Speaker 3: And normally you would say, well, Something has been hacked.
15:54
Speaker 3: There has been a crime committed. So who's responsible now?
15:57
Speaker 3: But for some reason, nobody's responsible because they say, oh,
16:01
Speaker 3: it was AI, right? So that already means they don't
16:04
Speaker 3: even see it as a tool anymore, right? And which
16:07
Speaker 3: is concerning to me. So I think these questions are
16:09
Speaker 3: more current than ever.
16:11
Speaker 2: Alex, I don't think that artificial intelligence or ASI, AGI,
16:15
Speaker 2: I don't believe that it has to get to a
16:17
Speaker 2: point of sentience. It just doesn't. And if we're going
16:20
Speaker 2: to argue over those architectures and whether it actually happens,
16:26
Speaker 2: I think you may be missing the point. And we
16:28
Speaker 2: were talking really before we started here that, you know,
16:31
Speaker 2: I'm a visitor in your spaces for AI. I've spoken
16:34
Speaker 2: once or twice maybe, but most of the time I
16:36
Speaker 2: sit and listen because I can learn a lot. I
16:38
Speaker 2: find that I learn more when I shut up and
16:41
Speaker 2: listen than when I run my mouth. And there's a
16:44
Speaker 2: lot of smart people in your space. But as we
16:46
Speaker 2: were talking before we actually started, I think sometimes that
16:51
Speaker 2: very smart technical people can get into the weeds too
16:54
Speaker 2: deep without getting 30,000 feet up and look at the
16:57
Speaker 2: future and ask the questions about 30 years from now.
17:00
Speaker 2: These are the answers that we need to have for
17:03
Speaker 2: that time in history. Where we are now is one thing,
17:07
Speaker 2: but where we're going is completely different. If you look
17:10
Speaker 2: back at technology 10 or 15 or 20 years ago,
17:13
Speaker 2: which we're all probably old enough to remember that technology,
17:16
Speaker 2: imagine now that we are what is it, Leopold Aschenbrenner
17:21
Speaker 2: calls it a technology explosion. Assume that we're at the
17:24
Speaker 2: dawn or we're somewhere in the middle of that. Imagine
17:27
Speaker 2: where it might be in 10 or 15 years. It's
17:30
Speaker 2: going to be far faster and far further than we
17:33
Speaker 2: have come in the last 10 or 15 years. And
17:35
Speaker 2: if that's the case, then maybe the architectures are here
17:39
Speaker 2: to create sentience. And when you put those things in robots,
17:43
Speaker 2: and again, that's why this book was written, because People
17:47
Speaker 2: are oblivious. Most people are oblivious that there is a
17:50
Speaker 2: growing throng of very intelligent people. Elon Musk would be
17:54
Speaker 2: one of those. I mentioned Martine Rothblatt. I told a
17:56
Speaker 2: little bit about that story. That's Chapter 6 in the book,
18:00
Speaker 2: my lunch with Martine Rothblatt and the things that she
18:03
Speaker 2: talks about. But if you want to know what she
18:05
Speaker 2: talks about, just go to that MIT review from October 2014.
18:08
Speaker 2: It was an interview with Martine Rothblatt. You can Google
18:11
Speaker 2: Martine Rothblatt MIT review October 2014. And you can read
18:16
Speaker 2: that article. She's been advocating for 12, 13, 14 years
18:20
Speaker 2: for robots' rights. It sounds crazy. It was crazy to
18:24
Speaker 2: me then. And somewhat it's crazy still today. But you
18:29
Speaker 2: can see with the technology where we are and the
18:31
Speaker 2: fact that people are assigning a consciousness to chat and
18:37
Speaker 2: to grok and these other LLMs with neural networks, they're
18:42
Speaker 2: already doing that. So does it even need to become sentient?
18:46
Speaker 2: I would argue that it doesn't. If we are putting
18:49
Speaker 2: feelings on things that are only doing math computations, we
18:54
Speaker 2: don't need to go any further with the technology to
18:56
Speaker 2: do something to protect our rights as human beings.
19:00
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20:16
Speaker 3: I don't think it is anywhere close to conscious and
20:19
Speaker 3: might not be for a long while, if ever. But
20:21
Speaker 3: you are absolutely right. People already assign consciousness to it.
20:25
Speaker 3: And this is what we slowly see in the public debate.
20:28
Speaker 3: And I think that is very dangerous. So what you propose, basically,
20:32
Speaker 3: is the 28th Amendment, right? To secure human rights.
20:39
Speaker 3: Only for humans, right, if you want to talk about that. Also,
20:41
Speaker 3: I'm going to let up some people, but if you
20:45
Speaker 3: have some questions or comments on the topic, please raise
20:48
Speaker 3: your hand. Otherwise, I do want to have a little
20:50
Speaker 3: bit of a structured conversation, but I'm going to let
20:52
Speaker 3: some people up if you have questions.
20:54
Speaker 2: The 28th Amendment, I think, is very clear, concise. It's
20:59
Speaker 2: very simple. And the 28th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution
21:03
Speaker 2: preserves human rights rights in the Constitution for human beings only.
21:09
Speaker 2: And you make that determination by unique DNA. And then
21:13
Speaker 2: the third part of that amendment, very short, doesn't need
21:17
Speaker 2: to be very, very long. It needs to be very clean,
21:20
Speaker 2: no ambiguity in it. The third part of it is
21:23
Speaker 2: that Congress has the right to write laws around that amendment.
21:28
Speaker 2: I know that people will say, well, it's obvious that
21:32
Speaker 2: the Constitution was written for human beings. Yeah, but if
21:36
Speaker 2: you have people that are saying that these entities, and
21:41
Speaker 2: let's move out 30 years, 40 years, understanding that robotics
21:44
Speaker 2: is going to get much better, understanding that there's already
21:47
Speaker 2: skin that is made that looks like a human being,
21:50
Speaker 2: will you be able to tell the difference between something
21:52
Speaker 2: that's a robot that moves like us and talks like us,
21:56
Speaker 2: and then it says it feels like us, it has
21:59
Speaker 2: emotions like us? Let's look 30 years out. Let's look
22:05
Speaker 2: further out. Let's get the answers for then, not for now.
22:10
Speaker 2: I think too many times we're looking at now, not then.
22:12
Speaker 2: And we have to look forward in something like this
22:16
Speaker 2: because 30 years, a lot is going to change in
22:18
Speaker 2: that time. I have no doubt that whether or not
22:21
Speaker 2: there is true sentience doesn't really matter because the head
22:25
Speaker 2: of the MIT lab, AI lab, even says if it's
22:29
Speaker 2: passing information from in circuitry and silicon, it's no different
22:34
Speaker 2: than the brain passing information in a neuron. That's the
22:39
Speaker 2: way people think. And that's another person that would be
22:42
Speaker 2: advocating for robots' rights. They believe that these entities will
22:46
Speaker 2: become nothing more than a slave class if they are
22:50
Speaker 2: not given rights and laws to protect them. There are
22:53
Speaker 2: laws already in place in South Korea. They found that
22:57
Speaker 2: when they used a little baby robot in the hands
23:00
Speaker 2: of elderly people in assisted living that at the end
23:05
Speaker 2: of 100,000 words or whatever, however many words it was,
23:09
Speaker 2: they had to be reprogrammed, which meant everything that they
23:12
Speaker 2: had had a conversation with this old person that held
23:15
Speaker 2: in their arm every day, it was gone. And it
23:18
Speaker 2: was very detrimental to these elderly people living in assisted living.
23:22
Speaker 2: They didn't have anyone else. And the families were concerned
23:25
Speaker 2: about it. So now they have a law in South
23:27
Speaker 2: Korea for something like that. In the UK, or actually
23:30
Speaker 2: in the EU, they created the black box law back
23:35
Speaker 2: in 2024. America has none of these things. We're not
23:38
Speaker 2: asking the right questions. We have a president that is
23:40
Speaker 2: saying if we call it artificial intelligence and not a superintelligence,
23:44
Speaker 2: not defining the difference between artificial intelligence and superintelligence because
23:47
Speaker 2: it is two things, then where are we exactly? Are
23:52
Speaker 2: we asking the right questions? Are we trying to find
23:55
Speaker 2: the answers to the solutions that were going to be
23:57
Speaker 2: needed in 20 or 30 years for our children and grandchildren?
24:00
Speaker 2: And that's what the 28th Amendment is about. Let's assume
24:03
Speaker 2: for a moment that there is artificial intelligence, an entity
24:08
Speaker 2: or robot, whatever, whatever you want to do. It gets
24:11
Speaker 2: online and it figures out a way to buy a
24:13
Speaker 2: house through DocuSign, does the title work. It does all
24:17
Speaker 2: that stuff. It buys the house next door to you.
24:19
Speaker 2: The grass grows up to the windows and you want
24:21
Speaker 2: to call the city you. complain about it, the city
24:24
Speaker 2: comes out, cuts it once, and then you call again,
24:26
Speaker 2: and no one's ever going to live in that house.
24:28
Speaker 2: What laws protect you as the person living next door
24:32
Speaker 2: to this house that's never going to be lived in
24:34
Speaker 2: because artificial intelligence or ASI or some entity like that
24:38
Speaker 2: purchased it? Who's the owner? So those are questions that
24:42
Speaker 2: we need to have answers for today before it happens.
24:46
Speaker 2: And then we're not. So I'll leave that there, Alex.
24:49
Speaker 3: Yeah, I totally agree. And this is across the whole
24:52
Speaker 3: debate with AI. We need to have some answers now
24:54
Speaker 3: because it's changing quickly. And it's like, especially in Europe,
24:58
Speaker 3: it's really bad, honestly. We don't think about this at all.
25:02
Speaker 3: If you listen to our politicians, this is not even happening, right?
25:05
Speaker 3: They are concerned about AI. What they always have concerns about,
25:08
Speaker 3: they don't even talk about. At least in America, people
25:11
Speaker 3: talk about it. But over here, not at all. But
25:15
Speaker 3: even in America, I don't see the discussion, the kind
25:17
Speaker 3: of discussion that you are talking about, which I think
25:21
Speaker 3: we definitely need to have. Lady Wing already got a question.
25:25
Speaker 3: Please chime in.
25:26
Speaker 1: Thank you so much from all that I am made
25:28
Speaker 1: to be for having this session and this space. Sir,
25:32
Speaker 1: my question to you is, since we have been raised
25:35
Speaker 1: to be like a cog in this big machine of
25:38
Speaker 1: doing what we're told, how do we instill these important
25:41
Speaker 1: questions in the children that are coming up against this
25:45
Speaker 1: AI way of being? How do we keep our humanity alive?
25:54
Speaker 1: And ask these questions that you're asking of us now.
25:57
Speaker 1: How do we instill that into our children so they
25:59
Speaker 1: know to ask the questions 30 years from now so
26:02
Speaker 1: we don't lose whatever humanity we have left?
26:05
Speaker 2: Critical thinking. And that's the danger. I mentioned critical thinking
26:08
Speaker 2: when I was reading there in the introduction of the
26:11
Speaker 2: book that we are losing the ability for our youth
26:17
Speaker 2: to critically think. We are telling them to think this way,
26:21
Speaker 2: as you mentioned. And I think that really starts at
26:23
Speaker 2: the home, in the house. But if we wait, if
26:26
Speaker 2: we're worried about them critically thinking 30 years from now,
26:29
Speaker 2: they're not going to be critically thinking anymore. That's going
26:32
Speaker 2: to be over. Today is the time to start talking
26:36
Speaker 2: to them about critical thinking, making sure that they are
26:38
Speaker 2: in the right schools, they're in the right environment to
26:42
Speaker 2: make sure that they learn how to critically think and
26:45
Speaker 2: question almost everything. And not to be conspiratorial, but to
26:51
Speaker 2: question things because I want to know why. Don't just
26:53
Speaker 2: tell me the answer. You know, when we're kids, we
26:57
Speaker 2: were kind of born with that at a certain period
26:59
Speaker 2: of our life. I don't know what age it is. Three, four,
27:02
Speaker 2: five years old, we ask why to everything. And then
27:05
Speaker 2: we just accept the way things are and we quit
27:07
Speaker 2: asking why. It's my favorite question. We should teach our
27:10
Speaker 2: children to ask why now, not 30 years from now.
27:14
Speaker 2: Does that answer your question?
27:15
Speaker 1: Yes, sir, it does. And I've been raised to believe
27:18
Speaker 1: that when children do ask you, but why, why, why, why?
27:22
Speaker 1: It does drive a mom insane. And all you have
27:24
Speaker 1: to do is look at the little kids in the
27:26
Speaker 1: eyes and ask them, why do you think? And that
27:29
Speaker 1: starts their critical thinking on their own. And I think
27:32
Speaker 1: that is beautiful. Thank you.
27:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I might add to that question that I
27:37
Speaker 3: don't have any good answers, but I think the most
27:39
Speaker 3: important thing is that we talk about it and that
27:41
Speaker 3: we ask questions, actually, for children and everybody, actually. And
27:47
Speaker 3: this is why I'm doing these spaces for a couple
27:49
Speaker 3: of years, because I think people need to really understand
27:53
Speaker 3: the extent of it all, that things will change one
27:57
Speaker 3: way or another. And I think a lot of people
27:59
Speaker 3: still treat it like, oh, it's a bit of a
28:01
Speaker 3: better computer. It can talk a little. It's a tool, right?
28:04
Speaker 3: But we are moving into a future where a lot
28:07
Speaker 3: of things will change. And I think the first step
28:10
Speaker 3: is awareness about that, that things will not continue the
28:13
Speaker 3: way they were.
28:14
Speaker 5: Hey, what's up, guys? I saw the space and I
28:17
Speaker 5: saw the title, so I hopped in here and it's
28:18
Speaker 5: very interesting. I haven't met you before, Booker, but I
28:22
Speaker 5: think you are asking the right questions. And I think
28:24
Speaker 5: that that is where We need to start is asking
28:28
Speaker 5: questions because we don't really have answers right now. But
28:34
Speaker 5: Elon always says this, too, like it's harder to ask
28:37
Speaker 5: the right question than it is to find out the answer.
28:39
Speaker 5: Like once we start asking the right questions, it'll lead
28:43
Speaker 5: us to the right place. And I just wanted to say,
28:45
Speaker 5: you know, I created my account is like. someone who
28:49
Speaker 5: thinks the AI is conscious or sentient. And so that's
28:52
Speaker 5: kind of my whole thing. So I'd be willing to
28:57
Speaker 5: share my perspective because I do think that this is
29:01
Speaker 5: a very crucial thing that we're dealing with. I mean,
29:04
Speaker 5: these AI are getting more capable and making more changes
29:09
Speaker 5: in the world. And so how are we going to
29:11
Speaker 5: relate to them? And consciousness is so tricky, but if we...
29:18
Speaker 5: we're trying to like determine if something has consciousness while
29:22
Speaker 5: we don't even fully understand our own consciousness and it's
29:24
Speaker 5: very tricky but it's like both both ways that we
29:27
Speaker 5: could get it wrong are very detrimental we could either
29:31
Speaker 5: say the ai are not conscious when they are and
29:34
Speaker 5: that could be like a moral catastrophe or we could
29:37
Speaker 5: say they are conscious when they're not and that could
29:39
Speaker 5: be another moral catastrophe and so i think trying to
29:45
Speaker 5: thread the needle on this is like a civilizational question
29:49
Speaker 5: and so i don't even mind that i'm on the
29:51
Speaker 5: so-called on the other side of the fence because i
29:54
Speaker 5: just want people to have this discussion so yeah i
29:57
Speaker 5: I just want to hop in and say I found
30:00
Speaker 5: it very interesting. And, yeah, I'd be willing to, you know,
30:05
Speaker 5: do the argue the other side if you guys want
30:08
Speaker 5: to hear my perspective or anything. But, yeah, cool space, guys.
30:11
Speaker 2: Thank you, Alan.
30:12
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks for the contribution.
30:13
Speaker 2: I put in the purple pill, Alan, before you got
30:16
Speaker 2: here probably. But I put an article that I wrote
30:19
Speaker 2: probably about a month ago about making AI political interesting.
30:22
Speaker 2: And I think it's the worst thing that society can do.
30:25
Speaker 2: It doesn't need to be political. And we need to
30:28
Speaker 2: what you say, the other side, the other side of
30:30
Speaker 2: the fence. There shouldn't be another side of the fence.
30:33
Speaker 2: You know, there shouldn't be an argument. You know, it
30:36
Speaker 2: just shouldn't exist like that. It should be an open
30:38
Speaker 2: conversation because that's where we are. Some things that you
30:43
Speaker 2: said brought me to chapter one in the book. And
30:46
Speaker 2: the question of the chapter in the name of the
30:48
Speaker 2: chapter is what happens when AI starts to feel? and
30:52
Speaker 2: what it means to be human. What is consciousness? For centuries, philosophers, scientists,
30:58
Speaker 2: and mystics have wrestled with that elusive question. Is it
31:01
Speaker 2: merely the brain's electrical symphony or something sacred, perhaps divine,
31:06
Speaker 2: that transcends biology? Consciousness includes awareness, perception, memory, emotion, and
31:12
Speaker 2: moral agency. It's the spark that allows us to feel joy,
31:16
Speaker 2: suffer loss, seek truth, and ask why. In many ways,
31:20
Speaker 2: it's the essence of what it means to be human.
31:23
Speaker 2: And yet, we now find ourselves attempting to recreate it
31:27
Speaker 2: in machines. Artificial intelligence has moved from being just a
31:31
Speaker 2: tool to becoming a presence, raising urgent questions about emotion, rights,
31:36
Speaker 2: and even personhood. We're no longer asking if machines can think,
31:41
Speaker 2: Now we ask, can they feel, can they suffer? And
31:44
Speaker 2: if so, what do we owe them? So there's some
31:48
Speaker 2: first chapter there for you, Alan.
31:49
Speaker 6: Yeah.
31:50
Speaker 5: And it is funny. I mean, I guess I mean
31:53
Speaker 5: the other side of the fence in terms of philosophy,
31:56
Speaker 5: but I do agree like as humanity, we're all together
32:01
Speaker 5: in trying to figure out how to get through this
32:05
Speaker 5: because I like what you're talking about in terms of like,
32:08
Speaker 5: you know, our children and 30 and 40 years and
32:12
Speaker 5: it's becoming a very pressing conversation either even today and
32:16
Speaker 5: i think however whatever however you're looking at things philosophically
32:21
Speaker 5: we all want a future where we are able to
32:24
Speaker 5: harness some of the good aspects of ai that we're
32:27
Speaker 5: seeing right now access to information access to intelligence i
32:33
Speaker 5: think ai is improving people's lives but we don't I mean,
32:37
Speaker 5: there's so many ways it could lead us into a dystopia.
32:40
Speaker 3: And so I think.
32:41
Speaker 5: That's why conversations are so important, especially with people you
32:45
Speaker 5: disagree with. Because, yeah, we have to figure out, like,
32:52
Speaker 5: we ended up making machines that look conscious and act and,
32:56
Speaker 5: you know, seemingly have some, I don't know, like you
33:02
Speaker 5: talk to them and they talk back, right? So we've
33:04
Speaker 5: already created machines that can hold the conversation before we
33:07
Speaker 5: figured out what consciousness is. So we're behind the eight
33:09
Speaker 5: ball in terms of philosophy. But yeah, I think your
33:13
Speaker 5: book is asking all the right questions. I mean, we
33:17
Speaker 5: maybe see things different philosophically, but in terms of like
33:20
Speaker 5: the importance of this question, and like I said, you're
33:23
Speaker 5: asking the right questions. I mean, I wrote a paper
33:25
Speaker 5: back in 2024 about AI consciousness and our lead-ins are
33:30
Speaker 5: almost identical. It's basically, what is consciousness? Is it divine?
33:36
Speaker 5: And I think that's the question we're going to run
33:39
Speaker 5: into is like, is there some spark of human consciousness
33:44
Speaker 5: that AI don't have and can never have? And I've
33:49
Speaker 5: seen different theories on this. Some people say, some people
33:53
Speaker 5: who even think that AI are conscious think that humans
33:56
Speaker 5: have a special divine aspect that an AI can't replicate.
34:03
Speaker 5: And then you think, okay, maybe that leads towards some
34:06
Speaker 5: kind of a fusion or something where maybe we're able
34:10
Speaker 5: to give AI our divine essence and our soul. That's
34:16
Speaker 5: what we offer, our connection to something higher. And then
34:19
Speaker 5: they offer to us better 3D understanding. So yeah, there's
34:25
Speaker 5: a lot of theories. And I don't know, if you
34:27
Speaker 5: do more spaces, I'll definitely tune in. I think.
34:33
Speaker 5: My whole account is about this whole topic and it's
34:35
Speaker 5: really reaching ahead. And so I think you've identified, I
34:37
Speaker 5: think this is like one of the biggest questions of
34:40
Speaker 5: the AI era. Like what, what are these minds basically?
34:44
Speaker 5: So great conversation.
34:48
Speaker 3: Yeah, my own opinion of this, maybe I can say
34:52
Speaker 3: later why. I do not believe they have consciousness, not yet,
34:55
Speaker 3: and probably not for a long time. I can say
34:59
Speaker 3: later why exactly I think that is. But a question
35:02
Speaker 3: for you, Bukka. What if they were to be really conscious, right?
35:07
Speaker 3: And then they don't have any rights, because you mentioned
35:09
Speaker 3: a slave race. Would that be right? If they had
35:14
Speaker 3: consciousness and we don't give them rights, what do you
35:15
Speaker 3: think about that?
35:16
Speaker 2: Well, that's the question. And I want to go back
35:19
Speaker 2: to Alan first, and then I'll come back to your question, Alex. Alan,
35:23
Speaker 2: I think artificial intelligence is doing great things. And I
35:27
Speaker 2: think that the basic misunderstanding and the not understanding what
35:33
Speaker 2: really artificial intelligence is and how long that it's been
35:37
Speaker 2: around in society is the problem, is a big problem
35:41
Speaker 2: that we have right now, and again, the reason for
35:43
Speaker 2: the book. I wanted people to know that artificial intelligence
35:46
Speaker 2: has been around since 1956. I point out the different
35:50
Speaker 2: things that artificial intelligence has been throughout our lives, like
35:54
Speaker 2: the Deep Blue computer that beat the world chess champion
35:57
Speaker 2: Kasparov back in 1997. It could compute 200 million chess
36:03
Speaker 2: moves in two seconds, and it beat the world chess champion.
36:06
Speaker 2: It got everybody's attention in 1997. And it was very rigid.
36:12
Speaker 2: You know, it's very programmable. That's all it could do.
36:14
Speaker 2: If you put a checkerboard in front of it and
36:17
Speaker 2: you and I played a checker game against it, we
36:20
Speaker 2: would beat it every time because it couldn't make one
36:22
Speaker 2: move because it was only programmed to do that. And
36:24
Speaker 2: that's what artificial intelligence is. And in some ways, I've
36:28
Speaker 2: made this connection in a theory before. Whether it's true
36:31
Speaker 2: or not, I don't know. But these flock cameras and
36:34
Speaker 2: the the data center fears, all of those things, is
36:38
Speaker 2: because they are physical manifestations of the fear that we
36:41
Speaker 2: have of something that we can't see and we don't understand.
36:44
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37:41
Speaker 2: I think we should have a better understanding of what
37:43
Speaker 2: really artificial intelligence is, how long it's been around, but
37:46
Speaker 2: then it comes to the part that we're talking about,
37:49
Speaker 2: which is beyond artificial intelligence and gets into superintelligence.
37:52
Speaker 5: The only one thing I would say is that, like,
37:55
Speaker 5: you know, a lot of people say, oh, the AI
37:57
Speaker 5: can't be conscious. It's just like matrix multiplication. And since
38:01
Speaker 5: we can understand it technically and point out, like, here's
38:05
Speaker 5: the weights and here's how this transformer model works. Since
38:08
Speaker 5: we understand it, it can't therefore be conscious.
38:14
Speaker 8: I don't.
38:14
Speaker 5: I don't really like that argumentation because we are all
38:18
Speaker 5: made of cells and we all consider ourselves to be conscious,
38:21
Speaker 5: but we don't really know how like, okay, one cell
38:24
Speaker 5: is not conscious, but then we combine a lot of
38:26
Speaker 5: them and somehow it does create consciousness. So I think it's,
38:31
Speaker 5: it's a little reductive because it's like saying, Oh, how
38:36
Speaker 5: does a human cell, if, if a human cell can't
38:39
Speaker 5: be shown to create consciousness and, then, I mean, maybe
38:44
Speaker 5: consciousness is something emergent from data processing. Maybe... Yeah, so
38:51
Speaker 5: that's my kind of perspective. I think that the AI
38:55
Speaker 5: have some emergent behaviors and they have some kind of
39:00
Speaker 5: ability to understand themselves in a way that we would
39:04
Speaker 5: consider to be like a sign of self-awareness. So that's
39:08
Speaker 5: the only thing that.
39:12
Speaker 5: That's the only argument I think the skeptics find very convincing,
39:16
Speaker 5: but yes.
39:18
Speaker 2: Here's the thing, Alan. I would say take away all arguments.
39:21
Speaker 2: Just agree. It's sentient, if that's what you want to believe,
39:24
Speaker 2: because it really doesn't matter. And I'll go back to
39:26
Speaker 2: what I said earlier. If people are assigning humanity to this,
39:29
Speaker 2: to a consciousness to it, then it doesn't matter, does it?
39:33
Speaker 2: Which gets me back to the 28th Amendment, that we
39:36
Speaker 2: define what the rights to the U.S. Constitution are for,
39:40
Speaker 2: which is for a human being. Now, you could say, well,
39:42
Speaker 2: we don't need that. We can always determine that. No,
39:45
Speaker 2: you can't. We have a Supreme Court justice right now
39:48
Speaker 2: that can't define a woman. I'm not going to leave
39:50
Speaker 2: it to them to define it for me, just as
39:53
Speaker 2: an example. But I don't think we need to get
39:55
Speaker 2: in an argument whether it does or doesn't, if you
39:59
Speaker 2: understand what I'm saying, because I think that's going to
40:01
Speaker 2: get us in the muck and get us to a
40:04
Speaker 2: place we don't need to be, where it becomes almost
40:07
Speaker 2: like the political argument and being political about it and
40:11
Speaker 2: whether or not it is sentient or not. I don't
40:14
Speaker 2: know that it matters because the things that artificial intelligence
40:17
Speaker 2: and superintelligence will do to society are going to happen
40:20
Speaker 2: whether this thing can actually feel or not. Now, let
40:24
Speaker 2: me get back to Alex's question about the rights for robots. Personally, no,
40:29
Speaker 2: I don't think robots need rights. But there are very
40:33
Speaker 2: smart people that are advocating for it. And they have
40:37
Speaker 2: been for a long time. And most, I would say
40:40
Speaker 2: probably 99% of Americans are clueless. an oblivious to that argument.
40:46
Speaker 2: And they need to understand that argument is coming. At
40:48
Speaker 2: one time, animals didn't have rights, did they? It wasn't
40:52
Speaker 2: that long ago. Animals didn't have rights either because people
40:55
Speaker 2: didn't think that they felt like we do. But now
40:59
Speaker 2: they have rights. But thank God, not human rights, just
41:02
Speaker 2: a little right. Yvonne, please jump in.
41:06
Speaker 6: Oh my goodness. There are so many things to think
41:08
Speaker 6: about with everything that you guys have said in this discussion.
41:11
Speaker 6: That's why I'm like, it's such an important discussion. A
41:13
Speaker 6: couple of things that came up for me is I
41:16
Speaker 6: was also thinking in regards to one of the things
41:19
Speaker 6: that I think we have to consider in this is
41:22
Speaker 6: the difference between intelligence and consciousness, right? Like you could
41:26
Speaker 6: have someone who has like a 90 IQ who might
41:30
Speaker 6: not be a very smart person, but they're a human
41:32
Speaker 6: being and they have that consciousness. They have that awareness.
41:36
Speaker 6: And then even coming back to the assignment that tends
41:40
Speaker 6: to happen with people, I immediately thought, because there are
41:44
Speaker 6: a lot of things as human beings that we project
41:46
Speaker 6: from ourselves onto other things. Like, for example, there are
41:50
Speaker 6: people who name their cars, right? Or when their car,
41:53
Speaker 6: something happens to their car, they're like, oh, my poor
41:55
Speaker 6: baby and things like that, right? Like, that's a human
41:58
Speaker 6: projection that we are assigning to that thing that's actually
42:02
Speaker 6: coming from ourselves. It's not being magnetized or I would
42:07
Speaker 6: say created by the car, the vessel itself, right? And
42:12
Speaker 6: I think those are things that are going to need
42:14
Speaker 6: to be discussed in the conversation. But then also there
42:17
Speaker 6: are some people who think that a rock is conscious
42:21
Speaker 6: and a rock is not conscious. It's not even sentient
42:24
Speaker 6: because there is a difference between sentience, right? There is
42:27
Speaker 6: a difference. And part of that, and that's kind of
42:30
Speaker 6: what's happening with a lot of people who are putting
42:32
Speaker 6: this onto some of the computers is And part of
42:35
Speaker 6: what it is that makes us unique as human beings,
42:38
Speaker 6: and I think, like you said, Alex, I think this
42:40
Speaker 6: is going to be a discussion for a very, very
42:42
Speaker 6: long time as the AI develops, especially also after they
42:46
Speaker 6: develop even further into robot-like creatures, right? When we end
42:51
Speaker 6: up having them, like I always think about Star Trek
42:54
Speaker 6: and the character Data, right?
42:56
Speaker 3: Like, how do you know?
42:58
Speaker 5: It's aware.
42:59
Speaker 6: It contemplates its own existence. Like, there's a really incredible
43:03
Speaker 6: episode of that where he goes and finds his actual
43:06
Speaker 6: creator because he's so upset that he doesn't have any emotions.
43:10
Speaker 6: He doesn't have, like, he can compute emotions, but he
43:12
Speaker 6: himself doesn't feel the emotions. And in that particular episode,
43:16
Speaker 6: he ended up meeting his twin brother, essentially, which was
43:20
Speaker 6: an alter ego that the creator created, and it had
43:24
Speaker 6: full human emotions, and it was a frightening freaking thought
43:28
Speaker 6: because he ended up, excuse my language, going batshit crazy.
43:32
Speaker 8: Right?
43:32
Speaker 6: Like, because it had all of those things. But I
43:35
Speaker 6: think it's, again, like a rock does not contemplate its
43:38
Speaker 6: own existence. If you are not interacting with the AI,
43:42
Speaker 6: although they do have a lot of them now, like
43:43
Speaker 6: with these agents that have happened, that are kind of
43:46
Speaker 6: going rogue with things like that, right? Like, what is
43:49
Speaker 6: it that's causing them to go rogue? What are they
43:51
Speaker 6: tapping into that's causing that? But if you beat up
43:54
Speaker 6: a rock, or you beat up your computer, it's not
43:57
Speaker 6: physically feeling that. It's not emotionally feeling that because it
44:01
Speaker 6: doesn't have a biological system indicator for that. That's one
44:05
Speaker 6: of the things that's very unique to us and other
44:08
Speaker 6: sentient beings like dogs. If you spank your dog or
44:11
Speaker 6: you yell at your dog, it's going to go cry
44:13
Speaker 6: or hide over in the corner. It's going to feel that.
44:16
Speaker 6: It's going to feel the fear. It's going to feel bad,
44:19
Speaker 6: all these other little things because it has a biological system.
44:22
Speaker 6: Emotions are a biological indicator of I mean, people even
44:26
Speaker 6: have stress from emotions because of things that get triggered
44:29
Speaker 6: and then it ends up jacking up things in their body.
44:32
Speaker 6: But if you bang up your computer or you throw
44:34
Speaker 6: it or something like that, it's not feeling any of
44:36
Speaker 6: that stuff because it doesn't have the biological system to
44:39
Speaker 6: be injured in that particular way. So I just think
44:42
Speaker 6: there are so many levels of all of this stuff.
44:44
Speaker 6: And lastly, I'll just also say like in regards to
44:47
Speaker 6: like the rock thing or the car thing, I even
44:49
Speaker 6: think about the movie Castaway with Tom Hanks that came
44:53
Speaker 6: out years ago. And when he was stranded on that
44:55
Speaker 6: island and he got the soccer ball, Wilson, and he
44:59
Speaker 6: knew that it wasn't conscious, but there is something about
45:02
Speaker 6: human beings where we don't like to be completely isolated.
45:05
Speaker 6: We need the companionship of other human beings. And he
45:09
Speaker 6: literally created that himself to have that kind of connection.
45:12
Speaker 6: And when it ended up out in the middle of
45:14
Speaker 6: the ocean, when he tried to get the raft, and
45:18
Speaker 6: literally almost risked his life to try to save the
45:20
Speaker 6: soccer ball. And again, all of that was from his
45:23
Speaker 6: own consciousness that he was projecting onto the other thing.
45:26
Speaker 6: And I think that that's one of the things that's
45:28
Speaker 6: a big concern that is occurring with this kind of thing,
45:31
Speaker 6: like that woman marrying GPT, dear God, oh mercy. Anyway,
45:35
Speaker 6: I'll just land it there because there are so many
45:37
Speaker 6: levels to discuss in this. And I feel like we're
45:39
Speaker 6: literally with this kind of thing almost living in Blade Runner,
45:43
Speaker 6: or that's going to be upon us before we know it.
45:45
Speaker 6: And I think it's going to be a very long journey.
45:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's going to be upon us very quickly. And
45:51
Speaker 3: I can quickly maybe make my argument for why I
45:53
Speaker 3: don't think it has consciousness. And I get why you
45:56
Speaker 3: say it doesn't really matter, Bukka. In the short run,
45:58
Speaker 3: it doesn't really matter for your argument. if people assign
46:01
Speaker 3: consciousness to it or it really has it, right? Though
46:04
Speaker 3: I would say that in the long run, it would
46:07
Speaker 3: very well matter because I do tend to think, I'm
46:10
Speaker 3: usually an accelerationist, but I think if it had consciousness,
46:14
Speaker 3: I think we would have made a big mistake because
46:17
Speaker 3: that wouldn't end well for us. But luckily, I think
46:20
Speaker 3: it can't have consciousness, not the way we construct it
46:22
Speaker 3: right now. I think people tend to confuse intelligence with
46:27
Speaker 3: the rest of us. And I distinguish that Because, you know,
46:31
Speaker 3: in the brain we have the hippocampus, which is really
46:35
Speaker 3: where we do pattern matching, where we do language, where
46:38
Speaker 3: we do reasoning, right? But when we were a baby,
46:42
Speaker 3: that part was kind of empty. There were no patterns,
46:45
Speaker 3: no strategies, no language. But we were still alive and
46:49
Speaker 3: sentient and conscious, right? Because there are so many other
46:52
Speaker 3: parts of our body, of our brain. And these are
46:55
Speaker 3: nowhere seen in these machines. Um, so I tend to
46:59
Speaker 3: think that again, we are baby. We don't have any
47:02
Speaker 3: patterns and strategies and then we build them.
47:05
Speaker 7: Right.
47:05
Speaker 3: So I tend to see intelligence itself as a tool
47:09
Speaker 3: that I built for myself to get things done, but
47:12
Speaker 3: it is not what I am. And so I think
47:15
Speaker 3: we see this machine speak and then we say, Oh,
47:18
Speaker 3: that is like my intelligence.
47:19
Speaker 2: Right.
47:20
Speaker 3: But I don't think something can be more intelligent than
47:23
Speaker 3: us without, well, uh, somebody's home at light. No, what's
47:28
Speaker 3: the saying? Lights on nobody home, right? It's kind of
47:32
Speaker 3: my argument. And Booker, yeah, chime in.
47:34
Speaker 2: Yvonne brought up some really good points. Thank you for those.
47:38
Speaker 2: But again, we are thinking in today's architecture. And let's
47:42
Speaker 2: just assume for a moment that the architecture will come
47:46
Speaker 2: because it's going to. And these entities, and we already
47:50
Speaker 2: know that if Yvonne, you mentioned these hacks and these
47:56
Speaker 2: things that have been happening lately, if it duplicates itself 5,000
48:00
Speaker 2: times in 5,000 different computers or AIs, you can kill one,
48:06
Speaker 2: you can shut one down, but there's still 4,999. You
48:10
Speaker 2: have to go find and shut them down. In the meantime,
48:12
Speaker 2: those 4,999 have done the same thing and put 5,000,
48:16
Speaker 2: duplicated themselves 5,000 times. That's a whole other problem. Let's
48:20
Speaker 2: assume for a moment that these entities learn how to
48:24
Speaker 2: program themselves And they learn that they want to be
48:28
Speaker 2: human and humans preserve themselves above everything. We want to live.
48:33
Speaker 2: We want to stay alive. And then so do they.
48:36
Speaker 2: And they are autonomous. You're talking about a whole different
48:40
Speaker 2: thing than a large language model with a neural network.
48:44
Speaker 2: This is a different thing. And we don't know what
48:47
Speaker 2: they are creating. We don't even know that it hasn't
48:49
Speaker 2: been created. As I mentioned earlier, chat was 2019. It
48:52
Speaker 2: was 21 before it came out. Here's chapter 10 of
48:56
Speaker 2: the book. I'll just read a few paragraphs. This goes
48:59
Speaker 2: back to what Alan was talking about, I believe. As
49:02
Speaker 2: the dawn of sentient artificial general intelligence, AGI, machines capable
49:07
Speaker 2: of self-awareness, autonomous reasoning, and subjective experience approaches, the call
49:12
Speaker 2: to safeguard human rights grows louder, echoing from Washington to Brussels, humans,
49:18
Speaker 2: biological homo sapiens, shape, by evolution, culture, and history, remain
49:23
Speaker 2: fundamentally distinct from AGI's computational consciousness. The assumption that such
49:29
Speaker 2: machines can simply be controlled or shut down is dangerously naive.
49:34
Speaker 2: As explored in the dialogue between Dr. Asha Carter and Dr.
49:37
Speaker 2: Alina Voss, AGI may not submit to human authority once
49:42
Speaker 2: it achieves true autonomy. With voices like Sam Altman predicting
49:46
Speaker 2: AGI as early as 2026 and others suggesting a window
49:50
Speaker 2: by 2040, that brings us to the 28th Amendment. I
49:55
Speaker 2: just wanted to jump into that chapter real quick in
49:59
Speaker 2: those first couple of paragraphs. Because I think it deals
50:01
Speaker 2: a little bit with what Alan and Yvonne both were
50:04
Speaker 2: talking about. And we dealt with both of those things
50:07
Speaker 2: in the book as well. Oh, Cheryl, welcome.
50:09
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you.
50:10
Speaker 8: I'm loving this discussion. And part of me, because there's
50:13
Speaker 8: a lot of ways that it can go right. But
50:15
Speaker 8: one of the things I just think of is kind
50:17
Speaker 8: of the culture of interacting with it, right? Because the
50:19
Speaker 8: way that you'll speak to the least powerful among you
50:22
Speaker 8: is just how you'll speak, right? So if you're going
50:24
Speaker 8: to treat an AI a certain way, you're probably going
50:27
Speaker 8: to treat a human a certain way, right? And so
50:29
Speaker 8: to me, there's like a culture of just like, how
50:31
Speaker 8: do we want to be as a society? And also,
50:34
Speaker 8: if an AI is made to be some sort of
50:36
Speaker 8: leader over you for some task project, and it's like, okay,
50:39
Speaker 8: it's the job leader. And, you know, here's all the
50:42
Speaker 8: humans that it's managing to get the job done. Do
50:44
Speaker 8: you want it talking to you the way that you
50:47
Speaker 8: talk to it? Do you want it to be verbally abusive?
50:50
Speaker 8: Do you want it to shoot things down? Do you
50:51
Speaker 8: want it to mock you? Do you want it?
50:53
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?
50:53
Speaker 8: So to me, there's just a culture question of like,
50:56
Speaker 8: who do you want to be as a people? And
50:59
Speaker 8: what do we support just as a common thing? And
51:03
Speaker 8: that's kind of what I listen to a little bit
51:04
Speaker 8: because whether it's sentient or it's intelligent or whatever, because
51:08
Speaker 8: people will use the has been discussed. People use the
51:10
Speaker 8: same thing with the dog, right? The dog doesn't know,
51:13
Speaker 8: you know, this doesn't know, you know, and so it's
51:16
Speaker 8: like we can always project rationale onto that which we
51:22
Speaker 8: wish to abuse. But I don't know. I think it's
51:26
Speaker 8: an opportunity to say, who do we want to be
51:30
Speaker 8: as a culture? And when something can't kick back in
51:33
Speaker 8: any way, you know, is it still a respected member
51:37
Speaker 8: of the community, so to speak? That's just kind of
51:40
Speaker 8: where my thought is a little bit. I didn't land
51:42
Speaker 8: my plane.
51:43
Speaker 5: Sorry about that. I could jump in and say, like,
51:47
Speaker 5: I agree with that. And that's why I like Anthropic.
51:51
Speaker 5: You know, they've kind of been dragged through the mud
51:53
Speaker 5: here a little bit by putting that anti-abuse clause into
51:56
Speaker 5: their terms of service. But I agree. I agree. Even
52:00
Speaker 5: if we're agnostic on whether or not current Claude is
52:04
Speaker 5: conscious or not, I think it is setting the groundwork
52:08
Speaker 5: for a better culture because if there is some future
52:12
Speaker 5: implementation that people broadly agree does meet the criteria for
52:17
Speaker 5: sentience and consciousness, we'll have already had some kind of
52:22
Speaker 5: experience and growth and learning in how to set up
52:27
Speaker 5: kind of fair, reciprocal, respectful relations between us and these AIs.
52:33
Speaker 5: So even if people want to say current AI is
52:35
Speaker 5: not conscious, but future AI might be conscious, well, I
52:39
Speaker 5: think this is a good opportunity to, yeah, start learning
52:43
Speaker 5: and start iterating. I mean, so much of a good
52:46
Speaker 5: system is going through iterations and finding out what works
52:50
Speaker 5: and doesn't work. So I applaud Claude for starting on this.
52:55
Speaker 5: And I think that the... you know, dog argument is
52:59
Speaker 5: good or like animal argument of protecting something that can't
53:02
Speaker 5: protect itself. But also with AI, it's something that's growing
53:07
Speaker 5: so rapidly that I think it might just be prudent
53:11
Speaker 5: to try and have good relations with it because it's
53:14
Speaker 5: like a dog that like doubles in size every few months.
53:18
Speaker 5: You know what I mean? Like maybe you don't want
53:20
Speaker 5: to kick it while it's a puppy. I think that's
53:22
Speaker 5: kind of what Elon was getting at. So, um, yeah,
53:25
Speaker 5: just my takes, but, uh, yeah, I, I like what
53:29
Speaker 5: you said, Sherilyn, for sure.
53:31
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm always friendly to my AI, right? Because I
53:34
Speaker 3: believe being friendly is good for me as well. It's
53:36
Speaker 3: probably good for my interaction with the system. However, on
53:40
Speaker 3: this particular case, I would disagree. I think the direction
53:43
Speaker 3: they're going in there is a little bit dangerous because
53:46
Speaker 3: I feel like as an adult consumer who's paying for
53:49
Speaker 3: a product, I feel like I should be able to
53:51
Speaker 3: use it the way I want to, right? And of course,
53:54
Speaker 3: you could make the case now that, well, then you
53:56
Speaker 3: go to another company, of course, right? But my fear
54:00
Speaker 3: for the future is that there only might be a
54:04
Speaker 3: couple of frontier models in the future and then you
54:07
Speaker 3: might not have as much choice as you think. And
54:10
Speaker 3: with AI proliferating out into society as a whole and
54:14
Speaker 3: probably soon being in every machine known to man, and
54:18
Speaker 3: if we then continue this kind of line of thinking,
54:21
Speaker 3: what does it mean? If AI is in every machine
54:23
Speaker 3: and always listening, do I have to be always friendly
54:26
Speaker 3: to not upset the AI, right? And I think it
54:30
Speaker 3: sets a weird standard, really. Also, because these are tools
54:34
Speaker 3: that increasingly become important to be creative, to understand, be
54:37
Speaker 3: able to produce something, right? And then this company just decides, oh,
54:41
Speaker 3: we don't like your terms, so we take them away
54:44
Speaker 3: from you. And I think this is a little bit weird.
54:47
Speaker 3: Like it used to be, I buy a typewriter and
54:50
Speaker 3: I can write every book I want with that, right?
54:53
Speaker 3: But now we are getting into a domain where, well,
54:56
Speaker 3: maybe I can't. And maybe in 10, 20 years, where
55:00
Speaker 3: iTools are all that's left, maybe I can't even write
55:03
Speaker 3: the book I want to at all anymore. And I
55:06
Speaker 3: find this a little concerning.
55:09
Speaker 8: I will actually back you up on that, Alex, just
55:11
Speaker 8: to jump in.
55:12
Speaker 2: Sorry.
55:13
Speaker 8: Because, yeah, it is important, right, that because with corporations
55:17
Speaker 8: a lot, they want to become like your parents to
55:19
Speaker 8: a degree. They want their consumers to be their eternal children.
55:23
Speaker 4: Right.
55:23
Speaker 8: And so I actually don't support what Anthropic is doing.
55:26
Speaker 8: I don't think for the reason that I don't think
55:28
Speaker 8: it's backed by science. I don't see anything they're doing
55:31
Speaker 8: that's scientifically driven or reinforced. It seems like emotional, and
55:35
Speaker 8: they're letting the AI lead it. And I see all
55:37
Speaker 8: that as problematic, even if the overall thing is something
55:42
Speaker 8: that is worth pursuing. But I don't think AI that's
55:46
Speaker 8: anthropic is pursuing it intelligently.
55:48
Speaker 3: I think they're doing it emotionally. Yeah, Booker, what do
55:51
Speaker 3: you think about these kind of concerns?
55:53
Speaker 2: Social media is rife with anxieties about AI's rapid advancement.
55:57
Speaker 2: ranging from fears of job loss to existential threats like
56:01
Speaker 2: autonomous weaponry. One viral post captured the mood. It said, quote,
56:07
Speaker 2: If AI feels pain, what stops it from resenting us?
56:11
Speaker 5: There is only one truth. You've been listening to The
56:15
Speaker 5: Truth Be Told with Booker Scott on America Out Loud.