Latest / The Pluralist Podcast - with Orly Erez-Likhovski and Rabbi Josh Weinberg / Why Were Rabbis Detained While Harvesting Olives in the West Bank? Rabbi Joel Mosbacher
Transcript
- speaker-2: I would like you to share a little bit of what you think about Israel. where does it fit into your bigger perspective on Israel and how do you use this as an expression of that support of Israel I was raised by rabbis like Rabbi Mike Weinberg, who I'm not just saying that because his son is here, to to believe that if you love someone it doesn't mean you agree with them all the time. Sometimes I do premarital counseling and occasionally a couple will say they never argue and I always think, I don't always say, either you're lying to yourself or you're lying to me. disagreeing with someone else doesn't mean you don't love them, and disagreeing with the place that you live doesn't mean you don't love them. I'm often critical of the place where I live, and it's not because I hate America. It's because I want America to live up to the best of its own aspired you know and stated ideals. And I feel the same way about Israel. I I am a I I've increasingly described myself as a heartbroken Zionist. and hearts don't fix themselves. They don't, you know. you know you have to be engaged in the work of of you know trying to make yourself better and working to make the other partner better. And so I am proud to care about this place and want it to be the best kind of place that it that it is. And the and the red line for me is if someone denies the Jewish people the right to self determination in their ancestral homeland, which isn't to the exclusion of other people having claims to this place. It's really hard to figure out how that's going to happen. But it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive unless we decide that it's going to be mutually exclusive exclusive. And so that's, you know, that's, you know, in a in a word, kind of what my what my belief and love and aspiration for this place is and whatever I can do from 6,000 miles away and sometimes from right in Jerusalem to be a part of helping Israel to be the kind of place that that I want it to be and long for it to be, that's what it looks like. And I want to work with anybody who who, Who has a different perspective than you on anything. And my answer to that question is we need to work with people who we sometimes disagree with fundamentally about certain things, but we agree with them about other things. I'm not a person who believes that I, you know, that I want to have, you know, I could be just be ideologically pure on any issue and be very ideologically pure and very lonely. That's not what I think we should do. So we were talking about politicians earlier who I disagree with about some. things but I agree with them about other things and I'm willing to work with them on the things that we agree with. And it's hard for me if a politician doesn't doesn't believe like to believe or or allow for the possibility that Jews d deserve to have the right to self determination on their ancestral homeland. So that's that is I don't have very many red lines in my life, honestly. I honestly actually don't, but that that's that's one of them. And so it doesn't mean I don't stay in relationship with those politicians. It doesn't mean I cut off because they have power. They have power to do the things that I want them to do. And they may not do all of the things I want them to do, but I'm going to stay in a relationship because pretending like they don't exist, or standing outside of a building and yelling at the bricks that of a building that they might or might not be in, or disconnecting and thinking that I, you know, that that that because I disagree with them about Israel Palestine means that I can't engage with them on you know anything else. I think is short-sighted and not good for. For the Jewish people either. and it means that we can be in real relationship and maybe I can move them or maybe they can move me or maybe not, speaker-0: that's amazing. And so Iraq made the strategic choice to change the name of the center to not be Mirkaza Pluralism, okay, in Hebrew. but the Iraq newsletter is called the Pluralist the Pluralist. speaker-1: We changed our name in about 2012 to in Hebrew it's the Reform Center for a Logit State to just tell people what we are doing and that we are part of the reform movement very unapologetically. but yeah, my my newsletter is called the Plur List it's a weekly newsletter, so you'll welcome to sign up and then speaker-0: But you can read it more than once a week if you want. Yeah. Yeah, speaker-1: Then we have the speaker-0: and so I had been playing around with the notion of doing a podcast. I wanted the model to be really How do we compare and contrast our shared experience from the two largest Jewish communities in the world, the North America and Israel? and especially I felt like, first of all, we love we Jewish educators, rabbis, we we love paradigm shifts. I mean, we just paradigms are shifting all the time and it's great. but the I think that there is a paradigm shift in terms of the Israel diaspora relationship. And it's n you know, it used to be the model of there's like a Kadaam's model like a think of like a bicycle wheel with the spiritual center in the middle and spokes going out to the far flung right? And there could be a different model in which there's like an even exchange. And what do we have to learn from each other's experience? we started doing ours and really trying to look at the perspectives from both sides of the ocean and and what does it look like. and so we've been having now about ten months of conversation. December. In December, yeah, yeah. speaker-1: Last year we started at the consultation of country. speaker-0: ten months of you know, conversations with different people. Sometimes it's just the two of us and sometimes we would bring in guests. leaders and people who are doing interesting things and have sometimes it's timely based on like what's going on in the year and the news We're gonna do a live podcast on Wednesday, right after the elections to talk about that. Nathanael speaker-1: With the FNAW en la pit now. speaker-0: Nathanael, who's speaker-1: But we we decided to be spontaneous and we thought that we have to talk about what happened yesterday. and this is we were so lucky to have Joel here with us and we're so happy that you're here with us. Okay, so I'm starting officially. Welcome back to the Pluralist Podcast from both sides of the ocean. I'm Oli Elzdykovsky, Executive Director of the Israel Villages Action Center. Hey Josh. speaker-0: Hi, Orley. I'm Rabbi Josh Weinberg, Vice President for Israel and Reformed Zionism for the URJ and the Director of Arts and we are here live in Jerusalem. speaker-1: Israel with Josh coming to vote in the elections next. speaker-0: To vote. Just got off the plane a few hours ago and not only are we here in our office, we have a wonderful guest which we'll introduce in a second, but we also are blessed to be joined by students of the Hebrew Union College, Jewish Institute of Religion. First year students who are rabbinical cantorial and I hope we'll have lots to say and including our own IRAC and INPJ staff and Rabbi Liz Hirsch here for the CEO of WRJ. so it's a real exciting opportunity. And speaker-1: It's spontaneous decision to record this because a really concerning thing happened yesterday. as we are recording today on Thursday, yesterday on Wednesday. you know, we are in the olive harvest season in the West Bank. I've actually written about this in my newsletter last week and I'm about to join an olive harvest tomorrow. but yesterday there was a very rare occurrence where a large group of activists and and rabbis, including our own very own guest, Rabbi Joel Mosbacher, were detained while picking holes, coming and showing solidarity with the Palestinian farmers and were held in custody for very, very, very long hours. and it was really like for me, it was not only outrageous, but I I could really I was actually spending time in the Supreme Court waiting for a petition of ours to be heard and I just couldn't concentrate thinking about our dear friends being held in custody just wanting to come and show up for our values so speaker-0: Values. And and let's just add a little a layer of background onto this that not only is it the olive harvest season, which takes place, generally in Kheshvan leading up to Kislev, to Hanukkah, it's also just, you know, a number of days before the Israeli elections, which we waited four long years, a rarity in Israeli society to fulfill, you know, the full term. And I feel like there's a lot of tension here, you know, just just arriving here today, but you having been back and forth this summer, and I think it's also important to To say that over the past few weeks, months, even years, the growing violence that we're seeing from Jewish extremists, dare I say Jewish terrorists in the West Bank and throughout Jude and Samaria, depending on how you call, you know, what terms choose to use, has led hyper focus, you know, even being condemned by those who, you know, are in the center right mainstream, if we can call them such. And I think from the view from North America, there's been a a a big focus on this to say now h how can that be and how how is it not curbed by now and how come the whether it's the border patrol or the police or the army or anyone sort of unable to do anything about it. And so I just want to like paint that picture leading up to the Olive Harvest. So first of all, Joel, welcome. Thank you very much. can we give your brief bio and just say like you know in addition to being the senior rabbi of Temple Shah Rethila on the upper east side, why don't you fill it in a little bit more talk about your activism leading up to leading up to today. speaker-2: Sure. So I am proud to be the senior abbe Temple Shari Tefila in Manhattan. I'm a product of the reform movement on Sangrubi in Akonamak, Wisconsin, the other Holy Land. And speaker-0: The Midwest is what you call it. speaker-2: Jerusalem of the Midwest, exactly. And was raised largely by rabbis who who taught me with word but mostly with deed that Jewish life is meant to be lived in the world and not just in the synagogue. And you know that if my congregation is tired of hearing me say that if if we're if the Torah that we learn there is gonna stay there, we should just close the building and open the world's largest Starbucks or or something like that. that it's like not meant to stay there and so that's in like my Jewish DNA. And so it's always been a part of my work. I'm very involved in faith-based community organizing in New York City. And when I got sort of the call from Trua and speaker-0: History also with really focusing on gun violence protection. speaker-2: That's right. That's right. Yeah. Unfortunately I have a personal story where my father was murdered at his place of business in nineteen ninety nine. for a long time I was not an activist on that issue. I was in therapy and dealing with trials and trying to live you know, one step at a time, helped my mom put one foot in front of the other, she's doing well and and everything else and helped in twenty twelve after you know the the terrible shooting in In Connecticut, helped form a national gun violence prevention campaign called Do Not Stand Idly By, which is focused on using the massive purchasing power of police and the military to use that purchasing power to press gun manufacturers directly to to control gun trafficking and to innovate in gun safety. So so that's some of the work I've been involved in, but I care a lot about this holy land of ours and so receive. this call from from Trua, which is an extraordinary organization in the United States, the Rabbis for Human Rights organization in the United States to come and and help here during the Olive Harvest and that's that's what I came to do. I came last Shabbat and and so I can say more about that kind of hold we'll hold me up to it. speaker-1: And and you did you know, you you visited the West Bank a few times this week already and it started with the olive harvest and the first few days were very quiet and very pastoral. I followed you on Facebook like this beautiful photos. speaker-2: Yes, exactly. We started actually on Sunday, actually, and that was a day of training. It was a day of preparation, context setting. Why are we here? What are we doing here? Why is this important? Why is this a Jewish value? Why is this for people who care about this place? Why is this a Zion? speaker-1: Is this just a group of rabbis or also active? speaker-2: No other were in our cohort this week, and there are cohorts similarly scheduled to come over the next few weeks, was a total of about eighty people, about half Israelis. The bulk of the rest were I think forty, not quite forty Americans and Canadians and Germans and Hang Hungarian person. so it was a mixed speaker-1: British. speaker-2: British. Exactly. I'm sorry, I wouldn't shouldn't leave them out. speaker-0: All Jewish or not? speaker-2: not all Jewish, mostly Jewish, but not all Jewish. and we started on Sunday with a day of training to prepare, to understand kind of where we are and what we're doing, to talk about the principles of nonviolence, and sort of frankly to talk through worst case scenarios about what might happen when we were out in the field to talk about how to talk about this story in the media. So that was a day of preparation and then Monday and Tuesday we actually ended up going to the same field. And in our faith-based community organizing work, we talk a lot about the world as it is and the world as it should be. And in the world as it should be, we wouldn't have been in the field on Monday or Tuesday because Palestinians would be able to pick their own olives without harassment. And there was something about Monday and Tuesday that felt a a little bit like the world as it should be, where Palestinians and Israelis and Jews from around the world and non-Jews were together in the field harvesting perfectly beautiful weather. So peaceful, so beautiful. And speaker-1: Must too good to be true. speaker-2: it was almost too good to be true. speaker-1: And we should mention I think Josh you gave an introduction about the growing settler violence and it has been going on for quite a while but over I mean the harvest season is always the most violent also in recent years and especially this year. So the harvest season just began, but we've already ha seen hundreds and hundreds of events of violence against Palestinians and against activists who come to assist Palestinians with the harvest. So this is something that has even grown and become more and more dangerous over the last few weeks. it seems that the situation in the West Bank is almost spun out of control. So it seems that it's not being answered as it should be either by the IDF nor by the police. And that's why we see so much violence that is not being treated. And I should say that while for a man long time it seems that it's not being reported on Israeli media and it's not being on the minds of Israelis, this has started to change over the last few weeks because the situation has deteriorated so much and it's being more reported, more people talk. speaker-0: even last week on the, well watched Friday night news, the main the Maduro Merkazique, like I you like the the the main news program on Friday night where, you know Donnie Kushmawa, the host, just threw up his hands and said, where's the police? Where's the enforcement? how how can this be? if they were English speakers, they would have called it the Wild, Wild West Bank. but Orly, just give a little bit of a context if you would just what what is their goal? The ones who are committing violence, the ones who are sanctioning violence, and then I want to add a a halakhic piece that took place this week that I think is important to mention as well. Yeah. speaker-1: So, it's well the goal is is you know basically to to expel the Palestinians from their homes and to get gain control over more and more territories. the Jewish terrorists who are doing this started to do is in area C and which is in control of Israeli control and then moved to area B and even to area A which is in control controlled by the Palestinian Authority because they speaker-0: We understand areas A, B, and C we've done that. Okay, great. speaker-1: Because their general aim is to push Palestinians as much as they can from all areas, and they have become more and more how do you say no Azim? speaker-0: Daring are they? speaker-1: Daring, so they really and why do they do it? Because they carry there there's no consequences, right? So they're un whatever they're doing, what what viol whatever violence they're doing, it carries no consequences and basically it's not only we see it not only as a terrible, you know, whatever they're doing is morally wrong, but it's also just shows a complete lack of disregard of the law, right? Rule of law. There is no rule of law in the West Bank and by the way it penetrates Israel. We're seeing a lot of phenomena within Israel about the We saw it with the current government that has tried to weaken all you know institutions that restrict the power of the government because they wanted to be above the law. So we're seeing all those phenomena trickle trickling into Israel and this is another implication, a consequence that we're seeing that is very, very dangerous to Israel as a Jewish and democratic state. speaker-0: Now and I think just to build on that, part of the national religious movement or what we call the tsunuta datit, there's always been that tension of who has the ultimate authority over me? Is it the government or is it the rabbanim? You is is is it the rabbis? There was a famous movie made about this in the late nineties called Hesder, you know, about religious soldiers, would they have to listen to their rabbis or to their army commanders, for instance, okay? And that's that's a tension. So if or you're pointing to a total disregard for the law of the state speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-0: i in even though they're living outside the formal boundaries of the state of Israel in what would call you know disputatory or occupied territory territory, they are still Israeli citizens who are under Israeli law. Under Israeli law. There's also a big question of Jewish law. If the these are people who claim to be, you know, halachically abiding Jews, okay, then we're seeing them do, you know, carry out this kind of violence on Shabbat, and forget about like speaker-1: And complete. speaker-0: And so just to say, well wait a second, are you not bound by the same Torah that the rest of us are bound by? And here's here's a fascinating thing that happened. I I think it's terrible. So one of the main leading spiritual figures of the sort of radical settler movement is a rabbi called Dauvlior. Rav Dauvlior, you may have heard his name. speaker-1: He's the rabbi that Bangvir followed. speaker-0: Right, right. Ben Vir you know, also also inspired by him. there's a group of rabbis that you know in some of the Shivot there. but he made a a Halachic ruling the other day that essentially said that it is permissible to steal Palestinian olives. Like wait wait a minute. Lottignov. speaker-2: Pretty pretty speaker-0: Pretty clear, okay, right? and you get into the difference between Gnevah and Gzelah, and like, you there's all these halakhic ramifications, you know, fine. He said no. As long as it's okay, you're stealing from Palestinians in order to intimidate them, in order to, you know, whatever pr lead to expelling, eventually annexation, that it's mutar, right? It is permissible to to steal to to steal their property, which not only ours, but also like cattle, sheep, that, serious things that have impact on their livelihood. that is the main thing. And so how do we how do we wrap our heads around this? And like it's so interesting because, you know, when Palestinians see a Jew with a kippah on, that is a symbol that they are a settler and it is y the the there could be a conflict there. Yeah. We were speaker-2: We'll speaker-0: how how do you feel about that? how how d yeah, what were you told in terms of going there and and and what your external presentation looked like? speaker-2: Yeah, in that regard, in part of the training we were talking to that exact point and the the invitation was to for people who wear a keepot like me to wear a hat. and and I just No, speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-2: I wore a keepoth. But I also had my White Sox hat. speaker-1: I think it's really speaker-0: Sorry about that. speaker-1: No, I th I think it's really a tragedy, right? That Judaism has been kidnapped by those forces who are using it to incite hatred and to justify violence. And it's it's worth mentioning that the people on the ground who are carrying out the violent attacks, right? the Jewish terrorists in the West Bank, they're numbered about one thousand people, maybe two thousand. I mean that's the number, okay? The problem is that nobody is doing anything about that and unfortunately there are not enough condemnation within The Sethor society. So in response to Daublio's statement, we saw some rabbis of religious Zionism said this is not okay, this is not allowed under Judaism. Of course, the reform movement has also published a public statement saying this is immoral, not un Jewish and undemocratic. So we're seeing some condemnation, but it's not enough. So it's being speaker-0: end up not being the post scheme for many of the settler movies. speaker-2: And I and I wanna in a way, far be it from me to try and teach you either about Israel or about law, but I would say that there is a rule of law in the West Bank right now. It's a it's an upside down rule of law. And so that by that I mean and I know that you know that you would agree, that all of so many of these incidents that we are hearing about, settlers come to harass or throw rocks or worse at people who at Palestinians who are harvesting their fields. The IDF or the police show up and protect the settlers. Right? They will not intervene at all. They're standing maybe there's so many pictures of them standing right there with the settlers who with their rocks in their hands. But the moment that a Palestinian approaches or yells back or anything else, then there i there is a law. The law is speaker-1: That's a mode of operation that the Jewish tourists in the West Bank developed. It's called initiating how do you say khikuch? Conflict. speaker-0: Friction. speaker-1: Ex exactly initiating friction and the idea is to make the Palestinians protect themselves and then the IDF, you know, arrest them, right? So the arrest them is right the best scenario, right? So they're you know intentionally working this way and they get what they want, right? I mean it's unbelievable. So maybe we get into what happened in speaker-0: Yeah, so tell the tell the rest the story. So you went out speaker-1: We had a few quiet days and then yesterday we speaker-2: And yesterday we went out to an area that is, I'm told, an area C, right? to be clear, we are in these fields because Palestinian families have invited us to come there. We're not just showing up. So, Rabbis for Human Rights, which is the umbrella organization that is doing this Protect the Harvest work, has built relationships over years, over long years with Palestinian farmers, and we're there at their invitation. So about 80 of us cesterday morning. I think we arrived about nine o'clock in the morning, which was kind of a little bit of a later start. Start. And we took our tarps to put on the ground underneath the olive trees and our rakes to pull down all this from the bran upper branches and ladders and such, and our tools, and we start harvesting. We were I lost track of time. I didn't wasn't wearing my watch. again the first few days were just so idyllic. but I'm told that after about an hour and a half, first so we were working on a a terraced side of a of a hill and there was a there's a a settlement up at the top of the hill. speaker-1: Like an outpost. speaker-2: An outpost, exactly. And there's a road in front of there that's right over the terrace. And first we see cars from the settlement security. And we're working and we're working. And I don't know which one came next, but right after that was a car from the police and a car from the IDF. So we're all seeing this happen. We're just harvesting and harvesting the training that we did. Part of it was just to keep going. We're there to harvest olives. That's what we're there to do. And we're going to do that until we're told not to. So another half an hour goes by and all of a sudden one of our organizers comes up and says, keep harvesting, like that. And we're like, okay, well you know what that means. Is that the IDF has shown up and they're negotiating. And the whole strategy that we have is we're not doing the talking to the IDF. We were taught not to engage with the IDF or with settlers. The organizers who have lots of experience are doing this. So we knew what that meant was that probably the IDF had shown up and are, you know, there are laws, there are rules about what the IDF has to do if in order to Call something a closed military zone, you would know much more about this than I do, but they have to show that they have an order to close the area. They have to show a map that and often what happens we're told is they'll show an order and then they'll show a map, and the organizers will say, that's actually over there. So you can't stop us here. So partially it's clarity, but really it's also a stall tactic. We're trying to harvest as many. And we've been told as soon as our organizers tell us to leave. We're gonna leave. We're not confronting, we're not yelling back, we're not looking for that kind of we're doing what the Palestinian farmers have invited us to do, and we're gonna do exactly what the IDF tells us to do. So after a while, maybe another half an hour or so. some of the organizers come up and they say, okay, we're gonna gather all up all of the olives and all of the gear and we're gonna come down to the road because we've been asked to leave. And we want the Israelis to be sort of in the front of the line and all the then international people behind them and Palestinians third because we we've been led to understand that that's the order of kind of risk. so we go down to the road where our vehicles are. Actually, not where our vehicles are, there's a bunch of police vehicles and also a Palestinian truck there to gather up the olives. And we're sort of folding up gear, and we can see that a little bit further down the road, our organizers are are there with a combination of IDF soldiers, police, and a guy in a cowboy hat that, you know, one of our Israeli friends made it clear that that was the settlement. speaker-1: We we should mention that basically it's the the division of authority between the police and the IDF is that the police are in charge of the settlers because the settlers are under Israeli law and the IDF is in charge of the Palestinians. So speaker-2: Thank you for that clarity. And by the way, drones are going over as well. So we're kind of watching this unfold, and then we can see, and we're sort of the line is we're passing the line is getting the words getting passed back, that the IDF is has asked all the Israelis to take their ID cards out. And and the police are taking pictures of all of their IDs, and we're like folding up the tarps and kind of watching this happen. And then And the the the the police create a gauntlet. So the Israelis are on one side, they show their ideas, pictures are taken, and then they go to the other side. So we watch this happen and then we understand that the same thing's gonna happen with us. So we all had our passports with us, and we kind of walk up in turn to police officers and they take photos of our passports, and then we kind of go to the other side. We don't know how common this behavior is. We're led to believe later that that's pretty unusual. Being asked to leave, Very common. The idea that they're taking pictures of everybody's IDs and passports, less common. So then we're done, we're kind of all going through and just like what's going on here? And then we're sort of walked it was kind of a long way back down to the road where we had come. And we think okay, we're gonna walk back, but we're we're accompanied the whole way back down long kind of pathway down to the street and we're like we end up like several hundred yards farther down the road than where we had gotten out of the van. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-2: Long procession of people accompanied by police and IDF and drones. And we get down to the street and we start to turn right. There's a whole phalanx of military people like making sure that we don't go that way. We're like gonna go so we're like, okay, so we're done, we're gonna walk back to our butt. We don't seem to be done because the police and and the IDF are with us. And then we can see, okay, there's our vans down there, like maybe another hundred yards down the road, there's our vans. We're like, okay, that was we knew that might happen. Like that we were sort of all like this is what yeah what might happen. So we think we're gonna go to our vans and go back to where we're staying and instead, like just short of our vans, there's like a little runoff kind of off of the road and another phalanx of IDF and police and they kind of shunt us off the road to stand on the side, all of us all together. We're like, what's going on? And the next thing that happens is then on the same road we'd just been walking on this huge police bus pulls up. And speaker-1: Out of nowhere. w it wasn't around the corner. They had to ask it to come. speaker-2: Yes, and we weren't in the middle of a city somewhere, right? So and then it becomes clear the first message is that all of the international people are gonna be asked to board this bus. speaker-1: So they separated you from those rallies? Yeah. speaker-2: Yes, exactly. And we didn't actually initially we thought only we were the ones were detained. We only learned later that the Israelis were also detained. So now we're getting really nervous and worried and did speaker-1: Did they explain to you anything at all? speaker-2: not explain anything. apparently we learned also that the rule is that they were actually supposed to show all each and every one of us this map in this order, which they never did. So but I don't think speaker-0: Over what areas are restricted. speaker-2: Exactly, not just organizer. So there's all kinds of but don't bother speaker-1: Sort the reasoning is that you were you were inside a closed military. They speaker-2: We were not told anything. speaker-1: didn't say that. Not at all. speaker-2: Just this is what you're gonna do now. You're getting on the bus. speaker-1: So we're on the bus. speaker-2: And we're getting on the bus and then we drive for a while and then I'm told later I didn't know where I was exactly. We're in the police station in Baytar Elite. And we get out of the bus. speaker-0: say about Biktar. Yeah that it is actually technically the largest settlement in in the West Bank and it's a it's a Haredi settlement. speaker-1: Listen. speaker-0: Yeah. The Irhatorava Hasidutil Haredi Hut there you were. speaker-2: Cool. Good to know. All the Torah was being done. So we speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-2: get to the police station, we're on the bus for a little while. We're with actually a candidate for Congress, Brad Lander, a Democratic candidate for Congress. And he's there with us. He's there with us all week. He's not there just for show. He's picking olives. Actually, he was particularly enjoying climbing the trees, which he said he hadn't done since he was 10 years old. It's great. And initially, I can tell a longer, shorter story. You can interrupt me anytime. Okay, so Brad Lander, they they they get first get on the bus. We're at the police station, they're like, where's the congressman? Brad Lander gets off, and we're sort of like joking. We're free Brad Lander. I don't know. This we're all really nervous. What do you say? What you do? He's been great. And he gets off the bus and we're We're just waiting there and I don't know, five minutes later he gets back on the bus and we're like, what happened? They said he said, Well, they asked me, Are you already elected? And he said no. And they said, Well get the less interesting. So speaker-0: No, yeah. You're less interesting. speaker-2: anyway, eventually they start taking us off the bus in groups. We go in sort of to the police station. speaker-1: You should mention that you were taken from the bus pretty quickly the Israelis were held on the bus for hours. I speaker-2: We didn't and we didn't know. speaker-1: didn't know, right? I was in touch with yeah with them. Yeah. For hours speaker-2: Interesting. speaker-1: and hours with no, access to restroom and whatever. speaker-2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So gradually we're starting to be taken the the n internationals are taken into the into the police station and they give us big garbage bags to put all our stuff in, but they don't take anything away. They don't really particularly look in They didn't speaker-1: So they didn't take your phones? speaker-2: take our phones. Initially when we were once we were in this big holding area, they're like, please put your phones away. But then gradually people were like, This you know, on the side with their phones and then eventually we were all on our phones and they never That was surprising. So that's how you were hearing from all of us inside And then we're there for eight hours. And and actually the last people. We're there for la the eight hours. And eventually at the end, when we're let free, I think we all thought we were all out. But it turned out there were five more people. The last person was let out at twelve thirty this morning, so that's like thirteen hours later. speaker-1: and were you interrogated? speaker-2: So I was never interrogated. It was very chaotic. my kids joke that they they told me this morning they thought, you know, they're like they always knew I would be arrested someday, but they never thought it would be the first time in Israel. So I guess it was a kind of a shah for speaker-0: Yeah, they're doing it. speaker-2: olive picking for the crime of picking olives. It was very chaotic, but what do I know? I've never been arrested before. I've never been arrested with eighty other people. And apparently they may have not arrested eighty people before in the past. speaker-0: This is not a well thought out plan on their end also. speaker-2: So, speaker-1: Which raises the question, how did it happen? speaker-2: How did it happen and what were they thinking? And what was the strategy? Whose call was it? And everything else. as as the hours are going on, we're like trying to understand what's going on. Initially they asked, they say we need to fingerprint you all, and they ask, they just like say, Can we get like five people? Like they point to five people and they say, Come over there. speaker-1: Like grand. speaker-2: But then that doesn't keep happening. Okay. Then time goes by and Then I think the next sort of moment of of like the story is a a lawyer from the Human Rights Defenders Fund, Alone Shapira speaker-1: Sapia, sapeva. speaker-2: comes in and we knew this, we were told in the training this would happen that a lawyer would come and meet with us. in the United States you're entitled to have a lawyer with you when you're interrogated, not in Israel. You're entitled to meet with your lawyer before you're interrogated. So we understood all of this and alone. comes in and gathers all of us around and we're all really anxious and he basically says, I'm gonna start with the end. The end is you're almost certainly going to be deported. Yeah. Because that's what happens. And speaker-0: There's a precedent for that, right? Yeah. speaker-1: Yes. And and this was really our concern. speaker-2: Yes, and also that the speaker-0: But speaker-2: minimum would be that you would be banned from coming speaker-1: Right. You would be a restraining order. speaker-2: back to Israel for a minimum of ten years. Wow. So in a way, personally speaker-0: Wh which we know has happened to younger activists who are in smaller groups. speaker-2: That's their experience. speaker-0: we're talking about speaker-1: So and we should we should say that the process is putting you in a cell in in the airport waiting to be deported and then not allowed to be back in Israel for ten years. Just think about it and this was really our concern yesterday the whole day. speaker-2: Once once once we were there that was our concern as well. Again, I wanna be clear now and later that we are not the victims in this story. The Palestinians are the people who are living this life. So even as I'm feeling my emotion arising of the The anxiety of yesterday. It's not it's not a that's this is not a story that's about us. It's just not. speaker-1: But you can really amplify the issue the way they don't, unfortunately, right? And this is why it is important. Because you get the attention of the media speaker-2: I hear that. speaker-1: of the story, which unfortunately goes unnoticed otherwise. I mean speaker-0: Which is what we wanna do is amplify this story. speaker-2: The rest of the thing was just continue to be chaotic. The the police while we're being, you know, advised by our lawyer, the police keep knocking on the door and saying, We need two people and he's like we've told them that I mean if you start interviewing them, interrogating them, they're gonna say to you, I need to t I haven't been advised by my lawyer. So there's like chaos with the way they're handling the situation. speaker-0: And just tell us w what are you guys doing while you're hanging out and waiting. So I understand and there was like speaker-2: Actually there was. Yeah that's speaker-1: Yeah, so many rabbi is hanging on. speaker-2: a bunch of rabbis were singing Nigunim speaker-0: And you're sitting there. speaker-2: or taking turns teaching Torah. Wow. and sort of trying to give each other speaker-1: What did what do you sing? Like Ozean Zimatiana? speaker-2: Ozeev is Imratya and Olam Chesedibaneh and Ose Shalom Bim Ramav and Gesher Tsar Ma'od and Meanwhile we're teaching a a passage a passage from from Breshit Rabbah from the Midrash on this week's Torah portion about about a castle in flames and who is the owner of the castle. speaker-0: Yeah, do I can speaker-2: and so Yes, that's all happening while we're just trying to wait and see. It's so funny, people from the outside are t messaging us like, Have you did you? And we're like, You don't we don't know what's going on over in this room. We don't know what's happening. eventually they like ask for seven volunteers to be the first people to be interrogated. And they go and they actually at some point they took I think those first five people that fit got fingerprinted, then they took them back out to the bus. 'Cause I think what must have happened was they thought they were gonna take us all through and then they were gonna immediately take us to the airport. But clearly things were being interrupted or pressure was happening. We were told by the lawyer that we were that the charge was going to be disturbing the peace, basically. And he told us that because we're not Israeli citizens, we are not entitled to be here. Like we're we are we are here at the privilege of the government and it can withdraw that. And so the fact that we are accused of disturbing the peace is enough to deport us. speaker-1: Then yeah, it has to be said that the the jurisdiction lies with the principal or the manager of the population authority, right? So he has the authority to decide to report you. It can't be challenged, right, on a legal basis through a legal process, but that's his authority and he has speaker-0: and I wanna I wanna push on that because we just from our side while this is going on, and here I'll give a lot of credit to Rabbi Rick Jacobs who, you know and and Jacob Lumenthal from the Conservative Movement also started getting on the phone with the United States, the Israeli ambassador to the United States, with President Busy Herzog, with Doron Al Mog from the Jewish Agency. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: But but the response that we were getting from them is to say, look, you know, this is they they made their own bed essentially because they entered into restricted l you know territory that they weren't supposed to be there and they didn't coordinate with the army and so how do we balance those two different accounts and then I won't ask another speaker-2: So this we're told that disturbing the peace is going to be first of all I want I wanna along those lines I just wanna say in the room we're all because we have our phones we are feeling the support of people outside of that room. Friends, family. you know, we're connecting with people like Orley and speaker-1: And Anna, we should say that Anna Kislanski, the CO of the INT we speaker-2: Okay. speaker-1: published very quickly a public statement that went on Israeli media. speaker-2: So we never felt we never felt alone. And so so our attorney tells us this is the you know this is gonna be the charge. And if they assert any other charge, you need to say I need to talk to my lawyer. And then they get the first seven people out, I guess, just volunteers, like we're gonna need all of you, so seven people in a row. About 15 minutes later he comes back and he says, Well, they've added more charges. you know, you entered restricted mil closed military zone, which is I don't know if I can swear on this podcast, it's wrong because it wasn't closed until two hours after we got speaker-0: It's nonsense, right? speaker-2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we are gonna be charged with defying authority basically. I don't know, I'm sure there's a technical term for that. Which is also wrong because as tune as soon as we were told to stop harvesting, we stopped. speaker-1: You did. speaker-2: So maybe you can tell me or maybe we you know, to look for logic here. I d I don't know. Our guess, and maybe this was our wishful thinking sitting in that room, was they were starting to get more and more and more pressure. And if they were gonna deport us, they didn't want to just say, well they were disturbing the peace they need. They needed to gin up all these I don't know. anyway, time's going on. They brought us sandwiches, they brought us water, we decided to eat the Palestinian, the food that the Palestinian people had made for us that we had brought with us from our respective home stays and hotels. but as they were handing out water, another s officer is like taking video to show that we've been offered water and all that sort of thing. They they are coordinated about this. This is very, very strategic. It just goes on and on and and then eventually I wanna say it's like six o'clock or something. Then they come back and they start reading a list of names. They have a list of all of us and they're like, okay, these five people, but not so initially it's like anybody wanna come? And then it's like now they're on to a list of names. It's I like it seems chaotic. I don't know. It seems like they didn't I'm speaker-1: It's probably chaotic. I don't know. speaker-2: sure it is. They could not figure out what to do. And they all four or five I think five people go out. And then it's probably half an hour later an officer comes in and says, reads us sheet off a sheet, you're being released unconditionally and you're free to leave. speaker-1: W and what are you speaker-0: And no departition and no department. speaker-2: Deportation, exactly. No no conditions. speaker-1: Also no conditions because the Israelis were released with condition on a condition that they weren't speaker-2: Some of them. speaker-1: weren't to the West Bank either for two weeks or for thirty days. speaker-2: Right, exactly. So we're just kind of in disbelief and like we're first of all we're like we need to get out of there before they change their mind. we're gathering up all of our stuff and some of us are like we shouldn't like leave a mess. There's all this sandwich of stuff on the floor, but you know that's good, that's good. this is Midwest nice, I'm sorry Josh. speaker-0: No, yeah, the end of the day we're all, Jewish parents and speaker-2: And we're just like, can't believe this is happening, and we're crying and happy and everything else, and we're getting out of there as fast as we can. And then they put us back on that same frickin' police bus and we're like we're staying in many different places. and we don't know where they're gonna take us, and I don't even know how they decided where to take us. And when I called you last night and they dropped us off, I still don't know where we were, but we were in Jerusalem somewhere. They just dropped us off the bus and we you know, we were contact with all of our organizers. speaker-0: Keeping a reality TV show where you had navigate back to speaker-2: Yeah, exactly. And and and eventually all of our vans from our respective areas came and picked us up and then we all went speaker-1: And crosses, whatever you because it was my speaker-2: I think mostly at that moment we were just all texting and calling our loved ones and whatever else and then we realized there were those five people who were still in custody who were still in custody and we who were running out of there mostly didn't know. Rabbi Jill Jacobs, head of Trua, and our lawyer and possibly others stayed behind at the jail to find out what was happening with those five people and advocate. So it was like a slow first of all, we're about to leave and someone's like, No, there's There's these people, they're not on the bus yet. And and it it was its own version of chaos. But we're, I think we're just all as we say in the United States, beheld him, we're just all in shock, right? We're just like, what is that? And did that happen? And, you know, adrenaline both flowing, and all of a sudden I'm like, I'm really hungry. Like all the feelings are swirling, and then we get off the bus and we're just like, where are we? And yeah, the vans will be here in 45 minutes. We're like, my God, this just never gonna end. But we're starting to process and talk about it and kind of understand. We're trying to figure out what's mostly, I think most of our thoughts were like what's going on with these other five people. We hear that they're gonna be deported, that maybe there's gonna someone to make an example. In the end they're all released. Ultimately released after 1230 in the morning. speaker-1: But at the same time we should of course remember that the people who are committing the violence nothing is being done to them. A speaker-2: Sleeping well and they're speaker-1: situation where people who come to show solidarity are being detained for hours and treated like criminals while the real criminals are speaker-0: Specifically nonviolent solidarity, that's yeah, yeah, that's speaker-1: This is like for me it's like how can this happen, right? It's like tzadik viralo. speaker-2: Shall we have no idea? speaker-0: Yes, the theodicy of it is ironic. But let me let me bring it back to politics a little bit because again, we can't ignore that the elections are coming up. So so two aspects of that. And like I I'm bringing up a lot of reactions that I I've seen from posting this stuff around and from all the different social media posts that have been circulating and like Rabbis for Human Rights in Tura have been doing olive picking for e every season for for many, many years. rare is it that a well known politician with controversial views on Israel and Zionism would be part of this, okay? We did see it this summer with Representative Rokana from California who came and also got detained for a bit. How how do you respond to those who are saying that this was a political stunt from Lander? and that this was you know a way for him to you know make a big splash here and and do that. And then the flip side, you know, and Orley maybe you can speak to this, who who does this serve politically leading up to the leading up to the elections? speaker-2: So from my perspective, I'll speak only speak from my perspective. I don't agree with everything that Brad Lander stands for. The election speaker-0: We'll just say Bradlander just maybe give a little bit of speaker-2: is next week. speaker-0: Also my district. speaker-2: Right. And and and it's a s safely democratic district, which is probably the only reason why he could possibly go away for a week the week before speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: but speaker-2: Here's speaker-0: but just in his primary race, it felt like the number one issue was Israel. Yes. And who speaker-2: Yes. speaker-0: took gold men? Right, right, right, right. speaker-2: I can't s I don't know him well and I can't speak to his motivations, and I wouldn't try. Here's what I know about Brad Lander. He spent every week of the last at least a year doing essentially protective presence for people who are in iced detention in New York City. So if it's a political ploy to engage in this kind of activism, I would like more of our politicians to get engage in that kind of political activism. It's not episodic, it's not only when the cameras are rolling. He didn't show up, get his picture taken in leave he was there the whole time. He's out there again today and he'll be out there again tomorrow. And I think more politicians should be willing to actually go and be a part of the change that they want to see and not just talk about it. speaker-0: Let it also be said that he did grow up in Nifty. speaker-2: Yes, he did. So yes. speaker-1: You I I you I you're asking who does it serve? obviously, you know, the extremist settlers are probably the ones who initiated, right? And you know, in Smotric of course it serves his his interests. I don't think it serves the Likud and Netanyahu as a whole. I don't think most Likud voters support violence. Maybe they don't care about this, but I don't think this is something that could help Netanyahu in in his campaign, which is, you know, he seems to be struggling. struggling. so you know s always extremists on on both sides have an entry motive to sort of put everything in flames, right? I I d I don't think it really helps the speaker-0: my question is if this really serves Ben Beer and he can message now like, look at these, left wing far progressive anti Zionists, who come here and try to prioritize the Palestinians over the Jews and they're all self hating and this is what we don't w We got rid of them, yeah. speaker-1: problem is we we don't have truth or false anymore, right? So Bang Vir's propaganda is Bang Vir strong for strong Israel. I mean look at the last four years. I mean it's that strong my God, kid you know we we have the cri not to talk about October seventh, the crime rate, the violence is raging I in in Arab cities and in in other cities in Israel. So it's he can say whatever he wants. speaker-0: There's a clear binary. It's either far right wing or Palestinian, or Yamin or Palestinian. Yeah, yeah, yeah. speaker-2: My question as as someone who's come here from the outside, I'm wondering what you guys think of this, and maybe this attributes too much strategy to to a government that I don't know, maybe doesn't have a strategy, to what extent I I'm concerned. I'm wondering if you think this is a f factor, even if it's factor number twenty three on the list, of trying to disincentivize the next two hundred and fifty people who are scheduled to come from the outside in next few weeks. Yeah. from coming because they see they want to make a big scene and and a big show of speaker-1: I think it would actually work both ways. So they want to scare people but I can I think it actually motivates more people to come and show up. I think speaker-2: I hope that that will be speaker-1: is worse, people understand they have to take a stand. So I think it could actually backfire on them if this is what they want. and I think it really crystallizes, right? What what are the elections about, right? Whether we want to have a Jewish and democratic state or a messianic race racist state who you know promotes hate. and I think it it really puts this choice in front of us very clearly. speaker-0: I want to open it up, yeah, yeah. And then I have one last question for you, Joel, at the end. So we're we'll remind that we do have a live studio audience right here. speaker-2: Is this the first episode with a live studio? speaker-1: No we've we've had a few before. speaker-0: We've had a few before and we're most speaker-2: So Lostria's life. speaker-0: illustrious and we will have another live audio live studio audience event at the URJ Blaze December. you know, be there or be somewhere else. speaker-1: But I have another wives in the biennial in Australia in November. speaker-0: November, yeah, yeah, it's coming up. So that will be exciting. I think that if you sign up now you can get in the line for tickets. people like camping out outside to get to actually it'll be amazing. so we'd love to hear from you, like what's going on in your minds as students here for the year, you know, listening to this story and all the big questions that that come up from it. Hi everybody. my name is David Feinberg. I'm from Philadelphia. having a professional politician in your midst during this, I think is skewing a certain narrative of motivations behind your actions in this incident. You, on the other hand, are not a politician and I I wanna direct it at you I know that I I don't wanna press you too hard about addressing the rabbinic community, but a politician rises and falls based on public opinion. A rabbi has taken on something for a spiritual motivation. I'm wondering if in light of your experience, do you have message that you think you might carry back? to the rabbinic communities of the diaspora in the United States more specifically, now that this has happened to you? speaker-2: It's a good question. I wanna question a part of the assumption of your statement a second ago. To me a leader is someone who has followers. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-2: So I don't I don't so I I hope as a rabbi to like that people will go with me. So it's not unimportant the opinions and perspectives of the community I serve. And I serve a community that for New York City is pretty politically diverse, actually. So I don't think I don't take those decisions lightly about how I'm gonna act on my liberal Zionism, which Some people in my congregation are aligned with me that way as they are about other things and other people are not. So the decision to come here wasn't an automatic, easy one. It's not one that I didn't think about. And I think each rabbi, to your question, I think each rabbi has to think about their context and think about you know, their own obviously every rabbi has their own ideas and their own perspectives and their and they have to make their own decisions. I hope that rabbis I'm I I hope to be a rabbi who, as I said at the beginning, kind of acts on my values and doesn't just preach it. I also know that I can't be the I could be the boy who cried wolf and every week it's another controversial zets of the Jewish people. And I could do that, but but I know that people will stop listening. And I think each rabbi is gonna have to decide in this moment, everywhere, here in Israel and around the world, where they're gonna draw their lines and what where what they're willing to put I mean I would actually say more kind of what they're willing to put on the line in order to live. about the values that we teach all all of the time. I will say I put this out on our rabbinic our C CR Rabbinic Facebook page yesterday and people were extremely supportive, which again, during those eight hours I did say, and I literally wrote the post to the C CR Facebook page while I was on the bus to the police station where I didn't know what was gonna happen. And I wa I was not thinking straight, so which is not a good time to act, but I decided I would put it out there and say, look, I'm your mayor I mean it was whatever, it like four o'clock in the morning at New York at that time, so I didn't know what but but I said, look, this is what's happening. I've been detained together with you know other with eighty other people, including rabbis, and I did say in the post if you fundamental something like if you fundamentally disagree with my being here or if you feel like I I'm getting what I deserved, I would really appreciate it if you would not say that today it's not what I what I need. and I said that because I there are plenty of rabbis who who don't agree that a rabbi should come and do this work and and the C Sarah Facebook page I think all my Ravetta colleagues would agree. I'm a big Star Wars fan. My wife and I say the C Sarah Facebook page can be a hive of scum and villainy. and and not that speaker-0: It could be spicy a little bit. I I do want to give one shout out to a colleague of ours, who I I I won't say his name, but he has a reputation of being more small c conservative on Israel and right wing, who has a relationship with the foreign ministry and the foreign ministry reached out to him to say, Do you have a list of the rabbis? Yeah. Wow. speaker-2: hadn't heard that yet and speaker-0: And I'll tell you more afterwards. And he immediately reached out to me and I provided him with a list and he's like and I said to him I I know that this is not your cup of tea right now. And he goes, No, but these are my colleagues and I will do everything I can to help them. And and and then the the Messiah ar arrived at that moment. It was like the Yeah, the Mashiach came down and said this is it. We all sing Kubaya. No, but it it was it was a nice moment. speaker-1: I do wanna say another thing. I think that you know, we have some dilemmas around those issues here and I think being a leader means you have to be at least fifteen percent ahead of your congregation. So you have to lead the way. You have to have people behind you, but you have to lead the way. And I see the role of Iraq as also leading the way and challenging what what people think and doing things that maybe people find not, you know, people are not with us yet, but then they understand that it's a timely thing to do and like I think the the one good example is when we joined the pro-democracy protest at the beginning of 2023. We were at the first demonstration against this government during their first government meeting and we were there and we said we're against a government that is completely against our values. And in the beginning people here in Israel said, well, why are you doing this? This is political, this is partisan. And we told them this is the basic fact of Israel being a Jewish and democratic state. And within a few weeks people joined us, but we had to lead the way. And I think doing what you do, Joel, is so important because you know we are here in this world to raise this Jewish voice for for compassion and for justice and equality. And if we're not doing this then then why are we here? And I think it really touches upon speaker-0: Back to what said about the Torah. Yeah. speaker-1: such fundamental values that it's that's what we should do. speaker-2: Yeah, and I I think about this a lot. I I sometimes when I speak it's political, okay? It's hopefully nonpartisan, but it's political. I'm also aware of the extent to which when I don't speak, it's also speaker-1: It's also a choice. speaker-2: It says either or both, you know, there's really nothing to see here. This is all fake news or whatever. Or it says actually your Judaism has nothing to say about this thing that's going on. So so knowing that sometimes speaking is political and sometimes not speaking is political, I don't always speak, but I choose my spots and I think each rabbi has to decide where the line is. But speaking in this moment is political. humbly submit that not speaking in this moment is political like many other moments. speaker-1: And and I think everything we're doing is political, right? I I keep telling people that in Israel entering a reformed synagogue is a political statement. whatever we do has political implications. And definitely in the specific moment that we are in, just a couple of days before the elections, and we did mention that today is the day remembering speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Rabin thirty one years ago when he when he was assassinated. we are in a very, very sensitive moment in Israeli history, one of our most critical elections coming up, and we should raise a voice for peace, we should raise a voice against violence and for justice for all. And this is our duty to raise a Jewish voice for that, because as I said, people use Judaism to, you know, turn our our the state to a completely different way, which is completely against our values. speaker-2: Thank you all for this conversation. Hillel. you talked about the percentage of Jewish settlers that is actually perpetrating the violence in these attacks. I think it's like, I don't know, six hundred to eight hundred thousand Jewish settlers in the West Bank. You said one to two thousand settlers committing these kinds of atrocities is violence. kind of a two-part question. One, I'm wondering, you know, what does this experience and kind of a general question for the group, but specifically your situation, how this illuminates in the context of the accountability amongst the greater population of of Jewish settlers and what this means for the future of Jewish and Palestinian coexistence in the West Bank and the entirety of the land. What does this say, you know, your story and what you've experienced, how does that inform the the backdrop of that? actually that's I'll leave it there for now. That's a big enough question. speaker-0: How much time do we have? Yeah, it's speaker-1: You know, I I I can say just that the problem is that a the very a very small group really sets the tone. And we've seen it also with our government, right? That most Israelis do not support Ben Ver and Smothrich, but now they set the tone and it seems that this is Israel. and it's important to show the world and to show ourselves that this is not Israel, this is not Judaism. Now in order for that not to be, you know, the dominant tone and voice, we need to change, right? We need to change the government and we need to do whatever we can, including coming and doing protective presence. in the ground to show that this is not what you know what what we agree with I expect other people within the West Bank and in Israel to show that because if we don't do it then you know the impression is well everybody's right everybody agree with it and we're not willing to accept that speaker-0: And let's say, let's give the Halachic, nicha. let let's say that I you know, if I was in the settler camp and said like yes, you know, there's no problem with Jews living in Jewish communities in Judean Samaria, then How is this working in my favor? Like, is this the reputation that you want? And when we hear mainstream politicians condemning these acts of violence, they are usually done with a caveat to say that, like, you know, the most of the settlers are really, you know, peaceful and loving people who have come and who, you know, want to live together with Palestinians. And there are such people, right? We've met them. You know, we know them. So my best friend. No. But but but but then they say, and this is just a few wild weeds or excuse me, which we know is also not necessarily the case because it's a growing movement that has backing from the highest places in power. and I think that that is the message that needs to be sent to the mainstream set, you know, settler movement or the Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria, like even those that are in what we call consensus areas, that we know, like Gushitzion or Malay Dumim is not going to be dismantled and given to the Palestinian state in the future. Like that's everyone sort of operates under that as. and we've talked to some of the mainstream, you know, moderate rabbis like y you know, the Liechtenstein family from from Haratzion and and and Alonsch Foot and like who like, no, like act a Benadam, you know, like remember Bitzel Elohim, it's you know that just now remember like things that are become like cliché for us already, but they're like speaker-1: Some people I know in Ephraim they have a weekly demonstration of people against of violence. So we hear those violence. speaker-2: actually had someone with with us in a from Ephrat on the first I think it was the first or second day, and he said my rabbi says that this is you know the that this psych that this rabbi other rabbi meeting is wrong and and that's not speaker-0: But they're not strong enough for voices and they're not they're actively preventing speaker-2: We also asked him if he was telling his neighbors that he was here and he did not. speaker-0: Right. I mean you know, and look at how it exploded with attacking European diplomats and the Washington you know, Heidi Levine, the Washington Post reporter who's like really seriously injured. I mean this is really, you know, serious stuff. and it's getting out of control. And, you know, unfortunately we we we need that to come from the top as well. I'll just say that Iraq and and Orle you can speak to it has been in active advocacy for years and years and years to classify Jewish terrorists as terrorists organizations because that has do you want to say a word about that just speaker-1: Well yeah, well first of all I should say that we have been demanding that rabbis who incite racism be brought to justice, including rabbis who really laid the foundation for all the terror Jewish terror attacks in the West Bank. That has been years ago, right? Some of them have been indicted, some of them have not, because this is really the sort of the source of it, the the Halachic like reasoning for that. and we've also demanded they be declared, you know, Jewish t basically terrorist organizations. this you know, some have been, some have not. and obviously this is the jurisdiction of the defense minister so under the current government of course it's not possible but maybe if there's a genuine government I I do believe that you know a different government would definitely put this on the top of their agenda not only because of the moral reasoning but because it's it's literally like strategically it's create such a harm for Israel, of course in the out you know with i in the Jewish diaspora and toward you know the international community as a whole so people understand how bad this is for Israel. and that's why I do believe that we could see change. But Joel, you didn't answer if you want to say something about speaker-2: No, I think, you know, you would have the bigger picture. I was thinking about this man who came on the first day of the harvest and, you know, it would be great if he brought ten a million of his friends with him. But you know, the fact that there are good people as as we know from history, if good people do nothing that's consent and that is you know, assent. And and so We need more people like that to show that that's the case. speaker-1: Okay, I think we're nearing the end. maybe looking ahead, Joel's you're going back. Actually this speaker-2: Even though speaker-1: back home. So what are you taking with you? speaker-0: What are you gonna speak about? speaker-2: Fortunately my beloved colleague Rabbi Jill Rubin is preaching tomorrow night. I speaker-1: one thing that speaker-2: mean I I I wanna I wanna be honest and say I I have a lot of processing to do of this experience. I was actually we had pre-scheduled for me to zoom back to my congregation last night, like sort of from from the from the place, ten o'clock last night here, three PM and while I was speaker-0: Yeah, it's like know. speaker-2: While I was in the police custody, my president and my executive director widely dis wisely before we knew whether I was being deported or not, wisely decided that I wasn't gonna be in the headspace. I could have been online last night at ten o'clock as it turns out. they they decided rightly at that. So I I like to think before I speak. I I you know, I intend to to share the story. I intend to share why I think this is a liberal Zionist act that I That I and so many others are engaged in, and you know, hope to inspire people. I am a person who talks a lot in my community about inviting people to bring their strong backs and their open hearts. And I know I'm gonna be speaking to people who have strong backs, who think this was the best thing and they're so proud of their rabbi, and people who are very mad and you know might think that the synagogue shouldn't have helped fund this trip, even though they didn't ask that question when I came in November of 2023 and then brought a group of Congress back in February of 2024. So I know that I'm speaking to people who are kind of all over the place, and I hope to be able to tell, share a story. I believe, you know, as rabbis, we we believe in the power of story, and you can argue with facts, and you bring your facts, I'll bring my facts, and we won't convince each other. And I don't know if I can convince anybody, but I hope that people will receive the story in the spirit that I mean it, and maybe their hearts will be opened and they'll be thinking about something. And I know that I have many congs who We're thinking about the election here and the election there, and so all of that is on our mind. speaker-1: Joe, I want to thank you. I want to also mention the fact that my rabbi, Rabbi Lana Zilboman Survey, she's the rabbi of my congregation and the co-chair of Rabbies for Human Rights was with today yesterday, detained also and I was in touch with her the whole day. And I wanna I appreciate so much what she has been doing and I appreciate what you're doing. I think it is a courageous act and really the voice of as you said liberal Zionism of Judaism. and I think we we are really indebted to you. and I hope we this episode like like Joe. side is really giving this, prominence and so people would really understand what's happening and what we have been doing. Conversations like this are exactly why we started the podcast. This podcast exists because we believe Israel can be better for all who live here and for all who care about it from afar. But that takes honest conversation and it takes partnership. So if these conversations are important for you, please share this episode and help us keep this conversation going. speaker-0: To stay up to date, subscribe on YouTube wherever you listen to podcasts. If you want to help us grow, make an engaging post on social media. Maybe something like, After listening to the Pluralist Podcast, I learned from Rabbi Joel Mossbacher that any speech is political and also not speaking is political as well, and you have to make that choice and the best we can expect from people is to keep an open heart. You don't have to use that verbatim, but you can you know quote from that. But it's okay if you do, and you can leave a five star review and send this episode to someone who should be part of this conversation and maybe maybe even use this opportunity to sponsor one of the episodes of the Pluralist Podcast and keep on listening. Todawa. speaker-1: To them, bye-bye. Noam Zuckerman: you