Latest / WoT Spoilers / Nine Out of Ten - Knife of Dreams chapter 33 - EP506

Transcript

Nine Out of Ten - Knife of Dreams chapter 33 - EP506 · WoT Spoilers

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: This is the Wheel of Time spoilers podcast.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Speaking of what the fuck was that? Do you want
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: to actually talk about the Wheel of Time?
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I remember how it has been
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: a while.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: It has been a while, not quite, but it has
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: been a full month.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Because we didn't do the last week August, and next
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: week it will be the first or second of October.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: So yeah, it's been four weeks.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been a full four weeks of not recording.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I don't know. I actually literally thought that
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: I did my notes already, and like several hours ago,
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: I was like, oh, yeah, no, I did my notes
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: before our last recording session. I didn't. I just refreshed
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: myself on what happened in the book. Like I've been
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: listening to Broken Earth again since we've recorded, Like I just.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: I've actually gone and listened to the Sanderson books, the
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: ending of this trilogy since last time we oh wow
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: did an episode. So I'm I'm actually having trouble centering
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: myself because I'm like, wait, didn't this already happen? I'm like, no, No,
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: that's the last three books, right, so we haven't even
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: gotten there yet. So yeah, no, the break it's definitely
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: getting my head back in the game wasn't too hard, though,
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: I do. I mean, we were jumping in at the
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: end of the Elaine Secession war, and I do remember
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: kind of where we were in that war, and now
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: we're picking back up and sort of finishing it off.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: This is the cup detas for Elaine. In her it's
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: not a coup.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: It's just a victory.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: Coup de ta is a expression that can be used.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: I don't think that winning a brute force military victory
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: counts as a coup de' ta when you're the rightful
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: ruler who others were trying to coop against. But sure,
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: you're you're the new you're the newlywed. I'll let you
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: be right on this one.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: How about that, I've been using that word long for
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: the time. I thought that meant something totally different. Oh no,
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: I just looked it up. Oh no, I'm so wrong
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: about what that word means. No, I thought it was
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: just I thought it was just a victory, an unexpected victory.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's a little more specific than that.
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I know what a coup is, but I thought
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: a cudata was just like an unexpected victory. Okay, And
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: a coup was just like a you know, obviously you
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: take over a government, right, but like, yeah, I didn't
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: realize it was specifically just well no.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Wait now I'm confused. What I've been getting wrong.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: It literally says a coup de ta or simply a coup, right,
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: it's just a French way of saying a coup. Right,
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: like it's nothing, there's no you know. I thought it
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: sort of made it softer in some way.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, athlon is saying that the coup de gras
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: is the final victory. So that's what this would be.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's what I've been trying to say.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: Here you go. See, you're only a slight syllable off.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: You knew what you're on about. You just didn't know
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: what you were on about.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, yeah, coop de gras that's that's what this is.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so magic of editing.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: Wow, I didn't realize that those were Yeah, I totally
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: got coup de gras and coups de tas for some
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: reason mixed up in my head.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'd never thought about the fact that those
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: are two different phrases, like consciously so like I'm right
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: there with you. I just happened to not put my
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: foot in my mouth.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: First, yeah, those fucking Kyrie In and I mean French.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, the Kyrie In and French definitely,
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: and then their sun palaces. There's sun Kings.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: So this is the chapter where Elaine gets nine out
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: of ten of the Auseid's a supporter. It starts off
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: with a POV of Elaine getting rescued, right, we've seen
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: that already in the last chapter from Brigida's point of
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: view though.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, we're doing kind of like little montage
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: flashback between chapters because Brigida is riding up to the
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: wagon at the end of the last chapter, and then
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: this picks up with Elaine's thoughts leading up to that
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: moment when Brigida jumps up into the wagon, which is
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: which is a fun It's a very nice way to
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: get back into the podcast story.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: It does help. It does help.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: Like last episode last season.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: Last time on Wheel of Time spoilers, Elaine was.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: Rescued exactly exactly. It's kind of like with with the
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: Winner's Heart thing with the Crossers of Twilight with the cleansing,
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: except it's just like a few paragraphs instead of a
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: whole book. But yeah, let us get into chapter thirty
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: three nine out of ten with the symbol being the
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: lion of and Or because it's the conclusion to the
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: succession crisis basically, and it's nine out of ten. It's
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: not ten out of ten, so tech but this is
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: a really big, like the tide has turned and is
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: flowing back out to sea kind of moment.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: Right, because it was Remember it was six, six and
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: six going into this, right, and so there were what's
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: basically six undecided, six for Aramela and six on her side. Yeah,
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: And by the end of it, she keeps maintains her
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: six and what does she get?
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: She adds three.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: A's three and those are the three that were on
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: Aramela's side, right, Yes.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: Three defect from Aramella's side, and the other three stay
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: defiant because they were too committed to.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: The cause to back out, right, right. They were the
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: ones who were actually leading the cause, right. So then
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: that's nine out of ten. So the other six that
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: aren't involved.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: Are the ones that are approaching.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're on they are unaffiliated, right yeah.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: And when they show up, they ask Elane to make
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: a pitch for why they should join, and all it
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: takes is one of them to agree more of them
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: than that agree, and it's that's where you really get
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: the Kudi grave. But like, this is this is what
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: shifts the tide from like Lagrangian balance to like, well,
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: what are you going to do? Are you going to
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: stay on the losing side? Are you going to shift
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: to the winning side?
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: Right? Right? Because because at this point there are two
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: sides and then the undecided, and she decimates one side,
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: so like.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: What do you yeah, and then well shit, now the
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: numbers have gone against us and we can't remain undecided effectively.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: So but we'll also will never be quite as trusted
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: as if we stepped up and been on her side before.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: Well, the part where they were undecided because of the
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: whole More Gaze thing is less skeevy than the part
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: where they were with Arara Milla laying siege right Like
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: the six they were off to the side are like,
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: it's different. It's not the same as Ara Milla and
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: Milenia and Nay.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: And we really can't blame more Gaze for them being
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: off to the side.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: No, yeah, And that's part of why it's easy for
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: Elaine to be like, look, shit went down. It was
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: bad it's we're turning a new page with a new ruler, Like,
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: give me a chance, and that's enough of a pitch
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: for a few of that undecided six to'd be like,
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: all right, fine, the numbers are going this way. Dilon
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: wants it cool. But yeah, for now, before we get
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: to all that, we have to have a pretty action
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: packed battle sequence with a lot of a lane being decisive.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: So Alida, my babies, my baababes. The Dark Friends had
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: taken no chances with Elaine. Aside from shielding her, Tamila
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: had taken seemingly malicious pleasure in tying her in a
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: tight knot with her head between her knees, her muscles
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: already ached from the cramped position. The gag, a dirty
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: piece of rag with a vile, oily taste, tied so
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: tightly that it dug into the corners of her mouth,
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: had been meant to keep her from shouting for help
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: at the gates, not that she would have. All that
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: would have done was sentenced the men guarding the gates
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: to death. She could feel the six Black Sisters holding
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: Sidar until they were through the gate, but the blindfold
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: had been an unnecessary touch. She thought they wanted to
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: add to her sense of helplessness. Yet she refused to
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: feel helpless. After all, she was perfectly safe until her
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: babies were born, and so were her babies. Minn had said,
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: so she knew she was in a wagon or cart
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: by the sound of harness and the feel of rough
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: boards beneath her. They had not bothered to pad the
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: floorboards with a blanket. A wagon, she thought there seemed
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: to be more than one horse pulling it. The wagon
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: box smelled of old hay so strongly that she wanted
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: to sneeze. Her situation seemed hopeless. But Brigita would not
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: fail her, and so she does not. Brigita does not
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: fail her.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: The bond said, Brigido's aimed at her target, and brigidi
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: silo never missed. Right. I love that line, Like right,
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: she can feel that tension and it's like, yep, I
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: know she's gonna rescue me.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: It's like I'm the focus of Brigita. I'm fine, but
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: an interesting parallel with rand right, this head between her knees,
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: gag stuffed in her mouth.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: She's in this box. He was never blindfolded, but it
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: didn't matter because it was a dark box.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: He was effectively blindfolded by the box.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, right, right. The difference is he blew the
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: box up because he could see the inside of the box.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: She can't do that, right, right, But yeah, the Black
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: Sisters do really have a malicious desire to put people
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: into small, knotted up packages and transport them to their dark,
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: nefarious fortress of doom or whatever.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I always enjoy the parallels between Rand and Agwaine,
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: right that it seems that Agwain this is oh no,
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: you're right, this is a lane. Yeah, interesting because Agwain
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: goes through a lot of the parallel and yeah, okay.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: They yeah, both his old love and his new love
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: both get kind of similarly stuffed.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: Into boxes, right right.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, Aguayne goes through it a lot more in
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: a Rand like pattern, with the in and out, in
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: and out getting beaten and then shoved back in.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: This is so brief that it's really more like Elaine
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: gets a chance to empathize with Rand without actually dealing
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: with the torture long term in a way that like, yeah.
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's more like what Men went through during the
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: Jumai as wells sequence, Like Men got boxed up, but
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: just kind of off to the side for a minute,
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: and I think she was kept less confined because they
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: couldn't torture Rand with knowing she was in a box.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: I guess I don't think. I don't think she got
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: boxed and beaten the same way.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: No no Athalon says, she gets to try before you
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: buy box. I'm not gonna buy this. That was good.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: I like that maybe.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: And so she feels Brigita not just focused, but also
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: leap ahead. Right she was behind in the city and
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: then suddenly the bond jumps up in front and she's like, Okay,
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: here we go. That's where the attack is going to happen, right.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: Like, clearly they're laying an ambush. They know where I
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: like Brigita and this whole thing that, like Brigita with
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: a warder, it's very hard to capture. And I said,
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: I if the warder knows where they are, right, you
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: can't like sneak them away.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's good she didn't take the warders into the
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: building because then she wouldn't have Brigita outside to rescue.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: And in a lot of ways, this is exactly how
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: Rand was rescued.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: Right because of Alana.
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: Alana tracked him using the word bond and they teleported
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: in or well I think Paren just caught up.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they just caught up, but they still knew what
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: direction to go in pretty right, like it helped to know.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: Time won't gated in you might as wells right like, so,
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: which was always how did Tim know where to go?
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: That's always an interesting little fact. I do wonder, you
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: do wonder we never really get a definite answer.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: To that, because he's Demondred.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: At that point. Yes, I believe. I believe entirely through
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: the Lord of Chaos he's Demandra. Yeah, yeah, totally, like
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: after after reading it and like, yeah, I believe that
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: during that book Jordan made him demandrad the so called
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: a eel is the one thing which really it's such
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: a nobody well no one else, no one will says
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: that be forsaken. I don't care if you hang around
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: the forsaken you don't pick up that.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: Little nope, No, you don't, You just don't.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: You don't, you don't. So there's there's no excuse for
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: that other than being modred. So that's that's my big
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: waving red flag for that, you know, besides the fact
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: that like obviously you can't be the moondred because Vannon
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: is the modred.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, but that's that's a patch on the board
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: that was made.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: So there's this like Elaine and her attitude towards men
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: dying for.
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: Her bothers me hmmm, yeah, like she.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: Wanted to eat for them. They deserve someone to weep
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: for them. They were dying for her. Sadness for them
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: welled up in her. Again, No guilt though.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: No, that was that was for Vandan and Serritha though,
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: is that's how I thought that the guilt was about
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: Vandin and Saretha because of.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: Yes, I think it's for everybody, it's for all. There's
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: no guilt for any of these deaths, right because none
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: of this would have Basically, she cannot let the Dark
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: Friends go free, and whoever has to die to make
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: sure they don't go free is justified in her mind,
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: all of these men dying, Vandene and Saretha dying, right Like,
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: She's like, the only other choice I could have made
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: that would have prevented this, which is a total bullshit.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: By the way, the only other choice she could have
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: made to prevent all of this is by letting the
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: Dark Friends go free.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess I hadn't really lumped the eyes to
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: die in with the men who are dying. I kind
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: of seen this as like separate thoughts in her head,
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: but like, you're right, they aren't separate thoughts. They're all
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: blended together. She has no guilt for the hundreds of
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: men that she's getting killed, because that's what it takes
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: to chase down dark friends. And I mean, did.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: It follow that with the immediate thought of there had
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: been no way to anticipate the arrival of others or
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: that strange weapon, ASKEDNY.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: Had Actually there were?
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: There were, There were absolutely you could have taken total precautions.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: People were saying you were being reckless when you were
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: walking into the situation. Everybody was urging caution. Yeah, and
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: you took men's viewing as I will be safe and
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: instead hunting. This is why I get so angry at
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: a Lane during this storyline, Like this is the kind
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: of stuff that makes me go, Yes, she is a
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: bit of a spoiled brat in this particular instance.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: I think this is beyond being a spoiled brat. I
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: think that that's not a hefty enough critique.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, reckless in a way that with other people's lives, Right,
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: that just like feels just because you and your babies
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: are going to be okay, which is not even that guaranteed,
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: because they're going to be born okay, that doesn't mean
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: they're going to survive or that you will be okay.
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: Right, Like, No, I just looked up in a few
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: pages we get the Butcher's Bill, and it's as maybe
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: many as five or six hundred people dead in a
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: few minutes.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: And twice that many injured, so another thousand injuries.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: And she has no guilt at all for rushing in
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: recklessly against the advice of all of her advisors. That
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: like even we as readers can say, like, but you
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: had a better, better way, there were there were better
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: ways to m Yeah, I just I don't think being
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: a spoiled brat is a sufficiently weighty critique.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: It's it's it's not. Yeah, it's not the right critique, right,
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: it's not. But that's why people call her that, right,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: is this idea of.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: Just well, those people need to dig deeper and pick
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: up a fucking thsorus. Like if you're gonna critique someone,
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: like use the right word.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but like.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: No, that is very like if she was having a
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: moment in there going oh shit, oh I need to
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: really do risk assessment better. This was a fuck up,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: this would be a.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: Very different exactly exactly.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: It would be very different because like.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: If at this moment she said, oh my god, just
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: because I have this viewing doesn't mean that other people
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: are safe or that you know, like, if from this
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: moment on there'd be been a change, I could have
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: really been much happier with her. And this is where
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, and we'll get into this, but Brandon Sanderson
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: I think fundamentally missed the evolution of some of the
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: characters in this book, specifically in this book, right. I
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: think that a lot of these characters should have had
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: a realization at this point. You know, maybe and you know,
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: obviously she didn't, so maybe Jordan forgot about it too,
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: But like it would have been really nice to see
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: her evolve in Sanderson's books instead of just sort of
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: continue this mistake right of oh, I'll be fine.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, it honestly feels like this is the moment
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: when that gets missed. This this should have been the
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: moment when that turner happened, rather than when she gets
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: stabbed in the side, and like that's when she starts behaving,
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: like this is when that should have happened, because yeah,
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: like it does make sense to be reckless when you're
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: a queen trying to deal with like potential dread lords.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: There are times when you're gonna make gambles that have
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: high stakes. Like that's not inherently a bad thing, but
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: you should at least learn from the bad mistakes. Right,
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: she doesn't, and she doesn't, and that it's not what
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: we want because she has been growing and learning in
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: previous books, and this feels like a missed step.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: It does, it does? It really feels like she should
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: be learning from this in a way that she's not.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: And I I don't even know. I can't even say
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: that it bothers me, right, it just it. I can't
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: say how it bothers me. It just bothers me.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I hear that. But she gets
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: to uh win anyway, so uh. The other the thing
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: I don't like here is the next paragraph. You know,
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: she feels the lightning strike hit nearby and she goes
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: you know, oh, it seems like Brigida managed to involve
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: the wind finders, even though that's unlikely the time would
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: come when the kid would have to use the power
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: as a weapon. But let them preserve their innocence a
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: little longer. These women are like five times your age.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: What fucking innocence do you have a right to preserve
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: for them? They have killed men with knives and bludgeons
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: and pots of hot oil. Like, what the fuck? It's
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: okay for these men to get annihilated by bailfire and
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: ripped to shreds. But oh, these women shouldn't have to
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: engage in the fight, even though they're literally older than
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: the oldest grandma you've ever met. What are we doing?
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: Terrible strategy, terrible strategy. If they're gonna have to fight
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: in the last battle, get them fighting sooner, ye.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, So that's that's the part. I'm just like,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: what innocence do you not even finished cooking your prefrontal cortex? Lady?
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: Have to preserve for these grandmothers who have lived like
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: five different lives, changing out their city of origin and
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: their trade, Like, what are you doing?
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: And let them do some fighting before Tarmer and Guiden
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: who wants to go into tarmin Guiden not having done
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: any fighting?
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: Well, I wanted to preserve your innocence?
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: What what what again? Over overbeiling, overbearing helicopter parent, except
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: that she's.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: Still basically a teenager, So where the fuck is that
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: energy coming from?
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we're really like this chapter is not a good
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: for a Lane and like her personality.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: Not in our eyes apparently. I mean, I feel like
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: Robert Jordan wrote a badass like victory chapter and we're
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: over here just like shredding, tearing it apart.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because it does feel like she fell asked backwards
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: into this, right, she got kidnapped, failing up and only
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: she's failing upwards only because Burgita executes an amazing rescue
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: and which we saw in the last chapter. Does she
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: even like capture these dark friends? And then you know
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: she does this strategy of like Aaron Milla does this
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: really dumb thing of emptying out all her camps with
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: the assumption. You know, also this gateway thing also really
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: fucks with her because they get all the That's how
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: she gets attacked from.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: Behind, yep, yep, because typical rich people behave they don't
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: actually think that anyone else is as smart or competent
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: as the rest of them.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so it's really just like Brigida saves her
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: from the dark friends, and Aaron mill is so dumb
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: that she basically hands Elaine the crown.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but let's all blame it on Elaine being clever,
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: right right, right, Other people are doing the work and
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: she gets the crown.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: Credit bit very much feels like the end of Game
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: of Thrones TV show, right where at the end they
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: give the kingdom to brand and you go, okay, like
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: feels like you can deserve that. But fine, I guess
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: that's what we're doing, you know, And that's that's to
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: me Elaine in this situation where it's like you just
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: got lucky. I mean, yeah, she had fewer troops.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: Now, the Brigida and Charles Guybon and Shanella of it
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: all is really what won the day. Like it's Brigida
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: and Charli's Guybon, like they're the ones that made this happen.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's surrounding yourself with good people.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: And in fairness, neither of them want to be queen.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: Both of them want toe to be queen. So it's
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: fine that she gets the crown, but it is, Yeah,
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: she's getting rewarded for things that other people had to.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: Clean up exactly right, she gets she gets rewarded because
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: other people clean up her mess. I think that's what
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: bothers me the most.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but we have a fun moment here where Elaine
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: sniffs in disdain and immediately sneezes because she's in a
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: dusty wagons. That a mistake, sneezing repeatedly. She climbed down
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: to that's what you get for your disdainful sniffs, princess.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: That's great. Of course she talked thinks about wanting a
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: hot bath, thank you, Elaine.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, it is Elaine.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: I mean within her.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: She didn't get ahead trauma this time, so you know,
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: like that's that's the turning her.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: Shit around, you know, that's that's that's something.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, something she thinks about wanting Charles Guybond as a
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: third warder. He's cute and competent.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: Would love to see more follow up on that.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, the queen who's agree definitely needs like an arrowhead
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: of warders behind her. She can't be having or too.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: She needs three minimum, and one of them is the
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: dragon reborn, So like really that's not a sustainable Like
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: you gotta be finding other guys at this point. Charles
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: Guybond head of the Queen's guard. Yes, and he chose
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: to carry her personal banners into battle. Like clearly, he's
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: like a non creepy tollin for you know, he's just like, no,
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: I actually like being the guard to a powerful monarch
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: that he's like Gareth Brynn. He's like, no, no, no, no.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: It gives me personal satisfaction to see you safe and
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: doing your thing, like I am a guardsman capital TM.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: I like that.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, man. And in the same way that I would
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: have loved to see that warder isid Eye relationship evolve.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: I also really wanted to see Llewellyn and the Guayne's evolve.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: I really if I would rewrite this. So I was
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: doing a little summary of the next book. There's so
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: many Gwain chapters in the next book, so many.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: And like Tripleheader, it's a guy.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: This Well, the problem is they're spread out. Fuck. I mean,
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: we're just gonna have to roll him into the other
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: chapters that they're with. But yeah, I mean, like the
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: Golin chapters are awful. They're really bad. And there's a
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: point where he does something I can't remember what it is. Oh,
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: when he saves her from the blood knives and he
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: lays dying and she wakes up. He should have died
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: in her arms in that moment.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: H huh. Absolutely, that would have catalyzed so much growth
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: for her, so.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: Much growth for her. And then she could have bonded Llewellyn,
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: the shan Chan, who would have actually protected in the
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: last battle. She would have dealt with the loss beforehand.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: That is the moment in which I truly believe that
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: Golwin was supposed to die.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: Oh what if she'd managed to water bond him and
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: it wasn't enough to save him?
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: That's that, Yes, that's that's definitely it, because that's how
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: she saves him. She water bonds him in that moment
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: to give him strength to survive, because she's not a
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: good healer. But what if she water bonds him, it's
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: not enough. He died anyway, she deals with the after
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: effect of the broken water bond.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, without any order to show for it. God, that
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: would have been so much better.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: And that's it for Gowin because he does nothing else
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: after that. He does nothing else of any importance after
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: that other than go get killed, you know, go get killed.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: He puts on the blood knife rings is an idiot
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: for a while, attacks demandred and is killed.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: We could have had some other clever youngling trying to
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: beat Gowaen's record do that. That would have been fine.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, But dying to save the ambulance seat would
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: have been a great redemption moment for him for all
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: the other stuff that's gone on.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: God, that would have been awesome.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Anyway, anyway, or at least come back and do
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: something in this moment like Gowin would have loved them
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: see him show up for a lane as well. That
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: would have been another perfectly valid thing to do with him.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: That'd have been neat if he'd shown up and just
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: thrown a sword through the air Melar's style right at
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: the last time. Yeah, totally, Hi sister, good to see you.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: I thought i'd come home interrupt an assassination at dumped
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: while I do it. That would have been on. But no,
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: Instead he pouts.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: For a lot of pages, a lot of pages.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: I'm all for introspection, it's a lot.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, all of those chapters should have been parents brooding.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: Let's be honest, Just just replace Golin with parent and
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: have the brooding be the same. You'd be fine.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: But for now we were returned to the road where
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: we have our bound eyes to die and the warders
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: of the woman who died, who are freaking out in
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: a different way. And we're examining our prisoners.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: Now asn he's dead. She's the one who had the
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: pain weapon, right, Tamila, Felion and Cheyenne are right.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: Two eyes to die and then shine, That's what it is.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: And they they are very surprised that Elaine was able
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: to get rescued, like how could this happen? And far
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: from you know, being interested in actual information, they start
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: arguing about which of them should be deferring to the other,
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: which I'm like, yeah, are you really that petty or
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: is this you trying to throw a lane off from
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: some scheme you're already cooking up, Like this is amazing,
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: this is amazingly petty.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: I think they're really that petty. They're basically have a
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: death sentence over their head at this point. They're all
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: sentenced to death, so what the fuck are they arguing about?
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: And it is it is kind of a parallel to
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: what happens with Elenia and ari Milla, like inter just
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: a few pages, which they're not under a death sentence,
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: but it's a similar thing where like they immediately start
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: turning on each other. It's I feel like because Robert
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: Jordan's sort of hitting us over the head with like
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: dark friends and petty people are basically the same thing,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: and like you need teamwork and if you're not the
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: kind of person who wants to do teamwork, then you're
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: probably on the wrong side.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: Well, why does the dark one pick forsaken? What's the
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: one thing he looks for in the for second that
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: we know selfishness?
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's just it's really like he is driving
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: home the point that you're on the wrong side if
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: you can't be a graceful loser and work with your
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: teammates to sort out the problems. Like if you turn
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: on each other, you're not doing it right. That's his thesis.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: Say, according to Robert Jordan, all billionaires are dark friends.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: I don't disagree. Oh I like that you said in
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: chat gotwe has main character syndrome, Paren has I'm not
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: the main character syndrome.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: Oh god, yeah, right? Would you please just be the
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: main character already? Paren?
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: Just accept Yeah? Any okay, back to the battle. We're
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: sticking on the battle. We're sticking on the battle.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so we never get an answer about whether or
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: not the d the Orders are dark friends. I assume
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: they're either killed or killed themselves as part of this, Like,
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: we never get to follow up on that.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: I know at some point there's a contingent of death
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: rage ward that do get sent to the front lines
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: in the last battle, but I think that that's in
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: the aftermath of the White Tower battle. It is it
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: is one hopes that something similar happened with these guys,
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: but yeah, we never actually get follow up and then yeah,
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: the next thing that Alian thinks is like, well, we
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: really can't afford to go have a pitched battle with Aramella.
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: That would be bad. And then like that's what they
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: have to do.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: Oh and I guess in the last chapter there was
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: a fourth man who is a wagon driver who charged
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: the army. He seems to also he appears to be
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: the fourth Order.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I bet, I bet he died in the.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: In the battle Micheal blast.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that killed her because they were both up on
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: front of the wagon.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: Right right, right, So, uh, Brigitte tells Channel that all
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: we lost if the wind Finders do not aid. Chanel
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: agrees and Lightning strikes the one holding a black fluted rod.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: The others are stunned. The wagon driver charges the army,
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: waving his sword.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, so he dies in his death rage.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: Yes, one would assume that he then charges after she's killed.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: Right, and he's like, I'll take down all ten thousand
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: of these people my own self.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: Right, which one would assume results in him being cut
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: to pieces real relatively quickly.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: Right, yep, yeah, so yeah they Elaine receives the news
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: from Brigida that Ara Milla's camps have all been emptied
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: out and even Ara Milla's not there, and she says, wait,
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: we have military intelligence for missus harfor that says that
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: when she leaves the camp marching to the city, that
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: means that she thinks she's gonna win. So if we
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: can actually go turn that battle around, I could capture
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: that bitch and end the war once and for all.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Like all chips around, we are all in on this,
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: on this gambling that we're doing right now.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: And she says basically two things. One, if she's breached
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: the gates and we're too late, well then we've got
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: to fight in the city, right And numbers don't matter
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: as much in those sorts of fights, so we have
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: a chance if she hasn't reached the gates, that's the
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: better situation because we can crush her between the gates,
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: the people who are defending the gates and our armies,
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: and they won't have room to move, which is exactly
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: what ends up happening, right like that.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: Yes, Giland has managed to keep the gates closed because
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: dial In is a badass, right right.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: And then there's this, Remember the information from mister Harford.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: She says, Ara, Mila and the others intend to be
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: the first party to ride into Camlin. That bit of
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: information tells her that they are going to be at
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: the farmatting Gate, which is that they call the farmatting Gate.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: That leads to farmatting and format. Right, yes, it's not
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: like that. I was confused. I was like, wait, are
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: we know? So that's like she knows where they are
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: because of that bit of information, so she knows if
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: she can attack, she has a chance of capturing Thomah
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: And is where we get the news that five or
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: six hundred dead, perhaps a few more twice as many
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: wounded one way or another. So that leaves her with
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: ten thousand troops. So she probably had about eleven, maybe
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: twelve thousand troops going into this attack. Yeah, and around
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: five hundred are dead and around one thousand are injured
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: beyond being combat ready.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but she's like, with the power of gateways and surprise,
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: this is worth it anyway, despite the butcher's bill. And
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: then and Brigida has this great part where she foreshadows
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: something that's gonna happen later and she says, fine, we
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: can go, but you will rise surrounded by your bodyguard.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: This isn't some full story with a queen carrying her
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: banner into battle to lead her troops. I know one
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: of your ancestors did that, but you're not her, and
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: you don't have a broken army to rally. Elaine is
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: going to literally swing a sword at a trillic while
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: nine months pregnant during the last battle. That moment is
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: going to happen, and it's a total foreshadowed right here,
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: because because it's like, you don't have a broken army
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: to rally, that's what she does. She is riding a
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: horse nine months pregnant, already a bad call. And then
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: her army is so broken that she literally swings a
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: sword at a trillic it's gonna happen. It's gonna happen
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: in like four months in book Time.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: Less then yeah, yeah, yeah, well book Time gets real word,
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: real word, real weird in Book fourteen, last book, well.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: It's at the near the end of her last trimester,
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: when she's currently in her second trimester. It's it's all
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: ways off in terms of Elaine's pregnancy timeline, which is
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: the only one that matters in this particular case.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I you know the time. I'm still amazed
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: at that he kept the moon cycles during the whole
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: fucking first eleven books.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: And that's incredible.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: It's incredible.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: That's wild. Oh that reminds me. I listened to an
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: interview with Michael Livingston the other day on a new
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: book about his new book coming I had nothing to
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: do with Wheel of Time, and I was just like
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: a podcast I listened to called the New Books Network,
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: where they'd like interview people who did scholarly works. And
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: he has a new book coming out that's like relocating
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: some famous battle. I already forget because it was a
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: week ago. I listened to it, but it was so funny,
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: just like listening to Michael Livingston, like in his full
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: academic military historian mode. Because I've never listened to any
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: of his other stuff. I just know him from Watcon.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: It's just like, was that making a single like weird
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: wheel of Time reference or anything? This is like full
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: doctor Livingston. It was very cool speaking of detailed people
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: that know all the things.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: Isn't doctor Livings like some fictional name?
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, good, doctor Livingston, I presume.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, where's that from? Is that Sherlock Holmes? No?
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: I don't think so. It's something mid century. I think
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: it's a book. It's about a guy wandering around in Africa,
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: so it's definitely not Scotland yard whatever. Whatever.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: Let's see Google will tell me. Doctor Livington I presume
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: was a nineteen sixty eight song by the English rock
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: band The movie Blues And.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: It's about an incident in actual life.
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: Primary primarily written about doctor David Livingston, an anthropologist. It
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: was a Scottish Scottish missionary and explorer in Central.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: A fucking missionaries, yep, you chat.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: He's famous for a search of the sources of the
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: Nile River and his encounter with Henry Stanley.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: Oh, Henry Morgan Stanley, the explorer who shot his way
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: through Africa. Yes, that fucking guy.
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: That's the he said the phrase, Doctor Livingston.
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: He's the one who actually uttered the phrase, because yeah,
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: dude had been basically lost off the map, off and
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: on for years. As I recall, this was in the
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards episode about Stanley. There was a little like,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: you know, ten minute digression about like that time that
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: he uttered the immortal line.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: That was a tangent.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, from moon cycles to Michael Livingston to doctor Livingston
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: to doctor Livingston. I presume names are fun. Okay, we
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: started this episode with a digression about names, which will
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: be at the end of the episode. But you know, names,
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: names are fun, names are complicated.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: That was a tangent I presume, all right.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: So they reorganized the c folk and the Gateway and
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: the military, and they swing around to go attack Aaron
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: Miller's people. The gates are closed.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: It makes her happy and break all rules of gateways.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: You know, it's a climactic moment for battle reasons, plot plot.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: We're doing this for plot reasons.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: Chanell refused to change the gateway until Lane agreed that
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: this time they would need to provide transfer only in
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: sealed degree with both of them kissing their fingers and
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: pressing blah blah blah blah blah. Only then did the
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: gateway dwindle to a vertical slash and widen again into
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: one hundred paced wide view of Camerlin in from the south.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: You just got there.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: Holding a gateway teaches you the area faster. And it's been.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: Nice red con, nice ret con act. I'm sorry it's
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: half an hour. Then why the fuck it? Do my
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: as well as did they have to stay there for
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: such a long time? Why they gateway in? Why couldn't
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: they immediately gate way out?
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: Because they didn't hold the gateway. That's the thing is,
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: Chanella held the gateway open that whole time where wass'
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: domi as well as they popped in and out, they
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: didn't hold the gateway that whole time. They jumped in closely.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: I thought it was just hold. I thought it was
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: just holding the power, not holding a gateway open. I
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: thought you had all Because later on Rand does this
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: thing where he says, oh, if you gateway in, Well,
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: first of all, he get ways into to fight ravine right,
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: and then he does a short gateway. He's like, you
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: can get way from place to place right if it's
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: a short hot and then later he hacks that to
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: do the short hop. And then once you've made a
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: gateway anywhere, then you know the place and you can
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: make a gateway out of there. So that seems to
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: be this mechanic of once you've made a gateway to somewhere,
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: you can always immediately gateway out of there.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you learn a place when you get way to
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: So yeah, the d M as Well's thing.
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: Is like immediately it contradicts you, m my as Well's right,
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: like the fact that they could He's like, oh, we'll
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: have to stay here for hours until they can learn
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: the location and get way out of here.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Rand was just straight up wrong, and Tam and
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: Dred didn't correct him.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: Apparently apparently or the rules changed at some point in
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: the writing.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: Or but the rules change is the simple explanation. But
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: if we have to keep it in world, then Rand
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: was just wrong, and Tam and Dred was like amateur.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I like it when the massively op thing
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: has really annoying rules rather than cute little loopholes. The loopholes, yeah,
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: they're already so op. Don't put loopholes, they're so op.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: That's the one thing that bothers me most I think
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: about the last battle is like just you skimming? Yeah,
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: like it's all all have to do here is say
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: Shanel refused to change the gateway this time? This time,
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: did the gateway dwindle to a vertical silver slash and
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: wind again into a skimming platform.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: Well that wouldn't work for an army of ten thousand people.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: No, it wouldn't.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: But again, their op deal with the fact that they're
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: not going to be perfect.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: Or here's another way you deal with it. You have
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: everybody go back through the gateway into Camelin and then
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: gateway back out to the location, right, because you can
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: form a gateway from Camelin where the initial gateway comes from.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, maybe just go back into the city you're.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: Defending, yes, and then gateway out for Yeah, you.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: Could drop off all the wounded, everyone who's shit their
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: pants because they were terrified, Like you know what you
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: do anyway.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying it would have been a little bit. Yeah,
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: she didn't. She shouldn't have closed the gateway and opened
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: up a new one on the spot. To me, that
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: feels wrong. But the rules of gateways change from here
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: on out is really all I want to say, Like,
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: I want to point out that there was this rule
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: that you had to be in a location, you had
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: to know the location. Holding the power may have sped
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: that up a little bit, but it didn't just override. Yeah,
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: and opening Gateway into a place didn't immediately teach you
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: how to get out of it.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the rules are contradictory and come on board at
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: different times. And it's really starting to show at this
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: point that little error that was like not a big
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: deal a few books ago, Like we've been going long
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: enough now the error is accumulating and we have drift.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Gateway magic is not the same as it used
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: to be.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, all right. So we have a funny moment
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: here where Burgita is like, well, we're gonna have to
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: be as lucky as Matt Coffin. Elane's like that is
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: a nonsense statement, and Brigida says, do you realize the
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: books that you're in? And Alien says absolutely not, I
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: am not in a book, and Brigadis says, okay, well
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: that's nice, and they move on. But it's really funny
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: because brign is like, don't you ever hang out with
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: that when he's dicing, Alien's like, why on earth would
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: I do that? He's like, well, that's your problem.
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: That calls back to when Agwayne is telling Ninive and Elaine,
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: when you're looking for the bold Winds, use map literally
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: and they refuse to acknowledge that. And then obviously he
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: finds the ball for them in two or three different ways, right,
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: all on the same day.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she's got plenty of evidence to know he's lucky.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, just refuses to admit it and refuses to
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: think that there's anything about it.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: So a man couldn't have talents and attributes the US
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: girls that couldn't have God, yep.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: The Moon's, the Fox, the Triple Keys, and the hammer.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So Elaine watches the battle go in initiate. She
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: hopes that she's not consigning those men to their deaths
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: for nothing, so say we all, yeah, everyone is yelling
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: and killing. Elaine and Brigadi both stand on their horses
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: to see what's up.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: And this is where we have the crossbow, the effective
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: crossbow they have. I couldn't figure out if they have
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: the crank that Matt has. Matt hasn't introduced the fancy crown,
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: so this is just more traditional cross there's enough ranks. Yeah,
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: this why having enough ranks, they're able to fire rapidly
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: enough that they're they're not firing as rapidly as Matt does.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: So they have numbers, they have ten thousand truths.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: It is the pre Matt warfare. Right, this is still
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: quite effective. Crossbows have always been a very effective weapon
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: when you have enough people. What Matt is doing is
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: throwing gasoline on a raging fire with those cranks.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: And I do think that these people who have crossbows
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: are probably the half trained boys and old men.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: That because it takes a lot less training, a lot
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: less training. Yeah, if all of you are firing together,
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: it's a wall of death that's coming in waves, and
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: you don't have to hit someone directly?
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: Do you just have to You don't really have to aim. Yeah.
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: And also we get the point here that like the
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: bodies are packed to the people are passed so tightly
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: in the streets that there's literally not room for the
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: dead to fall down, which is horrifying.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: Bringing a Game of Thrones up again, right, the Battle
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: of the Bastards. Yeah, yeah, when that was that whole
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: scene where you know that a lot of people really
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: gave people a lot of fright where everybody's packed in
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: so tight and John Snow is literally suffocating in the
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: mass of bodies and he can't move. Yeah, it's such
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: a crazy so that that scene the claustphobic yet.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: Catastrophe claustrophobic, that's the word I thaid, catastrophic and claustrophobic.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's both, it's both. But that's what I imagine
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: here is that group of people where they're just you
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: can't even swing a sword, and so there's you and
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: there's death raining down on me from above. And at
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: some point, after half an hour of that, which is
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: a good long time, people started surrendering.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: Well. Actually, to circle back to the tangent about doctor
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: Michael Livingston, that was the battle that he was talking
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: about that he was relocating was a famous battle which
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: I'm so annoyed I'm forgetting about it. It's the Battle
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: of Agincourt and it was a Timothy shallow May movie
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: came out a couple of years ago about it, and
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: it's the way the battle goes down is all the
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: plate armored guys get tricked into running down into a
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: muddy field and then they just get absolutely stomped by
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: the smaller, more nimble force because they're stuck in the
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: mud and are like it's not quite Tolkien levels of
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: like the drowned swamps of men, but like it's in
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: that same spirit of like if you can get people
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: like incapable of using their own weaponry, well now it's
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: a completely different battle. Don't matter how well armored you
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: are if you're knee deep in the mud and can't
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: move and you've got.
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: People with those and arrows just raining death on you.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, and these guys, yeah, they're peas and a
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: pod sardined into the city streets, and like people are
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: falling down from above and just sort of getting like
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: stabbed on top. It's a crowdsurfing, but like murderous crowdsurfing,
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: and like the body literally can't even slip down to
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: the ground because it's like, oh, it's horrifyingya, half an hour,
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: hell of a sprint for these people to go through.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: A lot of people die in half an hour.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and then yeah, once people start screaming for quarter,
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: for mercy, for the white flag, like it spreads like wildfire,
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: because that is that is a sustained burst of horror
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: to put yourself through.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: M hm. And I'm sure some people who were calling
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: for quarter were killed, right, Oh, definitely. You know, you
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: see that in I think Saving Private Ryan did a
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: really good version of that when they finally reached the
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: beach and all these people come out in the German
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: surrender and the Americans just shoot them right, like, they
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: shoot a couple of them because they're like still high
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: on adrenaline, pissed, and like it's a total war crime.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: Right yeah, But it's because it happens. That's why it's
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: been defined as a war crime exactly. And Robert Trordan
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: even mentions it here like they are risking death in
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: the hopes of life by putting up their swords and
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: taking off their helmets and going into that defensive posture.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: They are risking being killed by someone who has not
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: yet registered what they're seeing and might swing before you
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: know their brain catches up to what they're seeing.
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: And a funny bit of trivia from saying Private Ryan.
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: But if you translate what the guy says, this is
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: something I've heard. He basically says, Oh, I'm a prisoner.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: They just made me cook. I'm innocent, right, Like I'm
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: not German, huh, And then they shoot him down anyway,
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: right because they don't.
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: Understand it, and it doesn't matter. You're killing everything, doesn't
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: been trying to kill you and eat Yeah, your brain
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: is operating several heartbeats behind your trigger finger m hm, yeah,
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: it's it's not good to be in close quarters combat.
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: I would say doing that sort of violence is just
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: bad for everyone. It's not a good time.
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: And stopping right, there's there's so much trust on stopping
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: is like, oh, don't shoot me, I give up? Do you?
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: Or are you trying to trick me? And what if
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: I turn away from you and we're not in a
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: good enough battle, you pick up your sword again and
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: start fighting again, right, Like, it's much safer to just
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: kill you and move on until there's enough people surrendering.
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: Right. And something interesting I learned again from the interview
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: with Michael Livingstone is that most people who die in
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: battle die at the end, like once they've broken Like
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: a lot of the deaths happen, Yes, after you've given
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: up and you're turning to run away and you're being
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: routed and you're attempting to extricate yourself from the bell.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: That's where most of the deaths actually happen. So again
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: it's like it's a war crime because it happens so often.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, right, yeah, and in this case, I think
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: that just the slaughter that happens for half an hour,
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: that's the that's probably most of the deaths rappening at
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: this point.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, it's it's bad. A lot of people die.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: But also, you know, everyone who doesn't die is able
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: to be folded into a land's army. So you know,
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: that's another good reason to be able to stop as
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: quickly as possible, because those are gonna be your allies tomorrow.
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: If the up higher ups during the time change the
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: payroll the right way, then these guys are gonna be
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: your colleagues.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: And a lot of these people are mercenaries too, so
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: a lot of these people have fought together, right, so yeah,
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: they don't want to fight and yeah, and then there's
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: the whole parent argument of like everyone who dies is
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: one last sword in Tarmanguid. Yeah, and and part of
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: all these books, right, all of this stuff leading up
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: to the last battle is uniting the world under our
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: main characters so they can lead the fight against the
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: dark one, right, and so for me, all of this
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: War of Secession Paren's slog, like, all of that stuff
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: that we had to get through is all about is
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: uniting armies underneath our characters who are on ran side.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And also a lot of what they're dealing with
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: is undoing dark friend plots that very specifically we're pitching
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: men against men like that's so often what the dark
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: friend near to our main good character was doing was
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: prompting conflict that would take out swords from the ultimate conflict.
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: But in a lot of ways, those conflicts are the
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: reason that our characters are rising to power. If the
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: institutions weren't undermined, if the people who were leading them
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: weren't kidnapped, assassinated, removed, then there would not be Our
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: characters have to be bad people to take over those countries,
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: because they'd have to murder the existing rulers. But the
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: Forsaken have already done that, right. Why does Rand get
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: to take over become King of Ilian because he kills well,
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: kills sam Al disposes of you know, Why does he
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: get to take over? Why does he get why does
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: Kinglin you know available for a lane because of Ravin.
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: No, the dark One's influence is the seeds of his
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: own defeat. I mean, that is a theme that is
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: repeated many times.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: Why why is a GWayne the ambulance seat? Because the
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: dark Ones split the tower and undermined it and destroy
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: the exist and that's why Suwan isn't the ambulance seat
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: right now is and that's why. But Agwayne's better. So
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: there's there's this whole thing about how I you know,
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: none of our characters would have risen the power if
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: the dark One wasn't trying to undermine society. And then
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: our characters came in and said, okay, okay, we're gonna
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: put that back together, just under me.
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, So now the battle's over,
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: and bring forth the prisoners. Arammella, Neon, and Alania. These
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: are the three who will never come to a Lane's side.
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: But the point of the spear for being on Araumilla's side. There,
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: they're they're the head of the snake, all right there.
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: And at this point she's going to tax them into
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: oblivion to repay.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: Not even taxing, she's fining them. She's like, you have
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: to pay for the whole war, knowing full well that
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: they've already double mortgaged on their properties.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: Is there a difference between government taxes and government finds.
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, taxes happened on a regular schedule. Finds happened. I'm
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: being pedantic, yes.
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: But when you pass a law to have a scheduled
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: repayment of fines, that kind of feels like that.
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: Taxation is a whole other can of worms. But she
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: also internally realizes that she is being spiteful and malicious
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: with this, like she is consigning them to bankruptcy and destitution,
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: knowing full well that she doesn't have to. She's just like,
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: I'm going to because fuck you, that's why. And it's
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: like that's that's not part for the government, right, because
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: fuck you, that's why.
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: A little bit, it's been interesting to look at the
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: countries where we have taken that attitude after a war
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: and how badly off they are.
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: All right, I want to escape back into the much
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: more pleasant I love period violence from like the pre
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: gunpowder days. Okay, let's just nothing explode.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: So we get the three sort of half unaffiliated.
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: Oh they're affiliated, they were just not affiliated as hard.
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: Right, so right, sorry, I should say Baron and shar and.
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: Carine, yes, and karand is great, the one where it
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: was the weird, lecherous old guy with the like super
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: tromptis granddaughter and he happened to suffer a seizure that
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: very morning by very lucky coincidence that I'm sure his
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: creepy ass granddaughter had nothing to do with at all.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: No, don't, don't we get a POV where she's like
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: pretending to be stupid but then she's like really actually
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: very smart.
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: And that was with Aaramella. I was through Aramla's POV.
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: But yeah, the.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: Fact that I thought we got her, I thought we
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: actually got Salves's POV for a second in that chant.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: So no, we don't, but it's very convenient, and so
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: she's able to very easily say I'm switching Allegiance like
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: it's she is able. Elaine is able to welcome her
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: warmly because she actually is literally unaffiliated because of her
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: grandfather's death. Uh. And then at the other two had
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: not published irrevocable commitment to Ara Millo, so they're able
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: to switch sides with minimal loss of face. But Elaina
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: is still like more skeptical of them than of Silvey's
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: because sylves is genuinely a new player in a way
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: that the other two aren't right, the.
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: Other two changed their minds. Sylves killed the man who
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: yeah supported her.
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean she does. It's not explicitly said,
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: but like the man was terrible to her and he
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: died at the most convenient time, like that woman absolutely
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: caused him to have a seizure or whatever.
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: And this is immediately followed by her asking to be
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: able to torture the other two for information.
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: I swear I'm trustworthy. Give them to me. My secretary
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: will convince them. Master Lunault, yeah, who like apparently uses
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: like binding chords to fuck people up. So I feel
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: like this is some sort.
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: Of like that's real torture, weird.
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: Like fucked up, Like I don't even know like what
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: you call that, but like it's bad, Like that's not
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: just like I'll rip out your fingernails. It's like there's
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: some sort of weird like kinky shit going on.
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: Like I don't know, but like, wasn't there that James
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: Bond movie that where he gets tortured with ropes? I
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: don't know, well, modern era, modern era, I have.
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: Not kept up with the Double oh seven franchise.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: What you don't enjoy a misogynistic action packed you've seen
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: one you see in a mask?
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I watched. I was forced to watch Goldfinger once
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: on like a communal bus ride, and I was like,
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: all right, cool, so that's old gins and I think
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: I saw Octopusy too. And then, uh, just because I
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: was kind of on a Daniel Crag kick for a minute,
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: I watched one of the Daniel Crag once because I
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: was just like, oh, I wonder like how this compares
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: to Goldfigure And I was like, yeah, okay, cool, been there,
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: done that, got the T shirt?
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: Anyway, Okay, interesting. Jack Lunault is a dark friend, obviously,
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: obviously the one who enjoyed.
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: No one who likes to torture people with rope and
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: is fine applying it to children, is not a torque print.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: And he's the one who carries the messages from Melar
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: and the Black Ajas sisters and helped im plans their escape.
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and that puts I remember. And then Elaine
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: thinks a little bit like, oh, Silveys, I got a
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: side eye your resume a little bit harder because you
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: had a fuck faith in your staff. Is that was
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: that an accident or was that because you're a fuck face.
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, he's the guy who basically frees them and
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: leads to the whole Elaine plot being kidnapped again.
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's bad dude. He's bad dude. And I don't
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: know if we ever get a good answer on why
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: Silvey's is associated with him, Like is she a dark
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: friend or does she just like bad people? Like, we
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: don't ever get a good answer to that. I mean
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: inclined towards the latter, but.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: I mean up to this point, he is with Aerrimilla, right,
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: he John uh Jack is with aero Milla. She uses
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: him to keep Nean under control. It's only after Elaine's
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: victory Sylvas takes something n he is employed Crossroads of
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: Twilight chapter.
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: I always assumed he was employed by her house and
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: she was just loaning him to Aramilla. That was my assumption.
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: But I guess that was just an assumption because like,
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: why would she have access to him in the aftermath
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: of Avermella getting captured? Why not someone else? Why is
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: he not his own freeman? I just assumed he was
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: on loan from the Silves's house.
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so, I mean he's a terror bonner who's a
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: specialist in torturer. What was he doing with Ara Milla
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: in Crossroads of Twilight chapter fifteen, seems to be with her.
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I just assumed that she was on loan
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: from house care.
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: And I mean he's a terror bonner and Oran.
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he's just some fucking nasty mercenary dude that
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: just gets hired by nasty royal houses or noble houses.
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: I guess I kind of assume he's a dark friend
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: plant in the Aramella camp, right, I mean.
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: I mean we I always was asking like, is there
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: a dark friend anywhere in this Like someone's got to
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: be like keeping this going from a dark friendly perspective
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: because we don't know of any dark friends in the leadership.
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: So yeah, maybe he was there mostly to just watch
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: and be the eyes on the ground, so that way
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: like intelligence to get shuttled appropriately.
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: And we don't really have a good reason for why
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: aram Milla was rebelling. She's this sort of weird, right,
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: you know, self involved.
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: She just wants the money, but like that's a bad
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: reason to teach a rebellion, right.
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: It really does seem like there's something else going on
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: in her camp, and I think that this guy might
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: be part of it, but there's so little information about
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: her rebel camp, but it's hard not to imagine that
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: there's not some dark friend forsaken influence.
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: And yet weirdly, Sylvy seems to be untainted by it
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: in the long run. She doesn't end up coming out
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: of the woodwork as like a bad person or like betraying.
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, no thing.
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: So it's very like, what do we have to grab
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: onto there's something here, But like, this guy's clearly doesn't
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: have the ear of anyone. He's not like whispering in
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: their ear like an advisor. He's just a torturer in
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: the background.
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: Like and I think this is just, you know, in
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: the same way that that Elaine employed Melar for a while,
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: I think Salvese employs this guy for a while.
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, that's weird. It's interesting how he seems to
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: be almost a very important lynchpin, but then he's sort
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: of just a middling level lynchpin that doesn't really do
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: a lot, but he does something.
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: And yeah, we see silves in a couple of crowds
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: of noble women, but there's no she doesn't really do
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: anything important after this.
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: No, she really felt like a lost effortunity. I was
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: so excited to see what was going to happen with her,
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: and then Sanderson was like, Silvey's who Yeah, exactly.
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, She's one of those characters who definitely felt I
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: feel like, fell off the She was.
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: Such an interesting, like dark version of Elaine, right, or
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: something like an interesting little foil that could have like
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: come out of the woodwork to like be you know,
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: dial in three point zero or something, but instead she
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: just sort of drifted off.
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I could have really seen her being the more
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: ruthless part of Elaine's rule, right.
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: Like, yeah, she needs someone ruthless and that's who she
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: is on the council or whatever. Yep, yep, yeah, I'm
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: gonna imagine that happens in the fourth age, that Silveys
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: becomes a trusted advisor because she is the ruthless one.
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to imagine that that's how their careers
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: go in the future.
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: But I do think it's really important that we note
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: that Master Lunault is a dark friend and is put
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: in a position of torturing people for information, and when
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: they give him dark friends to torture, he becomes their ally.
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: And that's why Elaine why the Dark Friends are freed
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: and how Elaine gets captured is because of this.
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: Asshole stabbed, not captured, but yes, well.
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I mean Melar has her captured. He's got
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: a knife to.
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: Her throat until for like five minutes, but.
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: Well until Brigito choots him.
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: We're talking about the jail break escape, right. Oh, maybe
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: I think you're conflating a couple of different instances because
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: there's the time that she goes down into the dungeon
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: and pretends to be a forsaken Yeah. Yeah, that time
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: she just gets stabbed. Brigita like shows up later. I
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: think Matt and Brigida show up together, is what that
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: one is. Because Brigita fails a lay and get freaked
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: out and they go running back and then like Melar
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: didn't take her, Melar runs away, he like stabs her
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: and then fucking bounces And that's part of why he's
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: able to come back and do the whole beheading Brigida
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: thing later is because he escapes, escapes.
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: Got it, got it, got it? Okay, But that's not
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: when that's not the betrayal here that he wasn't put
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: on the question. That's only later when they're captured.
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because I think that he does get deployed
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: to torture them later, like Silva's offers to take custody
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: of them now and the alien says no. But I
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: think she does allow torturer dude to interact with them
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: in her dungeons. I think I don't know. I was
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: sort of sleeping when I last listened to this part
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: of the next book.
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: Let me do a quick sure. Okay, so I am
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: mixing up two things, right, because there's the moment when
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: Melar Chyine basically all these people who she's captured in
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: this chapter are freed.
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and Lunaald is part of that happening.
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: Yes, but he is killed in the escape.
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: Yes, he does not make it. Melar makes it out,
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: but Lunaald doesn't.
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: Melar makes it out. Melar Chyine, Marilyn, and Falane escape, Cheesmul, Eldrith, Tamil,
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: and Lonaut sorry Tamile and Jack not are all killed. Yeah.
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: So in that escape, and then later Melar comes back
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: and does the whole taking Elayne captive.
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of dark friends who don't get
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: a lot of distinguishing features. At this point, I.
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: Do forget that those are two different incidents that there's
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: an escape and then they come back and capture her.
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's a lot. There's a lot of back
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: and forth. I mean, there's only three books left, but like,
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: my god, they are thick books.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: A lot happens the thick books, and there's also some
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: repetition in them as well. Right, That's the thing that
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: I've noticed is like there is a lot of like
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: both repeating what happens in earlier books and then also
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: just like, man, this thing with Melar happens twice.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, kind of like in this chapter, how we have
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: like two different sets of dark friended women screaming at
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: each other about who should defer to who. It's like
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: just now, let's just repeat that be just to drive
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: the point home. And yeah, Mellard gets multiple chances to
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: die or be killed, to kill or be killed.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: And then yeah, just the end of this chapter where
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: she's got nine out of ten houses and she needs
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: to figure out whether she is gonna have to you know,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: fight to get the tenth.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, basically everyone reads the room gives her the numbers,
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: and she gets to end the chapter in a much
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: more politically stable place than she started.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: The siege is over. The Siege of Camlin is over, right,
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: and this is sort of the.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's just a little epilogue to her power play.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: That's it. That a lot.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: We're going to take a break, chill with the furiic
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: Careed for the next chapter and have a cup of
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: coffee to wake us up. That's a really short chapter. Cool,
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: and then we will do that's only three page chapters
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: for me compared to a six page to this one.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: Oh and then yeah, we're back to resolving Camelin stuff.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: And then we'll resolve Camelin.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: Stuff, and then we resolve some Matt's stuff and.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: Then we do Careed again. Actually, Cree gets two chapters.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh yeah, I love Koreed. He's such a
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: fun pov. Elaine drew a deep breath. Now she had
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: nine of the ten houses needed. She was under no illusions,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: whatever Silveys's reasons. Lear and Kurund, we're trying to salvage
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: what they could by cutting themselves loose from a lost
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: cause and hitching themselves to one that suddenly appeared to
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: be rising. They would expect her to give them preferment
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: for standing for her. Before she had the throne, while
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: forgetting that they had ever supported Arimilla. She would do neither,
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: but neither could she reject them out of hand and
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: Trek Hand welcomes Barren, never warmly, though never that trekand
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: welcomes Anshar. Captain Gaybon. Get the prisoners into the city
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: as soon as you can. Armsmen for Koran. Baron and
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: Anshar will be restored their weapons and armor once the
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: proclamations have been sent out. But they can have their
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: banners back now. He saluted her and wheeled his bay,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: already shouting orders as she healed the gray toward Dylan,
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: who was riding out of a side street, followed by
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: Catalan and the three young fools in their gilded armor Silvys,
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: Leir and Korand fell in behind her and Brigida. She
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: felt no disquiet having themmed her back, not with a
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: hundred guardswomen at theirs. They would be watched very closely
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: until those proclamations were sent including Silvays. Elaine's mind was
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: already casting itself ahead. You're awfully quiet, Brigida said softly.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: You've just won a great victory, and in a few hours,
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: she replied, I'll learn whether I have to win another.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: That was a fun way to come by.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: Hey, action chapter victory, kudatakudi.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: Grad, kudigra udata whatever it is. Finishing up the Elaine
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: secession plot. I mean, we have one more, but she's
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: essentially done, right, that was the bulk of the finishing.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: She has just has the next chapter.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: Where she like, that's just a bit of wordplay.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: Buttons up, that's a little word play. Yeah, there's a
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: little bit of politics in that. I do think we
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: might want to combine the next two genires.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: We might, but we don't need to subject our audience
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: to that.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: No, we'll have that discussion afterwards. Thank you everybody so
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: much for joining us. I'm so happy to be back.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: I'm so happy to be married. I'm so happy that
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: the marriage. Yeah, the wedding is over. The marriage has
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: just begun. The wedding is over. Yeah, so happy the weddings.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, No, we've all been anticipating the post weddings stuff.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: We are glad to have you back. Welcome to October.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: It's amazing between I really do feel like about two
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: and a half years ago, I started a new job
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: and a new career, and my brain was trying to
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: figure that out. And then about a year ago I
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: started getting married and my brain was trying to figure
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: that out. And this is the first time in it
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: almost feels like two and a half years when I
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: don't have some major new life changing stress event going on.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: I'm not moving, I'm not changing jobs. I'm not getting married.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: I'm not doing something that's going to pull a huge
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: percentage of my time and attention. And that probably means
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: it's time to hyperfixate on a new hobby, stay tuned
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: for whatever new hobby seth or maybe an old hobby.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: I may get back into the crocheting or the brewing,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: or probably not the brewing. So I'm not drinking. But
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: it's not ADHD. It's autism.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: Come on, AUDHD is about to be scientifically defined it.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I'm sure. I'm sure, although I am
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: definitely about three conversations away from convincing never that she
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: has a little bit of autism and that her hyper
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: focus is people.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: I worked on her at the wedding, for fuck's sake.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: She told me something and I'd like, that's very autism
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: code of you, and she just looked at me.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: Because we'll be having this discussion, she's like, I'm autistic,
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: I'm social. I'm like, what if people are your special interest?
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's like a massive contingent, right.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: Because the thing is, you're not just social. You know
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: crazy amount of details about people you interact with on
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: a level that people who are just social don't bother learning.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: You study everybody in your life in a way that
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: is not normal.
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: Except within our circles because we're cool and flocking together.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: Because we're cool. Yeah, and so and she's like, oh
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: and now we've been like pointing out little things and
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: she's like fuck. And then yeah, and she's hot highly ADHD, right,
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: and so that that's very probability for a little bit
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: autism to going. You know, let's go begin.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: We don't have a good idea of the difference between
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: autism and ADHD really, like science is a very poor
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: understanding of what these things are, much less how they
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: are different. Are they different? No one fucking knows. So, like,
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: you know, all we know is that you two had
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: a fantastic wedding and seem like you're going to be
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: very happily married. So everyone can do the math themselves
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: on that.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: Well, and then the other thing is like Never's dad,
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: super autistic, autism, super genetic. Yeah yeah, So I mean
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: this is this is a man who like three D
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: prints me, fidget spinners.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, feathers, birds, flocks.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, as a way of like trying to interact and
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: be his Then he wants to play you know, board games,
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: that's his Like those are those are the ways he
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: wants to interact And like you were and such a nerd,
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: such a nerd.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: That's fantastic. Well, we're all very glad to have you back.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: It'll be interesting to finish up this book and and
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: all the summer energy and move on into like the
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: darker times of year in the first Sanderson book, and like, ah,
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: we're back after a whole break, and it's just like.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: I know, I I so, I've been, like I said,
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: I've been doing the Sanderson books. There's going to be
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: a whole different way of talking about Sanderson books, I
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: think than the.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: Like oh my god for real.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: Because there's just he doesn't hide things in the same
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: way that Jordan does, and there's just gonna be a
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: lot of oh my god, Brandon. It's like it it's
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: not gonna be as positive I think as some of
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: the other episodes.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: You're gonna have to get some rants out of the
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: way and then just be like refer back to the rant.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: We're not going into it again now.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: Right, right, right, right, We're not getting into it again
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: right now. It's gonna be because I just I got
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: to the Matt and the thing is like, there's the
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: Matt's backstory chapter, right, but that's actually only like three
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: pages at the beginning of one chapter, and it's dumb
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: and it's stupid, And he very quickly meets Varyn where
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: he doesn't need to write the backstories, right, and then
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: we can forget about it. Yeap.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're gonna be doing a lot more like like
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: I never let a page go by without highlights. I
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: think that's gonna happen once we get to the Sanderson books.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna actually be letting whole pages go by without
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: seeing anything I need to comment on in a way
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: that I cannot with Jordan's.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: Right, right, right, yeah, because I think there's just gonna
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: be a lot of details that what I find is, yes,
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: Sanderson will give you the same details, but then at
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: the end of the chapter he tells you what those
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: details mean, and so there's a lot less mystery to
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: it because we'll be like so, as he says at
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: the end of the chapter, this is what's.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: Going on, Like all that is in the future. But
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: it feels like I'm much closer future now that we're
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: past our break. That month long break was.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: Huge, huge, right, And now we're a couple of chapters
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: away from the end of book eleven, some of which
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: we're thinking about merging, right because we have these two
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 2: really short Furit Greed chapters. Right, I bet we could
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: combine the next two and then probably the two after that,
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: which means there's maybe three four episodes left in this book. Yeah,
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: and then we're done with Jordan.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: And we'll be done.
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: We've gotten a spring.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: It's yeah, yeah, no, it's yeah. You don't have a
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: big thing to anticipate anymore. But the transitions are gonna
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: still keep coming hard and fast.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they are there.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: We're speaking of transitions. Happy Equinox. We're actually recording this
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: non in October. We're recording this in September. Equinox just happens,
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: so we're officially into Northern Hemisphere fall.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: It is now darker than it's light. I'm getting to
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: pick up that up in the mornings. Yeah, I can
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: tell because when I get up in the morning, it's dark.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: When I go to work and I get to work
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: in the darkness.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yep. We have now crossed back into the other
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: side of the year, where the darkness is predominant except
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: for all of our people, lovely people done in Australia
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: mm hm and other places. But mostly I'm thinking of antipods.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: Religion, the three of you and ANDARKI.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: All right, well, let's turn off recordings. I think that
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: is going to be enough paying the as it's.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: Gonna be a chaotic episode. Welcome back to us.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, two hours on the NOTT.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: There we go.
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think you have to stop itching
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: about your phone just because we turned on recording. I
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: think that's.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: What's fun about my phone is that anyone who's seen
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: my old phone knows that I had this really cool
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: wooden case Travis and I had gotten for each other
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: like years ago, and yeah, they're really really cool. And
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: so one of the reasons I didn't want to transition phones,
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: aside from the fact that I hate change, is that
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't get to have that case anymore. And so
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: Brandon literally went on Etsy and like found another company
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: because and there was also some spatial things where the
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: lip on it wasn't tall enough to actually let the
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: screen protector be protected. It was a whole thing. So
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: I needed a slightly different case. But I wanted the
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: same vibe of like a wood burl with like marine
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: epoxy and paint pigment all swirled through it like that.
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: And he found me a company of some of people
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: who were doing the same thing and had the model
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: of phone that I was getting, and like got that
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: for me, and so I have, like it's still a
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: blue paint, unique wood cut phone, it's just slightly bigger
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: with a different pattern, and it's it's you know big now,
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: like literally there's so much storage. My old phone was
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: so stuffed to the gills and now it's like twenty
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: three percent full. It's just like, this is why I
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: need a new phone. I just hate change so much.
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: But speaking of change, mister Toulson, Yeah, how was it
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: to be back and the podcasting realm.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: Oh, very nice. I definitely missed talking to the microphone
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 2: every week. That's uh, It's funny how you sort of
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: it feels like it's a connection with the bigger world
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: in a way that when I'm not doing it, I
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: feel like I'm missing it. And I think it's the
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: same satisfaction that most people get out of social media,
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: right they post about social media, interact with people, and like,
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: this is my social media, right Like I long ago
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: left Facebook and Instagram is you know, I haven't posted
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: a picture on there in years and years and years.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: And so from my way, interacting with the world really
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: is talking into this microphone. And that's how I feel
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: like I'm part of the Internet, and the part of
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: the Internet that is the wider world, right Like, And
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 2: so without it, there's this weird feeling of disconnect where
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: I feel like somehow the world's passing me by. When
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: I'm not screaming into a microphone. It's it's weird and
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: it's odd. And I didn't realize that I would feel
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: that way until I took a longer break to do.
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: Why did I take that break again? Can you remind me? Yeah?
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: There was this camping trip out.
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: I got to hang out with Morgan right and her wife,
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 1: and and then Neil and Amanda were there. It got
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: really cold, at night. But like we had a good
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: time and yeah, that was it.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know it wasn't there something something right before
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 2: the camping tree?
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: Oh I remember, I remember there was a cake.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that was that was good. That was good.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: Before that, I remember some speeches.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, people might have said some things. They were dressed
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: really nice. The people were all dressed to the nines.
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: There was really nice table settings. There was a tent.
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: Oh, right, I got married. That's it. There was a tent. Yeah,
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: it was a big tent. I got married. I got married.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: I got got married.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: Did you get married?
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: Married?
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: So I'm extremely excited to announce. That's why. Obviously we
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: weren't on I don't think we hid that from anybody.
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: It was pretty pretty obvious out front and center. We
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: are on break because Seth's getting married.
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: Which was a lot of fun. I mean, we did
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: a lot of the planning ourselves, which I gotta tell
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: you is both awesome and awful at the same time. Right, Like,
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: it was awesome because we got to customize, you know it.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: Really it felt like we had our friends really came
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 2: out to support us. There was a lot less stress
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 2: in terms of not dealing with vendors and their issues
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: and whether or not they're going to show up. Like
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: there was just a lot of very nice things that
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 2: we didn't have to deal with, however, and we'd have
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: to spend nearly as much money right as we would
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 2: have if we had a lot of vendors. However, doing
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 2: it all yourself means that at the end of the
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: wedding on Sunday, when everyone else is gone home, you
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 2: still have to clean up. And I may have hurt
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: my back a little bit doing that. I don't know.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: It's just I overdid it. We and never both were
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: like I thought we had it almost done, and then
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: sort of on Sunday we realized, oh man, we have
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: more than enough that we thought we did. So Sunday
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: ended up being tough. But man, the wedding was amazing.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: I am so happy with what we did. I'm so
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 2: happy with I mean, huge shout out to Travis who
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 2: did the ceremony, which was amazing, absolutely fucking amazing. Amanda's jacket,
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: that jacket, yeah, oh yeah, he was. He was dressed
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: better than anybody except maybe Matt, my brother in law,
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 2: who was dressed ridiculously well.
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: There was a lot of dapper coming from that contingent.
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Great, vows A huge shout out to Amanda who
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 2: did Yeah, I mean basically took on the role of
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: wedding planner for free, just be.
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: Marshaled the forces and I managed that battle like she
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: was Matt Coffining all over it.
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she stepped up. I asked for her help a
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: little bit late later into the process, so we had
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: sort of had a lot of the preliminary planning done,
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: but then she We were like, hey, Amanda, help us
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: figure out what we haven't figured out, and she was like, Okay,
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 2: here's a list of things you haven't figured out and
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 2: need to address.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: The day of everything. Literally, the fields of merrill Or
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: were less organized than it was.
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: She was a laye in that situation. Yeah, Mahal of ceremonies.
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 2: It was fantastic. I don't think I could have done
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 2: it without Amanda taking the hell when she did and
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 2: stepping up and doing the work that she did when
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: she did, which is not definitely like her and Neil
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 2: did a ton of work. You know. Never, I'm not
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 2: going to list off all the people and Never's family
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: who you know went above and beyond, because you guys
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 2: don't know them.
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: But yeah, Brandon also got ended up getting quite involved
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: because I recruited to like go off with you and
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: Lazel at that one point, and then like I come
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: back and Brandon is like elbows deep and like putting
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: the lighting up on the tent because like he just
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: couldn't stand watching people like do it wrong. So he
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: was like, ah, God, let me in the REMNT engineer,
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: and like it's putting up all the lights.
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: And I depend on having that level of friends who
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: are like, no, we have to do this right. And amazingly,
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 2: like so much was done just absolutely perfectly, like I
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 2: I you know.
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: And then we had to emergency move the venue. The venue,
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: but like we had everything all set up, all the
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: chairs set up down to the lawn, and then Oregon
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: was like, you know what I'm gonna do randomly is rain,
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: And so then we had to like everyone in their
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 1: nice clothes is like carefully like dragging chairs up into
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 1: the tent and then wiping them all down because they're
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: covered in grass. Oh my god. It was. It was
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 1: a labor of love. It was was a major labor
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: of love, and it was definitely hilarious to be like
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 1: you guys are throwing a party for all of us
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: and yourselves, and also you're the focal point like yeah,
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: god damn and add dam.
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: And this big party. Yeah, it was a big party.
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 1: It was a big party and a beautiful venue like
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 1: the outdoor camping wedding, Like everyone should do an outdoor
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 1: camping wedding. I don't understand why anyone would do an
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: indoor wedding at a hotel like go camping. It's vastly superior.
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it made it made all the decorating easier because
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: it was just natural, beautiful backgrounds. It made the fact
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 2: that the people who didn't want to spend a lot
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 2: of money could just pop a tent, right.
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was great.
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 2: It was great, you know, and you have to get
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 2: a hotel or any of that kind of crap, and
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 2: you know, you have to be so a lot of
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 2: people did get air and Airbnb's nearby or stayed in
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: the hotel nearby.
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: But yeah, like I got to camp in the same
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: campsite with liesel, Like we got to talk and just
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: go out like fantastic, you know, like a bottle of
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: tequila and a box of beer, just sitting on our
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: shared campsite bench, and just like we just got to
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: have that whole like separate little vibe as like just
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: like as you do at any camping party. And it
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: was just a very nice like piece of the socializing
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: to have that smaller little bubble off tucked away behind
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: these BlackBerry bushes with Liesel and her friend.
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, and Liesel if you don't remembers, the one
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 2: who's made my worder cloak, and she did one guest
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 2: appearance early on in the show, and I did a
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 2: terrible job with the sound on that episode, so sorry,
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Liesel. Early on, when I was learning lessons
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 2: about recording multiple people and how to do that, I
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 2: just had us both sitting near like equal distance from
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: the microphone, and we're both there we will sound awful.
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, yeah, it was really good to get
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 1: to meet her and hang out with her in person
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: and get to talk about sewing machines and all kinds
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 1: of stuff which, like everyone who who has been listening
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: to the feed will have heard at this point in
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 1: the timeline. By the time this episode gets published. A
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: teaser for my new podcast Used to Sew, which is
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: all about sewing machines so I've had sewing machines on
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 1: the brain and Liezel is all about sewing machines. And
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: so even though we exist in very different worlds, within that,
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: it was very fun to like get to indulge in
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: that hyper focus. That had nothing to do with the
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: wedding whatsoever. It was just a random coincidence of hyper
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: focus and that was very cool.
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 2: Come mind, that was you know, the Wheel of Time
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 2: hyper focus.
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 1: Yes, and then there is that for sure, the common baseline,
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: But no, I mean really, there was only six people
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 1: there who knew about Wheel of Time. Everyone else was
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: like there for other reasons.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right right, you know, but actually there's more people
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 2: there who had read Wheel of Time, you know, right,
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: Like the father and mother of the groom have both
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: read Wheel of Time and know all about it. Right.
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 2: They're not the big fans that we are, but they
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: are the one that I was like, oh, I know,
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 2: I do this thing on the Wheel of Time. They're like, oh, yeah,
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 2: we've read that. And there's a bunch of other people
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 2: who were there who have at one point or another.
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 2: I've talked to them like oh yeah, we've read Wheel
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: of Time. We're just not fans of it. The way
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 2: you people are.
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. And I actually watched parts of the
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 1: video today. I like finally got around to watching parts
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: of the of the wedding ceremony, and of course I
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: watched you know, my part first, because of course, and
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: the amount of people who were laughing at my Wheel
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: of Time remos. Oh yeah, it's way more wides spread
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: throughout the body of the group than I thought it was.
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: I thought it was just a few people. But like
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 1: the word the camera microphone was positioned, I could hear
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: the whole crowd. Was like, oh shit, there's people laughing,
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: like in a complete like all the way around there
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: are people chuckling.
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: Well, and of the people who are certainly the people
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 2: who don't know about Wheel of Time that know me,
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: know about my life, there's yeah, yeah, so there is
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 2: the it's entirely possible that that's they were laughing about that,
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 2: and they know that you're my podcast co host, and
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 2: like there's like the connection there of it was. It
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 2: was it was really funny. Yeah you knew about this,
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: people were laughing. I was so happy with the speeches.
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: Oh my god. We had we had like what five
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 2: six speeches, and they were all just great. You know,
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: so everyone's wanting you go to an event and someone
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 2: speaks and you're like, oh, let him be up there,
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 2: you know, like and we didn't have one of those,
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 2: which was great.
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 1: Everyone was great.
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 2: Everyone was fantastic. Everyone hated vollouing Rio. I think my
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: vows were really good.
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 1: I think that they were fantastic.
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 2: I was written on both sides were amazing. I really
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: enjoyed those.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, it was so great. I loved getting
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: to be part of that and like getting to be
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: on stage with you and just watching like Never and
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: her whole cohort like responding to you was just like
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: like you're reading your vows and just like like clockwork,
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: each one of the like nine bridesmaids are just like
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: sniffing in order, just like they're all being destroyed like
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: your vows. And it was just so precious and so lovely.
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 2: Never has so many friends, or is all. She's got
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 2: four sisters and a three sisters and a brother, right,
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 2: so this four sisters total, right, and then best friends
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 2: that she makes very easily because she is a lovel person.
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 2: So yeah, she had a bunch of people up there
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 2: who wanted to support her.
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 1: And then I got Timmy Chloe. Yeah, like you know,
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 1: the whole that bitch is always late. Connection was like, aha,
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: now I have a face to like put to the
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 1: to the boys. This is this is good, this is excellent.
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 2: Hello.
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 2: And that was one of my favorite parts about the
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 2: wedding is just how many people I was able to
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 2: get together in my life. I mean I had people
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 2: from college show up, which is you know for me,
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: you know some people low college, no for me, I
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: mean that was twenty plus years ago, right, Like that
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 2: was two thousand and four that I graduated. So having
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 2: college friends willing to come back after all this time
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: to you know, family, to the wheel of time, people
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 2: to the people, to people from work, right, I had
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 2: some work folks show up to you know, never's friends
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 2: that I've made and that that are here. And it's
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 2: just it's crazy to look at all these slices of
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 2: my life come together. And I had no idea how
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 2: to mask among all those people from different parts of
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 2: my mask. But yeah, it was very, very difficult because
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 2: I didn't know which which I just put on the
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 2: I Love Never mask and stuck with that one.
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 1: Which is all anyone wanted to see.
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 2: But it was it was. I did find it hard
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 2: to interact with some of my friends from college because
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 2: you know, there's certain things that like I don't do.
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 2: I don't drink anymore, and they were the people that
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 2: I drank with, and they don't really drink anymore because
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 2: they have kids, but we still kind of talk about
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 2: drinking together because that's what we did together. So it's
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 2: weird and hard to do. And I'm like, oh, yeah,
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: you have you have teenagers, right, what's that like?
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean that's kind of the trippy thing about
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 1: getting married at your ages. You have a lot more
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 1: of your life, like happy, You've a lot more slices
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 1: of life to bring together. And also everyone else has
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 1: similarly added so many slices. Like if you get married
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: in your mid twenties or whatever, like in theory you
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 1: have less, but like you are not in your mid twenties.
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of people like like, look, never is
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 2: coming out. She's got a lot of friends. We're gonna
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 2: get married in the next couple of years. And they are.
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 2: They graduated from college at twenty two, they've been dating,
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 2: they found someone they love, and they've been with them
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 2: for four or five years. After college and they decided
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 2: it's time to You know, a lot of people do that.
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 2: They get out of college, find or in college, find
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 2: somebody who they love, and then they kind of have
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 2: like the college friends, the family, and maybe a little
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 2: bit of slice of life after that. Right. Yeah, but
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 2: I feel like, I, you know, that's enough slices. I
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 2: have a lot of life that happened.
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Oh thanks, Oh hello missus toulss Toulson.
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 2: Everybody says she shows up the ring, I love you. Oh,
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 2: no one's seeing video because I haven't actually shared video.
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 2: My bad. Anyway, moving on.
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what the fuck else? You guys all fed us
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 1: great too, thank you. I mean, obviously the cakes were
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: fucking divine, like holy shit, but like the rest of
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 1: the food was good too, Like you fed us well, yeah,
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 1: which was nice.
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 2: We tried to and you know, we tried to make
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 2: sure that there was enough food for everybody and enough
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 2: booze for everybody to at least have a good time.
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 2: You know, I don't think there was We ran out
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 2: of beer pretty early. I think we could have bought
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 2: more beer. I think we could have bought more Seltzers,
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 2: But there was plenty of wine, you know, we didn't
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 2: run out of alcohol for sure.
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 1: No, no, I definitely had too many of those margaritos.
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, oh it never made those pre mixed drinks.
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 2: So yeah, we did our best to just make it
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 2: an easy, easy, easy wedding for people to go and
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 2: enjoy it.
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 1: And I loved your little guest book thing with the polaroid.
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: And then I'm just like, god, damn it, I want
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: to get married again. There's so many cool ideas here.
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 2: Never thought of that one because we have the polaroid camera,
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 2: so we just bought a bunch of extra film, and
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 2: so yeah, everyone took a snap. We asked people to
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 2: snap a selfie with polaroid, put it in the guest book,
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 2: and then write a message next to it.
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 1: Oh my god. And then so I had the hardest
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 1: time figure out how to use them because I was
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 1: literally like six years old the last time I used one,
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: and Brandon and Neil were like ganging up on me
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: to make fun of me for like being confused about
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 1: how to put the new cartridge in, and then the
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 1: picture I ended up taking, I looked like the most
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 1: triple chinned, fucking asshole monster ever. Like it's just such
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: a fucking like disaster. Like, so you're welcome.
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 2: I love it. It's my favorite. And then what Never
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 2: has been doing is like she's taken our vows and
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 2: paste and put them in the guest book, like the
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 2: note cards we wrote them on, and like a bunch
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 2: of other sort of mementos from the wedding, because the
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 2: guest book only ended up filling up the first like, yeah,
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 2: thirty pages. It's a big guest book, and it's you know,
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 2: probably the first third of it's maybe full of notes, pictures,
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 2: and stuff. So adding all the other stuff to the end,
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 2: we have this really nice notebook that we then get
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 2: to keep as a memento and look through for the wedding.
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 2: On top of the video, we've got a really good
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 2: video about an hour long of the ceremony. A lot
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 2: of people took pictures and have uploaded them, and also
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 2: we've got professional photos still being processed, so I haven't
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 2: seen those yet, but I'm looking forward to those.
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely looking forward to those. It was just
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 1: get to see the procession come down the hill and
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 1: like all that. It's just like, oh, yeah, that's what
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 1: we look like.
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: Like I mean I saw the whole like you know,
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 1: photography like sessions going down, and I love to tell
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: your guys's color scheme was just a riot of color.
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 2: It was.
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 1: It was fantastic. My brother went for rainbow. That was
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 1: their theme for their wedding, so everyone was wearing like
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 1: a rainbow themed stuff, but you guys went with a
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 1: different kind of rainbow. It was just this like midsummer
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 1: wild flower like bouquet sort of thing, and it was lovely.
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 2: It was supposed to be a theme of sort of
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 2: a green, lavender and burnt orange, right, sort of just
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 2: like pastel versions of those were kind of what we
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 2: asked people to wear, but like there's enough variation in that,
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 2: Like some people went with more of like a burgundy,
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 2: some people went with more of an orange the green,
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 2: some people went with more of a blue green. Like
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 2: so when you looked at all the colors, it was
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 2: this sort of actually very almost I said, eye display. Yeah,
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 2: the bridesmaids had like, well there were seven bridesmaids. Actually
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 2: should go back and look. I bet there's like god
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 2: Jack colors on the bridesmaids. I bet we can to
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 2: sign it because I mean obviously never was in light.
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 1: It was a lot of purple, So there was a
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 1: lot of oranges, which are two colors Jordan didn't use
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 1: for the ajas.
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 2: Remember orange is just light brown.
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sure whatever. I got a lot of compliments on
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 1: my choice of green, which was one hundred percent Travis.
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 1: Like the first one was like, hey, Travis, do you
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 1: think you should Very's like, you should wear green? You
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 1: should you should wear this exact dati of green. I
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 1: think that that would be look really good with the
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 1: color of your hair. And I got exactly that because
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 1: never questioned a gay man when he tells you what
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 1: to wear. And I got so many freaking compliments on
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 1: that exact shade of green, and I was just like,
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 1: it's all Travis. I mean, look at the man in
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: the black silk brocade jacket of glory, Like he told
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 1: me to dress this way. I take no responsibility.
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 2: And he was with me for every step of the
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 2: way in my suit picking decision.
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 1: And you looked absolutely dapper and never just looked fucking gorgeous.
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I never was gorgeous.
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 1: Him and Timber managed to hold his shit together at
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 1: least the first third of the ceremony before like completely
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 1: melting down and needing to go take a nap.
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 2: Poor pussy. He didn't understand why everyone wasn't giving him
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 2: attention and giving him treats.
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 1: And mom and dad are super stressed out and super busy,
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 1: and like, yeah, he he he had to. He had
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 1: to make a scene and be the most upset about
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: the wedding of ever. Like nobody in the human family
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 1: had any serious drama, but my god, Timber had enough
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 1: drama everyone.
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 2: You know what, I barely even heard it. I was
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 2: so focused on the ceremony that like I sort of
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 2: like did a little thing at the beginning, and then
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 2: like I was kind of like, oh, yeah, I think
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 2: he's whining a little bit, but like I totally tuned
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 2: it out at that point.
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No, for sure, you were very focused on more
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 1: important things, like the absolute angel you were marrying.
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 2: But yeah, it's been nice. When now that we're married,
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 2: people are like, well, what's it like being married? I'm like,
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 2: pretty much exactly the same. But there is a certain
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 2: amount of I guess my whole life, you sort of
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 2: grow up and you're always had this idea of like
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 2: who I'm going to end up with, what's my you know,
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 2: you're sort of always on the lookout. There's a side
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 2: even when you're into like a permanent relationship. It's not
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 2: a big side eye, but you're always sort of considering
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 2: like is this a relationship I need to get out of?
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 2: Is this? You know? You're always evaluating it on that level.
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 2: And now there's just no pressure, right, And there's this
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 2: weird part of my brain that's always been considering like
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 2: how do I find somebody permanent? I don't have to
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 2: do that anymore.
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 1: Right, how many spoons have you regained that you just
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 1: always had devoted to something else?
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 2: Right? Right? Right, there's a certain certain amount of weight
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 2: getting off that you didn't even know you had timbers
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 2: in the room. In case you can't hear.
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't hear. Yeah, No, for sure. It's like
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm a big, big believer and try before
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 1: you buy, Like getting married should not be a massive
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 1: upheaval to you know, existence, but like, yeah, it does
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 1: take a load off to be like, well, now that's done,
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 1: I have checked that off my to do list. Massive
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 1: dopamine hit, you know, like.
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, people asking about the name change. I am still
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 2: definitely getting used to that. No, he waits for me
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 2: to start talking before he's making his noise.
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 1: He needs to be the center of attention.
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 2: You gotta see him down there.
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he's lying on the floor.
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, this is when this is always when he makes noise.
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 2: He's always on his back like this.
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 1: Timber. You know you've been cartoonified, right doggo.
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, definitely Timber. But that's his happy noise. That's
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 2: like when he's happy, he just rolls around making that noise.
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, changing the name, Go get into changing the name.
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 2: What a fucking pain in the ass just getting started
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 2: on the process, even though the process is pretty easy, right, Like,
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 2: it's just so many steps with so many different agencies.
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 2: And then on top of that, just like my emails
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 2: my old name. Do I keep the Gmail account? No,
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 2: I've got a new one. How do I migrate all
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 2: that stuff? Over? Right? I'm finding the migrating of the
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 2: name is a death by a thousand cuts. It's a
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 2: pain in the ass because so many things are tied
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 2: to your name, right, Like.
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: I've been bitching about how changing my phone has been
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 1: a pain in the ass. Yeah, And when I changed
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 1: my name, I was eighteen, So if I really didn't
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 1: have that many things that I was attached to I
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 1: can only imagine.
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, Jacobsen will be with me for the rest
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 2: of my life. I will never leave that name behind.
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 2: It's impossible, It's really impossible. Yeah, However, I'm just I'm
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 2: kind of excited to stop being mistaken for somebody who's Jewish. Sure,
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 2: it's like I know that that's like a terrible reason
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 2: to want to change your name, but like so often,
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 2: I just had a realization that I was put with
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 2: my college roommate because they thought he was Jewish and
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 2: they thought I was too, you know, Like I realized
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 2: this now twenty years later, that that was something that
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 2: was done because of my last name. And it's like
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 2: that feels wrong. Like I was invited to a lot
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 2: of bar mitzvahs when I was thirteen, you know. But
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 2: also I've also had some anti Semitic shit slung in
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 2: my face because people thought I was Jewish, right like,
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 2: and they were using what they thought was a button point.
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 2: But like just having a name that that is so
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 2: very very Jewish was very weird for me and felt like,
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 2: you know, stolen valor type situation.
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's like not your culture.
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 2: It's not my culture at all. Yeah, not in the slightest,
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 2: you know. I remember even Amanda when she met me,
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 2: the first thing she asked me was, Oh, are you Jewish?
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 1: I was like, no, yeah, no, that's oh, that's for sure.
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 1: Like the name Seth Jacobson's streams.
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 2: Streams right, And I'm not brown hair, you know, I
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 2: had curly brown hair, brown eyes, you know, the decently
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 2: pointy nose, right, like all of the features that are stereotypical. Yeah,
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 2: it's anyway, it's such a weird thing that people associate
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 2: with me all the time that I sort of because
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 2: it wasn't true. It's good be a long time to
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 2: realize it was even happening.
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean why would you be
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 1: aware of that? If you have no Jewishness in your culture?
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: Why would you be cued into that?
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 1: Like right right, You're gonna have to learn it from
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 1: that outside inference. And yeah, no, that's I can definitely
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: see where you you have had a serious lack of
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: I mean everyone has a lack of agency over their name.
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 1: Like we all start out with a stock name that
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 1: someone else gave us. There's no agency. But like even
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 1: more than most people, you are really like gaining some
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 1: agency by not just taking a new name, but like
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 1: invent your own name, like which is so cool. It's
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 1: just so cool. But you're like, no, no, no, I
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 1: am completely completely undoing this weird feeling and starting.
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 2: I jordanized our names, right. Look at what he did
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 2: in origins. He took a bunch of names, smushed him together,
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 2: changed some vowels, and that was how he named things.
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, what if I do that
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 2: to our last names. I'll take rtallic and Jacobson and
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 2: take the talel and take the tll and the son
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 2: smushed them together. Let's twlson. Let me change the vowels
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 2: around like Jordan does Toulson. Yeah, I jordanized our last names.
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 1: It's fantastic. It's very very cool and unique. Though I
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 1: do think I'm very happy with it. You missed out
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 1: on jack o Lac. I think I think Travis is
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 1: right that jack Alac would have been amazing.
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 2: The jack Lac was. I mean, I argued for it.
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 2: I will be perfectly honest, I argued for it. I
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 2: said we should do this, it would be awesome. People
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 2: would always remember our names. And never was like, no,
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 2: you're that's funny, that's a funny joke, and I was like, no, no, no, no, no,
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 2: like like, let's go out on a limb here and
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 2: let's try for it. Let's see what the consequences of
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 2: Jack black would be. It was no, absolutely not, absolutely not.
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 2: It was shot down so fast. Well, I mean because
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 2: at some point when you're thinking of last names, right,
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 2: you go off the deep end for a while.
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 1: No, yeah, for sure, you're throwing everything at the wall
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: to see what everything.
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 2: At the wall, to see what sticks. Right. There was
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 2: all sorts of combinations. There was new names, There was emotions,
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 2: you know, And it was particularly hard with Never's first
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 2: name being never, because then any sort of word you
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 2: have to associate, Well, what happens if you put never
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 2: before me?
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 2: Also looking at like initials, right, making sure you're not
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 2: doing anything weird with the initials spelling out anything odd.
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No. I know someone recently who just had to
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 1: get rid of a last name idea because it would
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 1: have made their initials KKK. And they were like, well,
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 1: that's categorically not gonna happen.
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 2: Then, I like that Never's is I N T for
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 2: either intelligence or integer, depending on how nerd you are
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 2: or what kind of nerd do you are?
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know that that appeals to multiple factions of
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 1: the nerddoms.
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 2: I've got S J T, which doesn't really do anything
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 2: unless you like make the S an integral and the
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 2: J you know, J T. Yeah. Sure. If if I
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 2: changed to a W last name, I could have been
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 2: SJ W Warrior. But but my my, my short initials
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 2: S T I mean street.
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, No, that's fun, that's fine. I mean a F, like,
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 1: that's my short a F.
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 2: I love that you're a radio AF, that's for sure.
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 2: Oh st st st Yeah, yeah, St Julian.
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: Names. Names are Names are hard. As we've established on
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 1: this podcast, names are hard.
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 2: But and that's why we're spending so much talking about
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 2: this one.
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but you powered through, and.
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 2: You know, never is really excited to have a name
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 2: that no one's ever going to really misspell or mispronounce.
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, yes, given her last name, yeah, name was well.
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, I know how it goes. You have your
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 1: whole little song and dance, you have to roll it
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 1: every time you meet someone. And now it's a different, shorter,
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 1: less complicated song and dance.
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 2: We still have to probably we're gonna have to spell
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 2: it for people is gonna be and the double L
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 2: like toll people like one L or two.
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 1: Yes, for sure, for sure. Yeah, my maiden name had
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 1: one of the little distinguishments. It's like, I don't know.
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 1: Now I have a very simple last name that has
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 1: no variations.
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 2: It's nice and this and this name last name feels
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 2: a little more Swedish to me, I think than our
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 2: previous Oh.
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is very Swedish, very Scandinavian.
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's something that both me and never have
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 2: in our background. Is like I think my mother is
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 2: half Swedish and her she's got some like Irish Swedish
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 2: or her too. Results So that's sort of the one
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 2: thing that I feel like we share in common, which
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 2: is a good way to sort of anchor that name
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 2: in the Swedish tradition.
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 1: It sounds like an old name, but it's actually a
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 1: new name, but it is in the spirit of an
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 1: old name name. Yeah, yeah, no, I love it.
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 2: And because it's a new name, I bought Toulson dot com,
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 2: which means you can now email me Seth at Toulson
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 2: dot com if you want to get a hold of me,
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 2: and I'll be able to buy that for the kids.
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 2: The kids will have their name at Toulson dot com.
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 1: Oh, we're being corrected by a nerd. Sun is Swedish,
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 1: Sin is Danish Norwegian. That actually makes sense because I
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 1: have a Sin in my family and they are Danish,
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 1: so that Scandinavia is all the.
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 2: Same, right right, yes, it's according to me.
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's not like a bunch of tiny, little
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 1: isolated community separated by absolute and murderous nature that like
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 1: each developed their own cultures.
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 2: Which is funny. The Jacob Son the son doesn't come
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 2: from the Swedish part of my heritage. It comes from
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 2: my dad's side, where he was adopted. And I don't
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 2: even know where it comes from.
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of people who have brought
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 1: the concept of being a son of Jacob into their
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 1: naming conventions across the centuries. For some reason, it permutated
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 1: a lot of different ways through various European cultures.
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 2: Fair enough, fair enough? Yeah, yeah, so yeah, I really
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 2: don't know the origin of that name. And you know,
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 2: it's funny, as both of our fathers were adopted, right,
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 2: both of your father So there is both of our
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 2: fathers have been adopted.
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't know that about her.
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's bonkers, so we both of us, don't. It's
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 2: like long name family tradition of one generation, you know.
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, whereas I took on a family name that yeah,
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 1: I've finished to follow it back in the genealogy quadways
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 1: or it just literally comes from the UK, which is cool.
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 1: It's been a ramp, but yeah, no, having it just
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 1: start like that is Yeah. It makes sense for you
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 1: guys to just be like, nah, real square zero and
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 1: then the square square zero, yeah, square.
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 2: Zero, which I mean, I guess if everyone keeps resetting,
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 2: we'll never get anywhere.
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 1: But you know, this is how names have always been
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 1: been created. It's like you can argue, but if numbers
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 1: are discovered or invented, there is no such argument about names.
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 1: Names are one hundred percent invented. It's all arbitrary, so
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 1: yay agency.
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 2: Oh that is an interesting debate. Is math discovered or invented?
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 1: I love listening to people argue about it because it's
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 1: so far beyond my ability to comprehend. I'm just like whatever,
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 1: the most compelling argument I heard last is probably correct,
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 1: Like I know this about myself.
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 2: Like because natively, I would say math is discovered. But
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 2: once you get into the edges of where math kind
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 2: of fails and is like defined as like self contradictory,
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 2: it's really interesting to be like, no, this is an
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 2: invention by people and it's flawed, just like people are flawed. Yeah,
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 2: and so I really love math and I really think
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 2: it is something that's natural and discovered and the rules
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 2: are sort of self referential in a way that always works.
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 2: But like, yeah, once you get past a certain point,
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 2: math is philosophy.
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah. One of my grandfathers is deeply involved in the
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 1: philosophic edges of defining measurements. How do we know when
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 1: we've measured something? And what is a meter?
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 3: Like?
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 1: He is like deep, deep, deep off in the philosophical
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 1: deep end of that stuff. It goes to conferences in prisons,
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 1: papers with titles that I cannot parse, like it's weird shit.
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 2: I think the first time I ever felt that, the
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 2: first time I ever really felt that deep is when
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 2: someone said, okay, I was in class. They said, okay,
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 2: my shure with this the ruler, and I said, okay,
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 2: it's you know, between these two marks, and they said, okay,
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 2: now give me a more exact Well, I need a
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 2: more exact ruler, and it's the idea that like, no
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 2: matter how exact a ruler is, it's always going to
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 2: be between two marks, it's never going to be exactly
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 2: at one of those marks.
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and if you're studying quantum mechanics, that's a very.
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 2: Significant problem, right right right.
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, or astronomy. I mean honestly the other way around too.
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 2: But I mean, actually, if you're studying quantum mechanics, that's
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 2: actually a real feature of it.
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, but it's it's it's why it's confus using it.
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 1: It's like no, but like did we invent this or
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 1: did we discover it? Because uhhit's getting a little frayed
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 1: down here.
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 2: Well, and we talked about just I mean, space and
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 2: time seem to be emergent phenomenon. They don't seem to
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 2: be fundamental.
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 1: Right, which is like you think on that very hard
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 1: and you start feeling like you're on three hits of acid.
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 2: Wait wait, wait, time is not real just my perception.
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 2: I just perceive it because I exist inside a universe.
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 2: But it's more most likely an emergent phenomenon of entropy,
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 2: Like wait, what the fuck?
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 1: Like yeah, it's like I am gonna go eat some
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 1: ice cream now, Yeah, get grounded in my body because
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 1: what the fuck was that. Thank you for listening to
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 1: the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast. Please rate and review
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 1: us on your podcast app and consider supporting us on
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 1: Patreon for ad free episodes. Watt Spoilers is a production
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 1: of Fox and Raven Media. For more podcasts from Fox
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 1: and Draven Media, visit our website at foxndravenmedia dot com.