Latest / Small Ship Cruise Talk: River Cruises, Yacht, Barge and Expedition Cruising Tips & Travel Planning Advice / Young Travelers are Missing Out On Small Cruises w/ Noël Burgess

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Young Travelers are Missing Out On Small Cruises w/ Noël Burgess · Small Ship Cruise Talk: River Cruises, Yacht, Barge and Expedition Cruising Tips & Travel Planning Advice

0:00
UNKNOWN: Thank you.
0:01
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Small Ship Cruise Talk, a show where we share insider tips and first-hand experiences about this outstanding, yet lesser-known form of travel.
0:11
SPEAKER_01: We are passionate about sharing our knowledge about river cruises, expedition, yacht, and barge cruises, so you are informed when it comes to choosing your own vacation experiences.
0:23
SPEAKER_01: We're your co-hosts, Dan and Mikel, and we are your cruise experts and the co-founders of Sometimes Sailing, a website that focuses on small ship cruise Welcome to another edition of small ship cruise talk Today, we are extremely excited to have Noel Burgess with us.
0:43
SPEAKER_01: Now, we met Noel on a Riverside luxury cruise ship a couple months ago.
0:49
SPEAKER_01: We did.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: We were cruising the...
0:53
SPEAKER_01: The Rhine.
0:54
SPEAKER_01: The Rhine.
0:54
SPEAKER_01: The Rhine.
0:55
SPEAKER_01: Mikel usually says the romantic Rhine, so you went full-on German with it.
1:00
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
1:01
SPEAKER_01: It's a romantic Rhine, but we went up the Rhine.
1:04
SPEAKER_01: Excellent.
1:06
SPEAKER_02: I like that, actually.
1:07
SPEAKER_01: So through our conversations, we realized we have to bring you on and introduce you to our audience because you have a great perspective on the younger traveler as kind of being introduced to river cruising or small ship format cruising.
1:23
SPEAKER_01: I know our listeners are going to be really interested in that.
1:26
SPEAKER_01: So, Noel, if you could introduce yourself.
1:28
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
1:30
SPEAKER_00: So Noel Burgess, it's subtle G, so not guess or Jess, it's Burgess.
1:36
SPEAKER_00: So I like to joke it's a subtle G.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: Grew up in Connecticut, so New Englander, moved out to California about 10 years ago.
1:42
SPEAKER_00: I was in human resources for about 15 years.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: And then during the pandemic, like most of us, having a hard time and looked at my career and what I was doing and found that I was able to take those skills and move them into more of the multimedia storytelling aspect.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: So I focus mostly on food, beverage and travel, how brands can reach younger and broader consumers And then also for those consumers, how they can navigate these new areas that either culturally or diversity like they weren't allowed to or just don't have a lot of experience in some of these these places.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: And I think one of them, as you said earlier, is river cruises.
2:23
SPEAKER_00: you know, I'll be 45 this year.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: So I'm literally 80s baby, 80.
2:29
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, growing up, I thought of River Cruises as, that's something my grandfather and grandmother used to do, right?
2:34
SPEAKER_00: Like they're playing shuffleboard and, you know, some disgusting Bermuda shorts and a hat on a River Cruise deck.
2:41
SPEAKER_00: And that's how I saw it.
2:43
SPEAKER_00: And I just didn't see it as something that in my youth, I guess, I guess we're middle-aged, I guess 45.
2:48
SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, if you think about it, you know, I don't want to off on a tangent right but it's like i said it the other day and i was around someone that was in their 70s like you're not middle-aged and i'm like okay so let's break this down mathematically If literally you multiply my age by two, that's 90.
3:06
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's middle age.
3:08
SPEAKER_00: It's safe to say 45 is middle age.
3:10
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
3:12
SPEAKER_00: But anyway, I want to get off on a tangent.
3:13
SPEAKER_00: Now I'm of age where some of these experiences now don't seem so old.
3:19
SPEAKER_00: And I think in general, even for individuals that are 20 years younger than me, there's still a lot to be said about small cruises.
3:26
SPEAKER_02: We've always felt like the sooner you get into small ship cruising, the better off you are.
3:31
SPEAKER_02: Agreed.
3:31
SPEAKER_02: in on a secret that everybody else is going to find out later in life and wish that they had found out sooner.
3:37
SPEAKER_00: And the price goes up even more,
3:38
SPEAKER_02: right?
3:41
SPEAKER_00: It's like that small island that used to be so quaint and cute and no one went to, right?
3:46
SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, shout out to Tulum, but Tulum is a good example of that, right?
3:50
SPEAKER_00: Where 20 years ago, oh my God, you can get there for pennies.
3:53
SPEAKER_00: Now everybody and their mother and their dog wants to get there and the price has gone up.
3:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
3:59
SPEAKER_02: What was your introduction to small ship cruises?
4:01
SPEAKER_02: cruising in general?
4:03
SPEAKER_00: So it was Riverside luxury cruises.
4:05
SPEAKER_00: I had never been on a small room.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: Well, I take that back.
4:09
SPEAKER_00: I mean, in New Orleans, you go on like those riverboat cruises, but you're not you're not really going anywhere.
4:13
SPEAKER_00: You're just going around locally.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: You're not in another country and heading eight different destinations.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: So I think this was three years ago and it was Danube.
4:22
SPEAKER_00: So I believe it's the Mozart.
4:24
SPEAKER_00: It was on assignment.
4:25
SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, okay, the exaggerated eye roll.
4:27
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, okay, I'm going to go and I'm going to be the youngest person by 30 years, except for other press on the trip.
4:33
SPEAKER_00: Everybody else will be super old and that's okay.
4:36
SPEAKER_00: Right.
4:36
SPEAKER_00: I don't have an issue with that.
4:38
SPEAKER_00: Cause I like to joke that I feel like generationally I'm the middle child.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm stuck between baby boomers and Gen Z and millennials.
4:47
SPEAKER_00: And so it was my first experience and I went in there with my eyes wide open and just like, okay, we're going to try this out.
4:53
SPEAKER_00: And I was.
4:54
SPEAKER_00: pleasantly surprised.
4:55
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't the youngest person by far on that cruise.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: And even on the cruise, we went on them.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: There were quite a few 20 year olds and 30 year olds.
5:03
SPEAKER_00: I was extremely young, but maybe back in the seventies and eighties, it was just something that was advertised towards an older generation, right?
5:11
SPEAKER_00: Baby boomers were in their forties at that point.
5:12
SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, this is for us.
5:13
SPEAKER_00: And then of course they've aged with the brand.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: And I think along the way, these river cruisers weren't able to pick up younger generations.
5:21
SPEAKER_00: They just doubled down, tripled down on on baby boomers and Gen Xs and went with it.
5:26
SPEAKER_00: And I don't blame them, you know, follow the money, get yours.
5:29
SPEAKER_00: I don't have an issue with that.
5:30
SPEAKER_00: But then how do you, right?
5:31
SPEAKER_00: How do you sustain long-term viability?
5:34
SPEAKER_00: They didn't pick up the millennials, you know, along the way and say like, hey, this is not just your grandparents type of travel.
5:43
SPEAKER_00: This is something that you can either go on with them or just do it, do it yourself.
5:47
SPEAKER_00: And I think they missed out on that.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: And now you're starting to see Riverside, Emma and other ones trying to get and doing a pretty good job of getting younger individuals involved in river cruising
6:01
SPEAKER_01: yeah what what experiences do you think they offer that makes them luxury.
6:07
SPEAKER_01: And then second part of that is would appeal to a younger audience.
6:12
SPEAKER_00: So I compare them to the big ocean liner cruises.
6:15
SPEAKER_00: So they're both cruises, just one's on the ocean and literally one's on a river.
6:19
SPEAKER_00: But I know my issue with cruises in the beginning were that it's like, okay, this is a college soup kitchen, right?
6:25
SPEAKER_00: Like, is this a buffet style?
6:27
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not agoraphobic.
6:29
SPEAKER_00: I want to be very clear to the audience.
6:31
SPEAKER_00: I'm not agoraphobic at all.
6:32
SPEAKER_00: But even on some of these large cruises, I mean, you have 5,000 people, you're shoulder to shoulder, and you're standing in line, and you know, there's screaming children, and there's teen angst in the pool, and it's just a lot, right?
6:49
SPEAKER_00: A lot of moving parts.
6:51
SPEAKER_00: And to me, the river cruises are smaller, more intimate, and you're able to really focus in on things that the larger cruises just can't give you the individualized service.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: So you have the great food, but it's not for 4,000 people.
7:05
SPEAKER_00: It's for 40 people or 100 individuals.
7:09
SPEAKER_00: It's easier to get on and off the ship because you're not standing in line for an hour and a half to get off.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: For those that may lean towards antisocial behavior, it's just much easier, I think, for those that are a bit shyer to deal with 40 people than 4,000 individuals, right?
7:26
SPEAKER_00: You meet one or two people that you get along with, right?
7:29
SPEAKER_00: And you focus in on them for seven to 10 days and you're good.
7:33
SPEAKER_00: The other thing I would say is from a From a socioeconomic standpoint, I know river cruises may seem like they cost a bit more, but it's another way to think about it.
7:44
SPEAKER_00: This is how I think about it.
7:46
SPEAKER_00: Imagine you're booking your vacation and go somewhere that you've never been before, and you're spending anywhere between$2,000 to$10,000.
7:53
SPEAKER_00: You have no idea what to expect when you get to that island or that country.
7:58
SPEAKER_00: And you spend all this money, and hopefully it works out for you, but sometimes it doesn't.
8:02
SPEAKER_00: You absolutely hate it there, and you just dropped 10 grand.
8:05
SPEAKER_00: to me with a river cruise hitting seven or eight spots you're able to figure out what are the places that you like best and then you come back and you drop that seven eight grand right so we were in amsterdam we were in germany we were in france and we end up in switzerland so we stopped at what maybe eight, nine spots, because I know we did two in a day some of the days.
8:29
SPEAKER_00: And I like some places better than others.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, huh, I'm going to drop my money, right, in the next one or two years to come back here and check out, you know, the Chocolate Museum in Cologne, right?
8:39
SPEAKER_00: And we went to a beer garden.
8:40
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, okay, this is some place that I like.
8:43
SPEAKER_00: There was other places, and I won't shout them out because I don't want to hurt their tourism, but that I wasn't, right, that I wasn't too keen on.
8:50
SPEAKER_00: So maybe I need another river cruise to figure that part out, but I'm not going to drop seven grand to go back back there and purchase a hotel.
8:56
SPEAKER_00: So my point is the long winded way of me saying you're able to taste, pun intended, a lot of different places all in one trip and then figure out what suits you.
9:07
SPEAKER_00: I'll be nice today.
9:08
SPEAKER_00: The younger generation, the attention span can be fickle.
9:11
SPEAKER_00: So now every day you're hitting a new spot.
9:14
SPEAKER_00: You're hitting a new spot.
9:15
SPEAKER_00: You're hitting a new spot.
9:17
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's something that really vies with the younger generation.
9:19
SPEAKER_02: To your point, you hit more spots on a river cruise than you do on a big ship because they're there the entire day.
9:28
SPEAKER_02: And you're right, younger generations I don't want to brag about me being a younger generation.
9:35
SPEAKER_02: I'm still in my 40s, you guys, but I am the youngest of the three of us.
9:38
SPEAKER_00: By like two years.
9:40
SPEAKER_00: Get out of here.
9:43
SPEAKER_02: But my attention span is not great.
9:46
SPEAKER_02: And I do enjoy one city in the morning and then a city in the afternoon.
9:50
SPEAKER_02: Some days we're in the city from morning until late in the night, but it was a nice aspect of it.
9:56
SPEAKER_02: And additionally, another point you made about the cost and this, I would say, misconception that it's so expensive.
10:03
SPEAKER_02: You made a great point about it being maybe riskier to be somewhere.
10:08
SPEAKER_02: I mean, we went to Tulum to take Tulum as the example,
10:11
SPEAKER_03: and
10:12
SPEAKER_02: we were not into it.
10:14
SPEAKER_02: So that was riskier, if you ask me, and to your point, than something that, you know, you pay for your flights, you pay for the river cruise.
10:22
SPEAKER_02: Most of them include gratuities, or you can opt to include gratuities.
10:26
SPEAKER_02: And there's not variables.
10:28
SPEAKER_02: You're not spending money on anything else, really, unless you want to have dinner in town unless you want to go out and shop.
10:35
SPEAKER_02: That's up to you.
10:35
SPEAKER_02: And that's a choice.
10:37
SPEAKER_02: Right.
10:37
SPEAKER_02: And that's a choice.
10:38
SPEAKER_02: But there's less variables.
10:39
SPEAKER_02: It's almost like it minimizes the financial risk.
10:44
SPEAKER_00: I agree.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: Vacations can be stressful for a lot of reasons, who you're with, what you're seeing, packing, getting on the plane.
10:50
SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, you, as I was saying to one of the passengers on our cruise, I understand like this other cruises.
10:57
SPEAKER_00: And again, it's no knock on them that you pay quite a sum of money and then you have to pay even more once you get on for this type of dinner or you're paying for these excursions.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: And with Riverside, not to hype them up too much, but I'm just telling the truth.
11:10
SPEAKER_00: It's like you pay this price and it's not super cheap and that's okay.
11:14
SPEAKER_00: It's literally a luxury cruise line, but you don't pay anything else once you get aboard.
11:20
SPEAKER_00: And for those that enjoy their spirits, as I do, show of hands, I enjoy my spirits, right?
11:26
SPEAKER_00: It's all included.
11:28
SPEAKER_00: So if you're going there for an early happy hour at 11.59 a.m.
11:33
SPEAKER_00: because it's happy hour somewhere, and if you're there at midnight, like we were a couple of those nights when Dan didn't go to bed at 7 p.m.
11:40
SPEAKER_00: I'm kidding.
11:41
SPEAKER_00: I'm kidding.
11:42
SPEAKER_00: I'm kidding.
11:42
SPEAKER_00: High-end meals throughout the the day, the barbecue on the deck, having dinner and having a menu that changed every night.
11:49
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't the same thing unless you want to eat the same thing, right?
11:52
SPEAKER_00: So they had the menu where if you wanted the steak every night, you could have it.
11:56
SPEAKER_00: But the main courses, they changed every night.
11:59
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's something that I appreciate it.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: And I know we talked about a little bit, but given the day that you're on the cruise, some days you're not feeling getting off the ship.
12:08
SPEAKER_00: And there were a couple of days I was like, you know what?
12:11
SPEAKER_00: We're in this port.
12:12
SPEAKER_00: It's 80 degrees outside.
12:13
SPEAKER_00: The sun is there.
12:14
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna go up there, right?
12:16
SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna oil up the legs and the face so I don't get sunburned.
12:21
SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna sit on the deck for four or five hours and have one of the nice butlers bring me a drink.
12:26
SPEAKER_00: As I said to him, I was like, every 45 minutes, I need you to fill my cup.
12:30
SPEAKER_00: And he did.
12:31
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's, to me, the proposition value of a river cruise.
12:36
SPEAKER_00: Be able to meet friendly people and hang out with them.
12:38
SPEAKER_00: And if you wanna do your own thing, you can.
12:40
SPEAKER_00: You can get in the pool that they had on board or not.
12:44
SPEAKER_00: You can take a e-bike and go around the city or not.
12:47
SPEAKER_00: You can eat yourself into a coma and then literally go to the gym and then go downstairs and get a massage, right?
12:55
SPEAKER_00: I think there's so much more to do than I think people realize depending on how you like to vacation and how you like to relax.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: You really bring up such a great point.
13:06
SPEAKER_01: It's all about that personalization.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: You can literally choose your own adventure by staying on the vessel or else going into town.
13:14
SPEAKER_01: or else take an excursion or grabbing a bike and doing something on your own.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: It's all up to you to make this vacation your adventure.
13:23
SPEAKER_00: There are some cons.
13:24
SPEAKER_00: I think for a smaller cruise, unfortunately, if you don't get along with a bunch of people, there's nowhere to hide.
13:29
SPEAKER_00: You can hide on a 6,000-person ship pretty easily.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: You cannot hide on a 110-person ship.
13:35
SPEAKER_00: There's nowhere to hide on that.
13:37
SPEAKER_00: Also, if you don't do your research and look at the destinations and some of the excursions, if they don't vibe with what you're doing, then I can see that being, you know, a tough trip.
13:47
SPEAKER_00: On the, as you say, the romantic Rhine.
13:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry, I have to do the eyebrow.
13:52
SPEAKER_00: The romantic Rhine.
13:53
SPEAKER_00: If you're not into German wine, if you're not into chocolate, if you're not into rich foods, it's probably not the best cruise to take, right?
14:02
SPEAKER_00: They have many on many different rivers, but just also doing a little bit of homework on that.
14:06
SPEAKER_00: And then Riverside specifically is luxury.
14:10
SPEAKER_00: It's the difference between flying in economy, economy plus, Plus business and first class and Riverside and the name is luxury.
14:19
SPEAKER_00: It is first class.
14:20
SPEAKER_00: So it tends to be pricier than some other river cruises.
14:24
SPEAKER_00: You just need to figure out what's best for your budget and what you want to spend your money on.
14:29
SPEAKER_02: I have two questions.
14:31
SPEAKER_02: Well, a point and a question.
14:32
SPEAKER_02: The point, our first Riverside cruise, we had a lovely two or three days hanging out with a couple that was on their honeymoon and they wanted to try river cruising.
14:44
SPEAKER_02: They were in their early thirties and it was the perfect opportunity to do land and river.
14:50
SPEAKER_02: I want to say land and sea, but it's the river, land and river with Riverside because they do those shorter option itineraries.
14:57
SPEAKER_02: So that's a great thing.
14:58
SPEAKER_02: And my question is, what do you think about a solo traveler if you're young and you know, The answer could be not good for a solo traveler or going with a friend or a spouse for younger generations, younger people in particular.
15:16
SPEAKER_02: And I'm talking about adults that are going to travel, not a multi-generational trip with your grandparents and that kind of thing.
15:22
SPEAKER_02: What do you think about a solo traveler versus going with other people?
15:26
SPEAKER_02: I
15:27
SPEAKER_00: think if someone travels by themselves quite a bit, it just depends on what you're into and how social or antisocial you tend to be.
15:34
SPEAKER_00: And are there spaces where you can be by yourself?
15:36
SPEAKER_00: yourself and do things on your own or you have to constantly be in a group which can be draining for someone that just doesn't have that personality type.
15:45
SPEAKER_00: I think it's great just to have that itinerary kind of pre-plan of like these are the days that you're going to socialize and see what those excursions or what the ship is doing on board and then those days where you can take the e-bike and you can go around Amsterdam for the day or Cologne for the day and kind of do your own thing.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: To me, the trendy thing to say now is like slow travel, right?
16:08
SPEAKER_00: And I get it.
16:09
SPEAKER_00: I really do.
16:11
SPEAKER_00: To me, this is going to sound corny and I'm not trying to coin this phrase, but it seems to me it's like, I don't know, I need to figure it out, like a medium speed travel, like Riverside to me, right?
16:20
SPEAKER_00: It could be very fast, but then it could be also extremely slow where, you know, you get in port 8 a.m.
16:26
SPEAKER_00: and you're just relaxing on the deck.
16:29
SPEAKER_00: Or as one day I did, like I got up in the morning, I went to the gym at 8.30, I had my massage at 10, then I jumped in in the pool around like 1130.
16:39
SPEAKER_00: And then I spent the next four hours just sitting up on the deck with a book.
16:43
SPEAKER_00: As I mentioned earlier, the butler, as I told him, please every 45 minutes, have that fresh drink and the fresh ice.
16:49
SPEAKER_00: And I didn't move until about five o'clock in the afternoon.
16:52
SPEAKER_00: So that, you know, it doesn't really get much slower than that.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: But then the following day up at eight o'clock to get on a bus, to go like an hour somewhere to, you know, do this all day excursion.
17:04
SPEAKER_00: And it was extremely quick.
17:05
SPEAKER_00: We were moving, moving, moving, moving, moving.
17:07
SPEAKER_00: So to me, it just kind of goes back and forth on what you want to do.
17:11
SPEAKER_00: But I think for the solo traveler, that at least...
17:15
SPEAKER_00: How do I put this nicely?
17:17
SPEAKER_00: At least has enough grace and patience when they want to be by themselves to interact just enough on a very intimate ship where it's not possible to hide unless you're just going to sit in your stateroom all day, which kind of defeats the purpose, but still be able to get out and do those things by yourself and perhaps reconvene that evening at six o'clock and socialize that way.
17:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
17:38
SPEAKER_02: Multi-paced.
17:40
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
17:40
SPEAKER_00: Multi-paced.
17:41
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: Maybe that, there it is.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to start using that as a hashtag, multi-paced.
17:45
SPEAKER_00: We're pointing it out.
17:46
SPEAKER_00: Right?
17:46
SPEAKER_00: Multi-paced.
17:47
SPEAKER_00: It's yours.
17:48
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to literally give you credit.
17:49
SPEAKER_00: I'm buying the URL.
17:53
SPEAKER_00: Multi-paced travel.
17:54
SPEAKER_00: There we go.
17:54
SPEAKER_00: I
17:56
SPEAKER_02: love it.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: So what advice would you have for younger travelers that are thinking about maybe a river cruise or trying it out?
18:05
SPEAKER_01: How would they know if it's right for them?
18:07
SPEAKER_02: Right before.
18:07
SPEAKER_02: for investing the money without going.
18:10
SPEAKER_02: That's hard.
18:10
SPEAKER_02: Listen to our podcast.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: Watch all of our videos.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: Yes, watch all that.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: I mean, do your research wherever that is.
18:19
SPEAKER_00: I mean, is it social media platforms?
18:21
SPEAKER_00: Is it articles?
18:23
SPEAKER_00: Is it digital articles?
18:24
SPEAKER_00: Is it word of mouth?
18:26
SPEAKER_00: Ask these questions in all seriousness.
18:28
SPEAKER_00: Listen to podcasts.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: And then I know it's, depending on the generation, it's not typical, but also calling up the actual cruise line or a travel agent and just having a real conversation with them.
18:40
SPEAKER_00: Like, here's how I like to travel and being honest with yourself.
18:44
SPEAKER_00: If you don't want to be around a lot of people, if you don't want to do X, but you do want to do this, figure out like what's the best platform for you.
18:53
SPEAKER_00: But then also what's the best cruise line, because also budget is going to be a big consideration for you quite as well, like flights going out and all that.
19:00
SPEAKER_00: So are you the type of person that, you know, doesn't want to spend any extra money?
19:04
SPEAKER_00: You want to pay one flat fee and then and leave me alone, or you'd rather pay something a little bit less, but then you decide what add-ons you want during or at the end.
19:13
SPEAKER_00: It just depends on what kind of traveler you are and just having a real conversation with yourself.
19:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
19:19
SPEAKER_02: I think also, I won't speak for you, Noel, but People should not be afraid to reach out to the people that made the articles or their videos or the social media that they are watching.
19:31
SPEAKER_02: I love when people reach out to us and have a follow-up question.
19:36
SPEAKER_02: Good.
19:36
SPEAKER_02: So reach out to those people.
19:38
SPEAKER_02: You don't have to guess.
19:39
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't have to be a crapshoot just, you know, based on your research and educated decision.
19:45
SPEAKER_02: And you could have a conversation with any of us about those needs and we have been on them.
19:49
SPEAKER_02: So we are another resource.
19:52
SPEAKER_02: And I'm not saying that just to plug things.
19:53
SPEAKER_02: We started this podcast and our website because we absolutely love small shifts and it is our joy to be able to spread the word and see if it is a right fit for people.
20:04
SPEAKER_02: And if it's not a right fit for somebody, I'll tell them.
20:06
SPEAKER_02: I
20:06
SPEAKER_00: mean, I absolutely, I love it.
20:08
SPEAKER_00: I wish people reached out more and they reach out quite a bit.
20:10
SPEAKER_00: I'll probably get three to five DMs or emails a week.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: But I mean, part of the reason why I got into this is to make individuals that look like me from my community comfortable in these spaces.
20:21
SPEAKER_00: When I got back, I think actually it was during, but I and respond because I think the three of us, you know, we probably had one too many drinks.
20:28
SPEAKER_00: I was like, you know what?
20:29
SPEAKER_00: I'm just I'm going to wait till I get back to America.
20:32
SPEAKER_00: But asking, hey, Noel, I was looking at your photos and were you the only person of color on the ship?
20:37
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, no, I don't think so.
20:38
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, it was pretty diverse racially, but also by age and gender.
20:43
SPEAKER_00: And they're like, hey, I need you to give me the real.
20:45
SPEAKER_00: What was it like?
20:47
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, look, as someone that spent quite a bit of time in Europe in my lifetime, I was like, yeah, there were no cultural issues there and on board.
20:54
SPEAKER_00: They were asking me prices and stuff like that.
20:56
SPEAKER_00: And we broke it down.
20:57
SPEAKER_00: I actually got on a voice call with them and I was like, ask me your questions.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: I really did get into to these things because, not to make this a racial thing, but for me, amongst African Americans in the United States, we have more access to things than we ever had in the history of this country.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: There are more well-off African Americans and Black individuals in this country than there was when I was born in 1980.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: And now that we have the resources, we're still lacking the knowledge of how to interact and move in these areas.
21:29
SPEAKER_00: We're just not used to it.
21:29
SPEAKER_00: It's not a generational thing.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: Your parents may not have done that.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: If they have, great, but it doesn't usually go back six, seven, eight generations.
21:36
SPEAKER_00: You're new to these type of experiences.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: So I'll get a lot of questions of like, well, how do I book this?
21:42
SPEAKER_00: Or how do I interact?
21:43
SPEAKER_00: Or what should I wear?
21:44
SPEAKER_00: Or how should I think about this?
21:46
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, here's my experience, right?
21:48
SPEAKER_00: And yours might be a little bit different, but here's the things I think of, because I'm not gonna speak for you, Dan, but a little bit, you know, I can relate to as a woman where you're in certain spaces and you're just like, look, am I gonna be safe?
22:01
SPEAKER_00: Or what's this gonna be like?
22:02
SPEAKER_00: Things that you just think of naturally because you've been a woman all your life, right?
22:06
SPEAKER_00: In the same way I've been black all my life, How do I think about this where it's like, okay, am I going somewhere where I'm not gonna be accepted, right?
22:13
SPEAKER_00: And those are things that a lot of African Americans think of when they're traveling, obviously within the US, but also overseas, how are they gonna be received?
22:23
SPEAKER_00: And those are a lot of questions that are posed to me really on a weekly basis on where am I going?
22:29
SPEAKER_00: Not to get on a pedestal, but one of my tenants is literally making travel more accessible for people in my community or diverse communities in general, by going on these trips.
22:38
SPEAKER_00: and showing it's okay to do these things.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: Or when something is a little bit funky, I'm going to give it to you like, yeah, you might want to be careful there, right?
22:45
SPEAKER_00: Because people had some interesting, I'm going to be nice because it's your podcast, some interesting comments towards me.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: But on this cruise, it was none of that.
22:54
SPEAKER_02: If I might give a shout out, this is part of why we love supporting the Black Travel Alliance.
22:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love them.
23:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm a member.
23:00
SPEAKER_00: So it's a lot of dollars there.
23:02
SPEAKER_00: So I'm glad to see that there is, that brands are missing out.
23:06
SPEAKER_00: Brands are missing out on that.
23:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
23:07
SPEAKER_02: And that's a perfect segue to ask how can brands reach these not only culturally diverse people, but multi-generation, not just grandparents taking their grandkids.
23:19
SPEAKER_02: How can they appeal to the younger audience for them to help these young travelers open their eyes to this amazing small ship cruising world?
23:29
SPEAKER_00: All right.
23:29
SPEAKER_00: You have two hours on this podcast now.
23:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we
23:32
SPEAKER_00: do.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: You're like, oh, we got like 10 minutes.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: Let
23:36
SPEAKER_02: me pop pop.
23:37
SPEAKER_02: Let's
23:38
SPEAKER_00: see.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: There's so many ways to attack this.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: I'm a storyteller, so I want to tell a quick story so people can understand a little bit better than getting too technical with PR and all that stuff.
23:49
SPEAKER_00: So the three of us are around the same age, roughly, even though someone pointed out that they're in their early 40s.
23:54
SPEAKER_00: Okay, we're going to...
23:56
SPEAKER_00: You caught that, Dan, right?
23:57
SPEAKER_00: I was like, okay, it's fine.
23:58
SPEAKER_00: It's okay.
23:58
SPEAKER_00: It's all right.
23:59
SPEAKER_02: Dan's older than
24:01
SPEAKER_00: you.
24:01
SPEAKER_00: You're in the middle.
24:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I'm like, Dan and I are the same age, but that's all right.
24:05
SPEAKER_00: It's okay.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure in our grand parents' generation when radio was the main platform.
24:11
SPEAKER_00: That's how brands and people communicated with each other through radio.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: That's how you sold ads.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: That's how you sold cars.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: That's how you sold washing machines, right?
24:21
SPEAKER_00: And then in the late, early 60s, as my grandfather used to call it, the idiot box came out known as television.
24:29
SPEAKER_00: And I'm confident that for those that were making hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars through radio were very hesitant to switch over, right?
24:41
SPEAKER_00: This was their bread and butter.
24:42
SPEAKER_00: This is what they knew, right?
24:44
SPEAKER_00: And they protected their turf.
24:47
SPEAKER_00: But as we know from history, it didn't take long for TV to overtake radio.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: So TV came on and within 10 years, if not sooner, it was the primary form of the way people communicated and were able to sell their brands and ads, and then we know the explosion from there.
25:06
SPEAKER_00: Network television, so on and so forth.
25:08
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean that radio just went kaput, right?
25:11
SPEAKER_00: It just went the way of the dinosaurs.
25:12
SPEAKER_00: It just slowly tailed off.
25:14
SPEAKER_00: And I would argue it took, what, 60 years for it to almost completely die?
25:19
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I feel like now in 2025, no one really listens to free radio.
25:23
SPEAKER_00: You have satellite, things have morphed into podcasts, like clearly, but as far is turning the FM dial.
25:31
SPEAKER_00: Now with most cars, you can just hook in your phone or Bluetooth and you listen to your own music.
25:36
SPEAKER_00: Why listen to FM radio or you have audio books?
25:39
SPEAKER_00: So I bring that up as a comparison to where we are now.
25:44
SPEAKER_00: Traditional media in the sense of broadcast television, writing articles for major magazines and major newspapers, I'm not saying that we just get rid of it completely.
25:53
SPEAKER_00: I'm a journalist.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: I enjoy writing articles for brands.
25:56
SPEAKER_00: There's still a healthy amount of the population, baby boomers, older Gen Xers, that that is still their primary form of consuming information.
26:06
SPEAKER_00: However, it is just simple math.
26:09
SPEAKER_00: Who is going to live longer, a 75-year-old that's a baby boomer or a 25-year-old?
26:16
SPEAKER_00: Is 25 like Gen Z?
26:17
SPEAKER_00: Is that Gen Z?
26:18
SPEAKER_00: It's not millennials.
26:18
SPEAKER_00: Is that Gen Z?
26:20
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I don't even know.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
26:21
SPEAKER_00: We'll just say Gen Z and then alpha and beta after that.
26:26
SPEAKER_00: They do not consume information the same way.
26:29
SPEAKER_00: You mentioned that Riverside Luxury Cruise is on the cover of Food and Wine or Travel and Leisure or New York Times.
26:37
SPEAKER_00: And they're going to be like, yeah, okay.
26:39
SPEAKER_00: They don't read those publications.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: Where do they go?
26:42
SPEAKER_00: And it's been shown through data.
26:43
SPEAKER_00: Whether they have$20,000 or$20 million, they're still picking up their phone.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: TikTok.
26:53
SPEAKER_00: Instagram, right?
26:54
SPEAKER_00: That's where they get the information.
26:56
SPEAKER_00: And brands are slow, in my opinion, especially in the hospitality world, to change that.
27:02
SPEAKER_00: You can make the argument that the gatekeepers are from the baby boomer generation and they don't quite understand it.
27:09
SPEAKER_00: You can make the argument that those in the PR and traditional media world are protecting their turf because that's where they make their bones from and there's nothing wrong with that.
27:19
SPEAKER_00: But to me, it comes down to the bottom line of money, right?
27:23
SPEAKER_00: and resources, and if the younger generation is screaming at you saying, we don't read those things, we don't look at them, this is how we get their information, start meeting them where they are.
27:33
SPEAKER_00: As painful as it may be, I understand, I raised an eyebrow to TikTok, I'm 45, TikTok was not made for my generation, it just wasn't.
27:42
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure TikTok is happy when there's 45-year-olds on there, but we know it's made for teenagers, right?
27:48
SPEAKER_00: It's not made for individuals, RAs specifically.
27:52
SPEAKER_00: However, if you're trying to advertise your podcast show, if I'm trying to advertise what I do, it's a mistake not being on those platforms and trying to find a way to advertise what we do to them.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: So I know it was a bit long what I'm saying, but I wanted to give a full example of this is where brands need to go.
28:10
SPEAKER_00: So to bring it home for River Cruises that literally have a reputation of being older, right?
28:15
SPEAKER_00: Where you look at Viking Cruises, every commercial it's someone that looks 20 years older than the three of us, easily 20 years older.
28:24
SPEAKER_00: I don't think I've ever seen anyone that presents as 20, 30, probably even 40 years old on Viking cruises.
28:31
SPEAKER_00: They have made a ton of money, and I love their hustle on that, but how sustainable is that when those 60, 70, 80, 90-year-olds are either not able to travel or they're deceased?
28:46
SPEAKER_00: What happens to the 20 to 40 year old that's like, I'm not going on biking cruises.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: Now this cruise is like the one we went on that's like, we're gonna really double down on that affluent luxury, high income traveler that's between 20 and 60, not just between 50 and 80 years old.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: So to me, that is the education process for a lot of brands and especially for river cruises.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: They are perceived in my strong opinion as an older person way of traveling, not someone younger.
29:19
SPEAKER_02: So it sounds like they're perceived like that because of the marketing that they've done historically over time.
29:26
SPEAKER_02: So to flip it around, to play a little bit of devil's advocate
29:30
SPEAKER_03: for
29:31
SPEAKER_02: our listeners, especially if I am on social media and I see somebody on biking who is young, is that a good indicator that it might be a good cruise line for me?
29:41
SPEAKER_00: I think it's at the very least something to get your attention, maybe what is an ad or marketing, but to get your attention.
29:47
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you can necessarily fully sell someone a just based on you're seeing it, right?
29:52
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, maybe I'm a cynic, but just because I see LeBron James drinking Pepsi doesn't mean necessarily like I'm going to go out and buy 20 cases.
30:01
SPEAKER_00: But at the very least, I can say it got my attention.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: And then I'm going to do my own research and decide if Pepsi is for me.
30:08
SPEAKER_00: Or recently, I think Amazon Prime Day, I saw this commercial.
30:11
SPEAKER_00: I already have Amazon Prime, so you already got me.
30:13
SPEAKER_00: But imagine I did it.
30:14
SPEAKER_00: I saw LeBron doing it.
30:15
SPEAKER_00: It's going to at least get my attention.
30:17
SPEAKER_00: So to your question, do I think just putting someone that looks the younger than us on a social media post is going to get someone to spend$20,000 on a river cruise right off the bat?
30:27
SPEAKER_00: Probably not.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: But consistently, if you're doing that, if you're putting out material that they're enjoying, it's enough to get someone's attention where at least you get a phone call or an email.
30:36
SPEAKER_00: Perhaps that leads to, you know what, I'm going to give this a try.
30:40
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the part that Viking and many other brands inside river cruising miss out on.
30:47
SPEAKER_00: Their philosophy or narrative is still promoting tours magazines in traditional forms of media, and that does not work on social media.
30:55
SPEAKER_02: I think that kind of wraps everything up in a nice bow in terms of do your research, look at not just the person who is doing the social media that might be younger, but see if you can glance at who is in the video when you're looking at the lounge, right?
31:10
SPEAKER_02: And if they are older people, then like you said, just know thyself.
31:16
SPEAKER_02: Are you going to be comfortable if you are the youngest one there?
31:18
SPEAKER_02: Let's assume you're going to be the youngest one.
31:20
SPEAKER_02: the youngest one there.
31:21
SPEAKER_02: If you are younger listening to this and you want to go on, where are your boundaries in terms of, like you said, Noel?
31:27
SPEAKER_00: And own it.
31:27
SPEAKER_00: And that's the thing.
31:28
SPEAKER_00: You have to mean it.
31:29
SPEAKER_00: One of my biggest pet peeves, and it's a little tongue in cheek, but you guys will get it, is when I see brands and they find the one or two black people on the entire campus or at the company and they're promoting them.
31:41
SPEAKER_00: And then you get there and it's like, oh, you're a company of 10,000 people.
31:45
SPEAKER_00: You found the two to five black individuals and you put them out in front of me and Do I really look that uninformed?
31:52
SPEAKER_00: Like I know better.
31:53
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
31:54
SPEAKER_00: It's like, you know, it's no knock on the state, but it's like maybe Idaho or Montana or something like that.
31:59
SPEAKER_00: And you're in your commercial, you're putting all these diverse individuals.
32:03
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, is there really that much diversity in the state?
32:07
SPEAKER_00: My thing is don't mislead and don't lie.
32:09
SPEAKER_00: You can be honest.
32:10
SPEAKER_00: Imagine, you know, maybe this is a free commercial for Viking.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: We know we have trended for baby boomers and Gen Xers for the last 20 years, but Viking is trying to get young by offering these type of cruises.
32:22
SPEAKER_00: We still have work to do, but we're willing to make the commitment.
32:25
SPEAKER_00: Something like that versus, to your point, putting a 20-year-old on the front of the cruise line jumping off and you're just like, oh, this is a stunt.
32:33
SPEAKER_00: The three of us know better because we know the business.
32:36
SPEAKER_00: Oh, this is a stunt.
32:37
SPEAKER_00: There's no one 20 years old on a Viking cruise unless their grandparents brought them, right?
32:41
SPEAKER_00: And then you get on there and it's nothing like the commercial.
32:45
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's another mistake to me that brands make where it's just you trying to make yourself appear like something that you're not, just be honest about it.
32:54
SPEAKER_00: We have a lot of work to do, but we're trying to get there.
32:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:57
SPEAKER_02: I hope over time we can find a happy medium, like which came first, the younger generations or the marketing to the younger generations.
33:04
SPEAKER_02: And maybe like over time that gap is closed and maybe the three of us will be the poster children for River Cruises.
33:14
SPEAKER_00: That's, that's funny.
33:14
SPEAKER_00: 20 years that we'll be on Viking or another.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: I hear you saying, but I, you know, I just want to say Really try and experience a river cruise.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: Unless you are definitely afraid of the water, it is worth the experience.
33:28
SPEAKER_00: There's so much more to do on and off the vessel than you think there is.
33:32
SPEAKER_00: It is worth it.
33:34
SPEAKER_00: Try a little bit of everything.
33:36
SPEAKER_00: Go to multiple countries and have the intimacy of a small crew that's attentive.
33:42
SPEAKER_00: I think it's definitely worth it.
33:43
SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so much, Noel.
33:45
SPEAKER_01: Of course.
33:45
SPEAKER_01: I appreciate you stopping by.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: Tell our listeners where they can find you and more of you.
33:50
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
33:51
SPEAKER_00: So you can type in my name, N-O-E-L-B-U-R-G-E, and that's subtle, subtle G, B-U-R-G-E-S-S.
34:00
SPEAKER_00: You can find me on Forbes, Forbes.com.
34:02
SPEAKER_00: You can find me on Instagram.
34:04
SPEAKER_00: It's Mr.
34:04
SPEAKER_00: Noel Burgess.
34:06
SPEAKER_00: Also, I have a small but growing travel show called On Our Way on YouTube.
34:11
SPEAKER_00: So just type in Noel Burgess On Our Way, and you'll be able to find me there.
34:15
SPEAKER_02: We are supporters to the max and subscribers.
34:19
SPEAKER_02: All of that is going to be in the show notes so maybe you're driving and you can't write that down but don't worry just check out the description or the show notes whatever you want to call it and it will be there we love traveling with you we're so lucky we met that way
34:33
SPEAKER_00: gotta do it again we gotta do it again we gotta coordinate because you guys are great to be able to interact with it was just too fun of a time
34:41
SPEAKER_02: same well thanks so much and until next episode we wish you safe travels and talk to you then
34:47
SPEAKER_00: thank you guys thank you
34:49
UNKNOWN: Thank you.