Latest / The Follio Property Podcast / How to scale your Portfolio from 0 to 10+ Properties in 2026 | Property Experts Explain

Transcript

How to scale your Portfolio from 0 to 10+ Properties in 2026 | Property Experts Explain · The Follio Property Podcast

• 0:00
  Trading at Schwab is now powered by Ameritrade, giving you even more specialized support than ever before. Like access to the trade desk, our team of passionate traders ready to tackle anything from the most complex trading questions to a simple strategy gut check. Need assistance? No problem. Get 24-7 professional answers and live help and access support by phone, email and in-platform chat. That's how Schwab is here for you to help you trade brilliantly. Learn more at schwab.com slash trading.
• 0:30
  Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited premium wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills. But it turns out...
• 0:44
  That's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for 12-month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. See terms. Cracking into property market has never been harder. Now new data shows a surge in so-called rent besting.
• 1:06
  I don't believe anyone in their 20s or early 30s should own their home. If they're not rent-vesting, they've made their first mistake. So that's the biggest mistake, and it kind of stuns their capacity to keep going. Government's trying to portray it by going out there and trying to tax the rich. The average mum and dad, now they're going to get taxed for it. The government's pretty much giving out checks. 95% LVR. So go get all this debt, and this is the reality. Did you know that less than 10% of investors ever own more than two properties? 90% of the population don't get more than one. It's because they haven't set up the right fundamentals.
• 1:35
  You've dealt with thousands of investors. What is the hardest stage to get out of? First one's always the hardest. And if you're structured it correct, going from three properties to six is rinse and repeat. Some of the larger portfolios have been produced by modest incomes and it takes discipline, hard work and time. But no, you don't need massive income.
• 1:55
  You're listening to the Folio Property Podcast. I'm Rhys Bettle and I'm here each week with my co-host, Lachlan Delahunty. Lachlan, today we're going to talk through starting out as a property investor all the way to a portfolio landlord with 10 plus properties. You're going to go through the 10 biggest mistakes that you see across each of these categories.
• 2:15
  Yeah, we'll cover that recent and sort of the three clear phases and we speak about it all the time, right? 90% of the population don't get more than one investment property in their portfolio. How to get from zero to one, how to get from one to five, how to get from five to 10 properties and how to get 10 plus. That's what we'll cover today. Okay.
• 2:32
  Hey guys, quick thing to share. If you're serious about investing in Australian property right now, you need to see what we put together. It's called the National Investment Report and it's our brand new monthly deep dive into exactly where the market is moving, what the data is saying, and what the smart investors are looking at right now. Just scan the QR code on the screen right now or click in the link below to fill out the form. Did you know that less than 10% investors ever own more than two properties?
• 2:58
  Yeah, it's a compelling stat, right? Everyone in the market at the moment is talking about the need to bring in tax reform because investors are making too much money, but only one out of 10 people actually own more than one investment property. A lot of mum and dad investors as well, and I think that's in the media at the moment where there's a lot of scrutiny on property investors, but once you look at that data, that is mum and dad investors all day.
• 3:19
  I'd say that a lot of those, well, the stats don't lie, most of those fall into your favourite category, Rhys, accidental investors. Landlords. So accidental landlords, which are accidental investors, right? They're just upgrading on that property. So by going out there and trying to tax the rich, this is how the government's trying to portray it. It's not. Most of these investors are your average mum and dad that have tried to be that deliberately or accidentally expand their wealth through property, and now they're going to get taxed for it.
• 3:47
  Today, I want to break down how you go from one investment property to potentially 30, 40, 50. There's some extreme examples, but really break it down to the beginner, which is zero to one property. What does that look like? Intermediate, which is two to five properties. How does that look? And then more the advanced when you're looking at sort of five plus.
• 4:07
  Yeah, and there's a strategy around this and I've seen thousands of portfolios, so it's really clear to see the pitfalls or where people make big mistakes that really put the handbrake on going to that next phase, whether it is from one investment property to three or three to five or five to 30. There's lots of different strategies, mechanisms, levers and mistakes that people make and that's what we're going to cover today.
• 4:31
  I mentioned three phases there, zero to one properties, two to five, and five plus. You've dealt with thousands of investors. What is the hardest stage to get out of?
• 4:42
  So 90% of the population own more than one, but a majority of the Australians don't own investment property. And it's not because they don't want to or they don't choose to, it's because they haven't set up the right fundamentals or the right game plan, the right strategy to do so. The hardest investment property to get into the portfolio often's the first. And this is a mistake I see too often, and we get a lot of people that come to us doing portfolio reviews, but they've already made a mistake before they've been able to go into the world of property investing.
• 5:09
  What's the biggest hurdle for an Australian to get into the investment market? What we see too often, Reece, is that the first purchase that a majority of Australians make is their home. And I'm very much pro-advocate, as you know, for people being able to own their own home and ideally own their own home debt-free. Far too many people over-capitalise early in their property journey on their primary place of residence.
• 5:33
  And as a default rule, I don't believe anyone in their 20s or early 30s should own their home. If they're not rent-vesting, they've made their first mistake. Everyone in their 20s or early 30s should without a doubt be rent-vesting to be able to set themselves up in terms of being able to build out their portfolio.
• 5:50
  So that's the biggest mistake you see amongst first-time buyers is they over-leverage themselves on their principal place and it kind of stuns their capacity to keep going? Absolutely. We're seeing it at the moment. What are a lot of first-time buyers doing at the moment? The government's pretty much giving out checks, 95% LVR. So go get all this debt and your debt to income is at four, five, six times for your primary place of residence. And once your income's capped at six,
• 6:15
  Your ability to get more funding to get an investment property, it's not like it could take a year, it may not take two years. We're talking for some people, if their incomes don't rise significantly, which at the moment we know income growth is quite slow in Australia, this could mean they're a decade away from looking at an investment property.
• 6:31
  And this is the reality. So historically, you have to save 20% for a deposit to be able to then go buy a property. So from day one, you've got 20% at a minimum, you'd think, 20% equity in the asset. So then going from one to two is probably a little bit easier in that scenario because you've already got equity in the asset. Now these people go in and buy in at 95% LVR, you've only got 5% equity.
• 6:55
  So you're going to certainly delay that ability to buy the second property. But when we look at your portfolio and that first asset, you don't want to have a debt to income on that first prime place of residence above three and a half. And for most people, that's very difficult to do. So my advice, if your first and probably second property is not a rent investor strategy, your ability to build out your portfolio quickly and aggressively is almost impossible.
• 7:20
  This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales, using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more at Accenture.com slash Spotify.
• 7:50
  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies 18+.
• 8:15
  Going from one to two properties, should they be utilizing equity or should they be looking at cash savings or other elements? Always equity. If they've been able to invest well through rent-vesting in that first instance, they can then start building that momentum. And what we talk about, that is the quickest way to save the deposit for the next house isn't by working additional hours, it's buying the right market at the right time. Often, we can get it done in two or three months if we purchase well, we've got equity day one in the asset, we can recycle that equity, that equity can be used to fund the second purchase.
• 8:45
  and then you've got two assets growing at a 7% to 10% compounding growth rate, we can then pull that equity out and then it funds three. First one's always the hardest. The second and third become easier. And if you structure it correct, going from three properties to six is rinse and repeat. It can actually happen quite quickly if it's been set up correctly.
• 9:02
  Those that are loyal listeners that listen to the podcast, you've spoken about on previous strategy episodes around stepping stone assets. Do you, you know, if someone's going from one to two, what type of asset should they be targeting? Should they be targeting what they can afford or should they be targeting A-grade asset in a blue chip area?
• 9:20
  Ideally both, but where budget doesn't allow, we have to get the best opportunity we can for the budget that allows. So often that may be, like I said, in the priority order, it's location, then land content, then asset. So we want to get the best location we can for the budget that they can work with. That's where you start. What's some of the mistakes that people make going from one to two properties?
• 9:42
  They buy really high cash burn assets. So what I mean by that, people look at property and it's like it's either capital growth or yield. You've always got to have consideration to both. So where we like to buy assets is sort of in that middle piece where you fundamentally always need capital growth because that's going to give you the equity uplift to be able to reinvest.
• 10:00
  but we want to keep cash flow at a level that's not going to completely cripple your serviceability. And or manufacture yield. So buy something on a 3% yield, but by increasing the amenity in the property through renovation, reconfiguration,
• 10:17
  other strategies, increase that yield to 4.5%, 5%. Therefore, the banks look at that very favorably. If it's in trust, those sorts of things, you may be able to have a scenario where it washes its face and enables you from a serviceability point of view to get more debt to buy that next property.
• 10:33
  Typically, you do see a first-time investor invest in their local area, whether that is because they're an accidental landlord or they're just familiar with either the local area or even the city as per se. Should investors start opening their horizons in the one to two property stage to invest outside their backyard?
• 10:52
  If they're not doing that now, Reese, in 2026, when there's an abundance of information, probably too much information, right? You know, you're not a property investor. So if you will not invest outside your backyard, you cannot call yourself a property investor. All you are is a property accumulator, and the big difference, you know, one's a planned strategy, one's quite accidental. So if you're gonna go and buy properties for the next decade in the same market, good luck to you, but do not call yourself a property investor.
• 11:19
  Before we move on to the next stage, any other hurdles that you see a client from zero to two?
• 11:25
  Leaning on from what you just discussed about continuing to bet in your own backyard, one thing I commonly see is if there's no way to manufacture equity, I've seen people get stalled in slower markets. Look at Perth, 2018, 19, Melbourne potentially at the moment or 12 months ago. If you're relying on a market that doesn't have the tailwinds for just natural uplift, we need to have triggers that we can pull to artificially increase the value to use that equity. What I mean by that, again, value add through renovation reconfiguration.
• 11:54
  So being able to control your own destiny in that landscape is really important. It's how I was able to get a kickstart in my journey was in flat markets, still adding value and getting that equity to be able to recycle into the next property. So that's super important. I think a lot of people-
• 12:10
  can be a little bit too passive. And that's fine. That's a strategy that works for certain investors. But to get into that next phase where we're trying to get to five properties, we need to be a little bit more aggressive and a little bit more proactive in how we can manifest some value in the asset.
• 12:26
  Let's talk through a very pivotal stage where you're going from two investment properties to five. What sort of assets should they be looking at in their portfolio? And is it similar to zero to two? Very different. So now we're looking at the overall portfolio. Diversification becomes really key. Again, if you've got all your assets in the one market and the one cycle,
• 12:48
  where I've seen people fail and limits them going from two to five and then five to ten is because they bought all these assets in the one market, it's worked for a period of time for that cycle, five to seven years, and then the market's stagnated or gone backwards, and then they're stuck in a falling market where they're losing equity and they've over leveraged, and it can take a decade to get them into that next phase. So diversification becomes a key element from going from two properties to five.
• 13:15
  It's interesting. We've done episodes on a two-speed market. Sentiment at the moment from an investor outside certain micro markets and macro markets is probably the lowest it's been in some time. If an investor is overexposed, let's say they're in that two to five portfolio stage.
• 13:32
  They're overexposed in a market that maybe isn't moving as strong as, say, Perth or Brisbane or maybe even Adelaide to a certain extent. How do they know which assets to keep and which assets to sell? What are some of the key fundamentals they should be looking at? Cash flow is a big part of it, which are giving you quite a significant cash burn.
• 13:50
  understanding where those markets are at their cycle is critical. And for average investors, that might be hard to sort of understand. That's why we do what we do, Rhys. That's why we've got this podcast, to try to educate you as best we can as to what to hold, what to keep, what to sell and what to buy. But understanding where a particular macro market is in its cycle, but also understanding where the micro market is in its cycle.
• 14:13
  So, yeah, just understanding the data is critical because if you've got any ugly ducklings or any assets that are going to handicap you moving forward, they're better off out of the portfolio. And this is the correct stage to do a full review of your assets. So, we didn't really touch on it earlier, but we have on previous episodes. You have used stepping stones if that's the capacity that they can – is that the only capacity of asset they can purchase in? But once they go from two to five, if they had any stepping stone assets – so, for those that don't know a stepping stone asset, it is –
• 14:42
  You've said it before. It's basically just like what you can afford, but maybe it's an A-grade location. Yeah. A stepping stone asset is, it might be a metro regional where it's affordable price point. You can't afford to get into the capital cities yet, but we can get there on a strong yield. Still an A-grade locality within that area, but it's not a long-term hold because we know the-
• 15:03
  The volatility of those areas are a little bit higher than that of a capital city. Or it could be a unit villa in an area where your price point didn't allow you to buy a house and establish a house with land content.
• 15:13
  So this is the stage where you would start to look to diversify those assets if budget is- Allows. Correct. Absolutely. And that's one of the keys to hold people back going from the next phase from two to five is not selling poor performance. There's an old bias towards you buy a property, buy real estate and you never sell it. That's super lazy. And I find the people that get stuck with a handful of properties, they're stuck because they've got assets that the banks don't like.
• 15:41
  They're not yielding well and they're in low capital growth areas. So let's get them out of the portfolio. And the sooner we do that and get them into A-grade assets, better performers, B, your serviceability is going to be better, but you can get equity to then recycle to buy the next property and so forth. What's the biggest mistakes that you come across with investors when they're in this two to five property stage?
• 16:01
  As I discussed in the first one, not selling poor performers. Being too headstrong and trying to just keep fighting a market that's got more headwinds and tailwinds. So again, take the emotion out of it and get rid of those poor performers. The second thing is the acceptance or comfort levels with debt. Your relationship with debt changes when you go from one to two to properties. Your relationship with debt becomes extreme. You work out your relationship with debt when you have three, four, five properties there.
• 16:28
  And it's because it's the reason it's uncomfortable because it's, you know, in your social networks, in your friendship groups, you become an outlier. Because a lot of your friends will own a property. Some of your friends will own an investment property. Very few of your network will own more than three. Well, the data doesn't lie. Only 10% own more than one property, investment property, right?
• 16:48
  So, when you become an outlier, you start to second guess yourself, is this the right strategy? I'm taking on a lot of debt here, although a lot of it's good debt, you don't have anyone in your network that you can communicate in with you to give that support. So you feel like you're really exposed and people that are quite conservative in your network, be that friends, family, typically that want the best for you.
• 17:08
  will start to maybe criticize because you're getting a little bit more ahead. They'll start to comment on, are you a bit nervous about the market? There's a war at the moment. Does that get, you know, if you're quite overexposed. So I find that the first one is not selling your dead ducks in your portfolio, but the second one is your relationship with debt gets really challenged. And it's predominantly from the people in their peer groups.
• 17:29
  And that's not something that is easy to educate. It's the way that sort of my advice to overcome that is just having a clear strategy. So knowing your cash buffers are in play, knowing where your debt to income is at at all times, knowing your understanding your gross and net yields across your portfolio intimately.
• 17:50
  So with data and with a strategy, sort of overcomes that fear. But for a lot of people that have sort of fallen into this and started buying properties and markets going up, and then you turn around and you look at your portfolio and you're like, she's got $2.5 million of debt here. That's pretty scary. With no strategy, that is scary. But with a strategy that you're working to and you know that your downside risk is mitigated for your cash buffers, through your asset selection, then that will give you the ability and the mindset to go from five to ten.
• 18:16
  It's very topical at the moment and let's make the assumption nothing does change with it. But in terms of negative gearing, how much should someone be still utilising this as a benefit in this stage? Or should they be starting to look to have more neutrally geared assets?
• 18:30
  Anyone that's just buying property for the benefit of negative gearing, I wouldn't put them in their sophisticated investor pile if that is your only strategy, right? Negative gearing is a benefit of owning property. It's a government benefit for owning property where your rent doesn't cover your repayments.
• 18:48
  And absolutely, we're going to take that benefit. But if that was driving your strategy, to lose money is driving your property strategy, you fail before you've already begun, right? Yeah. So to say that negative gearing is my only investment strategy wouldn't be sound advice. So how do I think this is going to impact investors? It just means there's potentially less benefit by buying negatively geared properties.
• 19:08
  My view isn't they're not going to touch negative gearing anyway, but if they are, well, how does that impact your strategy? Well, it just means you're probably going to be even more incentivized to look for value-add strategy or neutrally geared properties because you're getting less of a benefit when they're negatively geared. But that should form, for those that are in the three to five properties within their portfolio, they've already dealt with a combination of negative geared and probably positively geared properties because that's the only way you can get the cash flow to continue the growth.
• 19:35
  That leeway is very good into the finance aspect of it. So we mention on the podcast about having the right team around you, whether that's property advisor, buyer's agent, more on our side of things, or from a finance perspective, mortgage broker. Not all mortgage brokers are the same as we've discussed.
• 19:52
  accountants how important is having your team and we actually get a lot of comments on this and even when we've done a Q&A episode this one's come up quite a bit around how do you evaluate your team what point do you start to re-evaluate what you what you've currently got and is this the right move for me going you know from two to five to five plus
• 20:13
  How you structure your debt is uber important when you start to build a larger portfolio because it can handicap you significantly. So your finance strategy, if that's poor to begin with, and what does that look like? It's, you know, when I look at it, a lot of investors don't run out of opportunities. They run out of finance solutions, right? They run out of debt. And property is a debt game. We speak about it all the time.
• 20:37
  And what is poor structuring? Like a lot of cross-collateralizing of debt. It could be the wrong sequencing of debt. So going out and using second or third tier lenders too soon when you probably should be starting with a bigger base and then working yourself down to the...
• 20:52
  Pendulum not having the right structure. So we've talked about trust is a way or has been a vehicle for property, company structures, those sorts of things. So it's understanding that and having the right team to set that up. For those that haven't built a portfolio, well, the upside is you can set that up properly because those that have built out four or five, it can be quite difficult to unwind it. Not impossible, but more difficult.
• 21:16
  and I say it far too often. And I'm like, how did you set up here? And they said, oh, my broker said I should do it this way. So that's interesting. So your broker was giving you accounting advice. Okay, that's illegal, and they're probably not qualified to give that, and they've given you the wrong advice. So it's so important to have the right finance team, accounting team, and property advisory team to make sure it's set up correctly from the start.
• 21:38
  You mentioned second tier lenders and for those that aren't familiar with second tier lenders, generally it covers a higher interest rate because there's a higher risk, they're more flexible and in some instances will actually approve a case significantly quicker than what they would with maybe the big four. Is there, especially with the rise in investment lending activity and the restriction of some of these big banks, is there a risk that an investor will over leverage himself with some of these non-bank lenders or second tier lenders? Yeah.
• 22:04
  Absolutely, and that's what's happening, right? That's why we're seeing the trust lending is starting to tighten. That's why we're seeing the major banks look at fraudulent behavior. The banks are tightening up on this stuff because I believe across Australia, some people out there are overexposed when they don't have the income or the job security to support that, and that's not a good thing.
• 22:26
  In this stage from two to five, is this the end journey for a lot of the clients that you see, depending on their asset quality and their end goals? Or do people have the appetite? I'm talking maybe more from a four to five property. How much appetite is there to keep going?
• 22:41
  Our client base race, 30% to 40% are trying to push past that five properties. And for a lot of listeners, it's probably an ambitious goal, but a lot of them have got there already, and some we're working with to get them to that point before it hits a milestone where we might start paying off some debt. But like I said, that doesn't happen overnight. Some of these clients have been working with for five, six years to get them there, and they've got a really balanced, diversified, A-grade portfolio, which gives them options.
• 23:09
  and one of those option is to go from five to 10. For others they wanna pay off all their debt and have some income from their portfolio. So to go from five to 10,
• 23:23
  It's not easy. The phase changes significantly. You move from the five to 10 phase. You go from a property investor to a portfolio builder and it's a completely different game. You need to treat the portfolio like a business. So if you look at the three phases, I look at them clearly. Accumulation phase, and like I said, you're not an investor if you're buying properties in your backyard. But at the moment, there's a little bit more sophistication. There's a little bit more of a strategy around it.
• 23:48
  You graduate from an accumulator to an investor. Once you push past that five and into that sort of 10 assets in the portfolio, you go from a property investor to a portfolio builder. And like I said, we run these things like you'd run a business. You're checking quarterly on your cash buffer, your returns. You're checking the P&L. You're looking across the portfolio to see where we can increase margin. We're seeing what are the poor performers, just like staff members in a business who we may need to let to go at certain points in time.
• 24:16
  And we're looking out there to say who we should be recruiting in terms of what assets we should be getting to the portfolio and how they all go into contribute to the overall goal. And that's the main thing, right? Biggest difference between those three phases is the amount of planning and strategy that goes into place between the three phases. Cumulator, almost no planning. Property investor, there's some pre-thought. You're outside your backyard, you're going into other markets, you're starting to think more like an investor. Portfolio builder, you're checking in on this frequently.
• 24:45
  minimum every quarter, likely every month, and you are understanding data, you understand the blind spots in your portfolio, the opportunity, the risks, you're running this thing as a business.
• 24:56
  When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs.
• 25:25
  What's the biggest mistakes from in this period that you see investors make? You know, four to five plus, five to 10 properties. I think they can get caught up with buying with a bit of emotion because now you've got some diversification, things like lifestyle plays. You've made some money, you've got some equity, so holiday homes. You know, the upgrader becomes a bit more attractive. Development stuff, I'm assuming. Yeah.
• 25:48
  Yeah, but that's a positive. When I look at the distractions, there's a lot of, all of a sudden, you've been obsessed with property, you've done a lot of the legwork, and so many clients then I see in that five to 10 phase, there's a couple of questionable assets, and it's typically emotionally driven.
• 26:03
  So they buy a little bit more with emotion. They've done the fundamentals so well, but then they went and bought a high speculative off the plant apartment. What was that? And they're like, ah, no, no, that's an emotional play. It makes up less than 10%, like you said, of your portfolio. So I'm allowed that. I'm like, you're allowed that one, but did you need to go buy the beach house as well? And if people just get a little bit more emotional, I find that can be a setback during this phase.
• 26:24
  Again, see too often people hanging onto Deadwood. And it cripples people between two and five. But going from five to 10, there's no passengers on the bus. Anything that's not core asset long-term, it's out of the portfolio.
• 26:39
  Unless it's in the rising market where we're going to hold it to the top of the cycle, but otherwise it's out. We need every hand in that because once you get 10 properties in the portfolio, that's 10 headaches. And that's when I listen to these other podcasts recently. They've got 80, 90, 100 properties in their portfolio. I call it bullshit.
• 26:57
  because the amount of headaches I had when I had 20 in my portfolio, there's absolutely no way I would want 50 to 100 assets in my portfolio because the things just go wrong. So 10 plus, you're running it like a business. You don't want any dead wood in the portfolio. Every hand's got to be a winner. Otherwise, get it out because it's a waste of headspace. It's a waste of capital. And you just won't want the uses for that. And that sounds like first world problems, right? Because you've got the luxury of just getting rid of a property because it gives you headaches. Well, you do.
• 27:27
  Because you need to clear your head when the right opportunity comes up that you can move on it. And if you're dealing with all these problems, you're not going to be the headspace to say, I want to add another property to the portfolio. So you're just trying to get more out of what you got. And then 10 plus, it's typically about reshuffling the portfolio. A lot of my clients don't want 20 or 30 properties in their portfolio. It's just too many headaches.
• 27:46
  It's interesting you say that 10 plus, it's a business. And you've got to, like you said there, you've got to get rid of all the dead wood, take the emotion out of it. The mindset going from 10 plus, is that purely someone who is a business owner themselves and wants to elevate sort of an income stream? Or what sort of, what does an investor look like from a 10 plus?
• 28:07
  I've seen individuals on PayYG with pretty moderate incomes with 10 plus. So anyone can do it, but he does treat that as a business. I'm talking about getting blood out of a stone when we do our portfolio review. We are squeezing that lemon hard to make sure that every property is highest and best use. Every property is...
• 28:26
  at its highest rental return, and every decision is carefully thought about. So again, you're treating your portfolio very much like a business, and we're checking in on that with that particular client he wants to meet every month, which is great. I love the enthusiasm, and that's how he should be treating it. I catch up with quarterly to review it, but it's a different beast at that level.
• 28:46
  Okay, Lachlan, we've gone from a first-time investor all the way up to a portfolio builder or even someone who treats it like a business. What's a quick summary if we could go over from someone who's in the zero to two property? No, you just say you need a big income to get a large portfolio. Lachlan, before I get you out of here today, let's do an I call bullshit. Lachlan, you need to earn a big income to build a big property portfolio. Fact or fiction, do you call bullshit?
• 29:13
  We'll have to call bullshit on this, Rhys. I've seen it in our client base. Some of the larger portfolios have been produced by modest incomes, and it's really impressive to see. It takes discipline, hard work, and time. But no, you don't need a massive income. There is other levers to pull. That's why you use property as a vehicle to generate wealth. You've been listening to Folio Property Podcast.