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Transcript

Todd Zinser - Citizen Watchdog · Brian Thomas

0:00
Speaker 1: Bok station seven. Hoh sis here if about Canacy detalk
0:20
Speaker 1: station careful one you're commute in and good luck trying
0:26
Speaker 1: to get that Cincinnati snowplow tracker app to work. So
0:30
Speaker 1: far it's not working. Brand new rolled out yesterday. Maybe
0:33
Speaker 1: Todd's Zenzer will comment about that in studio our citizen Watchdog,
0:37
Speaker 1: and God blessed Todd Enser for who he is and
0:40
Speaker 1: what he does for the city of Cincinnati, whether you like,
0:43
Speaker 1: whether you like the council or not. Todd's ends are
0:45
Speaker 1: at least paying close attention to the Shenanigans going on
0:48
Speaker 1: and got a couple of Shenanigans declarations to declare this morning.
0:52
Speaker 1: Todd's ends Er Citizen Watchdog is the name of his podcast.
0:55
Speaker 1: I strongly encourage you to listen to what Todd Zenser
0:59
Speaker 1: has to say because some of the details he reveals, well,
1:03
Speaker 1: it's enlightening. Maybe you put a soft touch on that word.
1:06
Speaker 1: Todd Zinzer. It's great to have you in the studio,
1:08
Speaker 1: and thanks again for all that you do for the city,
1:10
Speaker 1: whether they like you or not.
1:12
Speaker 2: Thank you, Brian.
1:13
Speaker 1: Well, we'll talk about the upcoming Todd Zenzer nonprofit and
1:17
Speaker 1: where that may go and Lord knows we'll need that. One.
1:20
Speaker 1: Don't expect Todd Zenser's nonprofit to be a NGO included
1:24
Speaker 1: in government funding from the City of Cincinnati, though you're not.
1:27
Speaker 1: You're not expecting that when it happens.
1:29
Speaker 2: No, Yeah, I don't think I'll do that, And if
1:31
Speaker 2: I did, I'm not sure that I would get a
1:33
Speaker 2: grant from the city.
1:34
Speaker 1: Probably not, But at least you wouldn't be a mayor
1:37
Speaker 1: sitting on a board of directors for a nonprofit that
1:40
Speaker 1: does get Cincinnati taxpayer dollars, which is verboten, isn't it, Todd.
1:44
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's I think it's improper, And you know,
1:48
Speaker 2: I've I've been trying to get some attention to that.
1:50
Speaker 2: I've written to the mayor and recommended that he do
1:54
Speaker 2: something about it. And that was back in September. Oh,
1:58
Speaker 2: he didn't get back with you, and I haven't heard
2:00
Speaker 2: back from them. I've got to try to elevate that somehow.
2:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds me like something that's Oh, I don't know,
2:06
Speaker 1: some attorney might want to take on a pro bonum basis.
2:09
Speaker 1: I know there's a lot of attorneys out there to
2:10
Speaker 1: like to sue the city for things like this anyway,
2:13
Speaker 1: we'll get to that toward the tail end here, let
2:14
Speaker 1: us begin with the lead pipe scandal. We had talked
2:18
Speaker 1: about this previously. We're in the process of logically removing
2:23
Speaker 1: lead pipes from the water infrastructure. Correct, Yes, and that's
2:27
Speaker 1: we've been under order to do that. It's part of
2:29
Speaker 1: the environmental cleanup process that's going on, multi billion dollar process,
2:33
Speaker 1: that is. But I certainly understand the need to get
2:36
Speaker 1: rid of lead pipe. It's obviously a problem. It causes
2:38
Speaker 1: brain deficiencies and just in functions, and so it needs
2:42
Speaker 1: to go out. But the problem is how they're going
2:44
Speaker 1: about removing it ran into a little bit of problem,
2:47
Speaker 1: did we Toddzenser.
2:49
Speaker 2: Right, it's a it's an important program, which which makes
2:53
Speaker 2: oversight of the program that much that more critical. And
2:58
Speaker 2: what they what the UH internal auditor for the city
3:01
Speaker 2: found several months ago, is that there was a problem
3:07
Speaker 2: with the scrap lead not being properly recycled and they
3:12
Speaker 2: had set up a regimen in the process where once
3:18
Speaker 2: the lead pipes were removed, they were supposed to be
3:20
Speaker 2: deposited into a container down at waterworks headquarters. And the
3:26
Speaker 2: auditor found out that that container and the recycle outfit
3:31
Speaker 2: that they contracted with would come and service that container,
3:34
Speaker 2: they replace it and take the full container to recycling.
3:39
Speaker 1: So there was a contractor that was retained to take
3:43
Speaker 1: away the lead pipe. That's correct, all right, So city
3:47
Speaker 1: employees working on the were working on the removal. Yeah, right, correct, Okay,
3:52
Speaker 1: I just want to make sure because there's outside entities
3:54
Speaker 1: and then there's people that are subject to the direct
3:57
Speaker 1: oversight of the City of Cincinnaty.
3:59
Speaker 2: They had electrific I had a lead crew.
4:00
Speaker 1: So you have a lead crew. Lead crew takes the pipe,
4:03
Speaker 1: puts it in this specialized dumpster, and then there's a
4:07
Speaker 1: specialized specific company retained to remove it. Yes, that's the
4:11
Speaker 1: way it's supposed to work. Yes, and I guess it didn't.
4:15
Speaker 2: Well. The internal auditor found that the container had not
4:19
Speaker 2: been serviced for five years, which means that no lead
4:23
Speaker 2: pipe had ever been deposited into the container.
4:27
Speaker 1: Uhhh Okay, Now walking through this, and I can see
4:31
Speaker 1: where this is going, and you can certainly can explain it.
4:34
Speaker 1: But if it had not been serviced for five years,
4:38
Speaker 1: this company that was retained and contracted to service it,
4:41
Speaker 1: as we're calling the process of removing the lead from
4:43
Speaker 1: the container. Did they at any time say, hey, we've
4:47
Speaker 1: been driving by this lead container receptacle we're supposed to
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Speaker 1: be removing lead pipe from and it's never had any
4:53
Speaker 1: lead pipe in it. Did any of that word ever
4:56
Speaker 1: get through to anyone responsible?
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Speaker 2: I believe there's some email traff to that effect, really,
5:01
Speaker 2: but it came very late. Oh, it came, I believe,
5:06
Speaker 2: closer to when the audit was being conducted.
5:08
Speaker 1: Oh so maybe when word got out that there was
5:10
Speaker 1: an audit being done and so they said oh oh.
5:12
Speaker 1: But by the way, it seems to be an important question.
5:17
Speaker 1: Was the company that was retained to take care of
5:21
Speaker 1: this receptacle and the lead pipe there and were they
5:23
Speaker 1: being paid all along during this five year period where
5:26
Speaker 1: they apparently didn't have to do any work.
5:28
Speaker 2: Well, they have a they have a bigger contract, I
5:30
Speaker 2: believe in the city and this was just part of.
5:33
Speaker 1: It, Okay, And so that's a yes, I think to
5:35
Speaker 1: my question, Well.
5:36
Speaker 2: They were getting paid for the other services that they
5:39
Speaker 2: were performing under the contract.
5:41
Speaker 1: But this wasn't a separate line item charge on a
5:43
Speaker 1: monthly basis from the company. Was is included in one
5:46
Speaker 1: lump payment to the company. That's that's a yes to
5:49
Speaker 1: my question.
5:50
Speaker 2: That's my understanding.
5:51
Speaker 1: So it should have been something less than the monthly
5:53
Speaker 1: amount because they didn't have to do any work in
5:55
Speaker 1: connection with removing the lead pipe.
5:57
Speaker 2: There they were, they were riggered by a phone They
6:01
Speaker 2: were supposed to be triggered by a phone call. Somebody's
6:03
Speaker 2: supposed to call them and say, hey, our container is full,
6:05
Speaker 2: you need to come and get it.
6:06
Speaker 1: Oh okay, So never having gotten a phone call, that's right,
6:09
Speaker 1: that's go ahead and continue to accept the money that
6:11
Speaker 1: we got lump sum.
6:12
Speaker 2: All right.
6:13
Speaker 1: So then phase two is or question number two. So
6:17
Speaker 1: they're not doing the job because there isn't a job
6:19
Speaker 1: to do. Where in the hell the lead pipe go?
6:21
Speaker 2: Todd Censer, Well, that's my question, Brian. They did a
6:26
Speaker 2: They did a good thing by focusing on the theft
6:29
Speaker 2: of the lead pipe. They aught it. Yeah, they identified
6:33
Speaker 2: one person that they claim was responsible.
6:37
Speaker 1: So facilitating the how did how did the scam work?
6:40
Speaker 1: Because again we're talking about city employees removing the lead
6:44
Speaker 1: pipe team, So it was someone on the lead pipe
6:48
Speaker 1: team that was identified as being involved in this scam,
6:52
Speaker 1: that's right. So what was happening to the lead Well, the.
6:57
Speaker 2: Way I understand it is that the employee, instead of
7:01
Speaker 2: putting it in the container, it would be loaded in
7:03
Speaker 2: a truck, and instead of putting it in the container,
7:07
Speaker 2: they they he had some kind of designated spot where
7:10
Speaker 2: he would drop it off based on some prior arrangement
7:14
Speaker 2: with us, these local scrappers that drive their truck around
7:17
Speaker 2: and and and pick up stuff from the curb that
7:20
Speaker 2: people put out. Right, he had some prior arrangement with
7:24
Speaker 2: scrappers telling them where to go get it and they
7:28
Speaker 2: would pay They would pay him.
7:30
Speaker 1: Now, are scrappers subject to some sort of rules, legal
7:34
Speaker 1: laws or rules of ethics, because the scrappers might not
7:37
Speaker 1: have ethics, I don't know. No, do they have an
7:40
Speaker 1: obligation to, you know, report what they've picked up, because
7:43
Speaker 1: again you and I were talking off air, lead is
7:45
Speaker 1: considered a hazardous substance.
7:47
Speaker 2: Well, that's what That's what I've been focusing on. But
7:50
Speaker 2: I don't think the scrappers have any any other obligation, uh,
7:56
Speaker 2: you know, to the city, or any kind of legal obligation.
8:00
Speaker 2: But that ought to be the subject of a further investigation,
8:04
Speaker 2: which the city is not doing.
8:07
Speaker 1: Well. Let's say I have a load of lead pipe
8:09
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, it was not obtained unlawfully, but I've
8:12
Speaker 1: got to get rid of it. I take it to
8:14
Speaker 1: a local scrapyard. I can sell it to them because
8:16
Speaker 1: they weigh by the pound and it does have some
8:18
Speaker 1: value for the scrapyard. That's why they pay for it.
8:22
Speaker 1: I'm not going to get as much as they get
8:25
Speaker 1: for dealing with whoever they sell it to. So in
8:28
Speaker 1: this particular arrangement, was it ever revealed what this one
8:32
Speaker 1: loan individual who has identified what his slice of the
8:35
Speaker 1: action was, and was he actually getting paid by the
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Speaker 1: scrap guy for the price of the lead or some
8:40
Speaker 1: flat amount or something.
8:43
Speaker 2: I think he tried to tell the city that it
8:46
Speaker 2: was only once in a while and at least bunnies
8:49
Speaker 2: when he was short on his monthly bills or something
8:51
Speaker 2: like that.
8:52
Speaker 1: I only kill people every once in a while. I
8:54
Speaker 1: don't need to hold me account will under the law.
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Speaker 2: But there really is not a big comprehensive investigation of
9:00
Speaker 2: the extent of the issue. My question right now is
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Speaker 2: where is the lead? Because if it is a hazardous
9:10
Speaker 2: waste and there is a test that they have to
9:12
Speaker 2: perform on the pipe to determine whether or not it
9:16
Speaker 2: reaches the threshold of a hazardous waste. There's a federal
9:21
Speaker 2: law and a state law about a requirement to designate
9:27
Speaker 2: or determine whether or not a solid waste is hazardous
9:32
Speaker 2: or not. And there's no indication at this point whether
9:36
Speaker 2: they've made whether they ever made a determination like that.
9:40
Speaker 2: So I have asked for any records that would show
9:44
Speaker 2: the determination, whether they did the determination, and if they did,
9:48
Speaker 2: what it says about those lead pipes. So it's really
9:51
Speaker 2: an open question right now. And the reason I started
9:55
Speaker 2: looking into it the executives from the water work were
9:59
Speaker 2: interviewed on TV by WCPO and they're, you know, they're
10:03
Speaker 2: sorry and et cetera, and they're going to do better,
10:06
Speaker 2: But they didn't really seem concerned about this missing around
10:10
Speaker 2: accounted for lead pipe. And it seems to me that
10:14
Speaker 2: there's a big potential environmental issue there.
10:17
Speaker 1: Well clearly that, But then again, this is simply a
10:20
Speaker 1: question also of like theft. Yes, yeah, okay, let's pause.
10:24
Speaker 1: We'll bring Tod Zenzer back a little bit more on
10:26
Speaker 1: that one. Plus we'll talk about the snapping wick programs
10:28
Speaker 1: and CINCINNTI plus unregulated group homes seven sixteen. Right now,
10:32
Speaker 1: if you five KRCD talk station. You have an imported
10:34
Speaker 1: the talk station seven twenty here if you five KRCD
10:38
Speaker 1: talk station Brian Thomas with Citizen watch Dog. That's the
10:42
Speaker 1: name of the podcast and that's who he is. He
10:44
Speaker 1: is Todd zens Or, former Inspector General for the United
10:46
Speaker 1: States of America. He understands documents, he understands obligations. He
10:50
Speaker 1: understands well the legal realities and the challenges we face
10:53
Speaker 1: as city taxpayers. I'll use we even though I don't
10:56
Speaker 1: live in the city. Uh, following the money and seeing
10:59
Speaker 1: if work was actually done pursuant the contracts, and when
11:03
Speaker 1: we have run when we run into problems, finding out
11:05
Speaker 1: where those problems lead. In this particular case, the lead
11:08
Speaker 1: pipe scandal. So as you set it up, we're removing
11:11
Speaker 1: the lead pipe. Good, that's good. It goes to a
11:14
Speaker 1: receptacle that's supposed to store the lead pipe.
11:17
Speaker 2: Fine.
11:18
Speaker 1: A company is hired to remove that lead pipe. They're
11:21
Speaker 1: supposed to receive a phone call when the receptacles full.
11:23
Speaker 1: They never got a phone call because the receptacle remained
11:25
Speaker 1: empty for five years. Where did the lead pipe go?
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Speaker 1: Big question? One person apparently on the team of lead
11:31
Speaker 1: pipe removal. A city employee has been identified as someone
11:35
Speaker 1: who was involved in the removal of the lead pipe
11:38
Speaker 1: and putting it someplace else for some yet unknown company
11:43
Speaker 1: scrap dealer person to remove it, probably to their financial advantage. Yes,
11:48
Speaker 1: so fine, question, is lead pipe dangerous? Hazardous? I think
11:53
Speaker 1: we can agree it is if they had to remove
11:55
Speaker 1: it in the first place. I presume it passes the
11:57
Speaker 1: lead pipe scrape test that they have to do. Were
12:02
Speaker 1: there were the police alerted, this is the theft, and
12:06
Speaker 1: I'm imagining Todd, you can correct me if I'm wrong.
12:09
Speaker 1: The money that you get, like if you took it
12:12
Speaker 1: to the scrap yard yourself, they'll give you a handful
12:14
Speaker 1: of cash in return for how much the lead weighs.
12:16
Speaker 1: Whatever the chargy get ten cents a pound or whatever.
12:20
Speaker 1: That's taxpayer money that should have gone back into the
12:22
Speaker 1: city coffers. I presume if it had all gone according
12:25
Speaker 1: to contract.
12:26
Speaker 2: That's right under the contract, the recycling outfit or the
12:30
Speaker 2: outfit that took it to the recycler, the city was
12:33
Speaker 2: supposed to get a cut of those proceeds. So for
12:37
Speaker 2: five years, whatever they would have gained is lost, and
12:41
Speaker 2: that number has not been calculated.
12:44
Speaker 1: And how could it be calculated unless the guys that
12:47
Speaker 1: were responsible for removing it in the first place, the
12:50
Speaker 1: city employees weighed first.
12:52
Speaker 2: That's right. But the tell is in their corrective actions
12:57
Speaker 2: to the audit. They list out all the things they
13:00
Speaker 2: plan to do to fix the situation, and those are
13:03
Speaker 2: the things that they should have been doing in the outset.
13:06
Speaker 1: See right now, you're in my wheelhouse of late how
13:11
Speaker 1: I mean, I keep referring apologies to my listeners. They
13:13
Speaker 1: know what I'm going to say. But Dave had always
13:15
Speaker 1: talks about these Internet of Things devices that the software
13:17
Speaker 1: manufacturers never consider security first and foremost. They rush the
13:22
Speaker 1: product out and don't realize it's filled with holes and bugs. Right,
13:25
Speaker 1: they're not thinking about it. Why do our elected officials,
13:29
Speaker 1: Why are they not charged with on some level like
13:32
Speaker 1: a fiduciary obligation to the taxpayers they take the money
13:36
Speaker 1: from to put fraud, waste, and abuse and the prevention
13:39
Speaker 1: of that first and foremost in any program like this.
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Speaker 2: Well, you're you're singing my tune.
13:46
Speaker 1: I know. That's why I love you so much, todd Senser.
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Speaker 1: So what are they now proposing now that they found
13:50
Speaker 1: out we're all being ripped off.
13:52
Speaker 2: Well, they want to keep records of how much, how
13:55
Speaker 2: much lead pipe they remove, and how much they and
13:59
Speaker 2: how much copper they install, which is which is another
14:03
Speaker 2: issue here, huge money. There's nothing in the there's nothing
14:06
Speaker 2: in any of the reports that I saw that the
14:08
Speaker 2: auditor did a report and the waterworks did their own
14:11
Speaker 2: internal investigation. And for me, if somebody stealing lead pipe,
14:18
Speaker 2: scrap lead pipe, chances are they may have their eyes
14:22
Speaker 2: also on the copper inventory.
14:24
Speaker 1: Oh, you're damn right, because it's as so as copper
14:27
Speaker 1: is exactly.
14:28
Speaker 2: And so my point was you got to go over
14:31
Speaker 2: and check your inventory of copper to see whether or
14:35
Speaker 2: not that's been stolen as well. They just don't think
14:38
Speaker 2: like that, Brian.
14:39
Speaker 1: They don't because they don't care a whit where the
14:42
Speaker 1: money comes from, and because they can take all they want,
14:45
Speaker 1: apparently they don't need to follow it like you or
14:47
Speaker 1: I would in our household.
14:49
Speaker 2: Yeah. The the big question for me is is do
14:53
Speaker 2: they not pay attention deliberately because they don't they don't
14:57
Speaker 2: want to point out things going wrong and they're pro
15:00
Speaker 2: sesses or are they just not you know, in tune
15:04
Speaker 2: with oversight? Can I boil it?
15:05
Speaker 1: Down, nefarious or stupid, well something like that. Yeah, that's
15:09
Speaker 1: what it is. I'll put a blunt point on it
15:11
Speaker 1: right there, DoD Genser, and I'm going to go for
15:13
Speaker 1: a combination of all the above. The nefarious ones don't
15:16
Speaker 1: want their program to be criticized. It's their program. They
15:19
Speaker 1: didn't think about fraud, wasted abuse at the outset. And
15:21
Speaker 1: the stupid are the ones that maybe realizes has happened
15:24
Speaker 1: and just don't want to lift a finger to solve
15:25
Speaker 1: the problem because oh, that means extra work.
15:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, so five of the led one one of the
15:31
Speaker 2: lead crew resigned and five of the lead crew were
15:34
Speaker 2: reprimanded for being dishonest. But in that situation, yeah, the
15:38
Speaker 2: first thing I would do is go check the copper inventory.
15:41
Speaker 1: Reprimanded, Yes, for being dishonest. That's a soft way of
15:46
Speaker 1: saying reprimanded for committing a crime. At least that's what
15:50
Speaker 1: it appears to be.
15:50
Speaker 2: They either didn't want to or they couldn't establish the
15:54
Speaker 2: culpability of the other members of the lead crew.
15:56
Speaker 1: You know, in a world filled with camera, I mean
16:00
Speaker 1: you go back to the inventory, like, where is our
16:02
Speaker 1: copper inventory sitting right now? Todd Zenzer, do you think
16:06
Speaker 1: there are cameras that are constantly focused on that stack
16:10
Speaker 1: of copper and other building materials that they're using for
16:12
Speaker 1: the various city works projects.
16:14
Speaker 2: I'd be surprised if that was the case.
16:16
Speaker 1: Brian, Well, there's one more thing they can add to
16:20
Speaker 1: the list.
16:20
Speaker 2: Now, that's a good idea.
16:21
Speaker 1: Todd Zenzer will bring it back. We got more controversies
16:24
Speaker 1: snap and wig programs, group homes, aftab purvol sitting on
16:28
Speaker 1: boards of directors for nonprofits that the city taxpayers are funding,
16:32
Speaker 1: among other things that Todd Zenzer Citizen Watchdog has revealed.
16:35
Speaker 1: Because no one in city council or within the city
16:37
Speaker 1: government wants to bother to lift a finger to find
16:40
Speaker 1: out where your money's being spent. Seven twenty six, Right
16:42
Speaker 1: now fifty five krc DE Talk Station, Kate heavnsk Station
16:47
Speaker 1: seven thirty Here fifty five krc DE Talk station. Real
16:49
Speaker 1: pleasure as always having Todd Zenzer's Citizen Watchdog in studio,
16:55
Speaker 1: and thank you Kevin, my dear friend Kevin. There's actually
16:57
Speaker 1: an app out there, Todd, I scrap. We're talking about
17:01
Speaker 1: this lead pipe situation with kind of pondering how much
17:03
Speaker 1: a pound of lead might be worth it's thirty two
17:07
Speaker 1: cents a pound time, I imagine it ended up being
17:11
Speaker 1: a whole lot of money. They're pulling out a lot
17:14
Speaker 1: of old lead pipe.
17:15
Speaker 2: Yes, thousands of residents have had their lead pipe replaced
17:20
Speaker 2: with copper pipe, thousands, thousands. It's been going on for
17:25
Speaker 2: five or six years, and it's going to go on
17:27
Speaker 2: for another I don't know how many, three, three to
17:30
Speaker 2: five more years. I think.
17:31
Speaker 1: All right, so they don't weigh when they pull it out.
17:34
Speaker 1: It disappeared before it got to the appropriate receptacle bin.
17:37
Speaker 1: Someone obviously absconded with a whole lot of money. Whoever
17:40
Speaker 1: this scrap person was that took that lead pipe away
17:43
Speaker 1: is more than Like, if you can get thirty two
17:45
Speaker 1: cents a pound on the open market, then they're getting
17:47
Speaker 1: more than that from to wherever they sell it, A
17:49
Speaker 1: point I made earlier. How else could a scrapyard stay
17:51
Speaker 1: in business. So they're making fat bank and we under
17:56
Speaker 1: the contract with the people who were supposed to be
17:59
Speaker 1: removing the we the city taxpayers, are suposed to get
18:03
Speaker 1: some of this money back. So when you're talking thirty
18:05
Speaker 1: two cents a pound with thousands and thousands of homes
18:09
Speaker 1: that has got to add up to a lot of money.
18:11
Speaker 1: I agree, it could reach felony level money, Todd, oh easily.
18:16
Speaker 1: So makes me wonder, you know why law enforcement hasn't
18:20
Speaker 1: been brought in and involved in this, because you know,
18:23
Speaker 1: convicted criminals who were engage in this type of criminal
18:27
Speaker 1: activity or quite often obligated to pay restitution to the victims.
18:31
Speaker 2: That's correct, M.
18:34
Speaker 1: But no criminal referral. Although you're mentioned in the emails
18:37
Speaker 1: that they did give you back in requests in your
18:39
Speaker 1: request for documents. Yes, congratulations, Todd Zenser. He's a thorn
18:43
Speaker 1: in city side right now and it's a good thing.
18:46
Speaker 1: So they were aware that you were looking into this,
18:49
Speaker 1: and they actually had an internal email saying, hey, Todd
18:51
Speaker 1: Zenser's looking into this issue. In other words, beware because
18:55
Speaker 1: this guy will be all over us like white on Rice.
18:57
Speaker 2: Well that wasn't in the email, but sometime so something
18:59
Speaker 2: like that.
19:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, any profanities. You can't stay on the radio. No,
19:04
Speaker 1: All right, well, let's tell you what You're not done
19:08
Speaker 1: with this one. And I don't know, I don't know
19:12
Speaker 1: what the steps are to get law enforcement involved, but
19:15
Speaker 1: I think this certainly rises to a level of, you know,
19:17
Speaker 1: a crime worthy of investigation. I suppose it remains a
19:22
Speaker 1: large and looming question given the relationship between the mayor
19:26
Speaker 1: and the city manager and their parent control over the
19:30
Speaker 1: operations of the CINCINNTI Police Department. If the cincinnt Police
19:33
Speaker 1: Department was referred to this, whether or not they would
19:36
Speaker 1: actually follow through and do something that might put a
19:38
Speaker 1: stain on the administration's reputation.
19:41
Speaker 2: Yes, and the issue is going to be for the city, Well,
19:46
Speaker 2: should we spend money getting to the bottom of this
19:50
Speaker 2: when it's only going to make us look even worse.
19:53
Speaker 1: So, oh, yes, it'd be responsible thing to do, regardless
19:55
Speaker 1: of how bad it makes you look. You obviously have
19:58
Speaker 1: learned your lesson. You have new practic This is in
20:00
Speaker 1: protocols you're putting in place to ensure that this thing
20:02
Speaker 1: doesn't happen again. We learn from our mistakes. We're moving forward.
20:06
Speaker 1: We're going to watch out and be responsible. And by
20:08
Speaker 1: the way, we're doing everything in our effort to get
20:10
Speaker 1: that money back on behalf of these city taxpayers.
20:13
Speaker 2: Yes, and they need to address the environmental issue created
20:17
Speaker 2: by these scrap lead pipes in purv All. Mister Green, Well,
20:21
Speaker 2: that's the thing that it's not really climate change. It's
20:24
Speaker 2: more environmental.
20:26
Speaker 1: So, in other words, real pollutants and real environmental problems
20:30
Speaker 1: versus carbon dioxide.
20:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, they should be more concerned about these lead
20:36
Speaker 2: this scrap lead being dumped somewhere and not being recycled
20:42
Speaker 2: and getting into the water supply. Which is ironic here
20:45
Speaker 2: that a water department is going to be so careless
20:49
Speaker 2: with scrap lead.
20:50
Speaker 1: Pipes in the bottom of the mill creek. Yeah, although
20:53
Speaker 1: I think we can all safely presume or assume if
20:59
Speaker 1: you want, that it was actually sold out there, because
21:01
Speaker 1: this does have fat bank on the open market, right,
21:04
Speaker 1: so hopefully it's not in some place doing environmental.
21:07
Speaker 2: And it went to a proper recycler.
21:10
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, how many recyclers are there in the greater
21:12
Speaker 1: Cincinnati area.
21:14
Speaker 2: I haven't counted that, but there probably are not too many,
21:17
Speaker 2: not too many couple, I think.
21:19
Speaker 1: So you could just go to each of the very
21:22
Speaker 1: few scrap dealers and have a direct question answer with
21:25
Speaker 1: them about whether they bought any lead pipe.
21:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, you just go out and do some interviewing. Yeah,
21:30
Speaker 2: be very simple. It would be the logical thing to do.
21:32
Speaker 2: Todd Well, they'll maybe they'll wind up doing that the
21:37
Speaker 2: alternative is for the federal EPA or the Ohio EPA
21:42
Speaker 2: coming in and starting asking questions.
21:44
Speaker 1: You anticipated my next question. Todd. Also, I was wondering,
21:48
Speaker 1: isn't this really kind of assumed or part of a
21:50
Speaker 1: federal project to clean up all the lead.
21:53
Speaker 2: Well, there's a there's a federal law called the Recovery
21:57
Speaker 2: and Conservation the I can't remember the name of It's
22:03
Speaker 2: called rickra Recovery Conservation.
22:10
Speaker 1: Well, listen, they called the inflation Reduction acting inflation reduction.
22:13
Speaker 1: I had nothing to do with inflation reduction, So call
22:16
Speaker 1: it what you will. It's supposed to deal.
22:17
Speaker 2: With pretty it's a pretty serious, very long Yeah. We
22:20
Speaker 2: worked with it when I was a DOT on hazardous
22:23
Speaker 2: transportation issues. We even prosecuted American airlines back in the
22:27
Speaker 2: nineties for their their poor handling of hazardous material on
22:31
Speaker 2: their aircraft.
22:33
Speaker 1: So they're really well connected, lobby heavy kind of money
22:36
Speaker 1: and interest group there.
22:37
Speaker 2: Back then. The penalty was we negotiated was eight million dollars.
22:42
Speaker 2: But and that was just for several containers, and their
22:47
Speaker 2: lacks processes got them a fine at that level.
22:52
Speaker 1: So maybe the simple fact that it's all gone missing
22:56
Speaker 1: and is totally unaccounted for, would be sufficient in information
23:00
Speaker 1: to launch a federal investigation into this Rick potential Rick revilation. Right, well, okay,
23:06
Speaker 1: there's some astute you know, us attorney out there, maybe
23:09
Speaker 1: listening to the program might take it upon him or
23:11
Speaker 1: herself to.
23:11
Speaker 2: Go and do just that. Well, it would be a
23:14
Speaker 2: worthwhile doing. I believe, I'm with sure one hundred percent
23:18
Speaker 2: Todds Ends will continue. Yes, we'll get to the snap
23:20
Speaker 2: and wig program next. Don't Go Away seven thirty six,
23:22
Speaker 2: seven thirty seven fifty five Careseeage shy I seven forty
23:27
Speaker 2: one fifty five car CIT Talk Station enlightening. It always
23:30
Speaker 2: is when you're talking with todds Enzer about city council
23:33
Speaker 2: and city affairs. We have been all morning so far
23:36
Speaker 2: talking about this lead pipe scandal and criminal activity it
23:39
Speaker 2: relates to. And why don't we see somebody being charged
23:41
Speaker 2: with crime for stealing lead pipe? Maybe that'll happen, but
23:44
Speaker 2: let us pivot over to something else. It may very
23:46
Speaker 2: well be criminal of the Cincinnati Snap and Whip wik programs.
23:51
Speaker 2: Supplement of Nutrition's assistance program is a snap card. And
23:55
Speaker 2: then you have Women, Infants and Children program That one's
23:57
Speaker 2: been around since what the forties or something like that.
24:00
Speaker 2: Wick's been around since Nixon.
24:02
Speaker 1: Nixon, Okay, all right, thought it might have been a
24:04
Speaker 1: great society. Well, it doesn't matter. So two different programs, Yes,
24:09
Speaker 1: who is supposed to run these? And how is it
24:12
Speaker 1: run well? Or are they run?
24:15
Speaker 2: Snap and WICK are both funded through the county in
24:20
Speaker 2: their county programs. For example, the county administers SNAP administer's Medicaid.
24:26
Speaker 2: There's a couple of other safety net programs that the
24:29
Speaker 2: county operates. But when WICK was first put in place
24:34
Speaker 2: by the federal government, the requirements were such, this is
24:38
Speaker 2: my understanding anyway, that there was some kind of medical
24:42
Speaker 2: professionals or whatever that were required to be involved in
24:45
Speaker 2: the program for because of nursing mothers and things like.
24:49
Speaker 1: That, to verify eligibility.
24:51
Speaker 2: And that apparently is not the case anymore.
24:55
Speaker 1: I could sign up for WICK now it's probably so
24:56
Speaker 1: easy to get around yet whatever oversight they might have.
25:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, but for some reason, and at the time,
25:04
Speaker 2: the city Health Department was it, so they took responsibility
25:07
Speaker 2: for the program. Well, now forty or however, many fifty
25:11
Speaker 2: years later, the city is still operating it. And the
25:15
Speaker 2: Internal Audit Auditor did an audit of the wik program
25:20
Speaker 2: and identified a lot of mismanagement.
25:23
Speaker 1: So go ahead and cut to the chase on what
25:26
Speaker 1: mismanagement they identified.
25:28
Speaker 2: Well, the programs operated out of ten different offices I
25:33
Speaker 2: guess of the health district, and the auditor looked at
25:38
Speaker 2: six of those offices and found that they were not
25:41
Speaker 2: keeping track of their EBT card inventory. So, for example,
25:46
Speaker 2: somebody working at the health department in the program, they
25:49
Speaker 2: go and go to inventory and grab a stack of
25:52
Speaker 2: fifty EBT cards that they're going to work with that
25:54
Speaker 2: day or that week, or however long it takes to
25:58
Speaker 2: use fifty EBT cards, and then they meet with the
26:03
Speaker 2: constituent and figure out what benefits they're entitled to.
26:07
Speaker 1: Wick recipient is the constituent, Yes, So they sit down
26:11
Speaker 1: with that person.
26:12
Speaker 2: Yes, and they determine what their eligibility is in terms
26:15
Speaker 2: of how much benefit they're entitled to, and then they
26:19
Speaker 2: charge up the card. Just like you go to the
26:21
Speaker 2: grocery store and get a gift card.
26:23
Speaker 1: They get an Apple gift card shirt exactly, and then
26:26
Speaker 1: hand it to them and then hand it to them
26:28
Speaker 1: or or well, we don't.
26:31
Speaker 2: There's no inventory of the cards.
26:33
Speaker 1: No inventory of the cards, which means someone of nefarious
26:37
Speaker 1: intent could grab a stack of cards loaded up with
26:40
Speaker 1: literally anybody's name and information on it, charge it to
26:43
Speaker 1: any given amount that would be within the parameters of
26:45
Speaker 1: the WIK program, and.
26:46
Speaker 2: Put it in their pocket exactly. So that could have
26:49
Speaker 2: been going on exactly for a long time, so they.
26:52
Speaker 1: Have no tracking of the wick card inventory period and
26:55
Speaker 1: the story.
26:56
Speaker 2: That was the result of the finding of the audit.
26:58
Speaker 2: That's correct.
27:00
Speaker 1: Well, I feel real comfortable about that one. Todd.
27:02
Speaker 2: Well, my suggestion was, aside from the mismanagement, why don't
27:09
Speaker 2: you just give that program back to the county who's
27:11
Speaker 2: got experience doing snaps, got experience doing other safety net programs,
27:16
Speaker 2: and the city doesn't really need the headaches, and it.
27:19
Speaker 1: Would relieve the city taxpayers of the burden of that
27:22
Speaker 1: many employees, however, many are working on the WICK card
27:25
Speaker 1: program right.
27:27
Speaker 2: Yes, the money comes from the federal government to the
27:32
Speaker 2: county and then to the city. You would eliminate the
27:36
Speaker 2: city's role in that.
27:37
Speaker 1: But then that would eliminate political patronage jobs to run
27:40
Speaker 1: the WICK program. They would have that many fewer bodies
27:42
Speaker 1: to award jobs to.
27:43
Speaker 2: Todd Yeah, I think they'd probably be able to find Well,
27:46
Speaker 2: I think that being involved in these kinds of things
27:50
Speaker 2: in the past and the federal government, you'd just basically
27:52
Speaker 2: take the employees working on Wick and move them to
27:55
Speaker 2: the county payroll and be done with it.
28:00
Speaker 1: Well, that's an extraordinarily simple, logical and reasonable solution, Todds
28:06
Speaker 1: ens or it could be done. Yeah, any interest that
28:09
Speaker 1: you can find down in the City of Cincinnati and
28:12
Speaker 1: the employees that they might want to go that direction.
28:14
Speaker 2: Well, that was part of my comments yesterday at the
28:17
Speaker 2: Budget and Finance Committee. I talked about both of these
28:21
Speaker 2: audits and that I did suggest that to the city
28:23
Speaker 2: council whether they'll pay attention.
28:25
Speaker 1: No, they were paying with there were cell phones, weren't they.
28:29
Speaker 2: I mean, do you feel do you feel like it's a.
28:30
Speaker 1: Pointless gesture to show up and make these awesome points
28:34
Speaker 1: that could benefit literally everyone and even improve their political
28:37
Speaker 1: standing by getting on top of a problem that's obviously
28:40
Speaker 1: a problem they just got made aware of. But listening
28:43
Speaker 1: to what you have to say as opposed to playing
28:44
Speaker 1: with their cell phone.
28:46
Speaker 2: Well I do. I did sense that they were paying
28:49
Speaker 2: more attention than they usually do.
28:51
Speaker 1: Well, that's because they know you have their number. Hey,
28:54
Speaker 1: you get emails circulated about you behind the scenes down there. Man.
28:57
Speaker 1: You know you're having an impact. We'll bring back Todd
28:59
Speaker 1: Zenzer or one more cover SENSEI though, is a great
29:02
Speaker 1: thing to do is called care c Detalk Station Insights
29:05
Speaker 1: scoop the brek Bart News after the top of the
29:06
Speaker 1: hour news, followed by the Daniel Davis deep dive in
29:09
Speaker 1: the meantime Citizen watch Dog Todd Zenser formac Us' attney,
29:12
Speaker 1: former US Attorney General on these audits, and I've got
29:15
Speaker 1: to go back to the audits really quick, because we
29:16
Speaker 1: started with the audit of the lead pipe issue, an
29:20
Speaker 1: internal audit of the wick snap problem that you just
29:24
Speaker 1: explain and wonderfully so those I was surprised to even
29:29
Speaker 1: know that the audits were done, because you do an audit,
29:31
Speaker 1: you're going to find problems. But there are there is
29:33
Speaker 1: an obligation under the audit standards for the auditors to
29:37
Speaker 1: follow through if they find something wrong along the lines
29:41
Speaker 1: of what you just explained to us. Correct, because where
29:44
Speaker 1: would it go if there wasn't something some follow through?
29:46
Speaker 2: Right, That's right. The general it's called the Generally Accepted
29:50
Speaker 2: Government Auditing Standards, and they say that if the auditor
29:55
Speaker 2: identifies indications of fraud, they've got to run that down.
29:59
Speaker 2: They got to determine and you know the extent of
30:01
Speaker 2: the problem or whether there truly is a fraud problem.
30:04
Speaker 2: And the internal audit manager, I'm not trying to be critical,
30:08
Speaker 2: but they don't take that step for some reason, probably
30:11
Speaker 2: a manpower or they're being told by their management.
30:14
Speaker 1: You know, wait a second, there can't be a manpower issue,
30:16
Speaker 1: because if they're obligated under law to apply these standards
30:19
Speaker 1: and do the follow through, then you have no choice
30:20
Speaker 1: put to hire people to do it.
30:22
Speaker 2: Yeah. The the solution for the auditor is not to
30:26
Speaker 2: cite those standards when they issue their reports, but they
30:29
Speaker 2: do anyway.
30:30
Speaker 1: They do anyway, so they cite them and that gives
30:33
Speaker 1: them protection even though they didn't follow the standards.
30:36
Speaker 2: That's right, Okay, great, No, they tied.
30:39
Speaker 1: By the way, the new mobile app to the snowplow
30:42
Speaker 1: tracker app that the city rolled out, it's not working.
30:46
Speaker 2: That's surprising, all right.
30:50
Speaker 1: So anything give the other component of this wick card
30:58
Speaker 1: problem again, not keeping track of the inventory wick cards
31:01
Speaker 1: and not keeping the appropriate records all sounds to me
31:04
Speaker 1: like it's riddle with fraud and abuse or at least potentially.
31:06
Speaker 1: So you mentioned also that they have an obligation to
31:11
Speaker 1: keep track of equipment purchase to run this program, like
31:15
Speaker 1: the computers and other hardware that's needed to implement it.
31:19
Speaker 2: That's right. The program gets about three point five million
31:23
Speaker 2: dollars a year and that's used for benefits plus the
31:25
Speaker 2: operation of the office, including or purchase of equipment, so
31:31
Speaker 2: that equipment is basically federally funded. As a result, they've
31:35
Speaker 2: got to keep a proper inventory, and the audit found
31:39
Speaker 2: that that was not happening, so you'd have to go
31:43
Speaker 2: back and reconstruct. You know, what equipment has been purchased
31:47
Speaker 2: and is it still here? That's right.
31:50
Speaker 1: So if you're not doing oversight of the equipment and
31:52
Speaker 1: you have the authority under this program to purchase and
31:55
Speaker 1: acquire equipment, some let's say nefarious act might say, oh,
32:01
Speaker 1: my kids need laptops or Christmas, order the equipment under
32:04
Speaker 1: the WICK program and then just take it home with you.
32:08
Speaker 2: Exactly. That's the risk. Uh huh wow.
32:13
Speaker 1: Tod's answer just scraping the tip of the iceberg in
32:15
Speaker 1: terms of all the problems he's identified. And you've got
32:18
Speaker 1: document requests out for this. I suppose at some point,
32:21
Speaker 1: I mean, is there some sort of legal you know,
32:26
Speaker 1: some Kurt Hartman out there in the world file lawsuit
32:29
Speaker 1: over this stuff.
32:30
Speaker 2: Yet you know, it's I'm sure it's possible. It's just
32:36
Speaker 2: a matter of whether or not you can gather the
32:38
Speaker 2: resources to pay for something like that.
32:41
Speaker 1: Well, it usually starts as a Freedom of Information Act request,
32:44
Speaker 1: which they have to honor, and when they don't honor it,
32:47
Speaker 1: that's how you end up in court getting the documents
32:49
Speaker 1: you need, which then will serve as the basis for
32:52
Speaker 1: the lawsuit you ultimately file your file because they didn't
32:55
Speaker 1: follow protocols or otherwise found breaches of the law, et cetera.
32:59
Speaker 1: That's right, all right, Kurt, get on it. Todd'll be
33:02
Speaker 1: happy to help you on to that end. I mentioned
33:04
Speaker 1: a nonprofit. You're working toward establishing the purpose of that.
33:09
Speaker 1: If you get it going, will be well.
33:12
Speaker 2: It's got a couple of different purposes. One is to
33:17
Speaker 2: establish some way to sue the city, because if you
33:22
Speaker 2: look back at the real reforms that have gone on
33:25
Speaker 2: in Cincinnati has been the result of federal lawsuits or
33:29
Speaker 2: other lawsuits. The city does not do these things voluntarily,
33:33
Speaker 2: and so one objective is to establish an organization that
33:38
Speaker 2: would take the lead in litigation against the city for
33:42
Speaker 2: giving purposes exactly. And then the other is to elevate
33:47
Speaker 2: or bring greater visibility to the whole oversight issue. The
33:51
Speaker 2: city has no concept of oversight. It's just not part
33:57
Speaker 2: of their constitution. And that's needed. I mean, they've got
34:02
Speaker 2: a two billion dollar budget and they've got a four
34:05
Speaker 2: person internal auditor that is kept basically on a leash.
34:10
Speaker 2: They need some oversight mechanism like an inspector general that
34:16
Speaker 2: many many cities across the country have in order to
34:21
Speaker 2: deliver a oversight program.
34:23
Speaker 1: Well, and if I had to speculate, since we're out
34:25
Speaker 1: of time, on who is holding that leash, I have
34:29
Speaker 1: to imagine it's the city manager. Yes, all right, there
34:32
Speaker 1: you go. We've had issues with her before, haven't we. Toddzinser,
34:35
Speaker 1: Yes we have. Yes, we have Todd zens Er Citizen
34:37
Speaker 1: Watchdogs the podcast. Follow what he's saying on Citizen Watchdog
34:41
Speaker 1: and tune into the morning show and we have todds
34:42
Speaker 1: inzer on and share the podcast with your friends. Go
34:46
Speaker 1: to fifty five krs dot com. Joelo the podcast up later.
34:49
Speaker 1: Stick around the insight scoop of Bright Barton News Financial,