Latest / High Five Hot Mess Podcast / Are We Really Sorry? | Why Women Can't Stop Apologizing
Transcript
- Lisa Wilson: So I apologized at work this week. It was a real and genuine heartfelt apology. I messed up. I overreacted. And when I say overreacted, I mean I was basically Godzilla stomping around downtown, terrorizing everyone, blowing fire, yelling, stomping on buildings. At one point during my meltdown, did I yell at an executive director who is the adult in the room right now? Is anyone here making any decisions? It was bad, but listen, I was at the end of my bullshit rope and I lost my temper, which was unpleasant for everyone. I waited until the next day and then I called each person involved and explained that I was sorry for taking out my frustration with corporate on them and that I would work to do better. I would work to rein in my temper and be part of the solution instead of making a bad situation worse. It sounded rehearsed, but it wasn't. I meant it, every single word. I gave a real apology this week, which is how I ended up wondering whether half of the other sorries we say are actually apologies at all. Then I started thinking about how weird apologizing is for me. I don't do it much. I often hold on to my anger, my grudges. Because I don't apologize for other people's bad behavior. I'll hold on to a grudge literally forever. If you wronged me in 2007, you're on my list and retribution will be mine. I'll heal in hell, right? But this is the part that I keep coming back to. How many times do we say that we're sorry where we're actually sorry? And how many times are we just trying to manage the emotional temperature of the room? So now I want to know, are we really sorry or do we feel like we're supposed to be? I don't know, man, but I definitely think we need to talk about it. Let's get into it. Hey Lisa Smith. Lisa S: Hi, how are you? I don't know why we we're Lisa Wilson: Okay. Lisa S: always cracking up laughing before we start. I barely get a Lisa Wilson: Because we're hilarious. Lisa S: I barely get a chance to calm down before record the red record goes on. I'm so sorry. Lisa Wilson: Okay, but listen, everyone should Which is a perfect segue. Lisa S: I didn't mean to do that. I didn't mean to do that. I didn't mean to do that. Lisa Wilson: Okay, but listen, today's episode we're gonna we're gonna talk all about it because just like everything else in our lives, Lisa, we apologize differently, like night and day. Like one Lisa S: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: of us like apologizes before they know what they're apologizing for. And the other one's Lisa S: Mm-hmm, mm, mm. Lisa Wilson: like, I'm gonna need a flag on the play and a jury of my peers before I'll apologize. That would be me. Like I don't. Lisa S: Yes, a hundred percent. Lisa Wilson: Like you gotta pry it out of my hands. But listen, one of the things, the question for the day is are we really sorry or do we just feel like we're supposed to be? And Lisa S: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: It could go either way. But one of the things that I think is really interesting is that I like I don't apologize easily. You started the episode with an apology. Lisa S: Like just came out. It's just like part of my vocabulary. That's bad. Lisa Wilson: No, okay, but listen, I don't think it's bad. I just think that it's cognitive, it's just training your brain to kind of think differently. But before we Yes, reword things. And then Lisa S: And reword things. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: I'll and then I'll tell you a story at one point today that will make you feel much better about yourself as a human being because I'm a monster. So Lisa S: Okay. Okay. Lisa Wilson: before we get into why women apologize so much, we need to establish exactly how broken our own apology. Settings are right. Lisa S: Okay. Lisa Wilson: So we've set up some questions for each other and kind Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: of just to give everyone the vibe for the different ways that we both approach apologies. So my question for you is what is something small that most people would apologize for that you're like, I'm not gonna apologize for that. Is there anything? Lisa S: No, I I think I apologize for almost like everything. So no, I don't think there's something like small that I yeah, Lisa Wilson: Okay. Lisa S: no, I would have to say no. So I have so I have a question for you. Lisa Wilson: Okay, good. Okay. Lisa S: think about the last apology that fell out of your mouth before your brain even caught up with you. Lisa Wilson: So it happened yesterday where Lisa S: Okay. Lisa Wilson: I was talking to someone on the phone and I was like, I'm sorry, but and Lisa S: Mm. Lisa Wilson: I was like, I'm not sorry. Like, why am I apologizing for my negative outlook on something? Like it's earned, it's legitimate. Lisa S: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: Okay. Is there a time recently that you apologized, other than just n recently, where you're like, why did I apologize for that? Lisa S: Yeah. I had to take my dog to the vet today to get shots. And she she's like crazy, like crazy insane. So I'm con I like I find myself constantly apologizing for her. And the minute that I walked in, I'm like, I'm so sorry. She's the I'm so sorry. She's crazy. I'm so sorry. She's gonna bite you. I'm so sorry. Do you have a muzzle? I'm so sorry. And then they're handing her back to me in a wrap towel because they have to like wrap her up in a towel so she like can't see anything. And then they're handing me back to her and I'm just like, I'm so sorry. Like Lisa Wilson: Yeah. I think Lisa S: I think I said sorry thirty times. In thirty minutes. Lisa Wilson: Maybe maybe you should try and shoot for a record. Make give it a positive spent. Lisa S: I mean, I just kept, I just literally just kept it just kept rolling out of my life. I'm so sorry she just peed on the floor because she's scared. Like, I'm so sorry. And it's like, I'm gonna clean it up. Like she couldn't help it. She's scared to death. She's scared of life. She can't Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Lisa S: help it. But I apologized so many times that I'm just like, by the time I left, I'm just like, they're probably. Lisa Wilson: It's okay, man. I think that I think that that's kind of the theme of the episode, right? Is the theme of today's conversation is why we're always saying sorry for everything everywhere every time. And there's Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: so many different ways that we could look at this. But I don't apologize unless I really genuinely did actions that I later feel bad about, Like, like I'll give you an example. Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Okay. Lisa Wilson: So I was, I used to run every day when Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: in downtown DC. And you know that I'm an observer. I observe Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: people, right? I observe situations. Always gotta be ready. And so Lisa S: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: and I noticed that when you're running around this monument, there's like a narrower pathway. Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Okay. Lisa Wilson: And during the tourist season, it would get really crowded. And I when you run the same time every day, you start to see the same people every day. And I noticed this woman was like shoving people kind of out of her way when she was running. Like she would like shove, like body check them and kind of push them out of her way. And I was like, that's that's uncalled for. That's really Lisa S: Okay, hm, yeah. Lisa Wilson: so then you start thinking, like, what am I gonna do if that happens to me? Like, am I just gonna, you know, because these people feel terrible. They think they stepped on stepped into her way. And I'm watching all of this, you know? And I'm Lisa S: Yeah. Yeah. Lisa Wilson: like, so one day, finally, on a very hot day, it's like 98 degrees, 98% humidity. I come around the corner and here she comes. And I even gave a little bit of a berth because I knew she was like the pusher, you know what I mean? And she legit. Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Pusher Sally. Lisa Wilson: She legit body checks me and I body checked her back and she's on her ass. And I was like, I did. Listen. Lisa S: no. You like hit her to to the ground? wow. don't take. Lisa Wilson: Like it was, I'm, I was stronger than I thought, but the momentum, I think, Lisa S: Mm. Lisa Wilson: is what did it. Cause she pushed me and I like hooved and got her, got her back. Because one, I hate bullies. And two, Lisa S: Yeah. Yeah. Lisa Wilson: I think if people don't learn their lesson, repair, repeat. And I just felt like what she had been doing all summer was messed up. And so when I Lisa S: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: bent over, I helped her up, but I didn't apologize. I was like, maybe next time you can also give me some leeway so that we don't run into each other again. I never saw her again. Lisa S: Mm. That was that was very kind of you. Lisa Wilson: Well, listen, we need to be better at judging the situations and not Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: like we need to kind of like not give away our power, you know? I feel like apologizing has become a reflex, you know? Like, like so then it's Lisa S: A hundred percent. Yes. Yes. Lisa Wilson: it, the apology itself has lost its power. Lisa S: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: You know what I mean? It's just, it's a little weird. Like, and I don't I don't really get like why we do that. And I think that's what today's conversation is all about. But what are some things that you think women apologize for that is absolutely like not something they should apologize for? And I say women because I've never ever walked into someone's home and the guy was like, Hey, I'm sorry my dishes aren't done. Like never. Lisa S: Yeah. I mean that would be that would be the thing, like a messy house or like that you didn't straight yeah, didn't straighten up your dishes or whatever before someone stopped by, which you don't have to. I don't know, maybe setting a boundary, saying no. People apologize a lot for for that. I would say Lisa Wilson: So what do you mean like saying no? Lisa S: like say you have to say no to an obligation or something. It's like, I'm so sorry I'm not gonna be able to make it. Instead of saying, I have plans that evening. so hopefully I can catch you next time or something like that. Like instead of like rephrasing it, it's always like, I'm sorry I won't be able to to be there. sorry for I don't know if looking tired. I mean, I I feel like I look really tired and I Lisa Wilson: I think you look super pretty today. Lisa S: Well, I appreciate that, but I feel like I look really tired. So I normally would say, Lisa, I'm so sorry I look really tired. I did the best I could showing up here today. But I would have apologized to you that I that I was showing up looking a little haggitha. I don't know. Like I find myself all the time apologizing for, you know, dinner being later than I I would like it to, you know it not tasting the way I thought it was gonna taste. This new recipe that I tried, i.e. last night. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Lisa S: so you know, things like that. I think that's super fair. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Lisa S: to say that I think we we apologize for things that are not crimes. Like they're they're we did nothing bad. they were either accidents or or it was just life, right? Like Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Lisa S: Life can be messy, life can be late, life can be just not perfect. And I don't know why we Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Lisa S: apologize because because of that, but we do. Lisa Wilson: And it's not just us. Listen, like there is there are so many of my friends that apologize all the time for everything. I've thought a lot about this as well. Like, were we do you because I do apologize more than my husband does, like more than all of my guy friends do. Like women, it's just become part of our Of our language, right? Our Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: all of everything that we do. And I'm like, so do you think did we get trained to take accountability for everyone's feelings? Like through feeling like we are emotionally carrying that weight for them? Like, you've had a bad day, I'm sorry. You Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: don't have you bounced to check today. I'm sorry. Like rather than be Lisa S: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: like, hey, walk me through how that makes you feel. We Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: just took shortcuts to Right to I'm sorry. Okay. Lisa S: I mean, that's actually a good point because I find myself as a mom feeling responsible for a lot of people's feelings and like how they sh you know, how they show up. Like I know that I apologize. yeah, for like, I'm sorry that you woke up late today and you're, you know, you're running behind and you're not gonna get the breakfast that you want or whatever. I'm so sorry. Why am I sorry? I didn't wake up late. Like, Lisa Wilson: They woke up late. Lisa S: you know, like I'm so sorry. Like this literally happens. Like, I'm so sorry that I have to wake you up. I don't wake I I don't wake up my child. Like he has an alarm clock. But like if I have to wake him up early because I have a meeting and I'm not gonna see him off to school or something like that. Like I will, I'm sorry, I have to wake you up ten minutes early. He's not gonna die. He's fine, you know? Just constantly apologizing for for all the all the things. Like Lisa Wilson: Think that it's normal for us, right? I feel like again, Lisa S: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: we somewhere along the way as Gen X, and we'll get into the different age groups in a second, but as Gen X, we Lisa S: Mm. Lisa Wilson: we never had anyone say they were sorry to us. Nope. Lisa S: Ha ha ha. Lisa Wilson: but in order to like not upset Lisa S: Mm-mm. Lisa Wilson: a parent or upset a sibling, like I feel like somewhere along the way, it became our job. To make everybody Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: else in the room feel better. And and Lisa S: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: we never learned how to use our words. Like we never were like, I'm angry, I'm sad, I'm happy. It was like, I'm angry and I'm sad. The end. Like that was that was the breadth of our emotions, right? So Lisa S: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: it's hard to have a complicated emotional conversation when someone is handing you like all of these things that have happened to them because you want to show empathy. Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: But like, are you sorry? Like or in your head are you like, Well, your Lisa S: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: decisions brought you there? Like, you know. Lisa S: Yeah, and I also think too, I you kind of yeah, you want to keep the peace. I know that I'm Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Lisa S: I want to be able to try to keep the peace as much as possible. I mean, I'm not definitely not perfect, but if I have a choice, that would be the route I want to take. So I will apologize or or be the f be someone that will be like, okay, I'm just I'm super sorry that I showed up that way or whatever when it's wasn't even like Lisa Wilson: No, I Lisa S: I shouldn't be. Lisa Wilson: think that that's that's a really good point. I think lots of us apologize to keep the peace. Like it's Lisa S: Yeah, I know I do. Lisa Wilson: easier to say I'm sorry than to walk through whatever complicated situation that that happened there. Yeah. Lisa S: And conflict management. I don't think we have not everyone has the proper tools to do that appropriately. So it's just so much easier to be like, I'm I'm just gonna put it out there. I'm sorry. Sorry for what? Sorry for showing up? Like, Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Lisa S: and I'm not saying that I have n never had any accountability in any situation, but that's when we should be apologizing for. Like when we actually physically hurt someone or when we were physically made someone we were disrespectful or we Lisa Wilson: That sounded judgy, Lisa. No, I'm just joking. Lisa S: No, no, it wasn't. I'm sorry you feel that way. But no, like if we broke a promise or something when we actually truly put someone out, but Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Yes. Yes. Lisa S: if But I don't really use that as a gauge when I'm saying sorry. I I'm not like, okay, did I hurt them? No, did I it's not my filter. It's just so yeah, I I think that I have I have some room to grow for sure. Okay. Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: So Gen Xers, when we apologize, we apologize and we move on. Like if they want to keep talking about it, we're like, why are you talking about this? I already apologized. Like, like, quit Lisa S: Yeah, like we're moving forward. Yeah. Yeah. Lisa Wilson: like say it, forget it, move on, right? Lisa S: Mm. Lisa Wilson: Millennials are the ones that introduced apologies for everything. I'm sorry about my email. I'm sorry I was early. I'm sorry I was Lisa S: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: late. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. I'm sorry you're mad at me. I'm sorry I wasn't there. Lisa S: Wow. Lisa Wilson: I'm they really, really did kind of introduce this, I'm sorry, as like A new language, right? And they're every Lisa S: Okay. Lisa Wilson: day. And then Gen Z. I just I love Gen Z with my whole heart because I've I'm so like I'm kind of crushing on Gen Z and the fact that they are ruthless. So they'll be like, Lisa S: Ha ha. Lisa Wilson: Hey, I understand you're upset with me, but let me walk you through the 25 reasons why that's wrong. Lisa S: Ha ha. Lisa Wilson: Like, so you know, like they have they come with receipts, they are. Lisa S: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: Very good at expressing themselves emotionally to the point where you are suddenly like apologizing to them because of they're making you feel bad because you Lisa S: 'Cause you're breathing. Lisa Wilson: you should not have been sorry. Like we talked about this. I explained to you this would happen, and now you're upset. So I'm sorry that you're upset, but that's on you. Like ruthless. I just Lisa S: Ooh, I have to I have to think though. I I I mean, I think you're right. A hundred percent. I have a niece that's just Lisa Wilson: But listen. Lisa S: And that's how that's literally how she communicates. And then she and then she's done. I mean, yeah. Mm. Lisa Wilson: Yes. Like I love the Gen Z. I wish I I wish like they're the ones that are like, like I saw this one call and the person was like, Hey, you're supposed to be on camera. And the Gen Z person says, That's not in my employment agreement. And the Lisa S: Huh. Lisa Wilson: manager was like, Okay, but I'm asking everyone here be on camera. And they were like, Again, that's not in my employment agreement. And I'm not turning my camera on. And the person was like, Well, we can talk about this offline. And they're like, Actually, we can't. So if because I am not talking about this beyond this meeting, it's not anywhere in my work statement that I need to turn my camera on or talk to you about why I will or won't turn my camera on. So we're not gonna have that conversation later. if you need me to meet with you and HR and have a mediator discussion, we can do that. Lisa S: I mean Lisa Wilson: I mean, hero, hero. Lisa S: I mean good for them. I would have been Lisa Wilson: I mean, 'cause you and I Lisa S: like, my gosh, okay. I'm so sorry. I I didn't know my camera was. Lisa Wilson: Like you need to put your camera on. I mean I I just Lisa S: But look I look what I just said. I was like, I'm so sorry. Yes, let me turn my camera on. That's what I would have. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: Exactly. Right? So listen, if you guys are watching us on YouTube, because Gen Z does not listen to podcasts, they watch podcasts, you guys are badasses. And I think that Lisa S: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: we can all take a lesson from you. I think it's amazing that you don't apologize first. You you dissect the situation, you use facts, you analyze it, Lisa S: Mm. Mm. Lisa Wilson: and then you do what the facts support. I mean, yes, I'm Lisa S: I mean I'm I'm in. I could learn. Definitely could learn. I mean, definitely could learn a lot from that. Lisa Wilson: A hundred pr I just think it's great. I think it's so cool. So maybe Lisa S: And where so where did they learn this from? How did they learn this from their millennial parents? Lisa Wilson: Because maybe their millennial parents apologize too much. Like, look at us. Like, we're Gen Xers. Our parents never apologized for shit. Like, Lisa S: Yeah, true that. Lisa Wilson: like you I walked around on a broken leg for two weeks, never Lisa S: Ha ha. Lisa Wilson: got an apology. I got a slurpee, but no apology. Right? Lisa S: The pendulum just keeps swinging. That's really what it sounds like. Lisa Wilson: So what is an alpha gonna do? God, I hope they're sociopaths. Lisa S: Ha ha ha Lisa Wilson: I hope they're just straight up sociopaths. Lisa S: You know you know what's so f you know what's so funny? I just I don't I don't really th I don't know, I don't I don't do they apologize at all? Lisa Wilson: I don't know. I didn't go that far. I just wanted but I definitely I definitely want to look into it, right? I just I think Lisa S: That's funny. We'll have to look into it. Lisa Wilson: it's great. And I think that every generation apologizes. I mean, I know that Gen Z, they do apologize. They apologize for you not getting it. Lisa S: I'm so sorry. You didn't understand. Lisa Wilson: But they do apologize, right? So you don't I'm sorry you don't understand. I'm sorry this Lisa S: Ha ha Lisa Wilson: is hard for you, but it's not hard for me in any way. Like God, I just love them so much. so let's talk about Lisa S: I love that so much. Lisa Wilson: what actually deserves a sorry. Lisa S: Yeah, I think I think just to be to be clear, like if if you hurt someone, if you if you you know made someone very super inconvenienced because of your behavior, like if you were an hour late to the airport and you guys missed your flight, like that would that would require a sorry, I think. Lisa Wilson: Yep. Lisa S: that's disrespectful also. So Doing anything out of disrespect, I would say, yeah, breaking a promise. you know, being hurtful, hurting someone's feelings. well, you can't really control other people's feelings. But if you were disrespectful and rude, then yeah, sorry should should follow, I would say. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Lisa S: and then or like just owning your owning it. Like if you did something, Lisa Wilson: Owning your behavior. Lisa S: yeah, if you did something incorrect. Or you made a mistake or something you should say you're sorry. It's being polite. Okay. Lisa Wilson: Yep. So for me, I have like a gut check, right? So like when I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: Abraham Lincoln. But it's literally a mantra I live my life by. And Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: there have been times where I have said things that I said, and this happened with us. I said something to you about someone else. if that other Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: when that other person I thought heard me, I was mortified because it was mean and catty. Lisa S: Yes. Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: I don't talk about people to their face. I talk about them behind their back like a lady. Right? But like when I thought they heard me, I was like I could have crawled under a table and died. Lisa S: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: And so I really do When I apologize and it's real, like I really go out of my way. And I'm like, please like, and I walk them through how it happened. Like we've had arguments before where I'm like, I feel terrible that you Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lisa Wilson: thought that I said this and this is how you received it. And it was never intended that way. Like I really do try to to stay on the right side of karma, you know? But Lisa S: Yeah, you do. Lisa Wilson: but I think that One of the things I've really worked on over the past, I don't know, five years is that if I bump into someone, I don't say I'm sorry. Like I'm like, excuse me. Right. Because I I really Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: look at that like, don't give your power away. Or if someone can't hear if I'm talking, people can't hear me. I don't say, I'm sorry you couldn't hear me. I'm like, how can I make this better? Do you need me to turn the volume up? Do you need me to slow down? Lisa S: Good way to put it. Lisa Wilson: Like, how do we make this better? Lisa S: I I would have said, I'm sorry that you are losing your hearing. And it's not my fault. Or Lisa Wilson: Sorry, grandma. Lisa S: or yeah, or or no, because it's it's so so so true. Like, or I'm sorry, it's really loud in here and you can't hear me. Why is that my fault? That's not my fault. It's Lisa Wilson: Right. Lisa S: not my fault. Lisa Wilson: So if it's not your fault, you shouldn't be saying sorry. Lisa S: Yeah, that's okay. Yeah, that could go on my list. Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: That's a I think that is a good kind of golden rule for us to think about as we go through the next part of our our episode. But like when you were growing up, Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: who taught you to say I'm sorry? Was it something that you just did inherently as the oldest child with a very volatile environment? Or Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: like who taught you how to say sorry? Lisa S: I mean The environment, I mean, it wasn't wasn't bad. It was just I think I was always apologizing, I think I was born with it. I don't think anyone taught me to say I I'm supposed to say I'm sorry. I just think I was born with it. I think Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Lisa S: I I think I apologized for probably apologized for my siblings a lot, I think I apologized a lot just because I Just did. I think I was born this way. Lisa Wilson: I think you are. But I think Lisa S: Okay. Lisa Wilson: that somewhere along the line, saying I'm sorry started meaning it went from I did something wrong to Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: don't be mad at me. Don't Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: think I'm rude. Don't think I'm a bad person. Don't be uncomfortable because of me. And Lisa S: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: I think that we've really kind of blurred the lines between actual behaviors that we caused where it we did something wrong. That we need to apologize for and Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: carrying everyone else's fucking weight of like, Lisa S: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: like, okay, again, I'm sorry that you lost your job. Or Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: why do you think you lost your job? What happened there? And what is your plan? What are you gonna do? Like, it feels Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: less empathetic. It feels like a jerky thing to say, right? Lisa S: Mm-hmm. That would be such a jerky thing to say to someone who just lost their job. You Lisa Wilson: Correct. Correct. Lisa S: you want to empathize and I'm so sorry. I understand, or I feel you. It kind of it kind of sets the tone for I feel what you're feeling, or I or I can understand how you might be feeling saying Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Lisa S: I'm sorry this happened or whatever. yeah, what can I do? Yeah. Lisa Wilson: Like what can I do? That sucks. What can I do? Is better than I'm sorry, right? Lisa S: Mm-hmm. I mean yeah, but like sometimes I just I want someone to say like I'm sorry. That really sucks I'm sorry, that just really sucks. Lisa Wilson: Dude, I'm gonna say I'm sorry to you forever for the rest of our natural life. maybe the weirdest part I think women definitely apologize more than men. I think that women Lisa S: Mm. Lisa Wilson: use it as an emotional crutch more Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: than men do, like rather than having that. complicated sticky conversation around whatever it is that you're apologizing for. Or like, like I was thinking about this. You came to my house once and my dog pooped on the floor. Remember that? And I was like, Lisa S: Yeah. Yeah. Lisa Wilson: I'm sorry. Like that's not my fault. But I was so in Lisa S: It's not your fault. Lisa Wilson: I was so embarrassed because he was off. He was off his game and it he was an older dog. And like Lisa S: No Yeah, yeah Yeah. Lisa Wilson: again, like was I really sorry or did I feel like I needed to like Apologize 'cause you witnessed it. Lisa S: You felt like you needed to apologize because it was your animal, but it was your Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Lisa S: house. It's your carpet. It was your rug. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Lisa S: It wasn't mine. I mean, I can understand if it was like maybe at my house and I Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Lisa S: just got brand new carpet, but you can clean it. See, that's the thing. When you like there was nothing to be sorry about. He couldn't help it. He couldn't help it at all. Yeah, Lisa Wilson: I mean if I had pooped on the if I had pooped on the floor. Lisa S: that's different. That's different. But there was no reason Lisa Wilson: I had done so. Lisa S: Reason. Lisa Wilson: I mean there might be a day. I don't know. I hope not. Lisa S: I sure hope not. Just don't call me. Don't call me down. If if that's what Lisa Wilson: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha hace. Lisa S: you're doing with your life, don't call me down. Lisa Wilson: I will do my best. But I think that, you know, women, again, not to beat a dead horse here, but women apologize more than men. We use apologies as an emotional crutch so that we're not like doing the hard work, coming up with a more clever creative or engaging, actually engaging in the topic that everyone's kind of talking about. Like I will do, like, I'm sorry, I wasn't listening. Like, and I wasn't. Like, I'll do that, I do that, but I think that's okay. but you have. Lisa S: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: You have you are the president and CEO of the mom apology department in your house, right? Lisa S: I am, I am, again, I think I apologize to my son with more than it's probably normal. Like I'll apologize for yeah, like the other night, I apologized because I burnt the cheese on the on the dinner. I'm so sorry it's burnt. And he's like, it's good that way. Like, but why was I sorry? That's delicious. It looked delicious. But to me, it looked like it was burnt. And that's not how it looked like on Instagram. And so he doesn't know what it looked like on Instagram. you know, yeah, I apologize to him about yeah, working late. I apologize that I'm gonna have to be in a meeting and can't do this or whatever. I apologize to him for I don't know. I think I apologize to him. 'Cause I always have a lot of mom guilt that I'm not like good enough. Like I haven't shown up the in the best way I possibly can. So I'm constantly apologizing. Like constantly apologizing that you know we didn't do anything fun this weekend, or constantly apologizing that I don't know, we can't go to his favorite sandwich shop. Cause I have other things I gotta do or whatever. And it's like, and he's doesn't even care. He doesn't care. And like every time I apologize, or like if I'm being snappy one day, cause you know, that happens, and I'm like, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. And he's just like, sorry for what? Like it was already he's already like moved past it, like forgot about it, you know? But I I apologize for being an imperfect mother. All the time. And I I would like to not because all I feel like I'm doing is teaching him to just always be sorry for like everything you do. Lisa Wilson: But does he apologize a lot? Exactly. Lisa S: No, that's what I was saying. He didn't know. No, I don't I have to say I'm looking for an apology. And then he'll be like, I'm sorry. Like, but it's not even he could well, he never does anything like egregious or anything crazy that Lisa Wilson: No. Lisa S: I need this big drawn out apology. But there have been times where I'm like, that's what I'm looking for, is you know, I'm sorry, mom, that X, Y, Z happened. And it's not ever the first thing that comes out of his mouth. So that's why I'm like, do I say sorry so much that it's just like lost its juice, you know? Like what you were talking about? Like, Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Lisa S: I wonder if that if that's actually a thing. Cause like that's not the first thing he goes to. He doesn't go to mom, I'm so sorry that I, you know, I didn't get this done or whatever, or I didn't get my chores done, or he never says, No, no. Lisa Wilson: But I mean, I think that that's I think that that's very interesting, right? Because he has a mom Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: who apologizes for everything all the time. And Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: his first go-to is never an apology. He's still not even like aware when you want an apology. But you're Lisa S: No. Lisa Wilson: teaching him how to kind of be emotionally aware. And I think that that's really important. I think that's great. I mean, I think that his his girlfriend will have to apologize a lot. Lisa S: Yeah. Well, and you know what I think it is too is I think it's like he processes he sits and he'll process the situation and and he's thinking and I'm like, I just want him to say I'm sorry. Like real quick, just say you're sorry and like we can move on. But he's just sitting there and like thinking, and I'm like, what are you thinking about? Just say something, just say something, I don't know, give me an explanation or whatever. And he's just like, I just don't know what you want me to say. And I'm like, I just want a sorry. I just want a sorry. And he just he doesn't. And that's just him. And I don't know if it's all kids his age, but it's he's but he's not like mean. It's not like he's Lisa Wilson: No. Lisa S: like will never say sorry. He just like doesn't understand why he has to, 'cause it wasn't like, can we just move on? Like Lisa Wilson: That's an important point. He doesn't feel like he has to. There's nothing Lisa S: Can we just move on? Yeah. Lisa Wilson: that he feels like that does that's earned that apology, right? Man, Lisa S: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: to be a a 16-year-old guy, like I will. Lisa S: Yeah. I mean and and honestly, and we've gone through this so much over the last few years of like I just need you to say sorry. Just say sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Lisa Wilson: Like, son, I just need you to say sorry, son. That's what I need you to say. Lisa S: Yeah. And guess what? He's like, okay. I mean, sorry. Like Lisa Wilson: Sorry. Lisa S: yeah. And it's he's like confused when he says it out loud. Lisa Wilson: Yeah, but your son is also one of the most chill people I've ever met in my life. Like I I just I Lisa S: That is true. That is true. He's pretty cool. Lisa Wilson: think that emotionally he's very level. So that might have something to do with it as well. But look, we Lisa S: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: both had a homework assignment Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: to track how many times in a day you you're you said that you were sorry Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: and what like what were the ones that were like, it just came out and what were the ones that were real. So how many, what was your count? for sorries when you track them. Lisa S: Okay, so I didn't even leave the house this particular day though until I think I left at like 3:30, 3 o'clock, 3:30. And I had been home all day, not working. Okay. Lisa Wilson: Mm, mm. Lisa S: So I wasn't even around people until from I was only around people from 330 to like 630. And I apologized seven times. Seven. Seven. Seven times. And my a hundred percent of them was reflex. None of them were genuine. I didn't hurt anyone. I didn't do anything to anyone that day. That day. and it's kind of embarrassing. When I was looking at the list, because I was going through because I was like, my gosh, I gotta get this this assignment done. I don't wanna have to tell Lisa I'm so sorry I didn't do it. So But like I was looking back at the list and I was like, this is damn ridiculous. Some of these are so dumb that I and it was in a span of literally like Lisa Wilson: Yeah. What was the dumbest one? Lisa S: three hours around people. And I apologize seven times. Lisa Wilson: What Which was the one that was the most ridiculous? Lisa S: Okay, so I was meeting a contractor and to do some work, and I had given him the address to meet, and he was like late. It was like 10 minutes after he was supposed to be there. So I text him and I'm like, Are you still coming? Question mark. And he's like, Yes, I'm having a hard time finding the house. And I'm like, I'm so sorry. You go here. Where are you at? you go here, you go here, you go here. And I'm like, what the hell? There's something called map quest? It would have driven you right there. Why am I saying I'm sorry? I must have given you the wrong dire. I didn't give him directions. I gave him the address. So type Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Lisa S: it in the type it in. So I was apologizing for him being late because he couldn't find the house. No, he was just late because he was late. So instead of Instead of I literally led the text message. I'm so sorry. Where are you at? I can help guide you. Like, d Google Maps, like what? Lisa Wilson: Look for the flare. That's where I'm at. Lisa S: I will go out in front of the house so you can see. Like I was what? Like you're a contractor. Use MapQuest w whatever map service you use and get there and be on time or contact somebody. He should have said, I'm so sorry I'm late. Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Lisa S: But instead I I took all of that responsibility off of him a hundred percent. And it was became my fault for not, yeah, throwing a flare in the air to make sure that I he guided he was guided in appropriately. What Lisa Wilson: So I Lisa S: was okay, what about you? How many did you have? Lisa Wilson: It was more than I thought it would be. Now Lisa S: Okay. Lisa Wilson: I it was like a twelve hour travel day that started at like four AM and I got Lisa S: Okay. Lisa Wilson: home at like four PM East Coast time, so one o'clock. So a very long travel day. And Lisa S: Okay, okay, yeah. Lisa Wilson: I it was more than I anticipated. It was three times. Lisa S: that's a lot for you. Lisa Wilson: So for me, it's a lot. But the first one was my brother the night before I made us all order from this Greek restaurant Lisa S: Mm. Lisa Wilson: and he got really sick from it. So the next morning he's up at three o'clock because he's been up all night sick. And he's gonna Lisa S: Mm. Lisa Wilson: take us to the airport. And I'm like, I am so sorry that I picked a restaurant that gave you food poisoning. I Lisa S: Not your fault. Lisa Wilson: feel terrible about that. But still. if I hadn't picked the place, I would have still said, I'm sorry, you're sick to your stomach. Like that's terri and that you have to take us to the airport. Like, you know. And Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That you're still taking us. Lisa Wilson: but you're still taking us. Get in the car. the other two times were the I'm sorry, but and they were both Lisa S: Okay. Lisa Wilson: during conversations with Doug where we were talking about a situation, and I was like, I'm sorry. But until this little experiment. So I was really surprised. Lisa S: Yeah. I mean Lisa, I'm sorry, but yeah, I s but Lisa Wilson: I'm sorry, but no. Or I'm sorry, she knew better. Like those types of things. You know what I mean? Lisa S: Mmm. Is that so annoying? Lisa Wilson: it's so common, Lisa. I think that there's a lot of people that are out there listening to us on Apple that are like, I apologize twenty five times today for things that were not my fault. Like I it's Lisa S: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: like that the it's like an apology epidemic. You know what I mean? Like we're Lisa S: Yeah, like Lisa Wilson: all apologizing for everything all the time, but nobody's no behavior is changing. Right? And I think Lisa S: Yeah, no. Yeah. Lisa Wilson: that that's where like we gotta kinda like Say, okay, so if I'm gonna stop apologizing for things that are not warranting an apology, what Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: are what's an example of that? Lisa S: I mean, I don't want to apologize for me anymore. Like, I don't want to apologize because Yeah, that I'm like taking up space or like I'm who I am or I talk this way or I show up this way or I just am not I just I'm not doing it. Anything that you're just not gonna apologize for anymore. Lisa Wilson: For things that I didn't do anything wrong. I mean, I I Lisa S: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: know that I've said that, but I really like the I'm sorry, but I'm gonna stop doing that. I just feel like apologies lose their power. Like I heard something the other day that was like Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: like when they apologize but the behavior doesn't change, that's manipulation. Lisa S: Ooh, ooh. Okay, that's it's pretty intense. Lisa Wilson: Right. And I was like, yes. So am I just if I if I say I'm sorry for something that I'm not really genuinely sorry for, I'm just manipulating that other person, like into doing whatever I kind of want them to do. So change the behavior and know. Lisa S: Hmm. Could be. It definitely could be. I don't know. It's not that way in my sense. I don't think I'm trying to manipulate any situation with me apologizing for every damn thing. But Lisa Wilson: No. Lisa S: it could look a certain way. I mean, I used to apologize. I remember one team team team member of mine had approached me one day and was like, Stop saying sorry. Like, just things happen. Like just because, you know, your name's on this, like, doesn't mean that I mean, we're all in it too. So why Lisa Wilson: Mm-hmm. Lisa S: are you all you why are you apologizing to us? I'm like, yeah. I mean, why? I don't know. And maybe it was just because I'm like, I didn't want to feel like I let them down or something. I don't I don't know I don't know, but it is Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Lisa S: good when people call you out though. So like we could hold each other accountable, which Is why I'm saying like I appreciated that because it made me more aware of how many times I do say sorry, say sorry in the workplace. I apologized the other day for working extra on a project Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Lisa S: because the email wasn't clear and I read the email 1400 times and I did exactly what the email said, and then all of a sudden it wasn't what I had worked on for a couple hours. Wasn't actually like what needed to be done because the email wasn't clear. So, like, why did I say, I'm so sorry that I delivered something when I didn't, I couldn't have even completed the task the way that you wanted it because I didn't have all the information. Lisa, tell me why I apologize. Why did I apologize for? Lisa Wilson: Because you don't know what else to say. Lisa S: Yeah, I was and that that maybe is also another thing. It was like, okay, I'll just take accountability. Cause at this point. What are you gonna Lisa Wilson: I mean, so I think what we need to do is say, okay, for our high five this week, Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: we are gonna stop apologizing for things that when we didn't do anything wrong. Lisa S: Mm. Lisa Wilson: Right? So for example, today I'm on a call and very cognizant of this podcast that we're gonna have this afternoon. And Lisa S: Mm. Lisa Wilson: someone says to me, the file that you sent. doesn't make sense to me. Lisa S: Okay. Lisa Wilson: And rather than me saying, I'm sorry, let me pull this up and walk you through it, which is right, I was like, Lisa S: Ooh, that's what I would have done. Yep. Lisa Wilson: well walk me through why. Lisa S: Mm. Lisa Wilson: Like let's walk, like you tell me why it's not making sense. So then Lisa S: Mm. Lisa Wilson: that way I can help you understand it. Very gen Z of me. Lisa S: Yes. Lisa Wilson: but that was my high five. So I was like, aha, see? Like I'm I am learning. I Lisa S: I love it. Lisa Wilson: am gonna get better at this. And again, I don't think there's anything wrong with apologizing if you did something wrong. Right? So, what's your high Lisa S: Yeah. Yeah, I think Lisa Wilson: five this week Lisa S: Well, I'm gonna first continue the exercise and track how many times I say I'm sorry because I think that was really eye opening to me the other day that I could have that I said sorry seven times in three hours, the only time I left the house. If I would have been at work, I probably would have said it more. If I would have gone out and went to the grocery store or whatever, I probably it probably would have been way more than seven. So I am going to my high five is that I need to have a little bit more self-awareness that I'm actually doing it. And in order to do that, I need to track it for a little while. So I'm gonna spend this week, this is my commitment. I'm gonna spend this week trying to track as many as I can and like writing down how what I wrote down. Like, okay, tally, once I said it, what did I say? And then I can kind of go back and and figure out. Is are there compartments that I always apologize about or apologize for? And then hopefully I can start to change behavior because it's gonna be a process. This is literally who I am. I Lisa Wilson: Yeah. Lisa S: apologize for waking up in the morning. Like I, you know, I like literally apologize for everything. So yeah, I know that it's something that I need to work on, and I'm happy, I'd be happy to, to your point, take back some power. Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: Take back that power. So listen, you guys, we we've got to answer the question, Lisa. So do you think are we really sorry or do we just feel like we're supposed to be? Lisa S: I feel like I'm supposed to be sorry. Lisa Wilson: I think that it is absolutely Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: we are trying to land the emotional plane Lisa S: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: by saying we're sorry for whatever is happening in whatever room we're in. Either don't be mad at me, don't think I'm a jerk, Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: can we just get past this uncomfortable silence if I just say I'm Lisa S: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: sorry? so I don't I think most of our apologies. Are not genuine apologies for anything that was within our control. And I think that is what we need to fix. Right. Like, let's just be better Lisa S: Agree. Agree. Lisa Wilson: about not doing that. So listen, if you're listening to us and you guys are like, my God, I'm Lisa Wilson. I never apologize for anything, or I'm Lisa Smith, I'm sorry. Like we want to hear about it. So what are you apologizing Lisa S: I'm so sorry. I think I'm her. Lisa Wilson: for? That you're like, I'm not doing this anymore because I listened to this and you guys look, we're all gonna change our behaviors because it gives away your power when you apologize Lisa S: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: for everything all the time. And it takes the power away from the apology when you apologize all the time, right? It doesn't mean as much. And Lisa S: Very true. Lisa Wilson: I think that that is kind of a big deal. So like make sure you let us know. put it in the put it in the chat. We're on all the socials, you can find us everywhere. We want to hear what you guys are thinking. And just remember, you know, stay hydrated, unclench jaw, Lisa S: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lisa Wilson: roll your shoulders back, only apologize when you mean it, and go high-five somebody. Have a great week, guys. Bye. Lisa S: Uh-huh. Have a great week. I