Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #076 Jason Flom with Doug DiLosa and Chris Pourciau on Amendment 2

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#076 Jason Flom with Doug DiLosa and Chris Pourciau on Amendment 2 · Wrongful Conviction

0:02
Speaker 1: I've never been in trouble in my life.
0:03
Speaker 2: I didn't even have a parking ticket, you know what
0:05
Speaker 2: I mean.
0:05
Speaker 1: I was brought up with cops are the good guys.
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Speaker 3: I didn't know what was going to happen, but I
0:11
Speaker 3: do know that everything was stacked against me.
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Speaker 2: Everything like everything.
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Speaker 3: This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I
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Speaker 3: know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do
0:24
Speaker 3: with this. How is this possible?
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Speaker 4: I grew up trusting the systems. I've grew up believing
0:30
Speaker 4: that every human being should do the right thing. And
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Speaker 4: that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with
0:35
Speaker 4: coorerough people, I wasn't going to break anyone to get
0:38
Speaker 4: me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the
0:40
Speaker 4: fact that I break my way out of my wife's death.
0:44
Speaker 2: I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I
0:47
Speaker 2: prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me.
0:51
Speaker 2: Our system.
0:52
Speaker 1: Since I've been out ten years, it has come a
0:53
Speaker 1: little ways, but it's still broken.
0:56
Speaker 4: I totally lost trusting humanity after what happened to me.
1:02
Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. Today
1:24
Speaker 1: we have a very special episode that I know I
1:27
Speaker 1: say that a lot, but this time it's really true.
1:30
Speaker 1: This week's episode is a call to action because we're
1:34
Speaker 1: here to talk about the non unanimous jury problem in
1:37
Speaker 1: Louisiana and constitutional amendment too, which is on the ballot
1:41
Speaker 1: next month November sixth, and it needs to be eliminated.
1:45
Speaker 1: Today we have one of my favorite human beings and
1:48
Speaker 1: a personal hero of mine, Doug Delosa. Doug, welcome back
1:51
Speaker 1: to Wrongful Conviction.
1:52
Speaker 2: Thank you, Jason, pleasure to be back.
1:54
Speaker 1: And we have a guy whose name I can't pronounce
1:56
Speaker 1: but I'm going to try it anyway, who is a
1:59
Speaker 1: glutton for punishment. Let's just say that Chris Puscho is
2:02
Speaker 1: here for the first time. Welcome to Wrongful Conviction.
2:04
Speaker 2: Chris, thank you for having me.
2:05
Speaker 1: Jason, and by way of introduction, both of these guys
2:09
Speaker 1: are Louisiana natives, and we're here for a very specific
2:12
Speaker 1: purpose today, which is to discuss the non unanimous jury
2:16
Speaker 1: verdict problem in Louisiana, which is a unique and really
2:20
Speaker 1: terrifying problem, but with any luck at all, it's about
2:24
Speaker 1: to get fixed. And Doug, you have a very personal
2:28
Speaker 1: take on this because you are someone who was sentenced
2:31
Speaker 1: to life in prison after a non unanimous jury declared
2:35
Speaker 1: you guilty, and so you I mean, I can't even
2:38
Speaker 1: imagine what this looks like through your eyes. But once
2:40
Speaker 1: you elaborate a little on that situation.
2:43
Speaker 2: I was tried and convicted a second degree murder back
2:46
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty seven, and the jury verdict was eleven
2:50
Speaker 2: to one. It was a non unanimous verdict, and from
2:54
Speaker 2: my understanding, after quite a bit of deliberation, numerous votes,
3:01
Speaker 2: at one point in time, the most people they had
3:05
Speaker 2: for conviction was eight, with four people holding out saying
3:10
Speaker 2: that I was not guilty. Then the bailiff comes in
3:13
Speaker 2: and says, if y'all don't come in with a verdict
3:16
Speaker 2: in the next couple of minutes, we're going to have
3:18
Speaker 2: to continue this in the morning, and lo and behold,
3:22
Speaker 2: three of the four people decided to change their minds, like, well,
3:28
Speaker 2: you know, the majority of people feel you're guilty, We're
3:31
Speaker 2: just going to vote guilty so we can get out
3:32
Speaker 2: of here. So I was sent to prison for life
3:35
Speaker 2: with no opportunity for parole, probation, suspension of sentence, and
3:41
Speaker 2: the verdict even after that was non unanimous. And you know,
3:46
Speaker 2: I may be opinionated and a little bit biased, but
3:50
Speaker 2: with even one person saying that I'm not guilty, to me,
3:56
Speaker 2: that's reasonable doubt.
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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, reasonable. I mean it's eight percent of
4:01
Speaker 1: the jury, basically, right, more than eight percent of the jury,
4:04
Speaker 1: And it's insane. I mean in your case. First of all,
4:07
Speaker 1: let's just reflect for a second on the idea that
4:10
Speaker 1: those three jurors who slipped, you know, who flipped their
4:13
Speaker 1: vote at the last minute, apparently felt that their evening
4:17
Speaker 1: at home was more valuable than the rest of your life,
4:20
Speaker 1: which is hard to process. I mean, I can't imagine
4:24
Speaker 1: what was going through their minds. But and I know
4:26
Speaker 1: the details of your case. Anyone who's listened to your
4:28
Speaker 1: episode on Wrongful Conviction knows that no reasonable person could
4:33
Speaker 1: have listened to the evidence that was presented. Even though
4:36
Speaker 1: they framed you egregiously, they still couldn't have possibly looked
4:39
Speaker 1: at that and said, yep, I'm absolutely sure this guy
4:42
Speaker 1: killed his wife. Because the circumstances of your case are
4:46
Speaker 1: as crazy as any I've heard, and I've heard hundreds
4:49
Speaker 1: of them. So and Chris, let's turn to you, because
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Speaker 1: Chris is the deputy director of the Unanimous Jury Coalition,
4:57
Speaker 1: and you've had a lot of experience in trying to
5:01
Speaker 1: do what you can to bring some justice to the
5:05
Speaker 1: injustice system in Louisiana. But first, let me ask you
5:08
Speaker 1: this question, because having been a public defender and everything else,
5:13
Speaker 1: in probably the toughest place in the country to be
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Speaker 1: a public defender. Are there any other states? I know
5:18
Speaker 1: the answer to this question, but are there any other
5:20
Speaker 1: states that have a non unanimous jury verdict?
5:22
Speaker 2: One?
5:23
Speaker 5: Which one aside from louise and it's organ Oregon.
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Speaker 1: I think they're working on fixing it too.
5:29
Speaker 5: Because we probably have that fixed in the spring.
5:34
Speaker 1: Right And I'm yeah, I actually met with the governor
5:37
Speaker 1: and spoke to her about it. I know she'd like to
5:38
Speaker 1: see it fixed as well. But the but back to
5:42
Speaker 1: this this crazy question, and certainly Oregon is a much
5:45
Speaker 1: smaller problem because they have a tiny fraction of the
5:48
Speaker 1: number of cases that go through the They probably have
5:50
Speaker 1: less cases than New Orleans, I would guess as a state.
5:53
Speaker 1: But we can't prove that. Yeah, I can't prove that.
5:55
Speaker 1: I don't know, but that's a guess. But how does
5:59
Speaker 1: this situation even exists? Why does it exist, Chris, I mean,
6:04
Speaker 1: what was the origin of this non unanimous jury verdict?
6:09
Speaker 1: A protocol?
6:10
Speaker 2: Let me just interject that while Oregon is the only
6:14
Speaker 2: other state in the United States where they have such
6:17
Speaker 2: a thing as a non unanimous jury verdict, Louisiana is
6:21
Speaker 2: the only state where a person can be sentenced to
6:25
Speaker 2: life imprisonment on less than the unanimous jury verdict. So
6:30
Speaker 2: in Oregon, while a person can be convicted with an
6:33
Speaker 2: eleven to one or ten to two, they can't be
6:36
Speaker 2: sentenced to life in prison.
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Speaker 1: And that's a tough cross to bear, I mean, and
6:41
Speaker 1: tough it is, obviously to the light of a word
6:44
Speaker 1: for that, But I can't imagine for you or anyone else.
6:49
Speaker 1: And it's You're not an isolated case. And we'll talk
6:53
Speaker 1: about that in a second. To be sitting there spending
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Speaker 1: the rest of your life in prison knowing that a
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Speaker 1: jury of your peers didn't actually vote to convict you.
7:02
Speaker 1: They they It's called a hung jury for a reason, right,
7:05
Speaker 1: I mean, if anything, you should have been given a retrial,
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Speaker 1: and you know, if the jury couldn't decide, then we
7:14
Speaker 1: know what happens. They go home and you start all
7:17
Speaker 1: over again. Sometime in the future. But that's obviously now
7:19
Speaker 1: what happened. How common is it for people to be
7:23
Speaker 1: sentenced to prison or even life in prison in Louisiana
7:27
Speaker 1: by a non unanimous jury.
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Speaker 2: Well, it's a horror, you know, to think that they're
7:33
Speaker 2: members of the jury who think you're innocent, sometimes as
7:36
Speaker 2: many as too voting not guilty. Yet you're found guilty
7:41
Speaker 2: and sent to prison for mandatory life sentence or practical
7:47
Speaker 2: life sentence, meaning that just because you're not sentenced to life,
7:50
Speaker 2: if you sentenced to three hundred years, no one's going
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Speaker 2: to live to serve that. So, you know, it's disheartening
8:00
Speaker 2: at the very least, you know, to think that you're
8:03
Speaker 2: facing a system that the chords are stacked against you.
8:07
Speaker 2: The DA is bringing marginal cases because they know they
8:11
Speaker 2: don't need a unanimous verdict.
8:13
Speaker 1: Right, And that's a very important point that you brought up, right,
8:16
Speaker 1: So das are much more inclined to bring case that
8:19
Speaker 1: they otherwise might drop because they know that they only
8:21
Speaker 1: have to convince, you know, basically ten out of twelve.
8:25
Speaker 1: I don't handing me do the math. You know, a
8:28
Speaker 1: majority of the jury, you know, to convict. I mean
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Speaker 1: It's important also, Doug, to talk about the fact that,
8:39
Speaker 1: you know, for people who are listening, going, well, this
8:43
Speaker 1: can never happen to me. I mean, you know, like
8:46
Speaker 1: it's not really going to affect my life. Right, you
8:50
Speaker 1: would be somebody that would probably have a lot to
8:52
Speaker 1: say about that because you were the farthest thing from
8:55
Speaker 1: a career criminal. I mean, when this happened, your life
8:58
Speaker 1: was basically a bull of cherry's right.
9:00
Speaker 2: I don't know about a bowl of cherries, but maybe
9:02
Speaker 2: a bowl of peaches. Yeah, you're right, Jason. I don't
9:08
Speaker 2: think there's necessarily anything special about me. But at the
9:12
Speaker 2: same time, I don't think I'm the typical person who
9:14
Speaker 2: gets sentenced to life in prison in the state of
9:17
Speaker 2: Louisiana or anywhere. I'd never been in trouble with the law,
9:22
Speaker 2: I guess prior to me being arrested, I had one
9:25
Speaker 2: traffic ticket twenty years earlier, and that's the extent of
9:29
Speaker 2: my exposure to the law. I came from an upper
9:34
Speaker 2: middle class family. No one in my family had ever
9:37
Speaker 2: been in trouble with the law. I was happily married
9:40
Speaker 2: with two children, and we will living the American dream
9:44
Speaker 2: as far as I'm concerned.
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Speaker 1: Until it turned into the literal.
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Speaker 2: Worst turned into the American nightmare.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, So, Chris, I want to come back to you,
9:55
Speaker 1: what is the origin of this very bizarre It was
10:00
Speaker 1: really Unamerican protocol that is sort of ulique, unique to
10:05
Speaker 1: Louisiana and Oregon and hopefully going to be going away
10:08
Speaker 1: by the time the most people even hearing this podcast.
10:12
Speaker 5: So, the drafters of the state Constitution in Louisiana adopted
10:18
Speaker 5: in eighteen ninety eight to quote, to perpetuate the supremacy
10:24
Speaker 5: of the Anglo Saxon race in Louisiana.
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Speaker 1: So in eighteen ninety eight they drafted an amendment to
10:30
Speaker 1: the constitution. And it's hard to imagine that they were
10:34
Speaker 1: thinking anything other than, well, if we get some people
10:39
Speaker 1: who are of a color that's probably not the word
10:42
Speaker 1: they were using on a jury. We want to make
10:45
Speaker 1: sure that they don't get to screw up our you know,
10:50
Speaker 1: our our ability to lock people up whatever we want
10:54
Speaker 1: to more or less. And since the overwhelming majority of
10:59
Speaker 1: the people being locked up back then and now were
11:02
Speaker 1: people of color, it's you know, it's really hard to
11:07
Speaker 1: imagine that they had anything other than the worst intentions
11:14
Speaker 1: when they set this up. And when I say the worst,
11:16
Speaker 1: I mean purely racist intentions. Is that fair?
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Speaker 5: That's fair, very fair. And the intent was clear. If
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Speaker 5: the federal constitution required that African Americans be allowed to
11:28
Speaker 5: serve on juries, the state constitution would make sure that
11:31
Speaker 5: minority votes could be discounted.
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Speaker 1: Now, let me ask you this. You have many years
11:48
Speaker 1: of experience working in really in the trenches of the
11:53
Speaker 1: criminal justice system in New Orleans, right.
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Speaker 5: Not too many, but yes, I was a client advocate
12:00
Speaker 5: at the Public Defender's Office.
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Speaker 1: So you've seen a lot, and we know sixty minutes
12:05
Speaker 1: said that amazing disturbing peace on the Public Defender's office
12:11
Speaker 1: in Louisiana a couple of years ago, where the head
12:15
Speaker 1: of the association whatever it's called, the Public Defenders in
12:18
Speaker 1: Louisiana or was it New Ds It was New Orleans, right,
12:22
Speaker 1: So the head of the Public Defenders actually took a
12:25
Speaker 1: stand and said he was going to refuse to allow
12:29
Speaker 1: his attorneys, his public defenders, to handle any felony cases,
12:34
Speaker 1: violent felony cases, because, as he said, we've got fifty
12:37
Speaker 1: two public defenders who are processing twenty thousand cases a year.
12:43
Speaker 1: So the math is simple, right, they were doing about
12:45
Speaker 1: four hundred cases per person. And when you get deeper
12:51
Speaker 1: into the weeds on the numbers, and you know the
12:53
Speaker 1: courts aren't open on the weekends, that means they were
12:55
Speaker 1: doing about a case and a half a day average, right.
13:00
Speaker 5: So yeah, and just to be clear on that, what
13:04
Speaker 5: happened at the public Defender's office at that point there
13:08
Speaker 5: was because of staff turnover and the way things were
13:12
Speaker 5: shaking out, the public defender in New Orleans began refusing
13:17
Speaker 5: cases on all like major crimes, like life without parole,
13:24
Speaker 5: cases that the public defenders take would take at the time,
13:30
Speaker 5: public defenders would not take in that office. We're not
13:33
Speaker 5: taking death penalty cases. That's what was going on when
13:37
Speaker 5: the sixty minutes piece came out.
13:39
Speaker 1: Right, And there's a simple reason for that, which is
13:41
Speaker 1: that and the gentleman I forgot his name, but he
13:45
Speaker 1: spoke very eloquently, and he talked about how he wasn't
13:46
Speaker 1: going to continue to just process people into prison because
13:51
Speaker 1: you know, when you break it down, if you're handling
13:54
Speaker 1: that many cases plus trying to have any kind of
13:58
Speaker 1: a life which as a public defender and making you know,
14:00
Speaker 1: barely above minimum wage and with debts from college or
14:04
Speaker 1: law school and everything else. I mean, there's an amazing movie,
14:06
Speaker 1: Gideon's Promise, that really takes you inside, you know, the
14:10
Speaker 1: struggles that these people, many of whom are really doing,
14:15
Speaker 1: you know, doing the Lord's work, so to speak. It's
14:19
Speaker 1: it's impossible for them to mount any sort of an
14:22
Speaker 1: effective defense without having any time to prepare. Many of
14:26
Speaker 1: them meet their clients on the day of the trial
14:29
Speaker 1: for the first time, and then you're up there. I mean,
14:32
Speaker 1: I can't imagine that, you know what's going through somebody's
14:34
Speaker 1: mind when they're like, wait, you're my attorney, And basically
14:36
Speaker 1: a lot of them just come up and say, hey,
14:38
Speaker 1: my advice is pleaded guilty because I can't you know,
14:41
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know what to do. And that's
14:42
Speaker 1: why we have this this guilty plea problem in America
14:45
Speaker 1: where ninety six percent of felony convictions are a result
14:49
Speaker 1: of guilty Please, it's probably even higher down there. If
14:51
Speaker 1: I had to guess, Doug, what's your take on this
14:54
Speaker 1: whole situation, and what do you I mean, what can
14:57
Speaker 1: be done? I mean, obviously people have to get out
14:59
Speaker 1: and vote vote right, because his referendum's on the ballot
15:01
Speaker 1: and that's what we're here to talk about now, to
15:03
Speaker 1: be about to get out and vote and get rid
15:05
Speaker 1: of this thing before it gets rid of you.
15:07
Speaker 2: You're right, Jason, the education of the voters in Louisiana
15:13
Speaker 2: is probably the most important thing. You know, I myself
15:18
Speaker 2: haven't gone through everything that I have. It only dawned
15:22
Speaker 2: on me a couple of years ago that a person
15:26
Speaker 2: could be convicted in Louisiana by less than a unanimous verdict,
15:32
Speaker 2: and that we were the only place in the United
15:35
Speaker 2: States where I would have received a life sentence based
15:38
Speaker 2: on an eleven to one vote. So if I didn't
15:42
Speaker 2: realize this, I would say that the vast majority of
15:47
Speaker 2: voters in Louisiana have no idea what the law is, right.
15:51
Speaker 1: I mean, you are a very educated guy, and you
15:55
Speaker 1: know you would have had every reason if anyone would
15:58
Speaker 1: know about it, you would have been person. But it's
16:00
Speaker 1: sort of obscure aspect of the criminal justice or criminal
16:06
Speaker 1: injustice system down there. And we know that up until
16:08
Speaker 1: very recently, Louisiana incarcerated more Americans per capita than any
16:14
Speaker 1: state in the country. Now Oklahoma has taken that dubious distinction,
16:19
Speaker 1: and of course New Orleans incarcerates more Louisiana's per capita
16:25
Speaker 1: than anywhere else in Louisiana. So you were actually right
16:29
Speaker 1: in the epicenter of the problem, and you were processed
16:34
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, really processed through because it was good
16:38
Speaker 1: for certain people's careers to get a conviction. In your case.
16:41
Speaker 1: I mean, your case was for people who aren't familiar
16:46
Speaker 1: with the Doug Delosa case. I mean, your case was
16:48
Speaker 1: a high profile case and they needed to get a
16:51
Speaker 1: conviction and they couldn't figure it out, and you made
16:53
Speaker 1: a convenience scapegoat. Is that about right?
16:55
Speaker 2: That's pretty much it. The careers of the two assistant
16:59
Speaker 2: districts attorneys and the detectives who arrested me rested on
17:04
Speaker 2: getting a conviction, and I think they did it just
17:09
Speaker 2: to prove that they could frame a person and get
17:12
Speaker 2: away with it.
17:13
Speaker 1: Well, one of the most terrifying aspects of your case
17:16
Speaker 1: is the fact that they actually told you they were
17:18
Speaker 1: framing you. Well, one of the arresting officers told you
17:22
Speaker 1: they were framing you while they were framing you, right,
17:23
Speaker 1: which is something that I think if you put that,
17:26
Speaker 1: you know, I'm friends with John Grisham, I think I
17:28
Speaker 1: don't have to call him and see if he even
17:29
Speaker 1: I don't think he would even dare to put that
17:31
Speaker 1: in a book. If someone would go, that's ridiculous. No
17:33
Speaker 1: one's gonna believe that, right.
17:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, The arresting detective stood face to face with me,
17:39
Speaker 2: and when I asked him why he was arresting me
17:42
Speaker 2: when he knew I didn't do it. I won't go
17:45
Speaker 2: into all the profanity that he used.
17:46
Speaker 1: You can. It's a family show, but you can go ahead.
17:50
Speaker 2: You know. I mean he looked me in the face
17:53
Speaker 2: and almost spitting with his words and said, fuck you,
17:57
Speaker 2: fuck your children, fuck your dead wife. And they said,
18:00
Speaker 2: stupid bitch to die in my parish, my jurisdiction. And
18:06
Speaker 2: I know you didn't do it, but you wanted someone arrested.
18:09
Speaker 2: So guess what. I couldn't find the person that actually
18:12
Speaker 2: did it, but I can frame you.
18:14
Speaker 1: So you're rich, right, So you had the you had
18:19
Speaker 1: the nerve to actually speak out to try to encourage
18:24
Speaker 1: the authorities to find the person that murdered your wife,
18:27
Speaker 1: the mother of your children, and that's really what your
18:29
Speaker 1: crime was. And then that was that was enough to say, Okay, Well,
18:33
Speaker 1: I mean that wasn't the only reason right. The other
18:35
Speaker 1: thing was a few months had gone by they didn't
18:38
Speaker 1: have an arrest. We know that in these cases when
18:42
Speaker 1: there's a media spotlight, a high profile case, nice neighborhood,
18:47
Speaker 1: brutal crime, people are scared. There's a lot of pressure.
18:52
Speaker 1: There's that much more of a chance that an innocent
18:57
Speaker 1: person's going to get not just wrongfully convicted, but framed
19:02
Speaker 1: as you were because of all those factors. And this
19:06
Speaker 1: was this, I mean this when it hit all those buttons.
19:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I mean I was told by quite a
19:12
Speaker 2: few people, including the attorney that represented me a trial,
19:16
Speaker 2: if I'd have just kept my mouth shut, I'd never
19:19
Speaker 2: been arrested. They would have left the crime go unsolved.
19:22
Speaker 2: But because I'd caused trouble for the local police department,
19:27
Speaker 2: they were going to make trouble for me.
19:30
Speaker 1: Wow, that's I got to just process that for a minute.
19:35
Speaker 1: And I know your story. I mean, I've told your
19:38
Speaker 1: story so many times, and I find sometimes when I'm
19:40
Speaker 1: actually telling your story, I'm listening to myself tell it
19:42
Speaker 1: and going, no, that can't be true. But I know
19:44
Speaker 1: that it is because I know you now for how
19:45
Speaker 1: many years It's like nine years? Yeah, and so and
19:49
Speaker 1: we've been you know, we've told your story in great
19:52
Speaker 1: detail on this show. I believe, you know, one of
19:55
Speaker 1: the most powerful and disturbing episodes that we've ever done,
19:59
Speaker 1: h is the episode we did with you. And yeah,
20:03
Speaker 1: so I hope people will take the time to go
20:05
Speaker 1: back and listen to the Doug Delosa episode because it
20:08
Speaker 1: is really there's a lot to be learned from what
20:11
Speaker 1: you went through and it speaks to the problem, exactly
20:14
Speaker 1: the problem that we are facing now in Louisiana, and
20:18
Speaker 1: that we're hoping that people who are listening will get
20:20
Speaker 1: out and vote, understanding that again, you can be convicted
20:25
Speaker 1: by a jury of your peers even though two of
20:28
Speaker 1: them don't think you're guilty. And that's crazy. And you know,
20:32
Speaker 1: imagine if that was the situation across this country. The
20:38
Speaker 1: rate of convictions would be astronomical. And I mean, we
20:43
Speaker 1: already have the worst mass incarceration problem in the history
20:47
Speaker 1: of the civilized world, and it would be absolutely untenable.
20:53
Speaker 1: And the number of innocent people in prison, which is
20:55
Speaker 1: currently estimated to be six percent across this country, right,
20:59
Speaker 1: which six percent, Well, what if you're one of them?
21:02
Speaker 1: That's six percent, by the ways, about one hundred thousand people.
21:04
Speaker 1: That's one hundred thousand Doug Delosos that are out there.
21:07
Speaker 1: I know because I get letters from them, you know,
21:10
Speaker 1: and it's you know, it would be again, the numbers
21:16
Speaker 1: would go up dramatically, maybe even exponentially, if that were
21:21
Speaker 1: allowed to be the case. It's also true, and why
21:24
Speaker 1: I think this is so important that we have to
21:26
Speaker 1: have a unanimous jury very everywhere is because it's a
21:31
Speaker 1: mismatch in the courts right the you know, the fact
21:34
Speaker 1: is we talked about the public defenders and how overmatched
21:37
Speaker 1: they are, but even if you have a private attorney,
21:39
Speaker 1: the government has literally almost unlimited resources and they can
21:46
Speaker 1: they can do an awful lot that the defense can't
21:50
Speaker 1: do by way of convincing a jury. I mean, the
21:53
Speaker 1: juries we know that My friend Josh Dubin conducted a
21:56
Speaker 1: study and found that your average person has an inherent
22:00
Speaker 1: bias that if someone is on the stand, or if
22:04
Speaker 1: someone is in the you know, is shown to them
22:07
Speaker 1: in a lineup or anything else. The numbers are almost
22:10
Speaker 1: eighty percent around eighty percent of how many people think
22:12
Speaker 1: they must be guilty or they wouldn't be there in
22:14
Speaker 1: the first place. So start with that and the burden
22:17
Speaker 1: is really high to try to convince yours that you
22:19
Speaker 1: didn't do it if you ever find yourself in that situation. Chris,
22:22
Speaker 1: what else can you share with us about this situation
22:27
Speaker 1: and the effects that it has on the justice system
22:31
Speaker 1: in Louisiana. And let's not forget, by the way, that
22:34
Speaker 1: every time a Doug de Losa or someone else is
22:36
Speaker 1: convicted that's innocent, and we know that that happens much
22:39
Speaker 1: more frequently when you have a non unanimous jury verdict.
22:43
Speaker 1: The guilty guys allowed us to remain free and prey
22:46
Speaker 1: on other innocent victims.
22:48
Speaker 5: I mean, it makes us less safe right when we're
22:52
Speaker 5: not sure, when there is when there is doubt, and
22:57
Speaker 5: we're essentially prosecutors essentially able to weaponize the non unanimous
23:03
Speaker 5: jury in their power because they can basically use for
23:09
Speaker 5: they can use somebody's past against them, and they can
23:13
Speaker 5: basically use that as a way to get people to
23:16
Speaker 5: plee out because they're staring at, you know, a major
23:21
Speaker 5: charge that carries a certain amount of weight, and you know,
23:24
Speaker 5: depending on the facts of the case, if you're if
23:28
Speaker 5: you're a guy who's looking at twenty years if you
23:31
Speaker 5: lose this case, right, and the prosecutors can can use
23:36
Speaker 5: the fact that they don't need, you know, a unanimous
23:38
Speaker 5: sturity to put you in jail.
23:52
Speaker 1: That's unpacked that for a second. So basically what you're
23:54
Speaker 1: looking at is, particularly in the minority community, where you know,
23:58
Speaker 1: we know that a lot of people have rightly or wrongly,
24:01
Speaker 1: and in many cases wrongly, they have a prior arrest
24:05
Speaker 1: and that means that they can stack the charges and
24:09
Speaker 1: they can you know, hang that over your head the
24:13
Speaker 1: idea that you're going to end up with an enhanced sentence.
24:16
Speaker 1: Enhanced is a weird word, but because that actually sounds
24:19
Speaker 1: like a positive word. But so that you can have
24:21
Speaker 1: a much longer sentence based on the fact that you
24:24
Speaker 1: have priors and now you go into the career, you know,
24:27
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call that category. So then and
24:31
Speaker 1: then you add to that on top of that hammer
24:35
Speaker 1: that they're already holding over your head. Now they can say, well,
24:37
Speaker 1: we know they don't even have to say it out loud,
24:40
Speaker 1: but they know that their chances of getting conviction are
24:43
Speaker 1: greater than any other place in the country because of
24:46
Speaker 1: the fact that they don't need to get a full
24:48
Speaker 1: jury to convict you. So now you as a defendant
24:53
Speaker 1: if you are made aware of this and you're sitting
24:55
Speaker 1: there going wait a minute, So not only am I
24:58
Speaker 1: looking at potentially spending twenty or basically all the best
25:01
Speaker 1: years of my life in prison, but I know that
25:04
Speaker 1: the odds are not only stacked against me because I'm
25:06
Speaker 1: dealing with a public defender who's overworked and underpaid, and
25:10
Speaker 1: NOBO not proper investigators that could help me, and a
25:14
Speaker 1: system that's really just sort of you know, collapsing down
25:18
Speaker 1: on me, and my chances of proving my innocence in
25:24
Speaker 1: the case of unanimous jury. You know, situation would be
25:27
Speaker 1: tough enough, but now, yeah, I mean anybody would go, well,
25:31
Speaker 1: hell with it. I don't care if I did the
25:32
Speaker 1: crime or not. I'm going to take the five to
25:34
Speaker 1: six to seven years whatever I can get so I
25:35
Speaker 1: can at least go home and see my kids, you know,
25:39
Speaker 1: graduate from high school or god knows what.
25:41
Speaker 5: Right, if you're looking at five years and you might
25:45
Speaker 5: be a year into in your rest and you're just
25:48
Speaker 5: waiting for trial, you're looking at getting out in a
25:52
Speaker 5: handful of years, you know, and you may not even
25:54
Speaker 5: have to do that full five depending on the type
25:57
Speaker 5: of plea you take.
25:58
Speaker 1: So it becomes a processing sit situation pretty much. And yeah, Doug,
26:01
Speaker 1: I going to go back to how common I mean,
26:04
Speaker 1: because I'm sure some people are listening say this can't
26:06
Speaker 1: happen all that often, right, I mean, like, you know,
26:09
Speaker 1: is this really something I need to be concerned with?
26:12
Speaker 1: But that's not accurate either, right, I mean, this is
26:14
Speaker 1: how often does this actually come into play?
26:17
Speaker 2: I think it comes into play all too often? Jason.
26:21
Speaker 2: Just in Louisiana in the past ten years, we've had
26:24
Speaker 2: more than thirty exonerations to my knowledge, and there have
26:29
Speaker 2: been over the same period of time, probably well over
26:34
Speaker 2: a thousand exonerations nationwide in the past ten years, and
26:38
Speaker 2: I think we've got a total of almost two thousand
26:41
Speaker 2: exonerations since the inception of the Innison's project or accurate
26:46
Speaker 2: record keeping, So it's not like it's once in a
26:50
Speaker 2: blue moon occurrence.
26:52
Speaker 1: But in Louisiana specifically, how often are people convicted by
26:57
Speaker 1: a non unanimous jury? Is that a frequent.
27:00
Speaker 2: Currents From the statistics that I've seen, roughly forty percent
27:05
Speaker 2: of all jury verdicts or non unanimous verdicts, So four
27:09
Speaker 2: out of ten people who go to trial, maybe even
27:12
Speaker 2: a little bit more than four out of ten or
27:15
Speaker 2: convicted by less than a unanimous verdict.
27:18
Speaker 1: That's a crazy number. I mean it's and I know
27:22
Speaker 1: from God from working in this field for twenty five years,
27:26
Speaker 1: there have been way too many cases that I've seen,
27:30
Speaker 1: even death penalty cases where it ended up in at
27:32
Speaker 1: ten to two or eleven to one, and of course
27:34
Speaker 1: that ended up in a retrial and ultimately an acquittal
27:38
Speaker 1: in the cases where somebody was adequately represented by council.
27:41
Speaker 1: And some of these cases would when you read them,
27:45
Speaker 1: and I'm reading this incredible book, Quest for Justice Defending
27:49
Speaker 1: the Damn by Richard Jaffey, it will blow your mind.
27:52
Speaker 1: But in it you see cases that are I think
27:57
Speaker 1: even you Doug with your experience, it would turn the
28:01
Speaker 1: rest of your hair gray because some of these cases
28:04
Speaker 1: you just sit there and go, you can't understand how
28:07
Speaker 1: anyone could vote to convict, or how they could have
28:09
Speaker 1: even been taking a trial in the first place, and
28:12
Speaker 1: yet they end up in these ten to two or
28:14
Speaker 1: eleven to one situations. But at least you have those holdouts,
28:18
Speaker 1: and let's you know, and let's talk to for a
28:21
Speaker 1: second about the importance of serving on a jury because
28:25
Speaker 1: I talk about this a lot for your average person.
28:29
Speaker 1: It's sort of one of those things in life that
28:31
Speaker 1: you dread, right. You get that envelope in the mail
28:34
Speaker 1: and you know what it is before you open it up,
28:37
Speaker 1: and it's it's from the court, and it says show
28:40
Speaker 1: up at such and such time nine in the morning.
28:42
Speaker 1: And then your thoughts go to, oh my god, I'm
28:45
Speaker 1: so busy right now. I got work, I got things
28:48
Speaker 1: with my family, I got obligations, I got to How
28:52
Speaker 1: important is it for people that are listening to show
28:56
Speaker 1: up and when they're and Doug from your experience, terrible experience,
29:02
Speaker 1: what should people be aware of when they do go
29:05
Speaker 1: to serve on a jury and they end up in
29:07
Speaker 1: a criminal trial and they hold somebody's life in their hands.
29:11
Speaker 2: I think that the average juror are all jurors, when
29:16
Speaker 2: they show up for jury duty and they're selected to
29:18
Speaker 2: sit on that jury, they need to realize that their
29:22
Speaker 2: vote counts and that they shouldn't compromise their beliefs just
29:28
Speaker 2: to go home early or just because they're being pressured
29:33
Speaker 2: by other members of the jury. That there's a reason
29:37
Speaker 2: why they're on that jury, and it's not to just
29:40
Speaker 2: acquiesce to someone who's a bully trying to tell you,
29:44
Speaker 2: or vote guilty so we can go home, or vote innocent.
29:48
Speaker 2: Even you know, it's up to each individual on that
29:52
Speaker 2: jury to vote clearly what their conscience tells them to vote,
29:58
Speaker 2: because the end result is you stand a chance to
30:04
Speaker 2: either ruin a person's life, ruin the life of their
30:08
Speaker 2: family and loved ones by a vote other than what
30:13
Speaker 2: you sincerely believe, or you have the opportunity if you
30:18
Speaker 2: bring back a not guilty verdict, you have the opportunity
30:22
Speaker 2: to give that person a chance to go on with
30:25
Speaker 2: their life and be a productive member of society. But
30:29
Speaker 2: they can't do that if they don't vote sincerely right.
30:35
Speaker 1: So you have to be made aware. And anyone who
30:37
Speaker 1: listens to the show knows that there are you know
30:40
Speaker 1: there listen, there's a lot of very decent and honorable
30:43
Speaker 1: people in law enforcement. It's by no means an easy job.
30:47
Speaker 1: And I'm you know, I believe in a system of laws,
30:50
Speaker 1: and I think we need to have you know, I
30:53
Speaker 1: know when I call nine one one, I want to
30:54
Speaker 1: know that somebody's going to come if I'm in trouble
30:56
Speaker 1: right there that it's funny Back in the seventies, anyone
30:59
Speaker 1: who's all I remember there was a a T shirt
31:02
Speaker 1: or a sticker that said, don't like don't like cops.
31:05
Speaker 1: Next time you're in trouble, try calling a hippie, right,
31:07
Speaker 1: And so I'm not one of those people that wants
31:10
Speaker 1: to call it hippie. But at the same time, it's
31:13
Speaker 1: important for everyone to stay woke and realize that in
31:15
Speaker 1: any profession you have bad apples, and it's certainly true
31:19
Speaker 1: in law enforcement, where there are reverse incentives in many
31:23
Speaker 1: cases like they were in your case, to get things solved.
31:27
Speaker 1: And sometimes, you know, even sometimes even for you know,
31:32
Speaker 1: a decent, honest person, they can get tunnel vision and
31:35
Speaker 1: they can go ahead down a road and then start
31:38
Speaker 1: to ignore the signs that someone's really innocent because it's
31:41
Speaker 1: kind of gained momentum on its own. And we've seen
31:45
Speaker 1: all different kinds of causes of wrongful conviction. So yes,
31:48
Speaker 1: if you get called to be on a jury, go
31:53
Speaker 1: your life is going to be okay. You know, you'll
31:56
Speaker 1: you're you'. It seems like a big inconvenience at the time,
31:59
Speaker 1: but it's not that bad. Go serve, realize that you're there, uh,
32:05
Speaker 1: protecting or you know, or you're there. You're there as
32:10
Speaker 1: a as a citizen of a society that needs you,
32:12
Speaker 1: and you're there passing judgment on your fellow citizen, so
32:18
Speaker 1: and protecting your community, as you said, because again, when
32:21
Speaker 1: when you were convicted, Doug, when anyone in your situation
32:24
Speaker 1: is convicted wrongly, the actual killer or violent criminal, whoever
32:28
Speaker 1: they might be, remains free and goes and praise on
32:30
Speaker 1: other innocent people, Chris, before we before we wrap up,
32:35
Speaker 1: it's it's going to be by the time this airs
32:37
Speaker 1: and people are listening, it's going to be almost time
32:40
Speaker 1: to get out there and and vote or not in Louisiana. So,
32:44
Speaker 1: with your experience of having worked in various different aspects
32:49
Speaker 1: of uh, you know, the criminal justice system in and
32:53
Speaker 1: around New Orleans, how important is it for people to
32:57
Speaker 1: vote on this referendum? And what do they need to
32:59
Speaker 1: know going to ballot box? Is there a particular is
33:02
Speaker 1: there a number to this? Yeah? Okay, let's give people
33:05
Speaker 1: all the information that they need so they can make
33:06
Speaker 1: the best decision that they can. Yeah.
33:09
Speaker 5: So it is constitutional amendment to on the ballot box.
33:14
Speaker 5: The language is written very well, so it's very easy
33:18
Speaker 5: to understand The actual amendment says, do you support an
33:22
Speaker 5: amendment to require a unanimous jury verdict in all non
33:26
Speaker 5: capital felony cases for offenses that are committed on or
33:30
Speaker 5: after January first, twenty nineteen. So that is the exact
33:36
Speaker 5: language of it.
33:37
Speaker 1: You just vote yes.
33:39
Speaker 5: So early voting starts on October twenty third, and it
33:43
Speaker 5: lasts a week, and then the actual vote will be
33:47
Speaker 5: on November sixth.
33:48
Speaker 1: So early voting starts October twenty third, the vote itself
33:51
Speaker 1: is on November sixth. I think there's there's you know,
33:55
Speaker 1: if you if you're having trouble figure out how to
33:57
Speaker 1: get to the polls. I think Uber and lyft actually
34:00
Speaker 1: offering free rides to the polls.
34:02
Speaker 5: Yes, both of them are.
34:03
Speaker 1: If you don't have the Uber or the lift app,
34:05
Speaker 1: get it on your smartphone, they'll give you a free
34:08
Speaker 1: ride to the polls. A constitutional amendment to vote yes,
34:14
Speaker 1: because the ass you save could be your own, or
34:16
Speaker 1: it could be someone you love. I mean, it's you know,
34:19
Speaker 1: it's really as straightforward as that. You could find yourself
34:23
Speaker 1: in a situation where you're facing a jury of your
34:28
Speaker 1: peers and you're going to want to know, even if
34:31
Speaker 1: it's just for purely your own interest that a unanimous
34:35
Speaker 1: jury is what's going to be required to convict you.
34:40
Speaker 1: And again, I mean, we're sitting here now with Doug Delosa,
34:43
Speaker 1: who was sent to life in prison by a non
34:45
Speaker 1: unanimous jury for a crime that he has proven that
34:50
Speaker 1: he didn't commit. I mean, they should have known all
34:52
Speaker 1: along they didn't commit it, because it was obvious. But
34:54
Speaker 1: now he's here, after serving fourteen years in maximum security
34:58
Speaker 1: prison to talk about this. So I mean, Doug, I
35:01
Speaker 1: want to turn it back to you just for any
35:03
Speaker 1: other thoughts that you have, because there's really almost no
35:06
Speaker 1: one more qualified to speak on this subject than you.
35:09
Speaker 1: So I appreciate you showing up here, coming all the
35:12
Speaker 1: way up to New York to record this with us,
35:15
Speaker 1: and you know, and and help to educate and motivate
35:20
Speaker 1: your fellow Louisiana's i's the importance the critical nature of
35:25
Speaker 1: this vote, which I'm you know, I'm optimistic and really
35:30
Speaker 1: hopeful that it's going to pa.
35:32
Speaker 2: I think the one final thing I'd like to note,
35:35
Speaker 2: as Chris mentioned earlier one hundred and twenty years ago
35:38
Speaker 2: in eighteen ninety eight, racism played a large role in
35:44
Speaker 2: the Constitution being written. The way it was so that
35:48
Speaker 2: there wasn't a need for a unanimous verdict to convict someone.
35:54
Speaker 2: But that racism in one hundred and twenty years hasn't
35:57
Speaker 2: disappeared in Louisiana one bit even today. Well, at my
36:03
Speaker 2: jury in nineteen eighty seven, the state used every strike
36:11
Speaker 2: that they had to strike blacks from my jury, even
36:14
Speaker 2: though on Caucasian. And the reason they did that. I
36:18
Speaker 2: could overhear the two assistant district attorneys talking at the
36:22
Speaker 2: bench next to us, and they said, the last thing
36:25
Speaker 2: we want is any fn blacks. Of course they use
36:28
Speaker 2: the N word, not blacks on that jury, because blacks
36:34
Speaker 2: will understand that he's telling the truth, where white people
36:38
Speaker 2: can be convinced that's what happened to Doug Delosa. Doesn't happen,
36:44
Speaker 2: and even to this day, I think statistics will prove that,
36:49
Speaker 2: especially in Jefferson Parish, where majority of the jury pool
36:58
Speaker 2: is white or something other than black, they still use
37:04
Speaker 2: way too many strikes against black jewors.
37:08
Speaker 1: And that's unconstitutional. The Supreme Court decided many years ago
37:11
Speaker 1: that you cannot exclude people based on their race, but
37:15
Speaker 1: it still happens, and it's another reason why it's non
37:17
Speaker 1: unanimous jury a practice is so dangerous and so nefarious.
37:26
Speaker 5: It's part of the reason why, you know, gentrification is
37:32
Speaker 5: becoming such an issue and it's something that nobody thinks about,
37:37
Speaker 5: especially like in the New Orleans area. Like part of
37:40
Speaker 5: this is now you have some many of these residents
37:42
Speaker 5: who don't necessarily understand the culture and they may not understand,
37:46
Speaker 5: you know, everything about the city. And these are individuals
37:50
Speaker 5: who are being selected to go on jurys and they
37:55
Speaker 5: don't really get everything right. They don't get the system,
37:59
Speaker 5: they don't get what's going on and how that affects
38:05
Speaker 5: can affect somebody's life. You know, they just want to
38:08
Speaker 5: be on a jury, or they don't want to be
38:09
Speaker 5: on a jury. And so it's something that it's just
38:15
Speaker 5: a byproduct of this of gentrification in New Orleans where
38:20
Speaker 5: we have just a different type of jur and it's
38:24
Speaker 5: not always the best thing for folks who are from
38:30
Speaker 5: the sit from the area. And yeah, it's it's fascinating.
38:35
Speaker 1: So, Chris, besides the obvious, which is for people to
38:40
Speaker 1: get up, get out vote early, starting on October twenty
38:43
Speaker 1: third or on November sixth, of course, go to the polls,
38:49
Speaker 1: do whatever you need to do to get there. Remember
38:51
Speaker 1: that Uber and Lyft are offering free ride, So if
38:53
Speaker 1: you don't have those apps, get the apps so you
38:54
Speaker 1: can get there and you can take advantage of that
38:56
Speaker 1: free it's totally free. If you're going to vote, people donate.
39:00
Speaker 1: If they're hearing this and they're saying, this is outrageous,
39:02
Speaker 1: I didn't know about this. I want to do something.
39:04
Speaker 1: Can people donate money to help with this effort to
39:06
Speaker 1: get the vote out and to fix this terrible problem.
39:09
Speaker 5: Absolutely, people can go to www Dot unanimous jury dot org.
39:15
Speaker 1: That's www Dot unanimous jury dot org.
39:19
Speaker 5: There is a donate button on the page. It goes
39:23
Speaker 5: to our Act Blue, which we use to for our fundraising.
39:28
Speaker 1: Right, so there's a donate button on the page and
39:30
Speaker 1: it goes right to Act Blue and it's used specifically
39:33
Speaker 1: for fundraising for this very very critical issue. And yeah,
39:38
Speaker 1: so go there, vote, donate, get involved. Let's fix this
39:43
Speaker 1: problem and then we can move on to the next one,
39:44
Speaker 1: because there are plenty of other ones for us to
39:46
Speaker 1: deal with as we do on wrongful conviction. And Doug,
39:50
Speaker 1: you know, since you've been on the show before and
39:51
Speaker 1: you've heard it and you're very very familiar with our work.
39:55
Speaker 1: I do the thing this hardest for me to do,
39:56
Speaker 1: which is that I stopped talking and turn the mic
40:00
Speaker 1: phone over to you for any final thoughts.
40:04
Speaker 5: Yes on November six, we need everyone in Louisiana to
40:08
Speaker 5: go vote yes on Constitutional Amendment too. Let's vote yes
40:12
Speaker 5: on two And if you want any more information, if
40:15
Speaker 5: anyone wants to volunteer, if anyone wants to donate, you
40:19
Speaker 5: go to www dot unanimus Jury dot org.
40:23
Speaker 1: Once again, Chris Pouso, Doug Delosa, thank you for being
40:28
Speaker 1: with us today on this very special episode of Wrongful Conviction.
40:32
Speaker 5: Thank you for having us Jathon.
40:46
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you
40:49
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud
40:52
Speaker 1: donor to the NSIS project and I really hope you'll
40:55
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
40:59
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocentsproject dot org
41:03
Speaker 1: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like
41:06
Speaker 1: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.
41:09
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
41:11
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram.
41:15
Speaker 1: At Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction. Podcast
41:19
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava
41:22
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one