Latest / Cutting Through with Natasha Plowman / Cutting Through with Athena Peppes

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Cutting Through with Athena Peppes · Cutting Through with Natasha Plowman

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In Season 3 of Cutting Through, we're asking the question, how
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do you cut through with humanity in the age of AI?
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Because the first time in history machines are imitating
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us. They're writing like us,
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speaking like us, creating like us.
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And the question suddenly, everywhere is, what does it mean
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to be human when the machines can do the same things we do?
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In this series, we're exploring that question from different
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angles, Not with the usual voices, and not with the same
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predictable panel of experts, but with people who see the
0:37
world differently. Season 3 is supported by
0:41
antiquotage.com, a platform built to challenge the sameness
0:45
of expertise by helping media, podcasts and events discover new
0:49
voices and new perspectives. Because if we're going to talk
0:52
about the future, we'd probably need a broader set of people
0:55
shaping the conversation. This is cutting through.
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Welcome to cutting through with Natasha Ploughman today.
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I have Athena Peppers now Athena is leads the research for a
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small start up called Boss Up AI.
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Boss Up AI really focuses on AI readiness for enterprises.
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But a bit I love about it is they're also focusing on young
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people and how to get young people ready for the future of
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work. A group that we know has been
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neglected. We've seen the stats about them.
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There's so much we know to do with young people, but this is
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all part and parcel of the discussion around what role does
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AI play with humans and how do we cut through with humanity in
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the age of AI. So welcome to cutting through,
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Athena. So First off, tell us a bit more
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about yourself. What makes you you?
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Thank you, Natasha, and thank you for having me.
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As you said, this is something that I'm very passionate about
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in terms of helping, you know, young people in particular get
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AI ready and kind of have an empowering conversation around,
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you know, helping them embrace the technology rather than be
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left out of its transformative potential.
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The reason why that drives me is because I've got a six year old
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son. And so I think a lot of the
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world that we live in nowadays is very short term focused.
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We need to have a bit of a longer term focus in the way
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that we do things and the decisions that we make as
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individuals, leadership makes in organisations so that we can
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shape that future for them. And I guess that drives a lot of
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my other work. I actually started my career as
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an economist, then moved to Accenture where my work kind of
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started bringing in foresight as well and helping companies think
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about how emerging trends are really going to transform their
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business. And over the last couple of
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years I've got, I've got a portfolio of work.
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I work with Boss Up AI, as you mentioned, which is a start up
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kind of pioneering measures of AI readiness.
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And I'm also director of futures at a company called Beacon
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thought leadership that I Co founded with some ex Accenture
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colleagues as well. And then also, yes, speaking and
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raising awareness so that people can have that more empowering
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conversation around AI. Because I feel a lot of a lot of
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it is quite divided. Like are you a pessimist, an
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optimist? And that's kind of unhelpful to
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everyone. And it is that whole binary that
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we seem to be in on everything at the moment.
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It is. It's good, bad, right?
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Wrong. There's no messy middle, which
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is the reality of where so many people are.
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And that just breeds confusion. And it breeds, you know,
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distrust because they don't know who to believe.
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And this is this whole element of trust is becoming such an
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important consideration that we're not talking about.
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We just know we don't trust things and we don't trust
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people. So I find that kind of how to
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navigate that nuance is, is something that, you know, it's
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just seems to be lost at the moment.
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I mean, be great. Do you have a silver bullet?
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How do we actually get people to think more beyond the binaries
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that we have at the moment? I think I think it's, you're
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right. We've kind of seem to be losing
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that ability to have more nuanced conversations and kind
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of even raising, you know, kind of concerns about the
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technology. You're immediately kind of
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lumped into the Ladai camp. And I've seen some organisations
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say, you know, if you, if you're an AI sceptic, we don't want you
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here. And that seems weird to me
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because in a way the sceptics are the ones you need to
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convince and bring along and they're raising kind of valid
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concerns that you need to be thinking about.
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I think the the way around it is to give people 1/3 option,
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right? To give them something else to,
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to focus on. So that's why for me, it's not
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are you an optimist? Are you a pessimist?
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Is are you AI ready? And what I mean by that is not
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necessarily, you know, do you spend a lot of time prompting
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Claude or do you use Cha Chi Petit to write all your posts,
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which is a nightmare. But more, do you understand what
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value do you bring as a human in the workplace that nobody can
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take away from you? You know, the the empathy that
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you can bring towards your peers, for example, or the
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people that you lead? AI can't replace that.
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And in a sense, it kind of makes it even more important to have
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that empathy critical thinking. We know that with AI usage and
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kind of increasing AI usage, that ability to reflect and
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question things gets lost. So how can you make sure you
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don't kind of fall into the trap of cognitive atrophy and
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strengthen your critical thinking?
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So for me, giving people this focus on are you AI ready?
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What does that look like? What is the job of the machine?
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But what is unique to you? What do you bring to the table?
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That's where the conversation should be.
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I love that and I love that whole approach around really
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understanding what you bring as a human and we and it someone I
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saw someone post the other day on LinkedIn like the word of the
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year already is human and I was kind of like, Oh God, I use that
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a lot as well. Oh God, I'm kind of like, I
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think, but and then I think this is exactly the conversation we
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should be having having. And I find it really frustrating
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in a way that we are having it and we are debating it.
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But I think it will make us stronger and make us more aware,
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both from, you know, just socially and understanding human
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connection and human and the human attributes around
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collaboration and connection and being together and what it means
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to be in real life. But from a work context, being
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really clear about the things that humans add so much more
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value to. And, and I, and, and it's also
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that whole debate around it's everyone's going to AI is going
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to take all these jobs and things.
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You know, there's going to be either dire world or new world
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order. But it does give us an
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opportunity to start questioning and debating where we use our
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time best and how do we measure a society in a different way.
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So the optimist in me thinks we could shape a different future
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that is much more human centric. But then the pessimist in me is
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scared shitless that we're going to have, you know, looking at
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who's in leadership around the world, looking at the
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divisiveness that seems to be the focus that we're not.
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And it feels like we're at a real turning point right now
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that we either can take the reins as, you know, a human
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population or we let the rains be taken away from us.
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And then whatever happens, happens to the kind of the AI
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gods, I suppose. So that was a bit of a, a bit of
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a rant on my part. So we'll get back to the
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conversation at hand and I'm kind.
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And I suppose the next question for you is like, well, what do
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we, you know, how do we actually get people to kind of think of
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these abstract conversations about what is meant to be human
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in, in kind of work or social? So we can, we can breakthrough
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that, that that binary focus we've got at the moment.
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Have you got some examples of where that's really had a
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turning point for people? Yeah.
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So it just to, to kind of tie the, the end from what you said
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before that I, I also find this kind of discussion of like what
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it means to be human quite fascinating.
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Because in a way, what, what the publication or kind of what the
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availability of generative AI tools in all our hands kind of
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has done with the release of Cha Chi PT is created an existential
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crisis for us, right? Because a lot of the things that
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we thought were just the remit of humans, you know, all of a
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sudden can be done very quickly and cheaply.
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They're not necessarily I think better from what we've seen.
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So, you know, I think coming back to that kind of human
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element where I'm seeing quite a lot of in the publishing world,
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for example, I don't know if you've, if you've seen in the
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news, there was a London book fair last week.
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And they've introduced this idea of a human authored kind of mark
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on books just to show to people that a human wrote this.
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Because we're increasingly valuing the fact that people
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spend time, you know, putting that book together.
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It's it comes from lived experience, from talking to
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other people, from you observing those patterns.
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And we attribute greater value to that.
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And I thought that was quite interesting because it was a
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sign of agency and to your point, people taking matters
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into their own hands. So it's all part of the same
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conversation. I think that once we realise
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that that binary conversation is unhelpful, once we start
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focusing on, well, what does it mean to have a world in which
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humans and machines and you know, or human and artificial
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intelligence coexist, then we start getting into the detail of
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right. Well, AI is very good at
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recognising patterns, right, in large amounts of data.
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But whether that pattern matters or not, that contextual
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awareness is for you to to bring to the table.
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Only you can do that because only you know what matters to
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your business, your life, whatever aspects you're using
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the AI tool for. So yeah, I think it's we're
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increasingly seeing some of that.
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I can give you another example that I'm really kind of
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passionate about because it comes from the like the
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economics world. So a lot of them economists,
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when they look at the impact that AI is going to have on the
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workplace, they take a role, they break it down into its
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tasks. And then they, they kind of look
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at the values, look at the, they attribute what proportion of
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that task can be done by a machine, what proportion of the
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task can be done by human. Now, I don't know about you, but
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I I understand the kind of validity of that being used for
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analytical purposes. But is really your work just an
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accumulation of your tasks in a day?
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I would argue not. There's so much more.
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Yeah. And I think that's a really
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important point, particularly because this is fundamentally A
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disruption for knowledge workers.
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And you know, and I was thinking as you're speaking, I think, you
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know, the value we approach to things that are handmade, Like
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we want handmade shoes or handmade clothes or handmade
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products because we feel that much more care and attention has
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been and put into them. And so that's something that we
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can relate to and understand. And now for knowledge work is
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like, well, what is it about knowledge work that really needs
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that human touch? And so much for that for me is
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leadership and collaboration and building bridges and thinking at
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things from a different point of view and thinking it and, and
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bringing disparate and divergent voices into conversations so we
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can try something else. I mean, yes, technology can get
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loads of data, but to your point I love that.
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But only humans can really contextualise it with something
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else, which I think is a really nice way of putting it.
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Yeah, no, I was just going to add something that I've seen.
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So one of the dimensions that we measure in, in the boss up AOI
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algorithm, which is called the agent boss score, is around
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strategic thinking. Because the idea there is that
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you know, that's going to be a very critical skill because for,
13:04
for entry level workers all throughout, you know, your, your
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career, because what you're bringing to the table there is
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the ability to kind of look at the bigger picture, that
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commercial awareness where the business environment is heading,
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being able to understand well, how do you kind of align the
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capabilities of, of AI and humans to deliver in your
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strategic vision and that long term vision.
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You have to decide that. And that's actually something
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that we measure in the algorithm.
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And I've done quite a few talks represent this to, to kind of
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teams. It's one that I think people can
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struggle with quite a lot. Like we get them to the
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algorithm is more sophisticated, gets them to, you know, it's
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based on, on data. But for the purposes of the
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talk, I might get them to think about how do they do this.
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And this is something that, yeah, I think a lot of people
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just find quite difficult, particularly earlier on in their
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careers, because they assume it's something that only you
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bring to the table. And when you've got years and
14:10
years of experience, but to a point before about what is your
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unique competitive advantage in the marketplace, that's where a
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lot of young people have the opportunity to focus on when
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they go for for interviews and graduate schemes and what have
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you. And I think that whole point,
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particularly for young people, is they've been told for so many
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years to do kind of vocational skill sets.
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And, you know, we've seen the humanities and the arts and the,
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the, the degrees or the kind of the approach to thinking which
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allows that critical analysis to almost be downgraded.
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And the arts are an amazing way to bring that kind of unique way
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of viewing the world to the fore.
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I mean, my degree was an arts degree.
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I majored in like social sciences and, and Policy Studies
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a long time ago, granted, But the but one thing I say about my
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degree, though, is it taught me how to think.
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It taught me that one person's view isn't necessarily the only
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view and you need to be able to look at things differently.
15:10
And I suppose this is another conversation around the
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algorithm and kind of the AI tools is that it has baked in
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bias to it. It, you know, it determines A
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viewpoint and we assume it's divergent and we assume it kind
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of has this wide reach that we we won't necessarily have and
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we've never had, I think in realistically, but it also
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doesn't, and I think that's also an intervention around how do we
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ensure that, you know, we are intentionally seeking diverse
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viewpoints either by gender, by socio economic status, by
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ethnicity, by location of where people come from, because the
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technology is still largely, you know, by grow men from the
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States and it's kind of built on that.
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So is that something we we can really intentionally start
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forcing a change in? Yeah, I think you're right.
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I see that, you know, a lot of what the data is trained on it.
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Just what came to my mind was an example from when when I first
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started using ChatGPT, when it first came out.
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You know, there was so many of these things coming out where
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you ask it for an example, like to create an image and then
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inevitably the image of ACO was always, you know, a white middle
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aged man. And in a sense, well, who's to
16:29
blame in in that situation, right?
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Because the model is not willingly, you know, bias.
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It's just that what that's what we've trained it on to to your
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point. So I think there is, you know,
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they're a mirror of our world in in many ways.
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I think that's scary thought in itself, but it means if we know
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that, then we can do something more to change.
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It exactly, which is why, you know, this ability around like
16:57
of being able to critically think and interrogate the
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outputs that come from AI tools, you know, and questioning what
17:07
baked in assumptions are there, just taking that moment to
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reflect. And I think the risk is that AI
17:15
is really speeding up the way that we do things.
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We're expected. We've got these like God like
17:21
tools in our hands. So we should be doing things
17:23
faster. And in reality, what we should
17:26
be doing is slowing down and really interrogating,
17:30
questioning, critically thinking about them.
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I think that's how we we kind of protect against those biases,
17:38
which, you know, without kind of they definitely exist.
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That's something that we're thinking about a boss up as
17:46
well. How can we make sure we're
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constantly, you know, evolving the, the algorithm, testing it
17:53
against different groups? It's a work in progress, right?
17:56
I think the the starting point is recognising that it's not
17:59
perfect and then always working to to improve it.
18:02
Yeah. And I think that's the important
18:04
point because we had this conversation yesterday at an
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event we recently held around the baked in buyers.
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And you know it was, it was a fascinating conversation around
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which of the levers we need to start pulling.
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And you got some kind of people are like, well, it's not
18:17
working, it's never going to work.
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It's based on a history. We need to draw from it our
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money and our agency of where we spend money enables us to force
18:24
change. And then there's the other
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school of thought around. We need to invest more money in
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it, but get the diversity of that money.
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So, you know, for, for women, for example, VC funding is so
18:33
small that goes to women and get women much more actively asking
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these questions and engaging in. Just because women are having
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the conversation doesn't necessarily mean it will change
18:41
things, but hopefully a critical mass will also force a different
18:46
change. And, and I like how you said,
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sometimes you just need to slow down and just, and not be
18:51
getting to this hamster wheel of information overload, which we
18:56
are all in at the moment. We feel like we, we're supposed
18:59
to know everything because it's available and it's just not
19:03
humanly feasible for us to. And again, it's that binary of
19:07
withdraw or go all in. And there is a middle bit, isn't
19:11
there of just assessing an awareness that we need to kind
19:14
of be focusing on more. Is that where we need to be kind
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of really the conversation needs to be going towards?
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Yeah. I think it's, it's kind of the,
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the middle ground is around realising you have agency and
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you have a choice ultimately, and neither of those paths
19:30
involve a choice, right? So, but once you realise that
19:34
you have a choice, I think then you almost see things quite
19:38
differently. Um, so I, I, I see your point as
19:43
well around so much of the narrative that's being fed to us
19:47
is, you know, you're going to be, you're, you're dispensable,
19:52
you're replaceable, you're going to be automated, you're going to
19:54
be out of a job. I mean, the reality is though,
19:57
that, you know, as any student of history or foresight knows.
20:03
The world is littered with such predictions that are wrong.
20:06
We you can't predict, you can anticipate, you can think about
20:09
what the future might look like, and that's very valuable, 100%.
20:15
But a narrative that portrays this as very deterministic, like
20:19
this is what is going to happen. That is something that I don't
20:24
believe in. I think the way to position is
20:27
to say this is the risk, this is the opportunity you choose, you
20:32
know, and kind of shape your your path.
20:35
And I mean, just for a small kind of think about, you know,
20:42
like what's up groups that you're a part of when people are
20:44
like, I use this tool and I use that tool and I use this tool
20:46
and this like transformed my. And you know, sometimes that can
20:50
just cause you to feel very overwhelmed and like you're left
20:53
behind. And Oh my goodness, I should
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also be, you know, doing all of this.
20:59
And then but, but that's because your, your brain is kind of
21:03
speeding up and thinking this once you take a moment to pause
21:05
and say, hold on a second, but what what is the problem?
21:09
That tool would sell for me or why do I need it or what?
21:14
Then, you know, the conversation changes.
21:17
You're in the driver seat. You get to decide.
21:20
I got given, I mentioned to you before the start of our
21:23
conversation, I handed in the manuscript for my book a few
21:27
days ago and I remember, yes, definitely.
21:31
But I remember when I started writing, I was just like
21:33
inundated with advice on use Scriven.
21:37
I used this tool, use that tool and I actually wasted time
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thinking about which tool to use.
21:44
And then I realised, you know what, what works for me is like
21:48
Word and my notebook and my brain.
21:51
And that's what works for me. And I'm OK with that.
21:54
And once I realised that was my choice and that's what I want to
21:57
do, you know, that's all of a sudden very different.
22:01
And everything else is a tool. But I'm the one choosing, I'm
22:04
the one in the driver's seat and you have agency.
22:08
So I think that's quite powerful.
22:10
I think that's hugely powerful because yes, there are those
22:13
WhatsApp groups and they are incredibly overwhelming and
22:16
incredibly dominated by particular small group of men as
22:19
well. But that's decide the point.
22:22
But that, but it is, and I look at it as well, but I think
22:24
around for me and my own work, yes, I use some tools for some
22:27
things, but ultimately the biggest part of my work is
22:30
getting people to talk to each other in a better way and
22:33
communicate with each other in a more authentic, open, honest way
22:37
to build bridges, to build collaborative workplaces and for
22:39
leaders to, to show up to their teams and to the organisation at
22:45
large in a more authentic and, and human way.
22:48
Because that's the word of the year.
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And I think, and, and it is that bit about being intentional
22:54
about the, the, the tools that we use, because it's always
22:57
going to change. But the other point I love that
22:59
you talked about just there was around that these conversations
23:04
about the end of the world are not new.
23:08
And there seems to be something in the human condition to always
23:11
want to predict or to prophesize about the end of the human race
23:16
in some way. And something's going to take it
23:18
over. And we see it in sci fi, but we
23:19
also see it was it absolutely in human conversation.
23:23
And I was talking to someone yesterday about the same
23:25
conversations that happened in the industrial revolution around
23:28
machines. Kind of then all work will
23:31
change. And that was the born of
23:33
knowledge work. And then we've got now knowledge
23:36
work that's completely going to go.
23:38
So what is and I think none of us know what's going to replace
23:42
it, but I think we all feel, but we have to feel optimistic that
23:46
something is. And and I think there are some
23:49
really interesting examples around kind of human connection
23:53
and real life connection that's that's going to grow that needs
23:56
to be monetized in some kind of way.
23:58
Yeah, no, you know, I think that the point around people needing
24:02
human connection even more because we've got these kind of
24:07
tools is so important. Just think about like how many
24:11
events and conferences and you know, all sorts of things are
24:14
springing up or in person training events around AI, even
24:19
though you can just go on YouTube, right and and kind of
24:22
just follow the course and do it yourself.
24:25
But there's something quite powerful when you turn up in a
24:29
room and you work on a problem and you kind of realise that
24:33
you're in the same boat with other people.
24:35
And what's different is that connection, the fact that, you
24:39
know, we're social beings. We want to know that someone
24:42
else is kind of perhaps struggling with the same thing
24:45
or that they've solved it a different way.
24:47
And you know, so I think that is definitely going to grow.
24:52
Someone gave me an example of like the the travel kind of
24:56
industry. You can watch, you know,
24:58
everything. Basically videos of people
25:01
walking around any city in the world on YouTube.
25:04
But that hasn't stopped us from travelling the world to see it
25:07
for ourselves, right? So it's touch.
25:09
Feel It's all of our senses that need to be.
25:12
To. Be kind of and I remember like
25:15
one of a book that I kind of tell people about endlessly is
25:18
like the David Eggers books. You've got the circle, which is
25:21
the first one and then the every and you know, they were written
25:25
15 or so years ago, so before all of this and it's predicting
25:29
so much of what we're in now. But there was there's lots of it
25:32
that I could go on about, but there's one part about not
25:35
travel to your point around. And they used it as a way
25:38
because of the climate and because of what's happening,
25:40
climate change, that people shouldn't travel more.
25:42
We should stop travel. Well, you can immerse yourself
25:45
into these digital worlds. And I just because so much of
25:49
travel is that connection and those moments you can't predict.
25:54
And is there also something around just serendipity that
25:57
we're striving and we're kind of really craving for because it's
26:02
those conversations you aren't expected to have.
26:03
Like I was in the queue at the airport and I never talked to
26:06
people because I'm usually kind of at the airport, suddenly
26:08
started talking to this person, had the most fascinating
26:10
conversation. And I want to see more of that.
26:14
I want to see more get off your phones and just kind of that
26:16
serendipitous moments that we can have that can be a real
26:20
element of hope for the future, do you think?
26:22
Yeah. And I think quite a lot of that
26:26
what I've seen comes from the the younger generation, I've
26:29
been really encouraged to see their response to this, both
26:35
worried and encouraged. And you know, to, to our earlier
26:39
point that, you know, it's a, it's a topic and an area that
26:42
creates a lot of emotions right at the same time.
26:45
So I've, I've done quite a few talks at like graduate fairs at
26:51
different universities and things like that because with
26:55
Boss up, we're really trying to help that kind of graduates and
26:58
entry level workers. So, you know, my son is 6.
27:03
Most of the people that I talk to, I say at the same stage of
27:07
my career. So it's been so illuminating to
27:10
go and talk to these amazing 20 to 22 year olds and the stuff
27:15
they come up with. So I was at the University of
27:18
Arts London and they were showing me like their portfolios
27:21
of work that they've created. And I still remember one of them
27:25
said to me, well, I said, what inspired you to create, to
27:30
create this? And they said, well, you know,
27:33
how the world is flattening our personalities.
27:36
And I was like, what do you mean?
27:39
And they're like, you know, just social media and this kind of
27:41
discussion around AI. We all feel like we're losing
27:44
our personalities in the midst of that.
27:47
And so this is my way, you know, that they'd come up with this
27:50
concept. I'm not sure I can talk about
27:52
it, but and a product that they wanted to pitch because it was
27:57
very deeply kind of ingrained in that particulars particular
28:01
person's personality. And I was like, great.
28:04
So they're, they're channelling that kind of frustration and
28:08
worry and concern into something creative and productive.
28:13
And so I don't know what the what that would look like, but
28:16
that's the bit that kind of made me think, ha, this is, you know,
28:20
if these people are shaping the future, I'm encouraged.
28:23
Yeah. Well.
28:23
This is it. And I think we need to kind of
28:25
really get those stories to bubble up more.
28:27
We need to elevate that part of the conversation because that
28:30
just sounds, you know, and this is where we could say the arts
28:33
and creativity and individualism and, you know, they're all
28:36
fundamental things about what makes us human.
28:39
You know, we do not want humanity to become drones.
28:42
And we've seen that through cycles of history where
28:45
everyone's expected to look the same, act the same, be the same.
28:48
But it's in the diversity of viewpoints and diversity of
28:53
thought and lived experience that's going to give us that
28:56
edge. Athena, I'm going to have to
28:58
kind of slow us down there because there are so many things
29:01
that we've talked about on this. As a last kind of point, like
29:05
just tell us a little bit about your book that's coming up
29:07
because that should be should be released very, very soon.
29:10
Yes, well, the, the, the book is a reminder to me that the world
29:14
is still very much physical, right?
29:16
Because it takes time actually to to print the book and ship it
29:20
around the world. And so it's, it's got different
29:23
timelines than what what we're used to.
29:25
So it's actually out in January and still some time to go.
29:29
But just to give a brief overview of what it's about.
29:34
The title is AIQ, the new leadership Imperative for the
29:37
human plus AI era. And the argument in the book is
29:41
that the problem that we're seeing around AI is, you know,
29:46
as we've discussed, not necessarily are you an
29:48
optimistic pessimist, is that people feel fear, doubt,
29:52
overwhelm when it comes to AI. And those kind of emotions are
29:59
creating a leadership vacuum. So what's happening is people
30:03
are feeling all of those things, but in a way, when leaders are
30:07
organisations are also feeling those things, then it stops them
30:12
from acting and really thinking about how and where AI is using
30:16
their organisation. And then it leads to things like
30:19
where AI first, AI everything and which is not really, you
30:23
know, in my opinion, leading, what leading should be about in
30:27
the human plus AI era. So it puts forward a different
30:30
way of thinking about this, which is AIK and like a new
30:34
leadership capability. And it looks at how based on
30:39
research and interviews I've done with different kind of
30:43
functions and industry leaders, what are the ways in which they
30:47
think differently, their mindsets, what are the abilities
30:51
that really stand out and are going to be both timeless and
30:54
timely? And then what are the practises
30:57
like the, the things that operationalize this in their day
31:01
to day and then their organisation.
31:03
So that's it in a nutshell. We can.
31:06
There's still some time to go, as I say, but.
31:08
Yeah. And I can't wait to have another
31:09
conversation in more depth because you know that this book
31:13
is needed right now because all the conversations that I've been
31:17
having around particularly leadership readiness and getting
31:21
people comfortable in the workplace.
31:22
And like you say, those breaking down those silos and looking at
31:26
the future of work and looking at the future of business in a
31:29
different way is the conversation that needs to be
31:31
had more. It's not about replacing what
31:33
is, but kind of looking to and shaping the future in a more
31:36
holistic and kind of systems LED approach.
31:40
Yeah, absolutely. What a fantastic conversation.
31:43
Can't wait to see the book. Can't wait.
31:44
And also can't wait to see you speak on May 7th as well if this
31:48
goes out before that, which hopefully it will.
31:51
And thank you very much for your time, Athena.
31:54
Thank you. It's been a pleasure, Natasha.
31:56
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