Latest / Women Disrupting Tech / Decoding Human Behavior in the Workplace with Kirsten Heukels | Episode 106

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Decoding Human Behavior in the Workplace with Kirsten Heukels | Episode 106 · Women Disrupting Tech

• 0:00
  In the end, you, you need to, we always say in the beginning to
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  really, you know, get to know each other as human beings.
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  And what do you stand for? What is important to you?
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  What is the purpose of your organization?
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  Can we, you know, can we align on what I call under the water
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  line? You know, what we see above the
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  water line of an iceberg is our behavior.
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  And that's, that's perfectly fine.
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  But our behavior is a result of everything that's that's within
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  us. And if we can share about those
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  things, then we really have deepened conversations, profound
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  conversations of what is leading us, you know, and I think in the
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  end, that's what solves really big problems.
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  Welcome to Women Disrupting TEF. My name is dear Kanukas, and on
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  this podcast, I give the women who work in tech the platform
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  they need to inspire and empower each other.
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  Join me on your journey into the world of entrepreneurship,
• 1:09
  funding biases, and role models to discover the strategies for
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  success in the tech industry. In other words, how women can
• 1:18
  disrupt tech. Are you ready to listen?
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  Hey, welcome back to women disrupting tech and thank you
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  for tuning into episode 106. If you're an investor or
• 1:37
  founder, you probably know that Co founder conflict is one of
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  the leading reasons that startups feel.
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  So why does trust breakdown between people who share the
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  same vision? And what can we do to build
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  stronger relationships from the start?
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  For the answers to these questions, I talked to Kirsten
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  Herkles. Kirsten is the cofounder of One
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  for Two Social Innovation and an expert in complex communication
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  who helps teams build psychological safety, trust, and
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  resilience. Over the course of our
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  conversation, you'll learn why communication is much more
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  complex than it looks, how trust is built in daily behaviour,
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  that is, how you listen, respond, and show up when it
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  matters most, and what having 4 generations in today's workplace
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  means for founders and leaders. Plus, you hear what working with
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  Manchester United told Kirsten about pressure, power and team
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  dynamics. So when you're ready to listen
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  and learn how to decode human behavior in the workplace,
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  please welcome to Wim disrupting tech.
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  Kirsten Hurkos, good morning. Good to have you.
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  A question I always ask at the start is how you got into your
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  current job and current position.
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  So take it away. To start with current position,
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  currently I have, we have a company 3 actually one is
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  focusing on training and coaching, one is focusing on
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  confidential counseling for organizations since 2018.
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  The third one is focusing on crisis and hostage negotiation
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  and kinetic interrogation or interviewing.
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  So actually everything that has to do with a human
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  communication, complex situations is something that we
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  try to prevent from training and coaching.
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  But if it does occur, we can also solve things.
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  That's currently the situation. How I got there is 25 years of
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  starting out actually as a mediator when it was just coming
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  to the Netherlands 25 years ago and broadening the horizons to
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  training, coaching international and organizational culture from
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  Hofstede and in the end also profiling.
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  I educated I got educated on micro expressions, facial micro
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  expressions, body language and uses of voice.
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  And with profiling, I use that three-dimensional to make
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  analysis of individuals and groups to actually explain human
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  behavior but also predict human behavior.
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  So reactive, proactive, that's the short, the short version of
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  how I got here, but. OK, well then I'm curious about
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  long version. What I was wondering about what
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  makes human communication so complex?
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  I think what makes it complex is that we have more than 8 billion
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  people. This means more than 8 billion
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  perceptions. Perception is just as unique as
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  your DNA is. Facials are also that unique.
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  So the simple fact that we share a language or something like
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  that is not enough to understand each other.
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  And I think culture plays a big part in this.
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  So we, we mostly don't know enough about each other's
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  cultures to really understand what the other person is saying
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  or people are saying. And I also think that in current
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  times, the amount of information that reaches us every day is, is
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  so much that we just can't process it all without, you
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  know, just judging and putting it into compartments and not
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  really having the time to really digest or, you know, research
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  those the information that you take that you.
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  Yeah, yeah. To take in, but also to to
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  really digest it. You know, what am I seeing?
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  What am I hearing? What am I?
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  Yeah. And I also think we, we, not
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  every culture teaches their children or their young people
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  to use the words close to their hearts, you know, so we, we kind
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  of are getting into a zone where we use container words like
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  respect and that kind of thing that means everything to
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  everybody. But it doesn't mean anything if
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  you don't specify what you mean by it.
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  So, and I also think now that I'm thinking of it, that taking
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  things personally is also a big problem.
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  I had to learn that really, I really had to learn that myself.
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  But sorry. Is that something that is
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  increasing? Yeah, I think so.
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  But it was always there. It was always there.
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  I think that people really are wired in a way that if I'm, if
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  it's for me, it's against you. And that's not the same thing.
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  If it's for me, it's not against you, it's just for me.
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  But I don't think that this distinguishment is always made
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  at the right time to make the right conversation going.
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  Also why? Why especially?
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  Maybe a really deep dive all of a sudden, but is that also why
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  men perceive the whole diversity debate as a sort of 0 sum game?
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  So we do something in favor of women that comes at cost to men.
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  I think every, well, there were a few people that said really
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  interesting things about that because the Nobel Prize winner
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  Daniel Kamen said that people are allergic to loss and that
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  that is why men mostly see it as an awesome game.
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  But Doctor Naomi Fields, and she's a behavioural analyst, she
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  said diversity is not a cake that you get a smaller piece
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  from. You know, you get a bigger party
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  where more people are at the table.
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  And I think the perception of diversity and inclusion is,
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  yeah, broadly misunderstood. You know, it's, it's not just
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  men and women. It's far broader than that.
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  So it's also about generations, about life phases.
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  It's about culture. It's about, you know, broadening
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  your horizons and trying to get more knowledge to process all
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  the information that you digest every day.
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  Yeah, so and that's going back to what you said earlier also
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  why it's so really important to be able to digest that
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  information and. If and take your time to do
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  that. So, so how, how can people do
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  that in, in a time, let's say, where we get so indeed, to your
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  point that we get so much information, I have a hard time
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  dealing with all the information prompts that I get on a daily
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  basis. Human brain, I think is wired to
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  do like 95% on autopilot. So you you need to certain
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  extent really to to put things in boxes to to be able to deal
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  with it. No, I agree.
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  I think everybody has the same problem.
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  Nowadays, 95% of our behaviour is actually mostly unconscious.
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  So I let that sink in. But how we could do this in
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  profiling, we use fight, flight, freeze, because every human
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  being can do these three things. You know, you have to train
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  them, but you can, you're, you're open to, to learn.
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  So and the more experiences you have, the better you learn how
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  to, you know, use them. What we do as human beings is
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  default to a certain survival technique.
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  Like my default technique is flight.
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  But if I think about things I always say how do?
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  You find out what your default. Is yeah, you can find out
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  because if you ask yourself questions, how do I behave in
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  certain situations? What do I do?
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  What do I think, what do I feel? Then you can distinguish between
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  fight, flight and freeze because there are, they are very
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  distinguished and but you can all, you can do them all.
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  I always say when nobody's dying and nothing is on fire,
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  literally, you have time. And it would be really helpful
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  for everyone to sometimes ask themselves, what is my best
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  strategy right now instead of defaulting to your favorite and
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  everybody has a favorite. That's and that's OK.
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  But I think that would really make conversations different and
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  it would really deepen, you know, make more profound
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  conversations of, of, of. Yeah, but.
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  But I think it would also give people sort of mental rest
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  because they, they, at least that's what I have.
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  When I meditate, it's, it's literally a point where I think
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  in the 1st 10 minutes or so, all the options sort of pass my in
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  my brain. And then after 10 minutes, it's
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  quietens down. There are more ways than one to
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  put yourself at ease, literally. And I think everybody can find
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  their own way in how to do that, you know?
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  But I think it's really important.
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  Like, I don't really watch television anymore because it
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  just, you know, it wakes me up at night.
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  It worries me. It's too much.
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  It's just too much information. And if I stick to what I can,
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  what I can influence, what I can offer as a human being and just
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  keep my world a little bit smaller than.
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  And it's not like I don't know what's going on in the world.
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  But yeah, it's just a little bit.
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  You know, I backed down on World News also because it's very hard
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  to, to find out what is, what is right, what is wrong, what is
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  true, what is not true, who's saying what you know.
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  And before you know it, you're all you're living in like, like
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  twilight zones, you know, and I don't want to live there.
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  I I just want to be able to, even if it's a small step for
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  people or a small contribution to society, I I choose that.
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  So I was wondering, yeah, because you're a confidential
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  counsellor, what prompted you to become one?
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  What triggered you? What?
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  What made it interesting? Well, I think in the end, my
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  whole career was built about around a deep conviction that I,
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  I feel that every human being should have some kind of legal
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  certainty in their lives. And we live in a democracy that
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  really offers that in a broad sense.
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  But we can always do better, you know?
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  But I think that's when I studied law.
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  That's why I started to study law.
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  I think becoming a mediator was also contributing to that
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  conviction. And I think confidential
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  counselling really does the same thing, you know, and we, we
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  started before the television broadcasts of both.
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  So we were at it for a while at that time.
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  And it's something that really contributes to to a better,
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  healthier, safer and more diverse society.
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  And I think that's really in the end, yeah, something that I find
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  purposeful. How is that relationship?
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  How does it contribute to a safer society?
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  If if I stick to the Netherlands, then what we saw is
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  that there was a long time of that of, you know, not talking
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  about these things until actually the Bose broadcast and
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  things were happening, but they, they weren't really spoken
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  about. Now there's a time that, that
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  everybody, you know, feels more space to talk about things.
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  So you see that there's more talking about it, but you also
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  see that some people say, oh, we can't say anything anymore.
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  We can't do anything anymore. And that's not true.
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  We just need to find a new normal by talking to each other
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  about what is right for you, what is right for me?
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  How do we coexist in a, in a way that you know, doesn't damage
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  anyone, but you need to have a, a real conversation about those
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  things. So it's not about reporting
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  something and then damaging something, someone else.
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  It's about really finding out where as a society is our new
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  normal. And I think the profession of
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  confidential counselling, if you try to do it right, really
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  contributes to that. Yeah.
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  So, so for context, the the Bose that's Bos, maybe describe what
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  this was about for, let's say non Dutch listeners, because it
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  was a really I think it really triggered something in the
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  society. Yeah, it did it liked.
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  The Black Beat discussion, by the way.
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  Yeah, yeah. True.
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  The Bose broadcast told us about a big company that, yeah, that
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  actually produced a television show that was watched by a lot
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  of Dutch people, in which a few of the leading men were accused
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  of unwanted behaviour towards mostly young, very young women.
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  Yeah, but also to to between one of the jurors to to the other,
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  yeah, which surprised me a lot that yeah, yeah, even on on
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  let's say sort of an equal level on juror was accused of, of.
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  I don't know if that's still out there, the accusation, but it
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  was really powerful that he was seen as like really badly
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  behaving and and blackmailing the woman.
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  Yeah, I think it's one of the biggest problems I think in in
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  societies is when power or people feel some kind of power.
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  Because power in itself I think is not a bad thing if you can
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  use it in the right way. But there are very little people
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  who can really handle power well.
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  Yeah. And that makes this is the root
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  of a lot of problems, yeah. Yeah.
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  And what struck me also about the whole broadcast is the
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  response that big the, the the CEO, the chief executive officer
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  of the broadcasting company had like AI didn't know and BI wish
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  people would report this. Yeah.
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  And that's sort of triggered 2 things in me.
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  One is that, yes, people should report this.
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  And two, if they don't report it, doesn't it tell you
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  something about your culture? It does.
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  I think at that time this really opened up a lot of conversations
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  and a lot of different, you know, different sides to the
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  conversation. But I think his response is
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  still a response that you even now hear sometimes.
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  There were a lot of places that he thought people would or could
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  go to within the company. Statistics show that people
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  don't report within the company that fast because they're afraid
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  of their career. In this case, the young talents
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  also said, you know, I'm not going to decline anything my
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  coach or mentor is going to offer me because that will lead
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  to repercussions to my own career.
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  You know, so in in hierarchy, it's very difficult for people
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  to handle the power of other people.
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  And I think it's always more the responsibility of the powerful
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  one in this case to really be conscious of the fact that you
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  are the one that's probably needs to be the wisest,
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  actually. So how do you, how do you build
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  a culture where people feel free to report is, is that possible,
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  you think? Yeah, I think that's possible.
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  I think it's possible to. There are a lot of things that
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  can lead to a safer culture and a more inclusive culture.
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  I think that having different kinds of people and because The
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  funny thing is mostly people hire people that look like them,
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  you know, because empathy is mostly felt towards people that
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  look like you. But empathy is therefore not
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  only not only a good thing, but it can be a thing that leads to
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  exclusion and to segregation and to discrimination, you know, and
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  people mostly don't know that, but it's, it's really also an
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  aspect of empathy. So you need to really think
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  about what does our company need, because sometimes it's
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  really good to hire someone that's not like you and that you
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  totally don't know what you have to do it with them or because
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  they have different perceptions. And that's good.
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  You know, that's where you learn and that's where people get you
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  towards a little bit out of your comfort zone instead of into it,
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  you know. So I think there are a lot of
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  but also being an example. Culture is something that is,
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  is, you know, is actually a top down thing.
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  You need to have culture bearers at the top of your organization
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  that that really, you know, do something about it, but also
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  live it and walk the talk. And you see people, you see CE
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  OS that say, yeah, no, I'm all for.
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  And then you see them having a parking space next to the
• 19:26
  entrance with their name on it, you know?
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  And then I'm like, OK. And or they have an open door
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  policy, they're just in meetings all day.
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  Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
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  So it's, but it's also big things.
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  Here's one example from my own past that comes to mind now,
• 19:46
  which is it's a it's a funny anecdote.
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  I started working at ING head office in I think 2000 and it
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  was just before we moved into the new glass building next to
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  the A10 because this wasn't open, supposed to be an open
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  space building. We were being prepared and I was
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  in the legal and compliance department, which is like if you
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  get to hierarchy, this is where hierarchy sort of starts.
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  Was invented. It was invented, you would say.
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  So there were these very well, relatively old lawyers who were
• 20:22
  like, OK, now I need to get out of an office into an open space,
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  which, and having an office at that time was really like a sign
• 20:32
  of seniority. So they felt demoted almost.
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  But then the the director of the department organized a field day
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  and everyone was there and we discussed how we're, we were
• 20:44
  going to do that. And one of the consultants who
• 20:47
  was helping us said, well, it's not about you.
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  This is everyone will be in an open space.
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  And then that's when it hits the director because he was like.
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  Me too. They are going to be in an open
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  space and I will have an office. And that's when the rebellion
• 21:07
  started because everyone was like and even he got corrected,
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  fortunately by the consultant. The end result, by the way, was
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  that everyone had his own office, except for the really
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  junior staff like me. But yeah, that just goes to
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  show. Because I don't know if open
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  offices always work because people do need a little bit of
• 21:28
  their own space and you know, to also reload or focus or you
• 21:33
  know, it's, it's, I don't know if it all, if it's always a
• 21:36
  working strategy. My personal experience is that
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  it's OK to have open space offices for work that let's say
• 21:48
  does not require a lot of concentration.
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  So it's really good for for team spirit, I found out, but it
• 21:56
  doesn't work if you can't have a meeting on the floor.
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  So he he need to have those separate spaces.
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  So you need to have some sort of quote UN quote officers to make
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  it work. And sometimes people really have
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  to to be in in a silent room because they have to concentrate
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  on something. Or sometimes people are like
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  really sensitive to noise and then yes, they need their own
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  space. Yeah, yeah, I think so too.
• 22:26
  So I, I was wondering, yeah, because one of the things going
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  back to the Bose example, one of the things that struck me as
• 22:33
  well is that the CEO kept pointing towards policy.
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  So we have a policy for this. Yeah, I think people try to find
• 22:43
  some consolation in policies or at least you know, try to show
• 22:50
  that they're working on it or and we are, I think we are one
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  of the few external confidential counsellors that really help
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  people from beginning to end. So we we make policies together
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  with the organizations that we work for and that's really
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  tailor made actually because every organization is different.
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  So next to judicial that you need to have written down, there
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  are a lot of, there's a lot of free, you know, space to make
• 23:20
  your own policies. I always say to the companies we
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  work with, in the end, of course we will have the policies in
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  place because that's, you know, you have to have some kind of
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  rules that people live by because otherwise it's going to
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  be 1 big frantic show. But when something really
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  happens and when push comes to shove, it's the people that need
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  to solve it together, you know, so I need to solve it with the
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  HR director or with the, with the CEO.
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  And that's never in, in my experience of the last 7-8
• 23:55
  years, that's never between 9:00 and 5:00.
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  So, and then you just, you need to fix, you need to fix it as
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  human beings. So we don't, you can't work with
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  everybody. And that's why I don't believe
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  in that. You don't know who you're going
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  to call when you're calling an external confidential
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  counsellor. You know, you need to know who
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  you're calling because the step towards calling is already
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  really big. And then you need to know that
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  the other, you know, the person at the other side of the line is
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  going to really listen to you and is not watching their
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  stopwatch or something like that.
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  So I think it's and then you know, policies, they are
• 24:35
  helpful, but they're not in itself the purpose of stuff.
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  You know, the purpose is to. Yeah, they don't do anything,
• 24:44
  No, except sit on paper. Yeah, they can support your
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  actions, but you know, they're not in itself the goal.
• 24:53
  So in the end, you, you need to, we always say in the beginning
• 24:58
  to really, you know, get to know each other as human beings.
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  And what do you stand for? What is important to you and
• 25:05
  what is the purpose of your organization?
• 25:08
  Can we, you know, can we align on what I call under the
• 25:12
  waterline? You know, what we see above the
• 25:14
  waterline of an iceberg is our behavior.
• 25:17
  And that's, that's perfectly fine.
• 25:18
  But our behavior is a result of everything that's that's within
• 25:22
  us. And if we can share about those
• 25:26
  things, then we really have deepened conversations, profound
• 25:30
  conversations of what is leading us, you know, and I think in the
• 25:35
  end, that's what solves really big problems.
• 25:39
  Yeah. When we spoke before, you told
• 25:42
  me that this is the first time we have 4 generations of people
• 25:47
  in the workplace. How does that impact things like
• 25:53
  trust, like inclusion, like leadership I?
• 25:57
  Think it, it's, it's really demanding on on, on people
• 26:01
  because it's an extra dimension of really needing to understand
• 26:05
  each other because generations have the tendency to think
• 26:11
  something about the former 1. So they, they always have
• 26:14
  something to nag about. I always say, I think it's a
• 26:19
  really unique time that we're in.
• 26:21
  And I think it's the perfect time to be challenged on how
• 26:28
  well you try to find the other. You know, your, your colleagues
• 26:32
  on the, on the, in the workspace, but also in, in life.
• 26:36
  I think it's not that segregated, but it's it's
• 26:40
  demanding, I think on leaders because different generations
• 26:44
  and different life phases need different leadership.
• 26:48
  But but I also think it's really, yeah, it's actually, I
• 26:51
  think it's a gift. So.
• 26:53
  But that's the way I look at it. Yeah.
• 26:55
  Because if you look at the younger generations, they are
• 26:58
  really fast. They can really, you know, I'm
• 27:01
  generation X when it comes to it.
• 27:03
  And I I really recognize myself in that.
• 27:06
  But I think our children are far better at watching their
• 27:10
  boundaries and not not working all the time.
• 27:13
  Really. You know, we are having
• 27:15
  conversations with them about the purpose in life and who
• 27:18
  would I be when they really have existential questions they ask
• 27:23
  themselves at like 22. So I think we could really learn
• 27:27
  from them as they could learn from us.
• 27:29
  But I think when you're, when you're older, I think when
• 27:32
  you're young, you, you think you know everything or you think,
• 27:37
  you know, you can handle the world.
• 27:39
  And I think that's a perfect thing because otherwise you
• 27:41
  wouldn't get married, you wouldn't have kids, you wouldn't
• 27:44
  make big life decisions, you know, And when you get older,
• 27:47
  you know for sure that you don't know for sure.
• 27:50
  And that's different because we always say we know what it's
• 27:54
  like to be 20, but they don't know what it's like to be 50.
• 27:58
  And you shouldn't talk like that.
• 28:00
  You know you shouldn't talk to younger people as if you know it
• 28:04
  all, because you don't. You know you don't know it all.
• 28:08
  Yeah, that's that's, that's really true.
• 28:10
  And also because it doesn't hit home with them to begin with.
• 28:15
  No. And I think also every human
• 28:17
  being has their own path, you know, and you, it's like also
• 28:21
  our generation that's now in leading positions in
• 28:24
  organizations. They they say about the younger
• 28:28
  generations. Oh, they, you know, they, they
• 28:30
  are always halfway around panicking.
• 28:33
  They can't solve things. Well, I don't know what they're
• 28:36
  saying, all of it, but and then then I look at them and then I
• 28:40
  say, OK, you have kids. Yeah.
• 28:42
  You, you raised this generation. So what are you saying?
• 28:46
  You know, how do you treat your own child then?
• 28:49
  And I don't recognize it actually, because, you know,
• 28:52
  when I look at the conversations we have with the kids, it's
• 28:55
  really nice. And they're in their 20s.
• 28:58
  And then I think, you know, there are really nice human
• 29:01
  beings who are really careful with their feelings.
• 29:04
  And so, and I think that's really something that other
• 29:07
  generations could really learn from.
• 29:10
  Yeah. And they are actually far better
• 29:13
  at switching between different information channels and that
• 29:17
  kind of stuff and finding out things and.
• 29:21
  But they're equally helpless if, like, the Internet isn't there
• 29:26
  anymore. Yeah, I think that's really, and
• 29:30
  that's something also, you know, I know and and I see that that's
• 29:34
  true in in daily life. Once we had one and she was on a
• 29:38
  station and the train wasn't coming or there was something
• 29:42
  wrong with and she called her dad and he said, I don't know
• 29:46
  why you're calling me because I'm 30 kilometres away.
• 29:49
  But ask someone who's on this. Same platform.
• 29:54
  The same platform as you are. Yeah.
• 29:56
  So a true point. True point.
• 29:57
  But I also think this is something, you know, you can
• 30:00
  teach your children how to interact.
• 30:03
  It's not just about the information channels.
• 30:06
  It's also about talking about stuff.
• 30:08
  You know, they always said to us, we're over communicating in
• 30:11
  our household. But I think now they're running
• 30:15
  into their 20s, they think that was a good thing.
• 30:18
  Is that also part of the responsibilities that leaders
• 30:21
  have? I think so.
• 30:26
  I think, yeah, I think there's no such thing as over
• 30:29
  communicating because trying to understand another human being
• 30:32
  is I think one of the most difficult things there is.
• 30:35
  And still, because you see this as a human being, you know, or
• 30:38
  even your partner or your, your family or friends, or you can
• 30:43
  love someone and still don't understand them, let alone when
• 30:47
  you don't love someone, how hard it is to really understand what
• 30:52
  they're saying. And life isn't static.
• 30:54
  You know, people change. People need different things in
• 30:57
  different stages of their life. And it's, it's it's the same
• 31:00
  thing as a mediator. When I did divorce mediation, I
• 31:05
  always thought, why are people so more like more people say
• 31:09
  that get a divorce. Thank you for your time.
• 31:13
  You taught me a lot. I hope I taught you a lot.
• 31:18
  Let's find out what life has to has in store for us as if now
• 31:23
  we've we've had kids or not. But if we had kids, it was
• 31:28
  because I loved you really, really, really, really badly,
• 31:31
  you know, and let's go on. Thank you.
• 31:36
  But we don't do that. And that's actually a shame.
• 31:39
  And the same with, you know, it's the same in friendships or
• 31:42
  in jobs. It's not like it's normal that
• 31:46
  you have one relationship or one friendship your whole life.
• 31:50
  It's it's rare, it's beautiful, but it's not normal, you know,
• 31:55
  it's so and so don't, don't fuss about it.
• 31:58
  Thank each other. It was nice and I loved you.
• 32:02
  I still love you, but in a different way.
• 32:04
  And that's fine. And I hope the best for you.
• 32:07
  You know that karmically that would be really helpful.
• 32:11
  That would save us a lot of tension.
• 32:15
  Also, again going back to the to the workplace because the
• 32:20
  divorces impact the workplace as well.
• 32:22
  Yeah, they do so. Heavily, what kind of can you
• 32:30
  give a couple of examples of things you see in your practice
• 32:33
  as as counsellor that are the result of these generational
• 32:38
  differences? Like are there specific views on
• 32:43
  how to treat people? I think.
• 32:46
  That differ from or that that are starting to become, let's
• 32:50
  say, less normal. I think one of the one of the
• 32:56
  things that is really an obstacle is the way that
• 33:01
  different generations treat hierarchy.
• 33:04
  So the oldest generation, they think, you know, do as you're
• 33:07
  told. That's actually the short
• 33:09
  version. And younger people ask
• 33:12
  questions. They ask, you know, what's the
• 33:14
  purpose of what we're doing? And they actually the oldest and
• 33:18
  the youngest generation in the workplace right now, they are
• 33:22
  both really motivated by purpose and that's something they share.
• 33:26
  But still the oldest generation things you need to, you know,
• 33:29
  I'm more experienced, so you might want to listen to me, you
• 33:33
  know, and it's not the way the younger generations work.
• 33:36
  They are really raised in a more.
• 33:39
  Democratic. Yeah, and, and more in equal, in
• 33:43
  equal positions. You know, you're, you're a human
• 33:46
  being. So we're talking to each other
• 33:48
  and I want to learn from you. But I can teach you some things
• 33:52
  too. And so they're not as sensitive
• 33:56
  to hierarchy as other generations are.
• 34:00
  And I think one of the obstacles is also that the younger
• 34:03
  generations really choose life as work life balance is
• 34:08
  something they really grew up with.
• 34:11
  And I think also because most of them have parents that worked
• 34:14
  really hard, you know, Gen. Gen.
• 34:17
  Z is the first generation that was really raised by two working
• 34:21
  parents mostly and raised with help by grandparents.
• 34:26
  They, you know, like we call them key, key children.
• 34:31
  And that's a really different way of growing up in the sense
• 34:35
  of also, you know, self reliability for solving stuff,
• 34:40
  you know, and that's really, I think that's really a good
• 34:43
  thing. And I think if you talk to each
• 34:45
  other about those kinds of things, you know, how do you
• 34:47
  want to solve it or what's our common goal, you reach each
• 34:52
  other in a faster way. But also I think the the
• 34:56
  solutions are far more reach, far more quality.
• 34:59
  Yeah. So really give people from
• 35:03
  hierarchy perspective as a leader, give people the goal,
• 35:07
  say this is this is the mission, this is the ballpark that it has
• 35:11
  to be in. Now sort out yourself which.
• 35:14
  Way you want to go towards that? Yeah.
• 35:17
  It's about trust to that. You trust people to be able to
• 35:22
  get there. And it might not be the road you
• 35:24
  would have taken, but that's fine.
• 35:27
  Yeah. You know, if you go to the goal,
• 35:30
  if you reach the goal, it's, it's fine.
• 35:33
  Yeah. And it gives people, I think
• 35:36
  more space to be their own person going towards that goal,
• 35:41
  you know, because one would, you know, take the the shortest road
• 35:46
  and one said and the other one says, I want to look there or I
• 35:49
  want to look there, or I'm taking this with me.
• 35:52
  That's fine. You know, it's if you have a
• 35:54
  deadline somewhere, they know I have this, I have this kind of
• 35:59
  resources. I have a certain amount of time
• 36:02
  and by that time I will be there.
• 36:05
  And if you have had a budget to it, they will be there within
• 36:09
  budget. Mostly, yeah.
• 36:11
  And if if not, then you can have a discussion about that.
• 36:16
  But I think the the autonomy is some of the that's actually next
• 36:21
  to attention. I think attention and autonomy
• 36:24
  are the things that, you know, we can give each other as human
• 36:26
  beings, which are extremely important to grow and evolve as
• 36:32
  a human being. You worked, you worked for and I
• 36:35
  just wanted to touch on this briefly because I found it like
• 36:38
  really interesting you worked for a Premier League team.
• 36:42
  Yeah, you, you, you can, you can call in, call me out.
• 36:47
  OK, you worked for menu. I think Manchester United at the
• 36:52
  time that a cat and Hoch was the coach.
• 36:55
  Yeah. So I love analogies with
• 36:58
  football because I think football is sort of a way to
• 37:02
  describe how you form a team and how you do, how you deal with
• 37:07
  people. Because there's especially with
• 37:09
  these big clubs like Menu, Manchester City, you have to not
• 37:14
  only put a team in place, but you also have to manage the egos
• 37:18
  as I call it. So my question is, what did you
• 37:22
  learn about team dynamics and how is is inclusion even a thing
• 37:29
  in a company like Manchester United?
• 37:32
  We're in a team centre. Yeah, I think it's definitely a
• 37:34
  thing, but I think it's also there are certain things that
• 37:37
  are really hard about about big clubs like this.
• 37:42
  They're not only an organization that has people that work for
• 37:46
  them, but they're also a club and this makes it really
• 37:50
  special. That's a special dynamic.
• 37:55
  A group of people is not the same thing as a team.
• 37:59
  Before you can become a team, you need to do some, some
• 38:03
  things. I think what's also hard is that
• 38:09
  you have, it's homogeneous. So it's men or it's women, which
• 38:15
  can be a good thing, but it it also lacks a few things.
• 38:18
  So that's, and I think what is hard is the extreme pressure
• 38:25
  that is laid upon these mostly young people.
• 38:32
  And I think most people really don't understand how much
• 38:36
  pressure that is. But I've, I've looked at them
• 38:40
  and actually, I, I gain respect for them a lot because, and I
• 38:46
  also mostly people say very easily, they make a lot of
• 38:52
  money. So they should, you know, put up
• 38:55
  with all of it. They have no idea how hard these
• 38:58
  people work and how little of life they have left and how hard
• 39:06
  it is. So it's really, I didn't go as
• 39:12
  often as I might have, should have gone, I think.
• 39:16
  But for my work as a profiler, I didn't need to go there all the
• 39:20
  time. And it's almost impossible to
• 39:23
  work as hard there as I can do here because of the total
• 39:29
  distraction that is always there.
• 39:31
  You know, it's like a madhouse. Yeah.
• 39:34
  So it's really special. Met House in terms of of of
• 39:38
  people coming. Everybody's.
• 39:40
  Looking at you supporters, looking at you different
• 39:44
  fractions of supporters, because that's also something that I
• 39:48
  think is less understood about football.
• 39:51
  There's not such a thing as a Manchester United or a fan or
• 39:55
  fan there's. Everybody has an opinion, you
• 39:59
  know, it's really, and opinions are like assholes.
• 40:02
  Everybody has one. It's really, it's, it's and it's
• 40:07
  really for for young, you know, a lot of these guys, they are
• 40:11
  1718 years old or 20. You know, it's, it's really
• 40:16
  forming. But it's also you can really,
• 40:18
  really damage people at a young age.
• 40:20
  So yeah, well, it was a very special time.
• 40:24
  And also it taught me a lot. Yeah.
• 40:28
  OK. Yeah.
• 40:29
  So can you give me an example what it taught you?
• 40:31
  That we're really too fast with our judgements about top sport.
• 40:38
  There's mostly people say something about the intelligence
• 40:41
  level of football players or different kinds of athletes.
• 40:44
  They are treated like they should do everything or know
• 40:47
  everything that the people want from them.
• 40:50
  You know, like they're puppets. They're not.
• 40:52
  It was really nice to. They are really lovely young
• 40:56
  people that have a lot of things to say and they are just like
• 41:01
  everybody else. And I knew that already, but
• 41:03
  it's just proof to show. And I actually sometimes really
• 41:08
  felt sorry for them actually, or felt compassion towards their
• 41:12
  lives. Yeah.
• 41:14
  They're, they're sort of treated like the FIFA game.
• 41:19
  Yeah, they're they're supposed to be robots and be able to
• 41:23
  execute to perfection every time.
• 41:26
  So if they give a bad ball, everyone in the stadium is like,
• 41:29
  how come a guy that earns so much money gives the wrong ball?
• 41:33
  But people. Yeah, and also forget.
• 41:35
  That they're human. Now and it's, it's really, you
• 41:38
  know, if you come from, because some of the guys they come from,
• 41:43
  you know, having nothing and then having everything or, or
• 41:47
  being able to have everything that money can buy.
• 41:50
  But wanting actually, because everybody wants something from
• 41:54
  you. But actually what you want is
• 41:57
  just to be held sometimes and that somebody's saying to you,
• 42:00
  it's going to be all right, you know, I'm having your back.
• 42:03
  That's really, you know, the, the, the loving or the warmth or
• 42:08
  the, the protection from other human beings.
• 42:11
  That's really something that's forgotten most of the time,
• 42:15
  yeah. So this is a really male
• 42:19
  dominated part of the world of the workforce, let's say,
• 42:22
  Although did you also have any encounterance with the women's
• 42:26
  team by chance? No, no, no.
• 42:29
  Just just curious, but I was wondering more in general, like
• 42:33
  we talked about leadership, we talked about generational
• 42:36
  differences. I was wondering how men can
• 42:40
  contribute to more diverse and inclusive society.
• 42:46
  I think by, by raising consciousness also among each
• 42:49
  other, amongst each other. I think what I see in the
• 42:54
  practical sense is that things don't start at work mostly.
• 42:59
  They start, you know, in I always pick the example of men
• 43:02
  having like a little race club, you know, on Sunday morning and
• 43:06
  then they go like biking and in the in the app group, they share
• 43:12
  pictures of women or, or, you know, making fun of other people
• 43:17
  or these are the little things that you should actually start
• 43:22
  with to ask yourself, is this what we should do?
• 43:26
  Because it these little things, it's all little things that lead
• 43:29
  up to the bigger fact that people don't talk to each other
• 43:33
  about what they like or that they don't like something or
• 43:37
  that it feels offensive or not safe or, you know, that it makes
• 43:42
  them feel weird. And in the end, it's not our
• 43:45
  purpose, I think as people to make other people feel weird.
• 43:49
  You know, we have to try to live together and coexist in the best
• 43:53
  way for all of us, you know, so. Yeah, but there's also something
• 43:59
  that is forgotten on, I think both sides of the debate.
• 44:02
  Actually. I was in a discussion yesterday.
• 44:05
  It was a panel discussion. I was not on the panel for
• 44:07
  context, but I was in the in the room and there was a woman.
• 44:12
  It was about funding female founders.
• 44:14
  And then one of the panelists and men said, well, maybe we
• 44:18
  should talk about funding founders and not making the
• 44:22
  distinction between men and women.
• 44:24
  Because in the end, if you have a diverse team, it, it doesn't
• 44:27
  really matter if you're a man or a woman.
• 44:29
  I'm just going to look at you as a, as a founder, as an
• 44:32
  investment object. And I should not discriminate.
• 44:35
  And then someone in the room said yes.
• 44:37
  But for me as a woman, it's, it's important to identify as a
• 44:41
  woman because it's part of my identity.
• 44:45
  So I feel a bit. Yeah.
• 44:48
  And there's. Still, I think there's also
• 44:50
  still a real deep grounded bias in this world, you know, that
• 44:55
  women are less competent or less trustworthy because they also
• 45:01
  can have children. And if they have children,
• 45:03
  they're, you know, are out of the work process for a little
• 45:06
  while or whatever the biases are, but they are there.
• 45:11
  It's not we should talk about these biases.
• 45:14
  I am not in every sense all for positive discrimination, but I
• 45:19
  do think that upfront as founder should you should think about
• 45:24
  diversity, you know, and try to find the network that delivers
• 45:29
  that kind of diversity to your start up.
• 45:33
  And I'm saying this because I support and I'm in the in the
• 45:37
  Advisory Board of a tech start up in Amsterdam.
• 45:41
  And those are three really talented men, young men who are
• 45:46
  really into R&D and, you know, software, hardware, but they
• 45:51
  need you get a, you get a different kind of energy from
• 45:56
  different people. So I always say to them, you
• 45:59
  know, and now they are getting somebody who's a little bit
• 46:01
  older and they're getting somebody who's 10 years younger
• 46:05
  than they are, you know, so it's not only about men and women.
• 46:08
  It's also about where are you from?
• 46:11
  Because now they have different cultures, different ages, people
• 46:15
  contribute different things because of different aspects of
• 46:19
  their lives or culture. And I think what, what we can
• 46:22
  all do is keep on talking about it, you know, and not not
• 46:27
  silencing about it, but also trying to figure out because
• 46:32
  it's not one-size-fits-all, you know, So what doesn't work for
• 46:35
  one organization can work for yet for another.
• 46:38
  So keep looking at it as tailor made stuff.
• 46:42
  And it also has to do with timing, so things that may not
• 46:45
  work now may work in 3-5 years. Yeah.
• 46:49
  People always say, you know, we haven't tried this before and it
• 46:52
  didn't work. And then I always say if you
• 46:54
  tried it before, it seemed to someone it was a good idea.
• 46:57
  So it might now be, you know it, Yeah.
• 47:01
  That's a that's a nice bridge to my closing question, Kirsten, My
• 47:08
  so my mission is to make inclusion and techno new normal
• 47:11
  by the end of 2032. Based on your on your work and
• 47:15
  your experience, what can we all do to to get there?
• 47:20
  What what is a common thing that we that all companies could.
• 47:23
  This is actually a hard question.
• 47:26
  I don't know if there's something that all organizations
• 47:30
  could do. I do think that in the end, the
• 47:34
  solution is in, in, in our cultures and in our
• 47:39
  organizational cultures, which take a little bit of time.
• 47:43
  It's not an it's not an individual responsibility, It's
• 47:48
  a collective responsibility to address this and keep addressing
• 47:53
  this. If we, if we want to solve the
• 47:56
  big problems that we have as societies like climate change
• 48:00
  and all kinds of stuff, then we need to do it together.
• 48:03
  So we need, we need every human being possible.
• 48:08
  And this should be, I think the reason that we all try to go for
• 48:13
  it. But I think to try to be open as
• 48:15
  an individual really helps the collective to get somewhere.
• 48:21
  Sounds like a great place to close.
• 48:23
  Kirsten Ogles, thank you very much.
• 48:26
  You're welcome. Thank you.
• 48:27
  If people want to learn more about you and connect with you,
• 48:31
  where would you like to send them?
• 48:33
  Well, we have a website. I'm on LinkedIn.
• 48:36
  The website is 1 for two social innovation.com.
• 48:41
  Definitely. To call me.
• 48:43
  OK. I won't include the the phone
• 48:46
  number in the because that's going to be on the website I
• 48:49
  suppose. Yeah, I.
• 48:50
  Think so, I'll include the links to your website and to your
• 48:54
  LinkedIn on the in the show notes, of course.
• 48:57
  Once again, thank you very much for an amazing conversation.
• 49:00
  Really enjoyed it. Listeners, thank you very much
• 49:04
  for listening and and until the next episode, keep being
• 49:08
  awesome. Well, that's a wrap for episode
• 49:16
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• 49:21
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