Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to David Gillespie-Pratt about his choice of The Myth Makers (3/4)

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Talks to David Gillespie-Pratt about his choice of The Myth Makers (3/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:23
None. Hamster with a blunt pen knife
0:35
for doing quicker. Quicker, Quicker.
0:40
Welcome back to a Hamster with a Blood Pen Dive the Doctor Who
0:43
Commentary podcast. Currently off to Asia Minor with
0:49
my good friend David Gillespie Pratt.
0:51
How are you, David? I'm doing very well enjoying the
0:54
Sandy Plains. Just avoid the photographic
0:57
backdrop that's just slightly in the background.
1:01
And I I believe we're seeing enormous horse behemoth coming
1:05
towards us now, rolling across the plains.
1:07
Yeah, we're just going to take it inside, you know, just ignore
1:10
it. I've heard it on good authority,
1:13
you know, that the Greek army has sailed away.
1:15
They're. Fine there.
1:16
There's not a whole load of, you know, massive blokes in armour,
1:19
you know, kind of puddled together in there.
1:22
That is definitely someone's idea of a of a perfect night
1:25
out. Is there I'm getting in then?
1:31
Only downside is that Hartnell's in there as well.
1:34
Well, you know what happens in the great horse of Troy stays in
1:38
the great Horse of. Troy, A load a load of Greeks in
1:40
battle armour in close quarters, I'm sure.
1:43
I'm sure the Doctor would have loved that.
1:45
The current Doctor probably would have enjoyed that probably
1:47
more. Oh.
1:48
Boy. And I met him this week, so I
1:51
can tell you the Greeks wouldn't be complaining either.
1:54
Oh. I can't wait.
1:57
I am. I'm really looking forward to
2:00
the Christmas special. I know some people have already
2:03
seen it, but. You could be talking about.
2:06
No idea. It's fantastic.
2:08
It is really great. It feels like a bold new dawn,
2:11
you know, for the show. I think we've us mere mortals
2:15
have just had the musical number and it is currently sailing up
2:21
the charts as we're approaching Christmas.
2:23
And the idea that the Goblin song might be even close to
2:26
getting to be a number one single is just insane.
2:29
It's about eating babies. It's a good it's a good retort
2:33
to the Doctor, Who is dead hashtag.
2:36
Yes, indeed. So are the ratings which are now
2:40
you know, 8.7 million or something for the Star Beast?
2:43
I think you know because it because it dropped like half a
2:47
million or something. It's like 2 is dead and like you
2:51
know maybe what will you say about the myth makers because
2:53
you know that as we said, the ratings dropped, the audience
2:56
appreciation is bad. But imagine a lot of them would
2:58
probably you know if we said oh death of a spies turned up they
3:02
would probably have they probably wet themselves at the
3:05
the the prospect of it. I don't actually think numbers
3:08
ever equate policy ever. Because if you look at some of
3:10
the lowest rated Doctor Who stories are some of the best
3:14
considered Doctor Who stories some of the time, like the war
3:16
games and things like that, you know?
3:18
The war games, they were like the the seasons 25 or 26 where
3:21
you know, it was getting his act together and it was starting to
3:24
actually try to do something different.
3:26
And also, sometimes the highest viewing figures doesn't
3:29
necessarily guarantee quality. You look at the web Planet, for
3:32
God's sake. I I know, boy.
3:35
I quite like Voyage of the Down, but it's not everybody's
3:37
favourites. No.
3:39
Yeah. Well, next doctor, that got 13
3:41
million. You know, so this I.
3:44
Mean. Look at Look at A Christmas
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Carol That got 13 million. Oh, it's abysmal.
3:50
What? You don't like all that singing
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I. Don't oh God, let's not go into
3:56
that. I'll I'll end up upsetting
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Fraser Gregory too much. We don't and we don't want to
4:01
upset anybody with these podcasts.
4:02
We want to keep it light and entertaining and that's why
4:06
we'll probably, you know, do a Capaldi next, you know, because
4:09
that's going to be great fun and Capaldi Moffat script.
4:11
I promise to keep it light and entertaining until the end,
4:14
where there's a possibility I may murder you horribly.
4:18
That's that's fine. Because, you know, basically
4:20
then you'll just run away. And then you know, next week,
4:22
I'm sure things will be wonderful and happy and light
4:24
and joyous when the nightmare begins.
4:27
Sure. Well, I've got a question for
4:29
you. Go for.
4:31
It and that is, I feel like this is a Black Anther episode 25
4:38
years early, and that it's taking a historical period.
4:44
I know it's a myth. It's taking a historical period,
4:47
and it's doing something very characterful and witty with it.
4:51
And I was watching this and I I knew that Rob Sherman had made
4:54
the illusion about this being like Blackadder in running
4:57
through corridors. And also she'd go, yeah, I could
5:00
see Rowan Atkinson in this. I could see Hugh Laurie in this.
5:04
Well, we were saying Hugh Laurie is kind of in this and I think
5:07
you could imagine Stephen Fry being king prior.
5:10
And I'd love to see Miranda Richardson have a go at
5:12
Cassandra. It it, it is very Blackadder
5:16
like because like Blackadder 2, Blackadder goes forth.
5:20
They both have slightly bleak endings.
5:24
You know, they just they they know when the comedy stops.
5:27
I mean maybe not so much Blackout 2, that's just kind of
5:29
a punchline but certainly Blackout goes forth.
5:31
It's like it becomes very serious in the in the last
5:36
episode, the last 10 minutes particularly.
5:38
So I think that there's there's there's there's merit in that
5:42
way. I think it is and it has got
5:44
similar sort of humour. It's clever humour.
5:46
It it's the wit is all there in the dialogue, isn't it?
5:50
And they're not play and are they playing it kind of
5:55
classically or they're playing it because there's some bits
5:57
where we're talking about Paris in episode 2 when he's kind of
5:59
that's not that's not the done thing, you know that's.
6:03
I don't think so at all. Like you, like you said, with
6:07
the camera script being quick edits, I think they're playing
6:13
it very quick as well. Like a modern day comedy, like a
6:17
modern day soap opera that would be played very fast, sort of
6:19
sort of Hancock, that sort of thing at the time, where the
6:22
dialogue exchanges are back and forth I think.
6:24
That's one of the directions they were given, which is play
6:27
it like a cop, play it like a sitcom.
6:30
Yeah, these historical dramas are a bit drab.
6:33
Let's, let's beef them up a bit. You know, and.
6:36
I think because there's a there's was a story when they
6:38
were doing I, Claudius where I think when they started
6:40
recording they struggled. The actors struggled to get into
6:42
it. And I think I don't know what
6:45
the direction was but they found it was like, is it basically
6:48
it's not a a Roman thing. It's like it's basically just a
6:50
family. Yeah.
6:52
Well comedy like yes. And that's when they started to
6:55
you know, they played it. They didn't play it all fest
6:58
like you play it more not real because it's not.
7:01
They're not. These are not real performance.
7:02
In fact, that's why is not giving, you know, a real
7:06
performance. You haven't met my sister, mate.
7:08
All right, She is incredibly over the soap.
7:12
Well, she's bloody annoying as well it.
7:14
Appears at the top of the stairs and can strike me out saying how
7:17
dare you? Oh, she used that one once or
7:19
twice. Yeah, mostly when everyone's
7:22
having a good time. Who, if Tony Robinson would be
7:27
Cyclops, I'm guessing, Who would Stephen Fry be in this?
7:31
I think he'd be King Prime. Oh, of course he would, Yeah.
7:35
Because he he the slightly buffoonish, probably slightly
7:42
straighter character of those 3 royal family, he is the the more
7:47
normal of them, but you can see Stephen Fry doing that.
7:52
I mean as the highest compliment that I think you could take this
7:55
scenario and do a season of 6 Blackadder episodes with these
8:00
characters in this scenario leading up to the the downfall
8:04
of Troy, I mean. If somebody wanted to in the
8:08
60s, they could have got most of this cast and done a sitcom
8:12
because they it would have worked.
8:14
I think they've just stuck William Hartland, the rest of
8:17
them in and decided, Oh yes I do, let's just have a really
8:21
bleak ending. But that's the magic, isn't it?
8:23
The Doctor Who Element and the TARDIS.
8:26
You know, the magic of Doctor Who is a bloody massacre.
8:30
Well, yeah. Jesus, how, how?
8:32
There's plenty of stories, you know, especially in the mid 80s
8:35
that ended with a massive massacre.
8:37
Well. We, the Gocolas, entered it half
8:40
the universe and then within the flux.
8:43
Well, quite, yeah. There's there's no universe
8:45
left, is there? It'll, it'll gets off.
8:48
It'll be, it'll get better. It'll be fine.
8:50
We'll cover it with a line. Thanks, Terence.
8:54
Well, look, we should probably, you know, because you and I
8:56
could waltz around the mid 80s, you know, take a trip to
9:00
Blackadder. But really, what we've got to do
9:02
is come back here and talk about the third episode of The Myth
9:05
Makers. Death of a spark, Death of a Spy
9:09
of the And there's apparently a story behind the title, which
9:13
may or may not be true. Oh, do you know the story?
9:17
I I shall repeat the story as I understand it, but.
9:20
Shall we count us in, You count us in and then tell us a story?
9:24
So 321 off we. Go.
9:29
Here we go. So episode is called Death of a
9:33
Spy and Donald Cotton apparently said the title Death of a Spy
9:38
was sort of forced on him and there was like, but he then said
9:42
but there isn't a spy in the story, so they had to create the
9:45
character of Cyclops just to be killed.
9:48
In this episode, there was no space, there was no space for
9:51
more dialogue. Therefore that's why he's mute.
9:56
The Black Archives suggest that this is possibly a bit of a tall
10:00
tale, because they've got the early draft outlines and some of
10:05
the original synopsis, and there are spies in it more prominent
10:10
in the story, so I think it's probably one of those.
10:13
It's a good story, but it's probably not very accurate.
10:18
Do you know what is astonishing about Season 3 is how much of it
10:24
when you learn the behind the scenes?
10:25
How much of it was improvised on the spot like they were pretty
10:28
desperate half the time? Think about Darla's master plan,
10:31
where they only had snippets of scripts and Douglas Canton was
10:35
just going well, let me know what I you know, where I can
10:38
shoot and I'll. I'll give you something that's a
10:42
good example of this. You know, the sort of the
10:44
mistake around Lauren O'Brien leaving Katarina in and gone,
10:49
Sarah Kingdom in and gone. What's astonishing is how good
10:52
it is. It is better than it has any
10:54
right to be at times. You know, this is one of those
10:57
things. I think it was a while ago I put
10:59
a thing out on Twitter and it was basically, you know, times
11:03
where behind the scenes problems are apparent on screen.
11:07
Because I think, I think it was not long before after we did
11:09
Underworld, because I think that's one of those instances
11:12
where behind the scenes stuff is, is on the screen.
11:15
I think the season three there's, you know, you've got
11:18
the star who's not getting on with his producer, you've got
11:23
the scripts kind of, you know, termination, underwriting his
11:26
scripts. You've got all these behind the
11:27
scenes difficulties and then you've got obviously a bit of a
11:30
revolving door cast. You've got revolving Donald Tosh
11:33
goes and then John Wiles goes. Or you've got stories like
11:36
Celestial Toymaker that's been rewritten about 50 times, you
11:42
know, but that for the most part I think we can debate whether or
11:46
not Toymaker's effective. But for the most part this works
11:51
master plan, overall work massacre.
11:54
And that's another one that was heavily rewritten.
11:58
The awkward. You know, this is a really
12:01
strong season. Oh, it's my favorite Hartnell
12:03
season. It nearly could.
12:04
It so could not have been. Or there are other times where
12:08
let's say there is a distress field to the show, like you
12:13
know, trial of a Time Lord and sort of 24 as well, where you
12:16
know, you know, scripts weren't ready and you know, the things
12:20
were going on behind the scenes And you know, it's a reasonable
12:24
result, but you can kind of feel and sort of aching at the seams.
12:31
And the the, the, the, the big difference is that we can't see
12:35
a lot of that. So there may well be that there
12:38
might have been things more apparent on screen.
12:40
Maybe things were, you know, I don't.
12:42
Know, but then you get to stuff like the gun fires, which I
12:44
think is a remarkably polished production.
12:46
And I was going to say that what we do have, because we've got
12:51
three episodes of Master Plan, even though 5 and 10 are just
12:55
padding really, they look. Great though.
12:58
So, well, I mean, there's. Such visual inventiveness in
13:01
those. Escape Switch has got one of the
13:05
most creative mixes, I think in the whole of Doctor Who's
13:09
history. When they they they have the
13:11
shot of the sun and it fades into the light on the Dalek
13:15
Dome. And Les, I say the the the war
13:18
machines, the the direction in that is out of this world.
13:23
I I think War Machines is quietly my favorite heart now, I
13:26
think. Oh really?
13:28
This is this. The width Makers has edged right
13:31
up the ranks. This is this might be like top
13:33
three for me now and I never would have said that before.
13:36
This is this deserves to be up there.
13:37
This is such a a strong and even though we can't visually get
13:42
massive grip on it, the fact that the script is strong enough
13:46
that you can come way going. I know this story, I I something
13:50
like the Smugglers, where you've got at least you've got telly
13:52
snaps, you've got probably a few more clips.
13:54
I actually got to retain bits of The Smugglers because I just
13:58
find it The script isn't as intelligent and all the sound of
14:04
it is quite dull. This isn't dull because one,
14:07
you've got these massively heightened performances, but
14:10
you've also got the music and you've got atmosphere.
14:13
It just it almost works like a radio production.
14:16
I think, you know, you can tell from the soundtrack that the
14:19
performances are good. We know that the script is good.
14:22
You can read the script so you know this is a great story that
14:25
they're telling with pace and humour.
14:29
Like I don't think this would disappoint if it turned up I, I,
14:32
I even if it was visually dragged, which I don't think it
14:35
is, I think you can tell from the pictures as well.
14:37
There's a bit of money in here. There's location work in here,
14:39
none of that. I I genuinely think this is a a
14:42
bit of a lost classic and it is a crying shame it's taken me
14:46
this long to discover a gem like this.
14:50
Well, I I would hope that anyone who's who is listening out
14:54
there, if you've not listened. Get that bloody soundtrack.
14:59
And listen to it because it the the the rated soundtrack works.
15:03
It's one of, it's one of the few that just works by itself
15:07
because certainly with like The Trouts, because they're so
15:10
visual, there's, you know, there are splits in some of the
15:13
translated, there's just lots and lots and lots of narration.
15:15
But actually I felt when I listened to this the other day
15:18
that there's not as much at times.
15:20
The script is doing all the work, the original recording's
15:22
doing all the work. I think it's only really in the
15:25
final episode where things sort of kick off that it relies more
15:29
on having a bit of description. On how it is, Yeah, How it is
15:31
visually, Yeah, that was the one episode where I was like, ah,
15:34
not seeing this is affecting my enjoyment of this.
15:38
And I think it will. It would have looked really I I
15:42
I just think from the bits we can gleam and just the
15:46
inventiveness of it, we are missing something very special,
15:51
I think I. Say, right, yeah.
15:55
Well, as I say, we're in the scene now, aren't we, Where, oh,
15:58
this is the scene we're talking about the catapult, but we're
16:01
coming up to the bit where the doctor's going to say, you know,
16:04
very quickly, Oh well, have you thought of a horse?
16:07
And what the modern sensibility, the very modern meta sensibility
16:12
is to hang a Lantern on things. Right.
16:15
And that's exactly what Donald Cotton does straight away as
16:17
Agan Aganem. Oh, whatever his name is,
16:20
Agamemnon. Say, that's ridiculous.
16:22
Why on earth would they take the horse in?
16:25
Because it's what we're all thinking and.
16:27
You see that's quite a modern thing because if they didn't
16:31
mention it, you probably wouldn't.
16:33
You know, we, you know, we being, you know clever viewers
16:35
going, you know, isn't that silly.
16:37
Go back to the Red Dwarf thing and like you know how daft is
16:40
that? But if you write it in and you
16:42
kind of go, well, yeah, they they they will do it you and and
16:46
that that kind of it's that meta sort of joke.
16:51
I think Donald Cotton writes comedy brilliantly, and he gets
16:56
comedy and Doctor Who well. And he he gets the best out of
17:00
the three regulars, even though Steven and Vicky spend most of
17:03
this episode in a cell. Well, The thing is, it's not
17:06
people tripping over and doing Panamaic things, it comes from
17:09
the characters. So he defines the characters and
17:12
then he finds humour in them interacting.
17:15
And I think one of the the the companion pairings that only in
17:20
the last few years people have started to appreciate is Vicky
17:22
and Steven. They didn't get enough time,
17:24
though. They only had those three and
17:26
very much of the three full stories they do together.
17:29
It's the Time Meddler and myth makers, and with Galaxy 4 just
17:34
sort of in the middle. But even then, one of the best
17:37
things of Galaxy 4 is the three regulars.
17:39
Their chemistry is out as well, especially in the time Meddler
17:43
actually in the scenes now where they're in the adjoining cells
17:46
and Stephen's sort of poking at her going, oh, you and your new
17:48
toy boy troilers. It's the only time, because I
17:52
don't think that you had it in Galaxy 4, because they don't
17:54
really have a lot of time together in that.
17:56
But this is their picking up their relationship from where it
18:01
was in time Meddler, where he's a bit sarcastic.
18:04
He's not quite taking things entirely seriously, but and
18:08
they're needling each other. They kind of got that, Sort of.
18:10
Brother, Sisters. The relationship.
18:12
There's a lot of different relationships going on and
18:16
Maureen O'Brien gives a better performance than this than the
18:20
series deserved considering what happened to her, which you know,
18:26
they've finished Galaxy Four, they finish the the series, she
18:30
goes off on holiday. She comes back thinking that,
18:32
OK, she's not a massive she's vocal in her dislike of working
18:39
on the show. Well, she says in the interview
18:41
she thought she was slamming in Doctor, that she just wasn't,
18:43
and I don't think she wasn't at all.
18:45
I think there's moments where the Ryan lets her down.
18:47
I don't know if she ever lets the series down.
18:49
No, she she always does her best.
18:52
Even when some of the scripts are are not great.
18:54
She always is trying to make it work.
18:57
I think what helps is Vicki gets retooled around Space Museum
19:04
because in her. Revolution.
19:06
Those three or four stories, she's a bit Susan, like she's
19:08
probably, I think in the Crusade.
19:10
She's pretty much written as a child.
19:13
And and same, and in the Romans, you know, we're like, oh, we're
19:15
going to Rome. And in Web Planet as well, she's
19:18
written quite childlike in in Web Planet.
19:20
And then all of a sudden you get to the Space Museum and she,
19:23
she's written as slightly older, a bit more grown up.
19:26
And that's kind of how she is for the rest of her time.
19:29
And she's much better. She she's fine beforehand, but
19:32
she she's just broke from the Space Museum on.
19:36
She's just nailing it every single time.
19:38
What? She has to get right in this
19:39
story, and we ain't there yet. But it's in that last episode
19:43
where Troyla says, you know, you betrayed us and she hasn't.
19:46
She has to convince him. No, I didn't betray you.
19:49
Look, this terrible thing has happened.
19:50
We've got to go and I'm willing to build a life with you and
19:54
it's a lot to ask for one scene and she fucking nails it, she.
19:58
Does. And you know, it's like we're
20:01
saying with Hartnell before you know, you've basically you've
20:03
come back and you've found out you've got four episodes and
20:05
then you're out of work and you could just go sod it.
20:09
I'm not going to bother. But no, she's This is one of her
20:13
best performances. And then the next time we see
20:15
her, which technically is Tales From the TARDIS, she slips back
20:19
into that role effortlessly. She does.
20:22
I I haven't listened to so much of the Big Finish.
20:27
Oh, she's great. She's really great.
20:29
I think the The Companion Chronicles I I I think the
20:32
Companion Chronicles were sort of the best of Big Finish.
20:35
For sure, yeah. I think you.
20:37
Know. Lean is the fact that your audio
20:39
books and stop trying to be cinema on audio.
20:42
But yeah, that's another conversation.
20:44
Cinema on audio. Oh, I'm going to nick that one.
20:46
Thank you. That's a good one.
20:47
And yeah, because I think was it frost fire was the first one
20:50
that she did. It's great, isn't it?
20:52
And and that just sets the toe and she's she's really good.
20:56
And the fact that she about, you know stepped away from Doctor
21:00
for so many years. And I think this because she was
21:03
very vocal at scripts. I think the story goes, or the
21:05
legend goes that because John Wiles was shadowing on Galaxy
21:10
Four, he wasn't producing, but he was back about to take over
21:13
and he either heard her or saw her basically slagging the
21:16
scripts off. And that was the multiple point.
21:19
He was like, Yep, she's we're writing her out well.
21:23
To be fair though, the script for Galaxies 4I mean, come on.
21:27
I mean. The chase.
21:29
I mean, I love the chase, but it's everything the show
21:31
shouldn't be doing. The The Chase is one of my
21:36
favourite Hartnell stories. It's so fun.
21:39
It remembers to be fun, but then that's that's the that's what
21:45
the whole Hartnell era was doing, is that it did different
21:48
stuff. You've got the comedy, you've
21:50
got the it's in in just season three, you've got comedy, you've
21:53
got the dark historicals, you've got the epics.
21:57
It's some of the most. I think the Hartnell era is some
21:59
of the most varied in storytelling and it took chances
22:04
at times. I think there's another time
22:06
where the show has as much scope as Hartnell's time, where they
22:09
try as many things. And you know, I, I, I love the
22:13
trout here. Trout 2nd Doctor's probably my
22:15
favorite classic Doctor. But there is no escaping the
22:18
formulaic nature of especially Season 5.
22:23
And I think it works better when you watch stories in isolation.
22:26
If you watch it and watch season five beginning to end, it's
22:30
like, oh, it's just the same story again.
22:32
Another intransigent base commander.
22:34
Here we go. And and yet, you know, season
22:38
three, I think season three possibly got the most variety.
22:42
I mean, it is it is pretty bleak.
22:45
In the whole of the the whole of Doctor Who, you don't have as
22:48
much variety anywhere else as three, I don't think.
22:51
I think does it. It's possibly the season with
22:54
the most stories in it as well, because there's a lot of four
22:57
parters. I wonder he was exhausted.
23:00
I mean, they because they stopped doing the long stories.
23:04
Well apart from Master Plan, I think they're all four parters
23:08
in this season and I think it that's to its benefit as well
23:10
that they are tighter and they they could probably be tightened
23:13
a little bit more now. But you don't have, and as much
23:18
as I love a good six parter, you can't deny that a lot of those
23:22
six parters are far too long. And Season 3, they're all just a
23:26
little bit punchier. I've.
23:28
Got another question for you. Yeah.
23:31
How on earth did we get from you can't change one history.
23:36
You can't change history. Not one line in the Aztecs to
23:39
what are we going to do with this Time Meddler in the time
23:42
Meddler to oh, well, here's the plans for the great horse of
23:47
Troy. Go on, get your army in there.
23:49
And murdered a lot of them. I mean, it's a bit of a term.
23:54
It's an explanation other than John Walls came in and thought,
23:58
I'm going to do something different with these.
24:00
He's got a very naughty man, you know.
24:03
I think the decision is the Doctor's got to be involved.
24:06
I think the the the problem with having the he must stay on the
24:09
sidelines and I think you see that in stuff like the crusade
24:14
sometimes is that the Doctor doesn't really drive the story.
24:18
The history and the historical characters of driving the story.
24:21
The Doctor and the Companions aren't so much and they have to
24:23
be able to be written into a subplot or a side plot, but like
24:27
it is. Fascinating for that, isn't it?
24:28
But it doesn't really feel like a Doctor Who story.
24:32
And the massacre sort of falls into that trap a little bit.
24:36
But then you've got the whole central thing of Stephen's, the
24:39
star of it, and he's and and I think that makes good use of the
24:43
fact that he's completely at sea of what's going on.
24:46
He doesn't know anything of this history.
24:48
He doesn't know what's happening.
24:50
He doesn't know where the doctor's gone.
24:52
And so it kind of works to its benefit a little bit because at
24:55
least it's still got Steve from front and centre.
24:58
I think there are a couple of historicals.
25:00
I think Marco Polo's sometimes one of them, because I think.
25:03
The main cast. It's Marco Polo's story, isn't
25:06
it? And because I think William
25:08
Russell complained going hang on, I'm one of the main stars
25:11
here. Why is Mark Eden getting?
25:13
What's he narrating all of this? Yeah, yeah, well, actually, the
25:17
Romans. Interestingly again hangs
25:19
Aladdin on it. Vicky goes, you know.
25:21
Oh well, this is all your fault, isn't it?
25:22
And he goes, what? What's come back here, child?
25:25
Why you can't accuse me of all this, you know.
25:28
But they make a joke of it there.
25:29
Whereas he's explicit it is his fault here.
25:33
And I think there's a bit of that in the gunfighters as well,
25:35
although they try to work against it because it was like
25:37
he tries to stop the gunfight at the OK Corral, but I think they
25:41
even acknowledge going he's trying to stop something that
25:43
they know happens and and. I think it's.
25:48
A little less elegant with some of the the the bit in history.
25:51
They have no part in the climax of that story at all.
25:54
It's all about the gunfight. And they try, I think there's
25:58
like, oh, we we could just write Dodo in, you know, the the the
26:01
gun scene just to kind of Lisa. She gets in trouble, yeah.
26:04
But in in terms of like concluding the story, they could
26:08
just they could be gone for. All they could, they could have
26:11
left at that point. They they they don't.
26:13
They try to give up their urgency because I know the the
26:15
doctor goes out to the Clanton's trying to stop the fight, but he
26:18
fails. But there's no drama because we,
26:20
you know, you know, the gunfight's going to happen.
26:22
So I think. But the Doctor's not just he's
26:25
not just instrumental in the climax history, he's the pivot
26:29
in which the climax of this story takes place.
26:31
Without him giving him that idea, the Whole Apart 4 can't
26:34
happen. An interesting thing because
26:37
obviously, you know, you talk about, you know, the Daleks
26:39
first, Daleks serial and there's all this thing about the
26:41
morality of using the Thales to get the the, the fluid link
26:46
back. And you know, Ian, having those,
26:48
all those great moral debates about, you know, we will not let
26:50
all these people die just so we can get away.
26:54
Flash forward three years and I'm going to build the horse and
26:58
we're going to take it in. And it's, it's almost completely
27:02
different sort of moral compass of the show possibly.
27:06
Is this because this is a comedy and therefore you know it's a
27:10
funny massacre? Well, interestingly, the new
27:13
series takes the same stance because think of Fires Pompeii,
27:17
like the Doctor, is responsible for, you know, the fall of
27:21
Pompeii. He makes that decision.
27:23
But in the new series, we examine that, we examine the
27:26
Doctor's reaction to that and the emotional consequences of
27:29
it. Whereas the show just isn't
27:31
doing that here. The Doctor's just in a sticky
27:33
situation and goes, Oh well, try this, you know, like this might
27:37
work, but like, and he's inside that horse with that army.
27:41
There's no way he doesn't know this is going to end really
27:45
badly if that horse is taken inside.
27:47
It's a bit, it's a bit like the trolley problem.
27:49
You know the the whole thing about you're in the trolley and
27:52
you go that way and kill one person or do you go that way and
27:54
kill lots of people And but you know in this situation the one
27:58
person is the Doctor himself and the the other direction is the
28:02
entire you know, the the fall of Troy and he chooses the fall of
28:06
Troy. And I think that's the thing.
28:09
It's like because he knows Troy fell, therefore it's going to
28:13
happen anyway. Therefore it's very hot.
28:15
It's very. Hot, but it wouldn't have fallen
28:17
if he hadn't have done it. But because history, but the
28:20
myth said that it did. This is yet the myths and
28:22
legends, yeah. It's.
28:23
Interesting, I think. I think if it's one of those
28:25
things, if we if you think about it too much.
28:29
Which came first, the myth or the action?
28:34
I think sometimes when it comes to certainly classic Doctor Who
28:38
and everything, it's like some of it you know, you're trying to
28:41
pull some of it apart. It it doesn't quite hold up.
28:45
I don't care. I you just enjoy the ride.
28:48
I think ultimately Donald Cotton just decided actually the Doctor
28:51
is responsible for this. Yeah, and just go with it, you
28:54
know? But he does say, doesn't he?
28:56
In the last episode, he gets a great line where his sister
29:00
Katarina, it's almost like an inverse or the beginning, where
29:03
he's very happy to step into the role of God to get himself out
29:06
of a sick situation. She calls him a God and he goes,
29:09
don't call me a God, you know, That's almost like his moment of
29:13
going I should never have gone there.
29:15
And it might well be that there might be something in the in the
29:18
physical performance in terms of because he has that
29:20
confrontation with Odysseus at the end and they get away by the
29:24
skin of their teeth. And every that there might have
29:26
been a little more in the performance that we can't see.
29:30
That would be the leaving Troy and you know, observing what
29:34
happened because there are bits where you could, you may well
29:37
have the Doctor standing out the outside, the TARDIS observing
29:41
the fall of Troy, and it might not have been, it's.
29:44
So busy that last episode, there just isn't the time.
29:47
Like, think of the Aztecs. You get that lovely moment where
29:50
he's going into the tiles and he comes out and he grabs the the,
29:55
the marriage. Yeah, yeah.
29:57
And that's a that's a wonderful bit because he could have,
30:02
because if they just left, you know very solemnly left a thing
30:06
on the side and went, that would have worked as an ending.
30:07
But the fact he just sort of almost as a comedy punchline,
30:11
sort of just steps back up and snatches it back up and it's
30:14
like that's really well done. But as you say, I think Episode
30:18
4's got so much to do here. You know what we needed, don't
30:21
you? We needed because the massacre
30:24
does examine the doctor's role at the end of that story and
30:28
Stephen condemns him for it and says, well, I've had enough.
30:31
You know, you're this cold about history.
30:33
I'm leaving. Maybe you should have said, oh,
30:38
and by the way, you know, do you remember that idea you gave to
30:42
the TRO to the Greeks a couple of weeks back?
30:46
That was a shitty thing to do as well.
30:48
And I think that's there's a there's a symptom there because
30:51
Stephen gets injured, because Terry Nation's script for Donald
30:54
Mastefan has Stephen injured at the start.
30:56
So basically in a similar way that, oh, Vicky has to be in
31:00
confined to the TARDIS at the first episode, therefore that's
31:03
why she sprains her ankle. It feels like things are kind of
31:05
operating a bit backwards because, like the next writer
31:09
said, all right, this is the status quo.
31:11
So Stephen's injured and he's delirious.
31:14
I was like, so you haven't got that opportunity in those
31:16
closing scenes where the doctor's a bit solemn.
31:18
Vicki's left to have what you get later in the massacre, which
31:22
is what did you do? It's a great scene as well.
31:27
They ice that scene, the pair of them.
31:29
They do. And again, that that
31:32
confrontation is a great missed moment.
31:36
Because it's it's probably. It's not the first time someone
31:41
takes the Doctor to task, but it is.
31:43
Thank God we can hear it David, though.
31:45
Yeah. I mean, you've got heartless
31:46
performance in that, and I think it's the one bit of adventures
31:51
in space and time that was like, because they presented him as
31:53
fumbling that speech, and I know it's.
31:56
I mean, he's his word perfect. He is.
31:59
He delivers that speech phenomenally well.
32:03
Obviously Tosh Tosh re wrote that.
32:04
Script, didn't he? He goes.
32:05
We were so nervous about giving him that speech.
32:08
He goes, and he just blew us all away.
32:10
And contrary to what people say, because there's always, you
32:13
know, in the handbooks and say, and Hartnell fluffs his line
32:16
because he gets Chesterson, Chesterson's name wrong.
32:19
God, that's the bloody running gag.
32:21
I think it was Hartnell. Put it back in and read it
32:23
through. Read somewhere.
32:24
That was Hartnell who actually put that misremembering of the
32:27
name in the. Trope They can lean on too much
32:29
in Big Finish though, I think. Like, he didn't fluff as much as
32:32
they right? It's a lazy shorthand for the
32:35
first Doctor, I think. Yeah I think there are certain
32:39
things they do as sort of lazy shorthand for the 1st and and he
32:42
he does fluff his life, but everybody fluff their lines.
32:46
So I think Max Adrian has a couple of moments where he's
32:50
stumbling over his lines a little bit.
32:52
It's But then we look at it now where everything is word
32:57
perfect. Television in the 60s is a
33:00
little more all over the place. And this is this conversation.
33:03
Conversations are word perfect, are they?
33:05
And in fact, some of the TV shows that let in some of the
33:09
interruptions and things like that, I'm like, yeah, this just
33:12
feels more naturalistic to me. And it and also when you watch
33:18
especially when they're doing some of these things and they're
33:20
doing them as live and they try not to you know do any retakes
33:23
is how sometimes they have to cover lines or they have to
33:26
bring them back. And you especially when you can
33:28
see it you can see the actors working and I get I think it's
33:34
in the black archive that or complete history.
33:39
One of them where in episode 2 Odysseus says who are you.
33:44
But he has it scripted twice and I think Hartnell goes to the
33:47
second response. So I think he imposed skip a
33:51
chunk of dialogue. Script.
33:53
And you just, you just got to keep going because if not, you'd
33:57
have to force a retake and you don't want to do that and you
33:59
just got to cover yourself. And I think there's not so much
34:03
that in Doctor Who, but in other shows of the period.
34:06
So, you know, certainly early episodes of things like The
34:08
Avengers, there's more than a couple of occasions where an
34:11
actor has dried and they have to find a way of getting them back
34:17
on script. And I think, I don't think of
34:19
any. There's nothing in The Avengers,
34:21
but I've heard that sometimes what they would do is that you
34:24
can hear PA's queuing giving a line.
34:28
I don't know any examples, but I'm sure someone told me say oh
34:30
there is oh what? Dark Shadows, which was AUS
34:35
soap, but apparently quite. I've never seen it.
34:37
But apparently that's quite notorious that someone's
34:40
forgotten the line. You can hear someone giving a
34:42
queue at times. There's a wonderful clip of
34:46
Honour Blackman doing a scene for The Avengers where the guest
34:48
actor swears in the scene and she has a very tiny reaction to
34:54
it and then she covers it and you watch and it's just so
34:58
brilliantly done. I shared that on Twitter and
35:02
everyone and again people discover that clip and it's
35:06
quite because then my notifications start going a bit
35:08
going, oh, they found the the, the fuck clip.
35:11
Yeah, because someone tried. Someone came back saying he he's
35:14
not saying fuck, he's he's didn't go.
35:16
No, no, I've watched that clip more times because, you know, I
35:19
like to be when I'm doing my research, sometimes when I
35:22
bother, it's like, no, no, I want to be sure.
35:25
We've just talked over the worst pun in doctor history.
35:28
Oh well, you said it earlier. Don't worry it.
35:30
Is it's a great. It is a It's a great
35:33
cliffhanger. It's a.
35:35
Brilliant cliffhanger because we know where this is going and.
35:39
It's like it's got. All of that inbuilt suspense and
35:42
we know a mask is coming. And it is building to it as
35:44
well. It's not just that same because
35:46
you've got the bits outside the horse, you've got them looking
35:48
up the model, which I think the model horse is fantastic.
35:51
I love that model and so there. Is a There's a photograph of it,
35:56
isn't it? In the sunshine.
35:58
Because I think they took it on location.
36:00
So it will. It won't be, you know, on the
36:03
tiny model stage, it will. It should look quite impressive.
36:07
I think they actually shot it with the model city as well.
36:10
Very little photographic evidence we have of Troy as
36:13
well. I think that that set looks.
36:15
I think this would have looked quite good.
36:17
And it's because it's the first story of the season or the
36:20
production year, so everyone should be coming in fairly fresh
36:24
and you know they've had their holiday.
36:26
This should have, this should look strong because you know,
36:29
the rescue and the Romans from the year before, which was I
36:32
think the start of the second year, they look really strong.
36:36
They hold up well. I think this, you know, the set,
36:39
the the few set photos we've got, the the model shot of the
36:42
horse, the couple of clips there's, there's just everything
36:45
pointing to This probably was really good.
36:48
What Cotton's done as well is he's there's a lot of characters
36:52
in this. It doesn't scrimp on the
36:54
characters, but through a series of very well done comic scenes,
37:01
he's got us to like all of those characters in different ways, in
37:06
ways that we recognise the sibling rivalry.
37:08
The Daddy's had enough, the brothers that squabble all these
37:12
different ways, and so he's got a swap point where we really,
37:16
really enjoy this whole cast of characters and now they're ready
37:20
for the slaughter. You're not prepared for it.
37:23
You can't. How many people would be
37:25
watching this going? They're not going to brutally.
37:27
Yeah, something's going to happen.
37:28
The dogs will intervene somehow. Wonderfully comic characters.
37:32
They're not going to get massively slow.
37:35
No, they do. And you know the the the
37:39
villain, if we, if there is a villain in the story, if it's
37:41
Odysseus, wins. Yeah, and even he we even even
37:46
though he's boorish and he's a warrior and he's violent.
37:50
He's funny. I'm sorry.
37:52
I'm talking about. No, I'm talking about dizziness.
37:56
Aren't I? IVA Salter's.
37:57
Character IVA Salter, IVA Salter.
37:59
'S Yeah, yeah, he's really funny.
38:01
He is. And he's got that weariness as
38:03
well. And we and he has that line to
38:06
the doctor in the Horse where the doctor's getting all edgy
38:10
and he's like, you're like a oh, what is it?
38:13
I'm going to find the line. I'm going to find the line
38:16
because he's such a great line. Are you talking?
38:19
About the are you talking about the orgy line?
38:22
What is it? Upon my soul, you're making me
38:24
as nervous as a back, A night at her first orgy.
38:30
It's great. Oh, it's so funny.
38:34
And it is it's a it's a sort of thing you wouldn't get now it's
38:37
the sort of thing they didn't do then it's it's just a great lie
38:43
and he's he and I have assault her because if you vote most
38:46
people have only will have seen him in in Space Museum or he's
38:51
in is he in Black Orchid or I think he's a policeman in Black
38:55
Orchid. He's got a couple of lines and I
38:58
don't think anybody really rates either of those performances.
39:00
He's not. He's the lead villain
39:02
effectively in this story, a comedic villain, and he plays
39:07
it. Spot on?
39:10
Well, I'll say who else plays it?
39:11
Spot on. And that is Donald Cotton in the
39:13
novelisation. Are you ready for Episode 3's
39:15
reading? Let's go.
39:17
Go on. OK, because, said the doctor
39:20
triumphantly, They'll think it's the graced horse of Asia come
39:24
down to save them. There was a long pause.
39:28
And just how were they expected to do that?
39:30
Asked Odysseus, having looked at the plan from every angle by
39:33
frightening away the Greek army. Because that's what it would
39:36
seem to have done, wouldn't it? Oh, sorry, I'm.
39:39
I'm Maylab. Right now, everyone of you not
39:43
required for horse constructing duty would sail away over the
39:46
horizon and only then come back once, once your horse is inside
39:51
the gates. Precisely.
39:52
Splendid. I knew you'd see it.
39:55
Well, how does it strike you? Asked the doctor, excited as he
39:59
as if he'd thought of it himself.
40:01
Now it's from Homer's point of view.
40:03
What we writers really need is absolutely watertight copyright
40:07
laws. But I don't suppose we'll ever
40:09
get them. I mean, what a nerve.
40:12
That's so funny. I, I, I, I, I just love that,
40:16
they say, Hanging the hats on it and just acknowledging the
40:19
absurdity of the whole situation.
40:23
Because it's like you've got to make it work and it's either you
40:26
ignore it and just go with it or you just go, Yes, it's this is
40:31
nonsense, it's mad, but go with it.
40:33
Because we're having fun. Well, not not too much fun,
40:37
because you know, those Greeks are going to emerge from that
40:40
horse of destruction and. We're either going to have a
40:43
massacre or an orgy. So it's Dyson.
40:46
We're deaf, but it could be fun. Sorry.
40:52
I mean, there's not many Doctor Who stories that will just
40:55
pivot. I mean, I don't know if there's
40:58
an equivalent where it goes from, you know, being one sort
41:01
of thing on tone. Because I know they have, like
41:04
they have the Tone meetings now and you can just imagine saying,
41:08
would we pivot from in the same story, from being light comedy,
41:12
human, bleak, half the half, half the guest cast are
41:17
butchered. I think there's only two other
41:19
examples. And the other one's written by
41:22
Donald Cotton and that's the Gunfighters, which has three
41:25
very funny episodes. And then a bloodbath at the
41:28
conclusion. And you see that.
41:32
I mean, you see how they're all just murdered in cold blood.
41:36
It's, it's really nasty. And the other one is, I alluded
41:40
to it earlier, the Fires of Pompeii, which for it's first
41:43
half an hour is effectively like comedy, historical, you know, TK
41:49
Maximus and all of this lots of witty lines.
41:52
And then in the last 10 minutes it gets very serious.
41:57
And that that ends in a similar way in that you've got this town
42:01
that's most of the population of horribly killed and idea but you
42:10
just wonder how. Especially because you know
42:12
what, you watch that when you're grown up and you go, this is
42:14
very good bit of drug if you're watching it as a kid and you go
42:18
in going, oh, this is quite fun and then it's like it ends
42:20
horribly and then Oh yeah, no, by the way, that that actually
42:25
happened. History bites David.
42:29
History is bloody harsh. Well, I'll tell you what, do you
42:33
fancy going to watch the spectacular death of all of
42:37
these characters we've come to know and love?
42:39
Should we find out what? What is it?
42:41
Is there a doctor in the horse?