Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Hubby/dad shoots child molester in self defense and gets jail time in TWISTED JUSTICE.

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Hubby/dad shoots child molester in self defense and gets jail time in TWISTED JUSTICE. · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace is coming to Fox Nation. I Want justice.
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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace premieres March ninth, only on
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Speaker 1: Fox Nation. A father, a dad, a union carpenter, never
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Speaker 1: been in trouble, guns down a statutory rape suspect. This
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Speaker 1: is a thirty five year old man having sex with
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Speaker 1: a fourteen year old girl. I'm talking about Norris Acostas Sanchez.
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Speaker 1: And now because this guy who manages to capture a
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Speaker 1: child rapist, a confessed child rapist, one of my homeland
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Speaker 1: security ends up facing twenty years behind bars. Crime Stories
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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace and one big people plank Road. You
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Speaker 1: can turn to him. He was what he probably did
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Speaker 1: my neighbor. The fugitive was Norris Accosta Sanchez, wanted for
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Speaker 1: sex with an underaged girl, the object of a few
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Speaker 1: top policeman hunt in the woods near Carlson's home the
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Speaker 1: day before. With the body lying on his neighbor's driveway
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Speaker 1: and cops on the way, Carlson took the phone to
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Speaker 1: speak with the operator, Sir, why did you shoot him?
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Speaker 1: He was threatening me? He is there a guy who
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Speaker 1: are too? Nancy came back to my house. He came
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Speaker 1: back to your house. A little pitch or I had
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Speaker 1: my gun already had I pulled it out, I put
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Speaker 1: it on him. I tried to get him up in
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Speaker 1: the neighbors to call a call a cop, and in
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Speaker 1: the meantime he did murk a gapeman. Carlson knew the
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Speaker 1: dead man, in fact, had befriended him when he found
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Speaker 1: him hiding in a hunting lodge out in the woods,
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Speaker 1: but became I'm horrified to learn that Acosta was wanted
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Speaker 1: for statutory rape. So the father and husband tried to
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Speaker 1: turn Acosta in twice, but he kept eluding police and escaping.
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Speaker 1: Did a man now called a vigilante gun down a
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Speaker 1: rape fugitive and end up behind bars? What happened? Let's
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Speaker 1: see what we can learn from that nine one one call,
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Speaker 1: nine one one call we got continued to roll after
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Speaker 1: police arrived the day of the shooting. When you go
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Speaker 1: out of dear David, I want your hand up showing
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Speaker 1: to everybody. I can't. Yeah, I'm not going anywhere where
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Speaker 1: to go. It's right here. Who got it? I did
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Speaker 1: they put out thinking you nowhere about you shot him?
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Speaker 1: I shot him in the drive for an arm and
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Speaker 1: then you can go. I kind of game after they
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Speaker 1: got him in the head. Dude, I'm trying to help you.
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Speaker 1: Guys nder me it happened. Don't nobody you wonder Dan
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Speaker 1: it happened. I'm gonna be okay. I'm more than nine
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Speaker 1: one one call along with CBS in New York reporter
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Speaker 1: Lou Young. What is the truth? It's hard to discern?
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Speaker 1: Is its self defense? Is it revenge? Is it vigilante justice?
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Speaker 1: Should this guy have gone to jail? I mean, it'sy grace,
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Speaker 1: this is crime stories. Thank you for being with us
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Speaker 1: with me. Renowned lawyer, former host of Street Court, attorney
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Speaker 1: for the so called vigilante David Carlson. Michael Mazzarello joining
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Speaker 1: me from New York. Ben Austro Austrian Associates. You can
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Speaker 1: find him at austra ostrar dot com. Attorney for David
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Speaker 1: Carlson as well, John Cardello, host America Talks on Newsmax TV.
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Speaker 1: Former NYPD professor forensics Jacksonville State University, author of Blood
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Speaker 1: Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Joseph Scott Morgan. Renowned psycho analyst,
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Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall from Beverly Hills. You can find her.
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Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany marshall dot com. But right now, to Susan Edelman, reporter,
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Speaker 1: investigative reporter at my favorite magazine, my favorite newspaper, New
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Speaker 1: York Post. Who is this guy, Susan Edelman is a killer?
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Speaker 1: Is he someone taking revenge? Is this vigilante? Justice? Is
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Speaker 1: it self defense? What happened? David Carlton was put into
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Speaker 1: a very tough position because he this accused rapist befriended
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Speaker 1: him and just stopped by him and terrorized for having
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Speaker 1: sex with a fourteen year old girl. And they went
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Speaker 1: to the police, but the police leaned on them to
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Speaker 1: help them catch this guy, and he gave them all
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Speaker 1: the help he could, but the police bungled every time
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Speaker 1: every attempt to arrest him. And then the angry rape
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Speaker 1: suspect bangs on his door and decides to make a
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Speaker 1: citizen's arrest with his gun, and that led to the
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Speaker 1: to the shooting. Guys, we are talking about a Now
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Speaker 1: you just heard Susan Edelman, an investigative reporter with a
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Speaker 1: New York Post say sex with a fourteen year old
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Speaker 1: under the law, there's really no such thing because at fourteen,
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Speaker 1: I mean at fourteen, you can't have consensual, consensual sex
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Speaker 1: and every jurisdiction in our country that is statutory rape.
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Speaker 1: In some jurisdictions depending on how well the victim and
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Speaker 1: how all the defendant is. If it's a fourteen year
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Speaker 1: old girl and a fifteen year old boy, it's not
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Speaker 1: going to be statutory rape. And a lot of jurisdictions,
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Speaker 1: but in most jurisdictions, quote sex unquote with a fourteen
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Speaker 1: year old is statutory rape. There's a reason. Is there
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Speaker 1: not being austra why a fourteen year old child cannot
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Speaker 1: buy a car, or buy a house, or enter into
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Speaker 1: a contractor buy a cigarett sort liquor. There's a reason
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Speaker 1: for that. Band well, anc the law in New York
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Speaker 1: State is a fourteen year old cannot consent, and in fact,
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Speaker 1: under the circumstances in which mister Acosta Sanchez took advantage
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Speaker 1: of this child, it's considered a violent crime. And he
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Speaker 1: was indicted not just a criminal complaint, but the grand
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Speaker 1: jury in Rockland County actually indicted him on two separate
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Speaker 1: counts of rape in the second degree, which is a
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Speaker 1: violent crime under our law. I want you to hear
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Speaker 1: one version of what happened. This is a guy that
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Speaker 1: heads to jail David Carlson, a husband, a father. The
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Speaker 1: so called murder victim, Nora's Acosta Sanchez, thirty five year
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Speaker 1: old suspect is a vigilante justice Should the husband dad
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Speaker 1: go to jail for life? Take a listen to our
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Speaker 1: fridge at cbsn Acosta was unarmed but reappeared after police
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Speaker 1: he's left. Carlson held him at gunpoint and says he
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Speaker 1: fired when Acosta turned on him. In court, the dead
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Speaker 1: man's mother called the way it ended cruel, vile, and
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Speaker 1: absurd of Carlson. She wondered did he want to be
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Speaker 1: a hero For his part, David Carlson said he was
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Speaker 1: panicked when it happened. He told the judge if I
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Speaker 1: could go back in time, I'd go back to October eleventh,
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Speaker 1: twenty thirteen and do something different. I took a life,
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Speaker 1: and I'm not here to make excuses. Carlson could have
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Speaker 1: gotten as much as twenty five years for a first
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Speaker 1: degree man slaughter, but the judge gave him five, the
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Speaker 1: mandatory minimum. Still, it was a sentence. No one was
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Speaker 1: satisfied with some small solace. But I'm losing my brother
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Speaker 1: for I don't know how long I believe in David.
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Speaker 1: I believe he's a good man. Rosario Acosta left without comment.
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Speaker 1: Are you satisfied? Really? Carlson's attorneys filed an appeal and
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Speaker 1: say they'll try to get him out on bail until
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Speaker 1: it's heard. Five years to renowned psychoanalyst doctor Bethany Marshall,
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Speaker 1: journey from La Doctor Bethany, I mean this morning, when
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Speaker 1: I dropped the twins off at school, I back timed it.
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Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, eight hours, eight and a half hours
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Speaker 1: till I'll see you again. That's insane. I miss you.
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Speaker 1: I can't even imagine five years, you know, doctor Bethany.
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Speaker 1: Every time I fly out for a business in LA
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Speaker 1: and sometimes get to see you, I'm constantly looking at
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Speaker 1: my phone hoping one of the twins will facetimey. I
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Speaker 1: can't stand even one night five years, and that's a
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Speaker 1: lifetime to me to be away from your family and Nancy.
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Speaker 1: He had a wife, he had two children. I mean,
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Speaker 1: this man had a full life. He was a carpenter.
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Speaker 1: This is really a simple person who served his community.
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Speaker 1: His wife made homemade bread. I read in one story,
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Speaker 1: so this is a family, doctor Bethany, Doctor Bethany, please please,
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Speaker 1: it's all I can do to take care of a cat,
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Speaker 1: a dog, a husband, two children, my mother eighty nine
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Speaker 1: years old, and two guinea pigs. And now you want
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Speaker 1: to throw in that this woman makes homemade bread, did
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Speaker 1: you have to? I mean, you remind me of that
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Speaker 1: woman at the swimming pool that made her own organic
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Speaker 1: sunscreen and I pooh pooed her And now darn it,
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Speaker 1: it caused. Sunscreen causes cancer. So you know what's next.
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Speaker 1: But can we get back off the homemade bread and
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Speaker 1: onto being away from your family for five years? We know,
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Speaker 1: in my field, we talk about trauma all the time.
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Speaker 1: You know what causes trauma, what causes mental breakdowns and
9:39
Speaker 1: forced premature separation from loved ones is one of the
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Speaker 1: major factors that causes trauma because it's something which we
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Speaker 1: are unprepared for. When we love our family, we want
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Speaker 1: to be with them. So he is separated from his
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Speaker 1: family for five years. He can't drive his kids to school,
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Speaker 1: he can't you know, intimacy with his wife. The whole
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Speaker 1: structure of the family breaks down. And remember he's already
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Speaker 1: gone through a trauma because he's been participating with police.
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Speaker 1: While this crazy guy is hiding in the woods behind
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Speaker 1: his hellips and then he goes to jail and he
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Speaker 1: doesn't have his family to support him and be there
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Speaker 1: for him, So that I would say is quite a
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Speaker 1: traumatic experience. Nancy will Actually David was granted bail pending
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Speaker 1: that appeal. Time stories with Nancy Grace arriving at court
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Speaker 1: for sentencing. David Carlson seems an unlikely vigilante. The Union
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Speaker 1: carpenter stands convicted of manslaughter and the twenty thirteen shotgun
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Speaker 1: killing a fugitive Norris Acosta Sanchez near Carlson's remote Orange
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Speaker 1: County home. Family and neighbors try to cope with the
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Speaker 1: idea he'll be heading off to prison. He was definitely remorseful,
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Speaker 1: uses the stand up guy. He would do anything for you,
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Speaker 1: just such a lovely person. In court, the judge aloud
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Speaker 1: still pictures as the victim's mother, who flew in from Spain,
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Speaker 1: delivered an impact statement. Rosario Sanchez said her life had
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Speaker 1: become a permanent internal cry. Her son, wanted for statutory rape,
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Speaker 1: eluded police twice in the woods near Carlson's home. It
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Speaker 1: was a man hunt that left Carlson and his neighbors rattled.
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Speaker 1: We're really frightened staying there that night because this guy's
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Speaker 1: on the loose, the police lost him. You're hearing our
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Speaker 1: friends at CBS in New York that was Lou Young.
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Speaker 1: The whole thing just stinks to me. And now saving
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Speaker 1: the best for last, Michael Mazzarello joining me, former host
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Speaker 1: of Street Court Attorney also along with being oustro for
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Speaker 1: David Carlson, and I'll go ahead and violate the Fifth
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Speaker 1: Amendment right to remain silent my longtime friend and colleague,
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Speaker 1: Michael Mazzarello. Okay, Michael, First of all, there's no such
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Speaker 1: thing as statutory rape, and in New York State, it's
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Speaker 1: a d violent felony. Thirty five year old had sex
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Speaker 1: with a fourteen year old multiple times. He was wanted
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Speaker 1: by Homeland Security for entering the United States with multiple passports.
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Speaker 1: Who wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait waiting. Okay, you're
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Speaker 1: talking so quickly. We can't take it all in. When
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Speaker 1: we refer to statutory rate, that is so called sex
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Speaker 1: with a minor, regardless of what New York may call it.
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Speaker 1: But what I want to hear is a coherent rendition
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Speaker 1: of the facts. As you know that, Michael, go ahead,
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Speaker 1: The prosecutor kept saying that that's why the case was
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Speaker 1: reversed and remanded. There's no such thing. It's a colloquialism.
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Speaker 1: It's a d violent felony, and that belies the whole point.
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Speaker 1: This case is a case as an example, where a
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Speaker 1: man was out on bail for six years, lived the
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Speaker 1: law abiding life, was able to feed his three beautiful children,
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Speaker 1: support his family, and the horror of the police what
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Speaker 1: they did to this man should be an example of
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Speaker 1: every law school throughout the United States. And make no
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Speaker 1: mistake about it, Nancy, he was wanted. He was indicted
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Speaker 1: and wanted by RAMAPO for the deep violent felony rape
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Speaker 1: charge and tried to elude police. In fact, as a
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Speaker 1: tape recorded conversations between the deceased and the grandmother set
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Speaker 1: up by the police, where he said, what's the problem
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Speaker 1: with having sex with a fourteen year old? You know,
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Speaker 1: in my country it's normal. I'm not abiding by the
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Speaker 1: laws of the United States. I'm never going to jail.
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Speaker 1: I'm not going to jail. I'm never going to jail.
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Speaker 1: You know what they do with people like me in jail.
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Speaker 1: He befriends a great couple, Dave Carson and his wife
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Speaker 1: they feed him, they give him work. He lied to
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Speaker 1: him about his name, and then Boom told him that
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Speaker 1: I'm wanted for a rape. What did the police do?
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Speaker 1: They set this man up, get in the car, put
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Speaker 1: him in the car. We'll pull you over. They don't
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Speaker 1: show up. What happened There was a shift chain. Sorry,
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Speaker 1: next day, do it again. They pull the suspect over
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Speaker 1: and I hope the police officers listening to the station.
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Speaker 1: You know you have any identification? No, where do you live?
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Speaker 1: Right down the road. They put him in the back
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Speaker 1: of the cop car, uncuffed. They take him to a
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Speaker 1: location where he said he lived, where he didn't. They
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Speaker 1: opened the car. He shoves and pushs a police officer
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Speaker 1: out of the way, runs and escapes down the hill.
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Speaker 1: No pursuit. Why didn't you pursue him? We had no
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Speaker 1: probable cause. Once they found out who he was, they
14:46
Speaker 1: set up a swap team unit of final know ben
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Speaker 1: how many guys were there, twenty five thirty helicopters, boats.
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Speaker 1: They searched everywhere for this guy. And then what they do.
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Speaker 1: They told my client, he has our cell phone, Ubercolus.
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Speaker 1: If you see the guy. He wakes up the next morning.
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Speaker 1: The guy's fare, looking dishelved and mad. David Carson didn't
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Speaker 1: kill him on the spot. He's pointed the shotgun at
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Speaker 1: him and walked him eight hundred feet. He went to
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Speaker 1: the first house, nobody's home. Let go a shot, No
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Speaker 1: one listened. Went to the second house, let go another shot.
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Speaker 1: Nobody was listening. He had four in the barrel. Two
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Speaker 1: left Nancy. He goes a total of eight hundred feet
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Speaker 1: trying to turn this man in and gets on the
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Speaker 1: call nine one one when Norris a car Sanchez went
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Speaker 1: for it and then he just shot him. It's a
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Speaker 1: debacle of the police department unparalleled in my thirty two
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Speaker 1: years forty six year old dad killed a wanted child
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Speaker 1: rapist and then faced twenty years behind bars. I'm talking
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Speaker 1: about David Carlson, forty six years old, who shoots down
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Speaker 1: Norris acoust To Sanchez, thirty five. Acosta. Sanchez had confessed
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Speaker 1: to sleeping with a fourteen year old girl. Carlson twice
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Speaker 1: tried to have acost Of Sanchez arrested after he confessed.
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Speaker 1: The two attempts and a third by a swat team,
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Speaker 1: all unsuccessful. Carlson caught acost Of Sanchez himself and was
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Speaker 1: taking him to the police, and while doing so, he
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Speaker 1: lunged at Carlson, who shot him in self defense. He
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Speaker 1: goes on trial for shooting a wanted child rapist who
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Speaker 1: wandered onto his property and then admitted to repeated sex
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Speaker 1: acts with a fourteen year old girl. Not only that,
16:44
Speaker 1: he's wanted by Homeland Security. Now what I don't get
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Speaker 1: day in day out, Joseph Scott, Morgan forensics expert, Day
16:52
Speaker 1: in day out, you're a death investigator. You have to
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Speaker 1: go to court as much as I did as a prosecutor.
16:58
Speaker 1: I see purps, and I read police reports, and I
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Speaker 1: see how so many defendants get away. We're always asked, Hey,
17:07
Speaker 1: you ever convected an innocent person? I'm like, hblel, No,
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Speaker 1: I can't get all the guilty people. There's not enough
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Speaker 1: police and detectives and ages to get the guilty people. No.
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Speaker 1: And here, Joe Scott, have you ever seen a guy
17:26
Speaker 1: trying to affect an arrest of a child rapist pulls
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Speaker 1: a gun and now he's going to jail for twenty years.
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Speaker 1: I don't get it as completely bass Ackwards. Yeah, it
17:37
Speaker 1: really is, Nancy. And here's the reality this guy's faced with.
17:42
Speaker 1: He's having to, you know, to literally step in the
17:46
Speaker 1: gap and do the job that the original prosecutors should
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Speaker 1: have done with this person, to dispose of this fellow
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Speaker 1: and dispose of this case in an appropriate manner. And now,
17:57
Speaker 1: as a result of you know, the lack of attention
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Speaker 1: to detail, their carelessness, they've destroyed this poor man's life.
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Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, Nancy, when I began to read
18:08
Speaker 1: the brief on this case, my mind was blown. I
18:11
Speaker 1: had not heard of this case, and it's amazing. We
18:14
Speaker 1: see so much stuff that comes through the news nowadays,
18:16
Speaker 1: it's just idol chatter. This particular case rocked me to
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Speaker 1: my core because, you know, there but for the grace
18:23
Speaker 1: of God, go I or anybody else that's put into
18:26
Speaker 1: this position. And now his life is in shambles, a shambles. Hey,
18:31
Speaker 1: Michael Mazzarello, tell me why it was the guy? Now
18:35
Speaker 1: he had a warrant for him for as I say,
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Speaker 1: statutory rape sex with a fourteen year old child. You
18:44
Speaker 1: call it a I think you said a classdief violent felony.
18:48
Speaker 1: You say Tomato, I say Tomato. Ben Austro Austro and Associates,
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Speaker 1: attorney for David Carlson. This guy not only wanted for
18:57
Speaker 1: forcing himself on a fourteen year old girl in a
19:00
Speaker 1: nearby town, also wanted by Homeland Security for what well.
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Speaker 1: He had entered the country legally, but he had overstayed
19:09
Speaker 1: his visa, had applied for status based upon his heritage.
19:16
Speaker 1: He had family members that had lived in Cuba, lived
19:20
Speaker 1: in Europe, and he was denied status here and he overstayed,
19:27
Speaker 1: so he was actually in the country illegally at the time. That,
19:32
Speaker 1: of course, has nothing to do with the actual underlying
19:36
Speaker 1: criminal conduct. But I think the at the heart of
19:40
Speaker 1: this case is the fact that David Carlson had him
19:44
Speaker 1: at the end of a gun. There's one gun and
19:47
Speaker 1: two people, and if mister Sanchez is taking action by
19:54
Speaker 1: lunging towards Carlson, I don't think it leaves Carlson with
19:58
Speaker 1: much of a choice. You either use the guy or
20:00
Speaker 1: be prepared to lose the gun, and in this particular case,
20:05
Speaker 1: tragically it resulted in the loss of life. But I
20:08
Speaker 1: think Carlson's conduct, at least under the law in New York,
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Speaker 1: and as Judge Freehill find it found at the retrial,
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Speaker 1: found David's conduct to be justified and if it's justified
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Speaker 1: that's our word in New York State for self defense,
20:26
Speaker 1: then that based is what the judge based the acquittal upon.
20:41
Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace. The hunt for thirty five
20:46
Speaker 1: year old Morris Acosta Sanchez began yesterday when a squad
20:49
Speaker 1: of cops from Orange County he tried to serve as
20:51
Speaker 1: search warrant on the Deer Park cabin where the outlaw
20:54
Speaker 1: had been hiding. Acosta Sanchez was wanted on two fenalt
20:57
Speaker 1: accounts of second degree rape, but he wasn't going easily
21:01
Speaker 1: from the woods. The accused rapist took off. A pursuit
21:06
Speaker 1: happened last night where the guy ran off and actually
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Speaker 1: swam across the Ryo Reservoir into the next town. Somehow,
21:14
Speaker 1: with law enforcement chasing, Acosta Sanchez was able to make
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Speaker 1: it all the way across the reservoir into Lumberland, Sullivan County.
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Speaker 1: The rape suspect had apparently eluded police. After the nighttime escape.
21:26
Speaker 1: Investigators say the wanted suspect did something inexplicable. He returned
21:30
Speaker 1: to the woods from which he had just fled. Was
21:33
Speaker 1: probably a good place for this guy to hide out,
21:36
Speaker 1: or maybe he thought that this time though a Costa.
21:38
Speaker 1: Sanchez was greeted not by police, but by a neighbor
21:42
Speaker 1: in the rural community. Details are unclear as to how
21:44
Speaker 1: the confrontation unfolded, but investigators say that neighbor killed the
21:48
Speaker 1: rape suspect, shooting him. How in the hay did a
21:51
Speaker 1: forty six year old husband and father of three end
21:55
Speaker 1: up facing twenty years behind bars, accused of a violent
22:02
Speaker 1: vigilante justice killing this guy? David Carlson shoots an alleged
22:09
Speaker 1: child rapist goes on trial for murder. Now think about it,
22:14
Speaker 1: when you don't know a horse, look at his track
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Speaker 1: record with me, Susan Edelman reported New York Post. Susan,
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Speaker 1: the cops had tried, unsuccessfully several times to get this guy,
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Speaker 1: Norris Accosta Sanchez. Now, what do you if he would
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Speaker 1: do that with the cops, a group of cops chasing him.
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Speaker 1: What do you think he would do with David Carlson
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Speaker 1: who was trying to turn him in. There was no
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Speaker 1: question that he was desperate and he did not want
22:41
Speaker 1: to go to jail. And that's what was in David
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Speaker 1: Carlson's mind, that this guy was desperate and would do
22:50
Speaker 1: anything to escape. I wanted to also note that the
22:53
Speaker 1: reason he didn't get into the United States, or he
22:56
Speaker 1: wasn't given a visa, was because he had some kind
22:59
Speaker 1: of crime of moral turpitude on his record, which I
23:03
Speaker 1: was never able to find out what that was. You know,
23:06
Speaker 1: I also know that on several occasions police were actually
23:09
Speaker 1: recruiting Carlson. It's not like he sat around and hatched
23:15
Speaker 1: this all up all by himself. You know, I'm very
23:19
Speaker 1: curious to Michael Mazzarello, former Host Street court attorney for
23:23
Speaker 1: David Carlson, along with Ben Austro. Michael, at that moment
23:28
Speaker 1: when it was announced in court he's guilty, He's going
23:34
Speaker 1: to jail. That must have been like a kick in
23:38
Speaker 1: the stomach, a kick in the teeth for David Carlson.
23:42
Speaker 1: It was devastating to all of us. It was, as
23:45
Speaker 1: Ben always says, there was no winners, but it was devastating.
23:49
Speaker 1: We did the trial pro bono. Ben Astro is one
23:52
Speaker 1: of the best criminal defense attorneys in the Northeast car
23:56
Speaker 1: We pay he paid for all the transcripts. He you know,
23:59
Speaker 1: dais for the trial. It was devastating. It was devastating
24:02
Speaker 1: to his three children, all his family members. I don't
24:08
Speaker 1: know what else to say, Nancy, it was it's very
24:12
Speaker 1: difficult to pick a jury. And you know I always
24:17
Speaker 1: say I don't argue with the jury. They do what
24:19
Speaker 1: they think is right. So I do. I argue with
24:22
Speaker 1: the jury all the time. I mean, they're just regular
24:25
Speaker 1: people like us, and sometimes they can be wrong. Bam,
24:29
Speaker 1: there I said it, Ben Ostra, what was that moment? Like?
24:33
Speaker 1: In court, you guys go to the mat pro bono,
24:36
Speaker 1: which means for free to represent this guy, David Carlson, husband, father,
24:42
Speaker 1: union carpenter. He is the one that gets the bad guy,
24:47
Speaker 1: the child rapist, and now he is facing twenty years
24:52
Speaker 1: behind bars. When you hear guilty in the courtroom, what
24:57
Speaker 1: was that moment like? Well, actually, Nancy, the jury first
25:00
Speaker 1: announced a not guilty verdict on murder in the second degree,
25:04
Speaker 1: so are you know we were buoyed by that, and
25:08
Speaker 1: moments later they convicted him after seven days of deliberations
25:14
Speaker 1: of manslaughter in the first degree. We were obviously devastated,
25:19
Speaker 1: but we had always hoped that we would vindicate David,
25:25
Speaker 1: and yet thankfully he was out on bail pending appeal,
25:30
Speaker 1: and the Second Department of the Appellate Division reversed that
25:34
Speaker 1: conviction and gave us an opportunity at a retrial. But
25:38
Speaker 1: it was a devastating moment to hear that jury find
25:43
Speaker 1: our client and find David guilty. We believed he had
25:47
Speaker 1: been enlisted by police in one quarter. He had great
25:51
Speaker 1: support from his neighbors. They posted his bail. David was
25:55
Speaker 1: out on one hundred thousand dollars bail that was increased
25:59
Speaker 1: to five thousand dollars on appeal, and in each instance
26:03
Speaker 1: it was his neighbors and friends who posted the collateral
26:07
Speaker 1: and paid the bonding company. David didn't have those resources.
26:11
Speaker 1: You know, I want to talk about the actual wound.
26:14
Speaker 1: A forensic pathologist describing the fatal gunshot wounds at trial.
26:19
Speaker 1: I know that there were two wounds, one entering his
26:23
Speaker 1: left arm about two inches below the shoulder, exiting from
26:26
Speaker 1: the back. That would indicate self defense. To me's not
26:30
Speaker 1: like you got shot in the back. The entry is
26:35
Speaker 1: left arm two inches below the shoulder, it exits from
26:38
Speaker 1: the back of the arm. That's consistent with self defense.
26:41
Speaker 1: The fatal wound, which entered the left side of his
26:44
Speaker 1: head through the ear, let me go to death. Investigator
26:49
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics Jacksonville State University and author
26:53
Speaker 1: of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, Joe Scott Morgan,
26:57
Speaker 1: please analyze the FEND findings regarding cod cause of death.
27:02
Speaker 1: As you were mentioning Nancy, there is a shot that
27:06
Speaker 1: passes through his arm, and if we begin to piece
27:10
Speaker 1: this together, relative to the description that David had given
27:14
Speaker 1: at the time, he essentially tried to render this guy
27:19
Speaker 1: to a point where he couldn't approach him anymore. Remember
27:22
Speaker 1: he's talking about that this guy is advancing on him.
27:25
Speaker 1: He senses danger on the part of the fugitive and
27:29
Speaker 1: he fires at him just to kind of knock him down.
27:32
Speaker 1: And can you imagine being in these circumstances you're faced
27:36
Speaker 1: with this. It's not like this guy has been trained
27:38
Speaker 1: in escalation of force or anything like the police are.
27:41
Speaker 1: It's a different standard for the general public. He's holding
27:45
Speaker 1: a shotgun on this guy and the guy utters, literally
27:48
Speaker 1: utters an expletive at him, rises to his feet, and
27:52
Speaker 1: then begins to advance on him again. Adrenaline's pumping, he
27:57
Speaker 1: fires again and literally literally drops this guy right where
28:02
Speaker 1: he stands. The interesting part, though, and I think that
28:05
Speaker 1: this is probably what the jury was looking at they're
28:08
Speaker 1: wanting to They're probably trying to understand, you know, how,
28:13
Speaker 1: how exactly is this guy killed? If he shot in
28:16
Speaker 1: the left side of the head. Was this in their
28:18
Speaker 1: mind at least maybe an execution. You've already shot him once.
28:22
Speaker 1: Why didn't you let it go at that? And I
28:24
Speaker 1: think that that's probably what turned to tide against him
28:27
Speaker 1: in this case. I want to go to John Cardillo,
28:29
Speaker 1: host of America Talks on Newsmax TV and former nyp
28:35
Speaker 1: D John Cardillo, you know how much I hate attacking police.
28:41
Speaker 1: But when it's the truth, it's the truth. There's no
28:44
Speaker 1: way around it. Why would police recruit a civilian? David
28:48
Speaker 1: carl said, why excuse me. I was speaking to a
28:52
Speaker 1: bunch of police officers and active police officers, Nancy, and
28:55
Speaker 1: they were all shaking their heads. Luck when we look
28:57
Speaker 1: at this as law enforcement people, this man's a hero.
29:02
Speaker 1: David Carlson is an absolute hero. Now is it uncommon
29:06
Speaker 1: for small agencies without the manpower the NYPD, the LAPD
29:10
Speaker 1: Chicago to sometimes enlist people to assist them. No, it's not.
29:17
Speaker 1: But to me and every other cop I spoke to
29:19
Speaker 1: about this, that strength in David Carlson's case even further
29:23
Speaker 1: when he held that guy at gunpoint, this rapist, and
29:26
Speaker 1: I agree with the other guest, there is no statutory
29:29
Speaker 1: rape in New York. This guy is a violent predatory
29:32
Speaker 1: child rapist. When he was holding him at gunpoint, he
29:36
Speaker 1: wasn't just some random homeowner. He was now an agent
29:38
Speaker 1: of the government. He was doing this because the police
29:42
Speaker 1: asked him to help. He did all he could. This
29:45
Speaker 1: guy did all he could to summon help, to get
29:48
Speaker 1: a neighbor, somebody to call the police in a rural
29:51
Speaker 1: area where police responds times were probably twenty thirty minutes.
29:55
Speaker 1: And when this violent felon, violent rapist GUYO came into
29:59
Speaker 1: the country illegally and laughed at our laws and went
30:02
Speaker 1: on to rape children and mocked law enforcement turned on him.
30:07
Speaker 1: To me, to many in law enforcement, I don't care
30:09
Speaker 1: if he shot the guy once or he emptied that
30:12
Speaker 1: magazine of shotgun shells on him. The bad guy deserved it.
30:15
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter the minute you make the minute you
30:19
Speaker 1: make the determination to use deadly force. Use deadly force
30:23
Speaker 1: that means you feel your life and the lives of
30:25
Speaker 1: other innocence are in danger, and you shoot until you
30:27
Speaker 1: are sure that threat is stopped. This guy should be
30:30
Speaker 1: given a medal, an acquittal, and an apology from New
30:33
Speaker 1: York State. This case, to me, is an absolute travesty
30:36
Speaker 1: of justice. Guys, Nancy Chris here we are heading straight
30:47
Speaker 1: into breaking crime and justice news. But first, how can't
30:51
Speaker 1: you keep yourself and your children safe? I have investigated
30:58
Speaker 1: and prosecuted literally thousands of felony cases. I have covered
31:04
Speaker 1: literally thousands of cases of missing people, adults and children,
31:09
Speaker 1: unsolved homicides, violent crimes. After all the cases, after speaking
31:16
Speaker 1: to all the victims, all the police, all the witnesses
31:20
Speaker 1: over years, what can we do about it? I don't
31:25
Speaker 1: want to just sit back and report on it. I
31:28
Speaker 1: want to take action. And I know you must feel
31:31
Speaker 1: the same way. You don't want to just hear about crime.
31:33
Speaker 1: You want to do something about it and do something
31:36
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32:15
Speaker 1: Exploited Children Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Carlson even tried
32:29
Speaker 1: several times to help police capture Acosta Sanchez just days
32:33
Speaker 1: before the shooting last October, but when things went southeas says,
32:37
Speaker 1: Acosta Sanchez showed up to his home angry. Carlson then
32:41
Speaker 1: grabbed his gun and began escorting the fugitive to a
32:43
Speaker 1: neighbor's house to call police. A nearby surveillance camera captured
32:47
Speaker 1: the two walking, but what happens next is out of frame.
32:50
Speaker 1: According to Carlson, Acosta Sanchez lunged repeatedly, forcing him to
32:54
Speaker 1: fire in self defense. Dave essentially was an agent for
32:58
Speaker 1: the police in trying to a system. Carlson's claim of
33:01
Speaker 1: self defense was never related to a grand jury Fursday.
33:05
Speaker 1: The District Attorney's office now has the option to appeal
33:08
Speaker 1: the case. In the meantime, Carlson has a great deal
33:10
Speaker 1: of support and remains hopeful. I'm a little worried, but
33:15
Speaker 1: I do have faith in our g DSTAL system. You're
33:17
Speaker 1: hearing our friends at ABC. I witnessed seven News that
33:20
Speaker 1: was reporter A. J. Ross, Well, he had misplaced faith
33:24
Speaker 1: because this guy who manages to capture a child rapist,
33:29
Speaker 1: a confessed child rapist, one of my homeland security ends
33:34
Speaker 1: up facing twenty years behind bars. Straight out to Susan Edelman,
33:40
Speaker 1: reporter with the New York Post, as Susan, isn't it
33:43
Speaker 1: true that once he eluded cops by basically swimming across
33:47
Speaker 1: a body of water, he comes back to David Carlson's house,
33:51
Speaker 1: starts banging on the door, angry, furious, And that's when
33:56
Speaker 1: the whole thing played out. Susan Edelman, His wife and
33:59
Speaker 1: children had we're staying with a neighbor because they were terrified.
34:03
Speaker 1: The whole community was terrified of this guy, and that
34:06
Speaker 1: left the responsibility to take care of things on David Carlson.
34:11
Speaker 1: And he decided, as he told a cost of that minute,
34:15
Speaker 1: he goes with me, pulled out the shotgun, he said,
34:18
Speaker 1: this ends today. He was fed up with the police
34:22
Speaker 1: to arrest the guy after another and he had gotten away,
34:25
Speaker 1: so running down creeks, swimming over reservoirs, and now he
34:31
Speaker 1: was back banging on the door, and he decided, Hey,
34:34
Speaker 1: I'm going to do something about this now. And he
34:37
Speaker 1: did not want to kill him, he said, he has,
34:39
Speaker 1: he said immediately afterwards, I did not want to kill him.
34:43
Speaker 1: I did not want to shoot him, but he lunged it.
34:47
Speaker 1: You know, Susan Edelman joining me from the New York Post,
34:50
Speaker 1: you just told me a fact. I didn't know that
34:52
Speaker 1: the community was so afraid of this guy, that Carlson
34:56
Speaker 1: had sent away his wife and children. And now I
35:00
Speaker 1: was just reading the article about it in the New
35:03
Speaker 1: York Post that you helped write. Susan Edelman. He loses
35:08
Speaker 1: everything after this court battle. He's lost his wife, he's
35:14
Speaker 1: lost his home, He's lost everything. Susan, what happened, Well,
35:20
Speaker 1: it's more than just breaking up with his family, his mind.
35:24
Speaker 1: He's lost his peace of mind. He's gonna he's gonna
35:28
Speaker 1: have to live for the rest of his life knowing
35:30
Speaker 1: that he took a life that he did not want
35:32
Speaker 1: to take, that he killed someone, and he's going to
35:36
Speaker 1: be torn over whether he should have He told police afterwards,
35:39
Speaker 1: maybe I should have stopped after the first be okay
35:44
Speaker 1: thing with this and tormented and haunted by this for
35:47
Speaker 1: the rest of his life and so and he is
35:50
Speaker 1: undergoing therapy for post traumatic stress syndrome, So it's he's
35:55
Speaker 1: going to have to take a long time to heal
35:57
Speaker 1: from this. Take a listener. Friends at ABC Eyewitnessed seven
36:01
Speaker 1: News AJ Ross He's accused of taking the law into
36:03
Speaker 1: his own hands against an alleged rapist, but David Carlson
36:06
Speaker 1: says he fired his gun in self defense, an important
36:10
Speaker 1: detail that was somehow left out of grand jury testimony,
36:13
Speaker 1: and one of many details he shared with me here tonight,
36:16
Speaker 1: a day after an Orange County judge dismissed his murder case,
36:20
Speaker 1: David Carlson and his attorney opened up about new details
36:24
Speaker 1: never before heard by grand jury jurors inside this food
36:27
Speaker 1: pantry where he regularly volunteers. I didn't do this out
36:31
Speaker 1: of being a vigil auntie or trying to take the
36:34
Speaker 1: law into my own hands. It was just an unfortunate
36:37
Speaker 1: event that ended in a tragedy. Carlson was accused of
36:40
Speaker 1: shooting and killing Norris Acosta Sanchez, an alleged rapist on
36:45
Speaker 1: the run hiding out next door to his family. All
36:48
Speaker 1: the families in this area were really very afraid that
36:52
Speaker 1: there was a fugitive at large. Wait a minute. Michael Mazzarelli,
36:55
Speaker 1: former Huse Street court attorney for David Carlson. So he's
36:58
Speaker 1: a dad, he's a husband, has been. He's a union carpenter.
37:02
Speaker 1: You know, my dad was in the Union with the railroad.
37:05
Speaker 1: He volunteers at a food pantry and he was charged
37:10
Speaker 1: with murder. Michael, how did he end up losing his
37:13
Speaker 1: home and his family, Nancy. He had a beautiful house
37:18
Speaker 1: and actually he was a farmer, a lot of He
37:21
Speaker 1: had horses, chickens, the goats, and the stress of the trial,
37:26
Speaker 1: six years of making six years verses of court appearances.
37:32
Speaker 1: He tried to maintain a steady job and he couldn't
37:36
Speaker 1: pay the mortgage anymore, and everything collapsed on him. It's
37:40
Speaker 1: a mental situation that few people that understand unless you
37:45
Speaker 1: go through a total horror. Doctor Bethany Marshall, Psychoanas joining
37:49
Speaker 1: us out of la at Doctor Bethany Marshall dot com.
37:53
Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany, I can't remember what they all are, but
37:57
Speaker 1: there are either seven or ten major things that happen
38:02
Speaker 1: in your life that can throw people into depression, make
38:06
Speaker 1: them suicidal, break up your marriage just I think one
38:09
Speaker 1: is divorce. One is a death, their loss of a child,
38:15
Speaker 1: loss of a spouse. This sounds like it to me.
38:18
Speaker 1: This guy went through Definitely he has post traumatic stress.
38:22
Speaker 1: This is so traumatic, Nancy. Remember this fugitive and I
38:26
Speaker 1: didn't realize this until I was listening to the panel
38:28
Speaker 1: of the story came together in my mind. Not only
38:31
Speaker 1: did this fugitive stalk and perpetrate sex crimes against a
38:37
Speaker 1: fourteen year old, but then he stalked Carlson and stalked
38:41
Speaker 1: the community. He repeated the offending pattern, and so Carlson
38:47
Speaker 1: ended up being another victim of this fugitive. They took
38:51
Speaker 1: him in, they were kind to him, they find out
38:53
Speaker 1: he's a child molester, they no longer befriend him, and
38:58
Speaker 1: then he starts to become threatening towards the family in
39:00
Speaker 1: the community. The police should never, ever, ever have enlisted
39:04
Speaker 1: Carlson's support because he was a victim in this whole situation.
39:08
Speaker 1: In terms of post traumatic stress, there's a new new
39:11
Speaker 1: definition coming out of the field of the neurosciences, which
39:15
Speaker 1: is that trauma is when we experience something in our
39:18
Speaker 1: lives for which there's no prior learning. Meaning let's say
39:22
Speaker 1: you your dog dies, or your spouse break you know
39:25
Speaker 1: it decides to divorce you. There is some prior learning
39:28
Speaker 1: because we all experience loss throughout the lifespan, so we
39:31
Speaker 1: know how every time we have a loss prior learning
39:35
Speaker 1: for coping with being stalked, your family, being threatened, being
39:39
Speaker 1: enlisted by the police, killing somebody inadvertently, going through a
39:44
Speaker 1: protracted legal proceeding, losing everything, losing your family, finally being freed,
39:50
Speaker 1: And as Carlson said, he keeps looking over his shoulder
39:54
Speaker 1: thinking that the judge and the court system is going
39:58
Speaker 1: to say, oh, I made a mistake. You have to
39:59
Speaker 1: come back to jail. So now he has the fear
40:02
Speaker 1: of being retraumatized and be victimized, and he's going to
40:05
Speaker 1: have that for the rest of his life. This guy,
40:07
Speaker 1: David Carlson, was fishing with pale when a guy in
40:11
Speaker 1: shorts pops out of the woods and says, hey, I'm Daniel.
40:15
Speaker 1: He was the caretaker of a vacant cabin next to
40:18
Speaker 1: Carlson's home in upstate New York. Carlson befriended the guy,
40:25
Speaker 1: gave him odd jobs in exchange for food his wife's
40:29
Speaker 1: homemade bread. There I sat at Bethany just for you.
40:34
Speaker 1: Long story short. One night, while they're out sitting outside
40:40
Speaker 1: around a campfire, this guy that we now know to
40:43
Speaker 1: be Norris Accosta. Sanchez confides his real name and that
40:48
Speaker 1: he was wanted for sex with a little girl in Ramapo,
40:54
Speaker 1: New York. He grumbled the charges were unfair. He called
41:00
Speaker 1: the little girl quote that little bitch. And I am
41:06
Speaker 1: recounting exactly a quote from Susan Edelman that she wrote
41:12
Speaker 1: in one of her mini mini articles in the New
41:14
Speaker 1: York Post. Did you hear that John Cardilo that little bit?
41:19
Speaker 1: That's what he called a little girl. Oh, he's a
41:22
Speaker 1: reprehensible guy. And but let's I want the listeners to
41:25
Speaker 1: understand something here, and how devastating this is. Every analysis
41:30
Speaker 1: we just heard from all your experts is spot on.
41:32
Speaker 1: But I've been doing a lot of reports on criminal
41:35
Speaker 1: justice reform and when a guy like David Carlson, and
41:38
Speaker 1: this blew my mind. When a guy like David Carlson
41:41
Speaker 1: is convicted and he gets a felony conviction, and if
41:44
Speaker 1: he's retried and they do it again, even if he
41:47
Speaker 1: buys some act of God, he's allowed out of jail
41:49
Speaker 1: in thirty days with that felony conviction. In the United States,
41:53
Speaker 1: there are forty four thousand collateral consequences. People don't think
41:59
Speaker 1: about that. He can't be licensed to even be a barber.
42:03
Speaker 1: He basically can't get a credit card, can't rent an apartment.
42:07
Speaker 1: Most banks won't give him a lease or a loan
42:10
Speaker 1: on a vehicle. Forty four thousand collateral consequences for helping
42:14
Speaker 1: the police and taking a violent predatory child rapist out
42:18
Speaker 1: of the equation. And I just hope juries when they
42:22
Speaker 1: look at these self defense cases, they don't get sanctimonious
42:24
Speaker 1: and say, Wow, he's not the police, he shouldn't be
42:28
Speaker 1: doing that. I hope they understand what they're really really
42:30
Speaker 1: doing with these decisions, because this is a good guy.
42:34
Speaker 1: This is a decent, hard working family man. They destroyed
42:37
Speaker 1: this man's life, and god forbid they do it to
42:40
Speaker 1: him again, and all it takes Nancy, You know, this
42:42
Speaker 1: is one over zealous prosecutor who's trying to make a
42:46
Speaker 1: name for themselves and victimizing him over again. Forty four
42:50
Speaker 1: thousand collateral consequences. Look, the cops should never have arrested him.
42:55
Speaker 1: I can tell you this. If this for me and
42:57
Speaker 1: my squad, I worked the gun union in the Bronx
43:00
Speaker 1: after real bad guys, because I've done it, we would
43:02
Speaker 1: have been arguing with the district attorney, saying, you put
43:05
Speaker 1: us on the stand, we're gonna call him a hero.
43:07
Speaker 1: We're gonna blow your taste. The final thought to Ben
43:09
Speaker 1: Ostrogo ahead, Ben Nancy. I believe ultimately David's faith in
43:15
Speaker 1: the criminal justice system was vindicated. Although it took six years,
43:20
Speaker 1: Judge Freehill did find him not guilty and freed him.
43:24
Speaker 1: It's regrettable that it took as long as it did,
43:27
Speaker 1: but thanks to people like Michael, and we had other
43:30
Speaker 1: people on the defense team, former NYPD officer Vincecato who
43:35
Speaker 1: did some investigative work, of Rebecca Lenkowski, Marissa Tooey, David Wallace.
43:42
Speaker 1: It was a joint effort and took us six years
43:46
Speaker 1: and three months, but it was ultimately we did vindicate
43:49
Speaker 1: David's faith in the criminal justice system, from that first
43:52
Speaker 1: day when he went to report the fact that there
43:56
Speaker 1: was a confessed rapist in the woods to the January
44:01
Speaker 1: sixteenth when Judge free Hill announced the verdict. Certainly, it
44:06
Speaker 1: was a team effort and we couldn't have done it
44:09
Speaker 1: if we hadn't had a stand up guy like David
44:12
Speaker 1: Carlson as our client. So it's been quite an experience
44:15
Speaker 1: for all of us, and I believe at the end
44:17
Speaker 1: of the day, despite a myriad of mistakes by police
44:25
Speaker 1: in the grand jury at trial leading to the reversal,
44:29
Speaker 1: leading to the dismissal of an indictment, we ultimately got
44:32
Speaker 1: a hard for it, not guilty verdict for David, and
44:36
Speaker 1: for that it's probably one of the most rewarding events
44:41
Speaker 1: in my career and two. Michael Mazzarello, attorney for David
44:47
Speaker 1: Carlson Michael Dancy. It's thirty one years of picking juries
44:52
Speaker 1: and my faith in the system was rattled. Rattled because
44:57
Speaker 1: I couldn't believe that police officer could get on the
45:01
Speaker 1: stand and tell wild tales. I couldn't believe that police
45:04
Speaker 1: officers altered and changed documents two years after the fact.
45:09
Speaker 1: I couldn't believe that police officers that I know and
45:12
Speaker 1: love from being insistent DA would not just come in
45:16
Speaker 1: and tell the truth. I was rattled. Ben's right. My
45:20
Speaker 1: faith in the system was restored, but I'm still rattled.
45:24
Speaker 1: I still can't believe that these people that got on
45:26
Speaker 1: the stand and just lied law enforcement, they got promotions,
45:31
Speaker 1: they got raises, and no ramifications whatsoever. I'm very happy
45:37
Speaker 1: for David. I think he is a simpleton that was
45:40
Speaker 1: put in the position that no person should ever ever
45:45
Speaker 1: be put in. And I just pray to God, Nancy,
45:48
Speaker 1: that you know, when I looked at Michael and Mario
45:50
Speaker 1: every night and I thought of David's children, I just
45:54
Speaker 1: thank god Judge Freehill did what he did. It was
45:57
Speaker 1: quite a surprise and quite a hard for victory. And
46:01
Speaker 1: I have to thank Ben for putting out a substantial
46:04
Speaker 1: amount of money, expertise, and you know, the first trial, Nancy,
46:08
Speaker 1: was seven days of good deliberations. It was stressed beyond belief,
46:13
Speaker 1: but it worked out, so we're happy. Another episode in
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Speaker 1: American Justice. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off goodbye friend,