Latest / Deep Trope Fantasy & Romance Podcast / The Silversmith Deep Dive (Ch 31–End +Bonus Gavin POVs): Ending Recap & Book 2 Theories
Transcript
- speaker-1: Welcome to Deep Trope, where we go deep into fantasy and romance books. One trope at a time. I'm Rachel, romantic theorist. speaker-0: Kate, lover of all things stark and spicy. speaker-1: And today is the fourth and final episode in our Deep Dive of the Silversmith by LJ Claren. This episode will cover chapters thirty one through the end of the book, plus bonus chapters from the perspective of two people who have read the full book. So that means spoilers. If you don't know the name of Gavin's wife, pause the podcast and come back once you've finished reading. speaker-0: And we have some very exciting news today. This deep dive has left us with so many burning questions, and we're going to get to ask LJ Claren herself when she joins us on the podcast. So stay tuned on social for the exact date which we'll be announcing soon. But we want to know, do you have a burning question for LJ Claren? Slide into RTMs or drop us a comment with everything you're dying to know. speaker-1: Also be deep diving the Incendiary Book 2 in the Selvarin series when it comes out in September. But until then, we're closing out the summer in a magical way. Next week, we'll kick off our coverage of the Practical Magic series by Alice Hoffman. You've likely seen the famous movie starring Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman, but did you know it's based on a four-book series? The second movie, which comes out on September 11th, is It's based on the Book of Magic, the last book in the series. So this is the perfect time to read the entire series for the full immersive experience. We'll be tackling the series with one episode per book, starting with book one, Practical Magic, on August 11th. But don't worry, you don't need to read four books by next week. This will be a read-along style discussion where we only cover one book at a time in release order. Next week's episode will only cover practical magic with no spoilers for the rest of the series. Each week we'll cover the next book in release order. Follow along on social media for the exact episode schedule and reading prompts. speaker-0: And these books, I think, are very manageable, about 300 pages each, and are also available on audiobook if that's more your speed. So we're hoping it's a low pressure read along to close out the summer and welcome in spooky season in style. So be sure again to follow us on social media at Deep Trip Podcast for a detailed episode schedule, reading guide, and just our thoughts along the way. speaker-1: Absolutely loving building this community of readers, and we're so excited to chat with you as we work our way through the Practical Magic series together. We're still a new podcast, and every single like, follow, and review makes it possible to continue to bring you weekly episodes. So if you haven't yet, give us a follow on your favorite podcast platform, and we'd be so grateful if you could take a moment to leave a five-star review and share the podcast with a friend or all of your friends on social media. And finally, before we begin, a quick reminder that all content warnings from the book apply to this podcast. We are two unfiltered millennials, so if you're with anyone who doesn't appreciate Gavin's dirty mouth as much as Ari does, maybe toss on your headphones. speaker-0: Alright, let's dive into the Silversmith. We pick up after chapter thirty, and Ari is making her way to Molokai's camp to offer herself in exchange for Gavin's wife. But little does she know they are one and the same. Alright, so we start with a flashback from Gavin. Four hundred and two years ago, Gavin Smith is working late into the night at his blacksmith shop to finish an intricate silver art piece and a set of iron candlesticks for a demanding customer. A sweet woman's voice breaks the silence by calling him sir, which makes him chuckle as he is usually accustomed to casual, easy to forget women. speaker-1: Maybe this is another little hint that Gavin might like hearing Ari call him sir. speaker-0: Think he might. Turning around with the intention of ordering her to leave, Gavin is instantly stunned, losing his breath as he takes in Ari's forest green and gold speckled eyes and her silver blonde hair. Recognizing her expensive velvet cloak and graceful demeanor, Gavin is seized by an intense animalistic need to claim Ari and protect her from other men, realizing right away that she is meant to be his. speaker-1: The first trope of the day Installove. speaker-0: And once again, I have to think that they are fated match or somehow destined to be together because this feels so intense. Like even for a love at first sight kind of moment, he goes from thinking women are forgettable momentary companions to being instantly obsessed with her. Like it's really making me feel like there's something deeper happening here than just his insta love. speaker-1: I know, it does it definitely hints at that, I think. speaker-0: Yeah, like it's just it's so intense and they're just talking about this connection and this like being drawn to each other, right? So it's a lot of evidence there. And after Gavin introduces himself, Ari requests that he make her a weapon and teach her how to use it. She saw him in a fight earlier and knows he's capable, so she sought him out to ask for his help. Gavin asks why she needs a blade. But Arya dodges the question, explaining that she has no one else to ask and that her family does not like her going anywhere alone. Gavin agrees to help her just to ensure she does not seek out anyone else. speaker-1: Okay, but he literally cannot wait to train her. speaker-0: ⁓ my god, I know. Gavin asks her her age and he feels a little bit like a predator asking, but once he learns that she's eighteen and a half specifically, he notes that it's only a three year difference since he's twenty one. And I agree, three years isn't a lot, but I do kind of feel like he's right to feel a little bit icky about this of just like having to ask because she seems so young. Like when someone feels the need to specify that they're eighteen and a half. They're maybe a little bit young, but honestly, I really have no ground to stand on. ⁓ I was nineteen and like one week old when I met my husband, who was twenty six at the time. So really can't can't say much about Gavin here. speaker-1: He asked how old you were? speaker-0: I mean, yeah, like he knew how old I was, but also I was in I was in college, so he knew that I was at least eighteen. But yeah, I think I think we did discuss that. speaker-1: Well, everyone here is college age as well. Everyone here is a college age legal adult, so there's definitely nothing even remotely questionable happening here. But it does come up specifically, and the only reason I think he does bring it up is because Ari seems so innocent and sheltered because of how she was raised. So compared to Gavin, who is independent for so long and like can clearly hold his ground, she watched him, you know, get into a brawl on the street earlier. ⁓ think it's just that like juxtaposition that she seems so innocent, he's like, Well, I just need to confirm. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. So it's not that like age itself that's the issue. It's that like she she seems a little bit younger than her age because of that, right? speaker-1: Yeah, or at least like less world experience. speaker-0: Yeah. Gavin says he will make her the weapon that she's asking for and he'll train her on one condition that she joins him for dinner the following evening. And when she asks why he wants to have dinner, Gavin says it's because she's the most beautiful thing he's ever seen and that a rejection might kill him. So again, he's pretty intense immediately. But it's interesting that he says that he feels like a rejection might kill him because has he not been rejecting Ari for like most of this book? Like as somebody who feels very strongly about not being rejected in this moment, he's been rejecting her left and right. speaker-1: And I think he feels awful about it. And think he's pretty clear that he feels awful about it. He doesn't want to reject her, he's just trying to protect her. speaker-0: I know, I know, but like he knows how much it hurts. But looking around apprehensively like maybe she's being followed, Ari does accept his invitation before turning to leave the shop. Gavin calls out to her, realizing he almost let her leave without even asking her name, and she tells him her name is Ella. speaker-1: The introduction of our nickname. speaker-0: In the present day, Gavin reflects on Felix Morton's betrayal, noting that despite providing for him, the man still sold Arya out to Molokai for a paycheck. Gavin drags Felix deep into the forest to interrogate him, so Ari can't overhear. When Felix claims to have recently seen Gavin's quote, beautiful wife held at Molokai's camp, Gavin immediately knows that he's lying. Knowing his wife is back at the inn, not at Malachi's camp. Gabin flies into a rage, stabs Felix in the side, breaks his fingers, and slits his throat. But he also promises to care for Felix's family, since they are innocent in this. speaker-1: Let's be honest here. Gavin was always going to kill Felix, which is probably the reason that he took him into the woods. Not just so that Ari didn't overhear the conversation, but so most importantly, she didn't overhear the killing or see it. ⁓ but I think this is so important and speaks so much to Gavin's character, because despite Felix's actions, he still offered to care for his family. And I really don't think that he had to. I think in a lot of other books and fantasy books, the character in Gavin's shoes would say, You forfeit that right when you double crossed me. ⁓ but Gavin is at his core good and while he needs to protect Ari and therefore eliminate threats like Felix, he can understand why the man made the poor choices he did, and he still shows compassion to his family. speaker-0: think Gavin has just a very strong sense of justice, which is something that we also see in Ari, right? They they definitely share that trait. and I think he will defend and protect innocent people, but if you wrong him or someone he cares for, you're fucked. Right. So it's it goes both ways. His his sense of justice leads him to have pretty much zero mercy for somebody like you said who double crosses him, but it also swings the other way, that he will fiercely protect people who he seem sees as innocent and worthy of protection. So speaker-1: You know what that sounds like to me? That sounds like some king behavior. speaker-0: Ooh. That might be true. Gavin plans to tell Ari the full truth in the morning, including the following elements. One, he really doesn't want to bring her to the caves, which like obviously. Two, Simeon, Eloin, and Ilias do not know his face. They only know him as the monster compelled by Malachi to leave the quote butcher's mark on victims. So This I I mean, I think we kind of knew it beforehand, but this is the part in the book where it's officially confirmed that he is the butcher and is officially inducted, I think, into morally gray MMC territory. I know that he's compelled to do it, but he has clearly killed many, many people. speaker-1: This is like the ultimate definition of morally gray. I would say it's morally dark gray. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. It's rough because he doesn't want to be this way, but he is that way. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: And finally, ⁓ Molokai knows that he has a wife, but does not realize that Ari and his wife are actually the same person. And he fears what will happen if Molokai ever discovers her true identity. So that's everything that he's planning to tell her in the morning. But returning to the inn, Gavin panics when he discovers that Ari is gone and he finds the note that she left. In the note Arya explains that she discovered Molokai has his wife and is going to trade herself and her powers to get her back for him, asking him not to follow her and to finally be happy. Gavin is devastated, weeping, and blaming himself for revealing that he had a wife in the first place, and he runs into the forest to track her down. He says, quote, in every life I would find her. speaker-1: This is a trope, right? speaker-0: I mean, I think we hear it enough in romanticy that I'd say that it is. speaker-1: It's like ⁓ where's my wife? But more than that, it's ⁓ it's I will do literally anything to find my li to find my wife. speaker-0: Yeah, in every lifetime I will find you. speaker-1: ⁓ that's it in every lifetime. I think that's the trope. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. speaker-1: After spending all of this time searching for her, after basically selling his soul and living an actual nightmare for four hundred years for her, to have her just slip through his fingers in a moment like that, I mean, that is just heart wrenching. speaker-0: I blame the fucking miscommunication trope for this, okay? If she knew that she was his wife, then she never would have sacrificed herself this way. Yeah. speaker-1: That's true. I mean, w we belabored that point, I think. speaker-0: I know, I know, but like miscommunication fucks it up every time. speaker-1: Yep, I guess that's the biggest lesson that we learned from fantasy books, romantic books. You need to communicate and if a man isn't willing to sell his literal soul to find you and trap himself on earth for four hundred years without you, chuck him. speaker-0: That's I mean, that's should be like the first question that you ask him on a date, obviously. speaker-1: Yes, obviously. speaker-0: So back in Ari's point of view, she is riding through the sleet to Molokai's camp and approaches a raven haired Insidian warrior named Kiana when she gets there. She declares that she is Simeon Whitlock's daughter, the one from the prophecy, and demands a trade. Herself for Gavin's wife. speaker-1: So I wish that I was surprised to see a woman folly Molokai who we know is a sex offender. speaker-0: But speaker-1: just don't seem to think that's an issue in a leader or you know, a president. speaker-0: God. It is truly insane to me that women support someone who is not only a predator himself, but also goes to great lengths to protect other predators. It's absolutely batshit crazy to me. Yeah. speaker-1: I also wonder if this character will come back in future books. The fact that we learn her name and a specific description is interesting, which I know there's other characters that we got that for in this book who actually we see die, so speaker-0: Like almost immediately, like Chernobyl. speaker-1: Yeah, Cherno Felix. So I'm not saying that it's a hundred percent, but I'm just curious, especially the fact that she's a woman. Like I I do think that that stands out. speaker-0: I agree. And I also feel like some of the characters that we met and then immediately unmet. ⁓ I I think that there's a chance that maybe we'll see them in the next book because I think there's a lot of things that we still have to unpack, like a lot that we we missed, right? 400 years of time that we missed that I feel like there's still a lot to learn there. So maybe we'll get some like flashbacks, maybe we'll get some speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: understanding of some of the things that were happening in that gap. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, I agree. speaker-0: At camp, the Insidians mock Ari and one of them abruptly hits her hard in the jaw, knocking her out. Ari wakes up stripped naked, frozen, and tied tightly to a tree surrounded by leering Insidian men. speaker-1: She mentioned that some of the men have their hands down their pants, which is fucking repulsive. And on our last episode, we discussed why someone would become an insidian. And this again shows men giving into their worst desires. And the only reason they don't attack her is because Malachi comes and says, like, they know they can't touch you. speaker-0: It's so disheartening to know that without the fear of consequences, so many people can become monsters. Like, just consider the staggering rates of sexual assault when they are there are like technically consequences in our society and there's still rampant abuse. So think about in this case, like yeah, Malachi doesn't want her to be hurt or killed by someone other than him in this moment. But like they really don't have a lot of consequences beyond that. So like I just imagine the terror that the Insidians are wreaking on every town that they come across. speaker-1: God, yeah. I mean we saw it in the one town. speaker-0: Ugh. Yeah, brutal. Yeah. And here comes Molokai himself. He emerges and he's described as a handsome, middle aged man, and he's flanked by suffocating, corrupted shadows. But again, he is not a shadow daddy. He is a deadbeat shadow dad. speaker-1: That's right. That's right. Don't be fooled by the fact that he's handsome and has shadows. speaker-0: Do not be fooled. And he immediately notes Ari's uncanny resemblance to her aunt Christabel, which is exactly what Ari was hoping for. Ugh. speaker-1: This guy sucks so bad, but I'm also conditioned to be at least slightly attractive to these kind of shadows. That's why we need to keep reminding ourselves. speaker-0: Yes, please resist. Resist the conditioning, Rachel. This dude is the worst. Do not fall for it. When Ari makes her offer to trade herself for the freedom of Nirada and Gavin's wife, Malachi admits that he never had Gavin's wife, and it was all a ruse. Ari begs him to take her and leave Nirda in peace. But he refuses, explaining that according to his bargain with Simeon, he must kill her to claim the power of the Selvarin. And I'm just really curious how this kind of power transfer would work. Like the way her magic works is so unique, and it feels like something inherent to her that would not be easily wielded by somebody else. Like, would the power work the same way if someone else was wielding it? Or is Malachi some kind of dark god and that's what would allowed allow him to wield the power? Like I'm just really curious how that would work to like transfer her power to somebody else. speaker-1: I agree, I agree. It is an interesting concept. So what have we what have we heard so far? Molokai and Simeon sourced their magic originally, potentially from beneath the earth's surface, in our minds, we think it could be the volcanoes. speaker-0: Maybe. speaker-1: The Selvarin donated parts of themselves to form Nirda, and then Malachi found another source of his magic. Like, do we think he maybe killed a god? speaker-0: Maybe. I mean, again, the way that it's described is that he went back to the source of power. So they make it sound like he went back to the same place that he and Simeon originally sourced it from. But we also kind of know that we have an unreliable narrator for some of this, right? Of like we don't really know a hundred percent what's true or what was fabricated by Simeon, ⁓ for like a lot of the kind of history of Nerda that we we know. So I really don't know what to think ⁓ at this point and I know that's one of the most the the biggest burning questions for me is where the magic is sourced from for Simeon and Molokai. speaker-1: Well, I wonder if that's why he wanted to kill her when she was a baby. Not because she was a threat to him, but because he wanted her magic. And that's why in my mind I'm like, ⁓ my god, did he kill a god and that's how he got this extra power? speaker-0: Right. I think that's definitely Worth considering. ⁓ because yeah, there's only so many I imagine that there's only so many sources of magic that could give him something so powerful. So anyway, he's gonna try to get some more power from Ari in a very torturous way. He starts by stabbing his black taloned nails into her thigh, filling her veins with agonizing black sludge. He then digs his claws into her collarbone to the bone, crushing her mouth to stifle her screams while using his shadows to torture her in relentless waves. The scene was really brutal to read. The torture sounds impossibly agonizing, and I think it's important to note the juxtaposition though of the darkness that we're seeing from Malachi, like the literal black sludge and the light. Because Ari's light being snuffed out by the black sludge of Malachi's darkness is how it's described. And I think that that is important juxtaposition. speaker-1: Well, we know there's a god with the power to counteract other gods' powers. So do we think that he's using Nixar's powers, Nixar's shadows, to snuff out Ari's light? speaker-0: So listen, that is exactly what it sounds like. But like we said last episode, I really don't want Molokai to have Nyxar's powers because he's Nyxar is the strongest god. I just I don't want to see somebody so evil have that much power, but that that is exactly what it sounds like. Mm-hmm. The only saving grace there would potentially be that if Molokai has that power. And Gavin is his son and has made some kind of deal with him, could that mean that Gavin has some of that power as well? speaker-1: I mean, they do say that the power of the gods passed down through their lines. Now, obviously we know that like nothing that Simeon said was true, so we don't actually know that's how she got powers. speaker-0: Everything with a grain of salt, right? speaker-1: but how fun would that be if Gavin had powers, especially those kind of powers? speaker-0: Right. I mean, we we've been noting every instance where we see Gavin described alongside like shadows and things like that. So we do have some evidence that has been piling up for it. I know I would like to see him have some kind of power like that because I want him to be able to like break this torturous bond that he has with Molokai. So we'll see. But that's the only thing that I'm thinking of, like, okay, if Molokai has this power, there's a chance that somebody good also has the power that can counteract him. So let's just cross our fingers for that. speaker-1: So you're what are you imagining that he has? Specifically all of Nyxar's powers or like part of it? Like ⁓ Malachi has part and he has part? Like what are you imagining? speaker-0: Well, I don't really know how it would really like be split that way. I'm just thinking that he either could have inherited the powers through, you know, his genealogy, like the fact that he is Malachi's son, or the bond, like the the deal that he made, I think, gave him some amount of power as well. Certainly it gave him the like immortality that he wanted, the time. So I think that there could have been some kind of transfer of power in that deal as well. Okay. speaker-1: We're not we're not going to theorize on the types of powers. speaker-0: I think he might be a shadow daddy. I'm hoping that he's a shadow daddy because he's already daddy. And I think that he's connected to shadows. So I think that would be that would be nice. speaker-1: So we're theorizing back to back series that the ⁓ C is gonna be a surprise Shadow Daddy. speaker-0: Yeah, I think we are. At least I am. I don't know. You have your underworld thing. Let me have my shadow daddies. I speaker-1: I don't think that the two are mutually exclusive. speaker-0: I think maybe you're right. Okay, getting back to our scene. Ari is being tortured, and she repeatedly loses consciousness until Gavin arrives, freeing her from the ropes with his switchblade, wrapping her in his shirt, and giving her water. ⁓ and reveals that Ari is his wife from the past life four hundred years ago, recalling the day she snuck into his blacksmith's shop to ask for a weapon. Weak and heartbroken, Ari struggles to believe it. Molokai traps Gavin in a prison of shadows and cruelly drops a bombshell on Ari. Gavin is not only her husband, but also Molokai's loyal son and the butcher of Nirda, who has speaker-1: Loyal son Loyal son is like got wrenching. speaker-0: I know. I know. It is, but like unwillingly loyal. Yeah. Loyal only because he literally can't go against this deal that he's made. Right. Yeah. But the yeah, that's that's a rough way to describe it. So Ari now knows Gavin is the butcher of Nirda who has done Malachi's bidding for four hundred years and is the one who murdered Ollie and Philip. Devastated and feeling deeply deceived, Ari screams that she hates Gavin. And honestly, Ari must be getting whiplash from how much she's swinging from love to hate for this man in the past few days. Mm-hmm. This is like the second time in as many days that she has felt deeply deceived and betrayed by him, right? And because she just learned speaker-1: I know. speaker-0: that this whole journey that they've been on has been a ruse as well, that it wasn't ordered by Simeon, right? And now she's like, Wan, if I thought that was deception speaker-1: Right. I mean what do they say? Love and hate are two sides of the same coin. speaker-0: Yeah, I mean it's it's brutal, but she's she's going through it and does not know what to think right now. ⁓ because she still has this piece of herself that yearns for him and is connected to him and she still loves him, but she's just getting blindsided left and right by all this shit that she had no idea. speaker-1: Well and you know, we've talked about her having this memory loss and really having to build herself up from scratch essentially and not knowing who to trust or what to believe and feeling so connected to him, feeling safe with him, feeling like he's like home and then to have just the rug pulled out from underneath you like this. speaker-0: ⁓ fuck. She's having she's having a hard time, okay? Our girl is having a bad day. She's having a bad week. Suddenly a gust of wind blows Ari's hair aside, revealing a scar over her heart. A terrified Molokai realizes that she isn't Simeon's daughter at all, but Gavin's actual wife, whom Molokai himself had stabbed when she was only three days old. speaker-1: Wait second. Wait a second. Wait a second. So this actually proves that they believe that the magic is passed down through bloodlines. And that's why he was trying to kill her. Like before he realized that she was actually Christabel's daughter and Gavin's wife, he still wanted to kill her. He's still killing people in Simeon's bloodline. So he definitely thinks that he's getting some sort of source of magic from them. speaker-0: That's true. I also, and I think I might have mentioned this in an earlier episode, but I think that it's possible that there was some other prophecy that was a true prophecy that talked about Ari, just not the one that Simeon made up. I don't know for sure, but I think that there I I feel like maybe there was and that Malachi part of his speaker-1: Right, right. speaker-0: motivation for that was also to stop whatever was prophesized for her future. speaker-1: Killing you're talking about killing Ari specific. But I'm saying this proves that regardless, they believe that magic is passed down through their bloodlines. And so him wanting to kill her before knowing that she was Ari proves that, which therefore proves in theory, that Gavin should also have magic. speaker-0: Yes. Uh-huh. That's true. speaker-1: But why hasn't it shown up for four hundred years? speaker-0: Are we sure that it hasn't? speaker-1: I mean, I don't think we've seen any magic, have you? speaker-0: We did we well, we will see him kind of do a spell to bring speaker-1: ⁓ true. True. Okay. All right. All right. Let's keep going. Let's get there. speaker-0: Okay. There's just so much to unpack. So Molokai asks Gavin if Ari is truly worth throwing his long life away for, and Gavin replies yes, always. And he begs Molokai to take his own life and soul instead of hers. I think if left to their own devices, these two would be stuck in like a perpetual cycle of sacrificing themselves for each other. I love you more, no, I love you more. speaker-1: It they really would. But also, did he really beg him to take his soul? 'Cause that's an interesting choice of words. It's giving Satan. speaker-0: He did. speaker-1: It's giving deal with the Depple. Part two. speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: And also he also sort of already took his soul based on his OG deal with the devil. speaker-0: Right. I mean that's what I'm thinking, is like, does he even really have a soul left to take? It seems like he sold that already. And speaker-1: I mean he uses those terms, he had to do awful things, but we clearly see that he has a soul. speaker-0: I mean I guess that's true. He still has goodness inside him. He still is tortured by the things that he's forced to do. Which yeah, I don't know that he would feel that way if he didn't have a soul. speaker-1: But it goes back to that line that we spiraled over. I don't believe the gods will let me go to heaven or whatever, but I hope that they put me somewhere that I can look at you, just you. That's not an exact quote, but parasitic Like that really hints at somebody sold his soul to the de Like that really hints that Gavin sold his soul to the devil and it's gonna get locked up somewhere. speaker-0: In the underworld? speaker-1: Maybe that's where this series is going. Ari's gonna have to go free him. speaker-0: Or have to go free his soul. Yeah. ⁓ speaker-1: That's what I mean, yeah. ⁓ man. Skipping fourth wing. speaker-0: But Molokai is intent on punishing them both, and he slowly and brutally tortures Ari by driving a knife into her hip, her stomach, her ribs, all while Gavin can only watch from his shadow cage. Gavin tries to encourage Ari during this torture, trying to keep her mind sharp and stop her from losing herself to the pain. She has moments of clarity where she can feel a connection to him. Describing it as an invisible string stretched out of me and latched onto him, refusing to be severed. Hello, faded mate. Mm-hmm. We've seen a lot of ⁓ those kind of destined mates, faded mates, whatever, described as like this tether, this invisible tether. Yes. And this is very strong imagery for that. Mm-hmm. At one point. Gavin demands eyes on me, and she can feel this connection between them strengthen at the command and obey him. And at that we get another good girl from Gavin. speaker-1: Who would expect a good girl at a time like this? speaker-0: Sh he's just really trying to comfort her and he knows that that's a good way to do it. As the blade punctures her, Gavin desperately shouts, I swear on every star, every sky, every soul that has passed through this world, I will follow you, I will find you, whatever it takes. speaker-1: This quote reminds me so much of Sarah J. Mass. And since you have DNF'd both Akatar and Throne of Glass, I will just leave it at that. But every sky, every sky, what could every sky mean? Is this just Gavin being a poet, or is this something more? Possibly another world? speaker-0: Anything is possible here. I I have questioned that exact thing so many times in this book of like, is he just being super dramatic? Or does every word that he says have some other meaning? Because he says so many like very dramatic, flowery kind of things like this that are like, is he is this just him? having so much emotion and so ⁓ so many strong feelings for Ari that he's just kind of hyperbolic in a way. Or is he being very literal? Right. I don't know. speaker-1: I know. It's so tough. Especially it's funny because we get these Gavin POVs in this section of the book. So we really get like we know he's filthy. We know he's like crude, but seeing it from his POV and then overlapping that with these like beautiful, dramatic things that he says. Interesting MMC. speaker-0: Yeah. There he contains multitudes, right? Yes. But these words that he says are familiar to Ari and they trigger a flood of past life memories in her mind, flashes of a cozy loft, silver ring, and a carefree, happy Gavin. So again, we're getting glimpses of Ari accessing her missing memories. So hopefully we don't necessarily need to go to these kind of lengths to unlock them in the future. But it's interesting to note that it could be possible for her to access her memories. speaker-1: Yes, she just apparently has to die over and over again 'cause it's literally her like having her life flash before her eyes. speaker-0: Yeah, I mean we did see I again, we're theorizing, but we did see, I think, glimpses of her memories in some of her nightmares when she was not actively dying. So hopefully there are other ways for her to access them besides this literal torture. But speaker-1: Yeah, hopefully she's not ⁓ you know how he likens her to a cat while they're training? When they're when they're training he likens her to a kitten. Hopefully it's not because she has to have nine lives. speaker-0: ⁓ my god. How many would she have left at this point? speaker-1: Mm, probably seven, right? speaker-0: Maybe two. speaker-1: Survived two death attempts, stabbing her through the heart and what we're about to see happen. speaker-0: Ooh yeah. But her memory vanishes as Molokai delivers a final strike, reaching into Ari's chest and tearing her heart completely out of her chest before casting her mutilated body over a cliff. Holy sh Ari's body shatters violently on the rocks below, kept barely alive by a cruel divine will that she feels every agonizing fracture as a weeping Gavin cradles her, desperately repeating a prayer and confessing his love until the world goes entirely dark and she dies. Holy fuck. Okay, surviving getting your heart ripped out and thrown over a cliff is Has got to be godly power though, right? Like even with the power of regeneration, you can't possibly be mortal if you can regrow your heart. speaker-1: Okay, well there's two things at play here. First, she definitely dies. She literally says, I died. So I think she did die, but it takes a minute, right? Like she says she's barely alive. She kinda describes that and speaker-0: I like the fact that she she survived a l long enough to like feel herself crashed to the bottom. She doesn't even have a heart in her chest. That's fucking crazy. speaker-1: Right. And I think that that could be whatever spell or potion that was used to keep her asleep for four hundred years, but not dead. speaker-0: Hasn't that worn off at this point, do we think? speaker-1: Yeah, I think it did wear off and that's why she died, but I just wonder if that's like what kept her alive throughout that time, that minute or whatever. speaker-0: That's an interesting thought. I hadn't thought about that. speaker-1: But it could be a god thing. Clearly there's clearly the gods are at play here because she comes back. speaker-0: She does. And we talked in an earlier episode about resurrection, but as far as we know, none of the gods have that specific power, right? Like we we know Viridian has the power of regeneration, which is what regrows Ari's heart, but if she was like fully dead, what power allowed her to actually resurrect? Or is it just like how sometimes when people have a heart attack they can be like legally dead for a short amount of time before their heart is restarted? Like I don't know, I'm wondering if that's the same power or if this resurrection is something outside of the powers that we've seen from her already. speaker-1: think there's anything standard about having your heart ripped all the way out, thrown over a cliff, every single bone in your body shatters. Like this girl is like mush. It's crazy that they describe Gavin as cradling her because I think he would like kneel. speaker-0: To gather her from the ladle. ⁓ God. Jesus. ⁓ my god. But yeah, somehow she fucking survives being soup and and she wakes up lying on warm grass beneath hot sunlight and a gentle breeze, realizing she is back in Warwick, though the perfectly blue sky and singing goldfinches feel out of place compared to the harsh, cold place she's familiar with. Arya notices that she feels no pain or Her heart is still beating, her clothes are free of blood, and she has no fatal wound through her torso. She spots Ollie sitting beneath an apple tree that has previously been cut down before his death. He is happily playing with a toy carriage and a small stuffed black horse. Ari feels as though she is swimming beneath a thick sheet of glass covered with doors. Through them she can see another world where scared, angry voices are begging for her to return. She recognizes that only one of the doors is real and she'd only have one chance to pick the right one to go through. Okay, so this is very clearly imagery of a land of the dead, like underworld situation that we've been theorizing about, but like we're seeing it here, right? speaker-1: Absolutely. Considering Ari is at her home that has been burned to the ground with her dead brother and her dead apple tree. Yes, I think she's definitely in the afterlife. So I'm calling this 100% an afterlife trope. Now, where this really gets interesting is the fact that there are multiple doors where people are scared and begging for her. speaker-0: Most Okay, fair enough. speaker-1: Because when I initially read this, I was thinking, ⁓ this is the one door to the world that she just left. And Gavin and maybe her friends who might have found out by now, because who knows how time works between the normal world and the afterlife are upset and like wanting her to come back, begging her back. But when we on the reread, we notice that it's multiple doors where people are scared and begging for her, begging for her. Not begging for her to return, just begging for her. So the question is, why are they begging for Ari? And this makes me think that she is definitely God, like God God, like the source of all that is good. And everyone, regardless of what world they're in, has that small piece of them yearning for like peace and goodness to be restored to their lands. speaker-0: Mm. I mean at this point it's really the only thing that makes sense. She has way too much power to be mortal. She's about to be resurrected here and return from th the afterlife. Mm-hmm. I mean Is she like a Jesus character? speaker-1: It kind of seems like that, doesn't it? speaker-0: Yeah. Destined to try to bring rightness to the world and bring bring goodness to the people of Nirida. I don't know. But she's still in the afterlife for now, and Ollie squeezes her arm and asks if the man with the scar on his face found her too. Ari notices that Ollie has no wounds or marks from the butcher like he did the last time she saw him. And Ali reassures Ari that he wasn't scared when he died, saying that the man was nice, gave him juice and the stuffed horse, and told him his father was just taking a nap. He says that he is no longer sick, hungry, or cold, and his father isn't sad anymore. speaker-1: So Gavin poisoned Ollie's apple juice. That is just so heartbreaking. Like we know he didn't want to kill him, but he also had to find a way to be gentle and calm and not scare him. And it just shows you how much of a piece of shit Molokai is that he's having children killed at all, but also like how good Gavin is that he's trying to fight it somehow in whatever way he can. speaker-0: So I don't actually know if the apple juice was poisoned, because in the first chapter he dis she like describes finding their bodies and she said that they each had a deep and precise cut across their throats. So I don't know that he poisoned Ollie, but I do think that he just gave him the juice to maybe like make him happy and stop him from being scared. But the he was still kind of merciful in his killing in that he was very precise, very quick, and like Just, you know, cut their throats in a way that they would die quickly and relatively painlessly. speaker-1: Maybe he gave him like a sleeping potion. speaker-0: Maybe. That would be nice. speaker-1: He doesn't describe being scared at all and I feel like even if you have juice and even if it's quick, that type of death would still have at least like a couple seconds of fear. speaker-0: Yeah, that's true. But regardless of the exact details, we know that Gavin was trying his best to not be a monster even though he was about to be forced to do something monstrous. When Arya asks Ollie where her stepfather Philip is, Ollie points to the house but tells her she cannot go inside because she can't stay here. He pulls her hand and tells her she must go back. speaker-1: Right. speaker-0: Ari admits that she isn't sure she wants to return because everyone lies to her, which is very fair. Ollie recalls when Ari was first brought home, his mother told him that Ari had been asleep for a long time and was too weak to know where she came from, so they had to play a game and pretend that she was his sister. He tells Ari that she is the strongest person he knows. She hugs him tightly and tearfully tells him that she loves him. Finding peace in his happiness even though it hurts to walk away. speaker-1: Okay, wild that this little kid was able to keep that secret. I don't know how much time either of us have spent with little kids, but I think we both know enough to know that they're not great with secrets. speaker-0: Seriously. The yeah. They they will spill your deepest, darkest secrets without even first of all realizing it but also without a care in the world. speaker-1: But again, not surprising that Eloyn would expect her five-year-old son to participate in this massive lie. Classic Elowin, Mom of the Year. speaker-0: Mm. Bitch. speaker-1: There's also a moment where Ollie speaks for Philip, telling Ari he's sorry that he didn't fight for her truth when he should have, and that it's okay to be angry because of what was taken from her. So does that mean Philip knew everything? Not just that Ari was the sleeping princess, but about Gavin as well, and maybe whatever else was taken from her, and that's why he drank? speaker-0: I think that's a good possibility. We've kind of been trying to theorize on why Philip was drinking. I mean, he has I think he has a lot of reasons to drink, honestly. But but yeah, I think that that that's interesting to think about. ⁓ but it also, if that were the case, then that would mean that Eloyn probably would have known everything as well, which just makes her even more of a fucking villain. Because we should speaker-1: I mean she's a bell in. speaker-0: I know, but if she knew everything, everything, then the way that she acted and probably will continue to act, 'cause she's not fucking dead yet, is terrible. So Ari watches Ollie wave goodbye and disappear into the house. She takes a breath, closes her eyes, and steps into the dense thicket of trees to return to the living world. But I I do wonder, how did she pick the right door? speaker-1: Yeah. Well, if you're right about Gavin being her mate, something we've seen in other romantic books, maybe he was her tether to that world. speaker-0: That's good thought. It does seem like they have that like strong tether that she can feel. Uh-huh. Maybe that is it. But also what if she had picked the wrong door? What's behind the other doors? speaker-1: Maybe we'll find out in later books. speaker-0: Maybe Ari wakes up in a soft bed in a cottage on the beach. She has a severe throbbing ache throughout her abdomen, chest, and back. Her limbs are cold and her torso is covered in bandages, but her heart is beating strongly in her chest. Surviving an unsurvivable injury, venturing to the land of the dead, and returning to the land of the living? That's some god shit, you cannot tell me otherwise. speaker-1: Hundred percent. speaker-0: Recognizing that their secrets almost led to her destruction, Ary resolves never to easily trust anyone ever again, including her friends, Damon, Simeon, Eloin, or Gavin. Ari hears Damon and Gavin arguing outside her door, and when Damon comes in, he explains that her heartbeat is the work of Viridian, the god of healing and regeneration, who reveals that Gavin prayed to the Salvarin in an ancient language and her blood literally commanded life back into her body. Okay, so is this some special power or influence that Gavin has then? Or do the Silvarin often listen to prayers from heartbroken men as long as they use the right language? speaker-1: They're just so happy somebody's speaking their language. They're like, Yeah, anything you ask speaker-0: Sure thing, honey. speaker-1: So previously we theorized that the language of the Salvarin holds power, and I think this is our biggest piece of evidence to support that theory. We know Simeon's magic is based in spells, right? Like he prefers spells. speaker-0: And like potions. speaker-1: Yes. So it's giving like scholar. I could see him learning different spells or the language of the Selvarin to to bring his magic to life. speaker-0: So then Gavin has magic then, right? Maybe. If he can use the spell, he would have to have magic. speaker-1: That's true. I was thinking that like anybody who knows the right words could do it, but maybe you have to have magic because the Insidians use the language of the Salvarin, right? Or no, they use the language before the Salvarin. speaker-0: Yeah. Language is an interesting theme here. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That we really do not get I don't I don't think we get enough information in this book to fully flesh out a solid theory about it. But yeah, we know that there's the old language that the Itsidians use and they're using it to spite the Silvarin, right? speaker-1: Right. speaker-0: And then we know that there's this ancient language of the Silvarin that Gavin uses in this instance to say this spell or this prayer or whatever you want to call it. And then there's whatever language like the is the current language, right? Right. So there's certainly something very specific going on. And it's clearly important. But yeah, I don't I I but I think we need to learn more. speaker-1: Yes. Yes. That's what we're gonna definitely be tuned into as we continue this series. I mean, unless who knows, maybe we'll learn it sooner than we realize, but if not, I think that's something we're definitely gonna be looking for hints about. speaker-0: For sure. Ari demands to know if Damon knew about Gavin's lies the whole time, and he admits that he's Gavin's cousin and that he did know everything. He also tells her that Gavin told Gemma everything before they left Tovik, though their other friends remain in the dark. Ari is horrified to realize that Gemma knew and still let her leave with him. Gavin enters the room looking exhausted and defeated. Despite her intense rage, Ari also feels an intense longing when his stare meets hers. Gavin begs for a chance to explain, promising she can kill him if she still wants him dead afterwards. speaker-1: Good deal. speaker-0: Yeah, fair fair deal. He confirms Arya is indeed his wife, whom he loves with everything he is. He reveals she is actually four hundred twenty two years old, having been trapped asleep for four centuries, and that he has lived all four hundred twenty six years of his life. speaker-1: You know that feeling when you have accidentally napped for too long and you wake up thinking it's like Tuesday and you missed work. Imagine that times 365 times 400. speaker-0: ⁓ my god. That's I I describe those as like nap hangovers. Mm-hmm. where like the nap didn't was like too intense and didn't actually help you and you feel worse afterwards. Mm-hmm. Yeah. ⁓ this is a whole nother level. Gavin confesses that he is Molokai's son, born after his mother was raped, and admits that he is the butcher of Nirda. So confirming what Molokai kind of ⁓ threw at her in his rage. And he did indeed kill Philip and Oliver because he is bound by an involuntary blood oath to Molokai that strips him of his physical control once a target is named. He never intended for innocence to be part of his deal, and he was devastated to have been forced to kill Ollie. speaker-1: A twisted oath trope. This is something we usually see in like fairy books. You need to be very specific with your words when making a deal in romantic books. speaker-0: That's true. And I don't think we learned the exact words of the oath here, but Damon later tells Ari that, quote, he vowed to kill for Molokai in exchange for the power to make him ageless, to remain thirty-one forever. And Molokai let him believe that it would only be one kill that the victim would be guilty. And we also know, like Gavin said, that the orders require the real name of the victim. Which is why Gavin is so terrified for Molokai to learn Ari's name, because he's convinced that as soon as he has her real name, he will order Gavin to kill her. speaker-1: What's interesting here is he made a deal to remain thirty one forever, right? speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: Was the deal that he will never die because then with the poison that he's carrying around his neck as his sort of last resort if he is given Ari's name, would that even work? speaker-0: ⁓ my god, that would be so dark if he's like desperately trying to kill himself and he can't. Mm-hmm. I haven't thought about that. I mean, on the opposite side, again, it's a twisted oath. So if the thought is that he would remain 31 forever, I mean, you do hear people kind of referred that way when they die. Of like, well, he'll be this age forever. Mm-hmm. speaker-1: ⁓ so you think he's already dead? He's like a vampire? speaker-0: Maybe. speaker-1: He's just living off the souls of all the people he has killed over four hundred years. speaker-0: I mean, we really I don't know. I don't know how this whole agelessness thing works, right? Because I don't think that Ari is dead, right? Like I mean, she got resurrected, right? She's not in this afterlife. So whatever is keeping her alive or kept her alive for the four hundred years in her sleep, some version of that I believe is what Gavin has as well, is that's keeping him alive, but I don't know. Is it just like he has this like some kind of spell that Can be broken? Like does it does he have to break the oath to die? speaker-1: Right. ⁓ that's interesting. So then how would he even break the oath? speaker-0: Right. Well, I think we have to find that out because that's what he's striving to do. That's what he vows to do. speaker-1: Well, and we know that Simeon and Malachi are also four hundred plus. Like they have some kind of magic going. Cause I was imagining Ari's as different from theirs. I was imagining Ari's is like just like putting her on ice for four hundred years. speaker-0: Right. And I I I think that's that's fair. I do think that it's different because again, she was asleep the whole time, so and it was not her own doing that was keeping her alive, whereas Simeon and Malachi are like keeping themselves alive through their own power. speaker-1: Okay, so Kate's theory is that Gavin Smith is a vampire shadow daddy. Who will eventually become king of the underworld if he's not already. speaker-0: Maybe not a vampire because he doesn't have to feed on people, but just an an maybe an undead shadow daddy. speaker-1: I mean, if he's feeding on souls though, that is giving King of the Underworld. speaker-0: ⁓ jeez. Okay, I I can't think about that right now. So Gavin is not done revealing lies and incredible things to Ari. So he tells her that the prophecy is a lie manufactured by Simeon who abducted Ari four hundred years ago, put her in an age of sleep, and convinced the world that she was his daughter. And he reveals that Malachi had stabbed Ari when she was only three days old. giving her the scar on her chest, and he spent centuries hunting for the Silvar in power, never realizing that Ari had survived. Which is interesting because again, if we like, I I still am going back to why exactly did Molokai stab Ari? Because I was thinking originally that he stabbed her because he believed that that would give him her power. Right? And it still kind of sounds like that's the case, but then why would he not put it together that she survived if he didn't get that power? Like he still spent four hundred years searching for it, if it didn't transfer her to him when he supposedly killed this baby that he thinks is dead, did he just think, ⁓ maybe she didn't actually have that power and it's somewhere else and I need to kill somebody else to get it? Or Like what did he think that the power transfer just didn't work? Like what made him think that both he doesn't have the power and this baby is dead? speaker-1: Great point. So I wonder if this goes back to that line about this is far more than an old war between two old men or whatever the exact line was. And we theorize that there was like a war between the gods. So if Malachi has Nyxar's power and it's kind of snuffing out the other powers, snuffing out the other gods, maybe that's the deal that he made. Maybe the deal that he made that gave him more power was like, you're gonna go kill the other gods. And that's why the insidians are attacking the temples. Because also it also gives credence to the theory that Ari is a god and when she's in the afterlife and sensing all these people like begging for her, those are people like worshipping her, maybe. speaker-0: ⁓ my god, Rachel. This is crazy. I'm gonna have so much to think about. More revelations from Gavin. Simeon erased Ari's memories because he feared her powers and wanted to hide her from Molokai until he could use her as a tool to destroy him. Gavin notes that Simeon only sent him to Ari in the present day because Gavin threatened severe consequences if he was kept from her any longer. So Gavin says that he refuses to be another chain in her life and But he prays that she will choose him again in this life out of genuine desire rather than an ancient vow. He tells her that her future and her identity are entirely her own choices to make. And he says this, but it doesn't feel like she has great choices. Like how many choices does she really have in this situation? speaker-1: Yeah, I mean she doesn't have great choices, but he has spent this entire book trying to teach her to create her own path when it seems like she doesn't have a choice. speaker-0: That's true. But he has also been making a lot of choices for her. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: By hiding all of this information. speaker-1: Giving her crumbs. I mean, I th it's tough 'cause how much could you give somebody without overwhelming them to the point that they just shut down? speaker-0: True. But speaker-1: And he and he wants her to choose him for herself. If he were to just show up and say, Here's what's going on, throw everything at her at once. I'm your husband. She already feels safe with him. She's just gonna trust him and just go with him then. speaker-0: That's true. But she also can't choose him for him if she doesn't know who he is. speaker-1: Yeah, no, I mean it's a it's a tough situation. speaker-0: It is. What would we do if we were Gavin? speaker-1: ⁓ I know what I would do. I would do exactly what I said he shouldn't do and give her all of the information. speaker-0: Do with it what you will Yeah, honestly I probably would too. Mostly just 'cause I'm so bad at keeping secrets. Like I You know this because I tell you all of my secrets. But Ari insists that she will never be the girl he lost. And even so, she recognizes that she feels a powerful instinctual pull toward his touch and his voice. Because they're a faded match. I'm assuming. Ari commands him to leave, and Gavin leaves a note for her to read before going to the caves and gives her these final words Don't let this world take one more thing from you. Ari is left with a desire to drown everything and burn everyone until only the truth remains, but all she can feel is black. So there's a lot in that as well. Mm-hmm. First of all, again, her light is still being drowned out by darkness. That's all that she can feel. But also, the desire to drown everything feels very old testament to me. Ari, your godliness is showing. speaker-1: Beginning of flood. speaker-0: If it feels like she wants a flood to just like this world is fucked. Let's start again. Let's try this again. speaker-1: Maybe Gavin needs to start building a boat instead of just building his cabin over and over again. speaker-0: I hadn't quite put all of these together originally, but now that I'm seeing it and we're talking about it, we're getting like Old Testament God, we're getting some like Jesus imagery here. It's starting to feel a little bit biblical. speaker-1: Also, maybe that's the point. Like maybe we're supposed to be putting those pieces together and just like praying she doesn't flood the entire earth and go through one of those doors and start over. speaker-0: I think if people keep fucking lying to her, I think they're gonna break her and she has so much power that yeah, you better hope that she does not go old testament god on you. Ari takes a week to heal enough to leave bed. She had used all of her supernatural powers to save her life, and it left nothing for the remainder of her healing. But still, the fact that she can heal from soup is incredible. speaker-1: Right. speaker-0: The month of Neville brings a new year. Gavin does not return, and Ari lets self loathing fuel a burning rage rather than gloom. Ari stays at a small secluded cabin south of Brynea with Damon, far enough away that the city remains out of sight. Though angry at Damon for being complicit in all the secrets and lying, Ari lets him care for her and walk with her along the shore. She constantly sees, feels, and hears Gavin in her surroundings. His memory brings her conflicting feelings of grief and comfort. Damon reveals that while Ari was unconscious, Gavin refused to eat or sleep, doing nothing but watching over her. And three weeks later, he brings Ari a silver furred, iridescent wildcat cub called an umbra that was sent by Gavin. Rachel, I'm sure that you have a connection to make here between the The iridescent cat and the irids in the Empyrean series. speaker-1: mean andarna, Shira, basically the same thing, right? speaker-0: Sounds like it. speaker-1: But actually my connection was going to be between the cat's silver fur and Ari's silver hair. So I'm wondering if they have similar magic somehow. speaker-0: That would be lot of fun. Mm-hmm. And I'm also just excited that Ari has this like creature companion because finally she's going to have a companion that doesn't start their relationship by lying on like a diabolical level. speaker-1: Well, hopefully not. While we're making Emphyrian connections. speaker-0: ⁓ my god, no, please don't let this cat be complicit in another set of lies. ⁓ my god, let her sh know some amount of peace. Damon explains that Umbras are an exceptionally rare, protective, and intelligent breed. Ari senses a natural connection through the god of animals, Sultum. And Sultum has the power to communicate with creatures, right? So I'm kind of hoping that we get like a talking cat in the next book. I know that the communication style might be like more nuanced than that, you know, like maybe not an actual conversation happening between them. But I do think that it would be fun for her to just be able to like talk to this cat telepathically. speaker-1: I agree. I would love a little magical creature bonding. But I don't like the way that you're describing it because it's giving Cat in the hat. speaker-0: Why could you literally speaker-1: I said talking cat in the next book, all I could imagine is cat in the hat. speaker-0: No, I was thinking more like I don't know, like Salem in Sabrina, the Teenage Witch or like any other less cartoonish examples of like familiars. I don't know. speaker-1: Yes. Yes. ⁓ Salem and Salem's the ultimate ⁓ familiar in my mind. speaker-0: Mm. Yeah, he's like sassy and kind of a bitch. It's great. Gavin writes that he rescued the cub and named her She-Ra after Ari's past pet, that of course she doesn't remember, and he encourages Ari to train her as a companion and a protector. So remember that warm, soft thing moving against her in her nightmare/slash memory in the casket? Was that Shi-Ra number one? Okay. speaker-1: Okay, so that begs the question, what happened to Shira I? Is she buried? Is she still frozen in time? Is this the OG Shira and she just was given some kind of potion and that's why like the potion that kept her frozen for 400 years is what turned her into an umbra? speaker-0: I don't know. I'm trying I'm trying to keep Shira a little bit less complicated than the rest of Ari's existence. I'm hoping that Shira can be like an uncomplicated friendly, protective companion for her. So I think I'm gonna avoid theorizing too much about her origins. I don't know, because it says that she they rescued her. speaker-1: Right. Right. Yeah, so we're gonna believe that new Shira is just some sort of magical creature that Gavin rescued somehow, and that OG Shira is a relic of the past. speaker-0: That's what I'm gonna believe. Ari releases the cub from her leash, giving her the freedom to leave, but Shira affectionately chooses to stay by her side. The cat's presence brings Ari peace and helps ease her nightmares. Is it important to note that Gavin sent her something to ease her nightmares? speaker-1: Maybe I love that he just sent her an animal companion to protect her both physically and emotionally. Like he wanted her to have something by her side since it couldn't be him. speaker-0: That's true. And that is a lovely, uncomplicated but wholesome way to think about it. So I will accept that. speaker-1: And to make it to make it a little bit more complicated, but not much more, you know, they describe Umbras as being these magical creatures that they thought were extinct. And so I like the idea that Shira chose to go I mean, yes, she's on a leash, but speaker-0: But no, but Ari undoes the leash and gives her the freedom to leave if she wants to. speaker-1: Right, but I'm saying before that, like, chose to go on this journey to Ari. Like I ki I wonder if like if they are fated mates, if she sensed Ari through Gavin and was like, I need to go find Ari and it's another connection to the gods type thing. speaker-0: ⁓ right. Like Sultum, the god of the animals, like spoke to Shira to say, like, this is your destiny. speaker-1: Maybe, yeah. Or maybe it's like if she's like a creature of the gods, she like sensed this god on earth type of thing. speaker-0: Yeah. Either way, I like that Ari gave her the option that Ari has never really had to choose your own destiny. Right? And you don't have to be here. I'm not going to force you to stay with me just because this man brought you to me. speaker-1: Yeah, she's a god who believes in free will. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But Shira is a great companion. I can't wait to see their relationship grow in the next book. After a week of improving health, Ari vows never again to act on untested assumptions, trust blindly, or let herself be manipulated. Great job. I wish that this had been the case from the beginning, but I'm glad she's finally recognizing it. Mm-hmm. speaker-1: I mean, at the beginning of the book, she was essentially six months old in terms of life experiences. So I think she did the best that she could to survive. ⁓ betrayal is a life lesson that can only really be learned by experience. You can't teach somebody to know how to deal with that. speaker-0: That's true. It's true. I'm I'm happy to see her learning. Daemon presents Ari with a 400 year old scrap of paper reading It was Simeon, do not follow me, which Ari recognizes as her own handwriting left for Gavin. And Damon recounts some more of Ari's history. Gavin was the son of Malachi and a servant girl that he assaulted, but he was raised by a blacksmith. Ari was Queen Christabel's daughter. And when she was three days old, Molokai stabbed her through the heart, but unbeknownst to him, she survived. So again, these are some things that we had heard before but are being confirmed by Damon in this recounting. Simeon kept Ari hidden away out of fear and a desire for control, using her as part of the prophecy that he engineered to help his agenda. Gavin met and married Ari when she was 18. After Simeon stole her away, Gavin spent nine years searching for her. And desperate to see her again, he made a binding blood oath with Molokai for agelessness, trapping him into becoming Molokai's unwilling assassin for four centuries. And then when Arya opens Gavin's personal letter, where he expresses his undying love and encourages her to fight for her own life, he advises her to train in combat to become as deadly as possible. So again, he's trying to guide her to being her own person. To make her own choices, but is saying, Listen, you're gonna need to know how to fight. And I'm gonna Whatever comes next. speaker-1: Yes, yes. And I'm going to need you to collect souls for me. speaker-0: She gonna be like his Grim Reaper? speaker-1: Maybe that's what he is. He's like the Grim Reaper. speaker-0: I mean he's certainly some kind of harbinger of death. Gavin warns her to leave Brinia once healed and promises to find a way to break his oath and fight for her heart again. He also tells her that she is quote a miracle too great for this world with or without your powers. Which again we're reading into his exact words here, because what do you mean there's without her powers? Like, is there a risk of her not having her powers? Is someone going to steal her powers? speaker-1: ⁓ god, hopefully not. That is one trope I can't stand. The wildly powerful FMC sacrifices it all to save her kingdom, even her powers. Like, can we do all of that but keep the power? Because that would truly be a happily ever after for me. speaker-0: I hope so. Like I'm hoping that he just meant your powers are not what makes you great. Mm-hmm. But again, the way that he said it is with or without your powers. I know. And I'm just very prone to overanalyzing his words. Yeah. Gavin reveals that his Tally Mark tattoos represent the 402 years that he has lived without her. So Ari has been asking Mm-hmm. What are these? And he finally reveals speaker-1: Yes. And I love Yes. And I love that he reveals that they're specifically not kill marks. Because I think he knows that that's what's in her mind. She's like, ⁓ my gosh, he's the butcher of Nirada, he's counting his kill marks. Actually, for how many people he's been killing over four hundred and two years, probably would have been a lot more. speaker-0: Well it would been so many more. This guy has killed more than once a year. Okay. Sorry, but he doesn't have space on his body for that many tally marks. Yeah. speaker-1: ⁓ Yeah. Blacked out. The whole speaker-0: Yep. Ari is touched by his words and resolves to reclaim her life and future on her own terms, finding comfort in the two silver rings resting around her neck. speaker-1: I like the symbolism here. In this book, Gavin wears the two rings around his neck and was committed to finding Ari and helping her to train and step into her power, all the while yearning for her. And LJ Claren has teased that Ari becomes the queen of yearning in the incendiary. So I see this as sort of a passing of the baton. She has all of the tools she needs to train herself, lead her people. And hopefully find a way for her and Smith to live happily ever after, fingers crossed. Although it is a five book series, so maybe I'm being too optimistic here. speaker-0: I know, I have to keep reminding myself of that because I, you know, I'm about to read The Incendiary now that we are recording this and I can officially start reading that ⁓ without kind of messing up any of my my thoughts from this first book. ⁓ and I do I need to kinda like temper my expectations. For everything that we're going to learn, because I know that some of it is going to be withheld until later in the series. So I'm trying to be realistic with ⁓ how much is going to be revealed in this next book, but we'll get to that. So that is the end of the story to this point. And then what we're going to discuss now is the epilogue, which is from Elias Winterton's point of view, and then some bonus chapters. So let's get into this epilogue and learn a little bit about Elias, who has been kind of this like mysterious unknown piece ⁓ through all of this. speaker-1: Yeah, right now all we know is that he's a hot blonde with a tight ass, loves to fuck, and Gavin hates him. speaker-0: Yeah, and listen, that's still kind of all that we're gonna know about him, but we get a little bit more insight. So Ilias spent twenty years planning his future around his betrothed, the prophesized queen, but his life plans fell apart after his team returned to the caves without her in their possession. He learned about Kaz losing his leg in Tovik. And when Elias questioned why they were even in Tovik to begin with, Finn looks confused and says it was under Simeon's orders. Ilias notes that Gemma has been unnaturally silent since returning, and that Ezra complained about a man named Smith, a late addition to their group, who took Elias' betrothed under his wing without permission. So it's funny that, you know, Elias is kind of gathering all this information from his team when they came back without Ari and one of the main things that's tipping him off is just Gemma's like quiet behavior. Like her personality is so loud that he immediately clocked that as suspicious. speaker-1: Yes. It's also funny that she was supposed to be a trained spy, but hasn't figured out how to lie. And her her reaction is just to be quiet. speaker-0: Yeah. Like there's a lot of that is a bad tell. There's some there's a lot of different ways to give yourself away. Right? Like you don't have to actually say the secrets that you're you're holding. These suspicious actions, like acting completely unlike yourself, is a big tell that you are hiding something. Yeah. So yeah, that's a good point. You would think that a trained spy would be better at like having a poker face. Ilias wakes up hungover in his bedroom following a wild night with a woman named Larissa. He dismisses her, cleans up a shattered whiskey decanter from an expensive rug, and instructs her that she must address him as commander outside the bedroom. And I feel like this is a pretty clear picture of who he is, but luckily it does seem like he's going to have somebody who's willing to call him out on his bullshit at least a little bit. speaker-1: Honestly, it was surprising he doesn't want to be called commander inside the bedroom as well. speaker-0: That's true. So Ilias' best friend and commander, Valda, enters his room and criticizes him for drinking and sleeping around to deal with his issues. So I think that Valda is going to be like the anchor to reality for him that keeps him a little bit grounded. She hands him a letter from a spy stationed east of Tovik who observed the queen at Molokai's camp in Brynea. Valda then informs a panicked, furious Ilias that Molokai killed the queen by ripping out her heart. Valda explains that they believe Smith is actually the butcher. They suspect he tricked the team into believing he worked for Simeon, delivered the queen to Molokai, and stole her body after her death. Struggling to accept that the queen is dead and that his team was fooled, Ilias nearly breaks down from grief and rage. He reflects on how the butcher had previously taken his family from him. Suspecting that Gemma Tremaine's strange silence means that she knows the truth, Ilias orders Valda to bring her to him. speaker-1: From the perspective of Ari's people and Elias' people, this is as dire as things could possibly be. Ari was essentially their last hope, and now she's been murdered by Malachi's biggest weapon. This has to be the lowest point in the 400 year war, right? speaker-0: I think so. I mean, like, he's just realized that everything that he has spent the last, what did he say, twenty years building up to is gone, like in an instant, right? His queen that he's been waiting for and been preparing for has been killed by their enemy. This guy who infiltrated his team and their mission to bring her back to him is None other than the butcher that has taken so many other people's lives, including some of his own family members. Like everything is going wrong right now and he's just reeling. Like, how does he come back from this? speaker-1: Yeah. What are your thoughts on Elias? speaker-0: I mean, at this point, again, we don't know that much about him, but obviously he's a fuck boy. But I don't think that I hate him. he's known his entire life that he's betrothed to Ari, the future queen. He has had his entire future mapped out from him from day one. I guarantee that Simeon has been manipulating him and feeding him whatever story advances Simeon's personal interests. So who knows what Elias believes at this point. point in the situation, like what his reality kind of is. But what we do know about him is that he's an arrogant playboy, but also a strong and capable commander that has the respect of his troops, right? Like everybody in that group except for Gavin has has respect for him. ⁓ and I do think that it sounds like he's earned it, at least, you know, from a military leader perspective. Yeah. And I think that that counts for something. ⁓ plus I think that Simeon and Malachi are enough bad guys to deal with. I don't know that we need to add Ilias to that group. You know, I think that I think that he's gonna maybe surprise us a little bit with ⁓ his true nature in a good way. speaker-1: Yes. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I'm interested to see where the story goes with him. I mean, he's certainly been teased as a love interest for book two. ⁓ so far with what we know, he's giving Dorian. I know you didn't finish Throne of Glass, but you met Dorian. He's kinda giving Dorian. certainly a Playboy fuckboy prince is something we've seen in other romanticy books, and I'm excited to see whether He has sort of an interesting character arc and becomes like a better person because of it. Or on the flip side, maybe this goes darker, right? Maybe this is the thing that pushes him to the dark side. I feel like this is really that catalyst that could go either way. speaker-0: It's true, right? Like learning that you've been deceived your entire life and that everything that you've been led to believe is actually not the case, and that basically you're a pawn in somebody else's game and somebody else's play for power. Yeah, that could be your villain origin story pretty easily. But I'd again I I think that we have enough villains already. I I would like to see Ilias take that and kind of do what I believe that we're gonna see Ari do and just try to take control of his own future and get out from under the boot of these men that are trying to use him for their own gain. So that's the end of the book. If you got like the paperback, I think that's where everything ended. But if you listened to the audiobook, or if you signed up for LJ Clarence's email newsletter through Second Sky Books, then you also got two bonus chapters. speaker-1: All right. speaker-0: that provide some of the events of chapters three and seventeen from Gavin's perspective. We love a bonus chapter. speaker-1: Ha. speaker-0: So you get to see his reaction to finding Ari and seeing her for the first time in four hundred years, as well as his reaction to her on the night of the infamous assault at the Black Badger. So I read the Kindle version of the book, which didn't include the bo bonus chapters, and it was very exciting news for me that we get Gavin's point of view of these events. ⁓ there's a few key things that come from these chapters, so I'll just note I think some of the highlights. ⁓ starting with When Gavin arrives at Ari's cabin, he notes that he wishes he hadn't seen it before, alluding to the heartbreaking murders that he was forced to commit there. Once he lays eyes on her, he's furious to note her starving, frail body and her clear lack of will to live. And I felt pretty validated here because he notes that her weak state is the direct result of Simeon's orders. I knew Eloyn was too insistent to just be a bitch. I mean obviously she is a bitch. But she was also deliberately keeping Ari weak and hungry to suppress her power and keep her easily controllable until Simeon needed her. In fact, Gavin notes that Simeon was also using some kind of power suppressing potion on her. So that extra time that he wanted that Gavin wanted to give Ari before going to the caves was obviously to get her stronger and healthier, but it was also to give time for the potion to wear off so that she could access her powers. So this also explains why her powers didn't show up earlier when she needed them. I mean, I know we we kept saying like she was starving, she was on the brink of death. Why didn't her powers show up to help her? This is why, you know? ⁓ and I wish that I had seen these chapters earlier to kind of connect some of these dots, but yeah, like literally she couldn't because she they were being suppressed by this potion from Simeon. Literally speaker-1: Everything is explained. Literally everything is explained. We should have found this sooner. Might have been a shorter deep dive. speaker-0: ⁓ speaker-1: He also explains that, you know, he doesn't plan to kill Elowin, though he's considered it many times, which is honestly shocking. I would have expected him to have her at the top of his list, only under maybe malachi and maybe Eli. We know he doesn't like him. But also the power suppressing potions, I know that it sounds bad, but it could be protecting Ari. Like It could be protecting those around her from what happens if her powers go haywire and she doesn't know what they are or how to use them. It also could be protecting her because Molokai's looking for her. And Molokai can sense the powers of the Salvarin, at least he believes so. So that could have been something that helped to keep her hidden from him. speaker-0: It's true. But that just kind of feeds into Simeon's whole thing, right? Where like he's protecting the people. ⁓ if you guys knew where the source of magic was, then you'd be a target for Molokai. ⁓ if Ari had access to her powers, then she would be able to be found by her enemies. So like, yes, that might be true, but it's also like a convenient cover for the fact that he has his own agenda and wants this power for himself and all of this is just helping him control the situation. So yeah, like again, he's he has just enough of that like credible need for these things to be the way that they are that, you know, he's convinced an entire group of people that he's not a bad guy, or at least that he somewhat has their best interests in mind. But I I think it's just a convenient cover for his true intentions, which are not in anybody's mess best interest but his own. So I think we'll find out, but I hate Simeon and don't trust him at all. So again, when Gavin sees Ari for the first time in four hundred plus years He begs the gods for her to have her memories, but he's devastated to learn that she has absolutely no memory of him. He thinks there might be a glimmer of recognition, but I think that's just a part of her soul that's connected to his, not something that she's conscious of. But I'm curious why he didn't pray to the gods in the language of the Silvarin, like he did when she died. Like if he's praying to the gods asking for her to like have her memories. why doesn't he use the language that seems to have some kind of power? Like it appears that the language of the Silvarin has power and maybe it could have helped her access her memories. Or does it only work with a power relevant to the Silvarin? Like the regeneration that Viridian has. Like maybe he could pray specifically to Veridian for like her heart to be regrown But I don't know if any of the Silvarin control memories, so maybe he couldn't pray to a specific god for that. I don't know. speaker-1: Yeah, that's a good question. I was assuming it was some sort of like a spell and maybe he just doesn't know the spell. speaker-0: That could be it too. Maybe he's gotta read his like grimoire or whatever the spell book is in this book. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. So Gavin is pretty consumed with the dread of Molokai finding out Ari's name. Like we see it come up a few times in these bonus chapters from his point of view that he's just constantly worried about that. And he's convinced that as soon as Molokai knows her name, he'll invoke the blood oath and order Gavin to kill her. And we know that that's why he carries the poison around his neck. But in these chapters we learn just how terrified he is of that possibility and that it's really a driving force behind his determination to keep his distance from her as well. speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, it would be absolutely devastating if he ended up killing her before being able to take the poison. Like it would be some kind of even more fucked up, Romeo and Juliet. speaker-0: ⁓ seriously, that would really be turning it on its head. Mm-hmm. It'd be so dark. speaker-1: I mean it wouldn't matter 'cause she'll just come back to life, but I'm just saying it would've been speaker-0: Would she? What if he couldn't do that spell again? I don't know. How how many lives does she actually have? Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, good point. speaker-0: So we've been lamenting this entire time pretty much about how tortured Gavin is for this whole book. And it's painfully apparent when we see his point of view in these events. Every second that he spends in Ari's presence is an excruciating mental war between like his desire for her and his concern for her safety. He admits that she's not torturing him, he's torturing himself. He believes that Ari is bound to fall for Ilias when she meets him because he's a young, handsome prince molded by Simeon to be hers. Of course, he also believes that Ilias will fall for her instantly in return. And we brought this up previously, but this made me think again about what exactly Ilias' role in all of this is like intended to be. Like what does Simeon need him for? If Simeon has been specifically molding him to be Ari's, Then it seems Simeon wants Ari to like him and maybe even fall for him. But assuming that Simeon is up to some shady shit, which I definitely think he is, I think he's planning to use Ilias against her in some way, like get her to like him and trust him, and then somehow use him to betray her into like forfeiting her power somehow. speaker-1: What a weird uncle. Here look, I made you a life size Ken doll. It's not so bad I stole your life and your memories and locked you up for four hundred years. speaker-0: Yeah, here's your here's your fuck boy. Have fun. It is weird. In both of these bonus chapters, we see Gavin struggling to reconcile this new version of Ari with the strong, brave version he knew from centuries ago. And he's happy when he sees glimpses of her true self coming back. He notes how she's always had to fight hard for what she wants versus what other people want for her. And he remembers this like gilded cage basically that he found her in originally at the castle. And he'd sworn to break her free at that point, and he had. And so he swears that he'll do it again. Like, I've done it once, I'll do it again. Mm-hmm. I will not let other people decide your fate for you. speaker-1: Yes. I mean, clearly, other than maybe her mom, we don't know her mom. You know, we don't we don't know what she was like, but we know what Simeon is like, at least a little bit. We see his actions. And it seems like Gavin is the only person who ever had Ari's best interest in mind. Like, not what Ari can do for the kingdom, what Ari can do for everybody else, but Ari's best interest in mind. And he's always fighting for For her to have the life that she wants. speaker-0: That's right. And we love him for that. That's why he's daddy. At one point we get a line from Gavin saying, Shadows, corrupt and vile and all consuming, crowded my vision, clawing at the walls of my mind, begging to be freed. Which was very much giving Molokai vibes, which is pretty concerning. Or maybe not so concerning if it just means that maybe he has similar powers and can counteract him. I don't know. I don't know. But we also get another good girl in one of the bonus chapters. So maybe we should add that to our count. Like it was spoken in Gavin's mind, but I think that it should still count. speaker-1: It counts. I think it counts. We also get Ari rolling her eyes at Gavin, and as a fellow eye roller, I gotta chuckle out of that. speaker-0: Rachel has some epic eye rolls that is honestly a good reason why you should try to watch some of these ⁓ episodes on YouTube because neither of us has a poker face to save our lives and we ⁓ we have some some good eye roll moments at some of these decisions that happen. speaker-1: Alright, let's count down our tropes. So first we have Installove, Hidden Identity times two, that's Ari's real identity slash his wife, and Smith is the butcher, Eyes on Me Okay, Danatos Good Girl, which brings our total in this book to five, maybe plus one from the bonus chapter, so six. speaker-0: Ha ha. Six. Yeah. I'm gonna say six. speaker-1: The afterlife Creepy Little Wise Kid, even though he was dead in this book at this point, but we call creepy little wise kid a trope. speaker-0: I think maybe it's usually like precocious child, but creepy little creepy little wise kid is good too. speaker-1: Cro precocious child, that's good. speaker-0: Ha ha ha. speaker-1: Resurrection, False Prophecy, Blood Oath, and I'm adding Playboy Prince to the list as well. speaker-0: And for the blood oath it's also a twisted oath. Yes. So is that its own trope or is that part of the blood oath? speaker-1: Good point. Good point. It's like a it's yeah. I think it's it's a one and a half. Yeah, one and a half, one point five. So what is that? It's one we're two for hidden identity. So one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, and a half. Eleven and a half tropes. speaker-0: One and a half. All right. I'll take it. speaker-1: We also have a number of theories that we've discussed in this deep dive, but before we run down the list as just kind of to recap what our top theories are, what are you expecting out of the incendiary? speaker-0: Okay, so I am hoping for quite a few things, but this is like kind of my whole wish list. So I I recognize that not all of this might happen in the incendiary, right? So maybe this is like my wish list for the Silvarin series, because some of this might not actually get resolved immediately. But some of the things that I'm hoping for, I want to learn what shady shit Simeon is up to. I don't believe anything he says, and I don't trust his bullshit propaganda. But I want to understand if he's just after power or if there's anything more to his scheming. speaker-1: Right, like if they're like if he has good intentions, but he's just a flawed person. speaker-0: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Like, I I don't know. But I don't trust him at all. I want to see Elias and Ari team up to fight against the future that's been forced on them by what I assume are ill intentions. Mm-hmm. Okay. So again, I don't know about them like as love interests. I don't know. I think that Ari's gonna have a really hard time, falling for anyone that isn't Gavin given this like pull, this like physical pull that she has towards him. But I do think that she might like Ilias. You know, like I think that they'll become like kind of a team. ⁓ I want Ari to unlock her missing memories so that we can learn more about her feelings for Gavin before she went to sleep. I wanna see things from her point of view. Mm-hmm. ⁓ I want to learn who Ari really is and where her power comes from. Mm-hmm. Is she a god? Is she just a powerful princess slash queen? You know? Mm-hmm. I want to learn where Molokai and Simeon sourced their magic. Was it the volcano? Was it something else? And obviously I want Gavin and Ari to finally bang. That's my number one though. That's That's what I wanna see in the incendiary. Okay. Like the rest of this stuff, take your time. We can learn it over the course of the series. But I really wanna see some of this tension, this like overwhelming tension Yeah. To resolve in the incendiary. So I'm crossing my fingers for that one at least. speaker-1: Yeah, I agree. All right, let's give a rundown of our theories. So we've got a pretty long list here. I'll start us off. So Ari and Gavin are fated mates. Ari is a god, either the thirteenth missing member of the Salvarin, or the original god, higher and more ancient than the Salvarin. The language of the Salvarin is how you access their power. Simeon and Molokai source their power from the volcanoes. Gavin will become God of the Underworld. Ari can see souls and can travel between worlds and realms. Ari and Gavin have matching abdominal scars, and they both have had some form of power surgically removed from them, which is how they got those scars. Molokai is stealing souls and goodness from people, which is how he is building his army of insidians. speaker-0: And there is a magical element to the land, which is why Ari is so drawn to Waimara and why Simeon and Malachi split the country between north and south. The coffin in Ari's dream was a memory from her four hundred year sleep under Simeon's spell. The warm thing next to Ari in that dream was her cat, Shira number one, or OG Shira, if you will. And I think when Ari meets Ilias, she will not like him at first, turned off by his arrogance. and from missing Gavin, but she'll find herself liking him more as she gets to know him. So kind of a theory about like Elias's character. I'll also add the abdominal scar. I do think that maybe some power might have been taken from her, but I also kind of had that theory about like a baby. I don't know. I'm still not completely convinced that that wasn't somehow involved just because we got that very speaker-1: Okay. All right. speaker-0: strong imagery in that scene of like some kind of traumatic, reproductive like something was going on when she got her period that made me think that there's there's more going on there. So I still have something in my brain that's telling me that like maybe that's a some kind of a C-section scar. But it could also still be tied to power, right? Mm-hmm. 'Cause we know that people that power is passed through generations. Uhhuh. Like genetically. So if they stole her baby, they could also have been stealing power. speaker-1: Right. Yeah. speaker-0: So it can be both. That's our motto. That's always our motto. Why not both? speaker-1: Why not both? Well, that brings us to the end of our deep dive for The Silversmith by LJ Claren. But don't worry, our coverage of the Silvarin doesn't end here. We'll be welcoming LJ Claren onto the podcast soon. So definitely send us your burning questions that you want us to ask her. We'll be providing a short summary episode of The Silversmith for anybody who needs just a mini reminder recap before reading The Incendiary. And of course we'll be deep diving book two, The Incendiary, after it comes out in September. speaker-0: If you've enjoyed this episode, we'd love if you could please take a few minutes to leave us a five-star review. And we're a new podcast, and every review and follower helps so much. And we also want to get to know you. So follow us on social media, join our community at Deep Trip Podcast, and drop us a comment with your theory on what's motivating the Insidians. speaker-1: Alright, see you next week for our single episode coverage of Practical Magic by Alice Hoffman. speaker-0: Bye.