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Kate White: I Came Back for You · Storied Account with Jen Jumba

• Jennifer Jumba: This is Story to Count with Jen Jumba. In conversations with writers, something magical happens. And as readers, we begin to see them as human beings and not just the name on the spine of a book. My hope is through these conversations, you learn about their craft and them as a person, and you'll become like me, fiercely loyal and want to read their current book, entire backlist, any future book or any book they blurb. And when you see their name, you'll want to support them, not only as incredible storytellers, but also the thoughtful individuals you have come to know. And I'm so lucky today because I am joined by Kate White. Kate White is the New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of 19 novels of suspense, ⁓ 11 standalone psychological thrillers, including I Came Back for which just published last week, Congrats, ⁓ and Eight Bailey Wiggins Mysteries. ⁓ Her work has been described as intoxicating psychological thrillers with twisty and unexpected plots. And yes, while you as a reader or me as a reader cannot stop turning the pages of her book, it is her characters who are known as relatable, engaging, and nuanced. A former Glamour Magazine Top 10 College Women's Contest winner and cover girl, Kate had a long career in the media world, which included running five national magazines. For 14 years, she was the editor in chief of Cosmopolitan, which under her became the most successful magazine, a single copy sales in the US. Though she loved her magazine career, she decided to leave several years ago to concentrate full time on her other passion, writing suspense fiction. Kate's first mystery, If Looks Could Kill, was a Kelly Ripa book club pick, number one bestseller on Amazon and an instant New York Times bestseller. She's been nominated for an International Thriller Writers Award in the fiction category and her books have been published in over 30 countries. Kate is a frequent speaker at libraries, bookstores and conferences. She's appeared on many television shows, including The Today Show, CBS This Morning, Good Morning America, Morning Joe and CNN's Quest Means Business. She's also the author of several bestselling career books, including I Shouldn't Be Telling You This and the groundbreaking Wall Street journal bestseller, why good girls don't get ahead, but gutsy girls do. I always marvel when I read Kate's brief bio to anyone because as accomplished as Kate is in whatever she does, she's just as kind a person. I found her to be down to earth. She remembers what I said and asked thoughtful follow-up questions and has a genuine love for what she does, which is infectious. And Kate has been incredibly kind and encouraging me with this podcast. a relatively new passion project. Kate is an avid traveler, spends each winter with her husband at their home in Uruguay. She holds an honorary doctorate of letters from her alma mater, Union College, where she gave the 2022 commencement address. And I'm so glad she's here to talk about I Came Back For You, her latest, unput downable book. Kate White: ⁓ thank you, Jen. Wow. Sorry, the bio is so long. Jennifer Jumba: I'm super excited to talk about I Came Back for You. Can you introduce us ⁓ to the main characters? Kate White: Yeah, it's the story really of a woman named Bree Winter who is living in Uruguay where I actually live in the winter time with a fairly new partner of a couple of years who's Argentinian and she has spent eight years trying to recover from the murder of her daughter. And one night, end of first chapter, ⁓ it's the story really of a woman named Bree Winter who is living in Uruguay where I actually live in the winter time with a fairly new partner of a couple of years ⁓ Argentinian and she has spent eight trying to recover from the murder of her daughter. And one night, end of first chapter, ⁓ her ex-husband shows up at her and is there to tell her that the serial killer who ⁓ is thought to have murdered their daughter has given a deathbed in which he said that yes, he killed four college women, but ⁓ not their daughter. her ex-husband shows up at her door. She has not set eyes on him in seven years, and basically is there to tell her that the serial killer who is thought to have murdered their daughter has given a deathbed confession in which he said that yes, he killed four college women, but not their daughter. And so. Even though Bree is trying to rebuild her life, she feels she has no choice but to go back to the United States, to the small college town where her daughter was murdered, and figure out the truth Even though Bree is trying to rebuild her life, she feels she has no choice but to go back to the United States, to the small college town where her daughter was murdered, and figure out the truth because the only way she has been able to heal a little bit is knowing that the killer is in prison and to be able to never see his name again and put that behind her a tiny, tiny bit. She's still, as you can imagine, so grief-stricken. But boy, going back. opens up all sorts of cans of worms. Not only is she there at the place, but she's with her ex-husband too. Jennifer Jumba: Right. I was struck by, I can't even begin to imagine how somebody would ever overcome that. And I know people have to a certain extent or learn to live with it, but that all comes down like a house of cards when that doorbell rings and she opens the door. Like you have seven years, you think you've got a quote unquote handle on something. And I can't imagine. what that must have felt like and you captured it I think really well in that scene with her ex-husband telling her this you know confession deathbed confession from the serial killer. Kate White: Right. You know, I read a quote that I so moved by about grief. It was by a guy who had lost his mother and eventually he was swept up in the Holocaust, but his mother had died when he was young, very young, and she ⁓ died before the Holocaust. But he said, grief is the lung you begin to breathe through. And I think that's so true. Everyone I know who's lost a child has told me that you do get to function in the world again after a number of years, but you are never the same. And I actually had some prolonged grief in my life that, you know, even today I struggle from. And I tapped into that and it was very helpful to do. And it's just so hard. Sometimes it's really hard to get back into any kind of groove again. But for Bree, she has made some strides. It's been eight years, and her marriage ended after seven years because of the daughter's death. And now she's just going to be swept back into it. So she has to figure out what really happened. And of course, at first they wonder, maybe the guy's just Jennifer Jumba: Hmm. Kate White: lying because he's a masochist and he's evil and he wants to see them twist in the wind, but she doesn't know. Jennifer Jumba: Right, and think ⁓ grief hard. And even if there's some sort of resolution that you know that the person who did it was held accountable and in prison, and then to know that ⁓ what thought was not true and how that just is so disruptive. And it's almost like those eight years have never happened. And she's right back to that very same period in time. Kate White: Yeah, and also being dragged back into anything in the past. funny little thing is that I was trying to figure out where to set the book. had this idea. It's one of those ideas, and I'm sure other authors have talked to you about this, where sometimes you do see a headline and you start to play with it. What if, what if? But other times it appears full-born from your head. And like Athena, and this idea just popped into my head. And I had been thinking a little bit of setting it maybe in the Midwest and going out there to do some research. I haven't spent a huge amount of time there because I'm from the Northeast. And then I was asked, as you said in the bio, to give my college commencement address. And my college is a college that's over 200 years old. And I was in the first co-ed class. Even though they've got Nobel Prize winners at this college, think they go, hey, Kate was in our first co-ed class on the anniversary of that. Let's give the address. And while I was there, I suddenly realized, ⁓ my God, I've got the perfect campus to set the book at. I took some pictures, and then the next year I went up again. for graduation just to be able to experience it without the stress of speaking to thousands of people. And I felt a little guilty because I thought, wow, maybe they'll regret having asked me to give the address because I used the campus in the book. But I disguised it a little bit. But just for me going back there into the past, even without it being fraught in any way, it's still tough to go back. And so Breeze got All of that, she's going back to where her daughter died and to her past so long ago after so much, there's been so much water under the bridge. Jennifer Jumba: Right. And then to have to relive the fact, because this is brought up in the book, that Brie doesn't have the best of relationships with her daughter. That they're still trying to figure out kind of where they fit ⁓ and things that are not known. But as she's back on that campus and talking to people that knew her daughter, realizing, ⁓ my gosh, I didn't know that my daughter liked this or did this. Kate White: Yeah, you know, one of the things that's hard about being the mother of a daughter, and I have both a son and a daughter, is that I think, and I was the editor of a parenting magazine once, and sometimes girls can be, you know, much more complex. And when I was at Cosmo, I had the most wonderful, group of young women who worked as editorial assistants and they moved up to assistant editors. Jennifer Knoll, the brilliant thriller writer ⁓ worked for me there. And one day I did a meeting with all of them, just picking their brains, and I remember so many of them were said that they felt so guilty because they'd been so mean to their mothers. And all through their teen years and even through college. And so I saw that as, you know, that is a reality. happened. I think women, young women, as I explored this once, not for the book, for something else, someone said to me, they've kind of been empowered through all these shows like Housewives of New Jersey and whatever, to sort of let that flip the table side of them out. And it's made them different towards their mothers than maybe a number of generations ago, where there was like, you got to respect your mother. And So Bree's daughter, Melanie, she and her mother had a fraught relation. Not always, you know, when she was three or four, she and her mother got along, they read together. But then once the teen years came, yikes. her daughter was just, I think, starting to see and become a different person. when she died. So Bree's got to, one, come to peace with maybe her daughter would have come around and fully loved her. ⁓ What else doesn't she know about her daughter? Can she find anything in this journey when she's back on campus that will help her understand her daughter more? Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, you referenced that ⁓ daughter, Melanie, is a terrific writer, ⁓ writer, writes haiku. And ⁓ some of those poems and being able to glimpse meaning from her daughter's work and then wanting to find more of her work through her ⁓ ⁓ campus years later to see if she can also better understand. Because sometimes we write things that we're feeling. or experiencing that we don't always have, I want to say oral language for if that kind of makes sense. ⁓ Kate White: Mm-hmm, right. You know, it's interesting because one of the things that I realized was playing underneath my desire to write this particular plot was that years ago when I was in the magazine business, I met a woman whose daughter had been killed in that big, plane crash because of a bomb in Lockerbie. And the mother had decided that one way to pay tribute to her daughter, she was a writer, Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ Kate White: she self-published some of her daughter's And yet, I think she was close to her daughter. I think her daughter was a really sweet girl. That mother wasn't going to go through any writing and find out, whoa, what's going on here? And I think Brie wants to see if maybe on campus, there's still through, on some digital platform, there's still some writing of her daughter from classroom. work. I think she's probably wondering, I hope I don't find anything that I don't like because there's she just doesn't know her daughter and that is so painful. But it happens you have no guarantee with your kids it that you will have necessarily a close relationship with you. can do everything you can. But there's no guarantee they are different people. They're hardwired a certain way. Jennifer Jumba: I think it's fascinating because I think about the relationship I have with my parents and always love them. ⁓ it wasn't until I kind of got past those ⁓ years where I ⁓ a lot, I slammed a lot of doors, that I like them, that I enjoy spending time with them. I mean, once you kind of get through that process, just always kind and supportive and Kate White: Yes! Yeah. It's really. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: my sister and I like tons of opportunities to learn and see things. But at the same time, they're your parents. So of course, whatever they say can't possibly be right. They have no life experience, right? ⁓ So Kate White: And as teenagers, are just, you're tough to deal with. I have a really lovely relationship with my daughter, but we had some difficult teen years. remember many years ago when I was single, I tried to do kind of eco trips on my own and I worked for a number of weeks. My boss gave me three weeks off and I worked on a penguin project in South America in Punta Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ wow. Kate White: Argentina and it wasn't, it's not actually far from our home here. In fact, our home, it's on the beach and it's called Las Pinguinos, meaning the penguins. And apparently penguins ages ago used to come up on the beach. And I wrote to the woman who runs the penguin project. She still runs it. And she said, ⁓ my God, those are the same penguins from Punta Tumbo. But what was funny when we were down there, we were tagging them for research and there would be the little chicks and then there would be the adults. And then on a separate beach were the teenagers. And we went down one day to try to deal with them. And you wouldn't want to go near them. They were so obnoxious and mean. And then they were molting. And they had these like almost mohawks the way teenagers would. And so I guess all species have some tough times with teenagers. Jennifer Jumba: You That's true. You this book is about a tough subject, ⁓ a young girl who was And at the same time, you capture Bree's sense of humor because, she goes back, ⁓ she sees her ex-husband, her ex-husband now a girlfriend, Lisa. But like just some of the ways like that Bree describes Lisa in her mind is, Her lips were artificially buoyant enough to save her if she found herself shipwrecked on the high seas one day. Kate White: Yeah, I loved giving her that dark sense of humor, which she says has been missing in action for a while. It's actually funny because one of the lines she says about this woman, Lisa, is, don't care if she's stuck in an effing mineshaft. And Lisa Unger, who I know you've interviewed, one of my closest friends, she took a picture of that page and circled and said, you don't mean this about me, do you? Because it's the name Lisa. Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Of course not. Kate White: Yeah, yeah for someone like Brie I think for all of us sometimes you go to humor because at least it's it's you're not wallowing in your grief and You know, it's just part of the journey for her one thing I really enjoyed about This psychological thriller and others. I've written is that I I like to make make them who done it's to I Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Kate White: I like the journey as a psychological thriller, my instinct is for the mystery. And so part of that journey for Brie is to figure out if Rock didn't do it, who did? Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: Who Yeah and that that's what keeps me going from one page to the next i can't put it down cuz i have to know ⁓ and you just do such a great job of just capturing. ⁓ The things that do normally but ⁓ how do i this aren't always captured in a book that make sense like the. ⁓ the gestures we do you talk about like pre growing up and her mom began her day with coffee on the padded arm of a chair in the kitchen. I just think about that and that's that. I ordinary but you capture it just brings the characters to life for you know as a reader I can feel like I'm kinda watching down in a fly on the wall so to speak. ⁓ Kate White: Yeah, there are couple big thriller writers out there who really pare it down and I respect them because their books are readable. But I like a little touch of what makes it real. ⁓ Years and years ago when I was at Cosmo, I say years and years ago, I've only been gone about 13 years, but it was farther back than that. I got a letter from a young woman who wanted to be an intern and she wrote me such a great letter. And I often say to young people, if you are pitching someone, don't just make it about you. In contrast, I'd gotten another letter from someone wanting an internship saying, just came back after a year traveling abroad after college graduation. And I finally decided I'm ready now for an internship. I'm like, well, what makes you think we're ready for you? But this woman wrote the most beautiful letter about how She wanted so much to work at Cosmo. She loved it. She said, I remember reading it because she was only 16 and her mother didn't want her to be reading it. I remember reading it under the covers with a flash flight in my mismatched pajamas. And boy, she had me at mismatched pajamas. It was such a little detail. To me, it's like the padded arm, padded arm of a chair. You don't have to go overboard. You don't have to say it was covered with chins and worn in the seed and my mother got it from an antique store. It's just little details for me make me feel I'm in the room. And I like to do that. Even if it's just describing the clink of a glass being set on the counter. For me, that's important as a reader too. And sometimes I don't care if you maybe skim over those a little bit, but they're there if you want them. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. It you also did it again when Brie meets up with Morgan, who I hope you'll introduce us to when we once I say this, that they're sitting at a diner, at the table ⁓ and picks up the salt shaker and absently draws a circle, a couple of circles at the table with the bottom. And we've all done that. We've all sat there and fiddled with something and, and capturing that nuance ⁓ as a writer. just want to say thank you. Kate White: Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: as a reader and how much I appreciate that sense of realness, capturing those nuances, those things that we do all the time that, okay, this is why your characters are relatable. Because I've sat there several times and I've done the very same thing. ⁓ Kate White: ⁓ Yeah, thank you for saying that, Jim, because as I was picturing them at the booth, I wanted, I tried to get into Morgan's head and what would she be doing and what little gesture. And I think there was something just evocative that I've seen people do that with a salt shaker. And so after I did it, those are sometimes the things that an editor and agent might suggest you trim, but I always fight for a certain number of them. Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. Yeah, no, that's awesome. So can you tell us a little bit about Morgan and kind of her background to the story? Kate White: Yeah, well, one of the things that unfolds for Brie, once, ⁓ you know, not giving too much away, you know, once it becomes pretty clear that Rock did, Calvin Rock did not murder their daughter. She has to figure out who did it. And there's still a chance he might've, but it's looking like he didn't. And Jennifer Jumba: No spoilers. Kate White: there is a young woman that comes to her and gives her some interesting information about something that happened to her, and she wants to verify it by speaking to Morgan. so that's just part of the journey. one of the things, Bree was a book editor, and she was on the career path. that book editors go on where eventually maybe you become head of your own imprint. But when her daughter died, she stepped off that. But she does freelance editing. And so she always carries a little notebook with her. She's interested in writing things down. And as we get closer to the end, we see that because of that notebook and some of the things she's written down, she's able to look back and sort of start to see some things come to make sense to her. Jennifer Jumba: When you were writing this story, said that this idea came to you kind of fully formed, right? And it was the setting, when you did deliver the commencement address that kind of reassured you that this is the perfect setting. How do you go about writing a story, in terms of do you keep little notebooks around like Agatha Christie did with, pieces and parts? Do you write longhand? do you always have a computer? Kate White: Well, it's funny because speaking of Lisa Unger, I know that Lisa is a total pancer. I am a sort of combo because I always know in advance the gist of the plot, who the killer is going to be, how I generally know my big twist. Now with this book, Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Correct. Kate White: I didn't know the killer until I was maybe at least a few chapters in, but I had a sense of how she was going to get there. And then what I do is, I'll just show you this, I plot out ⁓ four chapters while I use one of these notebooks. And then I plot out generally four chapters at a time. I'll divide the page into a grid of four sections. And so now I know where I'm going. I know who the killer is. I know the main character. I usually know the inciting incident too, where all the action gets kicked off. And I know the twists. So then I'm taking it four chapters at a time. starting to get some pacing going, starting to see where my inciting incident has to happen, where the middle is gonna be. And so I think of myself as both a plotter and a panster. Lisa always say, there's such a thrill every day of sitting down and ⁓ seeing gonna happen. ⁓ And I agree, there's a magic that comes with writing where you just, all of a sudden as you're working, your brain spews something out that you just think, where did that come from? And it's really almost orgasmic. And as a former editor of Cosmo, I'm allowed to say that. And yet I have to have those key things down because Jennifer Jumba: Absolutely. Is that because of, is that because of your background as an editor, when you're putting together an issue, you have to know how many pages, how many ads, how many stories, how many words, the pictures that go, I would think that, that that's kind of how your brain would work. Kate White: ⁓ that's a good. Yeah, I think it's partly that, it's partly because I'm a Virgo. I like to have things. I also feel, not Lisa certainly, but there are a few writers I've read who've said they're... Pancers. And they are sometimes the people when I get to the end I go, what? I feel like it just jumped the shark somehow, like, wow. Jennifer Jumba: You Kate White: And I think, you know, if you had plotted your book out, would be making more sense to me now. So I feel if I, I'm plotting, I know where I'm going, I'm not gonna be pushed into a corner. I'm not gonna find myself. with some ludicrous ending. I've worked that out. And yet I still get the magic of writing by letting chapters then happen a little bit as I write. And then you get those surprises and those, I just remember there was one book where I was writing and then I all of a sudden went, oh no, he's gonna die too. And you're like, where did that come from? Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, I think it's magical. Whatever process ⁓ that you use, ⁓ say continue because ⁓ at it. I mean, it's been a remarkable ⁓ in terms of writing books that just continue to be bestsellers. And, ⁓ came back to you is going to be no different, I'm sure. ⁓ talking about... Sure. Absolutely. Kate White: Can I ask you a question, Just from your perspective, reading so many books for your job, can you sometimes sense when the ending was pulled out of the hat? Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Sometimes I can sense that sometimes I can feel like, that was just like super neat and tidy. Like, because you like you had to be done. You can sense that. And then there are those who write like you and Lisa who, I get to the end and I was like, how did I not see that? And so I will go back and kind of flip through and I'm like, Oh, so yeah, I Kate White: Ha Ahhhh! Yeah, you bring up another great point. You have to drop some clues that your reader's gonna miss, ideally. Though they often don't mind if they guess the ending. That's part of the fun. Sometimes they'll guess it, sometimes they won't. But one thing I always loved about the writer Ruth Rendell, who wrote many standalones under the name Barbara Vine, but she also wrote the Inspector Wexford series. I just have reread a couple of them. She died a number of years ago, but ⁓ boy, she always had the clues in there. You just miss them. Whereas Petey James, as much as I respected her, there was also some, often something you discovered at the 11th hour, which was pivotal. And so it was hard to guess because you didn't have all the information. And I like to feel as if I've given the information so that when somebody writes a review and they go, never saw the ending coming, they would add, but I should have. To me, that's what you want. Jennifer Jumba: Exactly. Right. And that's how I feel when I read one of your books or Lisa's books. And I've read enough of them where I should know because I know that you all are sprinkling stuff along. And I was like, one of these days, one of these days I'll get it. But I think that that's the great thing about being able to read, books like yours is to understand, not just the who done it, but the why done it, ⁓ which is fascinating because we all like to think, people are good. Kate White: Yeah. Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: and people do good things. ⁓ But then when, when people rationalize, you try to understand, okay, I can understand. don't agree with what they did, but I can understand why they did. Kate White: Yeah, just before. Yeah, and it's, you there are moments where you think, God, would another human being really do this? And yet, you know, I've been watching this wonderful series on Peacock, the death investigator with Barbara Butcher. Barbara Butcher, met the year I started writing fiction. She was a death investigator in New York, 5,000 death scenes she's investigated. We became really good friends from the first time I interviewed her. I've interviewed her. one of my books and I talked her into going to my agent and writing her memoir called What the Dead Know and ⁓ she not only published the book which is absolutely wonderful but she's on the show now that Dick Wolf did called ⁓ The Death Investigator with Barbara Butcher they do two crime and now they they've just get the green lit a pilot based on her life. So it's so exciting. But this morning when I was exercising, I was watching one of the episodes and it was about this ordinary woman. She was a nurse and she was married to this nice guy and she decided she was having an affair. She didn't want to be married to him anymore. And she drugged him, shot him and then chopped up his body and dumped it in the Chesapeake Bay in three suitcases. See, it's just, you cannot believe it. That's what happens and that's why we get to make a living being novelists writing about crime because it happens. Jennifer Jumba: It does happen and that's why I always want to stay on your good sides because you all know a whole lot of stuff. ⁓ But it is fascinating. We just never know what people are capable of. Kate White: ⁓ yeah. ⁓ Yeah, now one thing interesting Barbara says, you when I was first interviewing her, you know, she did a lot with DNA. She did the DNA investigation for 9-11, oversaw that. she would tell you, you know, DNA was, you know, of course the big game changer. But what she would say now is cell phone data and CCTV have changed everything. It is very difficult. to get away with a crime. And we've seen some big cases lately where that's happened. Coming up with a perfect crime, perfect murder is not easy. Thank God. Jennifer Jumba: No, yeah, that's exactly right. It's funny because talking about the role that technology plays and how it's really hard to live off the grid because you leave this digital footprint, wherever you go, ⁓ whatever do, and all these algorithms that now know what I like or what I'm looking at. It's just kind of creepy. Kate White: Right? It's so creepy, it really is. And AI today is just so scary. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, with with no guardrails, no guidelines. The other thing about this book that's really interesting is talking about Brie and, that whole like, ⁓ our nervous system, That, when we find ourselves in danger, it's, know, typically, fight, flight, freeze or fawn. And the fawn part is relatively new to me, something I learned about in the last couple of years. ⁓ Kate White: Yeah. I tell me. Jennifer Jumba: And so what I found was fascinating is Brie looking at, how she handled the situation, eight years ago when her daughter was killed and how she's going back now. And as she's determined not to fawn this time, ⁓ doesn't want to play into hands and ⁓ wants to be more of fighter. Can you talk a little bit about that? Kate White: Yeah. Well, it's actually something I only discovered when I was researching the book and I tend to do a lot of research. I've interviewed Lee Child and he says he does no research. I doubt it, but he's so fab. Maybe his head can produce all that, but I have to research and I like researching. really enjoy it. And when I was running Cosmo and first started writing thrillers, I didn't have the time for as much research as I like, so now I really so enjoy it. And as I was researching the idea of, I forget why even fight or ⁓ flight, you know, the typical responses we have. because I was thinking in general just about Bree and who she was going to be. ⁓ And I saw that in addition to ⁓ flight freeze and ⁓ flight, there was this new thing called fawn that people were talking about, psychologists. And I thought, wow, yes, I could so see where that might be happening with me, where you almost become a little bit obsequious because you want the investigators or the cops to do everything for you. And you don't want to look like you're being a bitch or difficult to deal with. you this obsequious behavior as an, because of the end game, because ⁓ want it to work in your favor, but at the same time, it may not allow you to ask the right questions, insist on what needs to happen. ⁓ you're so shell shocked, you're just sort of going along with the flow on automatic pilot. But this time, eight years later, Bre knows, hey, this is what I was doing. She learned it from a therapist she went to afterwards. And she realizes, now I have the chance to not fawn. And that's what partly why she sets out to go behind the back of the police and speak to Morgan to. do some digging, to research online, to find out what she can, because this time she's not gonna fawn. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, think even earlier on, she talks about, dressing a certain way before she's meeting with the police so that she's taken seriously. And I think, wow, these are things that you just don't think of. You think like somebody's shell shocked, somebody's ⁓ experiencing a tremendous of grief. And at the same time, figuring out what I need to wear, like what does one wear to something like that? ⁓ Kate White: Right. Yeah, but I had experienced myself in New York City. I had something happen that was really disastrous and I felt I have to dress like somebody who is together is believable that comes across a certain way. just felt ridiculous, but I knew this is going to be better. Not that I'd ever dress like a hooker or anything like that. Yeah, please. Jennifer Jumba: Right. Kate White: But I knew I had to come across a certain way if I wanted to be viewed as most credible, as someone that they wanted to help, and it's awful. One of the things I, one of the writers I really like is Malcolm Gladwell, and I've read all his, and ⁓ the one he wrote is called, ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Me too. Kate White: Talking to strangers, think it is. And it's about how one of the chapters is about Amanda Knox and how if something isn't, if someone isn't behaving as we think they should, we make a certain kind of judgment. And Amanda Knox was, she was innocent, but she was nervous and she acted a little silly that night. And, or if people don't act grief-stricken, you are judged a certain way. And I thought that chapter he did was very powerful about how we, our perception, affects how we then act towards that person. And Brie realizes that she knows that she's got to look the part and sound the part, even though she doesn't want to fawn. She's got to come across a certain way if she wants to make sure that the police do everything they can do. Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ other thing I think that you capture so well in this book is that, the death, the murder of her daughter is this big, huge life event ⁓ and how ⁓ in our when big things happen, that that's how we tend to define them. there's like before the pandemic, after the pandemic, before this, after this, and there's that constant thread ⁓ or, what hovers underneath Kate White: Right. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: it has happened and even though you're living, it's still there haunting you and at any point. Kate White: Yeah, even as you say it, I don't think I was so conscious sometimes of it, but through the book, there's a lot of eight years ago, eight years ago, because everything that is the before and after for her eight years ago. as she says, she spent a few years in a deep depression. Then finally, just because she wanted to have some life again, she Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Kate White: did her best to try and try to put on her pants and start working a little bit more and take part in life again. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, I mean, it's a conscious choice and it's, not easy, ⁓ ⁓ that we still do hard things. ⁓ But. Kate White: Right. you know, for her another big part of it was you find out very quickly when her first husband first arrives is that, you know, she found out within a year of their marriage that he was cheating on her. you know, he wanted to. have her forgiveness. said, you know, grief, stupid, but she just knew I can't deal with what I'm dealing with and be worried about him and, you know, checking his phone and going through his pockets. So she's lost the marriage too. And one of things she has to deal with when she goes back to this town, Cartersville is that she's going to spend time with him again. And that has been a big loss for her. And there she is exposed to him. And it's funny because Lisa, his girlfriend, isn't the reason he left the marriage. It was somebody else. she says Lisa has become this icon for her. She's the symbol of it. And she hates Lisa just from the get go. Jennifer Jumba: Hey Exactly. Yeah. Caesar in the hotel lobby and is already like, ⁓ shaking her head. Like this is who you chose. Okay. So. Kate White: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. He's got a big, you know, Louis Vuitton duffel bag. And, as Bree says, she's surprised she doesn't have it, you know, handcuffed onto her wrist. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. And at the same time, know, she, contrast that with this great guy, Sebastian, who ⁓ she met and they have ⁓ what to be this incredible relationship. And maybe there's something to be said about living, on a different continent, ⁓ new setting. mean, can't imagine living in the same town or something that horrible had happened. There's that sense of physical distance and time distance. ⁓ Kate White: You know what? You know, one of the things that I have re-think in the book is that when she first started going to, first it was to Argentina because Sebastian is from Buenos Aires, but then they decide to live in Uruguay, which a lot of Argentinians have second homes in Uruguay. She says that sometimes it was like grief had overslept and missed the flight. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, I was gonna bring that line up. That was such a, it's such a great line. Kate White: Yeah. And that was a line I had thought that before, because I felt that when I've been grief stricken, that sometimes when you travel, when you go someplace else, it's like, whoa, guess who isn't here right now? Guess who overslept? I'm not feeling any grief at this moment. So I actually asked a therapist to talk a little bit about that. And she said, Because I said, wow, know, it's just wonderful how you can leave it behind. She goes, well, no, if you're not dealing with it when you're away, you're just going to go back to it. That part of, you know, there's something called grief travel. And it's thought to be a way to help you deal with grief. But she said to me, no, you have to plan on when you travel to use that as a time to reflect and heal. not to just put it on your mind. And I thought, ⁓ gosh, I was thinking of writing an essay on that and I guess it doesn't bear out. Then lately I've been thinking, damn, you know what? I think my theory works. Yeah, you go away and there's a period where you're just not thinking about it and you come back and I don't think you start at the same point that you left at. But I don't have a PhD in psychology, so. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. Kate White: I guess I'm probably wrong, but it's always been great for me when I've been in a situation where I've dealt with a loss to travel, to be away. And I don't mean you have to go to another country, just be someplace that is wonderfully different and tranquil perhaps too. Jennifer Jumba: Absolutely. think there's a certain amount of new memories or memories are contained everywhere, right? When somebody is grief stricken in, the coffee shop right down the street that you used to always go to or the, all we went to this, you know, restaurant here, we used to, drive this way, all those things, right? So when you remove yourself from that physical space, I think there's something to be said about using that to kind of Kate White: Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: recalibrate ⁓ instead of that constant assault of those memories on your senses, your heart. Kate White: Yeah, absolutely. Right. That's a great word. That's a great word because when you've come back, you have recalibrated so you're not dealing with it the same way. Maybe you choose to avoid that place or at least when you pass it, it doesn't knock you off your feet the same way it did before. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, the other thing that you talk about in this book too is ⁓ you bring up mental health with Riley, one of the characters. So I think it's important that you address that. I I think I'm glad we're at a place where topics like that can be addressed. It's not the we don't talk about that. We don't see people like that. ⁓ So I just wanted to thank you for showing her perspective and the impact. Kate White: Yes. Yeah. ⁓ Riley. I know somebody who was attacked the way Riley was, and it just is so life changing. I mean, look at what what worse you the wonderful Elizabeth Smart has done lately by be so candid and not try to hide what happened to her. And the toll that takes is extraordinary. And I just have a lot of empathy for that character Riley. I really, really do. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, she was one of my favorite characters. just wanted to just like, just sit with her and like, you know, be present, hold space, Kate White: yeah. And you know what? When I was thinking of her, I sort of looked down and I saw their nails were bitten to the quick and you just realized that as much as she might look together up here, ⁓ she's tortured. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, and I guess, you how could you not be after experiencing something like that? Kate White: ⁓ Yeah. ⁓ Thank God we have a little bit of Logan in the book too, because he's a bit of the bad boy and there's something kind of. Jennifer Jumba: Ugh. Kate White: amusing about him. found like I as much as he screwed up, I liked him as a person I was, you know, intrigued by him. was he he as brief, briefs thinks he was a master at reading the room. He was incredibly charming. And there's something about a guy like that that's irresistible. We may regret dating them one day, but Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. But during the time we dated them, it was fantastic. Yeah. Kate White: Yeah, that was a different story, Jen. And I swear I'm not speaking from experience. Jennifer Jumba: Right, no, you know, it's not right what you know, never. ⁓ Kate White: Yeah. It's, you know, just talking about it, one of the things that struck me, I'm just finishing it's due 8 a.m. Monday morning, my next book. And I was, I don't think I was ever fully conscious of this before. And I don't know why, because this will be my 20th. I literally am in. the lives of my characters. It's such a habit for me. I've never even thought about it, but somebody asked me that at one point, and I realized I am in the room with them, I'm in the car with them, I'm at the table with them. And if I don't draw them completely, it's not their fault, they're there. Though sometimes, you know, I'll struggle a little bit forming the character, and I sometimes wait and then I'll see somebody on the street. I, years ago when I was writing a book called The Secrets You Keep, which is by the way, similar in title to a fantastic Netflix series right now called The Secrets We Keep, Nordic Noir, anyone wants there? I could not put together this one woman in my mind. And the book takes place in Saratoga and I was up in Saratoga doing some research, staying at this little inn called the Saratoga Arms. And I went out. Jennifer Jumba: there we go. Kate White: to the North Shore bookstore, which I love there. And I see this woman and it is the woman that I want to write about. And I discreetly take some photographs and then I go down the street to my favorite little bar bistro there, Boca Bistro. I'm sitting at the bar having my dinner and she comes in and I'm like, ⁓ my God, I took more pictures. And then finally I noticed her looking at me. And I thought, she must think I'm creepy. But I'm sure if she ever read the book, she did not recognize herself. But it was so great to have the character present itself that way. There she was for me. Jennifer Jumba: That's amazing. I heard Elizabeth Strout speak once and she talked about she was doing dishes, loading the dishwasher after dinner and she turned around and there was all of Kittredge fully formed standing. I mean, like it was nobody, it was like a figment of her imagination, but she was fully formed. She knew exactly who she was. And I just think how you all were able... Kate White: ⁓ ⁓ Well, it makes sense that she saw her in the kitchen too, because I think of all of them that way, guess. Wow, this amazing. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. Did they ever leave you once you're done writing a book? I mean, is Logan still hanging out with you because you're finishing your, you know, next book? Kate White: Well, Bailey Weggins, who's been in my eight mysteries, I'm actually working a little bit on another Bailey. She'll never leave me. But most characters, they say goodbye. But I think, to be honest, I Came Back for You is one of my favorite books I've ever done. And partly because I think this idea was sort of in the back of my mind for a long time, just a little root of it. And because I wrote about a character that's bit older than some of the characters I've written about, and it's just one of my favorites. I was moved writing it. And so I think Brie and Logan and Sebastian, too, I think they'll stay with me for a while. do. Jennifer Jumba: good, because they're gonna stay with me for quite a while too. Yeah. Yeah. And one of my coworkers is a huge fan of the Bailey Wiggins series and said to me, yeah, said to me yesterday, I'm gonna go back and reread that from the beginning. I'm like, have at it. Oh, yeah. Kate White: ⁓ thank you, Chad. ⁓ tell her there's another one. Yeah, on Facebook, a lot of women tell me they go back and read them. And then they're like, where is another Bailey? So it's been fun to get back with Bailey and to just be in her head a little bit. She's a saucy girl, that Bailey. Jennifer Jumba: Absolutely. And I know I want to channel my inner Bailey for sure some days. So there's a couple interesting lines as we're finishing up. One is ⁓ Brie talking about ⁓ truth, that maybe you don't get to the truth without first thinking the worst about everyone. Kate White: HAHAHAHA Jennifer Jumba: That's a line where I read and I was like, okay, drop my Kate White, you got this. Kate White: Yeah, I just came out with that. It wasn't even a line I was thinking of as I wrote it. It just came out. I think what for me it means that, and maybe this isn't true of everybody, but I'm always looking at the layers of people and the nuances. And sometimes I may go to a place like, could she really be this or could she be that? And maybe it's not fair to the person. But when I reined it back in, I realized maybe if I hadn't fought all those things, I wouldn't be back at this place. And so I don't know that would be true for everybody, but for Brie, it's true. Jennifer Jumba: And then there's another line, according to a British psychologist, that guilt occurs when our own moral standards don't match up to what we've done. Kate White: Yeah, that I actually found through some research and I thought it's so powerful and because Brie feels some guilt at the end because of one thing that happened and she's got to figure out how to deal with the guilt. And I thought that was a great explanation. It's because what you did does not match this inner set of rules you have for yourself. And It isn't even the rules that are necessarily out there that the world has told you to live by. It's the ones you have for yourself. And right. And so she, she gets some information that allows her to determine that some of it is just admitting it. Some of it is, you know, maybe apologizing. Some of it is making amends. And I thought that was very helpful to read that there are some ways you can deal with guilt. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, your own moral compass. Kate White: One of the, maybe the worst things is to not acknowledge it, to just kind of push it away because you don't grow as a person unless you go, you know what, I should have made that call. I shouldn't have said that. Why did I say it? Why did I do that? Those are such important questions. And those are the questions that mystery and thriller writers ask all the time of their characters. And they're good to ask of yourself. ⁓ As is the question, what if? I'm sure you've had other people talk about how what if is a powerful tool for authors. And I found it a great question for life too. What if I said no to that invitation? What if I did move to San Francisco? I tried to do more of that in my own life instead of just with the characters on the page. Jennifer Jumba: Right. Yeah, no, that's great. It makes me think a little bit about, I think it's Simon Sinek that talks about why and kind of drilling down and drilling down and drilling down to truly understand, which also is like, it almost reminds me of like that, the toddler, the two year old, why are we doing this? Why, why, why? But like when you do it as an adult to reframe things that you've done or experienced to provide some sort of clarity or resolution, I think that's pretty great too. Kate White: Yeah. Yes. Right. Yeah, I've heard the, you know, the five whys that just don't ask the first, ask the next for two and see what you come up with. Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, I would, I would talk to you the whole rest of the afternoon or evening for. It's so great. Kate White: And this is so great. Can I look forward to seeing you at Thriller Fest this year? Do you think? Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. So we're at at story's end. This is the final five questions. ⁓ What is your favorite or most unique thing in Uruguay that you can't find in the United States? Kate White: ⁓ okay, good. The way they make something called provoleta, where they use provolone cheese, they fry it in a pan with a little oregano, and they get a crisp crust on it. And I've never seen that made anyplace else. I had it for lunch today, and it's fantastic. Jennifer Jumba: I was thinking you were going to say it as it how do you say it media lunas? Kate White: ⁓ media lunis, yes, that pastry. Yes, there, but they're not as good as croissants to tell you the truth. They're kind of similar, but they're a little more doughy as Brie says in the book. Jennifer Jumba: I was like, ⁓ I have to find those now, because they sound amazing. Gotcha. Cosmo has been known for quizzes, right? Famous quizzes. What is one that you wanted to create and didn't have a chance to or one that you would create today? Kate White: Ha ha ha! ⁓ wow. Gee, let me think for one second. Jennifer Jumba: Sure. Kate White: One of the things I learned at Cosmo from a subtitle we did once was don't believe everything you think. And that was very powerful for me. So maybe there's a quiz that helps you understand what you're believing about yourself that you shouldn't be believing. Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ love it. Probably would score probably really high on that one. Okay, also related to Cosmo, what fashion trends you hope never comes back? Kate White: ⁓ barrel-shaped blue jeans that are out now and those great coats that to me whoever's designing those for women and wow I just what are you thinking buddy? Jennifer Jumba: Absolutely. What is an unexpected life lesson that you have learned? Kate White: think for me one of the powerful things is ⁓ when you're deciding whether you do something or not, just go. Go to it. I don't mean saying yes to the party, ⁓ ⁓ hesitated once to go to see somebody because I had theater tickets ⁓ I missed a terribly an opportunity and I thought, I'll go in two days. And that happened a couple of years ago, and I just go now, I guess, is that lesson that I've learned. Jennifer Jumba: That's a great lesson. And then the final question, what song would you always include on a road trip playlist? Kate White: I would probably include, as crazy as this sounds, ⁓ a whole CD by Maria Callas. I love her singing. I love opera. And I would... Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ Kate White: I just love to hear her sing and I guess there are other singers I would like too, like Joan Baez, Bob Dylan, and people that I know from my youth. But the universal one that I would always want is something by Maria, an aria by Maria Callas. Probably from, yeah, probably from ⁓ Tosca. Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ there you go. ⁓ that's one of my favorite operas. Before I became a librarian, I worked at a classical radio station here in town. learned about opera working there and learned about Tosca and like talk about a badass, but like grew to appreciate the art form and the storytelling and Maria Callas, like her voice just Kate White: Really? ⁓ wow. Jennifer Jumba: like floats. don't know how else to describe it. It's completely visceral. Kate White: Yeah, there's nobody like it. Well, you've had an interesting life there, Jen. Radio personality. I mean, not radio personality per se, but somebody worked behind the scenes in radio. That's fantastic. Jennifer Jumba: Mm-mm. Yeah, yes, yeah. Thanks for reading. It was fantastic. ⁓ very varied background, ⁓ but you take Kate White: Jen, I once read something years ago when I was in the magazine business that said the average person has five careers and that was turned out not to be true. It was just something somebody had said. But now we do have many careers because we pivot. We've learned how to pivot. And I'm so happy I pivoted as much as I love running Cosmo. I love that I pivoted to writing suspense fiction. And I encourage everybody pivot if you want, go ahead, do it. Jennifer Jumba: Absolutely. Becoming a librarian was a complete career change and best thing I ever did, and career changes. think you'll agree with me or not necessarily easy, which is why so many people don't do it. They stay unhappy or miserable, but yeah, you're right. Pivot. Do it now. Don't wait. Yeah. Kate White: Exactly. And it's perfect because after COVID, we live in a world that is open to people pivoting. So if you're ever going to do it, do it now. Jennifer Jumba: Right. ⁓ So want to say a huge thank you to all of you who are listening today and to Kate ⁓ for us with a glimpse behind the scenes of another great book ⁓ and sure to pick up a copy of I Came Back for You Today. ⁓ To out who else is going to be a guest, go to storiedaccount.com. This is Storied Account with Jen Jumba.