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Summer Rewind: Don't Touch Me While I'm Cooking · Not Right Now

• 0:00
  It's unfair that you have to live with the person that you made kids with, and also have a relationship with them. That's three relationships in one, like roommate- Mm-hmm...
• 0:08
  partner, and co-parent, and at least two of those are very disgusting. [upbeat electronic music] Welcome to Not Right Now, the podcast about parenting through all of this.
• 0:21
  We'll be talking about/crashing out over topics like- Reproductive rights and who left this granola bar wrapper in their pocket before laundry, and/or stuffed into the couch, or just on their floor, and I'm asking who left it even though I know exactly who left it...
• 0:36
  digital footprints, and actual muddy footprints all over the floor, and hand prints on the glass. It's not an advice show. It's a you're not alone, and you're also not crazy for screaming in the shower kinda show.
• 0:49
  I'm Claire Zulkey from Evil Witches. And I'm Quinn Emmett from Important Not Important. You can find details on anything we talk about in the show notes, or at our website notrightnow.show.
• 1:01
  .show, and if you like what you hear today, please share it with a parent who needs it, or who might laugh and tell their kids to be quiet, and then drop us a nice little five-star review.
• 1:10
  And reminder, you can send questions or feedback to questions@notrightnow.show. [upbeat electronic music] I'm at home
• 1:26
  because it's a thousand fucking degrees outside, and I still don't have air conditioning. Though the nice people at Gradient,
• 1:33
  startup hardware company, they make heat pump air conditioners and heaters for your windows much better, are sending me a new one 'cause the fucking squirrels ate all my wires it turns out. [laughs] Oh, that sucks.
• 1:42
  I'm sorry. It was not their fault. It was not their fault, and they still sen- they are still sending me a new one, so it's very thoughtful. Fucking squirrels, man, but either way, it's so hot there. Yep.
• 1:51
  For once it's not boiling hot. It's really nice.
• 1:53
  Although our house has a weird, the way it gets light is that it always gets hot no matter what, so I feel bad that we are still relying on air conditioning even, like, on the days we shouldn't.
• 2:02
  This kind of blends into, like, our relationship chitchat. You know, I thought to myself, I walked outside of my office. I was there for a little bit, had to do some things, and I left. And as usual,
• 2:11
  loudly I stepped out and said, "Jesus Christ, it's hot." It's hard to react really any other way. I guess you could choose different words.
• 2:19
  But it made me think, you know, there's a scientist, wonderful, she's a practicing Christian and a scientist, which is interesting when you're working on climate change. She's the best. Mm-hmm. Her name is Dr.
• 2:30
  Katharine Hayhoe, down in Texas, and her whole thing is, and I have so much respect for, is the most important thing you can do about climate is to talk about it. Mm. And I think I've made this joke before where
• 2:43
  when it's, like, a warm day in December, I try really hard not... And people are like, "Oh, what a nice day." I'm like, "Don't fucking ruin it for them." Yeah. Don't tell them why, 'cause they're having a nice time.
• 2:54
  But on days like this here, this heat dome that's been sitting over apparently everywhere but your house for the past week- Well... I really find myself not talking about it, I think, enough.
• 3:05
  Because I try to put up boundaries between my various types of relationships, wife, kids, friends, whatever, who are just trying to go about their fucking days.
• 3:13
  Like, everything is coming down around us, and what, am I gonna make it worse? But it is the most important thing to be like, yes, have heat waves happened in the past? For sure. Does climate change make these
• 3:25
  more inevitable? Yeah, we're, like, 99% sure of that, and we are the ones who've created the bulk of climate change, so it's, yeah, and also they're gonna happen more.
• 3:34
  And I should just have those conversations more, but I've also tried to do things, prep people for it and go, "Can I give you the real real?"
• 3:41
  [laughs] But I do struggle with it, if I'm gonna come outside and yell about it. It feels so ch- so trite. You know, you're like, yeah, everyone fucking knows, and you know. Well, that's the thing.
• 3:50
  Everyone fucking does know. It's not 10 years ago, right? [laughs] But should I call even more attention to it? I don't know. I don't know.
• 3:56
  I will say, I don't know why more companies don't do this, and maybe they do and I just don't pay, they just don't pay attention.
• 4:01
  But I have a friend, and we ironically but not compete over when we get a call from the power company, uh, telling us that we can get peak savings hours.
• 4:10
  So, like, you can earn more if you, like, reduce electricity between 12:00 and 5:00. And then she and I show each other [laughs] what we saved by, you know, turning off all the things and whatever.
• 4:20
  And I always win, not to brag, but it's 'cause we have more house. But- Mm-hmm. Yeah... I don't know why people don't do that more. Why can't you incentivize and gamify, like, power savings?
• 4:29
  I don't know why that's not a thing, but, you know, I just, my idea of a good time might be different from others. Well, th- that's, you know, yeah. That's an understatement.
• 4:37
  But I feel like, you know, once, once we get to real, like, VPPs, virtual power plants,
• 4:43
  uh, you know, with smart meters and bidirectional charging from cars and chargers and smarter appliances and things like that at home, and batteries obviously, that kind of stuff will be... It, it already is possible.
• 4:54
  It's happening in Texas. California's got some of it, but the utilities, who by the way can use your fees, if you didn't know, to lobby against clean energy.
• 5:03
  They can take your money and use it for lobbying, which is completely fucking insane, 'cause they're monopolies. They often stand in the way of that kind of stuff, which is pretty awesome.
• 5:11
  I'm happy going about that forever. So yeah. What's something you've given up on standards-wise? Just not telling people about c- climate change. That's a family thing. You know, I don't know. It's such a weird thing.
• 5:21
  Like, I spend so much time at my job that I feel like when I walk away from my computer, I, I don't wanna talk about it much. Or health stuff, or whatever, but I should probably more. I don't know. It's a weird thing.
• 5:34
  Compartmentalization, I guess. I think I'm protecting myself. Well, how about family-wise, I guess is what I mean. Family, childcare, home, what's the word? Standards-wise. I think I've mentioned we're...
• 5:44
  I don't know if this is giving up. I mean, I've given up in a lot of places. I just say whatever mom wants most of the time, which is great.
• 5:51
  This morning the kids were refusing to empty the dishwasher, so I just went and sat out on the front porch and listened to the animals with the dogs instead of yelling at them. Yeah.
• 5:57
  And frankly, I think that's a win for everybody involved. Did it get done? Sure. I didn't fucking check. I'll probably find out in a few hours when I go to get a dish and there's no dishes, and that's on me. Yeah.
• 6:07
  But I was like I don't wanna do it. They don't wanna hear it. They can fucking do it. I'm gonna go sit outside with the dog and listen to the birds wake up. And I was very happy. Yes. So, sure.
• 6:16
  That's harm, harm reduction. The, yeah, [laughs] right, for everybody. I don't know.
• 6:20
  You know, one thing we're, we are trying to do is I've had these two, they're like starter music keyboards in my, in a cart from some, you know, music shop online, 'cause I'm trying to cut down on the Amazon, and because we're trying to do, if they show an interest in something that's not
• 6:35
  horrific, like apparently Bitlife is, and it keeps them in a world where like time is zero sum, keeps them from wanting to do offline stuff, we should support that as much as we can.
• 6:48
  So that's me trying to give up on yelling at them about being online and instead give other options. I was just curious- What about you?...
• 6:56
  'cause I was talking with a fri- well, I was just talking with a friend yesterday about their daughter has some high blood sugar thing. I don't know if she's pre-diabetes, but it doesn't matter.
• 7:06
  But my friend was saying that they were about to enroll their daughter in this camp that she wanted where you like basically make cakes and then eat them all, and like they're like, "We can't do that.
• 7:15
  We have to roll back and kinda start like rethinking our diet and cooking in a heart healthy manner."
• 7:19
  And I just took a step back and realized like how much shit my, I let my kids eat and like I kind of was just amazed about how I just made a decision not to let that bother me, I suppose.
• 7:29
  Is it something you actively gave up on or you never gave a shit about? Well, I mean, that can go a lot farther back.
• 7:34
  My mom was like a very traditional dinner on the table most nights of the week, a- and dinner had like a salad with a trad husband who was like, "Where's the protein?" You know, there's no meatless Monday.
• 7:44
  And Steve is actually like a really picky person.
• 7:47
  He's better than he used to be, but he's one of those, he's not as bad as his dad, but he is a very picky person, so that immediately kind of changed how I would have to cook as a family.
• 7:56
  Like conceivably I could cook whatever the fuck I wanted and he could eat whatever he wanted, but that's stupid.
• 8:01
  And the kids too are, too, I was gonna say to our credit, not to our credit, to our complete dumb luck to be clear, are not, they don't have allergies and they're not very picky. Like they will really try anything once.
• 8:12
  Christ. Like- That's amazing...
• 8:13
  but because of our schedule, because of sports, because of the way Steve doesn't prefer to eat, he thus doesn't cook a lot, like they just eat either so much going out, like hamburgers, you know, going to the gas station, we've talked about this, buying like a tiny baby bottle full of colored sugar and eating that and just- We have not talked about that.
• 8:32
  What the fuck did you just say? [laughs] I said it. That's all there is to say. What else do you need to know? There's no other details unfortunately. I wish there were.
• 8:42
  That's food, that's something that- That's the whole story? [laughs] Yeah. Oh my God. Okay. Well, I mean, that can't be that bad. I mean, what do we, remember Fun Dip? Remember fucking Fun Dip? Yeah.
• 8:50
  Paul had some last week. He got it at an arcade that we went to with some friends, and that's what I'm talking about, but I mean, I justify it by saying, again, they don't avoid anything and they do eat apples.
• 9:03
  [laughs] Or if I put out like peppers for them they do, so that's the deal I've made myself.
• 9:07
  I'm like if they do eat fresh fruits and vegetables, you know, and they will try things then like they can have all the garbage they want.
• 9:12
  But you know, a- and just from the not right now of it all, it's like we know about like microplastics, you know, we know about ultra-processed foods and whatnot, but I can't blaze this trail.
• 9:23
  It sounds like you really, uh, at least most of the time, which is fucking the best any of us can do, is like looking at it holistically.
• 9:29
  This is what drives me crazy about when people are like on like Monday CNN's like, "If you eat too many blueberries you're gonna fucking die."
• 9:35
  And on Tuesday they're like, "If you eat this many blueberries a day, like you'll live 10 extra years." You'll live forever.
• 9:40
  [laughs] It's like, yeah, but what if you fucking smoking and eating Big Macs the rest of the time but you're still eating six blueberries? We don't look at these things holistically, and the more that we can the better.
• 9:51
  It's just, you know, any public health person will basically tell you take any study and ask the real question which is like why is this the way it is, and it's because of socio- economics essentially like 1,000%.
• 10:04
  It's like someone's- Right... growing up in a house where somebody's smoking, doesn't matter what the fuck you eat, right? All these different things.
• 10:10
  But looking at it holistically goes a long way and it helps you give up on certain things, and again, like I've been bad about that. Now I try to draw a line. I bought 48 cookies from Publix, okay?
• 10:20
  And I know 'cause there were two packages that came 24 each. They ate them in 48 hours. I was like, "Motherfuckers, here's the deal.
• 10:28
  I will continue to buy cookies 'cause I'm not gonna try to demonize dessert 'cause you're pretty good eaters. You cannot eat 48 cookies in 48 hours. You were asleep for 16 of those." How big were the cookies though?
• 10:38
  I mean let's be, if we're talking like a- Some, no, not tiny. Okay. They were like soft. Not a thin mint thing? Okay. No, no. They're like s- soft- Mm-hmm... chocolate chip cookies, like standard cookie size.
• 10:47
  But I was like, "Much. It's too much." Well, maybe what sh- actually what you should do is buy more cookies and you know, like smoking, you know, like just buy cookies until they're sick of them. Right. Okay.
• 10:56
  You wanna eat that many? And then- Eat the whole package. [laughs] Let's watch your blood sugar go up and down. You know, that's, yeah, exactly. I mean that's, so that'll be their problem then. Will it though?
• 11:05
  For how many, until when is it still my problem?
• 11:08
  And this doesn't tie really into it completely, but m- maybe sort of is that I used to have an issue 'cause my parents were so healthy and wanted me so badly to eat healthy that I developed an eating disorder because it was like I did not have enough engagement with unhealthy food where it was very precious to me, you know?
• 11:24
  Uh-huh. And I would want like unhealthy... So part of me is so over, I just cannot, I just do not wanna police anyone's food. I just don't have it in me to do, repeat that history, you know?
• 11:35
  But, uh- I think Daniel would agree. I was and still remain in part a nightmare about that, but I'm desperately trying to get better about it every day. Yeah.
• 11:44
  We have a dad on our block who everyone kinda jokes about like on Halloween he'll be like, "You guys can have three pieces of candy," you know, and like, [laughs] goes away. I know that guy. But- It's fucking terrible.
• 11:56
  [laughs] Yeah. But, but anyway, despite all of my attempted to show it takes all kinds and, you know, whatever moderation in all kinds, I did get body shamed. I texted you yesterday. James was- Oh, yeah. Yeah.
• 12:09
  I was wearing my- This motherfucker Yeah. I'm not kidding. The workouts I do often involve a lot of walking, squat walking, like jump- Mm-hmm... squats, step ups- Mm-hmm... a lot of thigh kind of stuff.
• 12:21
  And, you know, in my life I've had various times where I've had to... I haven't had, but I lost a bunch of weight, and I've learned that, like, certain things don't come with weight loss, you know?
• 12:31
  And I have learned I'd rather just walk around with cellulite and not worry about it than fucking tear myself up about it. But, so James pointed out, he said, "Why are your legs so flabby?"
• 12:40
  yesterday, 'cause I was wearing my, like, workout shorts. Word for word? Yeah. Yeah, basically. And where did I start?
• 12:47
  I start, I think I started, like, at the cellular level literally, [laughs] where I was like, "This is my, how my cells come together. This is how my legs look-" I know... 'cause that's just the way they are.
• 12:56
  And then I got, like, mad, you know? I was like, "And by the way, my body is awesome, 'cause I gave birth two times-" Uh-huh...
• 13:02
  "and I walk around all the time," which is, none of that makes sense, and you don't have to have given birth to have an awesome body, obviously.
• 13:08
  And I texted a girlfriend of mine who has two boys, and she was like, "I think sometimes they just like to, like, be a dick, basically." And I was like- Yeah... "I agree," you know? Yeah, and I could tell...
• 13:15
  I was like, "What do you want me to say? You watch me literally strength train all the time," and I don't know.
• 13:21
  It, it was just kinda wild, but I was like, "I hope that you are married to a person with a lot of cellulite. You'll be like, 'I'm glad my mom [laughs] walked around in those exhausted short shorts.'"
• 13:29
  But here's the thing. This comes back to, we talked about that one time briefly. God, it might've been in, like, one of our, if not the first episode about, it is about whether it's
• 13:39
  the mom's job to train the dumb fuck boys to be a human and treat either their boyfriends or their girlfriends or whatever they have later to not say, "Why are your legs so flabby?" Like, baseline. Yeah.
• 13:52
  Is that your fucking job, or do you get to be mad in isolation? Yeah. Well, and part of me too is like, you should know actually about what cellulite is.
• 13:59
  There's a part of me that's like, sincerely, like, you should understand that's just, like, a thing that just happens to bodies. Like, literally- Yeah... like, that's just how bodies are made, you know?
• 14:06
  But I did kinda just troll him about it for the rest of the day. We played, like, in the backyard at the end of the day, which is, like, mother of the year, and James was like, you know, "It's fun," whatever.
• 14:16
  I was like, "I'm fun even despite my flabby legs," and so, so Yeah, I think once they get to a certain point you can really make them feel like shit, and it is one of my favorite things. I try to be strategic.
• 14:25
  Like for example, it's July 31st and I haven't gotten a Father's Day card yet from anyone, and every day I'm just poking the beast, every day.
• 14:38
  In fact, at one point, one of them actually said they were so tired of hearing from me about it, one of them said, "We got you a birthday card last year." I was like, "Okay." [laughs] That's hilarious. Okay.
• 14:48
  That's so awful. That's like saying, "I hugged you yesterday." Yeah, uh, uh-huh. So speaking of things you haven't given up on, tell me what is- Oh... what is Bitlife?
• 14:58
  Okay, so this is a game that's James is playing, and he and Paul often talk about these games that are some kind of simulator. I don't know if you've heard, if your kids play these.
• 15:06
  I don't even know what it'll be like- Girl, it's such a nerd. I played Flight Simulator. Is that what you're ta- I pa- played, like, Sim City... I think it is, like, a Sim, these different Sim things.
• 15:14
  So there's one where they're like, there's like a farm simulator. I don't know. It's just, like, background noise when they talk about this. And James, he, he did say, "I have a girlfriend" a couple weeks ago.
• 15:23
  He told me, and I was like, "What?" Yeah, I made that same face that you did. Excuse me? Yeah, and he said, "No, it's in this game." And I was like, "What are you doing in this game?" immediately. In the game in Canada?
• 15:32
  Uh-huh. And he's like, "Oh," like, "we just met each other."
• 15:36
  He seemed, like, irritated that I was even asking about it, and I asked a couple questions just to do some very light investigative work to make sure that there's no addresses being exchanged or, like, dirty talk, but I have to admit, I forgot about it.
• 15:50
  I forgot about this conversation until two nights ago when Steve told me that... For some reason, James takes, like, compulsively takes screenshots whenever he's playing something on the iPad.
• 16:00
  I don't know why he does that, and they all... You're nodding. Do your kids do this, or this, you've heard of this? It's eating up all of my storage, but continue. Yeah.
• 16:07
  He, so Steve's always mad about his storage or he can't find his pictures 'cause there's all these, like, clips from whatever, Retro Bowl. So Paul said, "You know, James is playing this game.
• 16:16
  Like, you should, like, check it out." And Steve looked at, the screen grabs said things like, "You and your girlfriend are going, are like, are..." What did they say? "You're pleasuring your girlfriend.
• 16:26
  What are her pleasure levels tonight?" What the fuck? And another one said, yeah, another one said, "You and your lady broke the bed last night. Congratulations." There were all of these thing... Yeah.
• 16:35
  And I looked up this thing, Bitlife. Literally the avatar is a sperm. If you Google it, it is a sperm. And I was like- It's a wrinkle. [laughs] I'm not kidding.
• 16:45
  And I was like, "People have to know, like, kids are playing this game," and that Google is this game for kids. It's a- And I think on its own site it says, "This game is not for kids." So there's no scandal.
• 16:54
  Like, the scandal is that we completely dropped the ball on whatever, like, our kid was playing. So first I told Paul, I was like, "Thank you for telling us. That was a good call.
• 17:03
  Like, you did the right thing, like, letting us know about that." And he's like, "Don't let him know that I told you." I was like, "Well, he leaves screenshots everywhere, and he told me." We got it.
• 17:10
  Like, so you're in the clear. And I told James, I was like, "You're not in trouble. Like, you, this is not your fault." But I was like, "This is not for you. You're not playing this game anymore."
• 17:19
  And he's like, "But it teach you, learn things." And I was like, "I don't care. It's not for kids." So when I first heard about this, I just felt horrible, like, just very sad and stupid, you know?
• 17:29
  And yeah, I don't know. I had to just keep moving on. What are you gonna do? I, uh, just yesterday I was like, "Steve, did you take that game off the device?" And he's like, "I haven't checked yet."
• 17:37
  So I was like, "Okay, great. We continue to kill it." Like, we're still obviously doing everything we can.
• 17:42
  But I was telling Steve, I was like, "The first time James pleasures a person, he'd be, like, wondering where the bar is, like, the status bar of pleasure levels." [laughs] Answer: it's never gonna be complete.
• 17:51
  [laughs] I know. So you're welcome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like the yelling, you know, the stream fan, the cam- the fan whatever at a- Uh-huh, uh-huh... you know.
• 17:58
  And the more you think about it, the further down it goes. It's gonna be great. Yeah. That's incredible. Wow, that's awesome.
• 18:04
  So Bitlife, don't be like me, but just keep an eye out for anyone listening that it's not for kids. But who knows? That's true. I don't know if they heard, he heard about it through Roblox or I have no idea.
• 18:14
  No idea where these things come from, and I don't wanna know. That's amazing. Before we go any farther, administratively we're gonna take an August break.
• 18:22
  You got all kinds of travel and fun stuff like that, and 1,000 other things, and also everybody needs a break. We're doing 1,000 things at work.
• 18:29
  I did think, and I haven't even brought this up to you, it might be fun to like ask people to send in stuff for like a back to school type Q&A we could answer. Questions, thoughts, rants. You know, a- anything you want.
• 18:42
  Yeah. Maybe some rants. I would love like some voicemail most from people about just like what their not right now is of back to school stuff. Mm-hmm.
• 18:49
  Like what they, whether school supplies or school calendar or- Yeah... you know, setting up meetings, things like that. Like- Literally anything. We'll take it and we'll parse through them.
• 18:58
  It feels like this is what we're made for.
• 19:00
  But otherwise, I wanted to talk, and you had a really great segue here that I wrote down, 'cause I would otherwise forget, about cooking for your husband, that you don't have to necessarily accommodate how picky he is, but you do.
• 19:13
  And you found this great evergreen Q&A question we got, and again, we usually put them in our members only feed, but it's more fun, I think, to share this one with everybody. And otherwise, please also pay us money.
• 19:26
  So here's the comment, and apologies to whoever wrote in. It w- I think it was a while ago. It was, "I'm loving the podcast.
• 19:32
  It's nice to listen to people who have kids that are same approximate ages as mine and are grappling with the same stuff.
• 19:37
  I'm interested in how you both balance spending time with your kids and spending time with your spouse." Of course, that could be your partner, whatever it is.
• 19:45
  They said, "I know this time where they wanna be with us is fleeting, but sometimes I just wanna have a dinner out with my husband. I find this also happens around bedtime.
• 19:54
  My daughter definitely wants to chat at bedtime, and then suddenly it's after 10:00 and I have to put myself to bed, and there goes our shared TV watching time.
• 20:02
  Is this just a season of life we're in, and can I spend time with him after the kids are in a more social phase? Would love your thoughts." And boy, do I feel this one. Let's dig into it.
• 20:13
  Your boys are going to sleepaway camp. How long are they going for? Have they ever both been away? Yeah. Do you have plans- They've both been away... individually and together? Did you
• 20:23
  figure out any best practices from last time that you're gonna apply this time? Hit me. No best practices. They will both be going.
• 20:30
  This will be both be the fir- the first time that they both have gone before, so we're not worrying about any first time stuff.
• 20:36
  Steve has some work thing coming down the pike on him, but he never knows quite when it will hit him, so we have one definite plan.
• 20:43
  My brother and his husband always give us gift cards to fancy Chicago restaurants that are great, but they're always far away, and so it's hard to just like wanna go out for dinner with a sitter- Mm-hmm...
• 20:53
  and just do that whole thing. So I think we'll go to this restaurant in the West Loop somewhere. And then I wanna go golfing with him during the day, because we never get...
• 21:02
  That's a very luxurious thing to do, and there'll be no kid pickup. But he's already inclined to wanna stick around for... He doesn't wanna promise anything because of work. So he can get very attached to doing his work.
• 21:13
  Half the time he has client work and he wants to get paid, but he also enjoys his work too. So we'll see. I'm hoping he'll carve out some time for us, but we'll see. Yeah, I don't know.
• 21:23
  I will admit that sometimes we are so bad about getting out together that once in a while when we actually do, I think we did for my birthday maybe, or Mother's Day. I think my birthday.
• 21:31
  It takes me a second to be like, "What the hell are we gonna talk about? This guy- Mm-hmm... for two hours, what are we gonna discuss?" And it like takes a second. Like I kind of have more- Totally...
• 21:41
  respect for the idea of transitions, like ever since I had kids, and I'm someone who needs them as well, and I need time to kind of transition from all the bullshit here in front of our house and being like, "Oh, we were people once before all this."
• 21:53
  Mm-hmm. And, you know, maybe we will be again someday. So I don't know, how are, how are you and Dana at setting aside cherished matrimonial time? Yeah.
• 22:01
  I mean, and I think we can come back to just also like both of our sort of day-to-day experiences. Getting away, we got this on our honeymoon.
• 22:11
  We got this advice from someone who'd been married for a long time, and they were like, "Make sure to make time for each other." And then we didn't go on a vacation just the two of us for 10 years. Mm-hmm.
• 22:21
  And you know, we had three kids in three years. But still, w- working hard, this and that. And I remember the first time,
• 22:27
  the first time I said to Dana, "Listen, I think we like need to get away, just the two of us, for- Mm-hmm... a substantial period of time, like more than 24 hours."
• 22:35
  And she said, and I quote, "Fuck you, get out of the room." [laughs] That's when I was like, "This is what I mean. I think we need to get away." Yeah. We eventually did, and it was amazing.
• 22:45
  And we were like, "Oh, okay, we need to do this more." But also we know it's gonna be hard, and we eventually wanna travel more with the kids.
• 22:52
  And then COVID happened and this and this, and we didn't do much related to all that. When they were younger, we used to be really good about date nights, and I think it's a few things.
• 23:03
  I would say out of the month, honestly, like three out of four Saturdays we would do a date night. I think it was a few things. We had our full-time nanny, Keisha, who's the greatest person alive.
• 23:13
  My mother-in-law was down the street. She couldn't like really, as much get the kids to bed, because it's a fucking lot, and she's a little older.
• 23:21
  But I think m- maybe the most important piece was that because they were all so close in age, and pre-COVID they were younger, they all went to bed at like 6:00, 6:30. Mm-hmm.
• 23:32
  So we could honestly get them most of the way to sleep and still bail for a reasonable dinner reservation. Yeah. So Grandma, like your job is to sit on the couch and Netflix. Like you don't actually have to do anything.
• 23:44
  Right. And that was really easy. And I wondered for a long time on this. I didn't realize that part for a long time. Now they're fucking up so late. I think there was a period where they were still a pain in the ass.
• 23:53
  Now I think it'd be easier. We could get back to it. Dana doesn't love staying out. And by the way, I'll eat dinner at 5:00. I don't give a shit. Yeah. I'll come home before the sun goes down.
• 24:03
  But I think it's flexing that muscle again, like finding time to do it. It's hard because you do wanna hang out with the kids.
• 24:08
  But we're like, "Yes, but one night a week at most, or at least, either way, whatever your resources are, like you gotta make a little time." And it's hard.
• 24:17
  We've talked about the daytime thing, like you said with the golfing. We're like, "Can we just go out to like breakfast? Is that crazy?"
• 24:24
  But I feel like the kids are more likely to be annoying then about wanting to see us. I don't know. It's a hard one. Now, the last year has been a little crazy because of all the Wicked stuff.
• 24:32
  We did, last spring we went away for a few days to Paris and London, which was extravagant for us, but nice and easy to get to from the East Coast.
• 24:42
  And then, you know, we did a little traveling for the Wicked stuff explicitly. It doesn't totally count, but it's been hard to find a window- Oh... to do anything more. But I think we're gonna try to grab a couple days.
• 24:53
  We like to go up to Charlottesville. It's two hours away. There's like a little place. Oh. We literally just do the crossword, sleep. She takes baths and I read a book about dragons. And they'll stay- Which is fine...
• 25:02
  with their grandmas? Sure. Yeah. Oh, okay. I don't care. Yeah.
• 25:05
  We'll try to ship them off or, you know, maybe Charlotte goes and stays with my brother and his girls or whatever, but you know, we try to set it up for success, especially if we're going away for a longer one, but even with the Wicked stuff coming up again, I don't know when we're gonna do that.
• 25:17
  Yeah. But I'd like to get back to it. It's just, it's hard. Yeah. It's hard. I mean, to the person who wrote in, I absolutely, we do not h- hang out after the kids go to bed. Like, not even really watch TV.
• 25:28
  Yeah, let's talk about the day-to-day stuff there. Yeah. So when do your kids go to bed? Oh, God, now it's even like more amorphous than it used to be.
• 25:35
  James is usually in bed around 9:00 when then Paul will be sort of awake, but u- usually kind of cl- like put away around, by 10:00. Well, I was gonna ask that. When are you done with them? That is the question.
• 25:46
  On like an average night where you don't have 40 activities and shit, which I know is the average night. Most of the time Steve has been doing James' bedtime lately, which I appreciate.
• 25:53
  So I'm usually done around 8:30 or 9:00. But Steve's not done. No, 'cause he does bedtime. He enjoys it more than I do, 'cause he's a better person than I am.
• 26:02
  And so yeah, and by the time he comes down I'm, like I just wanna be done talking to people. I wanna be... Yeah. I'm waving my hands in front of my face to indicate cone of silence. Like the veil has come down. Yeah.
• 26:13
  You know? And I don't wanna talk. I wanna start maybe going to bed as well.
• 26:17
  And again, he likes to go, he built an office over our garage, so that's where his office space, and he goes and he works on, he likes to practice like doing animation stuff, or he'll make work stuff, or he will like have a cigar and watch something on his laptop, you know, or read one of his old man nonfiction books.
• 26:33
  Right. And we both really like our downtime, you know?
• 26:36
  So I think one thing that does work for us actually is like a cheeky little lunch or breakfast if the kids are at school and we have a weird day off or there's some meeting. Mm-hmm.
• 26:44
  And I feel like that is more fun, you know, and more realistic of our energy levels, you know? Like again, his eating thing kind of puts restaurants as like a non-starter.
• 26:53
  Like it's not very exciting for him to go to fancy restaurants, so that's like not a thing that we do.
• 26:58
  And the traveling is we're at a weird age for it where like my parents are too old, Steve's parents are too connected to their cats to wanna travel to hang out with their grandkids.
• 27:07
  So I think one thing my parents did that I'm kind of shocked and impressed that they did was that a couple times they hired someone, like a teacher, a local teacher or a babysitter to stay with my brother and me, like kind of a rando, while they went on a trip.
• 27:21
  And I would feel too bad asking someone to do that, more than I would be worried about my kids. Mm-hmm. And so I don't see that happening.
• 27:27
  But, um- Do you think they just didn't give a shit about that person's feelings, or that rando's feelings, or- I think they paid them quite well. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. For that much annoying.
• 27:38
  Enough, enough to be like, "Whatever happens." Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 27:42
  So, and also that was like a work trip, so I think that probably helped that it was like, you know, semi-mandatory/paid for possibly, like that my dad had.
• 27:51
  Let's say Steve's downstairs at 8:30 when you did, and you both- Mm... you know, are like, "Okay, I need a minute to like detox," is there something you could find that could satisfy both of you?
• 28:00
  Is there something like he watches on his laptop that you guys could watch but doesn't require talking to people, you know? Like you're next to each other. We both like our space.
• 28:09
  Every now and then we'll watch like an episode of, uh, Poker Face. I almost called it Pokemon. Wow. Mm-hmm.
• 28:13
  Poker Face together, you know, and something he does that's very nice is he does a good foot rub, which I deserve. Yeah.
• 28:20
  And so every once in a while we'll hang out and do that, but I think that because usually at the end of that evening we've been spending so much time together as a group that we just crave- Mm...
• 28:28
  our quiet time and sort of space.
• 28:30
  So I did go with him, every once in a while he'll go have a drink at like a daytime, like a happy hour kind of drink at one of the local breweries, and every blue moon I'll go and join him.
• 28:41
  I just don't, like not to be whatever, I don't wanna hang out in bars like the way I used to.
• 28:47
  Call me crazy, but they're like not quite as fun if you don't drink alcohol, and I don't mind like once in a while, but not all the time.
• 28:53
  So a couple weeks ago he went down, I was just like in a funny mood, so I went down and joined him at the local bar.
• 28:59
  We both had our drinks and were kind of talking about these little kids running around, and he was so excited that I had j- joined, like that I almost was like, "Okay. All right. Fine. Like enough. All right. I noticed."
• 29:09
  I know. "I get it." Did you have a good time? Sure. You know, he kept talking to me and touching me, but I mean, otherwise it was nice. [laughs] That's exactly how Dana feels. She's like, "I mean, it's fine.
• 29:18
  I wish he would sit farther away, but you know, other than that, sure. Whatever. Whatever." Yeah.
• 29:23
  It's funny 'cause like whatever line of communication I'm in, I should be in that should be making me feel like bad about like how much dating time we aren't, like I don't feel very bad about it right now, I guess.
• 29:34
  If you spend enough time around people whose spouses are awful, like you, you're like, you know what? Wanting to be around you sometimes is fine, and it's not a sin to not wanna be around you constantly. Sure.
• 29:48
  And by the way, if that's a mutual understanding, I'm not gonna say everybody wins, but everybody survives, you know? Yeah. And it's hard to get to that point.
• 29:56
  It's hard for even one person to have that self-awareness, much less like the understanding or not take it and be gnarly about it, or when that just comes up, 'cause it not...
• 30:03
  You know, Dana and I, so day to day, like again, our kids are up later and activities and then all this shit, but I try to be the closer when I can. But they'll often understandably ask for her.
• 30:15
  They're like, "This has been great. When is mom coming in?" [laughs] And I'll either, a lot of times will say, "She already fucking came in. They're, we're not doing this twice. We have to go to bed too."
• 30:25
  Or I'll be like, "I don't know. She's in the bath." Like, "Best wishes." I don't know.
• 30:29
  And, or the third one is she'll go in and she'll get into bed, and then all bets are off because she's sleeping there until God knows when, and then somebody else is mad 'cause there are three of them, that she didn't come in there.
• 30:40
  It's a whole fucking thing. Meanwhile, I'm like, I'm just waiting to watch All Creatures Great and Small. Like, I get them through teeth brushing and all the bullshit. Mm-hmm. You know, that is a lot of our...
• 30:49
  It's Top Chef, it's All Creatures, it's Great British Baking Show. Very rarely are we allowed to watch my things, which is something I,
• 30:59
  speaking of giving up on, gave up so long ago, and it's fine because those other things are like Prozac for me. What are your things? Oh, it's spaceships blowing up and shit like that, you know? Okay. Yeah.
• 31:09
  She's like, "I don't need it. I don't need it." Yeah. Right. She's like, "Can appreciate it from afar, but not at the end of the night." Yeah. Like, "No, thanks." Oh.
• 31:14
  Right now, my favorite thing, and Steve is welcome to sit on the couch with me while I do this, but, like, doing a crossword puzzle in front of a baseball game, it's just, like, the perfect amount of like- Yeah, if I have work shit to do, baseball is my white noise.
• 31:25
  Mm-hmm. I went from being, you know, diehard fans to just I'm a diehard fan of the sport, and it just brings me peace, and I can do anything in the background. She's like, "I need to be
• 31:35
  engaged with something the entire-" Yeah. 'Cause her brain never stops. So I get that, so we'll do that, but we don't do much. We'll look up and be like, "Oh, 9:15. This is terrible." Mm-hmm.
• 31:43
  Sometime later we'll do a thing of, "We'll watch the first few minutes of the next episode. Let's see what happens." So we watch a whole thing. Mm. And the next day we feel like shit. But we do try to find the time.
• 31:53
  So much these days, at least, with her work and the three kids at the age they are, and my shit can very much feel like ships passing in the night, which I think is
• 32:05
  f- is fine and expected, you know, some of the time, once in a while, this and that. But we definitely do try to, like, find moments of each other. I try to find them more.
• 32:15
  I think she, for a variety of reasons, you know, would always, but most of the time opt for a bath and her iPad. We women, espe- at this age, we need to be... You need to respect our...
• 32:27
  Sometimes we need to, like, tor- tortoise shell, you know, and just- Oh, yeah. What would, what do you call? Lost at Sea. Take to the waters. Sometimes we need to not be touched. My God.
• 32:35
  There was one time where Steve really wanted to go in for a long hug.
• 32:38
  I love him, but I was having this weird cellular reaction where I was like, "I really wa-" I, I didn't say it 'cause it was so mean, but I really wanted to be like, "D- I really don't wanna be touched right now."
• 32:45
  It was a really strange, visceral reaction. Oh, that's adorable you don't say it. Dana will just be like- [laughs] She'll say things like, "It makes my skin crawl." I'm like, "Okay, cool."
• 32:53
  Um, she's like, "No, I don't mean it like that, but I do." Oh, I had to tell Steve to stop touching me. He used to touch me while I was cooking, and I finally had to be like, "I'm working. I'm...
• 33:02
  How would you like it if I came up to you while you were, you know, editing something and I started touching your..." And he's like, "I would like it." To be clear, would love that. Love that. He would love it, yeah.
• 33:09
  Would love that. And I was like, I finally was like, "Don't touch me while I have a knife in my hand." And I was just being serious. Or when I don't have a knife in my hand. Or just not at all. Yeah.
• 33:18
  Yeah, so I definitely look for more. I mean, then again, you know, we've been together is it 15 years now, something like that. It has been a hell of a 15 years on a lot of fronts.
• 33:26
  But you know, again, we're trying to both have the self-awareness, what we need and what we don't, and the expectations, and it gets fucked up.
• 33:33
  But there's def- you know, there's times where I'll sit at, like sh- I, I like to run her bath for her. It makes me feel like I'm contributing.
• 33:39
  And then I usually disappear, and the, the dog comes in and I'm made to leave. Sometimes I'll sit there and chat, and I can tell at a point she's like, "It would be great if you left." When her answers get shorter.
• 33:49
  Yeah, yeah. When she goes, whatever the text equivalent of "Ha ha" is. [laughs] But I wanna go back to what this feedback said so specifically- Oh... because this is, you know, typical me, my shoulding.
• 34:00
  As my therapist said, "Shoulding all over myself." This person said, "I find this happens around bedtime. My daughter definitely wants to chat at bedtime, and then it's late."
• 34:07
  But she says that, you know, time with them is fleeting. But also, like, time with your spouse is, can be fleeting or, or whatever it is, and I wrestle with it all the time. And it's not easy.
• 34:18
  Like, you look up and I don't know.
• 34:19
  I don't know about your kids now, but Oliver's like, "Eh, good night," or goes upstairs, or doesn't go upstairs until someone tells him, and then he's like, "Taking a shower, go away," in no words or less.
• 34:29
  But I'm like, "He doesn't necessarily want me to put him to bed anymore, so I'll just go down and deal with that, then watching spaceships blow up." I'm like, "Did I miss that? I can't get it back," this and that.
• 34:38
  So I get it. I wrestle with it, but I do find, at least for us, it's, it is healthy to try to, not block out, 'cause we can't block out anything these days.
• 34:47
  Find those moments, even if it's 20 minutes of Arrested Development on the couch- Yeah... is something. Sometimes, like, we'll go for, he'll just, we'll walk the dog together. It's not very- Great...
• 34:56
  you know, nothing's happening. It's something, but it counts. But yeah. And actually for us, that was a big milestone in terms of leaving the kids home alone.
• 35:02
  We started doing that during COVID, which sounds so s- like, silly now, but there has to be a first time for everything like that, and that, I remember that was, like, a big deal that we're like, "We're walking the dog.
• 35:10
  We'll be back in 10 minutes. Good luck." You know? But yeah. I- counts, and again, you gotta find those things. If it works, great. Yeah.
• 35:18
  Well, you know, I think there's so much pressure, first of all, for all parents to, like, have this mysterious well of energy at bedtime after you've done everything to, like, now be nice to everyone at bedtime.
• 35:30
  And I think it is very impossible to, like, maintain your relationship in addition to maintaining everything else. But on the other hand, like, I think you forget, we all forget, like, how...
• 35:40
  I kind of always joke, I'm like, "It's unfair that you have to live with the person that you, like, made kids with and also have a relationship with them." That's three relationships in one. Like, roommate- Mm-hmm...
• 35:50
  you know, partner, and co-parent, and two of those, at least two of those are very disgusting. You know, so I don't think you'll ever get back to, like, before kids, you know?
• 35:59
  But, like, Steve and I, we sometimes we joke, we're like, "The kids don't wanna appreciate this," but I'm like, between the two of us, we've kind of done some cool stuff and are sort of cool people, and maybe- Sure...
• 36:07
  someday the boys will appreciate it. But more importantly, like, we should remember that.
• 36:11
  Like, we're, when we're not just, like, sending each other, like, monosyllabic text messages about meds being ready and who's doing pickup and, you know, are you adding anything to the shopping list, you know?
• 36:21
  But yeah, I think getting rid of the ideas of, like, when it's supposed to happen or what it's supposed to look like c- then you can find that that time is, you know, you can sneak it in other places the way, you know, Jessica Seinfeld would sneak in vegetables in so many treats.
• 36:33
  And I also think it's, I can't remember who- Who wrote the book? I don't have it here.
• 36:37
  It's a book about just, like, finding more joy, and it's dumb, but it's like the more you look for it, the more you're gonna find it, the more you'll have it and appreciate it.
• 36:44
  And it's like if you guys, whatever your situation is, happen upon something that, like, brings you the briefest glimpse of laughing together or whatever it is, whether it requires brain power, or it's sexy, or it's not, or there's any conversation or none, and it worked, like,
• 37:01
  m- there's some danger in trying to recreate it. But on the other hand, try to recreate it, even if it's, like, a super low bar, you know? It could, like today, it could be breakfast or coffee or
• 37:10
  taking the dogs for a fucking walk, if that works. Right? 'Cause everything is a lot, but everything- Mm-hmm... is a lot, and, you know, we are collectively, because of
• 37:21
  everything that's going on, and then, and the news, and kids, and all that stuff, and screens, like, o- our relationships in general are not what they could or probably need to be.
• 37:35
  Whether it's with romantic partners, or used to be romantic partners, or co-parents, or w- whatever it is, friendships. Like,
• 37:42
  I do think this is arguably the most important time, not to necessarily prioritize it above everything else, but to...
• 37:50
  If we're gonna go through hard things, much less find our way out of them and try to build something better, it's helpful to have healthy, if not rock solid, relationships of any kind. Again, friends, you know. Mm.
• 38:04
  Stuff like that, and a co-parent, 'cause it's fucking hard. You can pass on this question if it's too personal, but have you guys ever gotten professional advice on being a couple? No, we haven't.
• 38:15
  I feel like we have enough therapists in our family, and we've each done enough of that our- ourselves. No, we haven't. I'm of the mind that, and I've had four different therapists in the past 20 years.
• 38:29
  I didn't try it before that. And not the most recent one, but the one before that, I had to leave 'cause California couldn't work remotely in Virginia 'cause of the laws. That guy was great.
• 38:37
  If talk therapy works for you, much less you and your spouse, or you and your family, or your kid or whatever, great. And if you find the right person, awesome. Whatever your version of it is.
• 38:47
  Some people just want someone who's gonna listen and let you and your spouse or co-parent or whatever get your shit out. Some people want some feedback. Some people want, like, constructive advice. "Tell me what to do."
• 38:58
  And I've had all versions of that. I find it very valuable with the right person. I also do find, however, sometimes, and again, m- seeing it as a larger journey,
• 39:07
  I will get done with a session and feel like I have nothing left to offer the world today because I got our shit out. Mm-hmm. And that's part of it. Mm.
• 39:14
  It's probably better than bottling it up, but it definitely, like, it can affect me in a negative way beyond the session. I can't just go back [laughs] to writing about climate change. You can only have so much fun.
• 39:27
  Yeah, but burying things is not great. I think part of the reason we haven't, and not to say we wouldn't have benefited from it or we won't in the future, we get a lot of... W- we don't bury much between the two of us.
• 39:39
  Mm-hmm. Like, we get shit out, which can be abrasive- Wow... in the moment, but then we at least start to get past it, versus shoving it down. This is not the best. Oh. You know what I mean?
• 39:48
  And again, not to say there hasn't been... B- and n- not that we haven't done research or talked to individual people about it, but yeah, not yet, I guess is the version- Mm... I would say. Mm. What about you guys?
• 39:57
  That's a good answer. No, not yet.
• 40:00
  There was a time, maybe during COVID, I don't remember, where I was kinda serious about wanting to, and I think I learned something interesting that I think a lot of men hear interest in a marriage counselor as being a red, a huge red flag for divorce.
• 40:14
  That's like the- Mm-hmm. Sure... you know, exit ramp for divorce, and I don't think women see it like that.
• 40:19
  If I recall correctly, I ended up with Steve seeing his own therapist, which was, like, fine, probably even better, honestly. So no, have not been there, but like I said, not, just not yet. It's interesting, that point.
• 40:30
  Yeah, not yet. I'm open to- No... wh- fucking whatever helps. It's like when I see some of these, you know, there's, like, a 38-year-old soccer play- player playing for Liverpool, and they're like, "He is 1,000.
• 40:38
  Look at him go." I'm like, "I'll take whatever he's taken." [laughs] I don't care. So it, you made a point there where you're like, he saw his own person, which might have even been better.
• 40:47
  I think for both of us, most of our issues have been either just expectations about rearing children and what marriage is and responsibilities and work and stuff, but most of that is, most of it is each of our own shit.
• 40:59
  Mm-hmm. So having our own, like, working out our own shit, and then bringing a more constructive, open, compromising version has been helpful. For sure. And we also just fucking change over time. I mean, Dana was...
• 41:13
  You know, when I got out to LA, she'd already been there for 15 years. She had whole relationships and life. It's, you know, I always tell people, it's like Washington, DC, or, like, a big naval base.
• 41:24
  Like, your work is your life and your life is your work, and they're the same relationships. It's unavoidable. Mm.
• 41:28
  And so the big social things we go to are always with people she's working with at the moment, or people she had worked with or might work with again in the future, or it's a work party.
• 41:35
  Where I was, like, full introvert at that point. I was like, "I don't wanna fucking, I don't wanna talk to anybody. I don't wanna make new friends. I don't wanna do any of this." Mm-hmm.
• 41:41
  "I'm good with the people I've got." That was definitely an issue between us for a long time, and so we would do less social shit, you know? Mm. We did more date nights and hanging out together once we had kids.
• 41:52
  But also just once we got more tired, I think. We're [laughs] like, she caught up to me, bas- [laughs] She's six years older than I am, and she's always like, "Oh, you're catching up to me."
• 42:00
  I'm like, "That's not quite how it works." But I think energy-wise, like, she's caught up to me, which is, look, I, it's fun to once in a while have the big life and do things.
• 42:07
  But other times I'm like, "Can we just have a quiet moment?" Everything else is loud. Right. Steve used to be a lot more introverted and shy and, and it...
• 42:16
  I responded the way a healthy extrovert is, w- was, like, with anger and not understanding. Yeah. We would have these fights all the time, man, about it. She was like, "You fucking hate it here." I'm like...
• 42:25
  [laughs] But I think being a dad actually was, like, great for him, 'cause, like, you are all sort of set at the same bar of you've all been disrespected. You know, you've all been through it. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah.
• 42:35
  You all need to find your own-... path.
• 42:37
  I think being a dad like liberated him in a lot of ways, like socially, like in terms of, you know, and again, being like embracing all the uncool things that you wanna do, you know, like reading with a cigar in your garage, you know?
• 42:50
  And, you know, I haven't met Steve, but it, you know, sounds like he's a good dad, but you've put in your time for the day. [laughs] You know, from your job and your kids and all that. You're like- Yeah...
• 42:58
  I'm gonna do my cigar. And that's why when I'm like, "Listen, I need to blow, watch spaceships blow up," and she's like, "The same ones you've watched 20 times?" I'm like, "Yeah, absolutely." She's like, "That's fine."
• 43:07
  Yeah. But like Steve and I work in the same building, or not the same building, the same property, so we also just see each other a lot all day long. Okay. So that's something we couldn't do very well in.
• 43:15
  We actually did pretty well during COVID, but n- that, yeah, we need some space. It's interesting and, you know, but you do have that note in here where you're like the age where people are starting to divorce. Mm.
• 43:26
  Have you had any friends where you're like, "Well, I've seen this coming for a long time," or any surprises or et cetera, et cetera?
• 43:33
  I just had a little bit more like experience lately where I've spoken with someone and I'm like, "How are you?" And they're like, "I'm getting divorced."
• 43:39
  And then you have to figure out like what to say in response because the, the... you might be saying like, "Good," or- Yeah, finally... "I'm really s-," yeah, or, "I'm really sorry."
• 43:47
  And most of the time people are like, "It's pretty good. Like it's, I'm sad."
• 43:51
  You know, there was one woman, I don't know her that well, but her husband traveled all the time for work, and turned out he was cheating on her like really bad.
• 43:58
  Had like a work girlfriend and then, you know, all that stuff. But at the same time you're like this tracks, none of this is, you know, surprising to me.
• 44:05
  But yeah, it's interesting to encounter that and I have a friend who's very scared of divorce. I think she's fascinated by it and scared of it, so she's always thinking about the other side of it.
• 44:15
  And I don't know, I've heard about some like really intelligent, not intelligent, emotionally intelligent divorces, you know, where people like share the same home and communicate really well and things go okay.
• 44:23
  And then I've heard of like absolute nightmares, like where a man is selling the house that his ex-wife and children are currently living in just 'cause, you know, and that kind of thing.
• 44:33
  So if you're at the stage of life where you're like the divorce is whatever, you know, it's just like I hope you're not getting fucked royally. I hope this is not- Yeah... you know- Right...
• 44:42
  it's not, I hope you're safe, that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. It's wild. I don't have too many friends that have gone through it yet.
• 44:49
  I definitely have friends or, or folks that, you know, I haven't d- done a good job keeping up with that have. I have, you know, probably some friends from...
• 44:57
  Yeah, if the kids run around, I could see that happening to them for sure. They're just like- Well...
• 45:02
  they've each found the things that keep them busy, and it's fine and that's all they've got the energy for is fine, but it could be a lot worse type of thing. I see that, for sure. Yeah. It's interesting.
• 45:12
  It definitely can reframe things for you. It, we try to, when we think about that stuff, like out loud remind ourselves and each other that we're pretty lucky, that it's hard.
• 45:22
  But again, I think it's almost like how your ambition in general goes down, I guess. You're just like w- w- for what? Like why would I- Yeah...
• 45:30
  w- when would I have time to do anything that would f- like what are you- I know.
• 45:34
  That's when I think about that, I'm like, I'm glad I don't hate Steve enough to like have to go get divorced because that would just be like a lot of time and effort that- Oh my God, the paperwork.
• 45:43
  Like the whole thing is, fuck that. Yeah, take your baths, enjoy it, you know? Yeah. No, it's, it is wild though. But you know, you have another note here about date nights when one of you drinks and the other doesn't.
• 45:52
  I think that's also- Well... not necessarily divorce, but
• 45:56
  part of counseling and just America, where e- everything we love is funded by, you know, the NFL and the Defense Department is like alcohol's so prevalent, and it is such a, it is the grease for our social network.
• 46:11
  Of which like- Mm... I am thankful for some like important moments in my life, like alcohol, maybe actually able to talk to someone.
• 46:20
  But it's probably also done some really shitty things and I'm aware of, you know, it just sucks and it can make people fight and/or be tired or make really terrible decisions, whether around driving or family or whatever it might be.
• 46:35
  And I know for me at least, you know, now trying to, I haven't had a drink in four years, something like that, and I'm like, I know I feel better, and I'm- Mm... sure there's three fights I've avoided because- Mm-hmm...
• 46:48
  I just don't. Like I j- I gave up, you know? It's like, why? Doesn't make anything better- Yeah... for us at least.
• 46:53
  Steve did say that, he did articulate a couple, like maybe a year or so ago, and I, I asked him, it wasn't, he didn't volunteer this, like I, so he's not a bad guy for saying this, but I said like, "How do you feel about, is it weird that I don't drink anymore?
• 47:05
  Do you miss me drinking with you?" And he said, "I do kind of miss my drinking buddy." And you know, uh, and part of that I think is like relating to pre-kids, like back in the day when we had times- Mm-hmm...
• 47:15
  go get day drunk and then watch movies the rest of the day or whatever, but I don't mind.
• 47:20
  Again, I don't mind going to a bar sometimes or having a non-alcoholic drink, but there are just certain like hangout, like fuck around scenarios where if you're not drinking it doesn't feel the same.
• 47:29
  Like he wants to go- Sure... like sitting in the backyard, you know? Like I'm just more, much more cognizant of like the bugs, you know, and I wanna go inside than, you know. Mm-hmm.
• 47:37
  Or a dinner, you know, one more cocktail or just hanging out at the bar, and I do kind of miss drinking with your spouse and like having a laugh, you know? But at the same time- Sure...
• 47:46
  I would be remiss in remembering the fights, the w- like the wine anger in particular, you know? Mm-hmm. And the depression. So I've said this before. In that case, I chose myself over the relationship.
• 47:57
  Not like it came down to it, it wasn't a choice, but I kind of was like, yeah, I guess our relationship is like a little bit less,
• 48:03
  you know, buddy since I stopped drinking, but I don't, I'm not gonna figure out how to drink moderately just so we can hang out, you know, at the bar. Like- Yeah.
• 48:11
  I mean, we both definitely, coming back to date nights, like there was definitely a period where we both
• 48:16
  really, and I would pick the restaurants in LA or wherever based on not only was the food really good and was it open at 5:00, but did they make great cocktails? We were never big- Oh... like beer people.
• 48:27
  Wine puts us both to sleep. It was definitely like cocktails, and were they really good? Oh. And we both really looked forward to that and, and I think that's probably part of it too. Neither of us drink.
• 48:37
  And now of course, you know, there's been a period and there's, they'll make cocktails without the alcohol part or whatever it is, but you don't look forward to them in the same way 'cause it's not just- No...
• 48:45
  what is the old school quote? Like when it hits your lips. It's just like the sweet relief it can provide for a little bit, but then of course- Yeah... you know.
• 48:52
  I would be- we yelled at each other- 20% of the time on the drive home because of fucking nothing. [laughs] You know? Yeah. Besides, we were just exhausted.
• 49:00
  I think that drinking post-kids was especially, like together we're like cl- clink. It's our t- we're logging off together. We are agreeing now- Yeah... that is the time to w- whatever it is, you know?
• 49:11
  And so that little symbol, that little symbolic, you know, like together, you know. Yeah, that's not a present thing, but again, you know, you choose your choice.
• 49:21
  I would rather be married to the me that doesn't wake up at 4:00 in the morning screaming at myself, you know, or getting- Oh, yeah... really mad at the kids for whatever, you know. But yeah, those were good days.
• 49:30
  I remember we had a trip between kids where we went to Anguilla and we were like drinking rum punch in the ocean. You know, just all this. I totally get it. No, I totally get it. I know. It was hard.
• 49:40
  I mean, we did all the versions then, man, where you're just like, "We're going out sweating and it's gonna go off and it's gonna be great." Yeah. And then you're just suffering in bed and- Yeah, or we'll wake up,
• 49:47
  we'll wake up late and we'll order in lunch. This was pre-kids. Oh, yeah. And we're like, yeah, maybe have sex during the day, you know, and then like go out for dinner, whatever. Oh, I mean, the world's your oyster.
• 49:56
  [laughs] I think though that we have enough distance from that by choice and by circumstances now that I really do and I, you know, we're just getting old, where I look back and I'm like, "That was like an actual different life.
• 50:09
  That was a different person. We were in a different relationship, different circumstances, like different city and time." I'm like, "We're good." And now we're the same way. I've all these...
• 50:19
  I'm the second of 32 cousins, and I love most of them very dearly. [laughs] And there's this swath in the middle now, mostly young women, who are all getting married.
• 50:29
  And, and we go to the weddings when they're close and there's not six roommates and stuff like that.
• 50:34
  And it's great 'cause we'll go, we'll both really enjoy it, see some folks, and then we're both really good about, "And now let's get the fuck out of here" when no one- Oh, yeah...
• 50:40
  where before she's like, "Well, I'm having a great time." And I'm like, "Well, that's great for you, but I'm having a terrible time." And then we just fight. And we're like, no.
• 50:46
  Again, it's a version of the giving up, I guess. We're quiet. But- Yeah... I don't know. Expectations. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah, that's another thing. Stephen and I used to camp together. Used to camp.
• 50:56
  I think we went twice before we had kids, but that's another thing where I'm like, well, if I'm not drinking, like I don't wanna be sitting out, like especially while the kids are up.
• 51:03
  We're all gonna be up at the same time. You do that and I'll stay home and watch the dog, but that's fine. Mm-hmm. It's okay.
• 51:08
  So anyway, like w- so to sum up for the person who wrote in, I think it's normal to not hang out [laughs] with your spouse at night after you've had kids or to even want to.
• 51:17
  And I think the idea of a formal date, uh, doesn't need to happen, you know, with going to the downtown restaurant with a reservation and the sitter and all that kind of stuff.
• 51:25
  But it is good to like, I think, flex the muscle of getting back sometimes into the character of the person that you maybe were before you had kids. Yeah, well that was the thing.
• 51:33
  Dana used to disappear for an hour and like actually get dressed up and she's, "Because I wanna not feel like a fucking mom of three five-year-olds for a minute," you know? Mm-hmm. And I'm like, "Totally get that.
• 51:42
  That's part of it," for where I, you know, I'd roll out in whatever I have. I was s- s- such a monster. But I don't know.
• 51:48
  I, I think like anything, especially with parenting and relationships and everything, you know, again, reading over this and everything we talked about, it's like it doesn't need to be black or white.
• 51:56
  You can either be- No... if your kids are the age where they got activities at night, whatever, you can just, you know, I would instinctively and probably poorly say something like, "Listen kids."
• 52:07
  I'd look at the calendar that might be similar week to week and I'd say, "Monday nights you're putting yourselves to bed. Mom and I are hanging out. That's the fucking deal." Mm-hmm.
• 52:15
  Try to set expectations a little bit because there's also nights where you're like, of course, intellectually and with love in my heart, I would love to talk to my kids right now, but also like I'm this close to throwing them out the window.
• 52:27
  And so it's better for everybody if I just go smoke some pot with mom downstairs, you know? Yeah. So- Yeah... I, I don't know, but try to set up some hope for it, but it's not easy.
• 52:37
  One, one thing that I recommend, and we haven't done this in a while, but when y- we did it, we always felt like a genius. Early dinner reservation with a sitter.
• 52:43
  [laughs] And then get home right after the sitter puts the kids to bed. Not too soon because you wanna have a shitty- Oh, sit in the driveway... a shitty dinner. Right.
• 52:50
  But if you get home at 8:30 or 9:00, then you still have time to go to bed early basically and watch- 100%...
• 52:55
  your village-ual five-hour documentary in bed if you need to or whatever it is that you're, that you need, you know, for your early bedtime- Um... mental health.
• 53:03
  It does, I will say though, time flies by, relationships fly by, kids fly by. You look up, they're older and like maybe you'll have a time and the kids have more of a social life.
• 53:11
  Again, like, not to be a downer, but in a realist way, there's a lot of hard things now. We all go through hard things now, like w- you and I text all the time about parenting our parents and all that stuff.
• 53:20
  It helps where you can as much as you can control to feed not just your partner relationship, but any other ones simply
• 53:31
  if anything, to have a baseline of scaffolding for when things are difficult, not just in, "I'm supposed to, we're supposed to have sex twice a week." It's like fucking good luck. Mm. You know? But I do think
• 53:43
  that helps and in person helps or whatever version. I have a dear friend and we only, he's the only person I text on WhatsApp. Two guys I text on WhatsApp.
• 53:53
  One's in London, one's in Australia, exclusively during the second half of Liverpool soccer games. I'm like- Mm-hmm... "Great," 'cause none of us are gonna do the, when else are we gonna coordinate our times?
• 54:02
  Not that's like your relationship, but like you can find things and it helps. I find that helps. I think we could use more of that, more camaraderie these days, but it's hard. It's fucking hard. Yeah. So.
• 54:15
  No, I think the best solution is to make sure that you spend time with friends and go out and see other people sometimes so that you can bring home some good gossip to your spouse, 'cause that is like the one new thing- Something else to talk about.
• 54:25
  Yeah... being married is- You should talk to other people... is chit talk. Yeah, exactly, like making fun of...
• 54:30
  If, especially if one of you can do an impression of like your kid, like your kids to each other, that is, you know, prime. If you can clown your kids together, that's like the ultimate needs of a relationship. Yeah.
• 54:41
  I can't remember who the actor was. Maybe Damon Wayans Jr. I don't know. Mm-hmm. He gave this interview and he was like, "What do you and your wife like to do?" He's like, "Oh, we get in bed and just..."
• 54:49
  tear our children to pieces and laugh our asses off. And you're like, "That's great. That's super healthy." [laughs] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You're not doing it to them.
• 54:56
  You're laughing, like it's a shared joke that everybody gets. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Fuck them kids. Fuck them kids. That's, that's it. [laughs] That's it. Yeah. So yeah.
• 55:05
  Here, we'll do a yes right now after this, but otherwise- Okay... yeah, we're gonna take a lot August off here. We'll... Send us anything related to back to school. Don't give a fuck.
• 55:13
  Is it your first year without a back to school? Great. Are you a grandparent who's like, "Good luck"?
• 55:17
  Are you a teacher, you know, who doesn't make enough and is like, "God, fuck them kids," and you haven't even met them yet? Don't care.
• 55:23
  Let us know and we'll share them and respond to them and whatever else, 'cause good Lord, it's a lot already, you know? Mm. It's crazy. Anything else on that front at all, Claire? No.
• 55:33
  Like I said, I'm gonna report back and see how this goes. I'm trying out a, a service that matches you, like a calendar keeper, like it is a virtual assistant, and I'm curious to see if that will make my- Ooh...
• 55:42
  change my life. Yeah, so we'll see what happens- That's exciting... with this. Yeah.
• 55:46
  I thought it would be great if I could just have a person, some angel I could send every single email that involves scheduling to, and have this person make sense of it, but we'll see what comes of it.
• 55:56
  My kid's swim coach, who I swam for, and half the reason we moved here is so that they could learn from this person, couldn't send course emails. You're like- Oh...
• 56:05
  "What are the logistics behind what's happening here in this, like, Microsoft Word document where nothing's formatted right? Are the warmups today- Yeah... or tomorrow?" Yeah.
• 56:12
  We had one team was on TeamSnap for James' baseball team. The other team is run by Northwestern students. Oh. So they're running Google Forms. Half of these. Hold on.
• 56:22
  ParentVUE, GameChanger, Canvas, Securely, MeetMobile, Swimtopia, two different swim meet ones. Our school system now has their own app. It's terrible. Oh. Hold on. Parent... What the fuck is this one?
• 56:34
  It's just called Parent... Oh, GoGuardian, whatever that is. A rainout line for baseball, and I know I deleted some other ones. And you're like- Oh, no... every team uses a different one. TeamSnap, TeamSideline. Mm-hmm.
• 56:44
  Those are some that we have. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. Jesus Christ.
• 56:47
  And so, and there's a shared calendar for school, there's a shared calendar for football, and then Paul has confirmation, so he has to go to church every single day. Not day. It'll feel like every single day.
• 56:58
  Like, every week till this gets done, so yeah. I just want some angel to make it all happen for me, and I'll just show up.
• 57:04
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• 57:22
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• 57:27
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• 57:34
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• 57:42
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• 57:53
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