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The Superman Wars From Fan And Historian William Bernhardt · Arroe Collins Like It's Live

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  Speaker 1: Have you checked it out yet? Arrow dot net A
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  Speaker 1: R R E. Twenty different podcasts for you to check
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  Speaker 1: out every single day. Yeah, it is the power of choice.
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  Speaker 1: One of those shows includes that voice. I've spent over
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  Speaker 1: Oe dot net. Enjoy your exploration, man, I am so
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  Speaker 1: fired up to share conversation with you because, oh my god,
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  Speaker 1: the circles that will create this coming summer when it
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  Speaker 1: comes to Superman and all those stories. How did you
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  Speaker 1: even get into this knowing there are so many Superman
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  Speaker 1: fans out there?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it was the story I was interested in
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  Speaker 2: because of the creator's rights issue. You know, this story
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  Speaker 2: starts in the nineteen thirties, but the problem is still
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  Speaker 2: with us today. It may be even worse now with
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  Speaker 2: the intranet and you know people posting original content online
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  Speaker 2: that soon gets ripped off or studied by AI.
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  Speaker 3: So anyway, it's a timely issue.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I've always wondered that all the way back into
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  Speaker 1: my childhood, because every time I turned around as a kid,
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  Speaker 1: there were like all these different Star Wars stories, and
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  Speaker 1: I kept going, how is this possible? I thought there
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  Speaker 1: was only one writer. Yet when I walk into a
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  Speaker 1: woolworths Man, I mean, there's like twenty different Star Wars books.
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  Speaker 1: So you're really just kind of putting the focus back
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  Speaker 1: on our path, aren't you.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, Jerry Siegel is the one who came up
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  Speaker 2: with the idea, and he was the original writer and
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  Speaker 2: the only writer for the first many years. At some
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  Speaker 2: point Superman became so popular he couldn't possibly do it all,
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  Speaker 2: and then he was drafted in nineteen forty three, spent
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  Speaker 2: two years overseas serving the country, so other people clearly
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  Speaker 2: had to fill in then. And when he came back,
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  Speaker 2: of course, he found that the company had seize control
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  Speaker 2: of everything, even as pal Joe Schuster the artist, and
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  Speaker 2: that's when things started to get rocky.
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  Speaker 1: Wow, we got to know more about this Jerry Siegel
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  Speaker 1: character as well as Joe. Is there an identifier somewhere
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  Speaker 1: in the middle of that?
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  Speaker 3: How can they identify the what now?
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  Speaker 1: The difference between all the different writers and creators. I
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  Speaker 1: want to because I would love to go to a
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  Speaker 1: comic con and just sit there and say, you show me,
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  Speaker 1: you show me what I need to look for, because
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  Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm just going to accept everything as is.
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  Speaker 2: Of course, in the early days, Jerry and Joe got credit.
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  Speaker 2: You know, their creator credit was at the start of
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  Speaker 2: every Superman story, and it was only after Jerry tired
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  Speaker 2: of being abused and cut out of most of the
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  Speaker 2: prophets from his own creation and he got back from
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  Speaker 2: the war and found out everything had been taken over.
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  Speaker 2: Then he got upset and filed suit in nineteen forty seven. Unfortunately,
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  Speaker 2: he lost the su and more importantly, they fired him,
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  Speaker 2: so he can't work on his own creation anymore, and
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  Speaker 2: they stripped his in Joe's name their credits off the strip.
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  Speaker 2: So yeah, so suddenly, you know, Superman is just orphaned.
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  Speaker 2: He's just there with no creators. I mean, we could
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  Speaker 2: argue about the logistics the Jerry and Joe did sign
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  Speaker 2: or release they should never have signed, but removing their
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  Speaker 2: names from their own creation.
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  Speaker 3: That is just wrong.
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  Speaker 2: That's legalities aside, that is morally and ethically wrong.
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  Speaker 1: And you know, as a creative person, we all deal
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  Speaker 1: with this. And when I read a story like this
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  Speaker 1: and this becomes a part of my path, dude, I
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  Speaker 1: got to tell you, I went in there with a
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  Speaker 1: yellow highlighter. And the reason why is because I want
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  Speaker 1: to learn from this so that I can become stronger
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  Speaker 1: and better on my own creative path. I mean, you
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  Speaker 1: really have opened up so many different doors, not for
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  Speaker 1: just Superman fans, but I think a lot of business
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  Speaker 1: and creative fans in the way of understanding how they
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  Speaker 1: can protect their own art.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're totally right.
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  Speaker 2: I hope that's what people take away from this, that
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  Speaker 2: you know, you've got to protect yourself. I hold a
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  Speaker 2: writer's conference every fall, is called writer Con, and one
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  Speaker 2: of the main things we do, in addition to all
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  Speaker 2: the teaching sessions and whatnot, but try and connect people,
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  Speaker 2: you know, make friends, get other writers on your you know,
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  Speaker 2: email lists, and form support groups and beta readers, because
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  Speaker 2: nobody should be doing this alone.
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  Speaker 3: You know, the whole history of.
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  Speaker 2: Comics might have been changed if Jake Siegel had just
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  Speaker 2: had an agent or a lawyer.
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  Speaker 3: But he didn't. He just went in blind. He was young.
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  Speaker 2: His father had passed away when he was seventeen, so
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  Speaker 2: he really had no one to advise him, and he
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  Speaker 2: made some mistakes which he paid for for the entire
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  Speaker 2: rest of his life.
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  Speaker 1: Oh my god. You know what this kind of reminds
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  Speaker 1: me of immediately all of those people that we bumped
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  Speaker 1: into that are tr trying to have success, and you
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  Speaker 1: offer them a better idea and a better plan. Oh
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  Speaker 1: I got this, I got I'm fine. I'm fine, I'm fine.
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  Speaker 1: And it's like it's like whoa, whoa, wait a second,
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  Speaker 1: you just skipped one of the beats. That means you're
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  Speaker 1: now out of harmony. Something's gonna happen here. But I
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  Speaker 1: love your truth in this book because it really does
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  Speaker 1: expose something that says, you know, you don't know the
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  Speaker 1: full story. Now go watch your Superman stories and read
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  Speaker 1: your books.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, it makes it harder, doesn't it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I mean Superman's become a universal global symbol of hope,
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  Speaker 2: representing truth, justice in the American way, but his creator
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  Speaker 2: has got none of the above.
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  Speaker 1: Please do not move. There is more talk about Superman
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  Speaker 1: from William Bernhard coming up next, the name of the
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  Speaker 1: book The Superman Wars. We are back with William Barnhart.
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  Speaker 1: One of my good friends is Sean O'Connell, who's really
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  Speaker 1: into Superman, like in a huge, huge way. I don't
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  Speaker 1: want talk to him about this. Until I can sit
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  Speaker 1: down with him face to face, I have to see
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  Speaker 1: the expressions of those that are receiving because I think
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  Speaker 1: that we're all going to get a different interpretation.
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  Speaker 2: What do you feel, Well, you know, there's been a lot.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know what your friend feels about it. But
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  Speaker 2: not everybody is supportive. You know, some people say, well,
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  Speaker 2: they did sign the agreement, or they did make some
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  Speaker 2: money in the early years, all of which is true.
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  Speaker 2: But first of all, that doesn't compensate for the way
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  Speaker 2: they were treated. You know, the correspondence, some of which
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  Speaker 2: is in my book, between Jack Liebewitz, the guy running
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  Speaker 2: the company for many years, and Jerry Siegel. It's just abusive.
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  Speaker 2: He's rude, he's cruel, he's insulting. He's constantly threatening to
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  Speaker 2: fire Jerry and Joe. And they've supposedly got a ten
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  Speaker 2: year employment agreement. But I don't know what the point
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  Speaker 2: of that is when the boss is constantly threatening to
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  Speaker 2: fire you and then they take over the whole strip.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, it was just you know, granted, this was
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  Speaker 2: years ago, and when Jerry signed the agreement, he thought
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  Speaker 2: he was getting into business with somebody he knew a
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  Speaker 2: man named Major Nicholson who founded the company, but literally
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  Speaker 2: just days before Superman comes out, this new group Donenfelden Leebelwitz,
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  Speaker 2: who had very shady histories, take over, and you know
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  Speaker 2: they do not treat artists as well as the Major did.
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  Speaker 1: Are they giving you space to bring this up at
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  Speaker 1: comic cons and things? Because I would come and just
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  Speaker 1: watch you share this book with everybody, to watch you,
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  Speaker 1: to watch everybody else's reactions. I mean, you bring a
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  Speaker 1: performance with this book.
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  Speaker 3: You know, Superman still got a lot of fans.
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  Speaker 2: And the wonderful thing about comic cons and fans and
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  Speaker 2: fanzines is that they genuinely care about comic creators. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: that's how Jerry and Joe finally got a very small
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  Speaker 2: pension in nineteen seventy five. But at least they weren't
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  Speaker 2: going to starve to death. But that didn't come because
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  Speaker 2: of courts or government or mainstream media. It became because
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  Speaker 2: fans started picking up the story and running it in
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  Speaker 2: fanzines that has small circulations, but eventually it's snowballs and
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  Speaker 2: pretty soon they're on national TV shows. And that's how
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  Speaker 2: they got the pension. Although I have to say that
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  Speaker 2: if you're remembering that from nineteen seventy five and think, oh,
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  Speaker 2: I already know how this story ends, you so don't.
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  Speaker 2: There's fifty more years of conflict after that. That is
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  Speaker 2: where the worm turns a little bit. But it's not
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  Speaker 2: the end of the story.
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  Speaker 1: I swear to God, inside my heart, I can feel Superman.
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  Speaker 2: You know.
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  Speaker 1: Let's just say that Superman is a real authentic person
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  Speaker 1: and he's going All I wanted to do is break
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  Speaker 1: away from my planet, which was blowing up. I come
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  Speaker 1: down here to this planet and everybody's got ownership on me.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know what's going on. I want my ball,
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  Speaker 1: I want to go home.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's particularly ironic because Jerry created this guy,
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  Speaker 2: this character to be the champion of the week and oppressed,
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  Speaker 2: and he kind of reversed the usual, you know, the
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  Speaker 2: usual science fiction trope like Flash Gordon or whatever. He's
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  Speaker 2: an Earth guy who goes someplace else and sorts things out.
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  Speaker 2: But now we've got the alien who comes here and
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  Speaker 2: deals with our problems. And in those early stories, he
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  Speaker 2: was dealing with the many problems of the Great Depression
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  Speaker 2: and looming war in Europe and rising crime and the.
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  Speaker 3: Mob and all that.
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  Speaker 2: You know he did in the very first story in
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  Speaker 2: Action Comics number one, he takes on a spouse beater
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  Speaker 2: and a woman who's about to be wrongfully executed for murder.
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  Speaker 3: You know, the problems of the day.
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  Speaker 1: Well, what are the problems of the day except for
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  Speaker 1: egos that get in the way, Because I think that
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  Speaker 1: our egos are what's standing in the way of understanding
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  Speaker 1: the true history of this character.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's the conflict between art and commerce, which
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  Speaker 2: has been with us for a long time. But another
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  Speaker 2: thing I loved about Jerry Siegel. I mean, he's the writer.
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  Speaker 2: I can relate to him. I can relate to what
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  Speaker 2: he went through to get published, only have it all
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  Speaker 2: ripped out from under him. But he's the first American
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  Speaker 2: author to sue his publisher, you know, to say this
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  Speaker 2: isn't right. And to be fair, it didn't work out
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  Speaker 2: well for him in the short term. He thought the
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  Speaker 2: entire creative community would rise up and support but they
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  Speaker 2: so did not because they were afraid to lose work.
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  Speaker 2: And there's a great letter from nineteen fifty one where
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  Speaker 2: Jack Kirby and Joe Simon, both great comic creators, send
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  Speaker 2: a letter to b DC saying, I just want you
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  Speaker 2: to understand we don't approve of all this stuff Jerry
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  Speaker 2: is doing. I mean, they didn't support him at all.
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  Speaker 2: And then what happens decades later after Jerry and then
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  Speaker 2: after he passes, his family continues to fight and starts
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  Speaker 2: to make some ground. What happens the Jack Kirby estate
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  Speaker 2: decides to sue and they make the same claims.
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  Speaker 3: They even use the same lawyers. Oh god, Oh, Jerry
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  Speaker 3: was paving the way.
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  Speaker 2: He was standing up with nobody else would and many
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  Speaker 2: many people afterwards have benefited from his pipe.
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  Speaker 1: Oh my god, it is the perfect title, The Superman Wars.
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  Speaker 1: You got to come back to this show anytime in
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  Speaker 1: the future, William, and I would love for Sean O'Connell
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  Speaker 1: to sit down with you, because, oh my god, the
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  Speaker 1: two of you together would be the most brilliant conversation
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  Speaker 1: to listen to.
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  Speaker 3: That sounds fun. I'd love to do that.
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  Speaker 1: Excellent. Will you be brilliant today?
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  Speaker 3: Okay, sir, Yeah, thank you you too. Have a good day.