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The "I Had A Great Childhood" Trap · For Love We Heal Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody, welcome back to another episode of the For Love We Heal podcast.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: September 3rd today, and we are heading into fall now.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the summer is coming to an end, and I don't know about you, but um during any particular uh season changing into another, I have feelings that come up for me.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: I get anxious, and it's not related to any particular thought process, although in the past it was you would usually cling on to my relationship, thank goodness.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's over with.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um but it's just a bodily thing, it's a somatic thing, it's an implicit, you know, uh experience that comes up.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: And for those of you, I mean, Cheryl Paul talks has talked a lot about this, you know, and I first heard it from her work where the changing of the seasons for highly sensitive individuals um can feel hard.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: And we like predictability, we like certainty, we like to be able to expect things and anticipate things, and when things are happening around us or beneath us or within us that feel out of our control, it can be very activating for us, and there are reasons for that.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, so just know you're not alone if you are feeling particularly different or more activated or more anxious, and um, yeah, you're definitely not alone in that.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: So um what what do we talk about today?
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: I have Grace uh on the podcast today, and you know, we talk about uh the the I had a great childhood trap.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I get a lot of people messaging me saying, well, if I had good parents and I had a good childhood, and it can I still have RCD?
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: And uh this is definitely the episode for you.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: If you've asked that question, we break down childhood dynamics, we break down um you know a lot related to this uh to this question because trauma or wounding or you know childhood patterns aren't all that um always apparent, you know.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: So we want to help you understand that in detail today.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, thank you for for tuning in, and uh I hope you enjoy today's episode.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the For Love We Hill podcast.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um welcome back, Grace.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: We are talking about Hello, hello.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: How can we be super awkward in our intro?
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: I know, right?
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: We've done it.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um what are we talking?
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking about uh the the the I had a great childhood trap, right?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: And this isn't true for everybody.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, a lot of people that come in and see us are like, you know what, I can see based on your content, Alex, and based on what I've listened to around uh emotionally immature parents, and you know, to the to the uh more uh severe end of things being narcissistic uh abuse, I can see how my childhood fits within the context of that.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: And we get about 30, 30 percent, maybe I would say probably 30% of people that I see, I don't know what what you feel, Grace, but come and say, listen, uh my parents were great.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: I had no, I was there's no trauma.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: And um is it possible that I have ROCD and I and just not have any trauma or not have any wounding?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then the so that's not the the trap.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: We'll talk about the trap of of this.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: There's actually two traps because then what happens is if we think we had a great childhood, then we might jump to the conclusion that it's the our relationship that's that's the problem.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because if nothing happened to cause me to develop these coping strategies of obsessing, of avoiding, or of clinging, then it must be just a sign from my intuition then that I'm in the wrong relationship.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if I can't explain it, it's it's your you know, we fall into this trap as another certainty thing, another way to get evidence and certainty.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously in session, Alex and I are not, well, I'm at least not, I won't speak for you, Alex, but like I'm not saying like, oh yeah, I'm a hundred percent sure that this certain trait that your parent had or this part of your childhood directly caused this, right?
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not I'm not like often using causation language, but what I am saying is that it is correlated in attachment research.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's correlated in anecdotal evidence from Alex and my caseloads and from other practitioners and other companies that I've talked to.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, like it is a it is the most common thread.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Some kind of attachment mismatch wounding, what have you, from your childhood.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: There is nothing, I don't think I've ever had a client that didn't have some attachment wounding.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: Now, that is how how we each categorize trauma might be different, right?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Alex, you know, those of us working in this space, I feel like we tend to have a broader definition of trauma, and I like that.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think that there is a really broad definition.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to have been physically abused to have experienced trauma, and I think that a lot of us kind of stop there.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's it's that like it is so, so common.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, what I the other way that this comes up, besides like I had a good childhood, right?
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because a lot of my clients won't say that.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: But what they will do is when I ask them about their parent, they start with, they might tell me initially, like they'll say something and I'll like, oh, tell me more about that.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll give an example.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'll have a client say something like, Yeah, and like, you know, my mom was emotionally volatile, and then they'll move on to something else.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll be like, oh, interesting.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: Would you be comfortable telling me a little more about how that was for you?
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: And literally almost every time, what they do is they'll say, um, they'll say things like, Oh, well, you know, my mom grew up in a broken home and she had a really rough childhood herself, and like she, she's such a good mom, like she's always been there.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: And like you see what's happening, like they immediately defend the parent before talking about their own experience at all.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: So if you notice yourself wanting to explain to your friends, your practitioner, whoever's asking you about your childhood why your parent might have been the way they are, that's part of this.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's the same, that's kind of the same thing.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: So um I I completely blanked out as you were talking, Grace.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't even know what you said, but um I that's fine.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: I like clued in.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, wait a second, I'm not listening right now.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like we, yeah.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: If we got a new follower for every time that happened, we would have so many followers.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like for both of us.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: No, I was just, yeah, I'll sum it up for you, Alex, again.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's it is, you know, this I notice in clients who have this, who fall into this, I have a good, I had a good childhood trap.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: They try to explain their parents.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, now I'm with you.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm with you.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, well, my mom had a broken home.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: She, you know, it's not her fault.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's not her fault that she treated me that way.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it's because we have this part that just wants to keep our parent in this certain light.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I'm curious what you think about this.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: You see that.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think we I think we have to talk about a couple things.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: We have to talk about loyalty to parents, which is one huge thing.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: And we have to talk about that no, nobody, nobody gets through childhood unscathed.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually it's actually if you zoom out, and depending on what you believe in, from a spiritual from a spiritual perspective, it needs to be this way.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: You need to be able to be scathed because the scathing or the wounding is the vehicle for uh for transformation.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: So so all parents are imperfect, that's one thing.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um obviously more than others.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh trauma, we should talk about trauma can be thought of in in in a couple of different ways.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: I like to sum it up, which which many others talk about too, so it's this isn't my definition, but trauma is anything that happens that exceeds our capacity to deal with it or cope with it to um yeah, to where and where we which and what and why would it exceed our capacity to either deal with it or cope with it?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: Whether well, it could be too big.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's usually too big, and we're a lot usually left alone in it.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what I want.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to jump in really quick and give David Bendrick's um definition.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and it's exactly that.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: It is um, he just says it in a different way.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's like something difficult happened.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: Anything like difficult can mean it can be a wide spectrum, and there was not a loving witness.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: There was not a loving witness to hold you, to listen to you.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we often you often might hear like, who did you tell after a difficult experience?
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people say I told no one.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't tell anyone.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: I was trying to avoid shame.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: I I felt, I don't know.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: I internalized it.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: That that creates trauma in your system when there wasn't a loving witness there to hold you and and be with you in that.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: So, so trauma, you know, in that it's it's something that happens that's difficult where we didn't, you know, we didn't have the support or resources to be able to um process it or move through it, typically because nobody's there, or we don't, we don't have any love that present.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe they're there, but they disbelieve you, or they they're like, come on, it's fine, you're fine.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Or that's kind of the similar thing.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: When I mean when I say that's exactly I'm glad you you said that.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: When I say there, I don't mean physically.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean they weren't someone might have been there, but not emotionally there with you.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Now that could be that could be um uh uh they could be there, they could be uh um uh disproving disapproving of your emotions or or rejecting of your emotions or cold or silent or whatever.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or it could be that they well actually, so it could be that a couple things.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: It could be that they are uh more overtly non-approving of the emotions, or it could be that they're emotionally withdrawn.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it it might mean they actually walk away from you or actually leave you and you're send you to your room or leave you on the floor and go to another room or have a meltdown themselves because they can't handle what's going on for you, right?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like your emotions causes so much distress in them that they emotionally disconnect from you and they have their own emotions to where then you feel like you need to take care of them and their emotions, so you abandon yourself in service of caretaking the parent because it's feels worse to be in your own, it feels worse to have your parent have their own uh exactly than you be in yours.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: So you and you abandon your own emotions in service of now.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's typically a a scenario that plays out for ROCD clients.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: But the trauma doesn't have the trauma generally with ROCD folks isn't being hit, isn't being sexually abused, although many people that we work with do have sexual abuse history or you know, physical abuse history, it's more the emotional, either um uh overt emotional abuse, which could be criticism, uh uh guilt tripping, things like that, or it could be the covert, which is more of the subtle ways that you know our parent gives us a signal that we are they're disapproving of us, there's disdain, there's looks of contempt, whatever it might be.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot involved.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think the important thing to understand about all this is that um if you have the symptoms of ROCD obsessing, uh avoiding and clinging, right?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: So like OCD and then the disorganized attachment patterns, then it would be impossible for you to not have had some attachment rupture.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: And and this might not this might not fully resonate at yet for some of you.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna venture to say not just some, but a lot.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: Little like you, you know, uh we we would think of complex trauma as being some people refer to as death by a thousand paper cuts.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: So not catastrophic moments that are meta that are uh memorable per se to a degree that say, yeah, that definitely happened.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: I remember when my dad beat the shit out of me, right?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: But more of this little look or this side comment or the or a meltdown where we had to console our parent or feeling, you know what I mean, like all these little things living in an environment that was is supported by uh needing to uh conform in a certain way to be accepted.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: Feeling like I'll let you talk in a second, Grace, but it's it usually the environment of someone with ROCD isn't an obvious one to where you say, Yeah, my childhood was really shitty.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: You have to we that the the subtlety usually mixed with the denial and the loyalty makes it very hard to recall.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Plus, if we have nothing else to compare our childhood to, like if we've never seen like genuinely secure, down-to-earth, loving parents, unconditionally loving parents, you're never gonna know if your childhood was good or bad.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's just is.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: It was what it was.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: You're just comparing it to media portrayal of abuse.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you have friends who had a really difficult childhood and it was very overt, so you're comparing your that's all you can do.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: I always use the phrase like the water you're swimming in, right?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like if your child, your childhood was your fish bowl and you're swimming around in there and you're not gonna know what other bowls there are or what the ocean looks like, right?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: You're you're not gonna understand that.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, for some of us and some of my clients, honestly, myself included, for the most part, like until I started doing ideal parent figure imagery, didn't really feel have a felt sense of what was missing.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: I I did a lot of work before that on like discovering these things about my childhood that weren't ideal, healing wounds, but like I didn't, that was all cognitive, right?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't have a felt sense of like, oh, I really needed this at times, and I didn't get it.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, throughout the process of if you're dealing with parentification wounding, um, that's we we talk about that almost every episode, but there is an episode specifically on that.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: So look that up in our episodes if you don't, if you're not familiar with that.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, healing from that and coming to so differentiation, you know, is the process of like separating yourself from your parents and and like being you, no matter kind of what they there's a lot we could say about differentiation, but that process individuation.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Individuation.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the process of even just recognizing where there are, you know, where there were difficulties and where your childhood was not ideal.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the process of recognizing that sometimes comes with a lot of shame.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've just noticed that in my client work.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: I noticed that in my own life.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's just there's a lot of moments of doubt, especially if you are someone with relationship anxiety or ROCD.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, there's a lot of like, am I just, am I just doing this to try to get myself, you know, closer to an answer?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Is this not true?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: And and you're gonna notice those same patterns, notice them.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're thinking that about your partner already, probably in a lot of ways, right?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's a constant redirection of your attention back to the truth, right?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're talking about scientifically studied, empirically studied attachment stuff here, right?
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like there is a link, um, an unequivocal link between these things.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think that um I wanted to bring up shame again because I think that it can just keep people from looking at this.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: It really and with loyalty.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: I know we're gonna talk about loyalty to parents.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's another thing, but shame is also a barrier that keeps people from recognizing this.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I just think for me, when I started my own ROCD work, I didn't I didn't have any sense that it was connected to my parents or my childhood.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: Not even a little bit.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, there's no connection.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: And my therapist at the time was very skilled, luckily, right?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: And started to inquire into it.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, this is crazy.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like this has there's no connection.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then I would notice that when something would happen with my parents, my ROCD would first would like, or a family dinner, a vacation, a whatever, all of a sudden I'd be like, I'm in therapy, I don't know what's going on, I'm feeling so avoidant, I'm feeling so anxious, and they're like, Have you seen your parents recently?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd be like, that that doesn't mean we didn't talk about my relationship, and it's like it doesn't feel connected in your cognitive mind, and it is.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: I on purpose.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: On purpose, it's on purpose, you part of you disconnects you from your childhood.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: This is what happens for everybody, uh most people, you know.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: We if we have these parts that that exile are wounding, and then we blame it on other things, you know, we project it onto other things as a way to not feel and deal with it.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: So now let's talk about loyalty, right?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: So um Dan uh Pete Walker, uh, who wrote Complex PTSD, it's a fantastic book.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he has a quote that says, Children so need to love their parents that they will deny and minimize away even the most egregious acts of neglect and abuse.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: They so need to be uh what did I just say?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: They so need to love their parents or be loved both by their parents, I should add, that they will deny and minimize away even the most egregious neglect and abuse.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: And if they're minimizing the most egregious neglect and abuse, you can sure as heck believe that they're even more easily, they, us, we, are even more easily denying and ignoring covert stuff.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: And and someone else said this, uh, the quote, like kids that are abused don't stop loving their parent, they stop loving themselves.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's because the the attachment relationship between parent and child is so imperative to survival that um children will do almost anything, and some children are different because some children and and young adults realize a lot earlier on that this hurts so fucking bad that like the pain of of betrayal and whatever outweighs the desire to stay connected to the parent.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: But in a lot of cases, the attachment connection is so imperative to survival, especially at an early age.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Children don't question the parents, they question themselves, they blame themselves, they they they shame themselves, and this is what you're getting with ROCD the shame spirals, and I'm terrible and I'm such a bad person, and I'd be such a horrible person if I made a mistake.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's the exact thing that's internalized shame.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's turning the shame or the criticism, I should say, inward toward oneself to police ourselves, to behave, to obsess, to avoid.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Making a mistake so that we preserve the attachment connection.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why when you're with your partner, the obsession is an attempt to figure out certainty whether or not you're making a mistake to avoid hurting someone that would result in attachment disruption because we're afraid that we'll be left and we'll be unloved and all that stuff.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it's we can really tie it now.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to an OCD specialist on this, they're just dealing with the cognitive and the behavioral things.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: They're not they're not trained in attachment, they're not looking at this.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: So they're not gonna treat it as though it's an attachment wound.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's pretty frigging obvious to me.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think like if you're someone who likes research and who wants to know that there's empirical data on this, like there, there definitely is.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: I wish I came prepared with like more, but there is that famous study, Alex.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: That famous attachment study where they I I've watched all the videos um of this.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know which one I'm talking about with kids and the parent leaves the room?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: The strange one, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: And like, you know, they've they've also they've done studies where they've like followed adults throughout, I think they've done like longevity study, where they've followed adults like in in adulthood and and you know looked at attachment patterns.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: And what they've found, and correct me if I'm wrong, Alex, but what they found is that people, uh children with inconsistent parents have the worst outcomes.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I I hope I don't I don't think I'm making this up.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: I I need to like maybe while you're talking, I'll look up the study.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: But like that was surprising to scientists because scientists believed oh, people from like consistently abusive households will will statistically have the worst outcomes, but it's it's the inconsistent ones.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it's because you're in, you develop hypervigilance, which all of us with RSCD have.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: You develop checking as a way to keep yourself safe in a situation that is sometimes safe, sometimes not, sometimes supportive, sometimes not.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, like I just have noticed that pattern with my clients that most of the time when we talk about childhood, there's inconsistency.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes their parent was really, really emotionally present, and sometimes they were not.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and sometimes they were, and it was unpredictable, and that is actually more canceling.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's more damaging.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: It can be more damaging, and it is abuse, it is abuse.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's the inconsistency, the the is abusive because what we see in it, and if we take this further into kind of the the the blueprint, the the the childhood blueprint, we see that even when it's good.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now we're what we're talking about is you know, there's a thing called euphoric recall, which kids or adult children of of you know homes like this, will they they are we're we're we're we're we're only thinking about the good.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: We're thinking about the good times, not the bad times.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's loyalty and it's all that.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: But the the inconsistency, even when we even the euphoric recall of times it was good, with parents that I see with relationship OCD, even when it was good, it was never about you.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: It was never this is a hard pill to swallow.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: This is probably a hard pill to swallow.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: But usually with parents of people with ROCD, their their childhoods were s so neglectful that they are so self-preserving that it's it was the good times depended on certain things.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: It depended on how well you were behaving, how much we would call supply that the parents getting to feel um uh worthy, how much attention they're getting, you know, uh how how well you are acting or behaving.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um so the subtle thing that set that develops is like you st it's still very unpredictable, but we I mean we we kind of go through, yeah, but let me hear the slow, yeah, but they weren't all bad.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: They weren't all bad.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like there was times when my mother was so nurturing and blah blah blah.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm and I often say, that's fine.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: We're not t we don't first of all, we don't want to touch the we're not touching the good stuff.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: You're not in therapy because because of the good stuff.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: We're not talking about your problems because of the times that your mom, your fa mother and father were good to you.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking about the times that were shitty.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'll just finish on that note.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we have to be willing to look at why at the things that were less than ideal if we're able to move through this thing.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: And and the, you know, for many people, that is a barrier to coaching or therapy.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Are you just gonna ask me about my parents?
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: Are you because that's kind of the stereotype, right?
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, are you just gonna blame my parents?
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: Are you just like, I don't want to do that, I have other problems, like it's not that.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, it it's a real barrier.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it comes from the loyalty, it comes from the not, you know, the very adaptive, arguably adaptive and protective parts of you that don't want to go there, don't want to open that back up.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe there's shame.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: I've heard a lot of people's parents say, Oh, I heard you went to therapy, did you talk about me?
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's like a classic narcissistic uh parent thing where they're like, oh, I bet you've shittled over me in therapy.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's like, so there's shame from that.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of it.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: And we, you know, when we do this work with clients, we, you know, and and I would argue most coaches and therapists in this attachment space, RCD space, are gentle.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: We're not gonna like bring you into session and be like, all right, I'm I'm gonna force you to tell me all the ways your parents suck, right?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're we're truncating our process, obviously, into a small, like, you know, we we understand that you have parts that are like, I can't go there, I don't want to go there, this is annoying.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: They get frustrated, bring it, right?
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like that I am, I'm I welcome those parts in session with clients because I have them too.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: We you and I both do.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: We've talked about our peers on this podcast and both had moments where we're like, ugh, I feel I don't want like I've I don't want my mom to hear this.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want, you know, it's just it's normal.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so just, you know, I whenever I have a peer or someone I meet that that really wants to do therapy, but is like, I just feel like they're gonna make me talk about my family.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: I always share that.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: As I'm like a skilled practitioner, is going to be gentle because we know that there's all these patterns and these barriers there.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I say all that to say, because if you're listening to this, you're probably doing the work already, either on your own or with a practitioner.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: If you're not, that's awesome, right?
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: But like I say this because I want you to um, because what do I want?
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, because I don't want you to, you know, not be curious about this part of your experience.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: This is it is crucial to your healing to get curious about this.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're not doing the work and you're listening to this, what a great opportunity to start doing the work.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right, start to get curious.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: So come into why not join uh my you know, our course and community.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I actually broken it into two branches.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, uh for four uh let me let me let's talk about this.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: So um a good way to get your feet wet and to start doing the work is to come into the the course, which is is broken into foundation and circle.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: Foundation, you get 12 my 12-hour course.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you get an app that I built with Claude, and you get a uh WhatsApp community to communicate with others in.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: And the cool thing about the app is it has it it guides you through the work that we're talking about, the IFS work that we're talking about.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: It also has a symptom checker.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're spiraling on something and something's there for you and you don't know what it is, you plug it into the symptom checker and it will match you to the exact thing that's coming up from that moment, what part of you?
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: So let's say you're having a breakup urge, it will then it will then pull up the part that is connected to the breakup urges, which gives you a profile of the part, why it's why it's doing it, what its fears are, what it's protecting inside of you.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then it will invite you to actually enter into a session with that specific part so you can do parts work with it and actually uncover it and do the work that we do here at For Lovely Heal.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to upgrade, so that's 47 bucks a month.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to upgrade and join the the weekly support groups that um I offer, um uh uh if you get all of that plus weekly support groups, so it's people are finding it to be incredibly helpful and getting a lot of really positive feedback on the app.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, people are using it every day, and uh I'm just getting emails, people saying, This has been a game changer for me.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's so great to have this app to be able to carry around with me.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's been helping so much, right?
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm so happy to hear that it's actually benefiting people because you know, I'm like, is this actually gonna fucking help people or is it not?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: But people are reaching out, so I'm I'm feeling more confident that this is actually going to help you if you decide to sign up for it.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um so let's get back.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: So there's the there's the sales pitch for all of you.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought I thought it was a good place to enter because you said if you're not, I was like, oh, that's a great position.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: If you're not exactly if you're not doing the work, get curious about this and consider that, right?
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's like tiers of support with this work, right?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's um self-study being the lowest tier, right?
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: Lowest not meaning worse, just like lowest support tier, right?
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: Self-study.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of material on ROCD.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then the next, the next step would be tier one of Alex's membership, as he mentioned, you know, having that app, having a WhatsApp community, the course, and then, you know, tier three is with live weekly support groups and being in community is so important with ROCD because it's so isolating.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: It just feels like you're the only one because your friends, your family don't experience it.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like it feels like you're the only one, and then all of a sudden you're like in a Zoom room with all these people that are like, oh me, too, me, too me, too me too.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's so when people ask me like what kick started my healing, it was that.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: It was literally just being in the room with people who get it.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then obviously the tier on top of that is one-on-one work, right?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: Which like there's no replacement for one-on-one work.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I know that we, I'm not exactly sure what's happening with our with our stuff, but I know we probably probably have a little bit of a wait list for one-on-one work right now.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: But like, you know, still reach out because uh and if you can't work with us and you want to do one-on-one right away, like I mean, do reach out to us.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, get on our waiting list and like I just always we're going the community, go in wait in the support group.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: In the community and wait in the support group, exactly.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because then you're gonna get you're still gonna get support from Alex in those groups as you wait for a spot to go.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: We did we did last week's support group we were in, everyone was crying.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was like, I I feel like right now, uh, you know, there people are showing up regularly and everyone's building a relationship and stuff.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: So when you come in, you'll be part of that.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: You'll have a you'll have a you'll, you know, the same people, not everyone.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, cut some people come in and out, but there is a regular crew that comes and everyone's getting to know each other.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, last time, like people were saying, Oh, I love you, and it's so good to be with all of you, and like there's a real community element, and you know, I think we're we're breaking down the barriers to to be able to just really be seen and known and understood in a way that just doesn't happen in individual work because these are your peers, these are people that are on in the trenches with you.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really fun.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: I love running the groups, and um, and people are are you know saying that they're getting so much out of it.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: So uh we'll end that, we'll end that here.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I just you know, if you're interested, all of the links to everything will be in the show notes, or if you're watching on YouTube, it'll be in the description below.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: So let's so I think we we we generally covered everything, but I think what's what's coming up for me is you know, what could this look like?
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: Can we give some examples, Alex, of like as people are starting to look inward, think about their past, think about their current relationship with their parents.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I wonder if maybe let's bring up some examples of like what this more covert you know, attachment wounding can look like.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I if it's okay for me to start, I can bring up just a couple like examples without being specific at all about specific clients, obviously, but like things that I've seen, things that I've experienced is, you know, getting all like getting curious about how you feel when you go visit your family now.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, like you have dinner with your family.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: You maybe not holidays, because holidays are stressful kind of no matter what, but like maybe, I don't know, you know, like what is it like?
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: How do you feel going in and coming out of an interaction with your family?
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that is a really interesting and good place to start without assigning a bunch of meaning to everything, right?
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: Just notice.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: How do I feel beforehand?
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times people would be like, I don't know why, but I feel I feel like I'd rather do anything else and I don't know why.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's that.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: There's also like afterwards be like really drained, really tired.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe your RSDD symptoms might just notice.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of the first step here.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's like we we can help you with like meaning, right?
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: If that's if that's interesting to you, but I want you to just notice that.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: Just start noticing it and notice if shame comes in as you notice.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: Notice if shame's coming in right now.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right, as I'm saying it.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, are you thinking, are you now thinking, oh no, what if I start to notice things in my relationship with my parents, and then it causes me to not want to be in connection with them anymore.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: Does it make me does it make me bad?
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: I also hear that I don't want to spend time with my family.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: I have to.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: They're my family.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and instead of jumping right to, you know, Alex, what you and I would probably jump to, which is like, no, you don't.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: You actually don't.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we won't, you know, some people aren't ready for that, right?
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it's okay, let's look at that.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: What, why, why does that make you bad?
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, because I'm supposed to love my parents and love my family and who wouldn't feel like I'm okay with it.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: Who wouldn't be okay with it?
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: And who told you that?
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: Who who taught you that, right?
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like following the line of inquiry is kind of what we're asking.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one thing is notice how your body feels, how your emotions are before and after and during interactions.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: And notice I I started to track this a little bit because that's just how my brain works.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: When my ROCD was really bad, like it felt like random spikes, it was always correlated with some kind of like maybe not altercation, but like stressful interaction with my family.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I started to, I was like, oh, my attachment wounds are I eventually realized that, right?
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: So tracking that can be really interesting.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, that's my kind of first example.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: Is how you feel around your family.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is great.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: This is great.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I would say that's that is like what we want to start doing, right?
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: So we're tracking how do you feel with your family.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: Now, some of you might be in, like I was uh some of you might be in um now.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: This is interesting.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: Let me think for a second.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: So what can happen is is we can enter and exit honeymoon phases with our parent, too.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: Which means, and I don't mean like you're romantically involved with obviously.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but what I mean is is that after a period of upheaval or stress or a parent reacting to something or not approving of something or being, you know, shutting down or uh having whatever, the re-engaging with that parent after that and it being okay is can be a problematic because at that time when things are really good with the parent, we're extra in denial because it's everything that we wanted to happen since we were young.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: For it's very common for folks with RCD to have this dynamic, which makes sense when when people, those of us are like really attracted to emotionally unavailable people.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: We're like addicted to getting the attention approval here and there, right?
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: That cor correlates to this period of um uh connection and disconnection between the caregiver, right?
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: And when we get back into connection with that caregiver, because it feels so good and and the fear you know resolved or or at least um goes down, and we feel like it's everything we've ever wanted, all we want is to be in love and connection with our caregiver.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want to do anything to upset the balance of that again.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where also where denial comes in because I can't I never want to feel the way I feel every time my parent goes away from me in some way.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: And because the because the parent with from OCD or OCD is particularly more emotionally immature and can be manipulative, it always kind of feels like your fault.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: The the the fallout the falling from grace from the parent is always made to be your fault.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: So you internalize the disconnection as your fault, you internalize that shame and badness as your fault, and that's why you're so you're so hyper-aware and focused on other people's moods around you.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because what if I do something or say something or act in a certain way that causes other people to want to go away from me or not like me or judge me?
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's all connected to that relationship with the parent.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: So because parents of ROCD have even an almost impossible or impossible capacity to take accountability for their actions and have a sense of empathy, everyone in their circle revolves if they're in connection with them, has to revolve around them in a way that is in service to the person.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: As soon as someone says that they don't like something or they don't they don't appreciate something or whatever, the parent reacts, play, goes into victim mentality.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, I can't believe you'd think that of me, and oh, I'm such a terrible parent, and the victimization is a form of manipulation which guilt the the individual around them to feel bad for them, to try and work to get back in their graces, even though they didn't do anything wrong, but they believe they did because the victimization makes them feel that way, and the whole cycle continues.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: So this is problematic because the victim and the victimization uh tactic it is really good at at not taking accountability.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like, so there's no way to regain connection with this individual unless you ty somehow apologize or take responsibility for them.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: So you end up continually taking responsibility in service of maintaining that attachment connection to where you are carrying around this massive burden of shame, you know, when it's not yours to begin with, it's theirs.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, see how that leaves.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's yeah, that's a really really good um yeah, that was really explanation of that.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't have said it better.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: I had a couple things that I was.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Going to mention and you said it all.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I think, like, you know, there's well, what I was going to mention, and I won't spend too long on this because this is kind of maybe for another episode, but like there's kind of a a grieving that comes with some of this.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you notice that, Alex, but like there's there's kind of a sadness that at least I got, and I know some of my clients start to feel when they notice.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like when you reach adulthood and you notice your you realize your parents aren't perfect and they're flawed, and there's kind of this like there you might have like a resurgence of that, and and you might kind of feel like disappointed or angry, or you know, lots of emotions might come up, and just allowing that, you know, none of it means, you know, something bad about you, right?
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: Even even though, you know, we all have parts that might believe that.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: But it's it's there is because there's a dissonance between there's this is that loyalty piece, right?
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: How it's supposed to be and how it is, and your your you know, young parts are always gonna try to make it how it's supposed to be.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that reminds me of being attracted to the unavailable partner, which you just mentioned.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: We have this wish to finish a story, yeah, to get the satisfying ending.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why we're so addicted to that like unavailable person.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I know for me, I was like, oh man, I love a, I love a like, I love an unavailable man who changes for me.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: I love an unavailable man who like I am the exception, never commits, but he did commit to me.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I like I hate to admit, if any of them are listening, sorry, but like I hate to admit that like a number of my exes were that way, and it was so satisfying.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then starvation.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then then the roller coaster, then the right.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, you know, we have an unavailable partner or um why why I want my exo bad, I think is the name of the episode.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: But it talk, we talk a lot about this, so go listen to that.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: But it it has to do with that, like wanting to get the satisfying ending that you didn't get in your attachment story.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, and and I just I bring up the grief piece.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: I know I'm kind of jumping all over, because I do have a couple clients I'm working with, you know, or I have worked with around this where they kind of get sad and they're like, man, like family dinners and family gatherings are even harder now that I realize this.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: Talking on the phone with my parents is even worse, even more excruciating because I'm noticing it.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: And you will have a period of time where that is true, where you're in this transition where you're having this, and it doesn't, it still doesn't mean anything is, it still doesn't mean that looking into it was wrong.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: I've had some people like, oh, I wish I never noticed this.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, I understand that, but if you want to heal, exactly, you kind of gotta, you gotta see, and I'll be beside we'll we'll be beside you as you heal, but you do have to look at it.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like what's more important?
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the thing, what's more important?
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: You and and your and your relationship as a byproduct, or maintaining the status quo with with parents who and I don't say this to demonize your parents, but is it are you is it more important to prioritize you and as a result your relationship?
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because getting through RCD requires us, or maintaining the status quo with unhealthy parents.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's really you pick.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the thing, it's a choice.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and and we're not here saying one is better than the other, although we do know what feels better than the other, but the choice is yours, and and and it's painful.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like it is required it's a requirement to get through this and look at it.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: The requirement is that you have to face the grief and and the reality that life is not what it seemed.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um and not only that, oftentimes, probably all in every case, this requires now not not just recognizing your parent how your parents played a role in your trauma and your RCD, but setting boundaries individuation, which we've done podcast episodes on.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because if if you are still in the same dynamics with your parents that you always were, and you are under their control in a sense, their emotional mental emotional control, you can't break ROCD before you start to reorganize yourself within that system to be a healthy, autonomous individual.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like you you can still be kind of caught in it, like your parts can be still kind of caught in it, but unless you start recognizing and prioritizing yourself and speaking for what's important for you and what your needs are, and and defend standing up for yourself and not saying yes when it means no, like not saying yes to your parents when you really want to say no, and just placating them and keeping the peace, ROCD is not going to shift all that much.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's that's the hard, that's the hard truth of this, really.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um and gosh, I like oh no, okay, I got my train of thought back.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, the if you are someone who you're listening to this and you're like, I don't know, you know, maybe you're a little overwhelmed with all this information.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: You feel that there might be something, but you don't really know what your parents are doing that was missing, or you don't know, and you're doing you're in the self-inquiry phase, right?
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: You're not working directly one-on-one with us.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: You're like in this self-inquiry phase.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think, Alex, that ideal parent figure is really helpful.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think we have in this, in the For Love We Heal podcast, you can look for ideal parent figure imagery.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: There are two versions, one with music, one without.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it is kind of a visualization meditation where you conjure these ideal parents who are not your parents, and it can help recognize gaps.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very supportive process, by the way.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a meditation that is like it's meant to make you feel good, right?
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a comforting meditation.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, nothing uncomfortable.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, I mean, you might get parts of it.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: You might get Oh, but I'm abandoning my parents by doing ideal parents.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: There's another sign that you uh that you're uh rentified by your but that might help kind of start to guide you on like what did I need that I didn't get?
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because for me, that really helped me like specify um just just feeling what it's like to have have all the things I really, really needed, you know.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: So so that could be a good, I know we're we're heading towards the end, and I wanted to give people like, yeah, a good a suggestion of like where they can start to explore this, other than noticing how you feel around your your family.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, yeah.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: So and also just to just to leave off, you know, like I know I said ROCD is not gonna do that all that much until you deal with your parents.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: Just don't take that like I don't want you to think that RCD well nothing will happen with that, you know what I mean.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think that a lot's gonna happen as you just get curious and identify the patterns that you've been existing in within your family system.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, so don't think that you need to today go to your mom or dad and say, I'm tired of this shit, fuck off, or whatever.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: But and and you know, wouldn't recommend doing it that way anyway, but getting curious about your place within the family system, the role that you've played, um uh the roles between you and your parents, and and and how that fits with your overall issue with ROCD, and then you can begin to think about for you as an individual what that means for you in relationship to your parents.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like it might be that you set boundaries that say, like, hey, you know, like um, you know, the the way that you speak, I don't know, just throwing things out there, um, I don't appreciate being spoken to that way.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: Or if your parents calling you all the time, venting about their life and all their emotions, and you feel like you're just listening and listening and listening, and they're not curious about you, then it might be listen, I've done a lot of thinking about this, and I don't feel like I can help you with this stuff anymore.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: I would recommend that you go find a therapist to deal with that.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's a boundary.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to be in the position where I'm hearing all of your struggles.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that is like those things.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to downplay those suggestions, Alex, because those are per those are perfect.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you you those are what you should do.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like that's like the golden the gold standard.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: So work your way to that.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_01: In the meantime, right?
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: If you're if you're dipping your toe, I'm all for being uncomfortable.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying like don't like stay in your comfort zone.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: You are gonna have to get out of your comfort zone a bit here.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, I'll just share that like the first steps we're not answering.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: They're calling and calling, they're texting, they're that's I mean, we we we use that example because that is the most common, is like my parent events to me about their own life and their marriage and whatever else.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: We should have added that in too.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_00: We kind of need to.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_00: Not answering.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_01: You're not answering, right?
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're you're the boundary, you are likely going to have to set an actual boundary, like Alex said.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, uh, you're not gonna be able to coast on the like not answering forever.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but and but right, you can start with that.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_01: Check in with yourself as that phone is ringing.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: It is, you know, how am I feeling?
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: Do I really have space for this?
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_01: Do I even do that?
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_01: Do I want to answer this?
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: And the answer is no, you don't answer.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like your parents made it this far in life, and it's not, it's just not your responsibility.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's not your responsibility, it never was your responsibility.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_00: It never was.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_00: This is the whole issue.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_00: You struggle with ROCD, the torture that you have with ROCD, and as I say, I'm not demonizing anybody because they had their own difficult childhood, is because of your parents.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_00: Dun dun dun.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-oh.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_00: So stop blaming you and stop blaming your partner and blame your parents.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now you don't do that in a way that I said that says, you know, um, where you you you take responsibility for your own part, but you don't point the finger where it doesn't belong.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: And if you feel guilty, I I saw and we'll end here.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: I know you have to leave here, Grace, but I just want to say one if you feel guilty, I I was in a forum uh not too long ago, and I posted something, and someone posts back that said, guilt is the little part that the narcissist puts in your head to police you into behaving in a way that maintains the the relationship in the way that they want it to be.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's so good.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_01: I need you to write that down for me.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_01: I need to, that is so good.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that is that directly correlates with.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: I know I like I'm such a David Bedrick fangirl, I talk about him all the time, but like that directly correlates with his shame research and work, which I think is so shame, is an external force.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_01: Guilt is shame, right?
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's it's planted within you from outside of you.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_01: You are not born feeling bad.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this is interesting.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_00: This is interesting.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have a whole lot of time to talk about this.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_00: So guilt and shame are different.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: Guilt is I've done something wrong, shame is I am wrong.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_01: I am wrong, right.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: Right now, I think in that quote that I that quoted, if we correct it a little bit, because I do have a bit of an autistic probably mind that doesn't like things out of place.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I think if we're being more accurate, it's that that the the parent gives us a critic that guilts us into so in other words into believing, yes, into behaving in a way that maintains the relationship with them in the way that they want it to be.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: And as soon as we step out of that, that that critic that they gave us implanted in us, which we feel as guilt or sh right, that that activates guilt or shame, is that there isn't ours, it's theirs, it's not ours, it's so that's pretty fucked up.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's pretty fucked up because do you want to really listen anymore to that?
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I just want to leave you with that, and um um so when you feel guilty, just remember that whose voice is it?
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_00: When when someone when you're getting criticized and saying, whose voice is this right now?
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: Is this mine?
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's actually a really good self-inquiry tool that I use all the time.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_01: Is this whose whose voice who does this remind me of?
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, whose voice is this?
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that will like very quickly get you some.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_00: And one other thing.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have one other second?
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_00: One more second.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_00: Here's another interesting thing about Shame that I didn't realize until uh this girl, this woman in the uh, she's a Danish woman in the IFS community.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_00: I forget her name, but if uh if anyone's listening, just keep in mind this is her, this is what she told me.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Anastes, I I forget her name, but she made a good point.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of people, a lot of like IFS people would say like there's literally no use for shame.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like guilt's yes, because guilt motivates us to correct our behavior, behavior, right?
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_00: But shame they say is shame is is not productive.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_00: Now she says shame is productive because notice how a child like notice how a child gets shy?
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's shame.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like shyness is shame.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know how we kind of go, cheeks get a little rosy, and we're like, that's that is productive shame because it's uh it's in a way, and I could be butchering this.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: This is just I'm just theorizing right now, but there's a social cue with it, and someone that's empathetic will go, Oh, hot, you come on in, like, you know, it's okay, and there's some reassurance that happens.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_00: There's people that aren't empathetic that have been shamed will say, What a pussy, or you know, what a he's so shy, he's so shy.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_00: But there is a productive sort of innocence to shame that's not corrosive or toxic.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's so I think there's a difference.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have enough time to go into it, but I just want people to know.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, we should pin it.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_01: We should pin guilt and shame for an episode because I think that that, and then I can do a little, I can bring a little bit more of my views because I I know that Dave and Bedrick would say there is absolutely no use for shame.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, would he?
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, he's in that canton.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that it's something that can be debated and talked about.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think we could do, yeah, let's pin it.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_01: Let's do like a good episode on guilt and shame.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's fine.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the thing, the thing is, is honestly, like, I believe that if it wasn't necessary in some capacity, it wouldn't be there.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe, maybe on a human level, it uh and a psychological level, no, but maybe on a spiritual level, shame does something.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_00: So interesting.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, we could well, so I just want to thank everyone for tuning in.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_00: I've held Grace up, she's gonna go to work.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but uh, I hope this was helpful for everybody.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_00: And again, if you want to uh if you want to check out uh this work and do dive in deeper, check out the uh the freedom freedom course, which uh is in the show notes.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_00: And uh if you want to work to us one-to-one, we'd be happy to uh see you.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh just just apply.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_00: We might have a waiting list, but we might have space.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_00: You just I'll have to look at our numbers, but if you want to get in to see us, uh do so there, and uh everything's in the show notes.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, Grace.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_00: And thanks, everyone.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_00: All right, bye-bye.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_00: See everyone next time.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.