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Pilot Goes "BESERK," CUTS FUEL AT 31,000 FEET · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.
0:12
Speaker 2: Worst nightmare.
0:15
Speaker 3: You have no control, you're trapped, you're actually belted in,
0:22
Speaker 3: you can't move, and you find out there is a
0:27
Speaker 3: life or deathmatch fight going on in the cockpit of
0:32
Speaker 3: the plane.
0:34
Speaker 2: You're just a passenger. You can't do a thing. But
0:38
Speaker 2: it's not really a nightmare. It happened.
0:41
Speaker 3: It happened where a pilot goes into the cockpit and
0:46
Speaker 3: tries to bring the plane down.
0:50
Speaker 2: I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
0:53
Speaker 3: Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories
0:55
Speaker 3: and on Serious XM one eleven.
0:57
Speaker 2: What happened? Listen to give you a heads up.
1:00
Speaker 4: We've got the kind to try to shut into or
1:03
Speaker 4: down the cockpit.
1:05
Speaker 5: It was supposed to be a typical Sunday night flight
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Speaker 5: from Everett, Washington to San Francisco. It was anything but. Midflight,
1:11
Speaker 5: the camptain made an announcement to passengers that there was
1:14
Speaker 5: a disturbance in the cockpit. A few minutes later, a
1:16
Speaker 5: flight attendant announced over the loudspeaker that the plane was
1:19
Speaker 5: in an emergency situation and needed to land immediately. Another
1:23
Speaker 5: fifteen minutes passed and the flight attendant announced there was
1:25
Speaker 5: a medical emergency.
1:27
Speaker 3: An emergency, not necessarily a medical emergency.
1:30
Speaker 2: As everyone sits there glued to their seats wondering what's happening.
1:34
Speaker 3: There was, as I said, a life or death battle
1:36
Speaker 3: going on in that cockpit with eighty.
1:40
Speaker 2: Three souls at risk.
1:43
Speaker 3: Again, thank you for being with us here at crime
1:45
Speaker 3: stories and what a crime this is. Joining me an
1:48
Speaker 3: all star panel to make sense of what we know
1:52
Speaker 3: right now.
1:52
Speaker 2: But first I want to go out to Mattias.
1:55
Speaker 3: Gaffney, investigative reporter with the San Francisco Chronicle. Mattias, thank
2:00
Speaker 3: you for being with us. What exactly happened? Let me
2:04
Speaker 3: start with a narrow question in the cockpit, who.
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Speaker 2: Is forty four year old Joseph Emerson.
2:12
Speaker 6: So he's a young father, and he's a pilot that's
2:17
Speaker 6: relatively new to Alaska Airlines, and the day of this incident,
2:22
Speaker 6: he's off duty and he's flying in what they call
2:25
Speaker 6: the jump seat of the cockpit, which is basically like
2:28
Speaker 6: a third seat right behind the pilots and a very
2:32
Speaker 6: small cockpit, and he's basically getting a free flight. A
2:36
Speaker 6: lot of pilots these days they commute to their jobs.
2:39
Speaker 6: And so he lives in the San Francisco Bay area,
2:43
Speaker 6: and so it appears that he may have been just
2:44
Speaker 6: flying home to FFO.
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Speaker 2: So hold on, he was rightfully on the plane, correct.
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Speaker 6: Correct, off duty as a pilot, but he was essentially
2:53
Speaker 6: a passenger on the plane, and.
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Speaker 2: He was in the cockpit correct.
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Speaker 6: Correct.
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Speaker 3: Let me ask you a couple of lightning roundquestions. A
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Speaker 3: lot of people have sent in email questions. I'm going
3:03
Speaker 3: to ask them to you as you go along. Mattias
3:06
Speaker 3: Gafney joining us in the San Francisco Chronicle.
3:09
Speaker 2: So this guy, a forty four year.
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Speaker 3: Old dad Mary, Dad, was rightfully in the cockpit in
3:17
Speaker 3: the jump seat. Anybody that's flung you know what that is.
3:19
Speaker 3: You obviously the flight attendants where there's coffee and all that,
3:23
Speaker 3: they bring down a little, very slender seat and they
3:28
Speaker 3: sit on that and then it folds back up. Is
3:30
Speaker 3: that what you're talking about, Matias?
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Speaker 6: No, that is out. Those are outside the cockpit. This
3:35
Speaker 6: is inside the door.
3:36
Speaker 2: But is that what it is?
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Speaker 6: It's essentially a small, tight, narrow seat that fits within
3:44
Speaker 6: the cockpit though, so this is behind the locked cockpit doors.
3:47
Speaker 3: So he actually was within arm's reach of all the controls.
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Speaker 6: Oh yeah, absolutely. We have a diagram up today on
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Speaker 6: our website, where it shows the interior of an E
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Speaker 6: one to seventy five cockpit. It is incredibly crammed.
4:01
Speaker 2: Looking write at it. Great shot, by the way.
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Speaker 6: Thank you, Yes, and I mean yes. The controls that
4:07
Speaker 6: he's alleged to have pulled were probably more accessible to
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Speaker 6: him than the two pilots in front of them.
4:14
Speaker 2: Okay, joining me as I said an all star panel.
4:16
Speaker 3: Now, let me bring in a long time colleague I
4:19
Speaker 3: refer to often as a friend. Mary Skiavo, former Inspector
4:24
Speaker 3: General of the United States Department of Transportation.
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Speaker 7: Thank you, Nancy.
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Speaker 2: How hard do you think it was to get that spot?
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Speaker 3: Former Inspector General of the US Department of Transportation, aviation lawyer,
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Speaker 3: scene in aviation analyst and author of Flying Blind, Flying
4:42
Speaker 3: Safe at Maryskiavo dot com.
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Speaker 2: Mary, thank you for joining us.
4:47
Speaker 3: I'm not sure that I understood that any pilot that
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Speaker 3: wants to hitch a ride can get up there with
4:54
Speaker 3: the pilots driving my plane.
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Speaker 2: Is that normal?
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Speaker 7: Well, actually it is normal because it's a to the
5:00
Speaker 7: airline to check the credentials, and they can check the
5:02
Speaker 7: credentials right there. Usually the pilot who is flying, or
5:05
Speaker 7: sometimes the first officer checks credentials. The airlines are able
5:09
Speaker 7: to check to see that they really are pilots, and
5:11
Speaker 7: usually they have a short discussion to feel comfortable with
5:14
Speaker 7: each other. But absolutely, and a pilot from one airline
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Speaker 7: can jump seat on another. And when I was Inspector General,
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Speaker 7: we did a big investigation because not only can pilots
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Speaker 7: do that, but the FAA can too, And we found
5:26
Speaker 7: abuse by the FAA people just joy riding in the
5:30
Speaker 7: jump seat. But yes, it's legal to do that, and
5:33
Speaker 7: there are a lot of loopholes about whether or not
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Speaker 7: you actually perform functions, and so that would that would
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Speaker 7: be a huge issue here because the pilot knowingly had
5:43
Speaker 7: taken mushrooms legal in Oregon, they better reconsider that. But
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Speaker 7: if he did, if you consider that he didn't have
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Speaker 7: any flying duties, then technically now I would say he
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Speaker 7: had violated if a rigged fite using shrewms, but technically
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Speaker 7: he had violated the regulations that says if you're performing
6:04
Speaker 7: a safety function, then you can't have any substances or
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Speaker 7: alcohol or anything.
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Speaker 2: Mariskiavo.
6:10
Speaker 3: You do know you're going one hundred and twenty mph
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Speaker 3: and all of us mere mortals that are not really
6:15
Speaker 3: attached to the aviation industry.
6:17
Speaker 2: You're like zooming by us. Okay, say shrims and you
6:21
Speaker 2: said he had been ingesting mushrooms and you said legal
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Speaker 2: in Oregon. They better rethink that. Agree? Agree?
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Speaker 3: What does it take crashing a plane with eighty plus
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Speaker 3: souls on it before they go, hey.
6:36
Speaker 2: That's a bad idea. But wait a minute, don't you think? Mary?
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Speaker 2: And listen?
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Speaker 3: I go up and I breath test every pilot of
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Speaker 3: every plane I get on, especially when my children are.
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Speaker 2: Getting on it.
6:48
Speaker 3: See if I smell any pot or booze, They've got
6:51
Speaker 3: to know what I'm doing. I get right the face
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Speaker 3: to go and take a big whiff.
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Speaker 2: They try not to look irritated. But that said, you
7:00
Speaker 2: know the thing is, don't.
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Speaker 3: Pilots or whoever's getting on a jump seat as you
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Speaker 3: call it, don't.
7:07
Speaker 2: They have to be screamed in some way.
7:10
Speaker 3: But you're saying it's verified, he's a pilot in good standing.
7:14
Speaker 3: And I gotta tell you my husband has a lot
7:16
Speaker 3: of pilots in his family, and they are as steady
7:21
Speaker 3: as a rock.
7:22
Speaker 2: You can't get a rise out of them. Ever.
7:24
Speaker 3: They don't drink, they don't smoke, they're flat, just like
7:27
Speaker 3: this flat affect. Even at a Christmas party or Thanksgiving party,
7:32
Speaker 3: they are just you know, they're knives. They smile, they
7:36
Speaker 3: say things, but they're not excitable. Exactly who you want
7:41
Speaker 3: to pilot, Yeah, your plane. They're not crazy. They're not
7:45
Speaker 3: the life of the party, telling the jobs, having too
7:47
Speaker 3: much to drink, nothing like that.
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Speaker 2: That's what I want on my plane. I don't want
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Speaker 2: somebody high on mushrooms.
7:53
Speaker 8: That's right.
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Speaker 7: You're exactly right. And there's just so many loopholes in
7:58
Speaker 7: the aviation ring relations. And you only get tested when
8:02
Speaker 7: you go in. I mean, you aren't even tested. You
8:04
Speaker 7: only have your review when you go in for your
8:06
Speaker 7: annual physics gold WHOA.
8:08
Speaker 3: Of course, I have no right to interrupt the former
8:12
Speaker 3: Inspector General of the US Department of Transportation, Marusciado. Let
8:16
Speaker 3: me bring in Captain Ross Sagan, former commercial airline pilot,
8:22
Speaker 3: forty one year's air safety rep over forty years Wow
8:27
Speaker 3: Aviation expert consultant for Sagan Aviation Consultant. You can find
8:32
Speaker 3: him at Sagan Aviation Consulting dot com.
8:36
Speaker 2: I could go on and on and on about how.
8:38
Speaker 3: He never had an accident, he never had a mistake
8:41
Speaker 3: the entire time he was a pilot. But I'll skip
8:44
Speaker 3: all that, Captain Ross Sagan. Do you mean to tell me,
8:47
Speaker 3: Captain Sagan, that a pilot only goes in for a
8:52
Speaker 3: physical once a year. Don't they have spot checks on
8:57
Speaker 3: pilots to sniff you and take your blood urine?
8:59
Speaker 9: I think it's a little stricter than that, Nancy. This
9:04
Speaker 9: pilot and most airline pilots get evaluated medically six every
9:11
Speaker 9: six months for the first class medical, and some companies
9:15
Speaker 9: require a company physical as well.
9:18
Speaker 3: Listen, I've had a company physical when I was doing
9:21
Speaker 3: a syndicated show, Swift Justice. You know what it was.
9:26
Speaker 3: They came in, they put a what do you say?
9:28
Speaker 3: Ekg on me? That lasted sixty seconds and they tested
9:32
Speaker 3: everybody for STDs.
9:33
Speaker 2: Now what I'm not kidding. That was the physical and
9:37
Speaker 2: guess what I passed. But that said, what do you
9:41
Speaker 2: mean by a company physical? What do they put pilots through?
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Speaker 3: I'm going to get back on the mushrooms in the
9:46
Speaker 3: fight in the cockpit with everybody sitting in the back
9:48
Speaker 3: clutching their children. But what is a company physical, Captain
9:53
Speaker 3: Ross Sagan?
9:54
Speaker 9: Well it VERI the company physical varies company by company.
9:58
Speaker 9: When we were doing company physicals in my company was
10:02
Speaker 9: actually a pretty rigorous screening where we you know, a
10:06
Speaker 9: nurse practitioner or doctor would check you for all your vitals,
10:10
Speaker 9: check your hearing, check your eyesight, and of course there
10:14
Speaker 9: would evaluate you for your mental stability, which is always
10:17
Speaker 9: being evaluated even when you're not under at a medical
10:21
Speaker 9: facility in our business. But the FA physical actually has
10:25
Speaker 9: become more and more rigorous over the years. I remember
10:28
Speaker 9: when I was a new pilot it was fairly standard
10:34
Speaker 9: as you described, but before I retired, things had gotten
10:40
Speaker 9: a lot tighter. There were more tasks, things were much
10:44
Speaker 9: more scripted as far as the requirements by the doctor,
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Speaker 9: and I thought it was quite challenging. Fortunately I was
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Speaker 9: able to pass.
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Speaker 3: Fortunately you were able to pass because you're on the
10:54
Speaker 3: Nancy Grace Show right now and you've had If you
10:56
Speaker 3: had not passed, you'd be getting grilled captain.
11:13
Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 3: Guys, what happened? What actually happened in that cockpit? What
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Speaker 3: this captain was high on mushrooms and the Lord only
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Speaker 3: knows what else, But.
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Speaker 2: What did he do? Go ahead, buckle up, no pun
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Speaker 2: intended listen to this.
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Speaker 5: Alaska Airlines pilot Joseph David Emerson, was catching a ride
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Speaker 5: to San Francisco with Horizon Air flight twenty fifty nine
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Speaker 5: from Everett, Washington. The off duty pilot was seated in
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Speaker 5: the cockpit jump seat and engaged the pilot and co
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Speaker 5: pilot in casual conversation when, without warning, Emerson attempted to
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Speaker 5: shut off the engines mid flight. Emerson reportedly tried to
11:52
Speaker 5: grab and pull two red fire handles that would have
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Speaker 5: activated the plane's emergency fire suppression system and cut off
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Speaker 5: fuel to its engines.
12:01
Speaker 3: Okay, hold on, I need to understand exactly what I
12:06
Speaker 3: just heard, and let me warm you.
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Speaker 2: Mattias Gaffney.
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Speaker 3: In law school and when I was practicing law, I
12:14
Speaker 3: would get a big paragraph and a brief. I'd have
12:17
Speaker 3: to cut it up into four or five pieces and
12:21
Speaker 3: listen to each segment until I understood exactly what was
12:27
Speaker 3: being said. And that just happened. That was a lot
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Speaker 3: of information. Mattias Gaffney joining US San Francisco Chronicle.
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Speaker 2: What exactly did this guy do?
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Speaker 3: And he is a pilot flying me and my children,
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Speaker 3: my John, David and Lucy, my husband.
12:45
Speaker 2: What exactly did he do back there on the jump seat.
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Speaker 6: Yeah, so it sounds like the first half of the
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Speaker 6: flight everything was pretty normal. He didn't show any signs
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Speaker 6: of any weird behavior. And then halfway through, all the
13:00
Speaker 6: sudden he throws off his headset and says he's not okay.
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Speaker 6: And that's where everything turns, and he, according to the
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Speaker 6: flight crew what they told authorities, he reaches up and
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Speaker 6: grabs what's essentially like red fire handles that are on
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Speaker 6: the ceiling of the cockpit, and he pulls them down,
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Speaker 6: and that those are used if you have a fire
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Speaker 6: in one of your engines, your right or left engine,
13:23
Speaker 6: you can stop the fuel from going there, which would
13:26
Speaker 6: stop the fire hopefully from continuing to burn. And you
13:31
Speaker 6: also have the option to rotate those handles, which would
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Speaker 6: shoot some fire extinguisher into the engines.
13:38
Speaker 3: Okay, hold on, let me just understand what exactly he pulled.
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Speaker 3: Hold on, Captain Rossagan, I believe everything Mattia S. Gafney
13:46
Speaker 3: just said, But can you explain it to me? What
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Speaker 3: would happen if I go on a cockpit and I
13:51
Speaker 3: yank down those two red handles.
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Speaker 2: What happens in doesn't that cut off all the fuel?
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Speaker 2: To the plane.
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Speaker 9: Well, if you're on the ground, the engine it's not running,
14:00
Speaker 9: it really doesn't do much. But in this case they're
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Speaker 9: thirty one thousand feet. Apparently this gentleman reached up and
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Speaker 9: pulled the red fire handle on one of the engines,
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Speaker 9: which essentially cuts off the fuel, the hydraulics, and the
14:15
Speaker 9: air the pneumatics to the engine in an effort to
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Speaker 9: stop everything from going to the engine and cut off
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Speaker 9: any source of fire or fuel to the engine.
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Speaker 3: If he was successful, if anyone is successful and pulling
14:30
Speaker 3: those two red levers, which I understand are up on
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Speaker 3: the ceiling of the cockpit undeterred, would the plane crash?
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Speaker 9: No, not necessary, not necessarily. What would happen would be
14:43
Speaker 9: that the engines would start to spool down, the fuel
14:45
Speaker 9: would be cut off to the engine, and the engine
14:47
Speaker 9: would basically turn off, just like if you turned off
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Speaker 9: the ignition to your car as you were driving down
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Speaker 9: the road.
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Speaker 3: Right, but except you're up at thirty one thousand feet
14:57
Speaker 3: and the plane cuts off.
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Speaker 9: Well, remember that it basically the engine is spooling down.
15:02
Speaker 9: And the way we get an airplane to come down
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Speaker 9: from the sky when it's time to descend, for landing
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Speaker 9: as we pull the power back tidle, So the airplane
15:11
Speaker 9: is not going to fall out of the sky when
15:14
Speaker 9: one or both, even both engines are cut off.
15:17
Speaker 2: If you're over an airport, that's great, Captain, because you
15:20
Speaker 2: can just land. But what if you're over forest or
15:24
Speaker 2: god forbid water and there's nowhere to land? Then what happens, Well.
15:30
Speaker 9: An airplane basically comes down at about three miles for
15:35
Speaker 9: every thousand feet, so up they're at thirty one thousand feet.
15:40
Speaker 9: Ostensibly they're going to be able to glide about ninety
15:43
Speaker 9: miles with no engine power.
15:45
Speaker 2: Okay, probably a little.
15:46
Speaker 9: Bit less in that case because there's probably more drag
15:49
Speaker 9: with the engine is completely off, But the airplane is
15:53
Speaker 9: not going to fall out of the sky when the
15:54
Speaker 9: engines turn off.
15:55
Speaker 3: What happens at the end of that ninety miles, Well,
15:58
Speaker 3: now it's a bad day.
15:59
Speaker 2: Can you be blunt? Captain?
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Speaker 9: Normally, within that period of time, hopefully a compliment crew
16:06
Speaker 9: would have done everything they can to restore the power
16:08
Speaker 9: to the engine. And this is actually a procedure that
16:11
Speaker 9: we trained.
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Speaker 3: Okay, Captain Ross Sagan, you never had an accident ever
16:17
Speaker 3: in all of your forty plus years but Ed Booth
16:20
Speaker 3: joining me a renowned aviation lawyer partner at Mark's Gray
16:24
Speaker 3: Law firm, Former prosecutor Ed Booth, isn't it true that
16:29
Speaker 3: at the end of those ninety miles, if you're over
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Speaker 3: water or terrain, the plane's going down. The plane is
16:37
Speaker 3: going down.
16:38
Speaker 8: You would do what Captain Sullenberg did in the Hudson
16:41
Speaker 8: River and ditch the airplane and evacuate the passengers. There
16:45
Speaker 8: is a solution to that.
16:47
Speaker 2: Why is no one just telling the truth? What I mean? Listen, people,
16:51
Speaker 2: I'm a JD, not a DDS. I don't know how
16:56
Speaker 2: to pull tooth, but if you give me a set
16:58
Speaker 2: of pliers, I will try. Why is everybody.
17:01
Speaker 3: Avoiding the fact that if you cut off the fuel to.
17:04
Speaker 2: The plane, the plane's going to go down.
17:07
Speaker 3: Yeah, I might have ninety miles before the plane goes down,
17:12
Speaker 3: but the plane's going down period. I mean, yes, no,
17:17
Speaker 3: is that trip? Let me ask Yavo Marri's Javo. After
17:22
Speaker 3: those ninety miles? Can you just tell me the truth?
17:24
Speaker 7: It is if if you shut off the engines, and
17:27
Speaker 7: as the captain said, you can't get them restarted. And
17:30
Speaker 7: when my flight training, that was part of my training
17:32
Speaker 7: and one of the flights we couldn't get them restarted.
17:35
Speaker 7: So he absolutely is. If someone juts off the engines,
17:38
Speaker 7: you're going down. And it's not always a given that
17:41
Speaker 7: you can restart. It's difficult. I've worked air crashes where
17:44
Speaker 7: you couldn't do an in flight restart, not even a
17:48
Speaker 7: you know, not even a diving restart. Then we couldn't restart. So, yes,
17:52
Speaker 7: there you're going down, hopefully at an airport.
17:56
Speaker 3: I almost wish I hadn't asked you, but I had
17:58
Speaker 3: to ask you. Okay, what more do we know about
18:01
Speaker 3: what's going on in that cockpit? Listen to our friends
18:04
Speaker 3: at crimeonline dot com.
18:05
Speaker 5: Before the incident. In the cockpit, Emerson and the flight's
18:08
Speaker 5: pilots were chatting casually, according to court documents. Then, without warning,
18:12
Speaker 5: Emerson threw his headset across the cockpit and said, quote,
18:16
Speaker 5: I am not okay unquote. Then Emerson grabbed and pulled
18:20
Speaker 5: on the two red handles that would have activated the
18:22
Speaker 5: fire suppression system. CBS News reports one of the pilots
18:26
Speaker 5: told investigators that Emerson wasn't able to pull all the
18:29
Speaker 5: way down on the handles because the pilots were wrestling
18:32
Speaker 5: with him. Emerson and the pilots got into a struggle
18:35
Speaker 5: in the cockpit.
18:36
Speaker 3: Hey, you know that's another thing, Captain ros Sagan, I
18:39
Speaker 3: want my pilot to be fit so he can take.
18:44
Speaker 2: On a guy like Emerson.
18:46
Speaker 3: I don't want a pilot that is clearly dissipated, certainly
18:51
Speaker 3: not drinking or on any kind of even in OTC
18:55
Speaker 3: over the counter drug. I want him or her to
18:59
Speaker 3: be able to take on somebody like Emerson.
19:03
Speaker 2: And I'm hearing, oh Emerson was depressed. Emerson, this Emerson
19:06
Speaker 2: that don't care really what he was going through because
19:11
Speaker 2: he could have cost eighty lives.
19:14
Speaker 3: And the reason I earlier said eighty souls is because
19:19
Speaker 3: that's airplane talk. I've heard pilots say it. We've got
19:23
Speaker 3: two hundred souls on board. That's where I got that from.
19:26
Speaker 2: You guys.
19:27
Speaker 3: But Kevin Rowseagan, you need your pilots fit and ready
19:30
Speaker 3: for action.
19:31
Speaker 9: And I absolutely agree, and I demanded it when I
19:34
Speaker 9: was a captain. We are always sizing each other up,
19:38
Speaker 9: and we are always screening each other, even if even
19:42
Speaker 9: if we're sitting at the table in the pre way breathing.
19:47
Speaker 9: And when we get on an airplane, we self certify
19:49
Speaker 9: that was fit to fly in This pilot got on
19:52
Speaker 9: the airplane as an observer member of the crew. He
19:55
Speaker 9: was actually part of the crew when he got in
19:58
Speaker 9: that cockpit, and he self certify that he was fit.
20:02
Speaker 2: Well obviously, Well, well, waite, are you saying the word
20:05
Speaker 2: self certified? Isn't that like grading your own test in
20:08
Speaker 2: high school? Do you think I believe self certify? I
20:12
Speaker 2: don't believe that for one minute. Self certify.
20:15
Speaker 9: Well, it's just like when you get up in the
20:18
Speaker 9: morning and you feel like, well, you're not feeling that well,
20:21
Speaker 9: and who knows, maybe you have COVID, But should you
20:25
Speaker 9: go into work or not. Well, that's what we do.
20:27
Speaker 9: We certainly can't go to a doctor before before every flight,
20:32
Speaker 9: so we have to self certify that we are fit
20:34
Speaker 9: to fly mentally and physically, and that's what we do.
20:37
Speaker 2: You know.
20:37
Speaker 3: Doctor Sherry Schwartz is joining US physics psychologists specializing in
20:41
Speaker 3: capital mitigation. Literally she wrote the book Criminal Behavior and
20:47
Speaker 3: Where Law and Psychology Intersect at panthermitigation dot com. Doctor Sherry,
20:53
Speaker 3: I appreciate the self certification that Captain Ross Sagan is
20:57
Speaker 3: talking about. What I really appreciate is what he told
20:59
Speaker 3: me about how often that they get physicals to make
21:03
Speaker 3: sure they're ready for action. What's interesting to me, and
21:09
Speaker 3: I want you to address how we feel the passengers
21:13
Speaker 3: feel because I look at the plane and I stand
21:17
Speaker 3: there before I let the children on the plane and
21:19
Speaker 3: watch to see if the captain gets down out of
21:23
Speaker 3: the cockpit and goes around the plane and checks the
21:26
Speaker 3: tires and looks up.
21:28
Speaker 2: I guess under the hood, I.
21:30
Speaker 3: Watch them her to see what they're doing, and they
21:34
Speaker 3: do that, and that makes me feel better. What I
21:36
Speaker 3: don't want to hear is about somebody like Emerson high
21:40
Speaker 3: on mushrooms up.
21:41
Speaker 2: In the cockpit.
21:43
Speaker 10: That's true, and Nancy, you're more vigilant than most of us.
21:47
Speaker 10: I get on the plane, I find my seat, I
21:49
Speaker 10: put my carry on bag, and I just trust that
21:52
Speaker 10: the pilot and the crew are professional and sober.
21:56
Speaker 3: In a minute, doctor Schwartz, you don't smell the pilot.
22:00
Speaker 3: I totally smell the pilot if I can get that
22:02
Speaker 3: close to him or her.
22:04
Speaker 2: Go ahead.
22:05
Speaker 10: Well, I think that's that's a great practice. I mean,
22:09
Speaker 10: I always learned something from you, Nancy, and I'm learning
22:11
Speaker 10: a lot today. Of course, this is really important to
22:14
Speaker 10: pay attention and to also when if you see something wrong,
22:18
Speaker 10: they say, if you see something, say something. But I
22:21
Speaker 10: think most people are just trying to find their seat
22:23
Speaker 10: and they want you to board as quickly as possible,
22:26
Speaker 10: because anyone who's flown in the last few years knows
22:29
Speaker 10: that it can be difficult, and so everybody's got to
22:32
Speaker 10: take their seat, and you're just trusting that who's in
22:35
Speaker 10: that cockpit has your best interest at heart. Your safety
22:40
Speaker 10: is a priority, and so when something like this happens,
22:44
Speaker 10: it's earth shattering. I immediately now, I've never looked into
22:48
Speaker 10: FAA regulations on mental health for pilots, and now I've
22:52
Speaker 10: been looking at it and wondering why it isn't a
22:55
Speaker 10: little more stringent than it seems to be. It seems
22:59
Speaker 10: to be self report. Everett could say no, I'm good,
23:02
Speaker 10: no mental health issues, but he reported in the wake
23:06
Speaker 10: of this that he's been depressed for six years.
23:09
Speaker 2: Six years he's been depressed. Guys, what more are we learning?
23:13
Speaker 2: Take a listen to our friend Dave Mack.
23:15
Speaker 5: Joseph Emerson tried to shut down both of the Umbrare
23:18
Speaker 5: one seventy five's engines by pulling its fire extinguisher handles.
23:22
Speaker 5: Those handles located above the pilot's heads looked like a
23:25
Speaker 5: t and when they are pulled, a valve in each
23:28
Speaker 5: wing closes, stopping the flow of fuel to the engines
23:31
Speaker 5: and more. When the flight crew wrestled with Emerson, one
23:34
Speaker 5: of the pilots grabbed his wrists, preventing those valves from
23:37
Speaker 5: being fully engaged, maintaining fuel levels for flight. And a
23:41
Speaker 5: statement from Alaska Airlines quote, the Horizon captain and first
23:45
Speaker 5: officer quickly responded, engine power was not lost, and the
23:48
Speaker 5: crew secured the aircraft. Unquote, the flight was diverted to Portland, Oregon.
23:52
Speaker 5: As the aircraft was landing in Portland, Federal prosecutors say
23:56
Speaker 5: Emerson tried grabbing the handle of an emergency exit to
24:00
Speaker 5: open it while still in flight. Flight attendants were detaining
24:03
Speaker 5: him at the time.
24:04
Speaker 3: Mary's kiova, what happens if you open the emergency exit
24:09
Speaker 3: in flight?
24:09
Speaker 7: Well, you know if now, they used to say you
24:13
Speaker 7: could not do that, except that happened about a year ago.
24:17
Speaker 7: Someone managed to do that, and if you do, you
24:19
Speaker 7: have a rapid decompression. Rapid decompression can cause a loss
24:24
Speaker 7: of the aircraft and it can be impossible to recover
24:27
Speaker 7: from but if you open it in flight, you're gonna
24:29
Speaker 7: have a rapid decompression and there's always a risk of
24:32
Speaker 7: a whole loss, meaning your lease plane.
24:35
Speaker 3: Okay, when you say rapid decompression, that seems to be airbrushing.
24:40
Speaker 2: What really happens.
24:41
Speaker 3: What happens on a plane mid flight thirty one thousand
24:45
Speaker 3: feet in the air when there is quote rapid decompression.
24:48
Speaker 7: Everything that's not belted down, including people, is sucked out
24:53
Speaker 7: of the aircraft. And it has happened before, and that
24:56
Speaker 7: is exactly what happens. People are sucked out of the plane.
24:59
Speaker 7: And I don't mean to make light of it, but
25:01
Speaker 7: people who have seen the movie Snakes on a Plane,
25:05
Speaker 7: and you know when all the snakes are sucked out,
25:09
Speaker 7: that's what happened. Except when it's a person's flight, the
25:12
Speaker 7: people are sucked out or the baggage that isn't tied down,
25:15
Speaker 7: and the flight attendants to the service card that's around
25:18
Speaker 7: the coversion.
25:19
Speaker 3: I was going to impress you with my knowledge of
25:22
Speaker 3: aviation by quoting Snakes on a Plane, but decided.
25:26
Speaker 2: You did not need to hear that.
25:27
Speaker 3: But you did it to me first, Captain Ross Sagan,
25:31
Speaker 3: This guy a captain of course, in his own right,
25:34
Speaker 3: knew exactly what not to do, pull down those red
25:40
Speaker 3: levers that cut off the fuel to the engines, and
25:45
Speaker 3: try to open the emergency exit see on a suicide mission.
25:48
Speaker 9: One to ask to wonder, And I'm not so sure
25:50
Speaker 9: that he was really, you know, all there, because like
25:55
Speaker 9: you said, he was a captain and he was well
25:57
Speaker 9: versed in the in the operation of aircraft, and he
26:00
Speaker 9: should have known that you can't open that door at
26:03
Speaker 9: thirty one thousand feet. Mary is exactly right. It did happen,
26:09
Speaker 9: But I think what the incident she was referring to
26:13
Speaker 9: happened down lower. The pressure on that door is very
26:15
Speaker 9: low as the aircraft getting ready to land, but this
26:18
Speaker 9: aircraft has it out to there's six to eight he
26:22
Speaker 9: pounds per square inch on every inch of that door.
26:25
Speaker 9: There's hundreds, if not thousands of pounds of pressure on
26:28
Speaker 9: that door. He would have to have been superman to
26:31
Speaker 9: open that door at thirty one thousand feet, and he
26:34
Speaker 9: should have known that. So why he did that knowing
26:37
Speaker 9: that it's impossible is beyond me. I think the scariest
26:40
Speaker 9: thing for me about the whole incident is not that
26:44
Speaker 9: he grabbed that he was grabbing the fire handles. But
26:46
Speaker 9: that we had we had a mostly unstable person in
26:50
Speaker 9: the cockpit, and both of us, both of the flying
26:54
Speaker 9: pilots in the front seats, were now occupied in trying
26:58
Speaker 9: to control this person instead of doing with the supposed
27:00
Speaker 9: to be doing, that is flying the airplane, which is
27:03
Speaker 9: a job of course in and of itself, should be
27:06
Speaker 9: it should be paid attention to, and it wasn't for
27:08
Speaker 9: those moments.
27:09
Speaker 3: This is not the first time that a mid air
27:14
Speaker 3: flight is in danger.
27:17
Speaker 2: Take a listen to our cut.
27:19
Speaker 5: Twelve, a German airliner left for Barcelona around ten am
27:22
Speaker 5: local time, heading to Duseeldorf, Germany. The plane reached its
27:26
Speaker 5: cruising altitude of thirty eight thousand feet at ten twenty
27:28
Speaker 5: seven am. After reaching that cruising altitude, the captain, thirty
27:32
Speaker 5: four year old Patrick Sondenheimer, turned the controls over to
27:36
Speaker 5: the copilot, twenty seven year old Andres Lubids, so he
27:39
Speaker 5: could use the restroom. At ten thirty one am, the
27:42
Speaker 5: plane begins a rapid descent. Ten minutes later, at ten
27:45
Speaker 5: forty one am, the plane, with one hundred and forty
27:48
Speaker 5: nine souls on board, crashed into the mountainous terrain in
27:51
Speaker 5: southern France. There were no.
27:53
Speaker 2: Survivors and more and cut thirteen.
27:55
Speaker 5: When a Boeing seven thirty seven Max being operated by
27:58
Speaker 5: Indonesia's Lion Air began and having problems in mid flight,
28:01
Speaker 5: A pilot in the jump seat became a hero as
28:04
Speaker 5: he helped the crew stop the plane's nose from repeatedly
28:08
Speaker 5: pointing down. Disaster was averted and a hero was born. However,
28:13
Speaker 5: on the plane's very next flight, the same thing happened.
28:16
Speaker 5: No hero in the jump seat this time. The plane
28:18
Speaker 5: crashed into the Java Sea thirteen minutes after takeoff on
28:22
Speaker 5: October twenty ninth, twenty eighteen, killing all one hundred and
28:26
Speaker 5: eighty nine people on board. The resulting investigation blamed everyone,
28:29
Speaker 5: from Boeing to the flight crew.
28:31
Speaker 3: Back to the case at hand, what happened in that
28:35
Speaker 3: cockpit and why listen?
28:38
Speaker 5: Passenger Aubrey Gavello tells ABC News that she heard the
28:42
Speaker 5: flight attendant tell a man walking to the back of
28:44
Speaker 5: the plane quote, we are going to be fine. It's okay,
28:47
Speaker 5: We'll get you off the plane.
28:49
Speaker 4: Okay. This give you a heads up. We've got the
28:52
Speaker 4: guy to try to shut into down out of the cockpit,
28:56
Speaker 4: and he doesn't sound like he's causing an issue of
28:59
Speaker 4: a back right now. I think he used the dude.
29:02
Speaker 4: Other than that, Uh, you know, we one long person.
29:04
Speaker 4: As soon as we get on the ground and part
29:06
Speaker 4: the threat is now in the back of the airplane.
29:09
Speaker 4: Uh so we're we're produced on the threat level. We're
29:14
Speaker 4: going to check in with the flight attendant to make
29:15
Speaker 4: sure everything is running smoothly. But it seems like he's
29:17
Speaker 4: settled down as soon as he's Uh, after for one
29:21
Speaker 4: moment of going a little bit overboard, we put in
29:24
Speaker 4: a back, so escalated to a four Christ's but he's
29:29
Speaker 4: a hard But now he's a handcuffed and he's an
29:32
Speaker 4: alf back jumped when law enforcement arrives.
29:36
Speaker 9: And right now he's paying.
29:38
Speaker 1: Calm time stories with Nancy Grace.
29:57
Speaker 3: But is Jaffney joining us and to get a report
30:00
Speaker 3: with San Francisco Chronicle? Did you hear that pilot? He
30:05
Speaker 3: was just as cool as a cucumber. He could have
30:08
Speaker 3: been reading the stock report, you know, the stocks and
30:14
Speaker 3: bonds just even killed and steady.
30:17
Speaker 2: And that's what I want to hear. Explain to me
30:20
Speaker 2: what he was telling the control tower. What happened once
30:25
Speaker 2: the pilots subdued this guy another pilot.
30:28
Speaker 6: Yeah, he was basically informing them that they had an
30:30
Speaker 6: inflight emergency, that they had a guy who was in
30:34
Speaker 6: the jump seat try to turn off the engines. And
30:38
Speaker 6: he the pilot, is letting the air traffic controllers know
30:44
Speaker 6: the situation and that now that off duty pilot is
30:48
Speaker 6: in the back of the plane and they appears to
30:50
Speaker 6: be calming down in his handcuffed so and then he
30:53
Speaker 6: also mentions to them to have law enforcement ready to
30:56
Speaker 6: pick up at the gate, as this is obviously something
30:59
Speaker 6: they're going to report a crime.
31:00
Speaker 3: And somehow they've got him handcuffed and all the way
31:04
Speaker 3: to the back of the plane.
31:05
Speaker 4: Listen, doesn't sound like he's causing an issue of the
31:08
Speaker 4: back right now. I think you used to do that's
31:12
Speaker 4: you know, we one long person seems to get on
31:14
Speaker 4: the ground and park. The thread is now in the
31:17
Speaker 4: back of the airplane, so we're reduced on the threat level.
31:22
Speaker 5: Passengers watched as a man in handcuffs was escorted to
31:25
Speaker 5: the back of the plane. There was no other explanation
31:27
Speaker 5: except the flight attendant's announcement about a medical emergency. The
31:30
Speaker 5: plane was diverted to Portland, Oregon, where police stood by
31:33
Speaker 5: to take the handcuffed man off the plane. Passenger Alex
31:37
Speaker 5: Wood tells ABC News the man was wearing a lanyard,
31:40
Speaker 5: a sweater and looked like an airline employee.
31:43
Speaker 3: Ten officers meet the plane as thank God in Heaven,
31:49
Speaker 3: it pulls into the gate, mears Gialbo. I got to
31:52
Speaker 3: tell you, just listening to that pilot and hearing Captain Sagan,
31:58
Speaker 3: it actually makes my chick. It's hurt to think of
32:02
Speaker 3: the near fatality that occurred. Because Mary, you and I
32:06
Speaker 3: have talked about this. I was there on nine to
32:09
Speaker 3: eleven in New York and for the longest time, no
32:13
Speaker 3: planes could fly over at Manhattan. I remember the first
32:18
Speaker 3: night I had snuck into the workout room in my
32:22
Speaker 3: apartment building, which was at the top of the building,
32:25
Speaker 3: and all the lights were off and there I was
32:27
Speaker 3: running the treadmill. It's like nine ten o'clock at night,
32:31
Speaker 3: and I saw a plane go over Manhattan and I
32:36
Speaker 3: jumped off the treadmill and jumped down on the floor
32:40
Speaker 3: and tried to call my now husband. That was just
32:42
Speaker 3: my immediate impulse. And then I'm like, whoa, whoa, why
32:45
Speaker 3: is there a plane? Everything's okay, and I got up
32:48
Speaker 3: and watched the plane fly over. I mean, this is
32:51
Speaker 3: extremely traumatic.
32:53
Speaker 7: It's very traumatic, and we're in a new age of aviation.
32:57
Speaker 7: So many improvements have made.
32:59
Speaker 10: It very, very safe.
33:00
Speaker 7: The statistics have been going in the right direction.
33:03
Speaker 10: For aviation safety.
33:05
Speaker 7: But on aviation security now era pilot intentional pilot actions
33:12
Speaker 7: or pilot suicide how you count the accidents is the
33:18
Speaker 7: leading cause of death or the second leading cause of
33:21
Speaker 7: death on commercial air flights, and the faas nitor tremendous
33:26
Speaker 7: criticism for getting a better handle on how do we
33:29
Speaker 7: evaluate pilot mental fitness to fly? And as recently as
33:34
Speaker 7: this summer, my old office did a study and told
33:36
Speaker 7: the FAA, get a better handle on this, come up
33:39
Speaker 7: with some better tests, come up with something better, and
33:42
Speaker 7: the FAA said, of course, well, we'll work on it.
33:45
Speaker 7: But it is an issue. And you can't blame pilots
33:49
Speaker 7: for not wanting to discuss their mental health because if
33:52
Speaker 7: they come forward, they'll be grounded. But we need a
33:55
Speaker 7: better way to handle the situation and to improve our
33:58
Speaker 7: security since we are improving all the safety features on
34:03
Speaker 7: the aircraft.
34:04
Speaker 3: To ed Booth, a high profile aviation lawyer, I want
34:08
Speaker 3: you to hear this.
34:10
Speaker 2: Take a listen to crime online dot Com.
34:13
Speaker 5: Joseph Emerson hadn't slept in forty hours and started suffering
34:17
Speaker 5: from depression about six months ago. ABC News reports he
34:21
Speaker 5: told the flight attendants to restrain him because he was
34:24
Speaker 5: having a nervous breakdown. Emerson also discussed his use of
34:28
Speaker 5: psychedelic mushrooms and reportedly thought he was dreaming and just
34:32
Speaker 5: wanted to wake up. Forty four year old Joseph David
34:35
Speaker 5: Emerson lives in Pleasant Hill, California. The married father of
34:38
Speaker 5: two is well liked by his neighbors, who describe him
34:41
Speaker 5: as positive, very friendly, and upbeat. Emerson is an FAA
34:45
Speaker 5: licensed pilot. He joined Alaska Airlines as a Horizon first
34:49
Speaker 5: officer in two thousand and one. Eleven years later, he
34:52
Speaker 5: left the airline to fly for Virgin America. Emerson returned
34:56
Speaker 5: to Alaska in twenty sixteen when the carrier acquired Virgin Amrita,
35:00
Speaker 5: and he became a captain with the last airlines in
35:03
Speaker 5: twenty nineteen.
35:04
Speaker 3: Two Ed Booth, high profile aviation lawyer and so much more.
35:08
Speaker 3: In Booth, I don't care if he's depressed. I don't
35:12
Speaker 3: want him in the cockpit.
35:13
Speaker 8: I think everyone would agree with that. Part of my
35:16
Speaker 8: practice is representing pilots whose medical credentials are called into
35:22
Speaker 8: question by the FAA, and there are so many disincentives
35:28
Speaker 8: for pilots to disclose problems because of what happens when
35:33
Speaker 8: they do. I think it's important to understand that when
35:37
Speaker 8: you go for a medical exam, there are three questions
35:41
Speaker 8: that allow the FAA to diagnose mental disorders. They ask
35:45
Speaker 8: the pilot applicant, do you suffer from mental disorders of
35:50
Speaker 8: any sort, such as depression or anxiety? They ask are
35:56
Speaker 8: you currently using any medications? And they're looking for psychotropic drugs,
36:02
Speaker 8: And then they ask you about visits to health professionals
36:06
Speaker 8: within the past three years. And if you put a
36:09
Speaker 8: psychiatrist or psychologists down there, they are going to make
36:13
Speaker 8: some inquiries. But these inquiries are so harsh, even with
36:17
Speaker 8: pilots with minor anxiety problems that no one reports them.
36:22
Speaker 8: And we've heard this pilot had been suffering from depression
36:27
Speaker 8: for six years. He would have been examined six times.
36:32
Speaker 8: At least he lied, I suppose six times when asked
36:37
Speaker 8: if he suffered from depression.
36:38
Speaker 3: We're learning it maybe six months. Jackie isn't it six months?
36:42
Speaker 2: Six months?
36:43
Speaker 3: Would that have encompassed one of his physical exams? And
36:48
Speaker 3: when they have a physical exam and they also have
36:50
Speaker 3: a mental exam.
36:51
Speaker 8: A nancy, they are asked if they have mental disorders.
36:55
Speaker 8: There's no mental exam. I've been through dozens of these
37:00
Speaker 8: physicals myself, and it's a self reporting system.
37:04
Speaker 3: I'm trying to figure out how long it takes your
37:07
Speaker 3: body to.
37:10
Speaker 2: Metabolize.
37:12
Speaker 3: As they're called magic mushrooms, what effect do they have
37:16
Speaker 3: on you? You can take a higher dosage a lower dosage,
37:20
Speaker 3: but they act as a psychotropic drug to my understanding, Now,
37:25
Speaker 3: what did he mean, doctor Sherry Schwartz by I'm having
37:28
Speaker 3: a nervous breakdown.
37:29
Speaker 10: Well, so that's an interesting one, kind of like insanity
37:32
Speaker 10: is not in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, neither is
37:36
Speaker 10: mental breakdown, but it is something that we use to
37:39
Speaker 10: describe a certain mental state. And so what I'm what
37:44
Speaker 10: I can surmise that he means is that he's just
37:46
Speaker 10: not okay. He's having some sort of break with reality.
37:50
Speaker 10: It could be a brief psychotic episode. It could be
37:53
Speaker 10: due to the magic mushrooms or something else. It could
37:56
Speaker 10: be due to experiencing the tragedy of the death of
37:59
Speaker 10: his loved one. Underlying mental illness like the depression that
38:04
Speaker 10: he described, lack of a strong support system. There's so
38:09
Speaker 10: many things that can lead into what we describe as
38:13
Speaker 10: having a mental breakdown.
38:14
Speaker 3: I've never used psychotropic mushrooms, but apparently the effects last
38:22
Speaker 3: for about three to six hours in the residual state
38:27
Speaker 3: in your system at least twenty four hours after. But
38:32
Speaker 3: it's just in my mind, like drinking and driving. Mushrooms.
38:36
Speaker 3: To my understanding, the right ones that will have like
38:39
Speaker 3: an LSD effect on you if you take them, and
38:44
Speaker 3: to me, it's just like driving wild drunk, except now
38:48
Speaker 3: you've got eighty plus souls in your hands.
38:50
Speaker 2: Take a listener. Cut eight.
38:51
Speaker 5: When Joseph David Emerson tried to shut down the engines
38:54
Speaker 5: on the Alaska Airlines plane, there were eighty passengers and
38:57
Speaker 5: four crew members on the flight. Now Emerson is charged
39:01
Speaker 5: with eighty three counts of attempted murder, and he's also
39:04
Speaker 5: facing eighty three counts of reckless endangerment, a misdemeanor, and
39:08
Speaker 5: one felon account of endangering in aircraft. According to the
39:11
Speaker 5: Moltnomah County Sheriff's Office, Meanwhile, the United States Attorney's Office
39:15
Speaker 5: District of Oregon announced that Emerson has been charged in
39:18
Speaker 5: federal court with one count of interfering with flight crew
39:20
Speaker 5: members and attendant.
39:22
Speaker 2: As he should be.
39:23
Speaker 3: Tim Athias Gaffey joining us from the San Francisco Chronicle,
39:26
Speaker 3: what happens next?
39:28
Speaker 2: Has he already bonded out? Is he at home boiling
39:30
Speaker 2: out some more mushrooms?
39:31
Speaker 10: Yeah?
39:32
Speaker 6: He appeared for his arrangement yesterday in state court there
39:37
Speaker 6: in Oregon. It was a pretty quick court appearance. Basically,
39:43
Speaker 6: the judge said that he will have a bail hearing
39:47
Speaker 6: within five days where he can ask to be released
39:50
Speaker 6: out of custody or a bail set. But for now
39:53
Speaker 6: he's in custody and he will have future court hearings
39:59
Speaker 6: coming up to determine if he will remand that I
40:02
Speaker 6: hate it for him and his family.
40:04
Speaker 3: But what I hate more is the near fatality of
40:07
Speaker 3: over eighty people trapped at thirty one thousand feet.
40:11
Speaker 2: We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye friend,