Latest / Coffee People Podcast / Etelle Higonnet, Founder of Coffee Watch

Transcript

Etelle Higonnet, Founder of Coffee Watch · Coffee People Podcast

0:00
If you wouldn't mind, before we get started pronouncing your
0:03
name for me. Sure, it's a weird name.
0:05
It's an Iguene. It's Iguene.
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We're in France, we have a silent H like hotel becomes.
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Hotel. And at the end of words, T also
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becomes silent. And so I got this silent and
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it's so crazy. So it's just Iguene, but yeah.
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And my first name is a little bit like Estelle, minus the S,
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yeah. So I took French when I was
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younger and all I kept was. Oh hello, how are you today?
0:46
Thank you for tuning into the Coffee People podcast.
0:49
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1:55
Hey, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Coffee People
1:58
podcast. Thank you for being here today.
2:00
I'm your host, Ryan Walt. You can follow or subscribe to
2:03
this show wherever you're listening, but you'll only find
2:06
the bonus context links and recaps to this episode on
2:09
coffeepeoplepodcast.com. That's coffee,
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peoplepodcast.com. Our guest today is ET al.
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Igoni, the founder of Coffee Watch, an industry watchdog
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organization dedicated to quote the proposition that we should
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make the world a better place with each cup of coffee.
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End Quote. To paraphrase the Coffee Watch
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mission, they are dedicated advocates for human rights,
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social justice, and especially the climate through the lens of
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the coffee industry. So make sure you've got a cup of
2:43
coffee to enjoy and head to coffeewatch.org to learn more as
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you listen to this episode featuring Etel Igonet, the
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founder of Coffee Watch. I wanted to, I mean, before we
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get too far into this show. And welcome to Coffee People,
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the podcast. Thank you so much for having me
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on your podcast. I'm just thrilled.
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Yeah. I'm thrilled.
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I'm so intimidated, honestly, by by you.
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I'm afraid that I'm going to say something dumb and you're going
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to be like a. Hush, I'm the dumbest.
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I was looking at this list. I found you've worked with the
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National Wildlife Association, Greenpeace, Climate Defiance,
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Friends of the Earth, and Coffee Watch, among others.
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I'm wondering I've worked for one environmental nonprofit.
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Is there one that you haven't worked for?
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You're too kind. No, look, I, I had such a great,
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lovely, wonderful experience at Greenpeace, which is my first
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real enviro experience. And I had previously done human
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rights work. So I just kind of my whole
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childhood, in adolescence, I wanted to do human rights work.
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And then like even during uni and then between uni and law
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school and after law school, I did all this stuff like Human
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Rights Watch and Amnesty International.
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But then after 12 1/2 years, I thought, wow, I don't think I
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can investigate another crime against humanity or rape for
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sure. I just, it was so sad, you know,
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it was kind of grim and I started.
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To, like, my hair fell out and I lost all this weight and I
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couldn't sleep. And so I thought, OK, what can I
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do that still, like, makes the world a better place, but maybe
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it won't cause me to have a purpose.
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Right. On environmental work.
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Yeah. Fighting climate change.
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So that's how I ended up and. I loved it and then that brought
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me to Mighty Earth where I was helped sort of set it up.
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It's a little bit I guess you could say almost like a spinoff
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of Greenpeace. A lot of us that started it were
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ex Greenpeace and it's it sort of filled some of the gaps that
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like Greenpeace wasn't working on like cocoa and rubber and
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high risk polymer photographies. And that even to this day was
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kind of my favorite job, even better than Greenpeace, if
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that's possible. And yeah, National Wildlife
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Federation, I also really loved. I just did that for one year,
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'cause then I had. A baby and he's the best thing
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in my whole life and I wanted. To take time off, but the other
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groups I've mostly just done like consultancies for or been
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on the board of or helped, you know, like Friends of the Earth
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and and yeah, climate to find. Some on the board.
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So I it's, those are like smaller things in my life than
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than the green peas and my dear, I guess you could say.
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I have so many questions about all of that, but the you just
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said and and I hope we can talk about it.
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If not, that's OK. But you have a baby.
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I do. Son.
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I have a son. Yes, you have a son and as you
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mentioned, it can be overwhelming and depressing.
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And you mentioned the climate and then the hell, the human
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rights. How do you, and this is
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something I was going to ask later, but I'm just going to ask
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now, how do you maintain hope for his future?
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Oh well. When you're facing this every
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day, that's a deep question to jump into first and we'll go
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backwards, but you're not thinking necess.
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I mean, I'm I'm thinking about my future and my dog's future.
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Selfishly, in all odds I will live him, which is the worst
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thing I've ever thought of. But you'll find one in a better
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place. I'm sure that I feel like dogs
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are are equal to humans and they're.
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Way, way, way. Yeah, they're better.
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They're. Better they will meet us in a
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better. Place but you have you have this
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little little person you know in some size and you have they have
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a future. How do you look at the world and
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say I want, I think things can be better for him.
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Oh, well, you know, I think that having a child and loving him so
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passionately and completely it, you know, not that I didn't
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love, obviously my husband's like maybe the best husband in
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the whole. World.
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She's like so hard. Kids heart and you.
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Great dancer and Brazilian barbecues and all that.
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And I love my family and my friends, but yeah, having a
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baby, it's just like, wow, my heart expanded an entire size
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and like, rocketed. Up into the stratosphere, I was
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so filled with love. And I guess what it did is that
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it also cemented my resolve to fight with everything I've got
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to make the world a better place for my son.
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Like I just cannot imagine now not working on climate change
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because I want to be able to look back, you know, when I'm
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old and grey, actually, I'm already old.
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I'm such a dinosaur. But when I'm older, I want to be
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able to look back and say to my son that, you know, I really did
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my best to give him habitable planet.
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That was more fair and that there wasn't much more I could
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have really done. And that it was, you know, it's
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part of loving him, I think. Well, that takes me to Coffee
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Watch, which is why I, you know, I reached out.
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You just celebrated one year of this organization that you, that
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you founded. What is it, you know, for people
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listening? I'm in.
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I'm invested in the coffee community.
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I wasn't quite sure, you know, after one you want one year's
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barely anytime in the in the reality of a it's an amazing
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accomplishment. But like as far as like
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awareness goes, it's like this growing phase.
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So what is it for anyone in the coffee industry or anyone that's
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out and stumbles across it? If you can imagine Greenpeace
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hooking up with Amnesty International and having a baby,
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and that baby just wants to work on coffee, that's Coffee, Watch.
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It's basically like a human. Rights and environmental
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watchdog for the coffee industry.
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And I guess you know, there there are so many groups that do
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work on sustainability and coffee, but they tend to do it
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with companies, right? They tend to do it as
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consultants and they help companies roll out pilots for
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agroforestry or women's empowerment or whatever.
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But there there is, hasn't yet been until Coffee Watch came on
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the scene, really a watchdog group that was focused on, like,
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documenting abuses and fighting to combat those abuses, even
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though the abuses in the coffee industry are legion.
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You know, it's the number six driver of deforestation in the
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world. Like, that's crazy.
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Number six, that's not very good.
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You know, it's not like carrots. Oh my God, this is pretty
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serious. Like maybe that's something we
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should get on top of. And then also it's got, you
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know, millions of kids and thousands of slaves, and almost
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everyone who works in coffee is in poverty.
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And that's just not right, is it?
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You know, because most people. Who love coffee, including me.
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I love coffee. I need it.
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I can't live without it. Most people are good people.
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They're fundamentally good and they wouldn't want to drink
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slavery and child labor and deforestation and like dead
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Jaguars, if they knew they would be so sad, they would probably
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say no. What has been, well, I guess
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first, did people know who you were in the coffee industry?
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And I'm asking, right, They didn't know who you were, so no.
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I don't think so. In those first brainstorming
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sessions, or you're you're planning this and you're
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thinking about and reaching out, I'm assuming, or putting the
10:01
name out there and saying we're going to do this.
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What was the response? Well, so, you know, every time
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we've done a report, like an investigation and then a report
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on abuses and coffee, like human trafficking or child labor or,
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you know, modern slavery or other really terrible things,
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we've definitely tried to send the reports to companies that,
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you know, we sort of go out there like in an agnostic way
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just to find the problems and then figure out, well, who does
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it seem to belong to? Who's supply chain does it seem
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to belong to? And then so it's not like we're
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looking for specific supply chains.
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Like I'm gonna get you. It's really not bad at all.
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But so whenever we find supply chain information, which
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sometimes you can't, honestly, sometimes it's not available
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because coffee is extremely opaque and not traceable, not
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transparent and not a clean like well ordered industry in that
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sense. But whenever we do find the
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information, we do try to send it to the companies.
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Usually they, they like maybe don't really seem to care that
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much. I mean, sometimes they sort of
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answer, sometimes, yeah, we get these.
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They tend to be a little bit boilerplate, the answers, You
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know, we've also, I should say, written to the certification
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schemes. Again, this is agnostic.
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It's not like we're going out to be like, oh, I hit the
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certification scheme, I'm going to find you.
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Good friend handed. No, we like have just found
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terrible stuff that is certified and so we did really try to
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reach out to the certification schemes that's.
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I guess like some of them have been more responsive and others
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like not fair trade, like much more responsive.
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You know, Foresee kind of started and then sort of like
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shut down and cafe practices like, yeah, basically just like
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wouldn't talk to us really. At first I thought they would.
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And then they just. Like, do you think that is
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because, one, it's hard to hear that you work in this area that
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is causes pain in any way or is harmful to our potential future?
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Do you think it it's that or AI mean?
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I'm assuming it's a combination. But also at this point in time,
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bandwidth, you're coming to them and saying this thing that
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you've worked on and created needs to change.
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Yeah. That's hard to.
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Do, but it's it's hard to do. So how do you approach the those
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conversations with, with the goal or the idea of motivating
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that change and keeping your expectations?
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You know, if it's me, I don't, I can't separate.
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So I go in and go, they're going to definitely do this 100%.
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It's going to be perfect. And then I'm like, Oh no, how do
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I fix it? How do you do that?
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Or how do you know? Where do you see?
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Can you put yourself on the other side?
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Oh, totally. Look, I think most coffee
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companies are filled with really good people, like normal people
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who, you know, wake up in the morning and, like, pet their dog
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and feed their kids and bring them to school.
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I just, you know, normal, nice humans, right?
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They're like, not like Doctor Evil, hey.
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Hey, hey, let me go and slave some small children in a coffee
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country that's not, I think, like how to start their day.
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I think most coffee industry folks are, are nice, but you
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know, why is it that they haven't responded so much?
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Well, there's I think a couple of reasons that you alluded to.
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First, you're right, it's scary like getting a message from
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someone you'd like haven't heard of saying that you've got human
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trafficking or modern slavery or child labor or like other crazy
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labor abuses in your coffee supply chain.
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That's probably like the worst message you're going to get that
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day, maybe that week, maybe people feel really sad and
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upset. So yeah, I think that's a big
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reason. There's like some cognitive
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dissonance to to accept and understand how bad the situation
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is. It's it's hard like and I I
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totally understand. I'm thinking about it from the
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coffee I'm drinking right now. I didn't go to the store and
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think I want coffee that is bad for something I want.
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I want coffee that I enjoy drinking and is also good.
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I mean it's the good place show problem right?
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Like you do bad things without even realizing it or you're part
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of it. Is there a?
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Lot of coffee industry people literally don't know how bad
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things are like, because their world is, is, is busy.
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They're thinking about price and timing and locations and
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shipping and artificial intelligence and Trump tariffs.
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And there may be some terrible super storms.
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And so there's shortages or there's droughts and then
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there's even more shortages. And then, you know, people like
14:40
people are busy. You know, they have lives, they
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have real lives and I think this is a lot that we've brought to
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the industry in one year. You know, we, we always work
14:50
with other NGOs. Like especially I love to work
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with local NGOs because I think that they know better than I
14:56
could ever know. So like in Mexico, these two
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amazing groups, Pro desk and Empower, they did this like
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fantastic report on abuses in Mexican coffee and this we did
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one in China with China Labor Watch and in Colombia with this
15:12
great local organization versus Porter Trabajo and and Roberta
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Brazil. And then in you know, it's a lot
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this with Brazil, China, Colombia, Mexico just in one
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year. And now we have more
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investigations coming that we've we've just done.
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If I was a coffee industry person, I'd be frankly like
15:29
overwhelmed and exhausted and I would maybe shut down too.
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Maybe it's too much. Let's turn this back a little
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bit and I want to ask you just about, you said you love coffee.
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Do you remember, you know, a first experience with coffee
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that led you down to this, down this rabbit hole eventually?
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That's hard to say, but if I tell you like the first thing
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that I remember about coffee, my father's French, but his mom was
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Hungarian French, mostly Hungarian.
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So she sort of grew up in Budapest and but then, you know,
16:03
came to France with my grandfather.
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But she would make these thick Hungarian coffees with her like
16:08
Hungarian girlfriends. And it was, you know, almost
16:10
thick enough for the splinters to.
16:12
Offer and they'd have these very sweet Hungarian desserts and
16:15
they'd play canasta and two of them would smoke not my
16:19
grandmother, but her friends. And they'd just be like these
16:21
bad ass old ladies smoking and like cards and drinking coffee
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and eating these delectable little like treats.
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And I just thought they were so cool.
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I thought I also just thought my grandmother was the cat's meow.
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So that's like my first real memory of of.
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Coffee being a thing, coffee being, being something that
16:40
brought people together, that created like community, you
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know, that's my first memory of coffee, I guess.
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Fast forwarding into your life is you're working with Ng OS and
16:52
and nonprofits. When did the coffee industry in
16:55
particular kind of come to your attention as a place that you
16:57
might want to focus on? Oh yeah.
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So when I went to Greenpeace, I ended up as their sort of like
17:05
Southeast Asia research director and there's a lot of stuff going
17:08
on in Southeast. Asia, that's not good for a
17:10
Mother Earth. So I was sort of pulled in
17:12
different. Directions, you know, there's a
17:14
lot of overfishing and terrible, awful like, you know, fishing
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with slaves and bottom trawling and dynamite and cyanide.
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And then there's also a lot of oil and gas and coal exploration
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and, and coal mines and, and coal power plants.
17:30
There's, there's just a lot that came across my desk.
17:33
But the thing that really grabbed my heart was the
17:35
deforestation work. And we, we mostly focus at
17:40
Greenpeace on deforestation in palm oil and in pulp and paper
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in Southeast Asia. Those are the two Titans, 2
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Titans of deforestation in that region, just like cattle and soy
17:50
are the big Titanic drivers in in this hemisphere.
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And but while I was there, I, I kept seeing all these abuses in
18:00
rubber and coffee and cocoa. Just, I would see it when I'd go
18:05
to the field, like literally would see child labor and
18:09
deforestation. And I, I kept wanting us to work
18:12
on these commodities. And even though we knew that
18:19
coffee, cocoa and rubber are numbers 5-6 and seven of global
18:23
deforestation, at Greenpeace, we just never really had the
18:27
bandwidth to take. Greenpeace is so overwhelmed and
18:30
underfunded. And ever since that moment, I
18:35
just like, put this resolve into my heart that I would try to do
18:39
whatever I can to turn around those industries.
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They get very short shrift, you know, basically nobody was like
18:45
really working on. So when I went to Mighty Earth,
18:47
we we ran these amazing campaigns in cocoa and rubber.
18:50
It was really, I think fantastic and yay made a lot of change.
18:54
But we still even at mighty never had the bandwidth to do
18:57
coffee. So I just like thought, oh.
19:00
Let's do that somehow, in some way.
19:03
I well, you said one thing that Greenpeace is a organization
19:09
that's been around a long time and people know that name.
19:11
And to hear that they're underfunded is, you know, I
19:14
mean, not surprising, but also I think when people think of
19:18
nonprofits, this is going to be a 2 parter.
19:24
I apologize. I'm notorious for asking wide
19:26
questions. But the first is there's a lot
19:30
of nonprofits out there that are competing for money.
19:34
I mean, and, and, but businesses too, I mean, everyone is
19:37
competing a little bit for, for something so they can do the
19:40
thing that's they're passionate about and, you know, or they
19:43
care about or feeds their family to use a, an overused cliche.
19:49
So how did you go into this? How do you fund this?
19:52
I mean, who's supporting it? Well, I should say a preface to
19:56
that. You probably didn't know this,
19:59
but it shocked the pants off me when I found out.
20:03
Less than like 2% of global philanthropy goes to anything
20:07
related to climate or environment.
20:10
Less than 2%. It's like the, and if you very
20:13
broadly define climate and environment, like it goes up to
20:15
2 1/2%, but that's really kind of cheaty and it's basically 2%.
20:20
But OK, let's say 2 1/2% to, you know, that's still spectacularly
20:25
crazy given that we're in a mass extinction and a climate chaos
20:27
situation. And of that money that goes into
20:34
philanthropy for climate and environmental stuff, less than
20:37
8% goes into agriculture. But that's nuts because
20:43
agriculture is 1/3 of climate change and it is 80% of the mass
20:47
extinction crisis we're in. And we are in a mass extinction
20:50
crisis like species are disappearing more rapidly than
20:53
basically like when a comet hits the Earth.
20:56
And so all this money that goes to so many different NGOs that
21:00
do so many different things, which I think are noble and good
21:03
and like, I'm so happy they're doing that.
21:05
It just, it basically means that climate and environment stuff is
21:09
the orphan of global philanthropy.
21:12
And sure, you could say they're like renewable energy companies
21:16
that make a lot of money now and EV companies that make a lot of
21:19
money now. And that's good for the planet.
21:21
And it's a business. It's not a philanthropy, right?
21:23
And see, but that's pretty recent that they've started to
21:25
make money with like green tech and clean tech, right?
21:27
That's not very recent. But anyways, one of the reasons
21:31
I really wanted to work on coffee is because we're in this
21:35
mass extinction. We're in this climate chaos
21:37
situation. Agriculture is driving so much
21:40
of that and it gets so little attention and funding.
21:44
And coffee of the big seven drivers of deforestation has
21:47
gotten like no attention for deforestation.
21:49
A little bit more for the human rights problems, slavery, child
21:52
labor, but basically not much. So This is why I wanted to do
21:56
Coffee Watch is because of this funding that's like so
21:58
underfunded. And so that's why there's no
21:59
work on it. And that's why it doesn't get
22:01
better. But then how did we fund Coffee
22:03
Watch? I mean, I put a lot of my own
22:04
savings into it. I just also did not get paid at
22:07
all for any of my work. And a lot of wonderful people
22:11
from all different corners of my life, friends from Greenpeace
22:15
days and Amnesty days and Human Rights Watch days and Mighty
22:17
Earth days, and all these wonderful people have all leaned
22:21
in to help like pro bono and lo Bono.
22:23
I'm so grateful. I'm such a grateful recipient of
22:26
their largest We could never. Do any of this stuff without
22:29
them? And then we did get like some
22:31
money from small dollar donors that actually kind of worked.
22:35
But almost no philanthropies give any money because this is
22:39
the worst year for philanthropic giving after Musk cut USAID and
22:45
then also Trump cut the UN budget by a third because that's
22:49
like what the US used to give. Well, why do you?
22:52
We don't need that. And so and.
22:55
Also, Europe had to reroute a lot of its environmental and
22:58
human rights doning giving for Ukraine when the US kind of
23:04
pulled out of that. So there was this like, trifecta
23:06
of USAID collapsing, the UN budgets, like hemorrhaging and
23:11
kind of collapsing, and then European money drying up.
23:14
And so unsurprisingly, they're not that many rich people who
23:18
stepped in to fill the void. I mean, some did, and that's
23:20
great. And then very grateful to them.
23:22
But yeah, it's the in general, this has been a terrible year
23:25
for environmental and human rights groups, and Coffee Watch
23:28
was no exception. But we're lucky because just
23:30
through love and generosity, we managed to soldier through.
23:36
I think of it, are you familiar with like a, an old camp style
23:40
stool with three legs and just simple platform, You know that
23:44
it always feels like you're about to fall.
23:46
That's what I kind of imagine this situation is.
23:48
You're always about to fall and then when something happens like
23:52
USAID going away. Yeah.
23:54
Boom, you start tipping and then the goal is to stop bit before
23:58
it hits the ground and somehow just get back to status quo.
24:02
And that's so intense and so overwhelming.
24:05
You know, my personal nonprofit experience wasn't great in, in
24:10
that I saw a lot of waste and I was certainly an idealist, but I
24:15
also, I also realized that the people, it wasn't waste because
24:21
they were trying to waste. It was waste because sometimes
24:24
the problem is bigger than you know, how to handle or the
24:27
things that you're doing are only these, they're only
24:29
attacking the problem from 1 angle.
24:31
And it's hard to see that, that bigger picture.
24:36
I I'm wrapping this into, you know.
24:38
You, if you look at how NGO's sometimes are in effect tool or
24:43
a little bit like slow or bureaucratic or whatever and you
24:46
think, well, oh, that's so annoying, we should cut their
24:49
money. But in fact, you know one reason
24:51
often why they can be that way is because they don't have
24:54
enough money to hire a really good COO and a super top notch
24:59
HR person. Because all the best Co OS and
25:02
HR. People are going to go make like
25:03
5 times as much in the private sector.
25:06
And so these Ng OS end up being, you know, a little bit
25:09
dysfunctional, often not because they have too much money and
25:12
they want to waste it, but because maybe sometimes they
25:14
also don't have enough. Sure, and they're run by people
25:18
who are passionate, not people who necessarily, when I have the
25:21
skills for this, they're not. That's not the thing.
25:23
You mentioned you didn't get paid, which was part of my
25:27
question, is there's this idea that nonprofit workers do it
25:34
because they're passionate, but they shouldn't be doing it for
25:36
money. I see an inherent flaw, right?
25:40
I see a flaw in that, in that, to your point, some the best
25:44
people may not go into that field because they have goals as
25:48
well. The funny thing is, once I had a
25:50
baby, I also like realized there's so few things that I
25:53
really need in life. You know, I bike him everywhere.
25:58
We're lucky to live in Denmark and I just like.
26:01
It's literally, it's the cost of a bicycle and a little baby
26:03
basket. And I bike him everywhere and
26:05
he's happy and we like sing songs and.
26:08
You know, we don't need to have a lot of fancy stuff to be
26:10
happy. So I think, yeah, more than ever
26:13
since I had my son, I realized I'd rather do something that
26:17
feels super meaningful than something that makes a lot of
26:21
Benjamins, I guess. Although I'm not AI, don't
26:24
object to Benjamins. If anyone listening to this
26:26
podcast wants to donate like $5 or $100 to Coffee Watch, please
26:30
do. So I was mostly bringing it up
26:32
because I, I think people end up taking advantage of nonprofit
26:36
workers because they know they want to do it no matter what.
26:39
So they're like they, they'll give the money, but only if it
26:42
goes to this thing. And salaries is generally not
26:45
one of those something I try to draw attention to that you
26:49
mentioned that you're in Denmark, a both coffee mad
26:55
country, pro biking country, as you mentioned, which I love.
27:01
Also a place where I, I maybe 10 years ago, I read there was AI
27:08
can't think of his name. But at the time, a relatively
27:10
well known environmental scientist from Colorado in, in
27:14
the US who was in the news because he picked up his family
27:18
and moved to Denmark. And the reason he did is because
27:20
he said, well, my best guess is that if there's a safe place to
27:23
be in the future for my kids, Denmark is that place.
27:27
Are you? Seeing.
27:29
Are you seeing climate migration happening in Denmark?
27:32
Are you seeing an awareness of Denmark?
27:35
Or I mean, maybe that's changed. I'm not up on it on that
27:38
day-to-day where to go. But do you see people looking to
27:42
Denmark as a leader in that area or as a place that may be a
27:45
refuge at some point? So I would say that the climate
27:51
dude you mentioned from Colorado's desire to move to
27:54
Denmark to keep his kids safe is both very charming and also
27:58
probably really naive. Because the best estimates we
28:01
have is that there is going to be 1 billion humans on the move
28:06
because of climate change in the near future.
28:09
That's billion with AB and that includes both ID PS like
28:13
internally displaced people and refugees.
28:16
But what it means is we are only now seeing the absolutely
28:20
tippity, tippity, tip, tip, tip of the iceberg that is coming
28:23
our way. You could say that a lot of
28:26
people who have fled Syria are in a way climate refugees.
28:31
And, you know, a lot of people leaving West Africa to come to
28:35
Europe, although less to, you know, they, they come more to
28:38
Italy and France than they do to Denmark.
28:40
But a lot of those people are also climate refugees in a way.
28:45
But you know, Somalia, like, you know, people talk about how the
28:47
fishing industry got destroyed. It's not that they're like
28:51
climate refugees. They're environmental refugees
28:53
in the sense that what are you going to do?
28:54
You can't fish anymore. All the fish are gone.
28:56
You want to be a pirate? I mean that sounds.
28:58
Terrible. So all your other option is what
29:00
to like emigrate. So I think, you know, right now
29:03
it's true there are migrants coming to Denmark and to Europe
29:06
and to the US to, you know, and what might feel like large
29:11
numbers to us today, large enough certainly to like, help
29:16
omit the rise of the far right and my home country of France,
29:19
you know, the far right endlessly talks about
29:21
immigration in France. But the crazy thing is, unless
29:24
we get a handle on this climate chaos, we're gonna see what we
29:29
have now. But like times 100 it will be so
29:32
crazy worse. I don't really think any place
29:36
will be that safe to you. No, I mean you said something
29:40
that I just that I, I people are going to see me smiling and it's
29:45
not because I'm happy about some of the things we're talking
29:47
about. It's because I'm relating to
29:48
them in my own personal way. But obviously the show's about
29:51
you. And but I think I, I, I say this
29:55
to my wife a lot. It where we talk about this a
29:59
lot. I don't just say it to her like
30:00
randomly as she's like making dinner or something, or I'm
30:02
making dinner. But it, it's that none of these
30:06
arguments that we're having politically or cross borders is
30:11
going to matter much if you can't travel because there's
30:14
going to like, we've already changed how we travel because of
30:16
storms. We're we're campers and we've
30:19
changed how we do that. We consider that when we book
30:22
flights now we've done all those little things that it, you know,
30:26
you're a little bit like a frog in a pot.
30:27
It's slowly getting warmer and you're just adapting and
30:30
adapting and adapting. But there is going to be a
30:32
tipping point where all of these arguments are all these little
30:36
things that we are using to make our life more comfortable or to
30:41
stand on a platform that maybe we believe in or maybe as
30:46
popular at the moment. And, you know, generally
30:48
speaking, they're not going to matter much if there isn't a, a
30:53
future, you know, economics will will.
30:56
I'm AI don't want to be a cynic, but I'm also someone who is
31:03
keeps that in mind and is just a little bit wary of overwhelming
31:09
myself. I think at this point in my
31:10
life, I've gotten to a point where I went so far trying to
31:14
do. I mean, honestly, it's inspiring
31:16
talking to you because I think it's a challenge for anyone to
31:19
to maintain confidence and positivity.
31:22
And obviously you're on the show and and you, I'm assuming
31:25
there's moment quiet moments where you go Oh man.
31:28
But at the same time at. Least once a month.
31:32
You know, at the same time, I want to be an engaged citizen,
31:35
but I think I it's getting harder for me to know the best
31:38
way to do that, the best way to work towards the future.
31:41
And when I read your coffee watch posts on LinkedIn or on
31:47
social media or wherever, I saw one at the end of the year, you
31:50
that, hey, let's stay positive. Here's some things that are
31:53
good. Those are great, but they also
31:57
feel like the smaller end of, you know, what I'm getting every
32:00
day And how do you man, you know, how do we manage that?
32:04
I think that's the question. And you're you are teaching us
32:08
to some extent or we're looking to you, whether it's your job or
32:11
your role or not to say you've chosen coffee watch why you
32:16
know, I think. This is a super deep, deep
32:19
question. This really goes to the heart of
32:21
things, doesn't it, you know? Do we have hope that this is
32:25
going to turn around? Yeah, I think that's it.
32:27
Do I have hope it's going to turn?
32:29
Around. Yeah.
32:30
Well, so here's what I want to say.
32:32
At first, I wish I was with you so I could give you a giant
32:34
squeezy hug. Like a huge hug.
32:37
I'm like hugging you so hard right now.
32:40
And I want to like hug you to give you hope and give you a
32:43
hope hug. And I want to give all your
32:45
listeners. It's a huge, huge squeezy hope
32:47
hug too, wherever you are. Please, like, let me invade your
32:51
personal space in your mind and just hug you so hard because,
32:54
you know, sometimes this thing of climate chaos and mass
32:56
extinction and slavery and you know, deforestation and, and
33:00
child labor and poverty, it feels very overwhelming.
33:02
It's true, it's true. But think about it this way.
33:06
It is not too late. And we can absolutely be our
33:10
best selves. And there are so many solutions
33:14
that are already tested that are real, that are out in the real
33:17
world. And like, here's a good way of
33:20
thinking about it. You know, right now, coffee is
33:21
the number six driver of deforestation in the world.
33:24
Number six. That's bad.
33:25
That means it is both driving climate chaos and mass
33:29
extinction. So sad, bad, not glad, but we
33:33
can stop that and we can stop it super fast.
33:36
Like now. The technology to stop
33:38
deforestation is cheap as shit. Sorry, I probably should not
33:41
swear on your show. Oh, that's fine.
33:42
We say curse words all the time. It's super cheap.
33:46
We have like satellite maps that are amazingly good.
33:50
We've drones, we've smartphones. It is so easy to stop
33:53
deforestation in its tracks today compared to like 20 years
33:56
ago or whatever. So we can stop that
33:58
deforestation on a dime like this year.
34:01
The industry can just stop it and change it.
34:02
That would be really cool. That would be like the coolest
34:04
source Rex, wouldn't it? But we can even go further than
34:07
that because actually coffee was so amazing.
34:11
It's this plant that loves trees, effing loves to be in a
34:15
forest system. It actually is made to grow in
34:19
forest originally. Like that's how coffee was
34:22
coffee Valentine's Day hearts for us.
34:24
Like there's no tomorrow. And we can totally grow all of
34:28
coffee in an agroforestry system, which is shade grown.
34:32
Agroforestry just means shades like a fancy.
34:34
I'm sorry. That's like a stupid fancy way
34:36
to say shade. Shade grown coffee is for real.
34:39
Literally great for the planet and will stop biodiversity lost
34:45
so much. Like you can have 19 times more
34:48
biodiversity, yay. And you can have more than
34:51
double. The carbon.
34:52
Whoop. Whoop.
34:53
Just with coffee. So think about it, there's like
34:55
12.5 million farms in the world. If all those farms became like
35:00
the Mack daddy awesome super mega agroforestry stars that we
35:04
know they can be. If we did that in the next 5
35:07
years. If the industry invested and
35:09
coffee lovers and drinkers invested and governments and
35:12
everybody got off their stupid butts and got serious about it
35:14
and collaborated and made it happen, then.
35:17
Coffee would be saving the mother effing planet with every
35:22
cup, which is so cool. We can totally do that.
35:25
And there's already so much scientific literature, in fact,
35:29
like this amazing scientist who's on my board, Eduardo, so
35:33
many, but he's like a God of agroforestry.
35:35
He's published so much. Everybody cites him.
35:37
He's so much smarter than me. We created this agroforestry
35:40
electronic library of all the scientific publications and how
35:43
do you do it? How do you avoid the pitfalls
35:45
and make it amazing? It tastes better.
35:48
It buffers your coffee from climate chaos.
35:51
It's great for biodiversity, it's great for carbon.
35:53
It's this huge win for farmer food security because you can
35:56
plant trees of like the stuff that farmers want to eat and
35:59
income diversification. So the farmers are no longer
36:02
hostage to the vicissitudes of market shocks.
36:05
Like if you're a coffee farmer, you do just coffee and the price
36:08
is high, amazing. If it goes low, you're fucked.
36:12
If I have like 5 different crops, all five of them have to
36:16
go bust on the world market for me to go bust so I don't have to
36:19
pull my kids out of school. But you might have to pull your
36:21
kids out of school. So actually these biodiverse
36:25
shade grown agroforestry coffee systems are amazing for farmer
36:29
well-being too. So actually like, I think I just
36:32
want to give you and all your listeners so many hugs and hope
36:36
and like, we can, yes, we can. We can make it better with every
36:39
cup. Everyone can make it better,
36:41
whether you're drinking it or you're a bar Vista or a
36:43
restaurant owner or coffee shop owner or like whoever you are,
36:47
you know you run a church, a synagogue, a university, an
36:51
office like buffet. You know all of us can make it
36:55
better, isn't it? That's so cool, right?
36:57
Isn't that? I think it's cool.
36:59
I think it requires a lot of communication, which I worry
37:02
about. So that's, you know, is, is a
37:05
little bit of coffee smarter advice for the people listening.
37:08
You mentioned a lot of wonderful potential things that have to
37:12
happen, but they're obviously roadblocks.
37:15
What, and I know this is going to be very general because it's
37:18
a wide spectrum of people who, whatever they do in their life
37:22
may be different. But what do you say to people
37:24
like me who are just over here going, I want to do something in
37:27
my, my life. I don't work in this field.
37:30
How do people, how do people help work towards that goal of,
37:35
of jumping over those roadblocks that you're, you're seeing and
37:38
pointing out and, and trying to tell people we can do this.
37:42
What is the thing that we have to do as collectively?
37:45
Because I think there's a big difference between there seems
37:49
to be a big disconnect between the work of an organization
37:53
versus the collective of us who are just going to buy our bag of
37:55
coffee at the local spot or wherever it is.
37:58
It's true, but so I would say first thing is like, educate
38:01
yourself, but don't go into a doom spiral of despair and like
38:05
scroll about the worst things. The only reason to learn about
38:08
the bad stuff is to avoid it and change it and fix it and learn
38:11
about the good stuff that can change the bad stuff, right?
38:14
So like definitely educate yourself about the slavery and
38:17
the trafficking and the child labor and poverty and
38:19
deforestation and coffee, but don't do it in order to feel bad
38:22
about yourself or the world. Like don't feel bad.
38:24
Be gentle to yourself, be kind to yourself.
38:27
Just learn about it in order to be part of the change.
38:29
And then the second thing is buy a different coffee, like consume
38:33
different coffee just in your own life.
38:35
It doesn't have to be perfect all the time.
38:37
Just do the best that you can and buy coffee that matches your
38:40
ethics. And then if you've gotten that
38:43
under your belt and you want to do like one step more, you could
38:46
become a coffee ambassador. You can start gifting coffee to
38:51
people on their birthdays or when you get invited to
38:53
somebody's house for brunch or you go to a holiday with your
38:58
friends and your family and you stay with them and you bring a
39:00
house gift. Or for like Christmas or
39:02
Hanukkah or whatever Mother's Day, you can give a really
39:06
ethical coffee. And with a note that says like,
39:08
I love you, you love the planet, you're an awesome person.
39:11
This coffee is like equally awesome to you.
39:13
And I think you're going to like it.
39:14
It's tasty. I love it.
39:15
I love you. This coffee loves the planet and
39:17
it's good for farmers and forests.
39:18
And if you even can find the courage to change the coffee
39:23
that's served at your office, at your institution, at your
39:27
university. If you can find inside of
39:29
yourself the courage to just go talk to your favorite barista or
39:33
the manager at your cafe where you go all the time.
39:36
Or if you have like, a sister-in-law who runs a
39:38
restaurant or a childhood friend who's a chef, just talk to those
39:43
people and try to get system change.
39:46
Because every office, university, bowling hall,
39:49
mosque, synagogue, church, like every institution that changes
39:53
its coffee sends a market signal and raises awareness.
39:57
And, you know, I think that we have this immense, gorgeous
40:04
power and that we don't even realize how strong we are until
40:08
we try to unleash that power. But almost all of your listeners
40:12
could probably be amazing ambassadors for coffee
40:15
sustainability if they choose to do that.
40:18
And they don't have to be perfect or do it all the time.
40:20
They can be like episodic, but every little bit matters.
40:24
I really believe that. So, and I'm going to challenge
40:26
you just a little bit with the one thing that I see as being a
40:31
stumbling block for people in what you just said, which is a
40:34
great, you know, first step. How do people know?
40:38
How do you find coffees that you believe are ethical in that way?
40:42
You know, what's the resource for them is coffee watch?
40:44
Do do they do that? Do you say, Hey, this is a
40:46
company we've, you know, like B Corp for whatever its problems
40:50
might be? Part of that is it gives people
40:53
on the outside and easy way any certification to see if
40:56
something matches their value to a point.
41:00
I say to a point, always take that with a grain of salt,
41:02
everyone. But you know, how do people, how
41:06
do you suggest to your friends and family this is how you find
41:10
ethical coffees when I'm not around to tell you?
41:12
Yeah, we'll share with you what I know.
41:15
Yeah, I I get this question all the time.
41:18
So we made a whole section on the website that's about like
41:20
how to buy ethical coffee and you can just click on it and it
41:23
explains all the different things you can think about.
41:26
The good news is there's ethical coffee almost everywhere in the
41:29
world. The bad news is sometimes it's
41:31
not available everywhere. So if you're like in Denmark,
41:34
you could get slow forest coffee.
41:35
If you're in London, you can get kissed the hippo coffee.
41:37
If you're in Indonesia, there's orangutan coffee.
41:40
In the US, there's all this like Smithsonian bird friendly
41:43
certified coffee. So we try to like, make it
41:48
easier for people all over the world to buy more ethical coffee
41:51
by kind of walking them through all the different issues and
41:55
also explaining what is this certification do and what does
41:58
it not do? And then you can make up your
42:00
own mind about like, what matches your ethics, right?
42:03
So, for example, organic, it's really nice not to poison the
42:07
planet, isn't it? I mean, like, we're in something
42:09
called the insect apocalypse. If you Google insect apocalypse,
42:12
The New York Times had this amazing article and Manga Bay as
42:15
well. And so we're like, it's it's
42:18
terrible what's happening to insects, right?
42:19
And and pesticides are pretty bad.
42:21
For insects, they're designed to be bad for them, isn't it?
42:24
And so if you buy chemical free coffee, like organic certified
42:28
coffee, at a minimum, it's not immediately driving the insect
42:33
apocalypse and therefore the mass extinction crisis that
42:36
we're in. And for what it's worth, a lot
42:38
of coffee workers also get poisoned.
42:40
Like women who are pregnant are exposed to terrible things and
42:45
kids are working with exposure to chemicals and also like
42:49
adults. Should not do we?
42:51
You know all. Men too, nobody should have to
42:54
like be poisoned for when they're growing coffee and, and,
42:57
and, and when I say poison, literally like we do have this
43:00
report from Dad Watch from 2012 of coffee workers like actually
43:04
getting hospitalized and dying because of pesticide stuff and
43:08
not having the right PPE and things like that.
43:10
So often if you're very poor and you're, you're a disempowered
43:13
coffee worker without a union or whatever you'd like, just don't
43:16
get good PPE and then you're touching terrible stuff and it's
43:18
OK. So the rest is history.
43:20
So if you're, if all you can do is buy organic coffee, that's
43:24
great. It's organic does not guarantee
43:27
a living income. It doesn't look at human rights
43:31
really. It doesn't guarantee no
43:33
deforestation. So organic is kind of
43:36
incomplete. It's as if I you said it said
43:39
sing me the alphabet and I would say ABCDQRSZ.
43:46
He'd be like all. Right.
43:46
Well, that's definitely. Partial credit, you know, so or
43:50
so, some certifications do great things even if they don't do
43:54
everything that we would want them to do.
43:56
And I try to explain to people on the website what all the
44:00
certifications do and don't do. So it's all there.
44:03
And you don't have to buy perfect coffee, you just have to
44:07
buy better coffee. And all you have to do is try I.
44:12
Would like to introduce you to someone who's making a a
44:15
statement right now. Is this a super super cute dog
44:19
that I'm going to want to kidnap?
44:21
Probably. Oh my God, look at you.
44:29
You're too cute. Hold on.
44:33
So this is our first episode of season 16, so it's only
44:36
appropriate that you see who accompanies me on every show.
44:39
Oh. My God.
44:40
This is keto. Cutie patootie.
44:45
This is his whole life. This is what I why I worry about
44:49
the future is because I assume you'll live forever.
44:52
I would be amiss as we're coming up.
44:54
You know, I feel like I could ask you questions for hours and
44:57
hours and you'd have answers. But I heard a rumor that you
45:01
were targeted by hit hit men, hit persons.
45:03
Is this true? Is this a rumor?
45:06
It would be terrible of me to not ask that.
45:08
I have to know. Look, it was such an interesting
45:11
experience. I went to Gabon, which at the
45:15
time had a different government, right?
45:16
Because now they've they've had a change.
45:19
But at the time, it was a pretty ruthless dictatorship that's
45:22
been in power for a long time. And we had investigated in, in
45:27
my previous job that I was doing at the time, we'd investigated
45:30
deforestation for like palm oil and rubber.
45:32
This is before my coffee work ever started.
45:35
And the government of Gabon was involved in like a joint venture
45:39
with a company. And we sort of exposed all these
45:42
problems and it made like huge waves and caused a lot of
45:46
change. And I'd heard from a couple
45:50
people that the government was very annoyed.
45:52
With our work, but I didn't really take it that seriously
45:55
because a lot of governments get annoyed with their work over the
45:58
years. But anyways, I went after the
46:01
campaign and I thought everything was fine and then
46:07
like I was supposed to leave the country and my driver vanished.
46:13
And these like people at the hotel, it immediately helped me
46:18
find this other car. And I thought maybe the driver
46:21
had like a huge family emergency or something or got super sick
46:24
or whatever and I wanted to stay and figure it out and try to
46:29
help him if anything had gone wrong.
46:31
But like I. Had to also get a flight so.
46:33
I just went with this car and I ended up really bonding with
46:39
these two dudes for these huge super buff like like the Rock,
46:43
but Gavinese like amazingly buff dudes and then I.
46:47
Realized they were wearing like army boots and had all this like
46:51
little army paraphernalia and stuff.
46:53
And as we were like bonding and chatting one of them started to
46:57
say fuck it, I can't do this I hate our president.
47:00
I was like what? Oh my God.
47:02
Well, you said it first and and then they they ended up just
47:07
being so nice. They even like held up this
47:09
little sheet for me so I could pee on the side of the road and
47:12
and then we. Got close to the capital and one
47:20
of them pulled out this wee wee you thing what is it called in
47:24
English? Like you put on the siren, a
47:26
siren, but like one of those, you know, little policey sirens
47:28
that you put on the roof and with a magnet and he put it on
47:31
the roof and I. Was like, what?
47:33
What is that? I've never seen this.
47:36
And he said, OK, this is very serious.
47:39
Don't ever come back in an airplane to this country ever
47:42
again. You are now our sister.
47:44
I have given you my WhatsApp. If you need to come back, you
47:48
will come back, like via a road. Here's the roadblock where I
47:51
will come and meet you. You message me.
47:53
Don't tell anyone else right now.
47:57
We're gonna go really fast. Like just run through you're
48:02
talking about. And I and they were just so
48:04
nice. And at the end we like, hugged
48:06
and yeah, anyways, took kind of Long story short, it was a
48:10
little scary. I, I've only known you for about
48:14
45 minutes, but I believe that you could have charmed a hitman.
48:19
I, I, I'm wondering before we lose, before we end up running,
48:24
you know, through the, the stop sign at the end of the show.
48:28
I mentioned at the beginning you were celebrating one year of
48:30
coffee watch. Yeah.
48:33
I'm wondering what it means to have have reached that milestone
48:35
for you and and where you see this going.
48:39
Well, you know, I would have loved to do so much more, but it
48:43
did feel like we accomplished a lot.
48:45
We, you know, looking back on that one year mark, we went
48:50
from, I don't know, like 0 to over 1,000,000 views on social
48:55
media in just like 6. Months.
48:56
That was pretty neat. And we put out seven reports and
49:00
we got like hundreds of articles in the press about our work.
49:04
That was so gratifying. You know, you never know if
49:06
people will think that your stuff is interesting or just
49:08
like random twaddled. They're like.
49:11
That is so boring. So it's always nice when people
49:15
like, want to. Write about your stuff.
49:17
And if, if, if they care too, then you know, because
49:20
newspapers are seen by so many more readers than we would ever
49:24
have, then that brings, I think, millions of people to, to learn
49:27
the truth about some of what's happening in the coffee
49:30
industry. So I do feel like it was a good
49:32
year for raising awareness. And so I feel proud of that.
49:38
I feel a little bit sad that the certification schemes haven't
49:44
all just immediately stepped up to pay a living income price for
49:48
farmers. Maybe I'm I'm really naive, I
49:52
promise. So my father says I embody the
49:54
endless triumph of optimism over experience.
49:56
And I probably and I am kind of a naive like stupid optimist
49:59
person, but. I, I, I'm dumb.
50:03
I literally thought that when we started talking with them, the
50:06
certification schemes would be like, shit, We did not realize
50:10
how bad it is. We will ensure that all the farm
50:13
workers get a living wage and that all the farmers get a
50:18
living income reference price for their coffee.
50:21
We will figure out a way. And I yeah, that just like
50:26
hasn't happened at all. And half of global coffee is
50:29
certified. So that that was very sad to me.
50:34
And I also don't understand why more like small sustainable
50:38
coffee companies haven't called the certification schemes to say
50:40
like what the F&F, why are we not doing better?
50:44
How can we have these problems? Like I'm paying you to make us
50:47
sustainable. I thought that there would be
50:50
thousands of calls from CE OS and C OS of coffee companies to
50:54
the certification schemes to say like change this so that.
51:00
You know, the awareness raising was great.
51:03
It was a huge learning thing for me to set up an NGO.
51:06
I've never done that before. And I'm so immensely grateful to
51:08
everyone that helped on the journey.
51:10
My, my staff and consultants and friends and they're just the
51:13
best. They're like, they're like the
51:16
cats meow. But I'm sad that the
51:21
certification schemes didn't step up to improve a lot really
51:24
quickly, because I thought that would happen.
51:26
I'm not so surprised that the coffee companies haven't stepped
51:30
up because usually it takes a bit more pressure for really big
51:33
companies to change a business model.
51:35
Like slavery is so cheap, right? And child labor's so cheap you
51:37
don't have to pay kids so. So then what is the, what is the
51:42
next year look like for you? You know, now you have this, you
51:45
know, I'm assuming you're still processing the first year, but
51:49
as you keep going day by day, what does the future of Coffee
51:52
Watch look like? Well, so we did a bunch of new
51:55
investigations for the in the coffee harvest season recently,
52:00
and we found horrible information about sexual
52:03
violence and coffee and child labor and coffee and migrant
52:06
abuse and coffee and deforestation in other
52:09
countries. Like, because we'd done our
52:12
first report on deforestation in Brazil for coffee because it's
52:15
the number one coffee producer, but we started looking at all
52:19
the other top coffee producing countries and mapping, you know,
52:22
deforestation. So we have all those reports to
52:25
put out. As best we can.
52:30
And hopefully that will change things a bit more.
52:32
You know, sometimes it just takes a little while for people
52:35
to really hear the bad news and put it in their heart and be
52:39
like, OK, I got to do better. And maybe that's what will
52:43
happen next year. I'm inspired by your optimism.
52:47
I It doesn't come naturally for me, certainly, but if I were to
52:51
to run into you in person and want to take you to a coffee
52:55
shop and buy you something, a cup of coffee or a tea or
52:57
something, what is it that you drink when you stop somewhere?
53:00
A suit. Let's just presume it's
53:02
ethically sourced. Everything is wonderful about
53:04
this, this particular cafe. My favorite is oat milk lattes.
53:08
My husband makes one for me every morning.
53:11
That's a good husband. Yeah.
53:14
And how can people listening? We're going to share all the
53:18
links coffee watch.org and your social media, your coffee watch
53:22
on on blue sky, which I always like.
53:26
How how can people support you or what should they?
53:29
Where should they go to find motivation to support you?
53:34
Yeah, well, so I mean, one thing that would be amazing is for
53:38
just two people to for. Them to follow us on social
53:41
media. We do try to put out a lot of
53:43
really helpful, useful information about what does good
53:47
look like, good companies and good change and good ideas about
53:51
reforming coffee. And there's also, I think I
53:54
would say maybe a little bit more sad bad news.
53:57
About the problems in coffee. But all of that you can get on
54:00
our social media and we're on every platform, even like some
54:04
of the sadder, worst platforms like Twitter.
54:07
Which always makes me feel a little.
54:08
Cringy. We're there too, so you can
54:10
follow us on social. That would probably be like the
54:12
number one thing I would ask people to do.
54:14
And you know, we would never turn down a donation.
54:17
However much you spend on coffee per day or per week or per year,
54:22
please. Give it to us and we'll do our
54:24
best to help make the coffee industry a A.
54:27
Friendlier to forests and farmers and people in planet
54:31
alike. And then I would say, yeah, you
54:33
know, don't even worry about Coffee Watch.
54:36
Like, the real thing to do is just to change your coffee and
54:40
become a coffee ambassador with all your friends and family and
54:43
workers that coworkers and whatever institution you're in.
54:47
Like, honestly, fuck me. Fuck Coffee Watch.
54:49
Just, you know, be a coffee. Sustainability ambassador, like
54:53
if you did that, then I would, I would kiss you.
54:55
I'd be like, thank you. That's the best gift you could
54:58
give me. Yeah.
55:02
Etel, thank you so much. Just for, you know, the hour
55:05
and, and sharing a little bit about what you do.
55:08
There's a lot more I'm sure we can chat about in the future
55:10
and, but hopefully this gets people started and heading to
55:13
coffeewatch.org and learning more about it.
55:15
And any last piece of advice you'd like to share or just a
55:20
thought in general for anyone listening.
55:22
Did we miss it? You know, coffee is so special.
55:26
It's this thing that brings us together, it's what you do with
55:31
your friends, it's the thing you start your day with.
55:35
And many of us like, really love it.
55:38
But we should give back some of that love to coffee, I think.
55:42
And it's not so hard to do. And if everybody tries a little
55:50
bit even, I really think we can make the world a better place
55:54
together. I think it's not too late.
55:56
I'm a huge believer in the immense power that millions of
56:00
coffee drinkers have. You know, some companies, they
56:04
have millions of dollars and it's hard to fight them, but we
56:07
have millions of people. Who are good people?
56:10
And that's better. So that's lame.
56:13
That's how I'd like to. I think that.
57:11
This is my simply good coffee Brewer insulated thermal pot
57:17
which is extremely heavy duty. It keeps my coffee hot.
57:29
I think I did that pretty good.