Latest / Books4Guys / Would You Hire You? | Chris Flakus on Career Reinvention and Continuous Learning

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Would You Hire You? | Chris Flakus on Career Reinvention and Continuous Learning · Books4Guys

• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Way game for the Titans at least once a year now, too.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Cause my thankfully I'm blessed.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: My wife loves sports.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: She's actually the one that talked us into season tickets.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, hey, if this is what you want to do, I'm not going to argue.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: But now we're like, hey, we need to go to like travel to some away stadiums because we saw a lot of Jaguar fans here last year, too.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, well, we need to let's just go to Florida.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Let's start there.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe we'll make it down to where you're at.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: We absolutely should do that.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that's so we do try and go to Nashville every year.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: But obviously, you know, I mean, it's it's you got the football side, but then you just have such a great social scene.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: So you can't not go there.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's like we played Dallas this year, so we'll be going out there to go to the course.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a good excuse to travel.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: But no, Chris, man, I'm super pumped to have you on the podcast because we were already talking about really cool things and there's a lot of correlation.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm in the staffing space, been in it for about 20 years.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: You've been doing it a lot longer, and have, I mean, you're the CEO of and you're on the board of CSI Companies, which is a major staffing firm in the country as well.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: And when I saw that, I was like, okay, we're gonna have a good conversation because I know a lot of what you're talking about in your book, and I want to make sure your book title Stay Relevant, Conquer Workplace Change at Every Phase of Your Career.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't think of a better time for this book to come out, Chris, because there's a lot going on.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think your book will resonate, and it probably already is with a lot of people because, you know, I want you to get in your story, but I was one point I was just thinking about before we got on here.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: One of your points is talking about your age and how to combat against that.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: But in this age of technology and AI and how fast things are going, I was thinking of age and I was like, man, you can feel outdated after just working five to ten years, not necessarily a whole career.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: But man, Chris, talk a little bit about your story, just your you getting into staffing, first of all, and how you've built that career up over, you know, a few decades now.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then what prompted you to put this book together and put it out there for people to read?
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you for the question.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, I can't can't tell you how excited I am to be here.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just amazed by the diversity that you've had so many incredible people on this and the different types of books.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was going back through, you're not on your blogs, but but some of some of the previous conversations you've had.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's just amazing how many different types of people you've been able to talk to.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: But for me personally, I would tell you it's just thin threads.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, you just never know.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you get an opportunity and, you know, so just don't give it a second thought, right?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: And you just move on and you do something else.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: For me, I never thought about getting into the staffing world.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: I never thought about being in sales.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: I always thought that I would, you know, I would be a career counselor or I would be some sort of academic advisor in in some school and be a basketball coach.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's just always what I thought I would do growing up.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I did, you know, I did go to school for that.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: I went working on a master's degree in education so that I could be a guidance counselor.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I was working with a, with a woman who was a mentor at the time.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't even realize what a mentor was in my early 20s like that, who had a son that worked in staffing, and and I met him and he said, Hey, you know what?
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: You'd be great in sales.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I grew up in a house where everybody, you know, my parents both worked for the government and we didn't really think about corporate America very much.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I never really thought about it in a positive light, right?
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Greedy people went into business is sort of the way my parents kind of taught me.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, so yeah, I was like, you know, I should have this conversation.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I went down and and I don't know why.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like I just honestly look back and I think if if nothing else, maybe it was a God thing, right?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: I just got pushed that direction.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I was just enamored with the idea of the harder you work, the more money you can make.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because the one thing that I'd noticed already working a couple of years for the local college while I was working on my maps was I felt like all the people that have been there well gave me all the work to do.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: I did all the work, they got all the credit.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I started, you know, looking at what they were doing.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, okay, this person's been doing what I've been doing for a year.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: They've been doing it for 10 or 15 years.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: We make the same money, right?
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't just about money, but it was more about, you know, I grew, I grew up competitive.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: I was an athlete, and I thought you work hard and you get, you know, you get what comes to you for working hard, except in some jobs, right?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: Some things, some careers, right?
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: You could work really good, really hard and have a ton of financial success.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: And others are not that waste.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: Thin threads, I took the interview, I went down there, had a great meeting, and the company was called Acustaff.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: It became MODIS and the MODIS became a deco.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um and obviously publicly traded, billion-dollar corporation.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I started in recruiting, then went into sales, and I absolutely loved it.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: I absolutely love the competitive nature.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: As you, you know, you're in this business and you kind of know in this world, working with clients, things can change every day.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so as time went on, just kind of make the long story a little bit shorter for your for people that might be listening, right?
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: I I just I continued to work hard.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: I was always that person that I realized, you know, if I was the first one there and I was the last one to leave, I would have more opportunities.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's something that I I got from reading.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: To be honest with you, I started reading books at an early age and I remember, you know, people like Jack Welch saying, look, you know, just be that guy like Dale Carnegie stuff, right?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to be the one that shows up first and is the last to leave.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of what I always did.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: Got into a management.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: I was a uh regional manager at offices in Atlanta and Jacksonville.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then ultimately got to the point where I said, you know what, I think I could do this on my own.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I thought, you know what, I'm gonna go out and do executive search and do this on my own.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that was in 1999.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really old.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of people here are probably maybe not even born then.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: But in, and so if you know remember what happened, right?
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: You had 2001, you had 9-11.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was out on my own when that happened.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I had gotten a call from uh from a CEO of a local company here called Custom Staffing Inc., right?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: CSI.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: And they're this little tiny staffing company.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: And like, we don't do any executive search, we don't do any IT, we don't do any accounting and finance.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: I know the economy is crazy, but we'd love to have you come in and help start professional staffing for us.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's the way I got to CSI all those years ago.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: So in 2002, I joined them.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, you've got a lot of years later and a lot of effort and a lot of iterations of CSI and different things that we've tried.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I never went into this thinking, wow, one day I'll be CEO.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Went into it thinking one day we'll be a billion-dollar organization.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I was so focused on growing the company, I wasn't really so worried about my own personal job titles.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: But we've been very fortunate, Chris, to be honest with you.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I would tell you again that long story, like the reason for the book, or the reason how I got to the book was over the course of 30-something years and just so many interactions with candidates, right?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: Especially in executive search, you have people that are like, look, I'm struggling to find a job or whatever it is.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so you take a lot of those meetings.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: There's always that person.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: I love people, I love talking to people just like you.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: You want you want to help people get better and have a and better their lives.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that was always a big part of my practice.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so I've just had hundreds, if not thousands, of meetings with men and women over the years about their struggles in the world of work.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it just, I started taking notes, right?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: You start to kind of hear the same stories over and over again.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what led to the book.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: The book was never about, oh, I've been doing something a long time, let me write a book.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: It was never an ego play.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: I will say that sincerely.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like it really was look, there's some things that I see that people run into that if we can figure out how to help them get over that speed bump, we should do it.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that's sort of what how the book came about.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's awesome, Chris.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: And that leads me to a good question for you.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I was thinking everything you were saying, I'm sitting here thinking of just my staffing journey too, and thinking about how when you when you see people who have been successful in the staffing world, their story always kind of starts the same.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like, didn't even know this was a thing.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: I uh kind of got into it by accident.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then I learned, like, hey, you can make a very good living and and at the same time, you're helping people.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're really passionate about people and seeing people succeed, and man, there's nothing better than someone calling you and being like, Chris, thank you so much for for getting me this job, or you know, a client saying, Man, the the person you gave us is just crushing it.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: They've they've been so important to the organization.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Add that with getting a paycheck, and you're like, Man, this is the best, the best career in the world.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like this 100%.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: But Chris, you're talking about your book.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: You kind of led me into a question because you were talking about how you you you've spoken to so many candidates and you hear the same story, probably a lot of, I can't find a job because of this reason, or I'm not getting interviewed because of this reason.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm assuming a lot of your book, and maybe I'm wrong, but but maybe it revolves around certain mind shifts or the or the way you think and the way maybe some people automatically limit themselves when maybe they don't need to be thinking that way.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then really that's not a real limitation to why they're not finding a job.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: But what are some of those things you uncovered that people were saying, and what are some things that you talk about specifically that helps them?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know you got like a 12-week program a part of this.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what are some of those transformational thoughts or processes that you implement to help them overcome those maybe mental barriers or whatever they're struggling with?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, great question.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a really important point.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I um so really we broke the 12-week program that the book is is really, like you said, a 12-week program.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: We broke it down into three really main mindset changes.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the first thing is actually called mindset, right?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: You have to work on your mindset before you can work on your skill set.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then the final concluding part of that is mirror set to make sure you're actually portraying what you think you're portraying.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: But the mindset piece comes first, Chris.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's a 100% like you said.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think so many people lose early in your career, and you know this from placing candidates, and just like I've seen it, early in your career, you're literally a sponge.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: You're you're learning everything that you can learn from the people around you.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: You're reading a lot, you're going to seminars, you're doing all of these things to really enhance your career.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, and since we're talking mostly about guys here, right?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I I would say this kind of the book is sort of focused on men, it's men and women, but but men, because I I have seen this more with men, you get to that point where you're like, well, I've got it all figured out.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so then you start defending, you start defending.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: So instead of constantly looking for new answers, you feel like you've got the answers, right?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and I'll say that for myself.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like I challenge myself with that.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: You think you've got some answers.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so then you sort of defend your opinion, you defend your thoughts, you defend your actions, you defend all of the things that you've done over the years to get you to where you've got until one day you might have that challenge where you go, I didn't get a promotion, or I got let go and I'm struggling to find that next job.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Or you're starting to see that your industry is changing and you're not exactly sure how to keep up.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for me, mindset is the most important part.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: You have to, you have to re-engage that, those muscles around being culturable, coachable, and being curious.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you guys watch Ted Lasso, right?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Ted Lasso, they that my favorite episode was talking about being curious.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: That to me, so much of this book is just about being curious again about other ways to do things.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, for for guys especially, sometimes you have to check your ego at the door, which is a very hard thing to do.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're going to, if you're going to really be do self-assessment and self-evaluation, you have to put that ego aside.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so we talk about that a lot in the book.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's the hardest thing to do, the mindset piece, but it's the most important.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you can't get to a point where you just go, hey, maybe I don't have all the answers.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, maybe things have changed.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe the person that's five years younger than me that just recently got hired that seems to be fast tracking faster than I am, maybe they're doing something that I don't even know to do.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so that I would just tell you that without getting too deep into the details in the book, that that really is the key.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like you've got to be able to look at things and say, maybe it's my employer, maybe it's not the market, maybe it's not this new, the new hiring manager at this new company that I've been trying to get into.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe some of it's me.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: And Chris, you may, I'm thinking a couple things here.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: You may know who uh Casey J.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: Cox is, who uh has been staffing a long time, but it's funny.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: I had him on this podcast, and we got to talking about being curious.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I brought up Ted Lasso and he was like, Chris, I literally have a a poster on my wall in front of me of this exact thing.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it seems like people who are constantly growing, that's their best asset of staying curious and humble and trying to learn new things.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it it coincides perfectly with the conversation I was listening to yesterday from another CEO.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the questions was, hey, like you're so successful.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like when, you know, why why are you so driven to continue doing what you're doing?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: And he talked about potential.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, well, early in my career, my potential looked like this.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: But when I got there, I got other I now there's more potential.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: There's more potential.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: You actually reach your full potential.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: And if you can think that way, you're constantly going to chase growth and and learning and personal development getting better and better, and you're gonna consistently accomplish more things.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: And in this case, if you stay curious, you're gonna continue to learn new skills and and and have new abilities to where you can almost bulletproof yourself and be valuable, no matter you know what what you've done before.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: If you continue to advance and learn, you're gonna have a you're gonna have a play.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that you say that because I'm the same way.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard candidates say, I'm just I'm just too old, you know, they they only want to hire the young guys.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, well, no, actually, if you just knew what they were looking for, you'd be a candidate.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, no, you're no, you're a hundred percent right on that.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: I I think people they they become self-limiting, right?
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: I I I do think that.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think that and and it's also it's funny, so many people, whatever excuse it is, if that becomes your excuse, it could become your mantra.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it's almost like that's the thing that gets in your way, and you have to be so careful.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing I, as you know from from being in this business, right?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: Clients, clients aren't looking necessarily for that young up-and-comer.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: They're looking for the person that's going to help them solve problems.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so we can, we, we literally just like you do, we work with clients all the time on.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: So what is the challenge?
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: What is it that you're trying hiring two people or hiring a whole project team?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what problem are you trying to solve for?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: They never say, I need, you know, I need younger people, right?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: So to me, it if you've kept yourself relevant, if you've if you've maintained curiosity, if you've maintained a work ethic and a humility of, hey, look, I'm going to this new client.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to help them solve this problem.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not necessarily all going to look back on, well, 10 years ago, we did it this way or that way.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's amazing how many clients don't care.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: They really don't care if you're 60 or if you're 35.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: They need to have a problem solved.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's, I think for other people, you don't get a job or something happened and you're like, well, I didn't get the job because I'm 60 or whatever it is.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's not it most of the time, almost 100% of the time.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Now I'm not going to be naive and say that that some of that doesn't exist out there, but I'm the more relevant you keep yourself, the more those muscles, right?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Those muscles that we talked about, the more you keep those tuned in, like asking questions and and really trying to see what's going on out there, I it really makes such a huge difference in an interview.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's amazing.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say now more than ever, that's the case.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe over time there were some stipulations or someone wanted something over another, but now it's like, hey, we're moving fast.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: I need the problem solved.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: Who can do it?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Don't care who you are, where where you are, even.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let's get someone who can do this.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: Chris, I'm curious to know what are some things that I don't know, you recommend that people do spend the time learning.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to use the magic word every AI.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, it's a big thing, and you probably are seeing tons of transition and change in in your space just as a as your own company, as well as with clients in the recruiting industry.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: So many moving pieces to it.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I talk a lot about networking and and being out there and talking with people and being front of mind and not just not being flaky about it in a way, but actually genuinely going and being interested in other people and building those relationships.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: But in your opinion, in this specific day and time, what are some things people do need to be learning and staying on top of so that they are having the right conversations and being in front of the right people so that those opportunities continue to show up for them?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a great question.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's a couple of ways to look at it, right?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think if you've been working in for the same company and you're in a very similar role for a long time, I think we can all get stale.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what happens is that you you you get to know the way your company does things or maybe even your industry.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: And if you haven't broadened your horizons a little bit, right?
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: If you haven't gone out there and started to pay attention to what's going on in the broader market, you really can get stale.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so the things that are like AI, everybody's talking about AI in the staffing world and the legal world and so many other industries where they're like, well, one day AI will take over everything.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, certainly AI is gonna have a huge impact.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: But that also means that there's a ton of opportunities.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think for me, if AI just is a buzzword and you're like, well, in five years, I'm not gonna have a job, and that's what you've settled on, then that's your reality.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Just like, you know, the the more why do you read?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Why do we read a lot of books?
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because it expands our reality.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like we only know the things that we know.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: The more books you read, the more experience, the more other people's experiences that you read, the more you broaden, you know, you really broaden your base.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I think for me, it's if you literally have not gone and gone to some seminars or gone online and taken some AI classes just to understand, you know, there's so many, so many classes through junior colleges or just your local college right now that you can go and you can just sit in.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know past failed grades or anything, you can just sit in and learn what's the difference between Claude?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: When do you use Cloud?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: When do you use Chat GPT?
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: When do you use, you know, copilot or whatever it is, when do you use these different tools?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: You it'd be amazing how much more confident you'll be about the world when you just are more aware of those things.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think what you said is exactly right.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think there are certain things that everybody needs to do.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: But to me, it's it depends on your situation.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: The longer you've been doing what you've been doing, the more things have probably passed you by out there that you don't even know.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: And the only way you're gonna know that is getting more education or spending a lot of time talking to people.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing I encourage people all the time, are you having coffees?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like, are you are you finding thought leaders out there or people that are in other industries, other organizations that that you've heard great things about that you might respect from LinkedIn or other social media?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: Have you invited them to lunch?
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: Have you had a Zoom call with them?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: Have you spent 10 minutes just asking them, hey, what are you seeing out there?
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then you know that for the people that can afford to, that that that are are so inclined to getting an executive coach.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: I just I look back on decisions that I've made that really paid off.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: And and just getting a coach that was a broad, not specific to an industry, just a broad career coach, to just sort of talk through like, how do I, like, how do I compare myself to other people in similar roles?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what are they doing that I'm not doing?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: Where are their opportunities?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: If you're willing to be that introspective and that coachable, it's amazing how much more confidence that'll bring you in any situation, whether you're in an interview or your next client meeting or whatever it is.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's an amazing, uh just just that that that little bit broader base helps so much with your confidence.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: Man, Chris, this conversation in your book, I feel like is such a cheat code.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I I say that all the time.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Reading is is such a blueprint.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't read the book, listen to this conversation because I love what you're talking about there as far as I hear the same thing.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: And the people that seem to struggle the most in finding their next role, if they've worked somewhere for 20 years and got let go, is because of their lack of networking or getting out there and doing things, you know, so they don't have the relationships.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious to know this kind of leads me to another question for you, Chris, because I'm thinking of sometimes it's good to have a healthy dose of fear in a in a certain situation of hey, AI is here, and and maybe my job, maybe it won't be impacted, but maybe it will.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: So what am I doing to make sure that if my job is impacted, where else can I go?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: What else can I do?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: As a leader of an organization that's been successful for so long, is there that healthy dose of fear and uncertainty, even as a leader of, hey, I don't know where this is going?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're gonna we have a plan and we're and we're operating in a certain way because we think this is gonna happen.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: But just for you personally, in a personal growth type of a assessment, do you kind of have your own healthy dose of fear where you're like, hey, I I gotta keep things ahead myself or my company may go through some things that I really don't want it to go through.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Man, that is another great question.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you're I think you're exactly right.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: And if that, if more people fought like that, more people would be prepared.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think what happens is that I don't want to say we all bear our heads in the sand, but you know, you do get comfortable.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: If you've been doing what you've been doing a while, you've gotten pretty good at it, and you've made some money, right?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: And you start thinking, oh, I'm a VP or I'm a whatever, and you know, my career's fine, like I'm fine.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: You can never get to that complacency level.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like you have to constantly have a little bit of fear.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: You think about it, you know, you're in you're in sales and other people that are in a sales role.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: Your desk, your your role is worth a certain amount to the company.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so we try and tell people, you've got to be earning your your desk every single day.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: So there's that type of fear, right?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Fear to just keep your own desk in your own company.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: Then the other part is what's happening more macroeconomics, what's happening in the world?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think that that's the second thing we talk about in the book after after mindset is skill set, really be evaluating yourself against the market.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I that's a hard thing.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's many executives I've as I've talked to over the years.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: That led to the premise of my book, that question of would you hire you?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think you probably saw that in the book.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: That that question, when I would ask executives, would you hire you, really led to the book.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I say that in the context of the question you just asked, because so many people would automatically say, Yes, you know, the company would rehire me or a new company would hire me.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: But if the but the more you really look at the broader market and the competition that you're up against for any role or or in any industry, if you're able to kind of judge yourself against the broader market, that fear will be there, right?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because then you start going, I better be, I better keep my skills up.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: I better be the most equipped that I can possibly be because you just never know.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, I do think a healthy level of fear is really, really important.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: But most people are struggling with that right now, right?
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: They'll be like, oh, AI down there.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: Just kind of kick the can on it.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: Always encourage, don't kick the can on things like this, right?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Get ahead of it.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Figure out how could I like, how could I utilize AI to do make my role better?
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because then if you figure out ways to do that right now, the value that you have to your current company is unbelievable, right?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: And if they don't, if they don't kind of respect that extra that you can bring, that's when you can go to another company and be like, look, I can help you solve some of these problems that I've heard that you have because I've gotten really good at doing these three or four things, right?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: That that other people maybe haven't taken the time to do yet.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: No, absolutely.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: And and I know we're we're talking about things and it's in conversation, it sounds easier.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I totally understand people have to be intentional about this.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to be intentional.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: About learning and putting in the effort.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: It takes time.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: It takes energy.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's not easy to go learn a new skill set or to learn how to use AI in your job.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: Now, it will make things a lot easier down the road, and you'll appreciate that in a month or two.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: You got to remember, you've got to almost think that way.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like, hey, what I do today, I'm going to really appreciate in three months or a year.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so you've got to, then again, it all comes back to that mindset of thinking in different ways so that you can almost trick yourself into doing what you need to do today so that you don't end up in a, you know, a situation you don't want to be in tomorrow.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: Chris, just a couple more questions for you.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: As people read your book and and go through it, if they don't take but one nugget of information from it, what do you hope that one bit of information is that they take away?
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's yeah.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for asking that.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because to me, I keep going back to when I encourage people, one of the hardest things is if you're when you write a book, you're like so many people are like, well, I've known Chris for 20 years.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what does he have to say?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, I've known him, he's a goop baller or whatever.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like, but there are some nuggets in there that I, you know, just like with you, there are things that you know that you know, and other people you hope can learn from some of those, just like I've learned from reading other people's book.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think the biggest nugget is what we just got through saying is you need to be a lifelong learner.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that starts with staying curious.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like you, you cannot, if you find yourself just sort of showing up every day and and kind of mindlessly going to work, and you've got to figure out back at the early in your career, you were motivated by something.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it was motivated to make six figures the first time, or it was motivated to buy you're motivated to buy, you know, some car that you'd always wanted or or will somehow.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't mean to just make a material, but especially in sales and recruiting and some other industries, those are the drivers, right?
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: Or are the what are the rewards for my hard work?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: The takeaway that I would say is just get back to that again.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: Just get back to that hunger of learning, that hunger of what's next for me?
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what is next?
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: What do I reset my goal to be?
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've accomplished this, I'm a VP or whatever it is.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: I sit in the corner office.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Not only how do I maintain this, but how do I even get better at what I'm doing?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then you get to a point, I think, like, like you, you know, kind of the career position that I'm at at this point of being an older, an older guy now is, you know, what's that legacy?
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the legacy for me really is I want people to have success.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like I want, like, I just look back, I've been so extremely fortunate.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: And why is that?
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: I I think it's because I got my butt kicked early on about reading, about staying, you know, just staying educated, about staying ahead of the curve.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it's something that I just sort of took took off, you know, in in inside, and it just became such a big part.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: I want to encourage other people to do the same thing.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: Reading my book, do I think, well, this is the best one?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: This book is extremely practical.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: It it really gets you to think about some things that maybe you haven't thought about for a little while.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it gives you then, once you start thinking about it, it gives you some real tools over a short period of time, exercises to really think about.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: And the takeaway hopefully is become a lifelong learner.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: Just don't settle, right?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: Don't just get complacent.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: And as a leader, I'm sure there's not a better feeling than seeing people succeed because they've implemented something that you've helped kind of coach them on or teach them on, you know.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not even in that level, but I love working with people and seeing people be successful.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: There's not a better feeling, especially if you had a small part in it and they're like, dude, thank you so much.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: This made such a difference for me.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: But seeing them actually do it, man, I can only imagine just what you see as the leader of so many people.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure it's a it's a you can't even describe the feeling of it.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: But Chris, last question for you.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Ask everybody this question that comes on the podcast.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm always curious to know what is a book or two that has meant a lot to you, wow, yeah, personally or professionally, and what's a book that you love to recommend or to give to others?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I said earlier, and I know you're the same, I read a ton.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: I read just a ton of books.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you've got a top 10 list, I think, on your on your blog.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: I would tell you, you know, I've met David Goggins.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: That that book, You Can't Hurt Me, is an amazing book.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I met him through Jesse Itzler, who who wrote a book called Other, right?
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: So we met Jesse years ago.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: We've had him come speak a few times.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: Anything that Jesse's done or David's done, I would say is really great.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: But to me, right now, I've read and reread.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: There's two books by Timothy Ferris that if you haven't read them, Tools of Titans and then Tribe of Mentors, where he went around the world and interviewed thousands of people.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, two or three pages of each person's story, how did they get to where they got and what were the things that were important to them?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: I just feel like learning from other people's successes and failures helps us in our own lives and our own journeys.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: I strongly, strongly recommend Timothy Ferris, those two books to everybody, because you'll find the story of somebody that relates to you.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, there are certain books that you might somebody might say, wow, this book is amazing.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then you read it and you go, it didn't really do anything for me.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: There's no way you can read those, either of those books, and go, wow, I didn't find five or ten stories of exactly the people I relate to.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: Just Tim Ferris, David Goggins, Jesse Itzler.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: Anytime those guys pop up on a podcast or a book comes out, I'm immediately listening because they bring so much insight and just energy.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: And when you get done listening or reading what they have to say, you're like, boom, let's go.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like when you know they've done it.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's the thing I love.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like I like to read things from people that have not theory.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want theory at this point.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like I we're done with that, right?
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: Practical.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like you've lived through it.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: What did you do to get through it?
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's that's those books.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: And hopefully people will see that in this book that we've written is just it's so practical.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's based on people's stories and experiences.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it's something that everybody can implement, in my opinion.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, absolutely.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, great recommendations, Chris.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: And man, thank you so much for taking the time to do this.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: As I think, like I said to start the podcast, I don't think there's a better time for your book to have been written and for people to lean in and take away what you have to say and implement that in your life.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone can get better.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: And if you have that mindset of that continuous learning, you're gonna be okay.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: And you can defend against, you know, the alternative.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so, Chris, thank you for writing your book.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for taking the time to have this conversation with our audience.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: And man, just can't wait to see the impact that it has.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: I can't wait to see what people say.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: I can't wait to see people talk about the things they implemented and then what they were able to overcome with it.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so, man, keep keep speaking your message and keep doing the good work because it's it's awesome and it's needed.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks so much for having me on.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: What a great experience.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's so nice to meet you, right?
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't wait till we, even though we're Jags and Titans, the whole thing, like you know, the whole thing, we'll figure all that out.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: We may go to a game together and wear different jerseys, but it'll be fun nonetheless.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate your time.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Chris.