Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / Relationships in Motherhood | Guest Heather McFadyen Enneagram 4

Transcript

Relationships in Motherhood | Guest Heather McFadyen Enneagram 4 · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, I'm Amy Wicks, a Jesus and Enneagram enthusiast.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: As a wife, mama of three humans, and a fur baby, I get it.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Juggling entrepreneurship in a family is challenging.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I believe the Lord does want your work to be enjoyable.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: As an Enneagram Type 7, I am all about the fun factor.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: And this podcast is here to help you put the joy back into working mom life.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: So you can see 1 Timothy 6.17 come to pass in your own unique life.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's a verse that says that God has given us all things to enjoy.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: All?
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, friends, it means all.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Motherhood, work from home life, or work out of the home life.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: With the Lord's help, there's truly a way to feel calm, balance, joy, clarity, and peace in any arena of life.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Simply Wholehearted Podcast, where you can expect solo-style and interview-style episodes that are full of faith-based concepts, simple ideas, Enneagram insights, alongside practical tips to help you put that smile back on your face when it comes to doing life with Jesus.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now get your headphones and head to that big pile of dishes in the sink, or maybe that bathroom that needed cleaning two weeks ago.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: And let's get to learning together.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Hi friend.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Today we have our friend Heather McFadden on the podcast, sharing her heart all about the power of cultivating community as a busy mom.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Podcast host, author, mama to four boys, and Enneagram 4, Heather has written a book called Don't Mom Alone, which is exactly what we'll be diving into today.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: It is super tempting as a busy woman to prioritize more to do lists instead of leaving a few undone and investing in relationships.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: The temptation increases when your Enneagram number is actually okay with a lot of alone time.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Now, friends, when you see a group of people together, what does it do to your heart?
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Do you long for that same connection, but you don't feel like you have energy or time for it?
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: If you said yes, I'm really excited for you to listen today and learn from the wisdom of Heather.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: She's going to show you what to do with this wishful thinking for more relationships while giving practical tips to help you get started working towards that goal today.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: From one podcaster to another, how long have you been doing your podcast?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's been five years for me.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: It was eight years last Thursday.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: What an amazing thing.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: I am just kind of curious because I just think as my friends, you might already be a household name, and maybe for some of my friends, this is new.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: Heather and McFadden.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: If we were creepers and we were peering in your windows to kind of figure out what goes on in Heather's life, tell us a little bit of what we would see, including your podcasting world, because it's significant.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I have four boys.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we can all imagine now.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: Ages nine through 16.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: So there's just a lot of energy and yet also independence.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm not having to spend as much time as I did 10 years ago meeting all the needs.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: I had an event or a dinner last night, and my youngest made himself chicken noodle soup.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I never would have thought my oldest at nine could do that, but they're just a lot more independent, which is helpful in this season.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: I have been doing the podcast for eight years, but in that time I've added people, which is so helpful because I'm not doing it all myself.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so don't podcast alone either.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um amen.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: Amen.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm working on that.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: If possible, it's it's hard and it, I don't know, there's something about wanting to hold the reins too.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like I was worried the quality would go down.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: It actually went up, right?
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: Which is so silly.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's I think in motherhood too, we do that where we think, oh no, I'm the only one.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: I need to do all the things, and there's a pride in that.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: And then we're scared to let people in and help us, and yet when they do, it's so much better.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: And those other people offer something that you aren't capable of doing, and it just expands your ability to do the things you are able to do well.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so, all of that, I'm I'm learning to be a team player.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: I am innately a solo person, like solo sports, solo activities.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: I don't like teamwork.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: So, in my day-to-day, I am recording episodes and kind of coordinating our different team players and what they do, and including a gal we just brought on who's in Australia.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: She's in the future.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's so yes, yes.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: I have some clients in the future, and it's pretty fun.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's they're on blowing.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: She's working ahead of all of us.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: She's getting a head start, and so she's been helping us.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I don't know if that's answering your question.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that's so good.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: And when the kids are off at school, I'm working.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: When they're home, I'm with them.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, mom.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: I would say I know that just being a fellow podcaster and writer, it's a one-word description of something that has 20 different hats.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not exaggerating.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: I wish I was.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: I really wish I was.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: But that is the reality.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very brief summary of an extensive work that's very nuanced and different every day, which is fun.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Why I think you as a four and I as a seven, we love it.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: But it does require a lot of us and the juggle.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, all of us moms who do choose to wear a few different hats know that there is always that intentionality of being fully present with our work when it's time, but then switching that brain and that, you know, switching our gears and taking off the hat and swapping it out for the being of a mom and being intentional with that time.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think it's also interesting you bring up the solo thing because in working with Enneagram types, all sorts of different types, uh, even when it comes to like motherhood, what would each type want to offload or hire?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: I noticed a theme with type fours and in my good friends as well.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: There is more of an independent streak of fours than almost in any other type, which I think is fascinating.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: I call myself a fliberty gibbet.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm just going and blowing and switching directions, and I like that flexibility.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: And when you have people along for the ride, you're flipping last minute, and that's annoying and frustrating to them.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so the people that I do, the moms that are in my world happen to be sevens because they're up for the last minute phone call of like, hey, you want to go do this?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: And they're okay with a little bit of my chaos.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not, you can't see my floor, but there's just stuff all over it.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: You can kind of see in this mind.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think some other friends have expectations of me that I don't like to hold, I don't want you to expect too much of me.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I kind of push that away.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, I don't necessarily call my mom all the time.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not that I don't love my mom, I just I don't think to do it.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, this is so interesting.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: What I love too is that unbeknownst to maybe some of my listeners, because I don't know that I've described the process, but whenever I have someone come on the podcast, whether they've asked me or I've asked them, I have a little form for them to fill out.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I get some background information and have it all in one place because this is important.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: All the emails, we need to lessen the emails.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the questions, of course, is like, do you know your Enneagram type?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: And what is it?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, very rarely do I get a for certain, first of all.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: But then I never get a full-on wing plus subtype description of oneself.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, dang, girl knows her stuff.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: So do tell, explain to us what you know about your Enneagram type and maybe some of the journey in discovering it because this didn't happen overnight.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think part of it is my husband and I are always talking about personality tests from back when it was Myers Brig.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: He's a strength finders coach, he's a big proponent of industrial psychology.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: So as we go along the way, we are talking about this and we're implementing it.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so as he went deeper into strength finders, I discovered Enneagram, and I can't remember when or how or who, but the more I dug into it, the more I felt seen, the more it was helping my relationships.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought, and then I'm getting all this feedback from listeners whenever I would talk about it, that it's from the devil, and I'm like, I feel like the devil's for division, and this is helping me be more unified.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: So it can a hundred percent be from it.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: If the origins are, I don't care.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of things in our world that the enemy uses for evil, water, it can be good, it you can drown in it, fire.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it could keep you warm, it could burn down your house.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: So we can decide what we use this for, and if we want to use it for evil, then go right ahead.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I honestly think some of the Christian faith, the reason they're villainizing it is I think it has a potential for unity and health and help and helping you grow closer in your relationship with God and where you need Him more, and with others, where you're like just open your eyes to see how other people see, yeah, and have an empathy for that and some grace that their experience is different than yours.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I think all of that is what the Enneagram's given me.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so I've read books and I was just in a I can't, it's not a Bible study.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: It was a an Enneagram coach.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: We had come, and every week she worked through it.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: And that's when I really dug into the subtypes.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'd already looked at wings and where you go in stress and health and the subtype stuff.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: I was just, I mean, it just next level because people will hear I'm a four and they don't believe me.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, interesting.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: They don't believe me.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, people and who know a little bit about it and they've heard the types and they think, oh, fours are moody and angsty and you know, so defecall.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm thinking, and they're like, you don't seem like that, which is just because I'm the self-preservation subtype, which looks like a one of three or a seven.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so people always think of a seven.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: Explains everything.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: And then I also have in my life span had the social subtype be a little dominant, which I could totally see those seasons of my life where I'm very focused on what the system, what's where do I fit in the system?
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: And that looks more like a six because people are like, you talk about your anxiety and your fear, and yeah, but when I'm in that zone, that's how that comes out.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't prefer it.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: But I heard about the subtypes and it's like a cake, you know, and certain layers are thicker and more dominant than others on top.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: And the one-to-one is bottom for me for sure.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I love this, Heather.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think, you know, I have for a while now thought, okay, how because I teach about the subtypes of my one-on-one.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, how can I take it to the socials?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: How can I take it to the podcast?
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because that for me was relatively too, because I am a social seven, which I wouldn't have considered myself social, but it explained why I mistyped myself for so long, not only as a two, but also as a three.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's in those subtypes where we go, oh, this is why sometimes other personality types look familiar, not necessarily feel in our inner motivations, but they look familiar.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like the behaviors, exactly behaviors, but the why is different and the so different.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: And the core passion or desire is different, but the strategies look similar.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you are in good company, Heather, because I too received so much pushback over the years about as a believer.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I even just the other day got an email that was it felt very scathing.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that that wasn't probably a person's intent, but I actually wrote a book called Should Christians Use the Enneagram because I was like, well, I should figure it out myself.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: And this was a growth for me because as a seven, I would just rather reframe and push past and just like forget the details.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: But I took time to explore the details.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what you alluded to is so spot on.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Do we want to use it for good or do we want to use it for harm?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think if good fruit is coming from it, um, judge a tree by its fruit.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're doing pretty good.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: So is it improving your relationship with God?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's probably not from the devil, then yeah, that's not his style.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: That is the one thing division, distraction, discouragement, those are like the D's.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: I always say.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: Is it one of those things?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, these are his tactics.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: My one friend said he's not creative, he's crafty.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: He's crafty.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, so he uses things that are you're already kind of there and he shifts them and he moves them, but he's not he's doesn't not coming up with new ideas of ways to get you.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's right.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so good.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks for letting us explore that a little bit.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, so my friends who are listening, you're like, oh, subtypes, what you know, what are they talking about?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that might be worth a 15-minute call, or maybe I'll be doing some sort of series soon that helps explain a little bit better.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's really an awesome.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: I actually tied into how we relate to in our sexual life, intimacy, also finances and friendships.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's very, very telling in those three really deep, you know, kind of like most valuable things to us.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it explains why we engage differently and why we might be missing each other even more than our personality type, the top aspects of or the motivations, but some of those kind of sub-layers, obviously subtypes, where there's the connection, where's the disconnection, why certain things are frustrating for us in those three different arenas.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I've just found just so much freedom for the women, not only myself, but the women that I've helped coach through some of those things of like, oh, that's it.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and those are some of the things that with spiritual work and contemplative practice and even just the awareness of it, those begin to shift and be in a place that they're feeling healthier and stronger and and thriving in.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, so cool.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: I love that you did that with your friends.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: Really, really neat that you guys did that together.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's always fun to talk about it too, I think, in a group.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: I found that the twos just stopped coming.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: So interesting.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: And were like in denial that it was helpful.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: That is very, very interesting.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Or were they in denial that they were actually a two?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think that too.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think they weren't very aware of themselves.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: It was like the amount of energy and time spent thinking about themselves was uncomfortable.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the concept was uncomfortable, and so they just have coming.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I have definitely found it.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: That is the biggest thing, is because I have done small groups in person and online.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not as much as the personality type that doesn't follow through, but it's when you recognize that you are out of sync in in ways, um, and it can bring a lot of discomfort.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so you have to have the desire to see the change or be open to the change and just acknowledge like it's actually a tool of humility.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I think people who are, you know, banging on this, like Christians are doing something evil, and like, hello, the amount of humility it takes to actually engage with this thing.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Pride, pride is from Satan.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: I promise you, humility does not come from Satan.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, yeah.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: This like non-judgmental observer.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: That's which the coach asks us to be like, observe what's going on, look at your reactions, how are they similar?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: And that to me is straight up recovery.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, yes, 12 step, which is all about showing up and bringing the gospel where you go instead of whatever's wounded or from your past or things that are getting in the way of the good news.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like, no, this is all holy work that's actually furthering the gospel, not getting in the way of it.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man, so good.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I think you and I could get on the soapbox all day long.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, when I saw the questions, I thought, well, no, let's just talk about Enneagram the whole time.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to talk about anything else.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, but I want to know you released your first official traditionally published book, right?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: I have that right.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yes, ma'am.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: This this last fall in October.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to know all about it because for you, it's been a long journey.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: I know this.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: I've followed you long enough.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Listen to your podcast, just know your heart.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: I know, you know, there's some of it began podcast form and then community form.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's a book which takes a lot.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: My friends, unless they're writing a book, they have no clue what it takes to get from concept to book.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: But tell us a little bit about your journey and your experience, because I'd really love to hear it.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: So it actually starts before I started a podcast when I had a blog for three years and an agent, it's actually Ann Voskamp's agent, reached out to me and said, Have you ever considered writing a book?
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: No way.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought, is this real?
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: Is this like a guy from Kenya saying, Gibbs send me a million dollars?
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: I get those two.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so then I, you know, I figured out, yes, it actually is um who he says he is.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so we started working together on a book proposal.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: And it was right after I'd had my fourth kid.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: I had a newborn.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: So he thought, you know, are you sure you want to do this?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: This is a lot of work.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, how hard could writing a book be?
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I write all the time on the blog, just keeping it, right?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I've, you know, got childcare a couple days a week during the summer, and I would go and I'd write, and it just was not clicking.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_02: And then I thought, you know what?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: What if this is a distraction from raising my boys?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: What if this isn't from God?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: What if I'm thinking this is an obedience and I've, you know, in faith, I need to take advantage of this opportunity.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: But what if it's not?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so I stepped away from it and I went and read some books on how to write.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: Then I realized, oh, I'm using time for Facebook and I'm using time for other things.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: I have time.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just maybe not being a good steward of it.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so it doesn't have to take away from my boys.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: I could wake up before them and write, I could write later.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so I worked on it and I thought that we were going to be meeting with publishers in fall of 2018, 2013.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: I know we talked about this time warp, it's recently the time warp thing.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's weird.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so 2013.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: So my youngest was a year and a half, and I got there, and all my friends had meetings, you know, Baker or Bethany House, all different times in the day.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I had a meeting with my agent.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: That's it.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: They had brought copies of the proposals.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'd sent him a copy of my proposal on an email, but hadn't brought any hard copies.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I get to the meeting and we're talking and the football game's on.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: And another side note story for the moms who also are trying to figure out where do I put my energy.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: I used to help host a conference here in Dallas for bloggers called Declare.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: And they were actually having a meeting like out of the corner of my eye.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: I could see them and I could see the energy and the life.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: And we knew it'd just been a great conference we'd just thrown.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: They were planning the next year.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I told them I couldn't do that anymore because I'm going to be writing this book.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm sitting with my agent and he says, You know, I'm sorry I didn't get back to you about your proposal.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I just don't think there's a market for mom books right now.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: The mommy bloggers got kind of picked up and given, and the publishers just aren't picking up mom books right now.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought, oh my goodness, this is death right here.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: And there's life over here.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I made a wrong choice.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I heard Bianca Oltoff speak that weekend, and she was talking about the story of the dry bones in the valley, and God instructing the prophet to Elijah to prophesy over them.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: And then God brings them to life and puts muscle and skin on them.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: And they these corpses start coming alive.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: And he brings life into it.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Okay, God, this feels like death.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: These are my dry bones.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I really don't want to stack them up and walk them around like this skeleton.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm going to make a book happen and force it, I'll self-publish it or whatever.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: I said, I'm going to give this to you.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: And when you want to breathe life into it, let me know.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: And we'll do that.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so a couple of my friends in my mastermind group that I'd known a long time, they had podcasts, my friend Kat Lee and Katie Orr.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: So they helped me start mine that fall.
• 21:07
  unknown: Wow.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: November 11th of 2013.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I just kept doing that.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I wasn't interested in writing a book.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't, it had never been an idea of mine.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: It was the agent that had reached out.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: It was me thinking I'm being disobedient if I didn't write a book.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so then slowly, um, another agent, a friend of mine's agent, she'd reached out.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, you know, that didn't work out for me so great last time.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: That was a lot of time and energy.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: Not really interested in doing that again.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: So she was very patient.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then I was like, you know what?
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe that is something I want to do.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: My dad was a writer and he passed away.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I just want to honor him because he always said I was a great writer, his favorite writer.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: So this is the four coming out.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um I love it.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: beautiful so i thought you know what uh we can do this and worked on the proposal and god was so good because of the podcast already being out the publishers were interested yeah and um it's a whole weird thing that they want you to sell books and their business you know they're funny thing they need to make money pay their people yeah exactly so thankfully was offered a two book deal and I'd proposed a totally different book than the one I wrote and that's actually the one I'm supposed to be writing right now that's due in April.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: Okay yeah I gotcha but when some of the publishers were saying why aren't you writing a don't mom alone book and I thought again four that's too obvious that's not sexy enough.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's like Of course you wrote don't mom alone.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah and then I asked God and God said okay well why don't you apply the concepts in this book you just proposed to yourself and see are you occupying your God given space?
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: Are you doing like where I've assigned you to be have you filled that space and I realized I have over 300 episodes but that's overwhelming for a new mom.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: I can't say go listen to these hours and hours totally so what would I want in something that I could hand her that would multiply my ability to have coffee with her, to encourage her and not necessarily a rehash of the whole podcast, but these general concepts that I've gained over all these years of interviews and it's literally not a how to do motherhood but how to be and what I wish I would have known prior and literally like a big sister saying you know this is what matters this is what doesn't matter this is who matters and I try to do it by myself and I was a big F fail.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: So don't do that.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah so that's the book I got to write it I worried that I would lose my spouse this sounds it's very it's terrible I worried I would lose my spouse in the year of writing it because I've seen so many people write a book and then live out the story and I was like yeah don't I'm alone man I'm setting myself up for a lot of loss.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: But I realized the actual message is about wanting to pull away and not let people in and we I wrote it in a pandemic which I didn't know when I decided to do that.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: Oh for sure.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: I was isolated but I had to choose to reach out to my friends.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: I had to choose to let my small group in and tell them when I was feeling self-doubt I had to choose to invite my mentor in who became my life coach when I got stuck um and she had to speak truth over me.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: I had to let my kids in and stay connected to them.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: And of course God I was completely dependent on him because I didn't have an outline for this book.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't have a concept and so the living out was a full reliance on God and others to actually write the book.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: So that was what I got to do in a pandemic.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: That is amazing Heather I love how it's never this is why I love asking the story because it's never this linear experience.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's the ups and downs there's so many stories behind the story.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think ultimately what you have touched on here of don't mom alone that is a real message and it I know for you and I, we have older kids in those earliers it feels so lonely, so isolating we all got to revisit that scenario for at least a year for a lot of us again whether no matter what age kids we had or even if we had kids we touched on this before I don't think it's natural as natural for a type four to really lean into community or ask help from others and seek out advice and collaborate all of those different elements feel a little bit outside of a a four's natural inclination but you somehow got there.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it's the theme of your podcast it's the theme of this book don't mom alone so along the way for you what kind of benefits have you uncovered in doing motherhood in community reaching outside of yourselves out of yourself and willing to get maybe uncomfortable in the process I think it's been a journey of again like the loss of my dad prior to that ironically before I started the podcast I had a panic attack season a season of depression I was completely isolated.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: I felt so much pressure to be this God centered mom which used to be the name of my blog and not let people in not see where I was failing just do it by myself and that did not work.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: So thankfully God was gracious and so the benefit was this journey of professional counseling celebrate recovery with our small group inner healing prayer these different places that God was so kind to just strip away all of these false cover-ups, this self-preservation piece that I was doing and get beneath it to reveal the truth of who he says I am and my connection to him and my worth and value in him so that these relationships don't have the power I was letting them have.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so their approval and their acceptance or the fear of rejection didn't get to be the boss of me.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so the benefit is being able to be in relationship and show up whole at wholehearted, I should say wholehearted it's bonus if a relationship brings life or if I am accepted.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it hurts to be rejected of course but it's not devastating and it's not driving my interactions to have that fear uh hanging over me.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: So this process and then all of that work and that depth and that vulnerability and those relationships were formed prior to my dad passing away and my mom being really sick and living with us.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I was able to have the people that were already in intimate places in my life be able to meet physical needs, emotional needs, you know, these tangible things that you need when you're going through hard things it would have been too late as we're going through something hard to say okay I better find some really close friends.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: For sure.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: A little bit late.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: So that was God's gift that I did have the breakdown and the I did lean into it to work through what was keeping me from people because I honestly believe most of us know we should yeah have these deep relationships but there's there are things barriers keeping us from them.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so to dig into the why is what I hope this book does.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: Each chapter has like this isolating idea that's you might be believing that you might relate to that keeps you from community.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's really good.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: Heather I think you know probably in that process you identify the coping mechanisms of personality types and those little hangups that we do whether it's related to self-sabotage or fear or the walls that we have built up over time because of hurt.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: The hurt is real like all of us have experienced pain from some sort of community or friendship.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it would be easy to just say forget it not going to try again but I know the overall message for you just whether it's in your podcast or in the book is to keep trying here's why you can keep trying and here are some other ways to motivate yourself to keep trying so keep trying it's worth it because I mean the other benefits like yes it's the inner work and yes my relationship with God is deeper which then makes my in-person relationships better.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: But it benefits my kids if the ultimate goal is I want to have kids who love God, who know themselves who are living their best version inviting other moms into that they speak such life into my kids because they're so for my kids winning I mean I got to experience this the other night our small group came to my son's basketball game and just hearing them all like cheer for him and be for him and show up for him I'm missing out on that or we went I was terrified to ever go on a family trip with other people because on a trip you are seeing the best and the worst guys everyone and we went on this ski trip with a couple families and it was so great to get to be a part of everyone's hard moments and to speak encouragement when I was seeing um friends teaching their little twin girls to ski and it's exhausting and the girls are crying and I'm just keep telling them y'all are being so faithful.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: You are so patient and that just keeps them going.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: And then my oldest son had never skied before and one of the dads was like he was about to quit and one of the dads said yeah I remember my first time was in high school I went with a friend's family and that first day was horrible.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: I fell over and over and over again he said but I went again the second day it was awesome and that just little word that he would hear from him versus me oh yeah he tried again he went the next year he was able to go on a high school ski trip with his friends and have a blast this last year.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it was something that has that literally shifted his whole future experience.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: It got him through the pandemic being able to go on that high school ski trip.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just putting those pieces together now if I had in my fear kept us from going on a trip with other families and letting them see all of our gross parts in fear of rejection I would have robbed my son from these gifts that that fed into his future friendships and and surviving a pandemic as a high schooler.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: What a powerful ripple effect I mean and just even fun to hear you put that together because I think the power of remembrance it's so key and because I know there's oftentimes this thing when we hear someone else's story about community or friendship it's really easy for us to let the comparison trap catch us and go, oh well I wish I had friends and community and blah blah blah but take some time to remember those moments when you did get to do life with community or that thing with another family or that friend experience.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I always say like if you want that have you invited anyone in the last month to anything have you let them see your messy floor and your piles and because if you do it'll be reciprocated they will see you as someone that's okay and we can let the mask down and so that's my encouragement too yeah oh that's so good Heather in order to not mom alone are we willing to be the one to invite others into that journey we're gonna have to go first sometimes and I know it's uncomfortable for some of us some of us it's it's more natural and easy and then also to not get discouraged this is where do not grow weary and discouraged in this keep on with this good work.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: And my thing if you are a believer Jesus did the ultimate uncomfortable vulnerable move and left the comforts of heaven for a baby's body in a time when they were killing babies and he's fully dependent on someone else and fully vulnerable and then also went on a cross fully vulnerable took all the shame and the key is as believers even if we are wounded even if we are rejected even if we take that risk and it's not reciprocated we have a healer who resides in us who can take whatever that wounding was and restore it and renew it.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's not permanent damage on us and so if anyone should be willing to take the risk if anyone should be willing to be vulnerable we who have Christ who's modeled the one another life for us and then the Holy Spirit in us to repair anything that's broken those two things to me are the invitations to try.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: So good Heather on that note I I mean I can't imagine another better way to end and to wrap up and pointing it back to the ultimate good friend whether we're a mom or whether we're hoping to be a mom someday or whether we're becoming an empty nester of where we don't have to do this life alone.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think engaging with that helps us be the kind of friend or be have the eyes to see those who need friendship and propels us to get out of our comfort zone.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: So Heather thank you so much for being a part of this conversation and encouragement and just what you're doing and the work and I bet all my friends who haven't yet been following you or reading your stuff or listening to you they're gonna run on over there and uh click subscribe and just be a part of your community.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: Sweet well thank you for inviting me.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: I was really excited thank you.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: Wasn't that so good?
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: I just love Heather's spirit and like I mentioned I've enjoyed listening to her for a long time because she is a wealth of knowledge and she really does prioritize people even when it's inconvenient.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes maybe you might be resisting the very thing you need the most this conversation and topic makes me think of Hebrews 1211 which if that doesn't immediately pop to mind no problem I always remember the verse but I forget the address but that verse says no discipline seems pleasant at the time.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: However though it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: The way I think that that verse and the topic today connect is sometimes we need to take time away from our to-do list in order to give it to nourishing relationships.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it may feel almost like you're exercising a discipline or having to work hard to form a habit to prioritize people.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's not maybe what you want to do in the moment because the task list feels easier but later friend you will reap a harvest of peace and many other benefits.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a little nugget of wisdom to contemplate today.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: Now remember my friends God is with you as you go about your day with your kids, coworkers, friends fur babies and even your spouse.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: Ask the Lord for his eyes in all you encounter today.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: He will help you powerfully reframe even changing dirty diapers or cooking dinner.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like to connect with you so please reach out to me either on the socials or my website and the links can be found in the show notes.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm praying that you have an encouraging day while you continue to pursue God's perspective purpose and plans for your wholehearted life