Transcript

Pamela Estey · Called to Serve

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Hello and welcome. This is called To Serve, a
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podcast where we share weekly stories from women who've been
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ordained by the Canadian Baptists of Atlantic Canada.
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We have spoken with almost 100 of these pastors, chaplains,
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missionaries and community leaders as we learn what it's
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like to be a woman in ministry. Today you'll hear from Pamela
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Estie. Pamela was ordained in 2005 in
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Canning, Nova Scotia. She is now the intentional
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interim pastor for Saint Margaret's Bay Baptist Church.
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Pamela describes her experience with music ministry, pastoral
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leadership, camp directing and chaplaincy.
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She explains her current interest in addressing trauma in
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church settings and muses on why she finds men and women tend to
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fall into different pastoral roles.
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My name is Pamela Este, so I grew up as part of the
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Pentecostal Assemblies of Newfoundland.
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From birth, I was pretty much a regular attender.
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Before I was old enough, my parents would take me to Sunday
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night service, so I have many memories of my head on my mom's
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lap trying to snooze while someone was preaching.
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And then I was baptized when I was 13 in Stephenville.
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And that was an interesting experience because we had had a
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little mini revival of sorts and there were a whole lot of people
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coming to Christ. And so I was baptized with I
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think 40 or 50 other people and we use the the community
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swimming pool. By the time I hit my teenage
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years, I was very active in the church.
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And when I was 15, I was recruited to be a church
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musician. And so I started playing the
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piano with the church had a lovely grand piano.
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I would go in and we'd have some Deacon leading the service and
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he'd say, let's sing that grand old song and he'd give me two
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words of the title of the song and look at me to play it and
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lead it. So I learned to play by ear in a
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hurry and also learned how to have some music prepared and be
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able to kind of come in with something before they announce
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something. I was actually asked to to do
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music for youth camp. That was quite an experience
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because we had about 1000 teenagers there that week.
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I also, you know, played drums for a women's retreat.
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I also did sound system. So yeah, that just continued
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right up until I graduated high school and then I went off to
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university. I applied to and came to Acadia
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to do a Bachelor of Arts degree. I had a lot of people that were
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disappointed in me because they naturally assumed that I was
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going into ministry. And, you know, I was kind of at
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a point of soul searching and figuring out some things and
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making my faith my own. And so, yeah, everybody was kind
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of disappointed, but you know, I didn't feel a call.
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I ended up getting married just before I finished my
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undergraduate degree. I started working.
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My husband and I had a business and I was also working in a
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nursing home doing private care. And my manager said to me, and
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she said, you've been working in the private nursing home, you've
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been doing all this work, we think you should go and get your
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credentials as a nurse. So I started the process to
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apply to go and take nursing. And the further I got into the
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application process, the less happy I felt.
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It was at that point that I was feeling a strong fall to
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ministry to kind of change direction and move occasionally
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in that direction. And I ran from the call.
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I, I saw what it was like in the lives of ministers and how it
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impacted their lives and their families.
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And it wasn't something that I wanted for myself.
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And I kind of said, God, if you want me to go in the ministry,
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this should have happened when I was single.
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I actually pushed God away and started kind of running the
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opposite direction in some ways until I came to this crisis in
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my life. And I knew that if I continued
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to run from this sense of call that I would never be content.
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I would always be restless. And so I kind of finally gave in
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and said, OK, God, if this is what you want me to do, this is
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what I'm going to do. My husband said Philly Boots.
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Basically he said, if you want to do that, you go and do that.
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And so then I, I went and applied to Acadia to do my MDIF.
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I had to have references, of course.
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So I went to the Pentecostal church in Kentville, NS and I
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remember sitting down and having the conversation with them and
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they said, you know, we, we fully support you in this, but
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you need to realize there are challenges ahead because of you
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being a woman. I know it had been the practice
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of the Pentecostal churches both in in Newfoundland and the POC
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for Canada, that if you were a woman who was married and your
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husband wasn't in ministry, then you weren't going to be
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supported for ordination. It was also a practice that if
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you were single woman and were ordained and then you got
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married to someone who wasn't in ministry, you could lose your
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credentials. So I knew those things.
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It was good for them to just kind of affirm those and remind
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me one thing that was interesting when I applied and
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went to Acadia, one of the first books we read talked about our
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call to ministry and how that call is affirmed.
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And what was interesting for me was that when I did decide to
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respond to the call, I made that decision and did not look for
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the affirmation around me because I wanted it to be
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something that I was doing because I felt like I was called
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to do it, not because everyone else thought it was what I
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should be doing. So I started in the spring of
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2000. I did the introduction to
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Counseling course on halfway through the course, I found that
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I was pregnant. We had been told we couldn't
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have children and, and I've had many miscarriages and so, yeah,
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so that was a surprise. And so then had a difficult
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pregnancy. My son was born in October of
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2000. Then I started full time in the
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fall of 2001. When I'd asked my husband about
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going back because we had an infant.
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His response was when you started going to school and
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taking the courses, it was the most content you've been in a
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long time, so going to support you to do this.
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I found Acadia to be very affirming.
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There wasn't a lot of weight kind of put on gender.
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The one thing I did discover talking to a lot of my peers was
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that for many men, they seem to feel that, you know, the call to
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ministry was it was a choice, you know?
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Yeah, I was called to ministry. So let's let's go do this.
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But by and large, my female peers that I talked to had
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experienced resistance to the call and had fought the call
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because they they knew the challenges.
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You know, in some sense I was thinking about it today that,
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you know, maybe the men got off easy in terms of affirming their
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call to ministry and exploring what that call was because most
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of the women that I talked to had a much more intense kind of
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understanding and feeling of the call.
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And I think also for the women, they really spent a lot of time
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contemplating the impact of ministry on the whole family.
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When a man goes into to ministry, kind of the the wife
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is the freebie that comes along is what it's seen as sometimes,
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right? When a woman goes into the
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ministry, they're not quite sure what to do with their husbands.
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So mine always said he was the pastor's wife.
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My plan had never been to become Baptist.
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They actually told me on my interview that they wouldn't
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convert me. They tried to pair me with the
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Pentecostal church doing internship, and then the deacons
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told the pastor that he was too busy to supervise a student.
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So PAOC said it's OK, you can do your stuff in a Baptist Church
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as long as you still meet those little requirements.
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So that's how I ended up coming Baptist.
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But my first church that I was in was a woman pastor.
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I thought it would be very affirming that the senior pastor
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was a woman, but I actually found that to be a very
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disappointing experience. The senior pastor was a woman
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who had entered ministry after she retired from her career.
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And she had issues with me being a mother of a toddler and trying
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to go to school and trying to do ministry.
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So when I was there part time as a musician, the internship only
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lasted a couple of months. And then she advised me that
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they could no longer afford to pay me as the musician.
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I thought I was going to stay on as, you know, as the pastoral
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intern, the student. And she said no, that that'll be
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over too. And I had asked about being
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involved in in youth and other things and she advised me that
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my ministry should be nursery since I had a small child.
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That's what I should be doing. I felt like there was some
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resentment from her thinking that, you know, I should have
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raised my family first. Also found out that she had
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never actually introduced me to the deacons born the church
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leadership as anything more than someone coming in to play the
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piano. That was very hurtful and very
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unexpected from, you know, another woman in ministry.
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But then I got another internship in Canning at the
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Baptist Church and the minister there was great.
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I went on there as a, as a musician as well as doing my
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internship. You know, he asked me what I
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wanted to do and I said, well, you know, I'm, I'm still trying
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to figure out kind of where I'm going with this ministry thing.
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You know, I'm thinking of counseling in chaplaincy, but I
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have to do a placement in the church.
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Don't think I like preaching, but I think I have to preach
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twice a year as part of my internship.
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But, you know, if you're up for it, can you make me preach once
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a month? And I want to be involved with
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as many different aspects as possible so I can have a better
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understanding of all those those moving.
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He was fantastic. You know, he was supportive of
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what I was doing. I decided that I would continue
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on in the ordination path for the Baptist Church.
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I had an ordination supervisor, another man, and he was
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wonderful. He prepared me for my ordination
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interview. And he said to me, you need to
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know that you will not get a unanimous vote.
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There will be white men from New Brunswick, basically who will
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vote no. Despite the fact that convention
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is affirming of women in ministry and despite the fact
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that they have been told you cannot vote no simply because
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the person is female, you will get no votes.
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So you need to be prepared for that, and you need to be
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prepared for questions about women in ministry.
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I went into ordination examining council, which was led by Lee
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McDonald, who had been the president at ADC when I started.
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He was the one that told me they wouldn't try and convert me.
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So when I walked in, I went, you weren't going to convert me.
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And here I am. I had someone stand up and ask
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me what my intentions were in terms of the Pentecostal church
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and I said today, I'm a Baptist. I feel called in the ministry in
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the Baptist Church. I cannot tell you where I'll be
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called 10/15/20 years down the road, but this is where I am
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right now. I went in, I came out and you
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know, I waited and I had one of the area ministers and his wife
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with me and you know, they were just so, so supportive.
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And then they came back and told me that I had gotten a unanimous
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approval. My supervisor was just elated,
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right? He was so excited, you know, he
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said I he was just impressed with how I did, but just so
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excited that I didn't get dinged for being a woman on that one.
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So I was ordained in 2005. And that was at Canning Baptist
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Church in the Annapolis Valley. I do remember I preached that
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morning about Ezekiel 37. I thought I might be out of the
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church after preaching about the Valley of Dry Bones.
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But no, it was, it was a good service.
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I was there as a student and I continued on as a part time
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doing youth and music. And then I think a year after
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the senior pastor retired. And when the senior pastor
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retired, they had actually voted on me.
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And when they got to the vote, the moderator told them they
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could do whatever they wanted with their ballot, including,
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you know, putting it in their mouth and chewing it up and
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eating it. By virtue of the way the vote
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was presented, I actually didn't get the vote, but I stayed on as
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associate until they could figure out what direction to go
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in the church decided to, to look at resumes and actually
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called someone else to come and preach a call.
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And he came and was talking to me after the service and you
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know, while they were down doing their, their vote or whatnot.
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And he said I don't understand why I am here and why they are
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calling me. He said cuz all they did in the
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interview was talk about you. So, you know, he thought that
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was challenging. He ended up turning down the
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call. They did eventually interview me
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and call me again and do another vote.
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And that time I did get the positive vote.
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What I found out in that process was there were certain people
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who didn't matter how much they liked or didn't like me, they
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couldn't vote for me. I did have one gentleman tell me
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I would never, ever have accepted a woman in ministry, he
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said. But I've experienced your
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ministry. You know, we had an encounter.
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There was some conflict with something and just the way I
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handled it, he said. You know, it was that point that
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I knew that I needed to look past your gender and affirm you.
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So I took on the role as senior pastor in in April of 2007 and I
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did that for a year. And then the 1st of 2008 they
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said we can't afford you. We can only afford a part time
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pastor. So they went from having a
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senior pastor and an associate to all of a sudden we don't have
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money. The chair of the Finance
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Committee and some others basically said, we don't know
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why we have to pay you this amount set out by convention
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because really, you know, you're, you're no better than
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the janitor. And so, you know, we should be
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paying you minimum wage. A lot of the bias came out.
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Some of it came from men, some of it came from women.
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I came to realize that they really didn't want a woman
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minister because I wasn't worth the pay.
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It was fine as long as I was doing youth and children's
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ministry and music and it was OK for me to preach, but they
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didn't want me being the senior pastor.
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As that became apparent, I decided it was time to to move
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out of that ministry. Before I left there, I had
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actually taken on as an interim position the executive director
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of Kingswood Camp, which is a Baptist camp.
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And so I did that for four years.
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Wasn't something I ever saw myself as doing, but I did it.
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I, I enjoyed the preaching or the teaching.
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I enjoyed the the leadership being involved with the campers,
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mentoring the staff and being involved with churches and, and
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that kind of thing. There weren't really any
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questions there. I mean, doesn't matter your camp
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director don't even need to be ordained.
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That was just kind of a, a bonus feature thrown in.
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But I do remember some of the staff pulled me aside one day
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and they said, we need you to help us understand you're an
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ordained minister. And I said yes.
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And they said, how do you live with that every day knowing that
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you are sinning because it's a sin for a woman to be in
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leadership. I had to sit and think about it
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because of course, you know, they had their, their scripture
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references. And I said, women are called to
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leadership in, in many places. You know, you'll, you'll look in
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the Bible, the different places where women are called to
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leadership. And you know, and then I talked
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to them about the call, if God chased me down and wouldn't let
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me go until I responded to this called in ministry, then I can
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only say it's from God. And if it's from God, then who
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are we to put parameters based on the gender?
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And so I don't feel I'm sinning by being a pastor.
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But yeah, I had a had a good time at camp from 2007 to 2010.
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In the same time one of the neighboring churches pastor came
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to me said if you want a place where you can just come and no
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expectations, our church is open.
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They needed a musician and so I ended up at First Cornwallis
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Church. Actually, I was there from
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January of 2009 to August of 2013.
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At First Cornwallis, I was technically the Minister of
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music. I did preach on occasion.
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I did do some Phil and I did youth work and then in 2010 I
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decided to pursue my Doctor of Ministry degree.
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My heart was really doing counseling and and looking at
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chaplaincy work, and that's how I started in chaplaincy.
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They told me there'd be no job for me when I was done my
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training. But a month after I finished my
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training, I was hired to a permanent position.
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So I worked part time for the Capital District Health
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Authority starting in 2012 and then starting in 2014, I also
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worked part time as part of the Baptist Hospital chaplaincy.
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And you know, actually most of the chaplains are, are women.
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And so that was, that was affirmed.
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But both in Halifax and now that I've been at Dartmouth General
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since 2015, I occasionally get things thrown in.
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You know, I, I had someone say to me one day, they said, how do
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you feel knowing that you'll never, ever be ordained or
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affirmed by the church? And I said, actually, I'm not
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Catholic, so that's not a problem.
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But even those that don't agree with women in ministry, for the
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most part, kind of look past that and just see me as someone
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coming to journey alongside of them.
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And now I'm at yet another church at the head of Saint
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Margaret's Bay. And they wanted someone that was
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ordained and, you know, not retired with, you know, 1 foot
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in the grave kind of thing. So that was kind of the way it
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was put to me. This is the most affirming and
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least stressful church I have been in.
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I have been blessed by this church.
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They're actually voting on me next week to take on a position.
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I've offered to be an intentional intern for one year
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to help this church that thought it was going to close, but to
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take a year and and just do some strategic ministry to help them
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to determine what their path forward is.
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So I'm actually excited about that.
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Couple people have said you're crazy.
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What are you doing taking that on?
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But like I said, it's the least stressful church I've I've ever
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been in. I actually enjoy preparing
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sermons and sharing with them. So yeah, I'm probably slowly
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moving myself out of chaplaincy. Part of the reason for that is
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the hospitals seem to be moving us out.
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They're moving more towards focus on physical care, but I'm
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also doing some private consulting and and counseling
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and I'm looking at doing some work with addressing trauma and
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making our churches more trauma sensitive, recognizing that the
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gospel itself is can be traumatic.
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Just even if you look at Jesus crucifixion, I mean, that is a
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trauma all in itself. For some people hearing that
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triggers their, their own trauma and, and their own pain.
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And so the goal is not to sugarcoat the, the plan of
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salvation or anything, but how do we preach and teach in such a
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way that it helps people to kind of align with Christ and see
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Jesus as wow, he also experienced this trauma.
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And then how does he respond to the trauma?
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And then what does that teach me?
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For example, I know some people that that song Good Good Father
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triggers them. And so how do we as as churches
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be sensitive, not to say, let's throw out that song, but taking
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a minute to say, you know, we're talking about God here.
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And we realize that everybody's father is not the same as God.
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Churches need to be a place of healing, not a place that
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further traumatizes people. You know, we've got a cliche or
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a verse or whatever that just kind of helps us not deal with
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issues and just move past them. Of course, the classic is, well,
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you know, it'll be OK. God works everything together
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for good. Yes, but we're jumping from here
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to there and not dealing with the middle piece.
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Women have a different approach and generally a different level
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of compassion. For some of us, it's that
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mothering part of us. Some men are like that as well,
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and some might consider that being sexist or, you know, going
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to traditional understandings of men and women.
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But I, I think what I saw when I was doing my Mdiv that most of
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the men were convinced to go and stay an extra year and do an MA
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so that they could, you know, focus on the academics.
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Men seem to like to be, you know, in those leadership roles.
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And the women, whether it's their calling or just because
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they kind of feel the pressure, tend to like the supporting
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roles. I don't know.
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It could be a different level of humility.
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But by and large, women seem to have a different type of
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ministry than men. We end up engaging in different
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areas of ministry where, you know, we're doing less teaching
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and preaching and more pastoring.
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And, you know, the word pastoring, it means caring for,
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you know, and feeding. And so in some sense, when I
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think of women, to me, they more closely fit that role of of
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pastor or someone that's caregiving.
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A lot of the men more closely fit that role of a teacher or a
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leader. When you look at the bigger
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churches, that's where the men are.
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The women were getting the little churches that the men
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didn't want. Many times, whether it's just
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circumstances in the role we find ourselves in or whether
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there's an actual difference, yeah, I don't know.
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There are going to be challenges as a woman in ministry, but
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there are challenges as a woman in many other locations as well.
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I think that if we pull back from ministry because of those
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challenges, if we pull back because we're not affirmed as
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women, I think that not only do we lose out on what God has
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prepared for us, but others lose out on that as well.
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God has called each person to a ministry that only they can do.
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You think back to Esther, right? No one knew why Esther was in
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the palace, but there was a reason.
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Despite the challenges, if you follow the call, you will have
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contentment knowing that you're where God wants you, and that's
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a lot better than that feeling of running all the time.
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Thank you, Pamela, for sharing your story with the podcast.
25:16
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