Latest / Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps / "Worthless Twink" Tim Abbott: What's Wrong With Influencers

Transcript

"Worthless Twink" Tim Abbott: What's Wrong With Influencers · Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

• 0:00
  Okay humans welcome to the safe space for dangerous ideas, is it dangerous idea for you?
• 0:07
  You build up hundreds of thousands of followers on social media using an amusing slightly offensive
• 0:14
  moniker, the worthless twink.
• 0:17
  And then you decide to ditch it all, branch out on your own and reevaluate your relationship
• 0:21
  to the gay community and to influencing itself to what it's doing to our heads, to social
• 0:27
  media to other influences to the entire community, both the community of influences and of
• 0:32
  gaydom that has been part of your life for so long.
• 0:37
  Tim Abbott is our guest today.
• 0:39
  He rose to superstardom in Australia a few years ago as the worthless twink, a cute,
• 0:45
  pretty gay boy making short funny comedy videos on Instagram.
• 0:49
  He's moving on now and we have a fascinating chat about all the things that he finds
• 0:53
  right and wrong with those communities that he's been part of, why there aren't more
• 0:58
  gays in sport, his issues with gay drug use and promiscuity.
• 1:04
  And yeah, the question of where influencing is taking us all and what we can do about
• 1:08
  it.
• 1:09
  I hope you enjoy as much as I did this chat with the one and only Tim Abbott.
• 1:15
  But that's interesting about your mum having worked for the four seasons.
• 1:25
  So you were traveling around as like a little kid?
• 1:28
  Yeah, we would travel around a lot.
• 1:30
  And staying in incredibly fancy hotels.
• 1:33
  Unknown to me, yeah, incredibly fancy hotels and so what do you mean unknown to you?
• 1:36
  Well, I just thought that's what hotels were.
• 1:39
  Yeah, I didn't just assume that all hotels are, you know, not $800 or nice sweets.
• 1:44
  Exactly.
• 1:45
  She like a fancy senior person, not too sure of her role.
• 1:49
  I know I was a kid, it's just mum's job and so we would just travel around to different
• 1:54
  hotels and it was a lot of fun.
• 1:56
  But she was been working and I mean, I've told her sisters and I would just run a muck
• 2:01
  in the pool and fabulous.
• 2:03
  It was.
• 2:04
  But they enough older than you that they behaved like like mums.
• 2:07
  My oldest sister is seven years older than me, so you're considerably.
• 2:11
  That's right.
• 2:12
  And other one is two years older, so it was kind of like her and then us.
• 2:15
  And was the eldest sister of Stern taskmaster or like the the fun mum who lets you do anything?
• 2:20
  Oh, I think no, she was a lot of fun.
• 2:22
  Yeah, no, she a balance.
• 2:23
  I mean, she took care of us, but then yeah, also it was a lot of fun and taught me a lot.
• 2:27
  So where did you go?
• 2:29
  We went to Malaysia, we went to Thailand, we went to India, where else?
• 2:34
  And is this because your mother was and you were there for a long period of time?
• 2:38
  No, you were just on holiday.
• 2:39
  No, just for a short stance.
• 2:41
  You still get the free discount and can I get it?
• 2:43
  No, no, no, no, no, if I marry you, then do I get the discount?
• 2:48
  Sure would be very unhappy, but that's fine, that's fine.
• 2:51
  We can consider polyamory.
• 2:53
  Yeah, sure.
• 2:54
  I bring nothing to the table in terms of perks, in terms of discounts or anything.
• 2:58
  But if I do, if I can hear of a discount, I can sling you.
• 3:01
  Tell me about it, I'll tell you about it.
• 3:03
  So worthless twink, what happened to worthless twink?
• 3:06
  Oh, they went away.
• 3:07
  Yes, worthless twink is dead, so what's worthless twink?
• 3:10
  Well, as a twink was a meme page that I started in 2020, the first lockdown, and you were
• 3:18
  basically, you were stranded into state, is that right?
• 3:21
  Yes, correct, yes.
• 3:22
  So I, well, to back this up, I was a bit, I was supposed to move to New York in March
• 3:28
  of 2020, and then the embassy, great time, great time, and then the embassy, the US Embassy
• 3:33
  sent me a text saying, Timothy, your visa has been cancelled, Qantas texted me, or email
• 3:37
  to say, my flight's been cancelled.
• 3:39
  And I called my best mate, Sam, who lives up in Darwin, and I'll say, everyone's working
• 3:43
  from home.
• 3:44
  And I was a bit of a COVID denier, not that I didn't think it was real.
• 3:46
  I just thought it was going to be around for four weeks.
• 3:49
  I was like, this will come and go, everyone's working from home, I'll come up to Darwin
• 3:53
  and see you.
• 3:54
  Anyway, so I got in a flight the next day, by the time I get to Darwin, the country goes
• 3:57
  into complete lockdown.
• 3:59
  And I end up spending a year in Darwin.
• 4:02
  And when you say lockdown for non-Australians, what happened was that the borders of the
• 4:06
  states actually closed, so you couldn't get from, it's almost like if in the states,
• 4:10
  all of a sudden you couldn't drive, you could no longer drive from New York to New Jersey,
• 4:15
  like there were literally police.
• 4:17
  Exactly.
• 4:18
  So there was the international border lockdown, and then within that the state border lockdown.
• 4:22
  Yeah, and that enabled some states to just get away, Scott Free, and have no virus whatsoever
• 4:27
  for the entirety of the pandemic, such as...
• 4:30
  Darwin, Darwin.
• 4:31
  So well, not in total.
• 4:32
  And we're in Darwin, we didn't have any cases, and so we were living life as normal for
• 4:36
  an entire year.
• 4:37
  It felt like we were living on Mars, like everything what we were saying in the media was
• 4:41
  just a completely different reality to the reality that we were living.
• 4:44
  Right.
• 4:45
  But...
• 4:46
  Why don't I create an alter ego?
• 4:47
  Well, it was like a pseudonym, right?
• 4:49
  And again, there was a lot of freedom with creating under a name that wasn't yours.
• 4:52
  And I think I was creating a lot of like pro-vaccination memes and stuff like that, because I was obviously
• 4:58
  very for it.
• 4:59
  But obviously, you were anti-COVID, actually.
• 5:02
  No, not anti-COVID.
• 5:04
  I didn't believe that COVID was going to be around for very long.
• 5:06
  Right.
• 5:07
  I was ignorant in that regard.
• 5:09
  I mean, none of us did.
• 5:10
  I thought I was very much like sounding the alarm from an early stage, because I knew people
• 5:15
  who knew enough to be telling me that it was serious, so I was the chicken little before
• 5:20
  everybody else thought it was bad.
• 5:21
  But even I thought it's going to tear through, it's going to be horrendous for a few months,
• 5:27
  and then we'll all dust ourselves off, and it'll be over.
• 5:29
  I didn't really think through, oh, okay, well, if it's a new virus, then presumably not
• 5:34
  everyone is all going to get it at once.
• 5:36
  And so then it's going to just keep on going.
• 5:39
  I just thought we would be the people who were sick for a week, and then it would be over.
• 5:42
  Right.
• 5:43
  But my boss at the time was very like, no, Tim, I think this is going to be a pretty big
• 5:46
  deal.
• 5:47
  And she was right.
• 5:48
  And then...
• 5:49
  She was right.
• 5:50
  The airline was right.
• 5:51
  The USA.
• 5:52
  The embassy was right.
• 5:53
  Everyone was right apart from Wordsless Twink.
• 5:54
  Exactly.
• 5:55
  And so then I was cutting memes, and then it is just evolved from there.
• 6:03
  And then I wasn't even really showing my face at the time, I kind of liked the word
• 6:07
  that I can't pronounce, which is anonymity.
• 6:09
  And anonymity?
• 6:10
  No, no, yeah.
• 6:11
  I can't pronounce.
• 6:12
  And yeah, no, no.
• 6:13
  Can we say you weren't showing your face?
• 6:15
  Is that because you were showing hot bodepix?
• 6:17
  No, no, no, no.
• 6:18
  It wasn't just so big.
• 6:19
  No, no, no.
• 6:20
  It was just...
• 6:21
  No, no, not even.
• 6:23
  It was just like hiding behind the work of the meme.
• 6:25
  So you could say a lot either in writing or in a comical way.
• 6:30
  Right.
• 6:31
  And so I found that great freedom.
• 6:32
  And then I was kind of...
• 6:33
  And what was the gist of the meme?
• 6:35
  What was the orientation?
• 6:36
  You know that someone did in Darwin, who wasn't about being a party boy, who wasn't
• 6:40
  about COVID, who was sort of about Ukraine?
• 6:43
  No, no.
• 6:44
  Predominantly about lockdown, behaviors, COVID, yeah, getting the vaccination, social
• 6:51
  behaviors, that sort of stuff.
• 6:53
  And then that then evolved after lockdown into doing some more event stuff, brand
• 6:58
  work.
• 6:59
  And now it's kind of become this pseudo online being.
• 7:06
  But I draw at the beginning of last, sorry, beginning of last year, yeah, I got rid
• 7:12
  of the title worthless twink.
• 7:15
  Because I won, I didn't like being referred to it as a worthless twink.
• 7:18
  It's a great brand.
• 7:19
  It's a great name.
• 7:20
  It's right.
• 7:21
  It's right.
• 7:22
  But as I was going to more events, like I would show up at an event and like Tim Abbott
• 7:26
  wouldn't be on the list.
• 7:27
  No, the worthless twink would be.
• 7:29
  And that was like a bit humiliating to be like, oh, it's worthless twink on the list,
• 7:33
  yeah.
• 7:34
  And then I just didn't like the association, I didn't like.
• 7:36
  And I mean, you don't plan this, so you don't know where that's going to evolve to.
• 7:40
  So I didn't create it being like, oh, this will eventually become my day job or my
• 7:44
  income or rights.
• 7:45
  Right.
• 7:46
  I know that I probably would have spent a bit more time thinking about the name.
• 7:50
  When did you come up with it?
• 7:51
  Do you remember?
• 7:52
  So it was actually, I used to get called it, I heard some old colleagues who are very
• 7:59
  affectionately, very affectionately.
• 8:00
  They were very sure.
• 8:01
  They were very obsessed with it.
• 8:02
  You don't hear what they're saying about you behind your front back.
• 8:04
  That's what they tell you.
• 8:05
  They tell you it's a fiction.
• 8:06
  Yeah, yeah.
• 8:07
  So they would tell you a dickhead asshole worthless shithead twink.
• 8:10
  To my face.
• 8:11
  Yeah.
• 8:12
  And it's all in good jest.
• 8:13
  Yeah, yeah.
• 8:14
  And action.
• 8:15
  Yeah, they were very obsessed with gay tribe names.
• 8:17
  So when they found out the word twink, they, and this was, these are straight people.
• 8:22
  Yeah, exactly.
• 8:23
  So just the straighties who don't understand what a twink is, what's a twink?
• 8:25
  A twink would be like a young, maybe effeminate or skinny gay boy, which was very much
• 8:32
  me in my early 20s.
• 8:33
  And is there a reference to twinkies?
• 8:35
  No.
• 8:36
  I think that's the end of all.
• 8:38
  Is that the American?
• 8:39
  That's the American bandie that has lots of cream inside.
• 8:41
  So they're sweet, twinks are sweet and full of white.
• 8:45
  Well, I think, and now I'm not even my selfishness, I think that was the original terminology
• 8:52
  of twinks.
• 8:53
  So yes, a young, pretty party boy, horny party boy, sure.
• 8:58
  And was that something that you had, was that a subculture that you had identified
• 9:01
  with previously?
• 9:02
  No, particularly, but they, I think it was the category that I fell into the most at
• 9:07
  the time.
• 9:08
  And were you a party boy?
• 9:09
  No.
• 9:10
  No.
• 9:11
  I've only ever had kind of one, kind of one brief period of like heavy partying.
• 9:18
  And that's when I moved to London in 2018.
• 9:22
  And I'd moved countries and my best friend had just passed away and like I was just partying
• 9:27
  a lot.
• 9:28
  And that was kind of maybe like a six month period.
• 9:31
  Right.
• 9:32
  That's your excuse.
• 9:33
  That was my best friend.
• 9:34
  The best friend passed away?
• 9:35
  Yeah, very suddenly.
• 9:36
  Oh, suicide.
• 9:37
  It was chaos.
• 9:38
  Yeah.
• 9:39
  It was 23 and like, it was just very, very, well, obviously unexpected and well not
• 9:44
  at the end.
• 9:45
  I mean, sometimes there were warning signs, sometimes, yeah, but yeah, really rocked
• 9:49
  me.
• 9:50
  And I think at the time I didn't know how to cope with that other than drinking and
• 9:54
  partying.
• 9:55
  So thankfully, I, yeah, got myself out of that loop.
• 9:59
  Was that a heuriché?
• 10:00
  That was a shame.
• 10:01
  I never stored you.
• 10:02
  Yeah.
• 10:03
  Okay.
• 10:04
  And we didn't hindsight were there any warning signs that you regret not having noticed
• 10:07
  or?
• 10:09
  I was, I was actually unfortunately in India when she passed away, which was also double
• 10:13
  chaos like a most chaotic city as in Mumbai.
• 10:17
  And I was like, this is not where I want to be while I'm grieving, but she, no, certainly
• 10:22
  not.
• 10:23
  And was it, I, I reflect on our final conversation differently now.
• 10:29
  We had, we were having dinner with like a couple days before I left to go to India and
• 10:33
  she was talking about how she wasn't going to uni anymore.
• 10:36
  And she was like, had given up on that dream and she just didn't know what she was going
• 10:39
  to do with her life.
• 10:40
  And I, I, at the time, it wasn't like alarming because you're like, you're 23 and you're changing
• 10:44
  past and whatever.
• 10:45
  But now I look back on it and I was like, I think she had, um, she just resided and just
• 10:50
  surrendered basically.
• 10:51
  Yeah.
• 10:52
  Which is, it's, yeah, it's really sad.
• 10:53
  But it, um, sent me on a different core, course in life, absolutely.
• 10:58
  Had she struggled with mental health issues and depression, yeah, openly as well.
• 11:02
  Yeah.
• 11:03
  Yeah.
• 11:04
  For sure.
• 11:05
  Um, it wasn't a secret.
• 11:06
  But I, again, in the same way that, I want to say it's, it's not common, but it's not
• 11:11
  uncommon now for people to talk about their mental health or mental struggles.
• 11:14
  And so there wasn't any, it, not to an alarming amount from my perspective, any, so, um,
• 11:22
  yeah.
• 11:23
  That was, yeah, seven years ago now, which is, um, it feels like, yes, I, but it feels
• 11:28
  like a lifetime ago on the same.
• 11:29
  Yeah.
• 11:30
  And how do you feel now when you think about young people who are expressing, I don't
• 11:35
  know, mental health problems?
• 11:36
  Do you think we're dealing with it well enough?
• 11:38
  Is it an area that you, I think you're drawn to activism in?
• 11:43
  I think a lot about it, um, particularly having experienced that, that, um, moment.
• 11:50
  Um, I would say social media and sharing a story on social media isn't productive.
• 11:57
  I don't think it's understatement of the year.
• 12:01
  I don't think it's helpful.
• 12:02
  I think sharing maybe, um, tips that have helped you or resources that have helped you
• 12:08
  or things that have gotten you out of a bad time is helpful to others.
• 12:13
  But I don't think there's power and strength in sharing suicidal thoughts online.
• 12:19
  I don't know if that's bold to say, but from my experience, unfortunately for Georgie,
• 12:24
  she had a story days before taking her own life.
• 12:29
  And I think you get a rush of false sense of, you know, everyone cares and then it goes
• 12:35
  away.
• 12:36
  And then you have to deal with the crash of feeling alone and abandoned.
• 12:42
  Um, so I, I think there's certainly a lot of great resources online, but I, I, I never
• 12:48
  want to become, uh, a spokesperson for it because I'm not educated in it.
• 12:52
  Right.
• 12:53
  I'm not a psychiatrist.
• 12:54
  I'm not a psychologist.
• 12:55
  No, but you're very active in social media.
• 12:57
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 12:58
  I've had a personal experience with it.
• 12:59
  Sometimes, yeah, sometimes people will message me stories of struggle and I'm not, um,
• 13:06
  educated enough to cope with that or deal with that all responsible enough about what
• 13:09
  do you do then when they do?
• 13:10
  I send them in the right direction, which is a great story to speak to a professional
• 13:14
  about or speak to your loved ones about, oh friends about because I might be a safe space
• 13:19
  to confine personal information online, but I'm also, I'm not equipped for that.
• 13:23
  Do you mean that strangers will hit you up because they have followers?
• 13:26
  Yeah.
• 13:27
  Exactly.
• 13:28
  It's tricky, isn't it?
• 13:29
  It's tricky.
• 13:30
  But also I, I don't want to become someone's, um, someone a, a stranger's safety net or
• 13:34
  support network.
• 13:35
  No, but there's this weird parasocial relationship that people have with there, with people
• 13:39
  they follow online.
• 13:40
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 13:41
  Yeah, it's all very well to say go and get professional help or talk to friends and family.
• 13:44
  If they've been ostracized from their family, if they don't have a lot of friends and if
• 13:47
  it's, uh, four month wait to see a psychiatrist, let alone the fact that it's.
• 13:53
  It's $300 out of pocket, you know, sometimes the only people who, who, people feel like
• 13:58
  and turn to.
• 13:59
  Absolutely.
• 14:00
  It's worth a swing.
• 14:01
  Absolutely.
• 14:02
  And, and I can't, I can't take on that responsibility for thousands of people.
• 14:05
  I, I can't, um, I can lead by example.
• 14:07
  I can share, uh, yeah, I can lead by example, but I, I, I, I, I don't, and I also, I, I
• 14:15
  don't think it's, um, responsible of me either.
• 14:19
  I, I, I don't think as someone who isn't trained in that area.
• 14:23
  Yeah, yeah.
• 14:24
  I can share my story.
• 14:25
  Sure.
• 14:26
  But, uh, and hopefully maybe someone could learn something from that or take from that,
• 14:29
  but I can't be responsible for everyone's wellbeing.
• 14:32
  And when you say that your friend, Lashaird, her story online, sorry, what, what was that?
• 14:38
  To that depth, it was, um, she had, yeah, been struggling with depression and, um, you
• 14:45
  know, things get better and it was to that tone.
• 14:48
  It was a positive.
• 14:49
  It was a positive.
• 14:50
  Like, you know, keep working, keep forwarding ahead, um, if I only see to go around advice
• 14:56
  in that regard.
• 14:57
  And so when you were, do you remember where you found out, I remember, I'll buy it, minute
• 15:02
  by minute.
• 15:03
  It's, I will never, never forget it.
• 15:05
  Woke it up in the middle of the night, um, to my phone ringing, and it was someone
• 15:08
  there.
• 15:09
  Are you any youth hostel?
• 15:10
  No, I was a, you were in the four seasons.
• 15:11
  Wasn't the four seasons.
• 15:12
  Wasn't the four seasons.
• 15:13
  I was in, I was in a hotel, um, and I was getting a phone call from someone who
• 15:18
  I know, but not very well.
• 15:19
  And so I was like, that's really odd.
• 15:21
  So I, I messaged them and I was like, hey, I'm in India, uh, it's very early in the
• 15:25
  morning.
• 15:26
  Can I call you in the morning?
• 15:27
  And she said, no, call me now.
• 15:29
  So call her back and, uh, she was like, I'm so sorry.
• 15:35
  Um, I didn't want you to say it's on Facebook, but yeah, Georgie's died.
• 15:39
  And I was like, I, I, I, I was speechless.
• 15:43
  And she started crying and then I was like, I'll call you back.
• 15:46
  Or I'll speak to you later.
• 15:47
  Um, and I just remember being in such a state of shock, I didn't ask what the hell
• 15:52
  happened.
• 15:53
  No, no, no, no, I couldn't think.
• 15:55
  I couldn't, I was, I was so shocked.
• 15:57
  I was with a friend at the time who was also in the same hotel room, um, woke her up, or
• 16:02
  she, what was woken up by the phone call, um, told her and I get, I, we were both just
• 16:09
  gobsmacked.
• 16:10
  I, I, I completely shocks.
• 16:11
  And then it wasn't until I got to security to fly home, like the security check in at
• 16:17
  the airport that I completely broke down.
• 16:19
  I could, I think at that point, it still felt like a, felt so far away, it felt so removed
• 16:24
  from it.
• 16:25
  But I knew once I got on that plane, I had to face the reality of the death and we got
• 16:30
  off the plane and went straight to the funeral.
• 16:32
  It was, uh, yeah, it was a whirlwind, but I'll, I'll, I'll never forget.
• 16:37
  It was a very, um, sliding doors for me.
• 16:40
  Yeah.
• 16:41
  Was it a whirlwind from it?
• 16:42
  Heaps, heaps, which is, it was terrible thing to say, but I learned so much from it.
• 16:46
  I, and for the most part, it taught me that I'm not invincible and life isn't forever.
• 16:51
  And I thought, there was a lot of things that I thought I had to have the rest of my life
• 16:53
  to do and go after an experience.
• 16:56
  And then I went, why am I waiting?
• 16:58
  Why am I doing this?
• 16:59
  Mind you, you were already in India, which is a good start, it's not like you were in a
• 17:04
  work a day job, stuck in an office somewhere in, well, so I do, I do, I do quit my job
• 17:08
  after.
• 17:09
  And I, so I moved to London and saw a lot of musical theater and, uh, sort of drink
• 17:14
  all three times, uh, because I was like, what if I died a month?
• 17:17
  Um, but a lot of that, I think that has stuck with me now in terms of like that way of
• 17:23
  being, of living in the now and doing stuff I want to do, um, there's a lot of impulse
• 17:28
  behind that.
• 17:29
  Or not impulse urgency.
• 17:31
  Yeah.
• 17:32
  There's a lot of urgency behind things now because, um, who knows, who knows what is next
• 17:36
  month, the next year.
• 17:37
  Have you struggled with mental health yourself?
• 17:39
  Of course.
• 17:40
  I think, I think that's a very, well, actually, I can't speak for everyone, I think that's
• 17:45
  a very universal experience for gay people.
• 17:48
  I think there's a lot of, I think for me, a deep shame about my sexuality massively.
• 17:54
  Um, and I, I truthfully thought come end of high school.
• 17:57
  It was something that I was going to die, came into myself really.
• 18:02
  Truthfully.
• 18:03
  Yeah.
• 18:04
  Where'd you go to high school?
• 18:05
  I went to Marist in North Sydney, and I had a great time there.
• 18:09
  I had a really good experience at the school.
• 18:10
  Is that a Catholic?
• 18:11
  It's a Catholic school?
• 18:12
  Kind of a Catholic boy school in North Sydney.
• 18:13
  Um, I had a really great experience there.
• 18:16
  It just wasn't that I just, I, the way that I imagined my life with what my knowledge
• 18:24
  of gay culture and gay lifestyle then was like, I was like, I want a wife and I want
• 18:29
  kids.
• 18:30
  And that was the life that I thought you actually wanted that or you thought you
• 18:33
  was both so on.
• 18:34
  No, I wanted that.
• 18:35
  Yeah.
• 18:36
  I wanted that life.
• 18:38
  That was what I imagined for myself, um, the white picket fans, exactly one hundred percent.
• 18:45
  And so, so I think the experience for me coming out is like, you have to marry the person
• 18:53
  that you were kind of pretending to be and then the person that you actually are and then
• 18:57
  figuring out within that what's actually authentic, what's real, what was an act, um,
• 19:05
  you're kind of living a double life.
• 19:07
  It's a, it's a head fuck like, I don't know if that's a shared experience.
• 19:11
  But for me, you're like, obviously, there's a lot of truth in your being, but then there's
• 19:17
  also a lot of false in your being when you're a closeted.
• 19:20
  And so for me coming out, you're then, you kind of left in this wrestle of like what
• 19:26
  part of me is authentically me and sometimes I'm still figuring that out.
• 19:30
  I go, wait, is this, do I think this, do I believe this?
• 19:33
  And did you identify yourself as gay reasonably early?
• 19:36
  Very early.
• 19:37
  Right.
• 19:38
  Extremely early.
• 19:39
  And I knew you were different.
• 19:40
  One hundred percent.
• 19:41
  I knew in private.
• 19:42
  And a Catholic boy's school, aren't they all like jerk and half of each other in the
• 19:46
  world?
• 19:47
  That's a different body.
• 19:48
  I have this image of this kind of weird, like frustrated, homophobic, like homosexual
• 19:55
  kind of vibe among 15 year old boys, what else do they do?
• 20:00
  I mean, I went to a school with girls, so there was a release, so to speak.
• 20:07
  I had a very good time in high school.
• 20:10
  Right.
• 20:11
  So how did you know you were different?
• 20:13
  I knew really early on.
• 20:15
  I mean, probably like when I was like five or six, and I remember, and I know when you're
• 20:19
  five or six, you might know that you are attracted to the late word for it.
• 20:25
  But like the idea that the thing that you feel is different from the way that most people
• 20:29
  experience life is what I'm talking about.
• 20:32
  Yeah.
• 20:33
  And that puts you in a different class of being.
• 20:36
  I never felt different in primary school.
• 20:38
  In primary school, like I was school captain.
• 20:40
  No, pre-puberty you know.
• 20:41
  Yeah.
• 20:42
  And it had an excellent time.
• 20:44
  And high school also had a very good time socially, but I felt different because you
• 20:52
  lose the girls when I went to high school.
• 20:55
  And the, I guess, puberty brings in a whole lot of competitiveness and just naturally,
• 21:00
  I think boys just want to be the best as young boys.
• 21:04
  Well, that was in the case of my school.
• 21:09
  And I felt different because my interests were different.
• 21:13
  Right.
• 21:14
  I didn't feel different as a person and like my morals and values and stuff.
• 21:17
  I felt different because I'm like, why doesn't I want to talk about Glee?
• 21:21
  So you're literally right.
• 21:22
  You were a wimp.
• 21:23
  You were a wimp last week.
• 21:24
  Why don't people obsess over Beyonce and the same way that I do?
• 21:28
  Right.
• 21:29
  And they're all on about Rugby.
• 21:30
  All about Rugby or Victoria Seeker models and all that sort of stuff.
• 21:33
  Right.
• 21:34
  And that's how I felt different.
• 21:35
  I felt different.
• 21:36
  I mean, we're all very nice people and that sort of stuff we all go along really well.
• 21:39
  So less about the erotic and more about your interests, your style.
• 21:43
  Exactly.
• 21:44
  Yeah.
• 21:45
  And so were you mucking around with guys who are now straight?
• 21:50
  I, yeah, I've slept with a lot of boys.
• 21:53
  I mean, in school.
• 21:54
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:55
  And what do they make of that, do you think?
• 21:58
  Do you know?
• 21:59
  I still talk to a couple of them.
• 22:01
  I think, look, I don't want to sit down and have, sorry, not with you,
• 22:05
  but I don't want to sit down with them and talk about who they think they are and whatnot.
• 22:09
  In that moment, they want to have sex with me.
• 22:12
  So that's enough.
• 22:16
  But I think a lot of them may be for younger guys.
• 22:19
  I think they were just horny.
• 22:21
  Some of them, I think some of them just want to have a sexual experience.
• 22:24
  Hmm.
• 22:25
  That's fine.
• 22:26
  Like I, some of them are married now.
• 22:28
  So who knows?
• 22:30
  I mean, they could be struggling.
• 22:32
  They could be battling demons.
• 22:33
  But I think a lot of them may be.
• 22:35
  No, no, no.
• 22:36
  I just think that they have to be.
• 22:37
  I just think that it's an interesting insight into the way that into how simplistic sometimes
• 22:44
  our definitions of gayness are.
• 22:46
  Like we've got, you know, we, it's Madi Gwartime,
• 22:49
  we're encouraged to think both by homophobic religious conservatives
• 22:54
  and also by extremely online pro-gay gay people
• 22:59
  that there are two types of human beings.
• 23:01
  There's the straight people and there's the gay people that might be somebody
• 23:03
  but you know, on the very edges.
• 23:05
  But like basically, there are people who are hardwired to be constitutively attracted towards
• 23:11
  either the same or the opposite sex and repulsed by the reverse.
• 23:15
  Yeah.
• 23:16
  And your experience at Catholic boys school may be complicates that.
• 23:20
  My, my thinking is maybe, I mean, Stephen Fry has spoken about like situational homosexuality
• 23:24
  in terms of like the boarding school experience and like just like horned up boys
• 23:28
  that just want to fuck anything.
• 23:30
  It could be a bit of that, but these boys weren't also deprived of women.
• 23:34
  Yeah.
• 23:35
  So we weren't having sex at school.
• 23:37
  That's right.
• 23:38
  Yeah.
• 23:39
  So like they had as much opportunity to sleep.
• 23:40
  Yes.
• 23:41
  It's a bit different from Stephen Fry case where he's talking about British boarding schools,
• 23:44
  where you're literally...
• 23:45
  Right.
• 23:46
  You're in a kind of a prison.
• 23:47
  Yeah, you're in a, there's no, there is no vagina for, you know, a hundred miles around.
• 23:51
  Yeah, exactly.
• 23:52
  So who knows?
• 23:54
  I think for one of them they were made of good friends, heterosexual.
• 23:57
  So...
• 23:58
  Yeah.
• 23:59
  We talk about it.
• 24:00
  Why?
• 24:01
  Do you think their wives know?
• 24:03
  Probably not.
• 24:05
  My guess is probably not only because...
• 24:08
  Maybe they'd feel threatened by that?
• 24:10
  I don't know.
• 24:11
  Who knows?
• 24:12
  Who knows?
• 24:13
  So you're going to Darwin.
• 24:14
  You've got your worst twink going on.
• 24:16
  And this is...
• 24:19
  And at what point does do you realise this is something that's actually catching fire
• 24:23
  and like becoming more than just a hobby is...
• 24:26
  How does that happen?
• 24:29
  There was one moment where some of my stuff made the news.
• 24:34
  Like that...
• 24:35
  God, old school news.
• 24:36
  Old traditional news.
• 24:37
  The television.
• 24:38
  The TV...
• 24:39
  The TV TV TV TV TV.
• 24:40
  Yeah.
• 24:41
  What was it?
• 24:42
  It was a cathing kim compilation that I'd made.
• 24:44
  And I was a very popular Australian sitcom from the probably 90s or...
• 24:48
  Oh, it was 2000s.
• 24:49
  Oh, it's 2000s.
• 24:50
  Yeah.
• 24:51
  And that was kind of a turning point.
• 24:54
  To be honest, like I'm, I don't...
• 24:57
  Fundamentally, I still feel the same.
• 25:00
  So I it maybe was once it once I quit my day job that probably was it and that was only last year
• 25:07
  So right it's been a couple years in the making, but the last year was when you ditched the
• 25:12
  Brand the meme exactly it happened at the same coincide time
• 25:16
  So I mean I still post memes and stuff, but it's it's a hybrid now absolutely yeah, right
• 25:21
  But I there's some been some very very cool moments that have happened, but
• 25:26
  Yeah, why was the news picking up? Well, they just like here's this funny little guy who's making comedy videos
• 25:32
  Must have been a slow news day
• 25:35
  You're in the portion of the news, which they normally dedicate to like the panda or the zoo
• 25:40
  After all the doom and gloom and war that likes like a
• 25:44
  Baby lion cub has been born
• 25:47
  Don't miss me actually ditch the lion cub. We've got a worthless twink. I feel the like wholesome news
• 25:51
  segment at the end
• 25:53
  And so you're still in Darwin as you're blowing up and becoming an internet for norm. Is that right?
• 25:59
  Yeah, so no, it happened in Darwin happened in Darwin, but what's your job when you say you could?
• 26:04
  Marketing so I first started in television production and then moved into digital marketing
• 26:10
  So there's a synchronicity there
• 26:12
  It's not like you were doing in social with your with brands are coming to you and asking for certainly some content
• 26:17
  Certainly subconsciously and I think that's like a crude knowledge over years where
• 26:22
  When you're doing something you probably don't realize you're learning while doing and then you get to points like this and you're like
• 26:27
  Oh, yeah of that applied practice works really well in this industry absolutely. Yeah
• 26:32
  Particularly when it comes to like maybe interviews or meet like traditional media stuff. Yeah, that sort of
• 26:39
  Experiences played off really well
• 26:41
  In terms of presenting or yeah, podcasting and stuff like that. Yeah, that's been really helpful and so yeah
• 26:47
  At some point you big you basically join the group of influencers in
• 26:52
  Yeah, you join the elite of
• 26:55
  that
• 26:57
  Community shall we say?
• 26:59
  What did you make of them and how did you did you start socializing and I guess you started yeah invited to once you're back in
• 27:04
  Did you move back to Sydney or move back to Sydney? Yeah, once you're back in Sydney then presumably you're getting invited to opening night
• 27:10
  All the big social events and whatnot. Yeah
• 27:14
  Well, we met it. We made it we made it an opening night. Yes of a musical
• 27:19
  Yes, so it's it's a it's a really
• 27:23
  To speak candidly it's a very
• 27:29
  It's a very interesting mix of people because
• 27:33
  Your traditional tact film and sensitive way of putting it and we can become insensitive soon
• 27:39
  The traditional media folk who
• 27:43
  Uh, camera ready
• 27:45
  And have spent their life either in the journalistic like journalism world or presenting world
• 27:50
  They they can riff and talk for days the people that have
• 27:54
  Been born out of their bedroom and have only just had their camera in front of them and might not have any team or any peers
• 28:03
  They develop a lot of
• 28:06
  strange social behaviors
• 28:08
  And online or offline offline. Sorry. And so yeah, you might be thrusted into a room of a high like a blend of all these people
• 28:15
  You've got people that
• 28:17
  You know might be extremely popular online, but can't look you directly in the eye or ask you how your days been and things like that and that was
• 28:25
  Funny to me because it's people that I've
• 28:28
  looked up to or either
• 28:30
  Really enjoyed that content and then yeah, they can't engage with human to human contact right just I
• 28:37
  That's just social behaviors which I find interesting. Do you think that's caused by their dependence on and reliance on
• 28:44
  Social or was it surely? Yeah, surely. I think someone who's chronically online and isn't
• 28:50
  Interacting with people face-to-face
• 28:53
  Well, maybe not. I mean it may be it may be that the industry and that the technology selects for people who
• 28:59
  Are a bit spectra me and don't and don't have good interpersonal skills and so yeah
• 29:04
  comfortable and and seem more relaxed in front of his grain. I absolutely that's so that's so fine. It was just
• 29:11
  Surprising to me. I just wasn't expect it was unexpected absolutely to meet people who
• 29:17
  Come to these events and yeah, I mean apart from the person I want to connect apart from their kind of personal characteristics though
• 29:25
  There's I mean there I find the whole community quite baffling because there are so many different like there were a lot of people who I love in it
• 29:31
  And then there are other people who I don't know from a bar of so but have a lot of followers who I will meet at an event and will just
• 29:39
  Not shut up talking about the most in a and stuff that I don't that's common about right and I'm like
• 29:45
  I can't believe that these people think that this is remotely interesting like it'll just be about like I mean
• 29:52
  Talking about themselves or
• 29:54
  About oh my god. Yeah, I was just on a plane and I realized that like oh my god
• 29:58
  I saw Abby Chatfield and she was on the other side of the plane and like I was wearing this thing
• 30:02
  But she was also wearing these green pants and then I was wearing these green pants as well
• 30:05
  And I was like oh my god she must be going on the wicked premier as well
• 30:07
  But then I realized she wasn't going on the wicked premier
• 30:09
  So she didn't even get an invitation
• 30:11
  But I was the one who got an invitation and Abby didn't get an invitation
• 30:13
  So what's going on there? She was just randomly wearing green pants at the same time
• 30:16
  I was wearing green pants. I thought we're wearing green because a wicked babe anyway
• 30:19
  So and I'm like understanding there in the lobby going I don't know who you are
• 30:24
  There's a lot going on in the world that we could be talking about sure. Yeah. Yeah
• 30:28
  We don't have to be talking about Putin, you know or climate chaos
• 30:32
  But can we meet somewhere in the between Abby Chatfield's green pants and I love Abby
• 30:37
  This is not a shot of Abby is a shot at the person who thinks that she's gonna get some kind of cuedos
• 30:42
  By telling some in a story to me about how she was on the same fucking plane as Abby Chatfield like who gives a fuck
• 30:48
  It's a great impression of a lot of people
• 30:51
  Or they or they talk about metrics. They talk about engagement
• 30:55
  They talk about likes
• 30:56
  It's it's really really odd and I'm not really humoring it
• 31:01
  Much anymore like I just don't find it interesting. I don't find a boring. I find a boring. How have you made that pivot?
• 31:07
  I'm just more far more selective with the events I choose to go to or I show up like just before the
• 31:14
  Stars
• 31:16
  Encrowed mingling or I go actually that's an event. I would take myself to anyway or you know
• 31:22
  And I think that way
• 31:24
  Your meeting probably more like minded people like this ones are having Sydney swans, which is an AFL team
• 31:31
  in Sydney
• 31:32
  They're having an event on Wednesday for their 150th year as a club and I love those events people that you're like an ambassador for them
• 31:39
  I am very very proudly. It's the greatest honor next my name and I love them
• 31:43
  But when you're coming together for a mutual interest
• 31:46
  Those people are great and you're coming there to bond over something that you all love run and they're very chatty very friendly
• 31:53
  Yeah, I love them. Yeah, well speaking of AFL where are the gay AFL players?
• 31:58
  Yeah, I'm not sure your guess is as good as mine. There was a fantastic four corners
• 32:03
  report on that
• 32:05
  For Americans AFL is Aussie rules
• 32:08
  Sometimes it's the very it's a very fast-paced game a lot of running. It's a lot of running great game
• 32:13
  Excellent game, but it's yeah, it's with a and it's with an American football sized foot shaped football
• 32:18
  It's not us talking about soccer as if it was yeah very different game
• 32:23
  But yeah great crossing for them
• 32:26
  Where the gay AFL plays I my perception on it is and what I hear
• 32:33
  Around is that no one wants to be the first and that they don't want it to
• 32:39
  Delineate from their craft and their skill which
• 32:44
  They don't want to be known as the gay AFL player right or the sole gay AFL player. I mean you just shoot at this stage. I
• 32:52
  I understand that viewpoint and I think also I have some balls
• 32:57
  Literally
• 32:59
  I think if the clubs are very accepting the clubs are really really accepting
• 33:03
  I think and I think I can speak for the seniors swan supporters again very accepting
• 33:09
  I yeah
• 33:12
  But I think if they came out as a not a boy band, but in a group they could
• 33:17
  As they're like we'll have a brain goes to a boy band
• 33:21
  Just like that to do a spice girls. Yeah, it could be effective because if they go oh there's five of us none of us have been the first
• 33:28
  We're out we're here, but I think
• 33:33
  I think but these are not people who I mean you could either think about sport as being a conformist team
• 33:38
  Pursuit and therefore maybe it doesn't encourage individualism or you can think about athleticism as like the pinnacle of
• 33:45
  Human endeavor and these are people who ought to not require for people
• 33:50
  Standing beside them in order to do the minimum amount uh to explain you know
• 33:55
  Demonstrate the minimum amount of coverage. Yeah, that people are doing every single day all over the country
• 34:02
  like
• 34:04
  And all kinds of different professions like they're supposed to be shooting for the stars and like being the best of the best will then just man up if
• 34:12
  Uh as fabulous as it would be and as I would of course fully support it
• 34:19
  I
• 34:20
  My perception is they they
• 34:22
  Don't want it to be about them. They're not um
• 34:28
  I would say maybe like a soccer player or maybe a basketball or an NFL player
• 34:32
  Maybe a bit more about the like the brand deals and the sponsorship and the personality off off the field
• 34:37
  Whereas the common NFL player they're not kind of like
• 34:41
  That way inclined. Oh come on. I like I think a few of them like your your body is like as if it's bad
• 34:47
  As if it's like a humility
• 34:50
  It's not a humility, but I think they don't want it to
• 34:52
  And I and I understand that I don't think they want it to detract from the thing that they've dedicated their life to
• 34:57
  I don't that's a very nice way of phrasing cowardice
• 35:01
  No, I like I don't think so I think for them like none of the other players are expected to
• 35:06
  share that side of themselves when playing the sport if it was something that a grandised them and put them up in the status game instead of down
• 35:14
  Like dating a supermodel then they wouldn't be bashful about it. I
• 35:19
  For me the marketing side of me goes wouldn't you want to be the first wouldn't you you'd be on the cover of every magazine
• 35:24
  You'd be have sponsorship deal. Well, you might be too young to remember
• 35:27
  But do you remember when the first NRL in robot mean in robots in robots came out? I mean that was
• 35:33
  A bombshell because that would have been in the 90s. I was in school. Yeah
• 35:37
  Yeah, and I think he's still remains the only professional league player to do and this is a bloke who was your classic man
• 35:45
  Like the archetype of masculinity like built like a brick brick shit. Yeah, it's like mussely
• 35:50
  Uh, a meathead and then came out of the time. It was like yeah, this is pre-game marriages. It's a pre-like it was still
• 35:57
  I have a sexuality is still illegal in some states. It was um
• 36:04
  This isn't defending the afel at all. I think we're I would obviously welcome it with open arms
• 36:09
  I would love to be the first wag
• 36:12
  At the brown line. I promise you I I should be a part of the package deal you come out you get to
• 36:18
  But it's not protecting them anyway. I just understand both side of the coin. I think one
• 36:22
  They've dedicated the whole life to a sport and they want that focus to be on the sport their talent their craft
• 36:27
  The other side is maybe
• 36:30
  Yeah, they they don't they don't want to be the first right um, but even for me as
• 36:36
  You know colorful and flamboyant as I can be it was a huge struggle for me and I wasn't in the public eye
• 36:40
  I why didn't have a club of a thousand supporters looking at me or hundred sorry a hundred thousand supporters looking at me or you know
• 36:48
  That pressure would feel immense and a lot of these boys are young. Yeah, they're 18. That's true to 23
• 36:53
  Like they are very presumably all of their peers kind of know
• 36:56
  You would assume. Yeah, they're probably a lot of open secrets that were
• 37:00
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and I mean do you think we're just comparing up actually your experience of being in a Catholic
• 37:06
  Boy school do you know when you came out? Do you think that it was news to your friends? No, it was very insultingly not surprised
• 37:12
  I remember the first two friends I called and they're actually a Sam Smith concert. I was like guys. I'm gay
• 37:20
  And they were like that's great. We'll touch you later
• 37:23
  And I was like
• 37:24
  It's not the response I was expecting. What is it? I think we can just say
• 37:29
  No, you suspect his gay comes out you should not say what a family member of mine said as well
• 37:37
  Oh, you're finally coming out. Yeah, it's not yeah, I know that you're trying to diminish it
• 37:42
  I like I know that the sentiment is good. I'm gonna say like it's not a big deal
• 37:46
  I don't care
• 37:47
  You know you could have done it years ago, but to you it feels like the biggest
• 37:51
  It most important. Yeah, it's also like
• 37:54
  Okay, great your gay dad's fabulous. You want a fucking golf clap for that?
• 37:58
  Congratulations, like yeah, you picked it maybe a bit more than other people did
• 38:02
  But like it's not this this particular moment is not all about you sure and in hindsight
• 38:06
  I wasn't doing a fabulous job of hiding
• 38:10
  That was a lot of writing on the walls. Yeah, particularly around like interest and stuff
• 38:15
  But yeah, I for these guys like
• 38:18
  I really really hope it's soon because there's there's not
• 38:23
  One
• 38:24
  So it'll take yeah, it would be a very brave thing to do because to be the first you could imagine would be
• 38:30
  I've got guts and and so just getting back to you to you when you can say that it was hard for you to come out
• 38:35
  What was hard about it if you sort of knew that everybody knew?
• 38:38
  I it wasn't I it wasn't that I didn't think people wouldn't accept me that was never my fear. I
• 38:44
  I
• 38:46
  I think there was just a lot of sadness and surrendering to that life that I was never going to live
• 38:50
  That white picket fence thing and that was sad to me as a as a young person because there were no
• 38:56
  representations of gay people having families at the time zero and still to this day very little
• 39:01
  I am doing my bit and I I applaud you and I I've spoken to Sean about it
• 39:05
  And I commend you so much because I speak about this frequently about representation and
• 39:12
  First of all, it's very little and when they when it is
• 39:16
  We're dying of AIDS. We're partying
• 39:19
  Yeah, do you know what I mean? Like the representation representation that we do get is very very limited to the
• 39:26
  Gay experience. I would love I would love to see a happy healthy successful gay person
• 39:33
  Like in a mainstream movie or television and that be it and
• 39:37
  And that be their plot or we have had that for a few decades now. Have we?
• 39:41
  I mean, I'm in terms of like
• 39:44
  I can't think of any
• 39:46
  Any famous gay people. No, sorry. No, no, no. So like as a as a narrative of the plot
• 39:51
  You know, like sorry like in terms of like we've had your will and graces and stuff
• 39:56
  And that's a great example. Yeah
• 39:59
  It's few and far between though. I think I think when we are on television
• 40:02
  There was that not very good romantic comedy that was directed by what's his face?
• 40:06
  The year of robes. Yeah. Yeah, that was last year. He said that it was
• 40:12
  It was because it was a gay romantic comedy, but it may also just be because it was not a very good film
• 40:17
  I take your point right the normalization of the of the gay experience rather than it being a queer film or a
• 40:23
  Integrated yeah, and I talk about this a lot with my friends. What I want to see is like I would love to see
• 40:30
  Um, what's the industry? Well, let's fire fighters. Sure
• 40:34
  Uh, five
• 40:35
  Just for the homo runners isn't here. Right. Okay. I mean, you've got a picturing a calendar a wall calendar with shirtless fire fighters
• 40:43
  No, I what I'm imagining is like your fire department
• 40:48
  Who are fighting the bushfires in Australia and one of them happens to go home to his husband and two kids and that be it
• 40:55
  Yeah, right
• 40:56
  That's not the plot driver the plot driver is there fighting against the huge bushfires in the Australian outback or something
• 41:01
  Yeah, and that's where I go. Oh, we've really we've we've made it right we've integrated into the mainstream as opposed to
• 41:07
  I saw all of our strangers the other way. Have you seen that not yet put it on the list? It's beautiful
• 41:11
  But it's yeah, it's beautiful, but again, it's another
• 41:14
  Gay trauma film of like right right a lot of drug use yeah loneliness yeah parents unapproving and I was like
• 41:21
  It's beautiful, but again, I'm like
• 41:24
  Yeah, but we are in this moment aren't we have like kind of victimization and
• 41:30
  microaggressions being the the currency of the day like it's if you people or for everybody for every month for every minority community
• 41:37
  I mean if you if you pitch a movie or a TV show that's about how uncomplicated and and fun it is to
• 41:45
  You know to be socially active in 2024 right
• 41:51
  No, it's not gonna get anywhere, but if you talk about how difficult it is to be a queer woman of color
• 41:56
  That's you know people are gonna pay attention. Yeah sad isn't it the people love watching people struggle like
• 42:02
  Yeah, I mean, it's kind of sad as thing hasn't yeah, it's like uh
• 42:05
  There's almost an oppression Olympics where everyone's fighting to be the most oppressed
• 42:11
  community and
• 42:12
  the
• 42:13
  somewhat justifiable guilt of the
• 42:16
  Straight white male gatekeepers of culture who runs studios and television networks and stuff. I think are
• 42:23
  Maybe overreacting and making it harder for I mean that
• 42:26
  That film that you're proposing I sort of normalized
• 42:30
  Film that's just about something where there's just a gay person in the background who has a normal life
• 42:35
  As there was a front as well, you know like as that was going through the process of being of development
• 42:41
  I'm pretty sure that these days given how familiar I am with the entertainment industry in Australia and the US
• 42:48
  There would be many choke points at which they would say
• 42:51
  Can't we turn up the gay thing?
• 42:52
  He should have some kind of trauma. He should have he should have a religious uncle who's gonna who's who's he's estranged from
• 42:58
  You know who used to molest him. Yeah, you want to create you're gonna want to create the drama
• 43:02
  And the kind of drama that you're gonna want to create will be through the prism of a social justice narrative about minorities being
• 43:10
  oppressed and besieged
• 43:12
  By you're very correct. You're very correct
• 43:14
  But I would hope that the the the struggle would lie in the external of say the bushfire. Yeah, and that's what I'm trying to get to and not the struggle because I think
• 43:26
  I think it could be it could hinder
• 43:30
  People accepting who they fully are because of what they see
• 43:33
  The gay experience to be well
• 43:35
  We're in Maddie graph festival time at the moment the biggest gay and lesbian festival in the world. Does that help or hinder what you're talking about
• 43:43
  I was really nervous last night
• 43:47
  Because I was I really really really want to be authentic today
• 43:52
  Um
• 43:54
  But I'm I'm and this is I'm you know uncomfortable conversations
• 43:57
  um
• 44:00
  This year I'm doing something different
• 44:01
  I'm celebrating pride by taking myself to western australia rottenest
• 44:06
  um
• 44:06
  Beautiful island of beautiful island
• 44:09
  Wanted to celebrate queerness and pride in a way that was authentic to me with quakas with quakas of course with my book
• 44:18
  uh pace um and
• 44:21
  As we've warmed up to Maddie graph season. I feel
• 44:24
  anxious and sick even talking about it um
• 44:28
  And I'm gonna do my best to elaborate on why
• 44:32
  um
• 44:36
  I think the Maddie graph organization the cine gay and lesbian Maddie graph organization to be official and the parade hold
• 44:42
  Incredible significance for the community. There's no denying that it played a huge role in
• 44:48
  Myself acceptance when I was younger to be able to see
• 44:53
  Liberated queer people in a safe space
• 44:57
  There's no denying that and I think that still plays the role for a lot of people who are recently coming out and you know
• 45:04
  And allies are like I think I think it's really important
• 45:08
  where my
• 45:10
  Subscription to that starts and ends is probably there and everything that I see in the periphery and around it um
• 45:19
  The bendering um and the high volume of drug use um and promiscuity
• 45:27
  Really makes me upset and
• 45:30
  I'm upset it makes me upset makes me really upset and
• 45:35
  Because to me I look at that and I go like um
• 45:40
  One I don't think it's healthy
• 45:42
  To the extent in which it's done. I think partying can be done in a healthy manner. What I see I think is very done in a very unhealthy manner
• 45:50
  um
• 45:52
  And it also just hinders me because I look at the people that have fought for this
• 45:56
  The 78ers and all the other queer activists um in Australia and I'm like is this what they fought for
• 46:05
  I'm not sure
• 46:06
  I it doesn't resonate with me in the slightest. I know I'm a non-drinker um
• 46:11
  Even as a drinker. I would still go to these events
• 46:14
  And feel incredibly isolated and ostracized and lonely and I was like and that's me as a
• 46:21
  Skinny rich white boy. I can't even imagine what someone of color or other minorities would feel on top of that um
• 46:28
  And I don't know why the carry on occurs
• 46:34
  I don't I and it's only to me isn't how I want to celebrate my pride or celebrate my queerness in terms of getting
• 46:42
  absolutely throttles
• 46:44
  um
• 46:46
  Into a blitteron um
• 46:50
  uh
• 46:52
  Don't think they've been trying in the past few years to make it both more diverse and more family friendly
• 46:58
  You've seen a lot of imaging around uh, you know
• 47:02
  Diversity around different kinds of communities being having loads that like the
• 47:08
  Kind of the cliche of Madagrall all being for white go-go-boys. Uh, yeah for the worthless twinks of the world has been somewhat um
• 47:17
  I mean they're trying to expand
• 47:19
  It's it's it's not so much about it. It's certainly not sorry. It's certainly not about the appearance and diversity
• 47:25
  It's the behaviors that are concerning to me um because I can't think of really many other hetero equivalents other than like a mad
• 47:34
  Mondays or a box party weekend um
• 47:38
  And you mean where there's like a celebration of getting totally smashed
• 47:44
  Beyond the parade I'm I yeah separating the parade is after hearing about people that are
• 47:49
  going like partying for two weeks straight
• 47:53
  And partying to levels of complete danger and I don't kind of all in Rio and like, you know
• 48:00
  The Berlin summer park love festivals wherever one takes ecstasy for a week. Yeah sure
• 48:05
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
• 48:13
  I
• 48:15
  Don't um, and I think that's what part of this trip is about to kind of reconcile with my detachment and disconnect from these events
• 48:22
  You're literally going as far away in Australia as
• 48:26
  Pretty possible. I just down into the Indian ocean. Yeah, I went to a like a queer only event a couple months ago and
• 48:34
  I couldn't tell you how I'm sorry. I could tell you how unsafe I felt
• 48:38
  I felt so uncomfortable. I felt so unsafe and the irony was unsafe
• 48:43
  unsafe in terms of being
• 48:45
  Grabbed on the arse and being watched that it's it's it's terribly uncomfortable, right and
• 48:52
  Like I guess a dramatic irony is that like I once you know
• 48:57
  I experienced great community at the church in school and after school and I experienced great sense of community
• 49:04
  In the gym that I go to in Rose Bay with a bunch of straight boys
• 49:08
  um, and I just have never felt that sense of community within the community. Right
• 49:15
  And and what I mean by that is like um
• 49:18
  People that have your back people that have your best interest at heart people that want you to succeed and thrive
• 49:24
  And I feel like it's a complete opposite the experience that I experienced. I'm speaking purely for me is
• 49:31
  People don't want the best for you people um, are trying to either
• 49:38
  spread gossip create gossip
• 49:41
  Fuck your boyfriend fuck your ex boyfriend
• 49:43
  and um
• 49:46
  And badmouth you every bit of online hate I've ever received has been from a gay man
• 49:50
  I've never received hate from a woman, which is the majority of my following my my following's majority women like 70 70 75%
• 49:57
  Every time I get critiqued criticism hate. It's always from a gay man. What are they saying?
• 50:01
  Are they commenting on my looks how I talk my opinion
• 50:04
  um, whatever um, yeah um, isn't that come from anything? Oh, I mean to psychoanalyze that I think it's projection sure
• 50:13
  um
• 50:14
  But I find that really sad. I find that really sad that we don't want to
• 50:19
  As a community boost one another up. I don't see that. I mean do you I don't know if you want to share that
• 50:24
  Yeah, I mean there with there is uh, I mean there yes some of the worst some of the most sexist and like
• 50:34
  deranged offensive people I've ever met are
• 50:38
  gay guys they can be caddy and horny and bitter
• 50:42
  But at the same time, I wonder whether or not
• 50:46
  I mean that's coming from obviously a place of some sort of trauma
• 50:49
  And that's coming from a community normalization of ways of dealing with that trauma that are used to use humor and promiscuity and drugs to
• 51:00
  you know
• 51:02
  To solve whatever
• 51:04
  Injury there is whatever emotional injury exists there um, I mean it the impediment to the white picket fence that you wanted when you thought that you were gonna get married
• 51:15
  Is partly that trauma and then partly I mean I thought you were gonna say that one of the things about Mardi Gras is
• 51:24
  It does continue to promote the idea that
• 51:29
  Gayness is a very different and distinct
• 51:32
  Thing that that is worth turning the volume up on that and I think it's
• 51:39
  Sorry, all these people are fabulous like I there's this isn't a well not a lot of them a lot of them. Sorry. Yeah, yeah
• 51:45
  This isn't a critique on
• 51:48
  femininity or expressiveness. I think all of that is excellent and great and
• 51:53
  um
• 51:55
  Though it does perpetuate the narrative that gays must be and do the most to be valid in this community and I just
• 52:04
  Is this not enough is my predestrian ordinary self not enough to be valid or do I need to have it?
• 52:11
  Are we playing a numbers game of how many sequence how or how many people I can sleep with right?
• 52:16
  Or how many drugs can I take it's it's incredibly competitive and
• 52:21
  um
• 52:24
  I've kind of given up and I heard a story last week and I'm I'll I heard a story last week of someone
• 52:31
  um
• 52:34
  And I was so let down this is a sinny gay. I was so let down
• 52:38
  Bye-bye like what I'd heard
• 52:41
  I didn't want to do it anymore
• 52:44
  I almost like I'm fuck this I'm celibate like I'm like what were you hearing?
• 52:48
  I
• 52:51
  Something that they had done to their boyfriend
• 52:53
  um involving someone else
• 52:56
  And I and I and from my perspective I was like they're supposed to be one of the good ones. They're one of the people that I thought was
• 53:02
  Like a good person in this mix and I I was so disgusted and disarmed by that I was like
• 53:08
  Oh, what the fuck is going on pull your head in and were they telling you out of a sense of pride? Yeah
• 53:14
  Like here's what I was looking at away with boasting
• 53:18
  And oh, it's like fuck this. I like I was so mad and I was
• 53:23
  Oh, fuck me like I
• 53:26
  I think because it's such a
• 53:28
  Concentrated group of people right if you look at the hetero world who make up 90% or whatever the kind of statistics of people
• 53:35
  you have that
• 53:36
  blend of light and dark and I'm sure this happens in the straight world
• 53:40
  But when you have such a mix sorry when a constant concentrated mix um
• 53:46
  I
• 53:48
  I want to be proven wrong. It feels like you're just hanging out with the wrong groups again
• 53:52
  I do I do my own in my place and we're a six-year-old twins playing very awesome very very hot very boring
• 54:01
  I love it boring I
• 54:03
  And for context I live in Darlinghurst, which is probably the most concentrated
• 54:06
  Part of Sydney of gay men probably one of the gayest neighborhoods in the world
• 54:12
  What in a sentence. Yes, absolutely. So what I'm experiencing and what I'm exposed to is probably the
• 54:18
  um
• 54:20
  Yeah, it's the it's the it's the sharp end of people acting out because they've come from all over
• 54:25
  Australia to this haven and it's it's honestly it's the same in you know
• 54:30
  Chelsea in New York City or
• 54:32
  San Francisco people come from all over because they know that these people these places are havens or West Hollywood sure and they
• 54:38
  Get whatever they need to get out of this system out of this system there that doesn't mean that there isn't like a silent
• 54:45
  Majority that's that's the bottom of the iceberg and it's just getting on with life and and and that's what
• 54:54
  That's what I want to hear more of and I hope today. This is this is a personal experience
• 54:59
  This is my experience. I hope it's not offensive and I'm probably sure that people living in my area would probably agree with it
• 55:06
  But back to the sense of community like there were three people that killed themselves in my suburb last year
• 55:12
  Three in my suburb and I'm like that doesn't reflect to me a strong sense of community
• 55:16
  Like we're doing something wrong. We're doing something wrong here where people
• 55:22
  Aren't there for one another people don't want to protect this
• 55:26
  um because
• 55:29
  Yeah
• 55:31
  It's a competition
• 55:33
  So what's the solution go to right nest island?
• 55:37
  I think
• 55:38
  To me the right nest island thing was
• 55:41
  One being true to myself and going what do I want to do if I if I could roll the dice and say what's the best case scenario
• 55:48
  It's right nest island. So let's go make that happen
• 55:50
  But I hope I really hope that I live my what my life
• 55:55
  In a way that again leads by example and leads by action and not by playing into that because by me
• 56:01
  Being considerate when
• 56:03
  I either leave these events or don't attend these events or don't play into the gossip or drama
• 56:08
  That is me making an active decision that I'm like that's as much as I can do I don't have enough
• 56:13
  It sounds like you did you ever like it because you said you want a big party person
• 56:17
  I've never had the problem that you have being surrounded by this can that by that sub community because I'm not that interested in it frankly
• 56:24
  And so I'd not tempted to yeah around myself with it
• 56:28
  So I've tended to only socialize with people I like yeah, and
• 56:33
  There's never been the pool to get me into the superficial glib
• 56:37
  spiteful caddy yeah
• 56:40
  That's fantastic and that but like it's I haven't had to work at it
• 56:43
  Just as I haven't had to work at the white picket fence
• 56:45
  I mean I sometimes people I was joking early when I said like I'm doing my bit because sometimes people will be like
• 56:50
  Oh, you know, I'm so grateful to especially older gay guy
• 56:52
  Yeah, I'm so grateful to you for like just living such a normal
• 56:57
  Life right as if this is something that I'm doing out of the goodness of my heart for other people
• 57:01
  Like I'm just living my life true and they I mean I appreciate the sentiment
• 57:07
  But to them it's so
• 57:09
  What the way that I live is would have been so impossible right 30 years ago let alone 50 years ago
• 57:16
  That it's
• 57:18
  Touching to them, but I'm not doing it out of some sense of great courage
• 57:22
  I'm just doing it because this is my life my life if that makes sense
• 57:26
  So is the next step for you like to get married and have the white picket fence and have children or is that a bridge too far?
• 57:33
  Uh, it's it's certainly a goal of mine, but I just say before you move on
• 57:37
  I I do think without probably the knowing it is incredibly important for me
• 57:42
  I don't know about others, but for me to see
• 57:45
  Families in the gay world is incredibly important. So whether you like it or not
• 57:49
  It's
• 57:51
  It's a donations can also be sent to my sub stack. Yeah, I find actually compensate absolutely well. Absolutely well
• 57:58
  It's incredibly important. It's certainly a goal of mine. Yeah, I've just turned 30 and I would hope in the next 10 years
• 58:03
  That I would yeah be able to get married and have kids if I can find someone that aligns to those
• 58:09
  Values and goals like I do
• 58:11
  Yeah, I would love to be a parent to whatever capacity I can be you're an uncle now right now
• 58:16
  I'm very happy to be an uncle and loving an uncle and all the upsides none of the responsibility all the cuteness and none of the
• 58:23
  Yeah, never
• 58:26
  You got a lot of games a lot of video games a lot of talking about dinosaurs and sharks
• 58:35
  But I think as we get to
• 58:39
  pride
• 58:41
  Particularly like the responsibility for the younger queer people who might be their first year or it might be
• 58:47
  They've been a spectator before but now it's their first evening out. I think we have great responsibility to show them how
• 58:54
  How happy and healthy it can be to turn this into a positive
• 58:57
  I think there are a lot of people out there who are doing that bit who are showing
• 59:01
  Showing up and going how you can be a doctor a lawyer or a gardener or a firefighter or whatever the profession is
• 59:08
  And be queer and be happy and be in a monogamous relationship if that's your thing and have kids and
• 59:13
  All that sort of stuff. I think it's really important and
• 59:16
  I'm not taking advantage of their youth. I want to talk to you about social media and what it's doing to our brains
• 59:20
  Yeah, before we before I let you out of here
• 59:22
  If people will listen to the free podcast then I will thank you for being here and this can be the end
• 59:26
  And if they want to subscribe they can go to uncomfortable conversations dot sub stack dot com to hear the rest of the the episode and to get extra bonus content
• 59:34
  So you continue to produce material on social media. Yeah, you don't do it as worthless
• 59:39
  Twing. Yeah
• 59:40
  Do you worry about the impact that it's having for us all to be
• 59:44
  Gazing at our phones and consuming algorithmically curated content
• 59:49
  Oh, I could talk about this for full day. Yes. I mean the short answer of it. Absolutely