Latest / How to Be an Adult / About Addiction, with Marc Lewis (Ep. 16, pt. 1 of 2)

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About Addiction, with Marc Lewis (Ep. 16, pt. 1 of 2) · How to Be an Adult

• 0:00
  When I'm trying to get someone to stop
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  using alcohol or heroin
• 0:04
  to kind of resolve that inner debate or
• 0:07
  ambiguity in the climate. Addiction I understand since
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  I had it myself in my 20s. I
• 0:11
  struggled with an opiate addiction. It seems like
• 0:14
  we've all accepted the idea that we can't
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  just be, and we've always gotta do or
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  consume something, or else we're not Welcome to
• 0:22
  How to be an Adult, a podcast created
• 0:24
  by the practitioners at the Morpheus Clinic For
• 0:26
  Hypnosis in Toronto, Canada. This is a show
• 0:29
  for people just like you who've inadvertently become
• 0:31
  adults
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  and don't know what to do about it.
• 0:34
  I'm Luke Chao, and today I'm joined by
• 0:36
  a very special guest, Mark Lewis,
• 0:39
  author of best selling books like the Biology
• 0:42
  of Desire.
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  He's formerly a professor at the University of
• 0:46
  Toronto.
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  He's a cognitive scientist and a neuroscientist and
• 0:49
  a psychotherapist in private practice.
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  He's the author of close to 100 articles
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  about development of psychology and especially to the
• 0:58
  public
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  the field of addiction.
• 1:01
  More specifically,
• 1:03
  he advocates
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  against the medical model of addiction that I
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  think we can agree disempowers
• 1:10
  the people it's supposed to help.
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  So Mark welcome aboard. Thank you. You're welcome.
• 1:16
  Thank you. Let's begin with this. Would you
• 1:18
  like you who are me
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  to try to summarize your views on addiction
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  in a couple of sentences?
• 1:24
  So so generally, what I have been writing
• 1:27
  about and arguing for for years now,
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  almost 10 years,
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  is the idea that
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  rather than think of addiction as,
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  a disease, a a brain disease, a pathology
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  per se. Think of it as,
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  a psychological habit, a cognitive habit, a very
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  strongly emotional habit, a habit which is
• 1:51
  motivated by intense emotions and therefore becomes deeply
• 1:54
  ingrained, deeply entrenched,
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  And partly for that reason, it's extremely hard
• 1:59
  to break even though you certainly understand at
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  some level that it's not doing you any
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  good and in fact might be making your
• 2:06
  life into a horrible mess, might become extremely
• 2:09
  boring and destructive in in various ways.
• 2:12
  And trying to understand what's the value of
• 2:16
  substance use or other kinds of addictive practices
• 2:19
  that make it,
• 2:21
  hard to give up, not only because it's
• 2:22
  a habit, but also because it's doing something
• 2:24
  for you. Something that you're not able to
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  do as well,
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  or as,
• 2:30
  reliably in the rest of your life. So
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  really looking at it from the point of
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  view of the science, the psychology, but also
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  from the person's point of view, the person
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  who is using substances
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  and having a hard time stopping. Well, all
• 2:42
  of us who have even a
• 2:45
  light addiction to our phones or to social
• 2:47
  media,
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  let alone something like alcohol or cigarettes or
• 2:51
  gambling,
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  your explanation of addiction seems just simply intuitive.
• 2:55
  It matches
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  so many people's actual lived experience
• 3:00
  Mhmm. Of what it's like to to to
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  find it impossible to put on your phone
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  or to
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  tell yourself
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  erroneously that you need a drink just because
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  you're going through a breakup when actually what
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  you need is something like love instead.
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  How did it end up being
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  that the predominant
• 3:17
  model of addiction is a disease model,
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  which is so counterintuitive,
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  not just to me as a hypnotherapist or
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  to you as a psychotherapist and a scientist,
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  but to, I think, even members of the
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  public
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  whose experiences of addiction are are not
• 3:33
  one where they become some kind of fiend
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  that's controlled by some kind of demon. I
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  would hope not. Yes. No. There was a
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  time in the 19 thirties, forties, fifties when
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  that was in fact the kind of public,
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  vision, the optics, the idea that addiction is
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  like a fiend. Mhmm. And and it it
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  was,
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  represented by, you know,
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  pictures of people doing
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  horrible back things or seeing their shadows in
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  the background where they're playing with needles and
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  so forth. And often in those days, black
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  people. People who had,
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  for whom
• 4:08
  institutional racism was already making some pretty strong
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  negative points. Mhmm. And here's another thing that
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  they're doing. Yep. So there's all that. But,
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  you know, in answer to your question, I
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  think
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  the idea that addiction's a disease, it wasn't
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  motivated by ill intent. It was motivated by,
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  I think,
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  a positive wish to take the blame, the
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  the the stigma, the responsibility
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  off of the shoulders of addicts
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  and rather to say, hey. It's not really
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  their fault. They don't mean it.
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  Okay. So how do you do that? Well,
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  one way to do it is by saying
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  they've got a real problem. Let's call it
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  a disease because we know the people who
• 4:47
  have diseases aren't responsible for whatever it is.
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  Mhmm. And so that was a way to
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  try to make it easier
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  to not be
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  cornered and persecuted for the
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  activities that went into addiction. Well, it seems
• 5:00
  almost like
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  if a kid's got their hand in the
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  cookie jar again
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  Yeah. And by their own free will, they
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  put their hand in the cookie jar and
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  then the very compassionate
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  overly empathic
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  dad or mom says,
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  oh, no, son. It's okay for you to
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  eat all those cookies. It's not your fault.
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  It's my fault, not yours Mhmm. That you
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  got your hand in cookie jar. Doesn't that
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  seem to stunt a person's development?
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  Well, it certainly takes the responsibility
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  away. It does. Yes. So in that respect,
• 5:34
  yeah.
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  It does. So Which for a 4 year
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  old is not a bad thing. Because, like,
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  what we advocate for for kind of, you
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  know, recognition
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  that
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  each of us is the captain of our
• 5:46
  own ships.
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  Right? And it's true. We don't control the
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  winds or the waves. So later, we're gonna
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  talk about how, for example, disability or poverty
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  might impact one's ability
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  to cope with life and perhaps susceptibility
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  to to addiction. Mhmm. So we don't control
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  everything. It's not like we can each independently
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  just be an island. That's for sure. But
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  at the same time, it's
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  the very opposite is not true either. It's
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  not like we completely lack agency. Right. And
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  there almost seems to be this implication
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  in a lot of the discourse around the
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  disease model of addiction. Mhmm. That
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  an addict
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  in a more modern version of the fiend
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  lacks agency.
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  Mhmm. Did you perceive the same thing? Or
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  Yeah. That's pretty close. Yeah. In fact, when
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  I give talks, I often show a slide
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  that
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  presents a billboard on the side of the
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  highway in Massachusetts. I think it is showing
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  5 or 6 people who look
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  moderately
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  content but not very happy
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  and the slogan is,
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  it's a disease. It's not a how does
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  it go? It's not a choice. It's a
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  disease.
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  So what they're saying, you know, the subtext
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  is clearly that, you know, it's not our
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  fault. Mhmm. And they're looking kind of like,
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  well, it's too bad this happens. This is
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  really a drag, but, hey, it happens.
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  Well, it's also kind of the view
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  underlined
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  by AA
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  where one of the the 12 steps or
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  12 tenets is that you have to kind
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  of,
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  acknowledge
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  or admit that you've lost control over the
• 7:21
  addiction and that you gotta give yourself up
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  to a higher power. That's right. And that's
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  never quite sat well with me because, at
• 7:28
  least in my experience, we're working with my
• 7:30
  clients to primarily primarily to quit smoking, but
• 7:33
  also to, you know, to stop overeating food
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  or to not drink so much. Right. The
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  experience seems to be the more I have
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  my client take agency,
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  the better the outcomes are. Yeah. Whereas if
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  they just kinda give themselves up to the
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  addiction, to the feelings, to the impulses,
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  that seems very counterproductive
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  to the goals that they have.
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  Yeah. How the heck is it that AA
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  and the disease model
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  have become such popular models of how addiction
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  works when we're on the same page. And
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  I think a lot of our listeners in
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  their own experiences, even even if they've never,
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  like, used hard drugs, in their own experiences,
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  it seems like
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  they they do have choice and it's detrimental
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  to deny
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  that choice that they each have.
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  So I argue that a lot and I
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  talk about how a sense of efficacy
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  of self empowerment can be a very, very
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  powerful tool in overcoming addiction.
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  And and to put it simply, it's like,
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  I'm really sick of this. This this is
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  a shitty life, you know, life experience. I
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  don't like this. I don't wanna do this
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  anymore. I'm gonna make it. I'm gonna stop
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  it. And how do I do that? Well,
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  let me see. I could go see a
• 8:41
  therapist. I could do this or that. I
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  could become involved in other activities. I could
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  make other friends. I could become involved in
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  in other social,
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  contexts.
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  And one way or another, they find a
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  way. And the statistics show very clearly that
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  most people who are addicted to anything,
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  including heroin,
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  or these days, Fentanyl, I suppose,
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  do in fact
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  stop. Mhmm. I was gonna say recover because
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  that's the coin of the realm, but I
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  don't like the word recover because it's got
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  this very strong medical
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  ring to it. But they do stop and
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  they stop,
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  mostly without the help of any kind of
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  formal treatment. In fact, the conventional
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  rehab setting, rehab and addiction treatment centers
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  have a very notorious history of not working
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  well. Costing a lot of money and the
• 9:27
  revolving doors that, you know, means that you're
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  gonna be back again in 6 months or
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  a year or 2 years and so sorry,
• 9:33
  guy. Mhmm. Wish we wish we could help.
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  There's almost this cruel irony
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  that
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  the practices, the paradigms, the philosophies
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  that make the most money
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  are the ones that are disseminated most widely
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  and often end up being researched more most
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  completely or at least publicized most completely. Publicized.
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  Yeah.
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  And the practices
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  that are impossible to monetize like quitting cold
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  turkey
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  seem to get no publicity
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  and then no research money.
• 10:06
  Right. And it can be cold turkey or
• 10:08
  it can be gradual. There's an awful lot
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  of ways to overcome addiction.
• 10:12
  Sometimes, you know, it's it's complete abstinence. Sometimes
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  it's not. Sometimes it's controlled use. Sometimes it's
• 10:17
  gradually decreasing Yep. Tapering use. But I think
• 10:20
  we have to be careful about,
• 10:22
  you know, the pointing of the finger here.
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  AA doesn't make any money. AA is
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  famous because it's free. Mhmm. And it's been
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  around since the thirties and,
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  it's extremely
• 10:36
  useful and attractive to people who can't afford,
• 10:39
  any kind of formal
• 10:41
  medically oriented treatment.
• 10:43
  So that's where they go. And AA does
• 10:46
  work for some people. I mean, the, you
• 10:48
  know, the the estimates are anywhere from 5%
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  to 35 or 40%. Mhmm. That's not too
• 10:53
  terrible.
• 10:54
  Mhmm. But 5% is not very good. I
• 10:56
  mean, a lot depends on context. The the
• 10:59
  nature of the group, the makeup of the
• 11:00
  group, the relationship with the sponsor, the kind
• 11:03
  of drug, the kind of other societal,
• 11:07
  factors that you alluded to,
• 11:10
  you know, which might might include economic and
• 11:12
  social and prejudicial and race racism and all
• 11:15
  kinds of things.
• 11:16
  But anyway, long story short, AA
• 11:19
  sometimes works. And
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  AA doesn't fit with a disease model perfectly
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  either. It was kind of a strange marriage.
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  So AA came came along the idea that
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  you can't make it go away. You can't
• 11:31
  make it stop. That is that you have
• 11:33
  to admit that from the, you know, from
• 11:35
  the get go. However, you can control it
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  and you need to control it and you
• 11:39
  must control it. Like if you're a diabetic,
• 11:41
  you need to take your insulin. Mhmm. Okay?
• 11:43
  So there's that.
• 11:45
  But
• 11:46
  but also the disease model, you know, the
• 11:49
  implication that this is something that needs to
• 11:51
  be treated
• 11:52
  by a medical establishment
• 11:54
  and can be addressed with certain drugs, with
• 11:56
  certain pharmaceuticals, for methadone and Suboxone, and so
• 12:00
  on and so forth. Naltrexone
• 12:02
  is now a big deal. So, you know,
• 12:03
  that doesn't fit with the philosophy of AA
• 12:05
  very well at all. Mhmm. And a lot
• 12:07
  of what treatment centers do and have done
• 12:09
  for the last 50 or 75 years or
• 12:11
  so have been to kind of merge the
• 12:14
  2. The 12 step approach on the one
• 12:16
  hand, cognitively, behaviorally,
• 12:19
  and also the idea of being in a
• 12:21
  group, the idea of fellowship.
• 12:23
  Really important.
• 12:24
  Fellowship. It's got nothing to do with the
• 12:26
  disease model. You're not gonna do any better
• 12:28
  if you're with a group of fellow diabetics.
• 12:30
  Mhmm. Right? I can take your insulin. Yeah.
• 12:33
  But but AA, the fellowship idea in AA
• 12:36
  is really fundamental. It's really intrinsic to how
• 12:38
  it works. So so somehow, this kind of
• 12:40
  forced marriage took place in in
• 12:45
  rehab centers that sprang up all over the
• 12:47
  US, especially in the fifties sixties seventies,
• 12:50
  merge these two models together
• 12:52
  and tried to make a kind of coherent
• 12:56
  integration between the 2. Right. Well, my my
• 12:59
  read of AA
• 13:01
  is that
• 13:02
  it works
• 13:03
  despite
• 13:05
  each member having to kind of deny responsibility
• 13:08
  or give up agency. Mhmm. It doesn't work
• 13:10
  because of that. It works because of the
• 13:12
  fellowship that you mentioned Mhmm. And the social
• 13:14
  support.
• 13:15
  Mhmm. One kind of mental model of addiction
• 13:17
  I'm kinda playing around with inside my head
• 13:20
  is that whatever it is that gives people
• 13:22
  that that kind of dopamine hit, which I'm
• 13:24
  sure is oversimplified, but whatever gives them that
• 13:26
  nice feeling. Mhmm.
• 13:28
  It's it's a poor substitute
• 13:31
  for
• 13:32
  the authentic
• 13:33
  kind of connection and camaraderie,
• 13:35
  even affection and love Yeah. That we get
• 13:38
  socially. This is why the opioid crisis in
• 13:40
  the US is so oftenly found
• 13:42
  among lonely rural men. Mhmm. It it's because
• 13:46
  if if they had loving families, if they
• 13:48
  had lots of of friends Mhmm. They'd be
• 13:51
  less susceptible to addiction. Yeah. And AA kinda
• 13:55
  gives people that sense of community and fellowship
• 13:59
  and camaraderie
• 14:01
  that, well, unfortunately, methadone does not. Right. And
• 14:04
  then methadone kind of, you know, hits the
• 14:06
  neurotransmitters
• 14:07
  correctly.
• 14:08
  Yeah. And the fellowship, you know, just kinda
• 14:11
  might do that obliquely.
• 14:13
  Yes. So that's I don't know how educated
• 14:15
  that reading of AA is, but, you know,
• 14:17
  at least from my perspective, that's kind of
• 14:19
  how I interpret how how it works.
• 14:22
  I think that's a big part of it.
• 14:23
  Yeah. I think that's not a bad way
• 14:25
  of putting it. And the idea of fellowship,
• 14:27
  camaraderie,
• 14:28
  and,
• 14:29
  feeling cared for, feeling that sense of belonging
• 14:32
  really is fundamental. Yeah. And for any form
• 14:35
  of addiction,
• 14:37
  you know, I think it was put very
• 14:38
  simply by Johann Hari. Do you know who
• 14:41
  Johann Hari wrote a book called Chasing the
• 14:43
  Scream, which is a wonderful book,
• 14:45
  about the war on drugs. Mhmm. And Chasing
• 14:48
  the Scream
• 14:49
  pertains to,
• 14:51
  what was his name? The the first guy
• 14:53
  who was the head of the DEA, the
• 14:55
  drug enforcement agency in the US, heard some
• 14:58
  woman screaming down the hall. She was a
• 14:59
  morphine addict and I suppose she was coming
• 15:01
  off morphine and she was screaming and he
• 15:03
  was chasing the scream. He was going to
• 15:05
  put a stop to this this kind of
• 15:06
  stuff. Right?
• 15:08
  Anyway, whatever. It's a wonderful book. It's a
• 15:10
  beautiful narrative, and what Yohan Hari says and
• 15:13
  this is,
• 15:15
  this is highlighted in his TED talk. So
• 15:17
  if you don't have time for the book,
• 15:18
  you should go get to the TED talk.
• 15:20
  Johann Hari, j o h a n n
• 15:24
  h a r I. And what he says
• 15:26
  is the opposite of addiction is not sobriety.
• 15:29
  The opposite of addiction is connection.
• 15:32
  So there it is. I'm completely in agreement.
• 15:35
  Yeah.
• 15:36
  So, yeah, in a way, most addictions
• 15:39
  and even addictions,
• 15:40
  you know, we can sort of understand with
• 15:42
  opioids and alcohol,
• 15:44
  they do connect with opioid receptors and help
• 15:47
  us to feel more relaxed and more comfy
• 15:49
  and cozy. That's an addiction I understand since
• 15:52
  I had it myself in my twenties. I
• 15:53
  struggled with an opioid addiction for years.
• 15:57
  But even people who are addicted to cigarettes,
• 16:00
  to tobacco, or psycho stimulants, cocaine, or methamphetamine,
• 16:05
  Although it's not cozy and comforting per se,
• 16:08
  it does make you feel that you belong
• 16:10
  with or to
• 16:12
  a a drug, really. This is my familiar
• 16:15
  experience. This is my world which I can
• 16:18
  go into whenever I want and feel taken
• 16:20
  care of and feel safe, you know, and
• 16:22
  that's a big deal.
• 16:23
  And, of course, that is indeed,
• 16:26
  an alternative. It's a substitute for feeling cared
• 16:29
  for or feeling like you belong with a
• 16:31
  social or familial. And it's always a poor
• 16:34
  substitute because cigarettes can never love you. No.
• 16:37
  Even a even a dog, a cat can
• 16:40
  love you. Yes. Right? And, of course, a
• 16:42
  friend, a partner, a child by the way.
• 16:44
  I don't know about cats. No. No. I
• 16:45
  I definitely do know about cats.
• 16:48
  But but, like, even like a hamster. Right?
• 16:50
  Even a hamster
• 16:51
  can like cozy up next to you Yes.
• 16:53
  And cuddling. Yeah. And a hamster therefore is
• 16:56
  superior to a cigarette.
• 16:58
  Yeah. I mean, I know what you're saying.
• 17:00
  Yeah. Yeah. Well, so I I work with
• 17:02
  a lot of smokers. At this point, I'm
• 17:04
  not even surprised if it's over a1000.
• 17:06
  And so frequently,
• 17:08
  I hear that cigarettes give companionship. Uh-huh. Cigarettes
• 17:12
  give
• 17:13
  my client a sense that
• 17:15
  they have a friend and then quitting smoking
• 17:19
  almost feels like they're betraying a friend or
• 17:22
  abandoning a friend. Or abandoning. Yes. That's why
• 17:25
  I really have to make the point that
• 17:27
  your friends are not trying to kill you.
• 17:30
  But cigarettes aren't trying to kill you.
• 17:33
  Well, I mean,
• 17:35
  the the the the the We anthropomorphize it
• 17:38
  and say, yeah. Well, in fact, yeah, they're
• 17:40
  really bad for you, and they are going
• 17:41
  to increase your chances of dying from various
• 17:43
  diseases for sure, but they're not trying to
• 17:46
  get So it's fair to to give all
• 17:48
  the agency
• 17:49
  to the human being Yeah. In the equation.
• 17:51
  I know you agree with that. And yeah.
• 17:53
  Yeah. So you're right. I am anthropomorphizing cigarettes,
• 17:56
  but when my client
• 17:57
  anthropomorphize
• 17:58
  a cigarette Yeah. But describe them by describing
• 18:01
  them as a friend. I mean, we must
• 18:03
  further that analogy
• 18:04
  For sure. By painting,
• 18:06
  you know, the the feelings that they get
• 18:09
  from tobacco as a treacherous,
• 18:12
  traitorous kind of friendship and not actually the
• 18:15
  real thing.
• 18:16
  Yeah. I know. You and I have talked
• 18:18
  about this before a few times, and I
• 18:20
  think we agree,
• 18:21
  in a lot of ways. I think there's
• 18:23
  an awful lot of overlap between our perspectives,
• 18:25
  but it's not total overlap because I think
• 18:28
  you feel much more absolute about that than
• 18:30
  I do.
• 18:31
  And I think, for example, of
• 18:33
  a good friend of mine named Sean Shelley.
• 18:35
  He,
• 18:36
  he struggled with his own addiction in Cape
• 18:39
  Town, South Africa,
• 18:41
  and he's fine with me saying that. He
• 18:43
  he talks about it all the time. He
• 18:45
  after he gave up, on crystal meth, he
• 18:49
  got his PhD, became, involved in all kinds
• 18:52
  of,
• 18:53
  agencies and bodies that were trying to help
• 18:55
  people who had addiction problems throughout Africa. He
• 18:58
  actually served on the United Nations, Committee For
• 19:00
  Drug Reform. Mhmm. He's done a lot of
• 19:03
  wonderful work and, you know, came a long
• 19:04
  way, so to speak. However, he he talks
• 19:07
  about what, for example, smoking heroin does for
• 19:11
  young black men in Cape Town, and it's
• 19:13
  not evil, and it's not, you know, it's
• 19:16
  not,
• 19:17
  what's the word, malicious or malevolent.
• 19:20
  It's rather it's a social habit that does
• 19:23
  involve a chemical influx, but it's also something
• 19:26
  they do together
• 19:27
  makes them feel
• 19:30
  like, well, we talk about alcohol as being
• 19:32
  a social lubricant.
• 19:34
  Like, there's something to that. Right? Yeah. And
• 19:36
  opioids are also a social lubricant. In fact,
• 19:39
  opioids, when you give opioids to rats and
• 19:41
  mice, they,
• 19:43
  they have more fun together. They play more.
• 19:46
  They really do. Yeah. So, you know, opioids
• 19:48
  soften edges. Yes. Okay. So let me explain
• 19:51
  the absolutism.
• 19:52
  It's actually more in language than it is
• 19:55
  in thought. Okay. Because
• 19:57
  I'm not a prohibitionist. Yeah. I I actually
• 20:00
  have
• 20:00
  no,
• 20:02
  disdain for and
• 20:05
  I don't think that drugs are all bad.
• 20:08
  In fact, I think that the resurgence of
• 20:11
  psychedelics recently,
• 20:12
  as a possible treatment for PTSD, for example,
• 20:15
  is a very good thing. Mhmm. And Ketamine,
• 20:18
  for example, could be used recreationally or it
• 20:20
  could be used therapeutically. Right. And, of course,
• 20:23
  cocaine and heroin originally had therapeutic uses.
• 20:26
  So, like, I'm not I'm not one to,
• 20:28
  like, demonize drugs. Right. The reason for for
• 20:31
  the
• 20:32
  absolutest speech is because for better or for
• 20:35
  worse,
• 20:36
  the less room you'll leave for doubt when
• 20:38
  you're communicating,
• 20:39
  the stronger the point you make. So I
• 20:41
  guess,
• 20:42
  you know, for this kind of academic conversation,
• 20:44
  you know, I'll just add in the asterisk
• 20:47
  Yeah. That, you know, I'm not I'm not,
• 20:49
  like, against
• 20:52
  the
• 20:53
  responsible and informed
• 20:55
  use of drugs in a way that's legal
• 20:57
  for your jurisdiction. Mhmm.
• 20:59
  Okay.
• 21:00
  But yeah. When I'm when I'm trying to
• 21:02
  get someone to quit smoking,
• 21:05
  then I do have to speak in an
• 21:07
  absolutest way. I believe that. Or when I'm
• 21:09
  trying to get someone to stop using alcohol
• 21:12
  or heroin
• 21:13
  to kind of resolve the inner debate or
• 21:16
  ambiguity in the client's mind. Mhmm. You know,
• 21:18
  I'd as a hypnotherapist,
• 21:19
  I kind of had to give one clear,
• 21:21
  unambiguous,
• 21:22
  neatly packaged idea Mhmm. As simplistic as the
• 21:25
  idea would be if we kind of try
• 21:27
  to unpack it in more of a
• 21:30
  scholarly kind of context. I can see that.
• 21:34
  I mean, as a clinical psychologist, I often,
• 21:37
  you know, will use words and ideas also
• 21:39
  in a way that's intended to help people
• 21:42
  think and feel a little bit differently about
• 21:44
  whatever it is they're engaged in that seems
• 21:46
  to be harming them or blocking them. And,
• 21:49
  no, you're right. It's not an academic,
• 21:51
  you know, point that you're making. You're not
• 21:52
  trying to make a foolproof argument proof point.
• 21:56
  So it's a different yeah. Well, I kinda
• 21:57
  feel like keeping in mind that, you know,
• 21:59
  some of our listeners are are kind of,
• 22:01
  they're kinda tuning in because they they can't
• 22:03
  afford,
• 22:04
  hypnotherapy or psychotherapy. Right. They they can't, like,
• 22:07
  afford rehab for sure. Mhmm.
• 22:10
  So, yeah. To kind of see,
• 22:12
  let's say, tobacco Mhmm. As
• 22:14
  a trader and not a friend is gonna
• 22:17
  help in one's journey to to quit smoking.
• 22:19
  Yeah. I can do that. Yeah. So that
• 22:21
  that that that I'm not actually as black
• 22:23
  and white of a thinker as to what
• 22:24
  I communicate. That's true. Yeah.
• 22:27
  Yeah. And, certainly, I'm not anti drug. I
• 22:29
  mean, there's, like, uses for almost every drug.
• 22:32
  And I wouldn't I don't even draw a
• 22:33
  line between what you might call recreational and
• 22:36
  therapeutic use
• 22:38
  because
• 22:38
  there is no clear line Mhmm. And especially
• 22:40
  with psychedelics.
• 22:42
  I mean, psychedelics, if you wanna think of
• 22:43
  it as treatment, think of it as a
• 22:44
  treatment for life in our current right?
• 22:48
  The cosmo follows an age because psychedelics help
• 22:51
  you connect with nature and think about your
• 22:54
  role in the universe. And Mhmm. Do you
• 22:55
  wanna call that treatment or it's not treatment
• 22:58
  or, recreational, it's something else. Something's hard to
• 23:01
  define. Yeah. Well, in previous episodes, we we
• 23:04
  we've kind of
• 23:05
  spoken against the mind body dichotomy Mhmm. Where
• 23:09
  it's kind of this artificial
• 23:11
  divide
• 23:12
  to say we can, like, just treat the
• 23:14
  mind Mhmm. Or we treat the body independently
• 23:16
  of the mind. Well, no. Yeah.
• 23:18
  You know, like, anything that you put in
• 23:20
  the body, it's gonna affect your mind. And
• 23:23
  if you think in certain ways, it's gonna
• 23:25
  affect the body too. Yes.
• 23:27
  So yeah. We're,
• 23:29
  you know, each one individual organism
• 23:31
  at its, you know, kind of a fictitious
• 23:34
  concept
• 23:34
  to divide mind and body. Yeah. I agree.
• 23:37
  Yeah. It's way too neat. Yes. It doesn't
• 23:40
  really make much sense if you think about
• 23:41
  it a little bit more. Yeah. So
• 23:44
  you've been, kind of trying to challenge the
• 23:47
  the medical model of addiction Mhmm. And with
• 23:49
  some success, considering how many books you've sold,
• 23:52
  Mhmm.
• 23:53
  I'm sure that along the way you've gotten
• 23:55
  some pushback. I'm sure along the way you've
• 23:57
  kinda rubbed people with a profit motive in
• 23:59
  the wrong way.
• 24:01
  So how's this journey been like? How successful
• 24:03
  have you been in kind of like helping
• 24:05
  others to overcome the the the the stigma
• 24:07
  of drug use or the idea that it
• 24:10
  is a disease as opposed to a learned
• 24:13
  habit? Mhmm.
• 24:15
  There's been certainly pushback.
• 24:18
  Generally speaking, I think my
• 24:20
  my argument, my view, my perspective has been
• 24:23
  taken well. And a lot of a lot
• 24:25
  of people are saying, yeah, that makes sense.
• 24:27
  Okay. Got it. I'm not the only one
• 24:30
  who takes this position. There's there's quite a
• 24:32
  number of other people who sort of addiction
• 24:35
  scholars or addiction,
• 24:37
  might might be doing research in addiction or
• 24:39
  might be doing clinical practice related to addiction
• 24:42
  who also feel that the medical model has
• 24:44
  gone in the wrong direction.
• 24:46
  And
• 24:47
  so the pushback that we have gotten, some
• 24:50
  of that come it comes from all different
• 24:51
  sources. For example, whenever you kind of perturb
• 24:54
  a societal habit, you know, you're gonna get
• 24:56
  some kind of crap from somewhere, from maybe
• 24:58
  from many places. So one source of that
• 25:01
  for me was in the US, especially where
• 25:04
  I give talks sometimes,
• 25:06
  it's like people say,
• 25:07
  if we don't call it a disease, then
• 25:09
  we can't get medical insurance to cover the
• 25:11
  cost of treatment.
• 25:13
  Yeah.
• 25:14
  Sorry about that. That's actually
• 25:16
  a political and economic issue. It is not
• 25:19
  a psychological issue. It's certainly not a scientific
• 25:22
  issue or a biological issue. You wanna talk
• 25:24
  about your health care system? Yeah. It's pretty
• 25:27
  stuff. The, American health care system obviously epitomizes
• 25:30
  certain real problems where profit and,
• 25:33
  healthcare,
• 25:34
  you know, meet head to head, not in
• 25:37
  a very satisfactory way.
• 25:39
  So, yeah,
• 25:40
  Sorry about that. You need a name for
• 25:42
  this, so then you can throw money at
• 25:45
  it or get the insurance companies to throw
• 25:47
  money at it. Same thing for a lot
• 25:49
  of other things by the way,
• 25:50
  racism.
• 25:51
  Now, we have anti racism. So now, we
• 25:54
  can support
• 25:56
  research dollars for anti racism or clinical or
• 25:59
  institutional practices
• 26:01
  for anti racism because we've given it a
• 26:03
  title. Terrific.
• 26:04
  Bullying. Again, anti bullying programs.
• 26:07
  Domestic abuse. Right? Child abuse, all kinds of
• 26:10
  abuse has now gotten very much highlighted and
• 26:13
  entitled and now it sorry. I don't mean
• 26:16
  entitled. I mean, given a title, given a
• 26:19
  category
• 26:19
  heading label
• 26:21
  makes it easier to pinpoint it and to
• 26:23
  say, okay. This is how we need to
• 26:26
  deal with it. Whether it comes from a
• 26:28
  source of contributions, whether it's monetary, whether it's
• 26:31
  governmental, institutional, legal, whatever it is. It helps
• 26:34
  you, you know, focus on the problem and
• 26:36
  try to do something. But so in that
• 26:38
  respect, I see the argument.
• 26:40
  Right. If I take away the label, what
• 26:41
  are we gonna call it? How are we
• 26:43
  gonna deal with it? Well,
• 26:45
  like you and I have been talking about,
• 26:47
  it's a much broader issue than just a
• 26:49
  person's
• 26:50
  relationship to particular substances or activities.
• 26:54
  Whether it's booze, whether it's drugs, whether it's
• 26:56
  gambling,
• 26:57
  whether it's porn, whether it's phone use, whether
• 27:00
  it's Internet use.
• 27:01
  There are so many kinds of addictive activities
• 27:04
  and,
• 27:06
  it's completely intermingled with the rest of our
• 27:08
  psychological and social lives. Mhmm. It isn't a
• 27:11
  distinct phenomenon or a distinct category. So don't
• 27:14
  even try. Mhmm. There's better ways to understand
• 27:17
  it. Yep.
• 27:19
  One pattern I've noticed
• 27:21
  among people So, you know, you you mentioned
• 27:23
  porn. There's alcohol. There's all sorts of drugs.
• 27:26
  One pattern I've noticed 2 patterns, actually.
• 27:29
  One of them is that
• 27:31
  it seems like we've all accepted the idea
• 27:34
  that we can't just be, and we've always
• 27:36
  gotta do or consume something or else we're
• 27:39
  not good enough. Yeah. That's part of it.
• 27:41
  Yeah. And that's tied in
• 27:43
  with this idea that
• 27:45
  we shan't love ourselves because it's arrogant
• 27:48
  or because it's gonna,
• 27:50
  I guess, divide up a finite amount of
• 27:53
  love as though we don't generate more of
• 27:54
  it ourselves. Mhmm.
• 27:56
  But it's almost like
• 27:57
  this, at least these two views
• 28:01
  Mhmm. Seem to exist in every client I
• 28:04
  have
• 28:05
  who
• 28:06
  smokes cigarettes or drinks alcohol. It's where, like,
• 28:09
  they can't just sit alone with their own
• 28:11
  thoughts like a monk on a mountain top
• 28:14
  feeling their hearts and feeling loving kindness. Yeah.
• 28:17
  And you might say I'm overly simplifying things,
• 28:20
  and I I would admit in some ways
• 28:21
  I I am. Mhmm.
• 28:24
  To to say that if only we all
• 28:26
  learned how
• 28:27
  to quietly sit with our own thoughts. Yeah.
• 28:30
  But but being a monk on a mountain
• 28:32
  top is not gonna be the way for
• 28:34
  most people. But here's the cool thing. We
• 28:36
  don't actually have to seclude ourselves with civilization.
• 28:40
  Mhmm. When we each have private homes or
• 28:43
  at least bedrooms,
• 28:45
  we can all retreat into it. Even in
• 28:47
  a city, we can put on our, you
• 28:48
  know, noise cancelling headphones. Yeah. We could close
• 28:51
  our eyes. We could pretend we're on a
• 28:53
  mountaintop. So I'm just kinda painting an image
• 28:55
  with a mountain top, but the idea is
• 28:57
  wherever we find seclusion,
• 28:59
  wherever we find privacy and quiet, is our
• 29:02
  mountaintop.
• 29:04
  And, you know, so it's no excuse that
• 29:06
  there's no mountain in sight in downtown Toronto.
• 29:09
  We're like, even in in like, we're in
• 29:11
  the downtown core right now. We're actually not
• 29:14
  far from one of the busiest intersections in
• 29:16
  the city. Mhmm. It's actually also very quiet
• 29:19
  in here because we boarded up the windows.
• 29:21
  Right. So this is like a an example
• 29:23
  of a mountain top in here. Yeah. Now
• 29:27
  let's say here
• 29:29
  I'm breathing deeply enough.
• 29:31
  Mhmm. I'm looking to wear the glass is
• 29:34
  half full in life. Mhmm. I'm thinking of
• 29:37
  those I care about.
• 29:40
  I'm generating within myself
• 29:42
  nice, warm, and fuzzy
• 29:44
  feelings. Mhmm.
• 29:46
  Right? Now, I'm I'm kind of losing my
• 29:47
  desire to go play a video game. Mhmm.
• 29:49
  I'm losing my desire to catch up on
• 29:51
  the latest episode of the show I might
• 29:53
  be watching on Amazon Video. Right. Right?
• 29:56
  I I I try to introspect
• 29:59
  to understand humanity.
• 30:00
  It's under the idea we have more in
• 30:02
  common than we have differences, and I, you
• 30:04
  know, can examine myself way better than anyone
• 30:06
  else. So, you know, if I ascertain that
• 30:10
  a practice seems to help me, then
• 30:12
  plausibly it could help another.
• 30:14
  Yeah. So I kind of imagining that if
• 30:17
  I only were to teach people how to
• 30:20
  find their version of a mountain top,
• 30:22
  to be with
• 30:24
  wear the glass is half full for them,
• 30:26
  to breathe deeply enough, to think of those
• 30:29
  they do care about, then they're gonna start
• 30:31
  losing their desire to have to consume, to
• 30:33
  have to do, to have to to, you
• 30:36
  know, fill in the void because the void's
• 30:38
  being filled in with the the good things
• 30:40
  I'm having them think about.
• 30:42
  Do do do do do you think that
• 30:43
  love is an adequate solution?
• 30:45
  That's the question.
• 30:46
  I I think there's an awful lot of
• 30:48
  stuff that
• 30:49
  compiled together
• 30:51
  in in your perspective there. And I I
• 30:53
  think in many ways, I do agree.
• 30:57
  Well, the two main things are, I would
• 30:59
  say, sort of mindfulness capacity to reflect and
• 31:03
  to have some silence so you can reflect
• 31:06
  on your own thoughts and not take everything
• 31:08
  as a given and not just rush into
• 31:11
  rush along with capitalist enterprise and be a
• 31:14
  cog in the machine or a brick in
• 31:15
  the wall as Pink Floyd Mhmm. Put it.
• 31:17
  Right? So, yes, that kind of mindfulness is
• 31:20
  super important.
• 31:22
  That's a little bit different than the sort
• 31:24
  of practice of love and kindness and goodness,
• 31:27
  which, yeah, that's another way of fulfilling
• 31:30
  our potential as people.
• 31:33
  Both of them can help us not require
• 31:36
  other kinds of input and other kinds of
• 31:38
  busyness.
• 31:39
  The busyness thing, you know I mean, back
• 31:42
  when I was when I was being,
• 31:44
  supervised as a grad student in psychotherapy techniques,
• 31:47
  I studied psychoanalysis
• 31:48
  and stuff. They called it the manic defense.
• 31:51
  There There's something called the manic defense. It's
• 31:53
  really simple idea that of all the defense
• 31:55
  mechanisms,
• 31:57
  being manic
• 31:58
  is kind of like the default. It's the
• 32:01
  basic one.
• 32:03
  Because by going after goals and doing,
• 32:06
  you know, achieving,
• 32:08
  whatever it is that you're going after and
• 32:11
  moving towards or away from
• 32:14
  very particular things in the world,
• 32:16
  you are feeling,
• 32:19
  feelings of connection, involvement, and utility that are
• 32:23
  really good to feel.
• 32:24
  So what about that? Well,
• 32:26
  we don't necessarily wanna get rid of that
• 32:28
  because, you know what, every
• 32:30
  baby needs to feel that in order to
• 32:32
  pull away from mom and dad and to
• 32:34
  go reaching across the room, and learn to
• 32:37
  crawl, and grab at things, and pull them
• 32:39
  off the shelf, and suck on them, or
• 32:41
  play with them. And all of cognitive development
• 32:44
  requires that kind of manic is a strong
• 32:47
  word, but it requires going after goals. Mhmm.
• 32:50
  So how is addiction different?
• 32:53
  It's somehow it is like a white noise
• 32:56
  machine. It's kind of it
• 32:59
  it blocks out other forms of connection.
• 33:01
  Mhmm. That's that's what I would say. Right?
• 33:03
  So
• 33:04
  yeah. So the kind of connection you get
• 33:06
  by pursuing normal goals, so to speak, like
• 33:09
  good goals, goals that are interesting and novel
• 33:12
  enough to be, you know, worth thinking about,
• 33:16
  gets replaced by going after the same thing
• 33:19
  day after day or hour after hour or
• 33:21
  month after month or year after year. That's
• 33:23
  a whole different kind of enterprise. That's not
• 33:26
  just being too involved in activity and not
• 33:28
  having enough time to reflect. That's there's a
• 33:30
  kind of intrinsic
• 33:32
  boringness to that.
• 33:34
  Repetition numbs you. Right? It turns off a
• 33:37
  lot of aspects of having a well functioning
• 33:40
  mind, brain, and heart.
• 33:44
  But as for the role of love, I
• 33:45
  mean, you and I agree about that.
• 33:47
  Feeling love for other people, feeling that connection,
• 33:50
  concern,
• 33:51
  care, respect,
• 33:52
  and for oneself,
• 33:54
  fundamental practices,
• 33:55
  practices,
• 33:56
  strange word, fundamental way of connecting,
• 33:59
  with other people that is tremendously fulfilling that
• 34:03
  indeed feels really good. And by the way,
• 34:05
  yes, it does actually stimulate opioid receptors.
• 34:09
  In fact, mother's milk has opioids
• 34:12
  in it. So,
• 34:13
  when I use the word love,
• 34:15
  I'm not talking about like romantic love, which
• 34:18
  is highs and downs. Right? It's it's
• 34:21
  it's a little artificial,
• 34:22
  and it's seldomly lasting.
• 34:25
  So I took a Vipassana meditation course,
• 34:28
  one of the 10 day Goenkara retreats Okay.
• 34:31
  Many, many years ago. In fact, 2 weeks
• 34:32
  before I opened the board of his clinic
• 34:34
  for hypnosis, and I got back and I
• 34:35
  opened up. I rent out this office, which
• 34:37
  is now our studio Yeah. And I opened
• 34:39
  it up 2 weeks after I got back
• 34:41
  from that retreat. Right. But,
• 34:43
  the term is loving kindness,
• 34:45
  which is an English translation of of the
• 34:47
  word meta,
• 34:48
  m e t t a. So what when
• 34:50
  I mean when I talk about, like, sitting
• 34:52
  quietly
• 34:53
  with your own
• 34:54
  thoughts Mhmm. And feeling your own heart and
• 34:58
  causing your own good feelings that way, I'm
• 35:00
  not really talking about, like, pursuing romantic love
• 35:03
  or even, like, parental love or love for
• 35:05
  a child or even love for, like, a
• 35:07
  cat or a dog. Right. I'm talking about
• 35:09
  loving kindness that's for all human beings. Right.
• 35:13
  And that one can feel when he's he
• 35:15
  or she is on their own. Yeah. And
• 35:17
  I would say also that that kind of
• 35:19
  love, and yes, it meta, that Buddhist term
• 35:22
  covers it. It's
• 35:24
  there is something that is intrinsically connects that
• 35:26
  with mindfulness.
• 35:28
  Because to love in that way, whether it's
• 35:30
  someone else or yourself, you need to get
• 35:32
  them. You need to actually think about what
• 35:34
  it's like to be that person. What's it
• 35:36
  like for you? I don't know what it's
• 35:37
  like for you. You have a very different
• 35:39
  life than I do, of course.
• 35:42
  And what's it like for people of other
• 35:45
  genders or races or economic conditions and all
• 35:47
  that stuff requires a certain amount of reflection
• 35:50
  and thoughtfulness,
• 35:51
  which to me is pretty close to mindfulness.
• 35:53
  It's like, you know, what's it like? And
• 35:55
  also when we are loving ourselves, caring for
• 35:57
  ourselves,
• 35:59
  I use a kind of psychotherapy now in
• 36:01
  in my psychology practice called, internal family systems,
• 36:05
  which is getting quite popular these days. It's
• 36:07
  IFS is the acronym. IFS,
• 36:10
  Internal Family Systems.
• 36:12
  First thing I always tell people, it's not
• 36:14
  family therapy.
• 36:15
  No. That's a misnomer.
• 36:17
  The internal family is this, the family of
• 36:20
  parts or voices, they call them parts of
• 36:22
  ourselves.
• 36:23
  The part that is craving
• 36:26
  fulfillment,
• 36:27
  like the addictive part, give me more. The
• 36:30
  part that is critical,
• 36:32
  you're being an idiot. I can't believe you're
• 36:34
  doing that again. What a jerk. You know,
• 36:36
  the part that whatever. There's a number of
• 36:38
  different parts of us that just pure needy.
• 36:41
  I feel alone. I need to be cared
• 36:43
  for. The part that, you know, all that.
• 36:45
  Okay. So what about that?
• 36:47
  It's kind
• 36:49
  of analogous
• 36:51
  to the way we need to understand other
• 36:53
  people is to really consider them. What's it
• 36:56
  like to be you?
• 36:57
  What's it and then in IFS, it's it's
• 37:00
  it's astounding the way it works. In IFS,
• 37:03
  you kind of look at your parts very,
• 37:06
  you know, very, deliberately
• 37:08
  and say, what's it like for you internal
• 37:10
  critic to be this
• 37:12
  critical mean, you know, accusatory
• 37:14
  part of me? What's that like for you?
• 37:17
  Well, I do that because you get in
• 37:18
  so much trouble all the time. You're always,
• 37:20
  you know,
• 37:21
  screwing up and, you know, banging your head
• 37:24
  against the wall and I just can't have
• 37:25
  that anymore. I need to get you under
• 37:27
  control.
• 37:28
  Oh, that's different. Mhmm. How do you know?
• 37:30
  How do you get that? Well, you really
• 37:32
  have to look inside. So it is a
• 37:34
  kind of mindfulness
• 37:35
  Yeah. Involved in understanding what's going on inside
• 37:38
  or in other people. Well, it kind of
• 37:41
  raises the idea that the questions you ask
• 37:44
  yourself
• 37:45
  are going to evoke
• 37:47
  certain
• 37:48
  answers or even certain
• 37:50
  domains of answer. Yeah. So asking the question
• 37:53
  of one's inner critic,
• 37:54
  what's it like for you? Mhmm. Evokes 4
• 37:57
  higher quality answers Mhmm. Than asking the inner
• 38:01
  critic, could you please shut up? Yes. Right?
• 38:03
  Exactly. Yes. So That's the main point. Yeah.
• 38:06
  Yeah. Well, often the questions we ask ourselves
• 38:08
  are just simply not very good questions. You're
• 38:10
  right. So a common question is, what's wrong
• 38:13
  with me? Well, anytime you ask the question,
• 38:15
  what's wrong with me? You're setting it up.
• 38:16
  You're setting, like it's a leading question. You
• 38:18
  gotta come up with everything bad bad about
• 38:20
  you. Yes. It's a leading question. Exactly. And
• 38:23
  with the addict self, the famous addict self,
• 38:25
  which, you know, in AA is doing push
• 38:27
  ups in the parking lot. They actually have
• 38:29
  this expression. You know, your addict self
• 38:31
  your addiction is doing push up push ups,
• 38:33
  strengthening itself while you're in here trying to
• 38:35
  be a good boy or girl.
• 38:37
  Sorry. But, you know, that doesn't quite wash.
• 38:40
  So, like, what is this addictive part actually
• 38:43
  trying to do? The craving part. I want
• 38:45
  more. I want to drink. I want to
• 38:47
  drink tonight. I don't want to be sober.
• 38:49
  I don't want to, you know, abstain.
• 38:52
  What's that like for you? Well,
• 38:55
  I know that this helps you. It soothes
• 38:57
  you. It makes you feel better.
• 38:59
  I want us to feel better so to
• 39:00
  speak. I mean, it's kinda strange to put
• 39:02
  that in language, but I want us to
• 39:04
  feel better. So that's what I do for
• 39:06
  us.
• 39:07
  In any kind of good communication,
• 39:09
  you want to assume good
• 39:11
  faith. Yes. So in your inner dialogue, you
• 39:14
  want to assume good faith. That's pretty much
• 39:16
  the idea. And in fact, Richard Schwartz, the
• 39:18
  founder, his latest book is called No Bad
• 39:21
  Parts.
• 39:22
  Precisely that. Yes. All kind of on your
• 39:24
  side one way or another.
• 39:26
  Yep.
• 39:27
  Yep. And even the part that wants you
• 39:29
  to use heroin or go on a bender
• 39:32
  has some kind of positive intention. And when
• 39:35
  you're asking the right questions,
• 39:37
  you arrive at that positive intention and then
• 39:39
  you can meet that positive intention
• 39:41
  in some more
• 39:43
  holistically
• 39:45
  appropriate or beneficial way. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty much
• 39:48
  so. And so when you really get into
• 39:50
  conversation with these parts of oneself,
• 39:53
  the addict self being the most prevalent,
• 39:56
  is like,
• 39:57
  okay. I wanted to instead of, like, trying
• 39:58
  to get rid of you and toss you
• 40:00
  in the trash and, you know,
• 40:02
  talk you and tell you're whatever, until you
• 40:04
  give up on me, I'm gonna I'm going
• 40:06
  to accept what you need, what you want,
• 40:09
  and we're gonna work together,
• 40:11
  which sounds really odd. Who's doing the talking
• 40:13
  if that's a part of yourself? Well, somehow
• 40:15
  it works. Yeah. And so you're bringing a
• 40:17
  perspective and a mindfulness
• 40:19
  together with that urge and saying,
• 40:22
  we're gonna actually kind of just
• 40:25
  gently re
• 40:26
  we're gonna modify the way we get this
• 40:29
  feeling, the way it works so that so
• 40:31
  that it doesn't kill us, so that it
• 40:32
  doesn't hurt us, doesn't get us in horrible
• 40:34
  trouble at home with the family, with your
• 40:36
  partner, with your bank account, etcetera. Yeah. Right?
• 40:39
  And it works. And everything, all the different
• 40:41
  parts actually say, yeah.
• 40:43
  Please. That would be nice. Well, the the
• 40:46
  the thing with addiction is because
• 40:50
  so often addiction follows from trauma.
• 40:53
  Yeah. And so often there's this undercurrent
• 40:56
  of shame
• 40:57
  that that's underlying
• 40:59
  Mhmm. Any form of addiction. Mhmm. Often when
• 41:02
  one
• 41:02
  superficially
• 41:03
  examines their inner dialogue, there's nothing good going
• 41:06
  on inside. That's right. It's it's all, you
• 41:08
  know, why you're bad or why you're shameful
• 41:11
  or how you're a mess up. So that's
• 41:13
  why asking oneself what's wrong with me, which
• 41:17
  the medical model almost kind of does.
• 41:21
  Kind of. Oh, I I guess it, you
• 41:23
  know
• 41:25
  Well, I would say I would say Yeah.
• 41:27
  We're gonna tell you what's wrong with you.
• 41:29
  We're gonna look it up. We've got all
• 41:30
  kinds of data on this. We're going to
• 41:32
  let you know what's wrong with you. Right.
• 41:34
  But it's the paradigm of what's wrong
• 41:37
  as opposed to what's the intent.
• 41:40
  Well, yeah. Because they're not assuming
• 41:43
  any kind of teleological,
• 41:44
  any kind of goal oriented
• 41:47
  conscious deliberate activity on the part of the
• 41:49
  virus.
• 41:50
  Right? Yeah. Virus doesn't have questions. Right? Fit
• 41:53
  human beings are way more complex than viruses.
• 41:55
  Yeah. So but
• 41:57
  but anyway, there are parallels with the medical
• 42:00
  form of diagnosis and
• 42:03
  analysis.
• 42:04
  Thank you for listening to How to be
• 42:05
  an adult.
• 42:07
  This episode, an interview with Mark Lewis, will
• 42:09
  be continued in part 2, which will be
• 42:12
  released in 2 weeks.
• 42:14
  How to be an adult is a production
• 42:16
  of the Morpheus Clinic for hypnosis
• 42:19
  at www.morphisclinic.com.