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SMNTY Interviews: Julie Piñero · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Dani.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: And Samantha.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: And welcome to Stuff I Never Told You, a production
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: And today, we are so excited to have, okay, I'm
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: going to list them off. Writer, producer, performer, fellow podcaster,
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: fellow iHearter, an adventurer in so many things, Julie Pinheiro.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us.
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: Okay, before we get into this, because we are really
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: excited to talk about a lot because there's so many
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: avenues that we could take with you specifically in so
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: many conversations. So I have a feeling this might go
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: a little long because we love to hear all the
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: things that you have to say. But with that, can
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Yes.
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: So I'm a writer and a performer.
• 0:58
  Speaker 4: And a lot of my work actually is on this
• 1:02
  Speaker 4: theme of uncertainty, whether it's I run a monthly comedy
• 1:06
  Speaker 4: storytelling show about what happens after things end in life.
• 1:10
  Speaker 4: Instead of telling the story of the breakup where we
• 1:13
  Speaker 4: break up at the end of the story, we break
• 1:15
  Speaker 4: up and then the story is about something unexpected that
• 1:18
  Speaker 4: happened after. The show is called Afters. And so I'm
• 1:21
  Speaker 4: really interested at what happens when people don't know what's
• 1:24
  Speaker 4: going to happen next. Which is why I think my
• 1:27
  Speaker 4: next project, which I'm currently publishing weekly on iHeart, is
• 1:31
  Speaker 4: a podcast called Solita, which is about what happens when
• 1:34
  Speaker 4: women go out into the world and travel by themselves.
• 1:38
  Speaker 4: What do they find when it's just you and the
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: beautiful receptivity that you get when it's just you alone?
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: What sorts of messy adventures can you sort of tumble into?
• 1:49
  Speaker 4: What sorts of strangers can you meet? What sorts of
• 1:52
  Speaker 4: predicaments can you work yourself out of and sort of
• 1:55
  Speaker 4: impress yourself? What sorts of things can you say yes
• 1:57
  Speaker 4: to that you have never said yes to before? So
• 2:01
  Speaker 4: prior to that, you know, I was producing a lot
• 2:03
  Speaker 4: of podcasts. I produced the podcast Who Killed JFK? I
• 2:06
  Speaker 4: had a project called De Lejos, which won an award
• 2:09
  Speaker 4: at Tribeca. And so I dabble in the world of
• 2:12
  Speaker 4: audio and also just like getting people in a room
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: and doing live performance and playing with the unexpected energy
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: of a room.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Yes, and we're going to get into those projects because
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: they're so fascinating. There's so much to talk about. Samantha
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: and I, when we were discussing you coming on the show,
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: we both had a moment of saying, like, she has
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: done so much. It's a lot of the stuff that
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: you have been a part of creating in some way
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: or the other. It's a little intimidating sometimes.
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: Really? Yeah.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. Why do you say that?
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: In a good way.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: We love women who do like so much stuff. We're
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: big cheerleaders. We're big fans of people who do this.
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: Is this a comment on my schedule?
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: It's very packed.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: I would say like it might be a comment to
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: like your steadfastness in your career path because maybe you
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: have like SNL under your belt. You have like.
• 3:15
  Speaker 4: That was a very early career thing. That was like
• 3:18
  Speaker 4: an internship type position.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: An early career thing. Early career and you're like SNL
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: was an internship. I'm like, excuse me?
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know when you're someone's assistant, it's sort
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: of like you could be someone's assistant anywhere.
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: This was a cool job, though.
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: This was a spinoff of SNL that lasted one summer
• 3:35
  Speaker 4: called Maya and Marty.
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: I don't know if anybody watched it, but the premise
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: was brilliant.
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: It's an SNL show where instead of new cast members,
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: it's like all the old alums hosted by Maya Rudolph
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: and Martin Schwartz.
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: It didn't quite find its audience. It didn't quite land.
• 3:51
  Speaker 4: But it was really fun to sort of start up
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: the production office at a new show like that.
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: I was employee number two. It was crazy.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, that, Rob Reiner, you know, you're working
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: with the amazing Rob Reiner, which we're going to get into.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: All of the amazing podcasts that you have done. Again,
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: we're going to talk about The Lighthouse in a minute
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: because I was like, what?
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: What?
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: Wait, what is this? But like, yes, that would be
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: for this mid-40s-year-old looking at your career. I was like, oh,
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: she's done some things. Okay.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: Oh, my gosh.
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: Well, thank you for saying those really nice things. Oh,
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: we love, we're hype women. We're there, we're there.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: But could you give us a breakdown of how you
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: got onto this intimidating career path?
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: It's so funny.
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: I was just talking about this with a friend last night.
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: So I studied biology in college. I thought I was
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: going to work in a lab forever. And at some
• 4:50
  Speaker 4: point it started to feel like not the right fit.
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: And I was creating radio shows, documentaries I was writing
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: on the side, always thinking that this is just a
• 4:59
  Speaker 4: thing that I like to do. And then one day
• 5:02
  Speaker 4: I got invited to something called speed networking at my college.
• 5:05
  Speaker 4: And I very reluctantly dragged myself there. And it was
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: basically this. It's sort of like speed dating. There were
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: a bunch of alumni from my college that were sitting
• 5:15
  Speaker 4: on the opposite side of a table. And you all
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: got three minutes sitting in front of each alumni to
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: exchange information about yourself. So I sat down. The first
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: person I sat down in front of was this man
• 5:26
  Speaker 4: named Matt Roberts. And I had three minutes to describe myself.
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: And I, of course, just sort of rambled about how
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: I didn't know what I wanted to do. I was
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: a senior in college. I had no idea what my
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: next step was going to be. And then the first
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: thing he said when it was his turn to talk was,
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: my name is Matt Roberts, and I'm the head writer
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: at The Late Show with David Letterman. And I'm was
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: so shocked. I didn't think that somebody from my, you know,
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: small liberal arts college could do something like that. It
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: really is a testament to the power of seeing somebody
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: with your fill in the blank doing something interesting. So
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: I approached him afterwards and I said, I never thought
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: I could pursue something like this professionally.
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: Can you tell me more?
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: And then he invited me to apply for the internship
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: and then I got the writer's intern. And from there,
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: every single career step has been a step from that.
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: Or every single career step has been, you know, one
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: step after the other, starting with that opportunity. But I
• 6:25
  Speaker 4: never thought that you could make a career out of
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: writing about your feelings.
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: Like, that's what I do. I'm a very emotional writer.
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: I write about my feelings, and then I put other
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: people in front of the microphone to talk about not
• 6:40
  Speaker 4: only their feelings, but the story of how they grew
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: into that feeling or how they realized something.
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: Something pivotal that happened to them.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: Right. I mean, let's be honest. Not everyone can do that.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: Only if you're good at it. And you're obviously very
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: good at it. And you do a great job in
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: giving other people platform to do that as well. So,
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, just the reality check is.
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: I mean, everybody has the potential for it, though, because
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: we're all storytellers. It's baked into our DNA. The one
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: note that I would give all of us is that
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: most of us tell the story of a situation and
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: not a story. So we tell the story of the
• 7:22
  Speaker 4: things that happened to us. We don't situate ourselves in
• 7:26
  Speaker 4: that story. So why did you make the decisions you made?
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: And why are the decisions that you made at the
• 7:32
  Speaker 4: start of the story different from the decision that you
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: ultimately made at the end of the story?
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: That's, to me, what a story is. That's how you
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: find yourself in your own story.
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: Well, one of the things that... I find interesting about
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: you and about storytelling is that you've done it in
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: several mediums. Like you've been in television and now with podcasts.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: I'm curious, as podcasters, we always want to know, how
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: did you arrive at podcasting and what are some of
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: the different ways that you approach storytelling in these different mediums?
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: So I arrived at podcasting Simply because I was in
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: the very unstable industry of digital video media when it
• 8:19
  Speaker 4: was changing. And I was very lucky to have somebody
• 8:22
  Speaker 4: connect me with somebody who worked in audio. I was
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: making videos for early social media, 2015, 2016. There were
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: huge budgets for it. And when those budgets got cut,
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: those jobs became unstable. And at that time, I had
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: a friend who said, hey, I was given the opportunity
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: to do an audio memoir today. do you want to
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: produce it for me? You know how to do story stuff.
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  Speaker 4: And I was like, I don't know how to do audio,
• 8:45
  Speaker 4: but I'll figure it out. And then I did it.
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: And I've been in that ever since. And I think
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: I'm so grateful for it because writing for audio makes
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: you a lot more direct. I don't know if you
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: guys experience this too, but you don't have the visual
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: to lean on. You don't have the energy of the room.
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: It's you in someone's ear and you have to be
• 9:07
  Speaker 4: really clear with what you're saying. It's almost the opposite
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: of a visual artist, like a painter in that way,
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: because I can stand in front of a painting and
• 9:15
  Speaker 4: I can muse on it and I can be like,
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: what is this about? But if I'm in your ear,
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: like I have to be very direct and you can
• 9:21
  Speaker 4: be artistic with it, but I think it's made me
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: a much better writer. Because I can just be incredibly
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: clear with what I'm saying. And I think that gives
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: you a lot more freedom to be like, well, what
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: am I actually saying? And then spin it in a
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: lot of different depths. But yeah, there's a lot of
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: different forms of storytelling that I sort of play around in.
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: I was producing a show, directing a show for Zoom
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: during the pandemic. And I'm very specific about like, this
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: was not a show that I adapted for Zoom. This
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: is a show that I wrote for the medium of Zoom.
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: And I had my laptop face down.
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: One direction.
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: And then when I wanted to invoke a new place,
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: I shifted my laptop 80 degrees and I had built
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: a new set in that place. And so I would
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: jump between almost like rooms and sets. And I would
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: play with lighting cues. I would play with, you know,
• 10:17
  Speaker 4: the limited capabilities of Zoom to be able to create
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: these new emotional environments. And I just, I was so
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: inspired by that because I think that when you're put
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: into a box and you're given limited resources and limited
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: options to make something, your creativity really comes alive. This
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: is what I'm saying about like writing for audios. Like
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: you have one way into this person's heart. It is
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: through their ears. Like you can get really playful with
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: how you get creative with that. And then playing with
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: the energy of a live room, I think is so interesting.
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: You know, when you walk into a room and there
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: is somebody performing or they're giving a presentation, there is
• 10:56
  Speaker 4: a hidden contract there, which is that the person on
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: stage is going to land the plane.
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: They can play around with vulnerability in a scripted way
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: or in an improvised way, but that requires skill. But
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: at the end of the day, when you're in the audience,
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: like you're trusting that the performer has control. And I
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: think that's really interesting to play with because the minute
• 11:17
  Speaker 4: that the performer loses a little bit of a grip
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: on that, I think that creates a very interesting sense
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: of uncertainty in the room. And that's just like tension.
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: And so I've played around with that a lot. The
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: reason I first started playing around with it was very unintentionally.
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: I was doing stand-up comedy, and out of nowhere, I
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: was dating somebody, and he passed away. And this is
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: the story behind De Lejos, the audio piece that I
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: made that won the award at Tribeca. But in the
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: very early stages of that, when his name was Jose,
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: right when Jose passed away, I was getting on stage
• 11:56
  Speaker 4: doing stand-up. and talking about my grief and getting really
• 12:01
  Speaker 4: emotional and like not landing jokes. And there was so
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: much tension in the room because people were like, is
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: she okay? And it really illuminated this dynamic again of like,
• 12:14
  Speaker 4: I'm supposed to be in control when I'm on a
• 12:16
  Speaker 4: stage and you're expecting me to be in control. And
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: then just something really interesting happened when I wasn't in control. People,
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: instead of getting that like immediate feedback of laughing, people
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: were like leaning in and they were coming up to
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: me after the show and they were like talking to
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: me about their feelings. And I just felt something a
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: little bit richer come from that. And it's interesting when
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: you're a performer and like you need something from the
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: audience that I think just creates a little bit more
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: of an interesting dynamic. So then I wrote a show
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: a couple of years later called Hum where, um, I
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: started asking the audience to read lines and everybody in
• 12:57
  Speaker 4: the audience had a role and it created a literal conversation.
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: The show was a literal conversation between me and the
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: audience the whole time. So again, like a little bit
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: playing with that uncertainty, playing with that tension in the room.
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: I think that's where live performance really soars.
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: Well, you do an amazing job in interweaving all of
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: the different talents that you have in the way you
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: see things, in the way you produce or write or
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: host a podcast or do these different projects. It's really
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: interesting to hear you go through those processes because I
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: think you definitely have a different viewpoint that I've seen.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: And Annie's been in this business a lot longer than me,
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: but in the last eight years of how you speak
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: about these projects, in these podcasts, that it becomes more
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: than just one medium. Somehow you combine so many into
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: these things. So that's a unique take on itself. I
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: feel like that just learned something new, a new perspective.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: So thank you for that. I wasn't ready. I need
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: to write this thing down. I wasn't ready for this learning.
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: Thank God you're recording.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: Thank God I'm recording. Thank God we got this on recording.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: But with that, I do want to go back to
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: Dahlia Hills because immediately I was like, as we are
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: researching all the amazing things that you did, and we're
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: definitely going to get into the newest podcast that you have,
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: which is amazing. I'm still listening to it. But like
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: the idea of telling your story, your grief story, processing
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: your grief, but also taking Zoom, which had been around,
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: but let's be honest, like, the pandemic really brought it to, like,
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: as the big thing. Like, that became, like, a verb.
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: Like, we're going to Zoom.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: We're going to, you know, all these things. So you
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: taking this, and Annie has talked about one of her
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: favorite horror movies. I'm going to bring in horror for you, Annie,
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: which was related to Zoom. Host. Yeah. And they did
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: a whole, like, essentially horror movie through Zoom.
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: I think I saw that movie.
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: It was good.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: It was good. I watched it because of Annie. But
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: with that, like delving into something that was new like that,
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: like I need to know more about this project. Obviously,
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: you were talking a little bit about why you did
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: it and how you kind of did it. But you
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: also did your music. You wanted to take the experience
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: of Zoom, but make it a VR experience, like all
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: these things. Can you just kind of talk about this
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: project a little bit? Yeah.
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: So in 2019, I was very fresh into a new
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: relationship with a man named Jose Zambrano.
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: We had just become exclusive actually two weeks before he
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: passed away. And he passed away in a really unfair way.
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: He had his life taken by two guys on the street. And,
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: you know, we were at that point in a relationship
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: that we were more future than past. You know, he
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: had just met all of my friends for the first
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: time that exact night that he was killed. And I
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: was left like, at the top of the roller coaster
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: was how I described it.
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: And we were starting a band together and.
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: We had all of these like ideas for these creative
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: projects that we wanted to do together. So creativity was
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: very much within our love language. And so I decided
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: that I wanted to create something that finished the story
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: that felt like we had started writing together. I didn't
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: quite know what that meant or how it was going
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: to come to life. But I really dedicated myself, you know,
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: in this intense period of not only grief, but like
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: processing some serious trauma. We laid by his bedside for
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: four days in vigil, hoping that he would come through.
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: And the funeral and everything was incredibly difficult. And it
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: was right before the pandemic as well. I told myself
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: I was going to create a project that finished this.
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: So over the course of the next few weeks after
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: he passed, I sort of parked myself on my couch
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: in my apartment and I had a lot of friends
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: come through and visit and I would just process this
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: like verbally. I would just talk about it and how
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: unfair and confusing the whole thing felt. And as I
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: kept talking about it and him and us, a couple
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: of things started to come to life. First of all,
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: Jose was a virtual reality video game designer. And so
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: he lived and worked in these realities where, you know,
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: they didn't need the bounds of this physical world. And
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: that felt incredibly inspiring to me. Also, on our first date,
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: he told me about this video game that he was
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: designing that he called De Lejos, which in Spanish translates
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: to From Afar.
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: And I'm Puerto Rican.
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: And to me, you know, I loved the idea of
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: this game that connects people from afar because a lot
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: of my family is on the island. I grew up,
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: I was born here in the continental U.S. So I
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: love this idea of connecting two people into things from
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: a distance. He was writing it from the perspective of grief,
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: of having to leave, force leave Venezuela and connecting to
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: his mom who is still back there. And so this
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: project for him was a project about grief and connecting
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: to something from afar that you no longer are like
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: physically proximate to. And so as I'm processing his passing
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: and all of these things in the weeks after he died,
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: it dawns on me that like maybe he had some
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: sort of insight that I could tap into with this
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: unfinished video game that he was writing about grief.
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: And so.
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: I just started writing what was a commitment to finishing
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: his game. I decided I was going to finish his
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: game and it was going to have live music because
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: that's what we were, you know, a project that we
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: were starting. We were starting a band called Julian Jose's
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: Fever Dream, which feels incredibly apropos to what the whole
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: thing felt like. And then the pandemic hit and the
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: whole world shut down. And in a way, it felt
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: cathartic that everybody else's world stopped because mine did too.
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: And I didn't want the pressure of having to go
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: try to pretend to be a normal person when I
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: was like processing something incredibly heavy. So I moved back
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: to my mom's house in Maryland. I went down to
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: her basement and every day I wrote and produced and
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: directed this show, this project. And it eventually, you know,
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: because of because everybody was going to be joining from
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: afar from their homes, it also became a reflection on.
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: what it's like to feel close to people when you're
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: far away. And I did it from my mom's basement.
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: Like I said, I directed it. I built this whole set.
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: And I started just performing it every Thursday in all
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: of its different versions. And at some point, it was
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: a finished show. I don't know how to quite describe
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: how the show culminated, but basically when I would, I
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: would perform it every Thursday and it felt like an
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: act of prayer. I don't know how else to say it,
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: but it was almost like I was putting out this
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: call every time and I was stepping into this virtual
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: reality of this world where I'm still connected to him.
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: And again, sitting at the top of the roller coaster
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: and I needed it in order to heal. And so
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: this show became a grieving ritual for me. And I
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: would do it in front of people who were also
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: grieving the loss that they felt during the pandemic of
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: their loved ones, of their life, of everything. And at
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: a certain point, I decided this is enough.
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: And I stopped doing the show.
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: And, you know, I sort of describe it as like,
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: The roller coaster ticked forward and I had to put
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: my hands up and that grieving ritual like really served
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: its purpose.
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: And I.
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: It was a controlled environment, so I presented it to,
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: I think, a couple of thousand people ended up coming.
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: And one of those people was a friend of mine
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: who's an editor at The New York Times. And she said,
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: let's craft this into an audio op-ed. And so we did.
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: And it sat with The New York Times for a
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: couple of years, and they ultimately decided not to publish it.
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: So we took it back, and we entered it into
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: the Tribeca Film Festival as an audio submission. And it won,
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: which was incredibly gratifying and felt, again, like this like
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: notch of closure of like, OK, you know, this was
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: this was this started as his project. And I was
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: able to like adapt it into something. And now we're
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: sitting and talking about it. And so it feels like
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: an incredible ode to his legacy that I get to
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: keep talking about. Right.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: What an homage. That is beautiful. Like, I really was
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: intrigued by the entirety of the project. And I was like, okay,
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: we can't not talk about this. I need some answers
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: because it's such a beautiful concept. And obviously, you wanted
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: to honor someone that you cared for so deeply and
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: did it in a way that unfolded for so many
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: people at a time that many people were feeling grief
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: and needed an outlet and needed a way for someone
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: to To understand. And that's such an amazing thing. And
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: also like you're bringing in the mediums and making sure
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: in what I'm now finding is that you have an
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: ability to interweave so much together in a way that
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: it speaks to a greater audience. And it's a beautiful thing.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: So thank you so much for sharing that. Thanks. There's
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: so many other projects that we could talk about, but
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: we did want to get into your work today with Solitas.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: But before, because you also have your LLC, which you
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: call No Floaties, and you give a nod to a mentor,
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: Rob Reiner, the great Rob Reiner. Can you kind of
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: talk about how the name came about and why he
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: was such an inspiration for that?
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: Yes, I'm so glad that you're asking me about this.
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: I'm feeling incredibly emotional. So Rob Reiner and his wife, Michelle,
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: were two... I cannot even believe that I'm saying this.
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: I feel so lucky every day. They were two incredibly
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: close collaborators of mine. I produced the podcast Who Killed JFK?
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: And this actually happened to hit right during the writer's strike.
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: And so Rob had this big open chunk of time.
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: And so him.
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: And I and Michelle would sit over Zoom for hours
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: and just story edit this podcast together, which was a
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: lot of just like script wrangling. And then at some
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: point pulling it into a project file and watching him
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: story edit something in real time was such a gift.
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: And we were really in the weeds of this project together.
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: And so we just spent, yeah, a lot of time together.
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: They came to New York and took me out for dinner.
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: And I just, you know, I was a young story
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: editor at that point, and I learned so much from them.
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: And Rob was giving an interview, and him and Soledad
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: O'Brien was another host on this project. They were describing
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: how I was brought into the project with very little context.
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: And I basically had to find my way through it.
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: And so a big part of that was reading this
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: huge book on like the JFK conspiracy theory. And I
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: was always sort of like catching up. And so he
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: described my work as being thrown into the deep end
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: with no floaties. And it was very cool to have
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: like a video of him saying that now, given... you know,
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: him and Michelle's very sad and tragic passing. But really
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: right after he said that, it was time for me
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: to create an LLC and like, you know, take my
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: work a little more seriously. And so I named it
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: No Floaties. And I have that sign up in my
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: office now. It says No Floaties Productions. Like, I just
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: want to say Rob and Michelle are and were the
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: most wonderful, gracious people on top of being incredibly talented
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: and doing all of their work as a unit. She
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: really was right there with him. They were the most warm, welcoming,
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: passionate people that you would never expect considering their legacy
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: in the industry. They could brush, they really have the
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: capacity to brush so many people off. They could have
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: And with every turn, it's like they brought people in.
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: They brought me into their family. They set me up
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: with their daughter and we traveled through Scotland together, which
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: was really sweet. And I was set to produce a
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: new project with them about their family and about father-daughter
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: relationships when they passed. And I just feel incredibly grateful
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: for the time that we got together. And I hope
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: that with No Floaties being attached to my work moving forward,
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: that his legacy will also shine through too.
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for sharing that because yes,
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: they seem like such incredible people. Like everything, everything reading
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: about them from beginning to end, like my understanding of
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: who he was from like the princess bride and him
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: sharing his own relationship with his father and then his
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: relationships with his coworkers and co-stars and people he worked through.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: It very much feels like him and his wife, both
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: giant legends that go beyond obviously just Hollywood and just
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: through media, but just being great people, people of substance
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: and people of like care and humanity. So I love
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: hearing a personal take of that. So thank you so
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: much for sharing that. Cause that means a lot. And
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: I know like the depth that we have to keep
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: celebrating and, who they are and what they've done and
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: what they will continue to do. Because obviously their influence
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: reaches out and we see it with your work and
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: what you're doing, especially as you're talking about, you know,
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: you had traveled with his daughter. And I hope one
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: day that we do get to hear the father-daughter story. Obviously,
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: it's going to be a different avenue, but I hope
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: that you're able to get with his daughter and share
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: that story because that would be incredible. And that would
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: be so inspiring for so many people who are seeking
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: Like just that genuine loving connection between a father and daughter.
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: They had such a rich relationship. Yeah.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: But also holding time to grieve and being able to
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: grieve and for yourself with loss for someone who obviously
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: meant a lot to you on such a deep and
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: personal level. And I know like just from your works
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: and just from the bit of what you're sharing with
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: us with this new podcast, with the works that you've done,
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: you really are doing something unique. And I see that
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: he's helped foster a little of that in the way
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: you tell your stories and the way you bring such
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: empathy in the way you tell your stories, which also
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: comes out in this podcast. And so it is like
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: the way you interview individuals that you touch through so
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: many things. And I'm going to. Take it on a
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: little different, lighter, selfish note. Because I've been obsessed with
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: things like train travel recently. Like I've really been like, oh,
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: I need to go on some trains. I need to
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: do some overnighters. As well as being obsessed with like
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: international house hunters. Be like, can I live somewhere for
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: a year beyond the U.S.? Is it time for us
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: to be living in the U.S.? Which again, feels like
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: you coming and crossing our path may be a sign.
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: There we go.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: We're going to leave that as a question mark, Julie,
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: question mark here. I'm putting quotation marks, not question marks,
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: but question mark here. But with that, can you tell
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: us a bit about your podcast? Yes.
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: So Solita is about women identifying people who travel alone.
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: So I firmly believe that if you are a person
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: who was socialized as female, then you should travel alone
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: at some point in your life. Because, and I just
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: interviewed a travel psychologist, so I am armed with a
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: lot of facts, but it really named a lot of
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: the things that I think a lot of women feel
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: when they travel alone, the sense of freedom. You know,
• 29:56
  Speaker 4: as women, when we are socialized We are often taught
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: to put others first. And I always felt that. But
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: then this psychologist, her name is Dr. Katie Blake. She
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: told me that when men are asked to describe themselves,
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: they describe themselves in adjectives.
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: I am strong. I am smart. I am bold.
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: When women are asked to describe themselves, they describe themselves
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: as nouns.
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: So I am a mother. I am a daughter. I
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: am a sister.
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: When you travel alone... You're in one of the rare
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: positions where you're outside of those roles and you get
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: this flexibility with your identity where you can say yes
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: to things that you would not typically say yes to
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: when you're back home and you are filling those roles.
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: And it gives us huge opportunity for change. not only
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: like self-reflection, but also growth. Like you get to, maybe
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: you navigate a city for the first time. You navigate
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: a city in a completely different language, navigating the subway
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: for the first time, and it builds this feeling of self-capability.
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: Or you start talking to strangers for the first time.
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: You know, I firmly believe that Being alone makes you
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: more open and receptive to other people. You have to
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: ask for help. People will see you and they'll be
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: more likely to chat with you because you don't have
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: like a peanut gallery next to you. And then you
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: also like are, you know, you're more likely to change
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: your mind as well. You don't have, again, somebody else
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: there reinforcing your own beliefs back at you. And when
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: you are traveling to different places around the world, you're
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: getting to see how people actually live and not just
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: like the lies that you're fed about how they live.
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: I think it has the capability for being this incredibly
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: transformative time. I also think that the media has not
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: done us a great favor in that sense, too. We're
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: living in this like sort of post-eat-pray-love time where, you know,
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: that story has been flattened to like, if you travel
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: alone as a woman, you're going to find yourself. And
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: I don't think that you always find yourself. I think
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: that you can find aspects of yourself. I think you
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: can challenge yourself in all of these ways. But I
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: think that the problem with flattening that into when you
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: solo travel, you're going to find yourself is that a
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: lot of people walk into countries in a transactional way,
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: expecting like, hey, I'm here to find myself, you know,
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: and they engage with it in a shallow way or
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: they engage with extractive elements of the tourism industry. or
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: they're there to take their, you know, Instagram photos and leave.
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: A performance of finding yourself. So I think that solo
• 32:42
  Speaker 4: travel has this capacity to be transformative if you do
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: it the right way. I also think that like doing
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: it in responsible ways is really important, too, because tourism
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: can be so bad for the world.
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: It can truly be like a new form of colonialism.
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: This is why this podcast is sort of like an
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: anthology of different people's stories. What I'm not doing is
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: the 10 hottest places to travel. I'm not even giving
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: recommendations on where you should go because I think that
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: like a lot of different identity markers change how people
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: move through the world. So like X is not the
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: safest place to go. Y is not the most fun
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: place to go. What I'm really trying to encourage is
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: for more women to find their reason for why they
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: want to go to a place and go there and
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: be the most open that they can about it.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: And there's a lot to be said about that conversation.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: And Samantha and I have been discussing this too, because
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: we've had our solo travel experiences. And there are questions
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: that come up when you're choosing the place. And there
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: are considerations that come up when you're choosing the place.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: And your podcast really goes into some of those questions
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: and conversations, like traveling as a woman of color, or
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: saying yes to adventures.
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: Or going to.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: politically charged areas, maybe. So do you think it's important
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: that we have those conversations about the deeper level of
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: what traveling around the world is and how it not
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: only impacts if we travel, how we travel, but why
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: we travel? 100%.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: I mean, starting with the element of like racial diversity
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: and traveling, you know, I'm interviewing a woman who not,
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: she's a Black woman who goes to different countries and
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: interviews the Black community there as a way of exploring
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: what places feel good to travel to as a Black woman.
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: It is so much of the experience of how you
• 34:42
  Speaker 4: feel you belong in a place, how you move around,
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: so much of that is dictated by identity markers that
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: are visible to the outside world. So to say that
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: This is, again, why I sort of push back on, like,
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: this is the safest place to travel. This is the
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: most spiritual. Whatever it is, it depends on the person.
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: It really does. And I think that the more that
• 35:03
  Speaker 4: we talk about the nuances of solo travel, the more
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: that we show, like, hey, it can be lonely or
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: it can be risky. The more that we put that
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: out there, the more that we're just equipping people to
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: be able to go into the world expecting things. the friction,
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: because there is a lot of friction with solo travel.
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: There is a lot of friction with travel too, and
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: there should be friction. Like you are entering a place
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: where other people live. You are entering a place that's
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: really different from where you are from. You should feel that.
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: The tourism industry exists to make a frictionless experience. Let
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: me come serve you your pina colada.
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: By the poolside. It's like, well, I could be anywhere
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: in the world.
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: If I have money, this is going to be the
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: same experience replicated. I also don't think it's like what
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: people necessarily, I mean, I'm generalizing maybe, or I'll speak
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: from my own experience. That's not what I am seeking
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: when I go and travel. I'm seeking to be stimulated
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: and challenged and to meet new people and feel connected
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: in a new way to a foreign place. So if
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: I'm going to an all inclusive or even if I'm
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: going to like a big city, but I'm sticking to
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: what they think that I want to see of the city,
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: then like that's I think that you're leaving a lot
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: on the table.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, you have quite the experience in world traveling.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: Just what are some of the more surprising things you've
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: learned while traveling solo?
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: That's a good question. I've learned a lot about what
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: I'm capable of.
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: I did the Camino de Santiago de Compostela, which is
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: about 500 miles walking across the north of Spain. And
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: in terms of my own capabilities, you know, I learned
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: that my body can really endure a lot of consistent breakdown.
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: I think that I've also learned, so I spent some time, basically,
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: I fell asleep on a bus in Argentina. I did
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: not go, I passed the place that I was going
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: to get off. And I got off at the end
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: of the line, which was a very, very small town
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: called Umahuaca in the north of Argentina. And I was
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: going to get off and go, you know, the next
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: day back to the capital. But I ended up meeting
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: this really nice family and I stayed with them. And
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: from them, I learned that, first of all, connection to
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: the land can.
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: Be like a whole way to tether a life.
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: It's like connecting and feeling connected to the land. And
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: then I also learned that, you know, there was so
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: much power in the way that they lived intergenerationally. It
• 37:41
  Speaker 4: was like four different generations of people that lived there.
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: And then just by being sitting and being curious with people,
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: you can really get so deep with them and you
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: can build like you can dig your little tendrils of
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: your life into theirs. And I ended up volunteering at
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: the local school in their community and then helping them
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: like build a website is all these things that, you know,
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: it felt very real lifey in a way that I
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: don't think I would have ever been able to approximate
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: if I had like stayed at a hotel or even
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: if I had gone back to the capital city.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: That's interesting you say that because it's the perfect segue
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: into the next question the first time i solo traveled
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: the person who i met who's kind of like my
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: mentor at the time in this area he he his
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: advice to me was go sit somewhere on a lawn
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: and someone will come up to you and just listen
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: to them and start up a conversation And that's what
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: I did. And it was wonderful advice. And he was
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: absolutely right.
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: I met people I wouldn't have met.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: It's not something I would do normally. It was nice.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: It felt like, oh, I'm living the life I've seen
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: in movies. You go and meet people in this way.
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: So I know that this is kind of a broad
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: question and you've already said, rightfully so, there's so many
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: nuances involved. to solo traveling, but do you have any
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: advice for women who want to solo travel?
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: Oh, God, I'm trying to think of on what scale
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: because I could go really broad. OK, so the biggest
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: question I get is about safety and about risk. And
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: I think there's some really tactile things to put into place.
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: First of all, share your location before you go with
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: somebody back home. Just some peace of mind that somebody
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: has an eye on you.
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: If you are.
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: Going to go on a date, if you are going
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: to go to a new neighborhood, if you're going to
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: do anything that feels somewhat risky, tell that person and
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: have them check in on you in two hours. I
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: think also having a support system that you know you
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: can call. So recently I was traveling to Greece. I
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: connected at London Heathrow and I dislocated my knee. And
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: I ended up having to fly right back to New York.
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: So I flew to and from London Heathrow in one day.
• 40:10
  Speaker 4: And the only reason that I got through that was
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: because I knew that I had a support system I
• 40:16
  Speaker 4: could call my family to. That being said, it was
• 40:19
  Speaker 4: 2 a.m. in the U.S., so they didn't pick up.
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: I had to fend for myself. So that is also
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: a piece of advice that I would give, which is like,
• 40:27
  Speaker 4: if stuff gets really hard and you end up being
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: alone to have to make a really hard decision, it
• 40:33
  Speaker 4: will be hard, but you will get through it.
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: And it will be hard.
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: That's sort of a big thing that I say about
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: risk is like, there are risks. And you probably are
• 40:45
  Speaker 4: capable of working through them, even if it's a scenario
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: that you struggle to imagine to get through while sitting
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: in the comfort of your own home. There's risk and
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: there's ways to be smart about it. A lot of
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: women don't tell people that they meet that they are
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: traveling alone just as a way of mitigating some of
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: that risk. Other advice is... I love what you said
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: about going and sitting somewhere alone, embracing your solitude, like
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: don't lose yourself in your phone. If you go and
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: you eat somewhere new alone, don't have your nose in
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: your phone, like be sort of open and receptive.
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: You will also feel, again, like a loosening.
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: Of that pressure of worrying that somebody's going to see
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: you alone or worrying that you might appear to be
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: like lonely. Like you step into this you have the
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: capacity to step into this persona of like being a visitor,
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: being a stranger somewhere new. And there's so much liberation
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: with that. So I think just open yourself up to
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: the possibility of what it could be.
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: I think that people are curious to meet people from
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: other places. So when you're visiting, they want to come
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: up and talk to you too.
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: And that's how you have those interactions that you weren't
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: expecting and that oftentimes are really lovely.
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: Totally.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: Really lovely and stick with you. And it does feel
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: really empowering. It feels like I did this. I found
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: this place. Somebody came up and talked to me. I
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: have a memory, an interaction that meant something to me.
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: For sure.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: Well, looking back, do you think you would do things
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: differently traveling solo today versus when you first started doing it?
• 42:32
  Speaker 4: When I first started solo traveling, I was staying in
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: a lot of hostels, which is why I think it's
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: sort of interesting to talk to women in their 30s
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: and 40s about solo travel. It's like what I'm doing
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: a lot of is talking to women in their 30s
• 42:45
  Speaker 4: and 40s because it's a little bit of a different shift.
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: So I think I was.
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: Able to pull a lot more like sort of shoestring,
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: like sleepless nights staying at hostels, staying in sort of
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: like dodgy places, or not dodgy places, but sleeping in
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: odd quarters. I have had bedbugs far too many times.
• 43:08
  Speaker 4: I've contracted them from far too many hostels, and now
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: I'm a little bit scared.
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: Now you can sleep.
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: Now, some places have like smaller dorms or more private
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: dorms that feel maybe a little bit more like, okay,
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: I'm in my 30s and 40s, like, you know, the
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: stakes are not so high. I'm not going to bring
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: this back to my house. What did I used to
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: do in my 20s that I don't quite do anymore?
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: I mean, a lot of things have stayed consistent, I
• 43:39
  Speaker 4: will say. Like, I always do a walking tour, one
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: of the free walking tours when I get to a place,
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: because I think it's a great place to, like, a
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: great way to get situated in a place and get
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: sort of like a lay of the history and the architecture.
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: And then from there, you might also meet other people
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: if it feels sort of scary to you to like
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: be talking to strangers, that's a great place to just
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: kick it off for yourself. You know, I travel with
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: a doorstop. So sometimes, you know, you put a doorstop
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: on the inside of your door just so that if
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: somebody were to come in, it will catch. That's like
• 44:14
  Speaker 4: a little safety thing that it's always good to have.
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: I travel with a big scarf because it's always useful
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: in some way, whether it's like a cold airplane. I've
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: used it as a blanket when I don't have an
• 44:26
  Speaker 4: actual comforter with me. Yeah, there are little things that
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: I think like, you know, as you travel, it actually
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: the places change. You're never in the same situation as
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: you were last time you traveled. But the muscle does build.
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: You do get better at.
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: Like going out into the world and fending for yourself
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: as you do it more. Kind of nice.
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: We're about to travel, so that's things I'm keeping a
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: note of now. Nice. Okay. I love a good scarf, too,
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: and it's that season. So I'm excited about that. Yeah.
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: That's great.
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: Well, one of the things you talk about is who
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: I would consider like one of the leaders. I called
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: him the father of unique traveling, which is about Rick Steves.
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: You actually mentioned him in your first episode, which, by
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: the way, he's the reason I went to the Cinque Terre.
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: So when you mentioned that, I was like, yeah, I know.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: And that was my solo experience that I decided to
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: go in college right after I graduated. I'm like, I'm
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: going to go to Florence, Italy. I'm not really sure why.
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: I think because I had watched... While you were sleeping?
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: I know, Annie, I made you watch it. Julie, have
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: you ever seen it?
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: I don't think I've seen it.
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: That's not the example you were.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: You thought I was going somewhere else completely? No. I
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: watched While You Were Sleeping, and her whole dream was
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: that her mother and father had wanted to go to Florence, Italy.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: So she had it in her mind, she must go
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: to Florence, Italy. And that put into my mind as
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: a child, I must go to Florence, Italy. That's amazing.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: And we mentioned many of the movies, but this was
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: the movie that made me. And I went. And I went.
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: And by the way, I stayed way too long in Florence.
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: And I was like, why did... I should have researched
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: a little more about what to do in Florence.
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: Because I did spread it out. I did go to
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: Paris and I did go to the Cinque Terre. And
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: I went to a couple more spots. But I was like,
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: had I known, I would have shortened my trip to
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: Florence and gone longer.
• 46:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: And I loved, loved that. But because I was influenced
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: by also Rick Steves at this point, I was like, yes,
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: I must go to this location. I must go to
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: this small village in Italy and see the coast. But
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: with that, you specifically mentioned his three types of travel,
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: which included the tourist, the traveler and the pilgrims. And
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: I really thought that was a really interesting kind of
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: throwback of his philosophy in traveling, as well as something
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: that we should be looking at today as we learn
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: to travel ethically, as you talked about, and doing it
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: in a way that really gives you the best experience.
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: So can you talk a little bit more about those
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: types of, you know, travelers traveling and what the differences
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: are to you?
• 47:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So Rick Steves outlines three different ways to travel.
• 47:06
  Speaker 4: You can either travel as a tourist. And when you're
• 47:09
  Speaker 4: there as a tourist, you're there to consume. So you
• 47:12
  Speaker 4: want to be entertained.
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: You want to relax.
• 47:14
  Speaker 4: You know, you'll stand in line for the viral ube croissant.
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: And that's just about the only way that you'll be inconvenienced. Or,
• 47:25
  Speaker 4: you know, I would say probably more realistically, you'll walk
• 47:28
  Speaker 4: around the city, you'll buy the things, you'll eat the
• 47:30
  Speaker 4: things that there are to do. And you really just
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: you consume your way through a city. And you're there
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: for convenience, relaxation, a lot of people travel as a tourist.
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: Then if you're on the other side of the spectrum,
• 47:43
  Speaker 4: there's the pilgrim. The pilgrim is there to, they're looking
• 47:46
  Speaker 4: for some sort of inner transformation. They're really like looking
• 47:49
  Speaker 4: at their home from afar. They want to sort of like,
• 47:52
  Speaker 4: they want to go on some sort of inner journey.
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: So those are two ends of the spectrum. And then
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: right in the middle is the traveler. And the traveler,
• 48:00
  Speaker 4: you know, you'll find the traveler at the local grocery
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: store because they want to basically experience what it's like
• 48:05
  Speaker 4: to live in a place as a temporary local. And
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: so they're talking to the people that live there. They're
• 48:14
  Speaker 4: sort of moving through what a day to day would
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: be like in this place. And I don't think that
• 48:20
  Speaker 4: any of them is necessarily wrong. I think we all
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: travel for all different reasons. Some people, there's push motivations.
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: This is what the travel psychologist said. There's push motivations,
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: which is, you know, you want to escape something in
• 48:33
  Speaker 4: your life and a little bit of escapism is okay.
• 48:36
  Speaker 4: But then there's pull motivations, which is like, I've been
• 48:38
  Speaker 4: really wanting to see this place. I want to connect
• 48:40
  Speaker 4: with this thing in this place. And so being very
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: clear on what your motivations are. and what your intention
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: is when you get to a place. If you're there
• 48:47
  Speaker 4: to consume, then maybe there are ways to do it
• 48:50
  Speaker 4: where you're shopping at local businesses, you're staying at places
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: that are owned by locals, and that those are the
• 48:56
  Speaker 4: people who are benefiting from your dollars. You know, there
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: is a way to be a tourist and also be ethical.
• 49:02
  Speaker 4: But then, you know, on the other side of the spectrum,
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: I don't think that the pilgrim is necessarily doing like
• 49:07
  Speaker 4: the virtuous thing either, which is sort of just like
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: looking to find themselves with this place as a backdrop.
• 49:14
  Speaker 4: So when I travel, I tend to travel more as
• 49:17
  Speaker 4: a traveler because I do want to like seek some
• 49:20
  Speaker 4: sort of understanding for like, how do people live? What
• 49:23
  Speaker 4: would it be like if I lived here and engage
• 49:27
  Speaker 4: with people that live there? And, you know, I usually
• 49:30
  Speaker 4: try and learn a little bit of language before I
• 49:32
  Speaker 4: go so that I can say, you know, one, two, three.
• 49:35
  Speaker 4: I can say, can you help me? I can say,
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: how are you? And usually that kickstarts some sort of
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: interaction that probably will eventually turn to English or Spanish
• 49:44
  Speaker 4: for me. So I think that just thinking about, yeah,
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: thinking about how am I going to engage with this
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: way that is not just purely consumption, especially on like
• 49:54
  Speaker 4: the tourist level, is important. Because otherwise you just are
• 50:00
  Speaker 4: enabling an industry that can be really extractive. Right.
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: Which, you know, we can look at Spain and seeing
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: some of the of what's happening there.
• 50:10
  Speaker 4: In Barcelona, they're saying no tourists. In Puerto Rico, it's
• 50:14
  Speaker 4: like it's very similar. Yeah.
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: Well, with all that, is there any place you haven't
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: gone yet that you want to go to that is
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: on your list?
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: Oh, my God. So many.
• 50:34
  Speaker 4: I don't even know where to begin. Everywhere, like the
• 50:36
  Speaker 4: whole world. I've seen fewer places than what I want
• 50:41
  Speaker 4: to see. I would love to go to India. I
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: don't even know where I would begin, which is the
• 50:47
  Speaker 4: amazing part. I would love to spend months traveling through India.
• 50:52
  Speaker 4: I just interviewed a woman who's Indian-American. And went back
• 50:57
  Speaker 4: to India for the first time and crafted like a
• 51:00
  Speaker 4: three-part trip for herself to connect with this place not
• 51:03
  Speaker 4: as somebody's kid, just as herself. She sort of faced
• 51:07
  Speaker 4: her fears of like safety and loneliness. And she really
• 51:12
  Speaker 4: developed like an itinerary that sounds incredibly exciting.
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: So there's a lot of places that I would love
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: to go.
• 51:19
  Speaker 4: This is my last commentary on like the way that
• 51:21
  Speaker 4: we talk about travel now.
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: I think a lot of people lead with like, I've
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: been to 120 countries.
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: Right. And I think leading with like the places you
• 51:29
  Speaker 4: haven't been and making sure that you're always clicked into
• 51:32
  Speaker 4: the wonder of like what you haven't yet seen. I
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: hate it when people say, I did this place. I
• 51:38
  Speaker 4: did Rome. I did, you know, it's like, did you
• 51:41
  Speaker 4: do it? Or you power walked through it and saw
• 51:44
  Speaker 4: the three, you know, things on the to-do list.
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 51:48
  Speaker 4: Places are not a thing to do. It is a
• 51:50
  Speaker 4: place to see. It's a thing to experience. And you're
• 51:53
  Speaker 4: never going to experience the full thing. So leading with humility,
• 51:57
  Speaker 4: I think, as a traveler, even though we're talking about
• 52:00
  Speaker 4: how transformative it is, at the end of the day,
• 52:03
  Speaker 4: as much as you can decenter yourself while you're having
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: this transformative experience, I think that's really powerful.
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: It was kind of a humbling experience for me the
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: first when I went to China and I was there
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: for eight months. And I was like, this country is
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: so huge. I could go there and still experience so
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: many new things and so many different styles of food.
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: So like you can go to a country and you
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: haven't done it.
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: Exactly. Exactly. It's not your to-do list.
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: Check.
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yes.
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: Well, here's a difficult question. Do you have a favorite
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: memory while traveling solo?
• 52:45
  Speaker 4: Okay, so I recently hitchhiked for the first time. I
• 52:49
  Speaker 4: talked about this in the first episode when I was
• 52:51
  Speaker 4: in Ireland. It was out of pure necessity. The walk
• 52:54
  Speaker 4: was 30 minutes. My bus was leaving in 20 minutes.
• 52:57
  Speaker 4: So I needed to get to the bus stop as
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: soon as possible. And I was on the side of
• 53:01
  Speaker 4: the road with my thumb out for so long. And
• 53:05
  Speaker 4: I had later learned that Ireland used to be this
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: like huge hitchhiking culture that And then there were like
• 53:11
  Speaker 4: a series of hitchhiking murders and then everyone stopped hitchhiking
• 53:15
  Speaker 4: in Ireland.
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: So I had my thumb out. I had no idea
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: about this.
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: People are laughing at me out the window.
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: I mean, it is ridiculous.
• 53:23
  Speaker 4: And then a car pulls up and it turns out
• 53:26
  Speaker 4: it's a group of Americans that I had just met
• 53:29
  Speaker 4: on this boat that we were all on. We were
• 53:31
  Speaker 4: going from the mainland to the Aran Islands and back.
• 53:34
  Speaker 4: So it was wild to see not only a familiar face,
• 53:37
  Speaker 4: but like a group of Americans who I'm not usually
• 53:40
  Speaker 4: like jazzed to see abroad, but it felt so familiar.
• 53:44
  Speaker 4: They took me in and not only did they start
• 53:47
  Speaker 4: driving me towards the bus stop, but then we realized
• 53:50
  Speaker 4: that we were all ultimately driving to the same place,
• 53:53
  Speaker 4: which was about two and a half hours away.
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: They said, do you want to ride? And I was like, yeah, actually,
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: that would be great. I would love that.
• 53:59
  Speaker 4: It was an older couple and their son who's in
• 54:03
  Speaker 4: his 30s probably. And they go, well, we're going to
• 54:05
  Speaker 4: stop at the Cliffs of Moher on our way there.
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: Do you want to go?
• 54:08
  Speaker 4: And I hadn't had a chance to see them yet.
• 54:10
  Speaker 4: And I was sort of, because I was solo traveling
• 54:13
  Speaker 4: on a budget, I was forgoing a couple of things.
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: I said, sure.
• 54:16
  Speaker 4: And so I have these amazing photos of the Cliffs
• 54:20
  Speaker 4: of Moher with this gorgeous family that I will never
• 54:23
  Speaker 4: talk to again. We didn't even exchange information. But on
• 54:27
  Speaker 4: our way, we're driving back to Galway. These two and
• 54:29
  Speaker 4: a half hours, we're just talking about We have no
• 54:32
  Speaker 4: context for each other. It's amazing the things you talk
• 54:35
  Speaker 4: about when you have no context. And we're just like
• 54:37
  Speaker 4: sort of like going on about our trips. And it's
• 54:40
  Speaker 4: like this Ireland trip was our entire world. And then
• 54:43
  Speaker 4: we arrive back to Galway and they're like, do you
• 54:45
  Speaker 4: want to come out to dinner with us? And I said, no,
• 54:49
  Speaker 4: thank you, though. Like I just was ready to it
• 54:51
  Speaker 4: was no hard feelings. But I was like, I'm going
• 54:53
  Speaker 4: to actually I have I have other plans.
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: But thank you.
• 54:57
  Speaker 4: Mm hmm. And it was this really magical experience where
• 55:00
  Speaker 4: everything was just one unexpected thing after the next.
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: And I just sort of had to say yes.
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: I love that. I do love the amount of people
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: that you met but never saw again and had been
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: inspired by, including the older gentleman who had you going
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: to Ireland to begin with, talking about him. And I
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: thought that, like, did you try to see if you
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: could find him?
• 55:23
  Speaker 3: Yes, so hard.
• 55:25
  Speaker 4: So I was inspired to go to Ireland because when
• 55:27
  Speaker 4: I did the Camino de Santiago de Compostela, I started
• 55:31
  Speaker 4: syncing up my walking pace with this elderly Irish man.
• 55:35
  Speaker 4: And every night before bed, he would call his publican,
• 55:38
  Speaker 4: which I found out was your bartender at your local pub.
• 55:41
  Speaker 4: I was so tickled that he had such a close
• 55:44
  Speaker 4: relationship with his bartender. Like, this experience was clearly not about, like,
• 55:49
  Speaker 4: the alcohol. It was about the place. And I had
• 55:51
  Speaker 4: heard so much about Irish pubs, so I, 15 years later,
• 55:54
  Speaker 4: was like, I need to finally make a trip to
• 55:58
  Speaker 4: Ireland and see what these pubs are about. And... I
• 56:01
  Speaker 4: gave my trip a mission, which is something I've learned
• 56:04
  Speaker 4: is how to have like a very short cut for
• 56:07
  Speaker 4: having instead of just like an itinerary, having like an
• 56:09
  Speaker 4: adventure on a trip.
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 56:11
  Speaker 4: If you give yourself a mission and the stakes are
• 56:14
  Speaker 4: not that high and you are here to complete your mission,
• 56:18
  Speaker 4: now all of a sudden you can ask people for help.
• 56:20
  Speaker 4: You can ask people for advice. You can ask people
• 56:23
  Speaker 4: for context. For me, it was about returning to the
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: same pub night after night to become a regular at
• 56:29
  Speaker 4: this pub. Mm-hmm. So anyways, I like decide this is
• 56:32
  Speaker 4: going to be my mission. I'm like, I should really
• 56:34
  Speaker 4: find this elderly Irish man. I should at the very
• 56:37
  Speaker 4: least just message him and, you know, maybe ask him
• 56:39
  Speaker 4: for advice or just say hi.
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: I cannot find this man anywhere.
• 56:44
  Speaker 4: I'm looking at my old Facebook photos because that's where
• 56:46
  Speaker 4: I had published everything.
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: All my photos from the Camino. I can't find him anywhere.
• 56:52
  Speaker 4: I mean, and this is the reality of solo travel
• 56:55
  Speaker 4: is that you have these like really finite connections with people.
• 56:59
  Speaker 4: And you might, even if you stay connected, like there
• 57:02
  Speaker 4: might not be a time where you ever reach.
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: Back out to them.
• 57:06
  Speaker 4: But because these, you know, you have this like ending,
• 57:09
  Speaker 4: this natural ending on your connection before you both go
• 57:13
  Speaker 4: back to your homes halfway across the world, you might
• 57:16
  Speaker 4: just go really deep with them and then never connect again.
• 57:19
  Speaker 4: I don't know if you guys have experienced this when
• 57:22
  Speaker 4: you travel, just like sort of opening yourself up to someone.
• 57:26
  Speaker 4: Sometimes it's easier to open yourself up to that person
• 57:29
  Speaker 4: because you know that you're not going to have endless
• 57:33
  Speaker 4: context or time with them.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: I definitely have some memories when I did that travel,
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: specifically because I met people through the hostels myself and
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: met some really great characters. There was one girl that
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: I think about often because I was such... a wet blanket.
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: Like I was fearful of everything. Coming from like a
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: small town to going by myself to Europe. And I
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: was like, we were riding and she randomly met a
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: dude who had a friend. We were riding around. I'm like,
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: I'm about to be kidnapped and I'm mad at you
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: because I don't know what you just put me in.
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: And so I was like the dude who was, I'm
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: sure I was being fixed up with, but I still
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: was like, I don't want to be here. He was like, no, no,
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: we're going to go have fun. And I'm like, no,
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: you're not. Drop me off. Drop me off. You can't
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: go either. You have a fiance. She did have a fiance,
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: but my bad. But I was such a wet blanket.
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: I wonder, I'm like, I wonder if she hates me
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: and thinks that I'm the worst part of the travel.
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: That's what I think about.
• 58:30
  Speaker 4: I don't know. I think you just have to listen
• 58:32
  Speaker 4: to your instincts always when you travel. Somebody told me
• 58:35
  Speaker 4: that you have a higher likelihood of getting into a
• 58:37
  Speaker 4: dangerous situation simply because you're exhausted and you're having a
• 58:41
  Speaker 4: hard time listening to your gut feeling than you are
• 58:44
  Speaker 4: like stumbling into a literally dangerous situation. Like I think
• 58:48
  Speaker 4: that this is something to be aware of when you're
• 58:51
  Speaker 4: solo traveling.
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: You might get.
• 58:53
  Speaker 4: Fatigued really easily because you're spending all day making decisions
• 58:56
  Speaker 4: for yourself. When else in life are you truly just
• 59:00
  Speaker 4: spending all day? Like in life, you have relationships, you
• 59:04
  Speaker 4: have social ties, you have connections to people that you
• 59:07
  Speaker 4: have routines where you don't have to make so many decisions.
• 59:10
  Speaker 4: decisions for yourself. When you're solo traveling, it's always like.
• 59:13
  Speaker 4: Do I want to walk down the street? What do
• 59:14
  Speaker 4: I want to eat?
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: Am I hungry?
• 59:16
  Speaker 4: Do I want to eat at this place? And you
• 59:17
  Speaker 4: have nobody else that you have to check in with.
• 59:19
  Speaker 4: And so that can be really fatiguing. And even just
• 59:22
  Speaker 4: being away from your comfort zone can be really tiring.
• 59:25
  Speaker 4: And not having like a place where you can come
• 59:27
  Speaker 4: back home and like truly unwind, especially if you're staying
• 59:30
  Speaker 4: at a hostel, can be like existentially tiring. So making
• 59:35
  Speaker 4: sure that you're finding time to recharge to really be
• 59:38
  Speaker 4: able to like You need to be able to listen
• 59:40
  Speaker 4: to yourself. When you feel that little voice that's like,
• 59:43
  Speaker 4: this is not right, you have to be able to
• 59:45
  Speaker 4: listen to that and hear that. And sometimes it's hard
• 59:48
  Speaker 4: when you're exhausted.
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: If I hope this girl, if she ever does think
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: about me, hears that part.
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: Of course.
• 59:56
  Speaker 4: Everybody has our own comfort zone sometimes. And I think
• 59:59
  Speaker 4: being solita out on the road is about like finding
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 4: different ways to like hang off of that scaffolding. But
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 4: you should not be like fully abandoning your scaffolding. You
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 4: should keep your boundaries. Like you should challenge yourself, but
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 4: not be like unrecognizable to yourself.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 3: Yes. Excellent.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: Excellent advice. So I feel like we could all swap
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: stories forever. Maybe if we ever see each other, IRL,
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: we could do this because or come back on the
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: show anytime. But before we completely wrap up, do you
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: have any new projects coming that you want to share
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: with our listeners?
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 4: No, I'm just publishing a new episode of this podcast
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 4: every Tuesday. And I'm putting like silly little videos on
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 4: social media too. So I hope that, you know, if
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 4: any of this is intriguing about solo travel and the
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 4: different ways that it can challenge you and shift how
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 4: you think about travel and all these things or even
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 4: just make you feel excited to go see the world,
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 4: then I would love some support in listening to the podcast.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: I think people are really wanting that content and wanting
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: to travel and solo travel. It was interesting, my mom
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: mentioned it to me.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: Really?
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 3: Solo traveling?
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: And I never thought.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: I'm happy about it. I'm really happy about it, but
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: I just wouldn't have suspected it about her.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 3: So is she solo traveling?
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: She wants to. And she's narrowed it down to a
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: couple of places. The only thing she's worried about, I suppose,
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: is like getting lost, like the language and the getting
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: lost and stuff like that.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 4: She should travel to an English speaking place if that's
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 4: like there are places that are more challenging to like
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 4: a solo traveler than others just because of like language or,
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 4: you know, if you're in like a remote place that
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 4: can be challenging, you know, there's like more ways to
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 4: do it in a little beginner sense.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: And I know in your episodes, you give like some
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: great sites for people who might, for the generations who
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: are okay with sharing couches or going, finding deals for flights.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: Can you share some of those sites with us real quick?
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: Because I think that's so beneficial.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 4: A good resource for like anybody who's interested in this
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 4: but has no idea where to start with just like
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 4: solo female travel is Wonderful.com. because it's a network of
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 4: solo female travelers. So you can go to a new
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 4: city and you can connect with other people that are
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 4: solo traveling there. Or even some locals, I think, are
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 4: a part of this as well. And Wonderful is great.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 4: Kindred is a really great home swapping app.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: And so you can put your.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 4: Home up there and you can actually swap homes, sort
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 4: of like that movie, The Holiday.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe you'll even fall in love with her brother.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 3: I mean, who knows? But And he will be Jude Law.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 3: Who knows?
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 4: But you can swap homes with people. So you can
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 4: go and actually live in someone's home while they're not there,
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 4: which is nice. And then couchsurfing is still a thing.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 4: So couchsurfing.com, that's a good way to just be able
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 4: to stay on someone's couch, stay in someone's home. There's
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 4: a website that I used to use called Workaway. And
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 4: I don't know what the new website is, but you
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 4: could Google Workaway and I'm sure it'll direct you. Basically,
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 4: you can go and work in hostels, work on a farm. Basically,
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 4: people can post that they need help somewhere and you
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 4: will go. work for them and in exchange you'll get
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 4: like a free place to stay. They might even give
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 4: you like room and board. I did that in Chile.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 4: I worked at a hostel and I got a free
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 4: place to stay and I got like one hot meal
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 4: a day. And then there's a website called Nomad Table
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 4: where I think it's an app where you check the
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 4: app when you get to a new city and there's
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 4: usually a table of people that are meeting up and
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 4: they're either people that live there who have traveled before
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 4: or they're travelers. And you can go and just share
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 4: a hot meal with somebody, some new people at a
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 4: city so that you're not arriving somewhere and you're not
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 4: knowing how to actually meet or connect with people.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: Those are great resources. This has been such a fantastic conversation.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: I would love to have you back sometime. But in
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: the meantime, where can the good listeners find you?
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 4: They can find me on Instagram at Shmooly with four O's.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 4: Or you can find on Instagram and TikTok. You can
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 4: find me at Solita Travels. So S-O-L-I-T-A underscore travels. That's
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 4: where you'll get updates for the podcast.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: And go check out the podcast listeners if you haven't already.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: And thank you so much, Julie, for being here.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. It means so much.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 3: Thanks for all your great questions.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: Yes, of course. Thanks for all your great answers. Well, listeners,
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: if you would like to contact us, you can. You
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: can email us at hello at stuffmonevertoldyou.com. You can find
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: us on Blue Sky at Mom Stuff Podcast or on
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: Instagram and TikTok at Stuff I Never Told You. We're
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: also on YouTube. We have some merchandise at Cotton Bureau
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: and we have a book you can get wherever you
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: get your books. Thanks as always to our super producer
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: Rima and our executive Bruce Maya.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: And thanks to you for listening. Stuff I Never Told
• 1:05:31
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• 1:05:33
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• 1:05:35
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