Latest / Story Games / Episode 2: Interview with Elliot Davis
Transcript
- Maggie Studio: you Hello friends and welcome back to Story Games, a podcast all about narrative-driven tabletop role-playing games. My name is Momo and it's nice to see you again. Today I have something I'm very excited to share with you. I was able to sit down with game designer Elliot Davis who created The Time We Have. On the last episode of this podcast, we did a playthrough of The Time We Have, so I do recommend listening to that for some context. Elliot is an incredible designer and it was honestly so cool to talk to him about his game. All right, without further ado, let's get into this interview. Well, thank you so much, Elliot, for joining me today. I'm so excited to talk to you. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Yes. So the main thing I want to talk to you about is your game, The Time We Have, because it is such a insane game to me. It is absolutely wild. I had the great of playing it with one of my dear friends and we were both fundamentally changed afterward. But that is to say I have a few questions. Yeah, hit me. I love to hear that. I love fundamentally changed. is such a... That's always exciting to me. Wonderful. First, would you please introduce yourself and talk a little bit about yourself and the games that you make? Yeah, so my name is Elliot Davis. I go buy more blueberries everywhere online. That is my artist name and also the name of the company under which I... publish and design tabletop role-playing games like The Time We Have, but also games like Project Echo and Romcom Drama Bomb and Vidi Tivoletti's A Once Magic. Beautiful. I also got to play A Land Once Magic recently and loved that as well. You're all doing amazing work, truly. Thank you so much. Awesome. Okay, so I would like you to describe The Time We Have in your own words. Yeah, so The Time We Have... is a tragic two-player role-playing game. It is about brothers in the zombie apocalypse. One of them has been infected, one of them is not. And you play out the story of the final days before that brother turns, and you play the game sitting on opposite sides of a closed door. The whole game is card-powered, so it is a mix of prompts that are spoken aloud, some prompts that are passed under the door and read silently, some that inform your role-play as you go. And the game always ends with a final question. And that question is, do you open the door, which is passed to the surviving brother? Devastating. Devastating. ⁓ All right. Yeah, I just I have so many good things to say about this game. It is beautifully designed. It is tragic and heartbreaking and devastating and all of those emotions. But I have to ask you. What made you want to create such a sad game? Because it is so sad. Yeah. I like sad storytelling a lot. ⁓ I like I like to be emotionally affected by art. is like some of my favorite art experiences are when I'm emotionally affected. I love sad music and sad movies. ⁓ I also just this was a personal game for ⁓ I have three brothers of varying relationships of younger brother and two older brothers and particularly one of my brothers has lived abroad for much for much of my life. And so I saw him, you know, once a year, if that for many years. And so I had a lot of fear about if he were to die and I were not to get to have spoken to him in like the recent period of time or, you know, even like ⁓ just like spoken to him and things I never would have gotten the chance to say and things like that were very close. ⁓ Luckily, he did not die while he was living abroad like that. So this is not a game born from that specific tragedy, thankfully. My brother is still alive. ⁓ But it was a lot of thinking about what that means to say goodbye. I mean, you I've had a lot of loss in my life in general, not my brother, and just the things that you wish you could say to a person if you knew. which is not an opportunity you really get very often in life is like, you know, is what you would say if you knew that. And I was inspired by, you know, zombie media a lot. I mean, The Last of Us is like a very obvious touchstone for the game. It's all over the aesthetic. Specifically the plot line of, well, I can't remember the character's name. I know one of them is Henry, but there is a Brothers plot line ⁓ in The Last of Us in which one of the brothers gets infected. ⁓ And in general, I love those moments in zombie media where somebody gets infected and then the other person they're with has to find out and deal with it. But the thing that I always struggled with was I was like, I wanna spend more time with that, with the implications of that. ⁓ It was always just like, by the time everyone found out that person was a zombie. And I felt like if I were in that situation, I would have told the person pretty quickly. And because I would have wanted to have the time, you know, ⁓ to work out the things that we need to say and stuff like that. ⁓ Yeah, that's a long rambling answer a bit, but I love it. No, it's it's perfect. It's it makes a lot of sense, especially knowing your background with your brothers and your relationships. ⁓ A bit of a. Side point that is related, ⁓ I have a lot of chronic illness and I think it's interesting to get into that space, because I've had to be in that position where I've been like, hey, my health is getting worse and here's what that means. It's interesting to see that played out in a game. Of course, you know, it's much more dramatic and there's zombies involved, but it does kind of parallel some of my experiences with chronic illness as well, which is very cathartic to play out in like a game format. Totally. I've had a lot of people, ⁓ sorry. I've had a lot of people actually, ⁓ who either deal with chronic illness or have ⁓ known a loved one who has dealt with chronic illness that have said that the game speaks to them on that level in a really deep way of like, know, ⁓ some days are hard and sometimes the illness makes you act a certain way, which is a lot of, you know, the way this game is. And I've also have a friend who works worked for many years in like end of life care and like compared it to that environment as well. So. There's a lot of, I've really enjoyed and loved hearing all of the very personal connections people have found in the game. Yeah. It's special when you make a game that is so emotional because people will react emotionally to it. And I think that's very strong and very powerful, especially like as you, the creator to witness that, that must be really cool. It's unreal. mean, I... At PAX Unplugged this past year, I had somebody who took me aside at the booth to tell me about playing with their lifelong best friend, somebody that they told me is the reason they're still here in many ways, and that playing the game together, they started crying telling me about the experience of playing together, and then I started welling up, and it was just, it was very meaningful. ⁓ It's very, very meaningful to hear about people's play experiences, even if they don't wanna share with me the details, which I... I'm totally fine with because it's a super intimate, heavy role playing experience. like, I totally understand if you don't want to get into where you got with the story, but I love to hear about just people's reactions. Totally, totally. And it's one of those things where it's like different for each playthrough, each person, each relationship. I would love to tell you about my experiences and I will share everything because I just had such a cool. time playing. Yeah, please. don't know if this is the format for that, we could also talk after. Yes. Let's see. I'm trying to see if I can squeeze it on into any of these. Maybe like at the end, I will share like my personal story with it. I think that'd be a good way to format that. I do have a side note under my question of what made you want to make such a sad game. Are you okay? Cause like, and I hope that's okay for me to ask, but like it is such a, an It's just such a visceral experience and such a heartbreaking game. I just want to check in like you did. Yeah, I'm all right. I, I deal with a lot of, I tend to be a very pessimistic person, unfortunately, is the thing about me. I don't have a lot of faith in, you know, the trajectory of the world and things like that. And I think that there's a lot of, things I grasp for our meaning amidst ⁓ horrible things. it's like, it's, wanna, I wanna believe that these things matter. wanna believe that like, you know, relationships matter and like, and what we can offer to another person matters a lot. And I think that that's, that's a lot of what this game is about is it's like, you know, the world around this game in fiction is fucked and, you know, past saving, but there is meaning in the relationship between these two people and what they were able to do for each other, even if it was complicated, even if it was really hard. ⁓ Dylan Appellian and I in our play through on One Shot found a theme within this game that I don't think is in the text, but I think my feelings around it are probably within the text. ⁓ our playthrough was a lot about does it mean something to make art while the world is on fire and Does it mean mean something to be an artist while the world is so bad? ⁓ And I think some days for me the answer is yes, and some days I have doubts ⁓ but so yeah, it's a I I struggle with it I struggle with just like you know feeling like those things matter But I do do know to my core that relationships matter and so that's I think what I'm always Interested in exploring or at least with this game. I was interested in exploring 1 million percent and I think that was beautifully said and I'm sure so many of us struggle with you know, very similar feelings of the world is on fire and Nothing matters and everything is scary and dark ⁓ but one thing that I think this game does teach you is that like yeah, like those connections that you make between people are so important and so real and I find that I struggle with things not feeling real sometimes and being like, everything is fake and nothing matters. But sitting on the opposite side of a door from my best friend and like having this experience together and then afterwards just like holding each other crying, like that is real. And that is like, it makes me feel something and it makes me feel connected to someone. And I think that especially now is so important. Yeah, I 100 % agree. Absolutely. ⁓ Awesome. I wanted to move on now to the significance of using the door in the gameplay. Because that is such a unique game mechanic that I've never really played with before. And it made the game from a good game to a great game, my opinion, having that door mechanic there. Because it was just so... It made it so much emotionally harder not to be able to see my friend, to see him until like... touch him and hold him, like having that physical barrier there was so intense. So how did you come up with that and like, why add it? Yeah, so the door was an early ad in the concept when it went from the initial seeds of this idea were a solo journaling game. I had just designed Project Echo and I was really into solo journaling as a design space. And I was like, thinking about a solo journaling game about processing someone turning into a zombie. And then when it became a two player game, it quickly became this idea of like, know, quarantining from a person and like, I liked the idea of splitting a deck of cards and having to pass cards underneath the door, that tactility of that. ⁓ And the door does a number of really fun things, like design wise. ⁓ One is inspired by Alice is Missing as a game. Alice is Missing, for viewers who might not know, is a game where you text throughout play. So there is no out loud spoken portion of the game. And I love what that does for role play within that game. The fact that when you remove something like voice from role play, what you're able to get to in terms of character and immersion. And so. this was a really interesting thing. And like when I did the first play test with a door, the removal of sight of the other person changes the way you role play dramatically. think like gives people who are less comfortable going really deep in role play permission. They're not, they don't have like the look of their friends that they might perceive some sort of like judgment or need to perform or something. It's a very like personal isolated experience. ⁓ And this was something I talked to Thomas Manuel on Yes Indeed About, the door is this fun object of it is in real life and it is in fiction. It is like, it is a like, diegetic object in some ways, like where it, you are where your character is, you know, and they're like, in like, the exact circumstances. Say for, if you know, you play with one of the different sort of settings, you might imagine that door to be a different kind of door, but the physicality of like, where you are, the limitations, ⁓ the discomfort of it in a lot of ways, which is like a thing that ⁓ I think could be a critique maybe is that like this is uncomfortable to do. It's it's hard to hear. I have to lean up against the door. The person's voice is muffled. And it's like, yeah, that's the point. That's largely the point is that it is uncomfortable. It is hard. is ⁓ stressful. It's stressful to try and hear and also to try and like make someone feel seen and heard, which is kind of the job of the survivor in play is that you need to make the other person feel like they're not alone despite this barrier between you. So yeah, I think you're totally right. I think that the game is not half as good without it. ⁓ Like the PR I love the prompts. I feel really proud of the prompts of the game, like, ⁓ but the gameplay doesn't, doesn't, doesn't land without it. Absolutely not. It is brutal. It is so intense and it just makes the whole experience so visceral and real. like, I didn't make the connection of, you are where your characters are and it's so much more immersive that way. And it's just, I can't get enough of it. It was sucked so bad in the best way. Yeah. It's fun to pitch this game at cons. I just came home from MagFest. ⁓ because there's a certain kind of person that's like a real sicko like me that like immediately is like, ⁓ my God, that's so exciting. I really want to play that. And then there's a certain person that's like, ⁓ my God, that sounds so sad. And I'm like, yeah, but it's like fun sad. But it's like good sad. It makes you feel things, which is great. Yeah, I feel you as a fellow sicko myself. I have been trying to get more people to play this game with me and it's been, you know, some people will take it and some people won't, which I get. Yeah. And my poor friend who I played with, he said he was down for anything, which I know he was. I did not tell him much about this game before we played. He also had a great experience, I will say. Which was he? But he was the infected and I was the survivor. Tough. It was tough. Yeah. Yeah, and he is like just like an amazing role player. So he like I knew he would kill it. But like, yeah, it's it is fun to see what kind of people gravitate toward this game, because I get a lot of the similar comments on social media as well, where it's like about half of the people are like, ⁓ my God, this looks like such a great game. And the other half is like, please never speak about this again. I cry just listening to the premise, which is definitely polarizing, which might be hard for you as a game designer. But I think it just goes to show the people who it really resonates with, it really, really hits. Yeah, 100%. Which is some of my favorite kind of games. Me too. All right. ⁓ Okay, so I wanna circle back a little bit around to those prompt cards that you mentioned a little bit ago. Because they are so beautifully designed. They are hard-hitting, they make you think, they make you role play. where did you get some of this inspiration from for these prompt cards? Like, where did you draw from to dig deep into these prompts? Yeah, I was recently talking to somebody about prompt writing, like, as a design task. And, like, I am always thinking about, I try to imagine the conversation I want a player to have and then bring it back to a question from there and, how to design the question that leads to that sort of conversation. But I mean, some of the specifics of this, is my relationship with each of my three brothers ⁓ is throughout these prompts. They're like, I can tie at least two thirds of them to specific conversations or feelings or moments with my actual brothers. There's a card, and this is a fun little anecdote where when we did the trailer for the crowdfunding, which I worked with Harlan Guthrie to make, Harlan Guthrie of Malevolent, did a short audio trailer, and I wrote a script for it based on the prompt, ⁓ there was something I did before the apocalypse, will you forgive me? We that There's something that I never apologized for, will you forgive me? Yep. And the bit that I put in the audio trailer, that is a true, story about my two older brothers is in the audio trailer, the younger brother apologizes to the older brother for totaling his car and says, like, will you forgive me for never, I never apologize for totaling your car. And my two brothers, that is a real thing that happened when one of my brothers was 16 and one was 18, he totaled his car. And it was like a lifelong or like at least a decade of like resentment kind of over it. And so there's a lot of things like that in those cards of what I would want to talk to them about or what I think they would bring up to me if we had this sort of space. Totally. I think it's beautiful how much of you and your relationships you've put into this game. I didn't realize that. at first. And I think that is just it comes through in how real the conversations end up feeling between the survivor and the infected brothers. These prompts took me to a place where I didn't think I would go playing this game. And I think that is just a testament to how well they're written for sure. Thank you so much. Of course. I'm going to gas you up as much as I can because I really did. I'll take it. I'll take it. Hell yeah. ⁓ Okay, so this next question includes a spoiler. So I do want to preface it with there is a spoiler for the end of the game. You might know what I want to talk about. note mechanic where the infected brother has to write a note to the surviving brother and then give that note at the end of the game. I'm tearing up thinking about it. I it was so unexpected and it came out as such just absolutely nowhere to me. I was already in my feelings because like the brother had just you get the card, you do you open the door? And in our playthrough, we had made a promise that I wouldn't, I would, you survive. And then to get that letter, I was a puddle. I was inconsolable for a good five minutes. ⁓ Yeah, it's the worst thing in the game. Gut punch. It's the most evil thing. Evil. It is evil. Yes. I was hesitant to use that word, but you used it first. I'm going to call you evil. No, no, I'll take it. It's my favorite. It is my favorite bit of... ⁓ writing and design in the game is the way it is presented in the rules cards ⁓ to the infected brother. That is my, my favorite, most evil bit of game design in this game. is, it's, it's very good game design because it does pack such an emotional punch, but like bro, what gave you the idea to do that? Was there something that sparked like, I'm just going to make them cry now. Like, what did you do that? I, I'm trying to think of like where, when that came up in design. I want to say it was pretty early in like, so Vaditya Valetti and I are roommates now and we were good friends at the time where we did the first play test was like six cards just to like get the voice of it. And I think in that we talked about like, I talked about like this final card is, is the do you attack the queen or do you defend the queen of this game from For the Queen? That's where a lot of design inspiration came from. ⁓ But it's like, that's a punch. like, what's the, whereas like with Do You Defend the Queen, you get everybody's individual response is where that prompt really sings. And because Do You Open the Door is the end of the game and not everybody is gonna necessarily like. speak their answer fully aloud or what have you. I was like, want something else to like really like send it home to drive home and something that like is based on your unique play through your unique relationship. ⁓ It's always where people put like inside jokes that have come up ⁓ in the play through or like specific specific apologies or specific like, you know, to go on with. ⁓ And truly. the rule of, and this is a spoiler as well, but like ⁓ in the phrasing of not telling them to get a piece of paper until they are already in the game. And the fact that some people won't be able to, I think was like a, was a really fun thing that I, that I almost, I almost was so afraid to do and I almost pulled back on, but I, but then when, I think my editor, Lee, read it, Sam Lee, who designed Anamnesis, incredible game designer in their own right, read that and was like, that is the ⁓ best part of this game. And like, you have to do that. ⁓ And yeah. ⁓ boy. To clear my throat, because I'm getting all the cry feeling in the back of my throat. It's messed up. ⁓ I recorded our session for, you know, Deer and Acorn, and I was able to look back on the moment my friend read that rule, and he just puts his head in his hand for a second, and then just grabs a sheet of paper, and I was like, ⁓ this is all so hard for him, too. Which, because like, the infected brother has to sit with that the whole session, which is wild. It's like a slow, yeah, it's like a slow buildup of that emotion. And then the surviving brother just gets hit with it all at once at the end. And I think that's an interesting way to kind of make both brothers feel that emotion in different ways. And I think that's really Yeah. It's an impossible task. mean, how do you put a button on that kind of conversation? You know what I mean? Like, it's like, how do you make that feel satisfying or at all adequate of a message to like leave? ⁓ It does a good job of it, because it does put a finality. on it. It's like, this is this is where we're ending it. This is this is it. And it was just it was so it was so great. I still think about it. I wanted to. OK, I have a few questions and I'm thinking about how I want to kind of order them because I want to talk about the importance, in your opinion, of playing games that are heavy hitting like this. I think they're important, but I do want to hear from you. Do you think that it is important to play these kind of more serious and emotional games? And if so, why? ⁓ yeah. I mean, definitely. Yes. Let's see if I can put words to why I feel that way. But I definitely do feel that way. ⁓ I think that you learn a lot about yourself in these kinds of experiences. I I think that ⁓ heavy media in general has the ability to increase your sort of sense of self and your empathy for people. ⁓ think that one of the things with this game that I've really loved to see is that a lot of only children have told me that they played this game and while they don't have the connection to siblings, They have people in their life that are as important as siblings that, you know, meant or it just like made them understand or think about this relationship of siblings that they didn't have. So I don't know. I think a lot about these kinds of games, increasing personal empathy. ⁓ And like I think on then on a different level that like, ⁓ especially when you play these games with other people, I think that they strengthen your relationships with those people and they create space for deeper vulnerability with those people in your life. To connect it to my own life, I live in this house that you can see around me with ⁓ four of my best friends ⁓ who are all games people, Dylan Appellian, Veditya Velletti, Rowan Zioli, and Robin Eckberg. And Rowan and Dylan were the first two play testers of the full game. They played the full decks when was just a print and play before it was public. And they played the game. And we were all good friends. were like in a friend group. We hung out a lot, but they played the game and then they spent four hours talking after debriefing the game, talking about a lot of really deep personal stuff in their lives, becoming a lot closer in a domino effect that I can track to us all living together now. And like, these are like some of the most important people in my life now and like, you know, people I love more than anything. And I think that in... some ways the game is responsible. Not always, but there are ways that I can trace it to a level of closeness. And I think that that's really special that a game can do that and that play can do that. And ⁓ I think that I feel the same way about movies and stuff. Like, you you watch a particularly affecting movie with another person. I think it brings you closer together. So, yeah, yeah, for all those reasons. I mean, I think heavy games are very important. Beautifully said. I could not have said it better myself. I feel very similarly in that heavy-hitting media in general is also like a form of catharsis. You get to work stuff out that you didn't even know was hiding in there. And it all just kind of comes out in... Maybe not explicitly, ⁓ I'm struggling with this and this is why I that. But you work through things in your own kind of way through play. In a way that is safe. In a way that you're both going to be okay at the end. And I think that is really beautiful. And I think it's a beautiful thing that you've accomplished with that, especially with bringing people closer. I feel so much closer to my friend that I played with. We also had a... I think we walked around downtown Olympia for like an hour afterward, just debriefing and talking. And we like looked out over the water for a while and just like silence. it was something that we... would not have done otherwise, to spend that time together in that very emotional place. And I think that's really special. Yeah, I can think of... I played this game now seven or eight times, I think, in total. And each person I've played it with, I can identify a sort of deepening of the relationship. There are some people I played on mic with, some people I played off mic with. It's, yeah. Wow. It's special for sure. Piggybacking off of that, ⁓ how do you personally kind of come down from such an emotional experience like this? Like what are your techniques for kind of like getting back to a place where you're okay again? Because something that I really loved, sorry to cut you off, something I've really loved was in the rules, there is a mechanic that you hug each other at the end. Explicitly. I thought that was genius because I needed that hug more than I've ever needed a hug in my life. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to give a very bad answer at first, which is that this is a unhealthy coping mechanism, but I am a I am a smoker. And so usually I smoke a cigarette after a really intense experience. And that does help, unfortunately. ⁓ But no, I mean. People is the answer largely for me. I I think that I I value I value physical touch like that like hugs and stuff and and Being close to another person in that way And I think that the hug is one of those things that I actually did get a note from someone early on where they were like What if people aren't huggers and I was like, well, I'm kind of okay with that They can sort of you know, issue that rule if they want to I think that because you have been separated from this person for 90 minutes, two hours, an hour, depending on how long you play, that to me was like, you need to be reminded that this person is alive and that nothing bad is gonna happen to them and that like, this was all not real. Like that's like, yeah, you need to feel the fact that they are a warm, breathing, like living person ⁓ and still here. So I don't know, yeah, I think like. I think about ⁓ that. like to, after some, I think about movies and stuff too when I've watched that, will just sit with people and be around a person. ⁓ And then frankly, I like to dose it with the opposite form of thing, whether that's a totally different vibe TV show or movie or what have you. Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, I think that. It's so important to remind each other that you're okay. Because I remember, I remember explicitly, my friend was hugging me and he was like, I'm not dead, I'm fine. And I didn't realize going into it that that was something I would have needed to hear. Like that's how visceral the experience was, was that like, I felt like you were dying. Like it was so real for a minute, especially with, know... some of the other mechanics that we talked about, like so much of it just coalesced into this ball of emotion that at the end of the game just kind of exploded. And to have that kind of like, okay, pick yourself back up. Like I'm fine, we're fine, we're not dead, we're okay, was so needed. And so I just appreciate that that was thought into the game as well, that you thought about like the after part too. Yeah, yeah. I thought about, there was a time where debrief was almost its own card and I realized that I didn't want to be too prescriptive on what debrief looked like that the important thing for me was the reconnection but then it does say to explicitly debrief whatever that looks like for each person. ⁓ Yeah, I mean I think it's like, you know, people have talked a lot about I'm sure maybe you've heard this like about narrative drift or this idea that like the memories of playing a game or experiencing a story can sometimes form in your brain the same way memories do. And I'm not interested in traumatizing people as much as I am interested in making a sad game, you know what I mean? ⁓ And I think that without the aftercare of this game, you run the risk of like really, creating a bad experience in someone's mind. ⁓ Then I would never wanna do that. No, totally, totally. And I think you do a good job of making it hard hitting, making it heavy, making it sad, but also making it memorable and coming back together. And like, we did this to grow closer and we did this to have an experience and ⁓ my God, we have an experience. 100%. Absolutely. ⁓ I only have one question left, but I do want to talk more because this is such an awesome conversation that we're having. And I would like to tell you about my personal game. ⁓ But just to round out my questions, just so we have them, are there any future projects that people should look out for from you? Ooh, yes. ⁓ Right now I'm getting ready to publish two games by two of my roommates, ⁓ Dylan Appellian and Robin Eckberg. Dylan Appellian, well, Robin Eckberg has a game coming called Rise Wizards. It's a dice stacking map making game about wizard hubris that I'm very excited about. It plays super fun. You are stacking all the polyhedral dice, but each time you take your existing tower and stack it onto the new dice. So it's got a little bit of a twist on the dice stacking formula. And then Dylan Appellan's game is called All's Fair, which is a game about two people who want to fuck each other so bad they save the world about it. And it is inspired by Mickey 17. ⁓ So it is a soldier and a clone and it's war powered the card game and when you're playing regular war it is the two characters being intimate and when you break into war it's the two characters fighting back against a fascist regime. It's a game that's really personal to Dylan and largely about his feelings on censorship and ⁓ sex and bodies amidst a rise in fascism. ⁓ those two games are shortly on the horizon. As for my own designs, I am ⁓ My goal for this year is to get back to designing. spent a lot of last year doing business stuff, ⁓ getting the time we have out, getting a land the ones magic out. I'm really happy with those two things and how they came together. But now I want to get back to the, back to the pen and paper. So we'll see what's first. ⁓ I have a solo journaling game I want to write in speaking of sad games. If somebody's a fan of me being sad, I have a solo journaling game. want to write that is like a body horror game about a ⁓ some form of like creature entering your body and you trying to like get it out and ⁓ maybe some drawing on yourself that is about not being able to get over someone that you once loved. ⁓ That we'll see if that comes together or if I if I can handle writing it. ⁓ That sounds intense. That sounds amazing though. Yeah. And then yeah, I don't know. We'll see what else is next ⁓ You know I also make podcasts with many sighted media and we've got some new seasons and a project echo show out this year that I'm very excited about a nonlinear presentation of project echo kind of as an improvised audio drama slash actual play that I think is ⁓ really neat That is amazing. That's so much to look forward to from this amazing group of creators that you've got going on. I'm so excited to keep up with everything. Wow. Everything from the games to the show, the podcast, like I will be devouring all of it. So thank you so much. And thanks for having me. This was so fun. Thank you. No, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me. I really did just have such an amazing experience with your game. And I'm so grateful to be able to dig deep into it more and kind of understand some of the thought process behind it because I loved it. I want everyone to play this game. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. Another huge thank you to Elliot Davis for spending time with me and talking to me about his game, The Time We Have. I cannot stress how impactful this game was on me and being able to talk to him was just such a special experience. If you would like to pick up a copy of The Time We Have, we do have it available on our website, heartofthedirinacorn.com. And thank you so much for spending some time with me and listening to our interview. I really appreciate it. Anyway, I will see you all in the next episode. Until then. ⁓