Latest / Brett Keane and Eve Show / Muslims VS Christians /w Brother Maverick and Brett Keane

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Muslims VS Christians /w Brother Maverick and Brett Keane · Brett Keane and Eve Show

1:39
Music. What's going on?
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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Cross Unit and
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today's special edition of Dawa Dissection.
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Man, we are going to have a great 1 today.
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There have been for the last hour or so.
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I have been battling behind the scenes.
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Ladies and gentlemen, it seems like for whatever reason, the
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enemy definitely doesn't want this dream to happen.
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Today we had caught pretty much a disaster.
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All my links cross unit that live forward slash prey, cross
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unit that live forward slash call, cross unit that live
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forward slash discord. None of them seem to be working.
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I looked, I checked a couple of websites, it looks like the DNS
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cache protocol behind all of them is not working.
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I don't know why it was working last stream and when I was going
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to do the test, all of my machines except for one obscure
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browser that really people don't use was able to get through
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right. So I had to put like the random
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raw link in there and just pray that people are able to at least
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click it or copy and paste it like kind of back in the day.
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Sorry about that guys. I don't know what's going on
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with it. I don't know why it's acting
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silly. I'm going to be working on that
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today after the stream and and pray to God that maybe it's
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just, you know, it's down. I I don't know what the issue is
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at this point. There's nothing I can't I can do
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a graph that apologetics. We're waiting for him to call
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into the show. Oh, he's here.
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Grafted is here, thank God. All right.
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So I'm glad they were both able to find welcome, Grafted and
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welcome Prophet Daniel. Actually two of the coolest guys
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I've ever met. Prophet Daniel, you guys are on
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the opposite side. So it's going to be interesting
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to see this conversation today because I will be acting or so
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long as Grafted is here in a more of a moderation stance.
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So I'm excited for that. Welcome both to you gentlemen.
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How are you doing today? Hi.
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Hi. Good evening.
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Just that you can only hear me. I'm doing well.
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And greetings as well the prophet Daniel.
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I hope you are doing well. Prophet Daniel, are you there?
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Can you hear us? Yeah, Yeah.
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OK, excellent. Yeah, we can.
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Hear you. All right, cool.
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All right, guys. So let's start off with today's
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verse and then from there we're going to move on.
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I'm going to give you guys a little bit about what's going on
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because Grafted doesn't have too much time.
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First of all, I want to thank both of them for being here,
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especially to Grafted because it is very much later where he is.
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He's from South Africa, so whether it be 2:00 for me, it's
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like 9:00 for him. I think they're even more ahead
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than the United Kingdom. So we're going to get this going
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from the Book of Psalms chapter 84 verses 11 and 12.
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For the Lord God is a son and shield.
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The Lord bestows favor and honor.
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No good thing does he withhold from those who walk is whose
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walk is blameless. Lord Almighty, blessed is the
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one who trusts in you. Again, that's from the book of
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Psalms, ladies and gentlemen, chapter 84, verses 11 and 12.
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Now the thoughts on today's verse was these promises are
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made to the true worshipper of God.
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Psalm 8410. The worshipper delights to be in
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the presence of God and yearns to be with God in worship.
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The worshipper trusts fully in God as the source of strength,
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hope, victory, and joy. For this kind of worshipper, God
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has left an incredible set of promises very similar to Romans
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832 through 39 and its hallmark passage in Romans 28.
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God promises to work out things for good and bless those who
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love Him and are called according to His purpose.
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Paul goes on to say that God will graciously give us all
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things in Christ. Romans 832.
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Notice how this is very similar to our Psalm today.
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No good thing does He withhold from those who walk whose walk
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is blameless. Why these lavish promises?
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Because God is for us. He is our Son and shield.
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He lavishes His grace and His glory upon us.
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He will not withhold any good thing from us as we seek to have
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a walk that is blameless. Here's the prayer guys, and
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we're going to get directly the business.
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All right. Oh, dear Father, how can I thank
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you? You have.
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You have lavished your grace upon me in Jesus.
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You have promised me victory and heaven.
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I praise you for your grace. I thank you for sharing your
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glory with me. I rejoice knowing that you long
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to bless me now. Dear Father, help me through
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your Holy Spirit to be faith, to be the faithful person you long
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for me to be. Make my life a holy praise unto
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you in Jesus name I pray Amen, Amen and Amen.
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Thank you guys so much for joining me through the prayer
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and through today. Now GOD TV radio is here.
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That's that's actually good to see ladies and gentlemen, this
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is how today is going to go today the verse is obviously
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clear. Sarat 1094 affirms the Bible
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prove me wrong now, although that is the title of my stream
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grafted apologetics asked me very graciously if he could
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start dipping his toes in the water, so to speak into kind of
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these conversations that usually turn into debates.
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You call them whatever you want. Ladies and gentlemen.
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I just call it a search for truth and the reason being is
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because no matter what we owe it to each other to be
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intellectually honest. We owe it to each other to be
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spiritually honest. And you know, for many of us, we
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have seen where that trip has LED us where there'd be
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atheists, whether it be, you know, Muslims and and and people
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turn into Christianity from all places.
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And then, you know, there's a lot of Muslims who will say the
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opposite. So you know what prophet Daniel,
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you go ahead, give you know, give us a little bit about
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yourself. You know a minute what you
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believe. You know what your background is
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and you know, don't dox yourself, obviously, but just
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tell us who you are. And then right after that graph
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that you introduce yourself. Everybody knows God, TV, radio
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on myself, but I am very, I'm very much looking.
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I've been looking forward to this all week.
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So go ahead, Prophet Daniel. Introduce yourself, brother.
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Hey, thank you very much, Maverick.
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I'm audible just to check. Yes, very much.
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So OK all right, OK, so all good.
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Thank you so much for letting me in.
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And I recently became friends with GOD TV radio Brad.
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And you know, we had a conversation backstage to, to
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join your stream and you've been gracious to us in and I did have
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a conversation with you like a couple of couple of weeks ago
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or, or maybe a month at most. And I've been looking forward to
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communication from you. And yeah, I myself, I'm a broad
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Muslim. I have been researching the
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Quran for the past 20 years, like active research books on
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the Quran that go on to become the commentary on three
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different subject areas. One is creation of the cosmos,
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the other is the origins of life and the third is the Sharia.
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What's, what's Sharia is basically from the Quran.
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And I've also translated the Quran in modern English and it's
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ongoing work, which I'm quite busy on, you know, these days
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and it has been have been in the recent years.
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And I'm actually relaunching myself into the YouTube world.
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I did this like 3 years ago when I wanted to just jump in and
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have a go at the atheists. And I had a debate on direct
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make vision channel on Quran and science.
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But after that, I thought it was a hard, it was hard work to keep
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up the YouTube channel. So I, I kind of, I kind of went
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back to what I was doing because the things that I was doing at
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my end were really important and required me to be dedicated.
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Right now I'm back and I see YouTube boiling with a lot of a
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lot of content and a lot of claims and a lot of accusations
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on the Koran and which I see the traditional Muslims are failing
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to keep up because the traditional Muslims rely on
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traditions ever more than they rely on the Quran.
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Yeah. So I, I kind of see that where
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they're coming from and how they fail at substantiating, you
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know, a proper defence of the Quran.
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So I thought now there's no going back from here.
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So I'm trying my best to, to, to, to, to have my presence on
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the Internet. My channel is Prophet Daniel has
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spoken and I've got a lot of content there, but very few
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subscribers. So I would appreciate you
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giving, giving out a shout out for your viewers if whoever is
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interested to, to follow me. So thanks.
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We sure will. Yeah, we will do all the
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introductions and show the channels after the introductions
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are done. Grafted apologetics.
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If you would give us a brief intro as to who you are and what
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you believe. Sir, please.
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I'll say good evening just because it is evening on my side
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or night time. So good evening everyone.
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Just to give a brief introduction to myself, I would
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call myself a surface level apologist.
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I'm I'm wouldn't not classify myself as a polemicist at all.
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I guess just for your information, Daniel, the the
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main can you just. Update up your voice please.
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I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.
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I disturb you can up your voice. Is that is that better?
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Yeah, I can. I can.
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I can hear you fine now. I guess it's maybe something
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going on his on his end. Yeah.
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OK, gotcha. OK.
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Then can you just? Be your voice.
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Yeah, I can hear you. Yeah, you're good.
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OK. Yeah.
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So. Yeah, I, I, I got into
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apologetics because I actually had a very close Muslim friend
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effectively not attack my religion, so to speak.
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But he shook my world when when I found out about the the
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Islamic narrative that the Bible was corrupted.
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And so I myself have also come from a place of doing much
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research, looking into every kind of claim made about the
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Scriptures as well. And so I've largely been an
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apologist, not a polemicist. But as Pragmatic has explained,
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I'm kind of dipping my toes into this because I do feel that the
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Islamic dilemma, at least in the sense of the claims that he
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makes about the Bible, is something quite close to home
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for me. But ultimately, all I do really,
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for those watching is apologetics.
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All I'm really interested in is edifying the church, edifying
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the believers, and having conversations in interfaith
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settings that will, you know, plant seeds, seeds in the hearts
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of those who hear. My ultimate goal is that
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whatever conversations happen, happen for the glory of God,
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minds and hearts are open to receive the gospel.
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This is not so much for me about forcing me kind of you and
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anyone, but it's really just having this on this dialogue.
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And I'm sure that's exactly what Brethematic wants to facilitate.
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Amen. Yeah.
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Amen. Amen.
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Yes. Thank you, gentlemen.
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God save your radio. Did you want to say anything
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before we start or oh wait, it would probably help if out.
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I'm sorry guys, anybody will be able to join, but after the main
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conference, go ahead. Go ahead.
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Brett, you were you were muted on my side.
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I don't know why. Are you able?
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To hear me now, Yeah, We can hear you.
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Yep. I was saying that I'm happy to
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see you. I hope you and the family's been
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doing well. Also happy to see you as well,
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Prophet Daniel. And nice to meet you, Mr.
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Apologetics. Hopefully you'll be able to
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clear up your mic so I can hear you a little bit better.
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Though on my end, it's rough. It might be fine for brother
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Maverick, though. Yeah.
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Yeah, I can hear him. I can hear.
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I mean, I can hear him clearly, but I don't know, maybe it's I.
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Don't know. That could be 80s medal ruined
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my hearing, I don't know, but I hope you all are doing well.
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And. And I guess let's rock'n'roll.
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All right, ladies and gentlemen, well, today is going to be
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exactly what you see. So Rotten 94 affirms the Bible.
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And before we start, I do want to say a huge appreciation to
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Prophet Daniel. Let's go ahead and let's look at
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Prophet Daniel's channel. We're going to feature and we
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are going to talk about both channels here because I do have
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apologize guys. I was going through lots of
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technical difficulties where all my domains just decided that
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they weren't going to work anymore right at the last
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second. None of my custom URLs are
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working. So it really does suck when
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stuff like that happens at the last second.
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But you know, it is what it is. The show must go on and we have
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to adjust fire, as we say in the Army and continue moving.
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So that's Prophet Daniel and grafted apologetics.
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All right, here we are. So ladies and gentlemen, here
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are both channels. This is grafted apologetics.
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Go ahead and give them a sub. Please check them out on
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YouTube. It's a great channel, very young
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channel. Both channels are very young as
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well as Prophet Daniel has spoken.
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Again, very young channels. Ladies and gentlemen, here's the
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thing, I do not, I will never tell anyone not to sub to
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someone's channel, even if they don't believe what I believe in.
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Why, brother Maverick, why do you tell people to go ahead and
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sub to people's channels if they don't believe in Jesus Christ as
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the Messiah? Because at the end of the day,
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there's nothing for me, in my view, that's going to change the
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truth about Jesus Christ. Whoever you sub to, if you're
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doing so in the spirit of finding the truth and you truly
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do have a relationship with Christ, no amount of subbing to
15:37
anybody else's channel is going to change that.
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So that's the way I look at it. Sub to both of them, ladies and
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gentlemen. They are great guys.
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Now we're going to do like this guys. 5 minute opening
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statements again. And the reason I'm saying that
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is because that debate between Daniel E Kakuchu and and and
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David Wood the other day, I think they had like 20 minute
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opening statements. I felt like my eyes were
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bleeding by the eyes. Like that is way too much.
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So yeah, at the end of the day, we are going to do 5 minute
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opening statements. Does anyone have a preference on
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who's going first? I'm happy for Daniel to go
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first, OK? Yeah.
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Oh, thank you. All right.
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I myself have no issue. You guys do things the way you
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do, all right? So the rules for here are going
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to be simple. Prophet, Daniel and grafted.
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Whatever you guys say has to be in relation to Surat 1094.
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Whatever you say, I want you guys to be able to provide
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evidence for right. I don't want statements like,
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oh, well, we know that, you know, Surat 1094 is Jen is, is
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affirming the Bible, but generally not specifically, not
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completely stuff like that. We want facts because like you
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said, Prophet Daniel was something that was very
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important. A guy who holds your name, you
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know, one of your counterparts in the Muslim world, he did
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through your own admission, he did a horrible job during his
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debate. I mean, beyond a horrible job
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And, and even Muslims it's, it's, it's caused what the
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Christian world is calling a lot of Dawa infighting, right?
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And, and people are in the Muslim world are fighting so
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much over how to solve this Islamic dilemma that I want very
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little repeat of what happened between him and David Wood.
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So whatever you guys say, be ready to defend.
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If not, I'm definitely going to hammer you both hard on cross
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examination. So be ready for that.
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I will write down if you guys say something or try to sneak
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past, I will hold you guys to it.
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And I'm going to be I am a Christian, ladies and gentlemen,
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but I right now I am acting in in the role as a moderator and I
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am not favoring one side. I am favoring.
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I want straight facts, I want professionalism and I want you
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guys to be say what you're saying, but be able to prove
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what you're saying through some sort of scholarship, patristic
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sources. I don't care what it is, but
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just because I said so, I believe so I don't I don't want
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to play that. Does that sound fair to both of
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you? Yeah, yeah, sure.
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All right, Prophet Daniel has spoken.
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I am going to bring up the timer.
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We said 5 minute opening statements.
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Hang on. It would help if I.
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It would help if I start. OK, your time starts now.
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Go ahead, brother. Yeah, OK.
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What I see is the Quran is mostly taken out of context and
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this particular verse is also taken out of context.
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And the context for this particular verse and why it was
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given basically comes way above. If you go to verse 56 for
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example, in the same Surah, that's where I find the previous
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context ending. The verse 56 says it is he who
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gives life and gives death and to him you all shall be brought
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back. That's the end of the context
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and the new context begins in verse 57.
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So verse 57 is where God is saying, oh mankind, there has
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come to you a counsel from Almighty God, from your Lord as
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as healing and as as guidance and mercy for the believers.
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So that's where the context is pitched about the the Quran
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itself as being healing and guidance and mercy.
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OK. And when we in verse 58, it goes
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on to affirm this, it says it's the favor of God and his mercy
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and the believers. I mean, people shouldn't
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generally be happy about this reception of divine guidance or
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divine communication. And it's better than all the
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other stuff, the worldly stuff that you can potentially amass.
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So the premise is being set for the Quran in verses 5758, which
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mostly I've seen nobody highlight this.
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In who are going, who are going on providing A defence to
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Islamic dilemma that they don't emphasize the context behind the
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Quranic quotations. Not just this, each and every
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one of them. I happened to watch the debate
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as well and I saw nobody delved into the context of the Quranic
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verses. And then you have in verse #65
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it's again being restated and re emphasized.
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So if you go to 65, God is saying to Prophet Muhammad let
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their accusations on you or off you not grieve you.
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So when Prophet Muhammad is presenting the Quran to people
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in Makkah, what they are doing is basically giving out
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objections. This Surah is early Medina Surah
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as well. So it's it's like a transitory
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period, late Makkah and early Medina Surah.
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So when the Quran is being recited to people, people have
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accusations to make to Prophet Muhammad that he's inventing
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these things, fabricating these things out of his own volition
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and then attributing it to God. So God in 65 goes on to say
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don't grieve because what they accuse you of all the honor
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belongs to God and God is hearing on all knowing and then
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he goes on to provide what I say is two of the stories of the
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past when messengers who came from Almighty God were also
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rejected. Like one of the stories is of
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Noah who was rejected by his people and the other story is of
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Moses when he was rejected by the Pharaoh and his people.
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So after these two stories comes the worst, which is being taken
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out of this context, and the worst is 94.
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So in 94, we get to see if you are in doubt, OK, regarding
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this, regarding the divine communication that I'm making to
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you, ask those who read the book before you, OK?
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They will confirm to you. God says they will confirm to
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you that divine God has been making divine communications in
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the past. So it's not out of the ordinary
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happening to you. It's not, It's not, it it, You
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don't have to doubt about this communication that you're
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receiving to be your hallucinations or from a
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different source and what and what not as they accuse you that
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you're listening to other people and then making these things up
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for yourself. Nothing of that is at play.
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But what is at play is this divine communication that I'm
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sending to you, which you can by the way, confirm.
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If you had a word with the people of the book, they will
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confirm to you that God has made divine communications to people
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in the past. And then God says, therefore the
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truth has come to you from your Lord.
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Do not be in doubt. And we have the confirmation of
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this exactly this exact words in verses, for example, say 21,
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seven. But God goes on to say again,
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your Muhammad, your time is up. Previously.
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I have communicated to people, people so there.
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Are also. People are messages people.
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Daniel, I'll give you, I'll give you 15 more seconds.
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Yeah, So there is also another Ali in the Quran in chapter 40,
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chapter 16, verse 46, which also goes on to emphasize to Prophet
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Muhammad. Don't doubt the communication
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and I've done this previously to human messengers and there's
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nothing out of the ordinary happening to you.
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So this is what the context is. It's not about confirmation of
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biblical stories all. Right.
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Thank you, Prophet Daniel, for your opening statement.
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I appreciate that. Having said that, let's move on
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to grafted apologetics. Your opening statement on
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Serrata 94 and its affirmation of the Bible or not Go ahead.
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Thank you so much. Appreciate the time.
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And again, thank you so much to the Prophet Daniel for doing
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this in my conversations with the Maverick, right?
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The the kind of framing that I spoke to him about was that for
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me, it was effectively just to look at the approach that people
24:38
take with Islamic dilemma is concerned.
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My opening statement is not really going to deal with
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necessarily debunking, reacting to anything.
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I'm clearly making an approach statement here in my opening
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statement. And ultimately the way I see
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Muslims handling this is that when we speak on the dilemma,
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the Islamic dilemma, it's often framed as an internal critique.
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The interesting thing to me so far is that it seems that, and
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I'm not going to make any kind of assumptions or judgments, but
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that you are taking this from effectively A Quranist only
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perspective. We can get into that later, but
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for the most part, soon as they're going to try and force
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the Christian into an internal framework or some kind of
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internal critique, right? Which is basically to say that,
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well, if you're going to critique the the Islamic
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narrative, you have to do it from inside of our framework.
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You have to take out our interpretations.
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And for the most part with this opening statement, I'm going to
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say that to a degree this is an internal critique, but also to a
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degree, this is not an internal critique.
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The reason for this is that the Quran, the Quran in its subject
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matter, in what it speaks about, points to an external reality.
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So it's not fallacious for one such as myself to say, yes,
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there's an aspect of this that's internal, but there's an aspect
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of this that I have to go and measure the claims of the Quran
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from outside the Quran. And this is the thing, if the
25:54
Quran is making claims about subject matter, people, stories
25:59
that have to have some kind of external verification, in other
26:04
words, the people of the book, then we have to actually judge
26:08
the Quran by external literature.
26:11
And so the, the issue that I bring up here is, of course,
26:15
that how many Muslims say that the Quran is not doing an
26:19
absolute confirmation of scripture, but only a general
26:21
confirmation of scripture? What I'd like to investigate
26:23
then and get onto a neutral framework of is what does that
26:27
mean? If the Quran is saying not all
26:29
of scripture is true, which aspects of scripture is not
26:31
true? If not all aspects of scripture
26:33
can be trusted, what is it that constitutes corruption?
26:37
Is it? And I mean, I know that the
26:39
Quran speaks about tarif, right? We have mentions of interpretive
26:44
or revisionist corruption that the people of the book.
26:48
Then what they do is they give new interpretations.
26:52
This doesn't have an effect on textually what's happening, but
26:55
they also then depending on how I guess the the interpretations
27:01
of the Quran take place by Muslims, some things will also
27:04
constitute textual corruption. The reason that this is going to
27:07
be relevant to Surat in 94 is because Surat in 94 is a direct
27:12
command to the Prophet to speak to the people of the Book using
27:17
these scriptures to confirm stories presented to him or
27:21
stories presented through him to the people.
27:24
You will find in tafsir or executed with scholarly
27:28
interpretations that some people say this is directly aimed at
27:31
Muhammad. In other words, it's not simply
27:33
just communication for his own comfort, but it is that Allah is
27:37
testing the veracity of his own stories to Muhammad.
27:40
And what this is going to mean is story about Moses and as you
27:44
said brother Daniel. It's also going to be stories
27:46
about other prophetic figures that we find in early Judaism
27:50
scriptures. Noah.
27:51
I would also even like to make the case and note that although
27:56
Sudafin is a middle to make making period Suda which you are
27:59
100% predicting, there are other Sudas that unanimously or
28:04
against the major consensus seals such As for example Suda 7
28:07
Suda Lewin that speaks about earlier prophetic figures like
28:10
Abraham, Adam, Lot and so forth. And so it's not just these
28:16
stories about Moses and nowhere that have to be taken into or or
28:20
measured right to valid valid give validity to Mahmoud's words
28:25
and to to his prophethood. But it is also the people of the
28:28
book that have to expand on and explore and judge the stories of
28:33
Kaya prophets. And so if the scriptures are
28:36
corrupt indeed, as the Islamic dilemma dictates, and if Allah
28:40
is giving a valid command as Sudha T-94 dictates, how can
28:45
they do this if they've got corrupted scriptures?
28:48
My fear is that the scriptures are not corrupted.
28:50
You have to grant the Torah. And if you're granting the
28:52
Torah, then we still have an Islamic dilemma because the
28:55
Quran contradicts stories on the perfect figures in the Torah.
28:59
I will consider the rest of my time.
29:02
All right. Thank you so much, brother
29:06
Grafted for the opening statement.
29:09
Very well thought out on both sides, gentlemen.
29:11
So here's what we're going to do.
29:12
I'm going to give you guys both half the chance now for counter
29:15
rebuttals. Prophet Daniel, I would assume
29:18
that there are things in there that you want to rebuttal.
29:20
Am I correct? Actually, the debate is now
29:29
spilling out to other parts of the Quran.
29:31
But we're going to stay on set 94, correct?
29:33
So yeah, I mean, if you want to address that and only that,
29:36
that's fine. I have no problem with that.
29:38
OK. All right.
29:39
So yeah, do you want me to go? Ahead.
29:42
Yeah, I will start your time. Give me a second because I'm
29:44
printing out the questions for you guys for both sides.
29:46
When for the cross exam? Yeah, go ahead.
29:52
So yeah, I mean, I've noticed this in my recent interactions
29:55
with other Christian preachers and who who are bringing this
29:59
objection to the table that they kind of assume, assume here at
30:05
this point in time that the Quran is somehow asking Prophet
30:09
Muhammad to go and validate its intubation from from the earlier
30:13
books and have a sort of comparative validation of its
30:18
stories, which is not the case. And I've been, I try my best to
30:23
tell them that this is not the case because the Quran never,
30:28
never, ever asks Prophet Muhammad to go and validates its
30:32
validate its stories. With the Bible, for example.
30:35
It never does that. What it does here is in fact, it
30:39
gives him assurance that the divine communication that he's
30:42
receiving is from Almighty God and not, not anything else like
30:47
people would say, oh, he's getting that from a devil or
30:51
from his friends or he's just hallucinating.
30:55
He's struck with magic and what and what not.
30:57
All of these accusations came to him from a range of different
31:01
people in Mecca and Medina, for example.
31:04
So the Quran, whenever prophet as a human being, you can, you
31:07
can, you can sort of understand what would go on into a human
31:14
being when he's being given so many allegations, right.
31:18
So as a human being, sometimes when you're not, when the spirit
31:22
is not there with you, you kind of doubt to what is happening to
31:26
you. So that's when God says do not
31:28
doubt. I have done this previously.
31:31
Previously I've spoken to human messengers, given them good mind
31:35
communication. Nothing out of the ordinary is
31:37
happening to you if you if you are in doubt, just go and talk
31:40
to people of the book. They will tell you yes indeed
31:42
God send messengers before you may have had a streak of
31:46
prophets with us who received divine communication from
31:49
Almighty God. So this is the subject matter of
31:52
1094 and it is not validating stories from within the Bible.
31:59
So the premise that people bring to the table pitched on this
32:04
particular verse that the Quran should validate stories from the
32:08
Bible, and yet it says the Bible has been changed.
32:11
This premise basically falls apart because because the Quran
32:14
is not asking to validate its information from the Bible, it's
32:18
only telling Prophet Muhammad, but nothing out of the ordinary
32:21
is taking place with you. I have done this in the past and
32:24
it's happening now with you. If you are in doubt, just have a
32:27
word with people of the book. They will confirm to you that
32:29
God indeed has communicated to people who are human beings and
32:32
given them divine communication. So this is going to be my part
32:37
of my reputation. All right, go ahead.
32:39
Graft the counter, remodel any points that you want to make and
32:42
then we're going to move into cross.
32:45
Sure. I want to just make a really
32:46
quick point. So just in what you've seen in
32:49
the opening statement, right, that this is the kind of
32:52
communication that's taking place between Allah and Muhammad
32:55
is that it's not Muhammad being asked to verify stories, but
32:58
he's being asked to verify a specific type of communication
33:01
that would line up with what early prophets such as Noah or
33:05
Moses had. And so if you are saying that
33:08
this is what Allah is asking him to do to, to, to clarify his
33:11
doubt by checking that he went through the same kind of
33:14
rejection as other prophets, then again, this is where I, I,
33:18
I bring up. I don't know if your position is
33:20
that you are Quran only or if you do actually follow other,
33:25
you know, Islamic literature, but the majority of scholars are
33:31
all saying, no, Mahmoud's not doubting.
33:32
He's not doubting. Some of them even say this is
33:35
directed to other people, the other people of the follow the
33:38
followers of Muhammad and that even they should still then go
33:42
to the people of the book, check these things, check and verify
33:45
the stories in the scripture. So if this is something that is
33:50
exclusive to Muhammad, why do you have, you know, Tarsi
33:53
exegete saying the opposite? And also, again, coming back to
33:57
the topic of this debate, Suratin 94 affirms the Bible.
34:01
If Muhammad is just being asked to match his experience as a
34:05
prophet with other prophets, it still validates the Bible.
34:08
It still validates the narrative of the Jews and Christians as
34:12
per the order what their prophets went through.
34:15
So the way you're explaining this, this, this doesn't act as
34:18
a reductio. It doesn't serve as a negation
34:21
of the validity, the preservation of the Christian
34:24
scriptures as per your answer to the 294.
34:26
But again, let's come back to it.
34:28
What does that mean? If if this if this command to
34:31
verify the stories themselves goes beyond Muhammad as per
34:35
Islamic exegetes, and I'm talking about Jalali, I'm
34:37
talking about Ibn Abbas. How do they who are not going
34:42
through the same experience, verify that message by the
34:45
people of the book? They would say have to grant the
34:47
theories of the Bible as presented by Jews and
34:50
Christians. Thank you.
34:53
All right. Thank you so much, gentlemen.
34:55
I really do appreciate the clarity and the articulation
34:58
from both of you. Now we are going to move on to
35:02
the and I'm I'm, I'm not trying to rush in any way guys, but I
35:05
do know that brother Grafted has a limited amount of time because
35:10
I, like I told you guys earlier, it is late by where he is.
35:12
So we're going to respect that. I'm not going to necessarily end
35:18
the moment that he gets off, but I want the bulk of this stream
35:22
to be surrounding this conversation.
35:24
So I did print out five questions and these are only in
35:29
regards to 1094. Gentlemen, if here at the end of
35:33
the day concerning the Islamic dilemma, I know that staying on
35:37
1094 in and of itself may be impossible, right?
35:41
Because you may have to go to other parts of the Quran.
35:44
You may have to go to and that's fine.
35:45
I have no problem with that. So long as the core of your
35:49
messaging stays on 1094, that's fine.
35:52
And the reason I'm doing it this way is because usually we will
35:57
talk about the Islamic dilemma and we never get past Surah 547,
36:00
right? I'm sick of talking about Surah
36:02
547. I wanted to go to one of the
36:04
other verses That is one of the core tenants of the Islamic
36:08
dilemma. So I do have a list of five
36:10
questions. If we do have time for more, I
36:12
will do more. Also, ladies and gentlemen, if
36:14
there are any super chats and there are questions, let title
36:17
them to who it is that you want to title them for.
36:19
If it's for grafted, say it is for grafted.
36:21
If it is for Daniel, say it is for Daniel.
36:23
All super chat questions will be read so long as they are as they
36:27
are. Respectful.
36:27
Ladies and gentlemen, don't super chat.
36:29
I don't care how much money you donate.
36:31
If you super chat and you say something stupid, I'm not going
36:33
to read it. I'm sorry.
36:34
OK. So be respectful because I've
36:35
seen some really stupid questions and I've seen
36:38
Christians doing it too. We are not going to sit here and
36:40
pretend like Christians are perfect because I have seen
36:41
Christians say some out of pocket stupidity that you have
36:45
no business saying about Muslims or anyone else for that matter.
36:48
Do not super chat if you're going to say something dumb.
36:50
Telling you right now this question number one, are you
36:55
both comfortable with 2-3 minute answers for these questions?
37:00
Sure. All right, if you need more,
37:02
we'll we'll go case by case basics.
37:04
OK, so let me hold on. Let me blank the clock here.
37:09
Question number one, in Sarat 1094, the Quran tells Muhammad
37:13
if you are in quote. If you are in doubt, ask those
37:15
who have been reading the book before you.
37:17
End Quote. This question is for brother
37:20
Daniel. Who are those who have been
37:23
reading the book and what book is being referred to?
37:31
So it's it's pretty simple. People of the book who read the
37:36
book is in reference to the Abrahamic faiths.
37:40
So in among Abrahamic faiths, God had sent plenty of books
37:45
beginning with Abraham himself, whose accounts are found in the
37:51
book of Genesis. And then you have Jacob, you
37:55
have Joseph also in Genesis. And then from Moses it begins
38:01
and the books are Exodus and Deuteronomy.
38:05
In Exodus you have the first statement of the the the 10
38:09
commandments or the commandments that God gave to Moses on the
38:12
Mount Sinai. And then you have it restated in
38:16
Deuteronomy. I'm I'm sure Exodus and
38:18
Deuteronomy also include other stories about that time period
38:23
about the event of Exodus itself and their and the stories of
38:27
their wilderness. But the Torah is in between it.
38:33
Like the Torah is within the Exodus account, some chapters in
38:39
Exodus and also some chapters in Deuteronomy.
38:42
Not the whole of Deuteronomy or the whole of Exodus makes up the
38:46
Torah. And then you also have the
38:48
prophets beginning with obviously Samuel and King David
38:54
himself who was a prophet in the Quran.
38:57
And you have Solomon. And then you have the prophets
38:59
of Israel with Elijah. Elijah and lots of other
39:06
prophets such as Odate and going all the way to Isaiah, Jeremiah.
39:11
And then you have John the Baptist and Jesus in 1st
39:13
century. Obviously those accounts are
39:16
documented in the gospels. So these are the books that God
39:19
makes a reference to. OK, brother.
39:21
Daniel, thank you for your response.
39:24
Before I move on to brother grafted, remember earlier when I
39:28
asked you and I told you when I asked for whether it be cross
39:31
examinations, rebuttals, opening statements, I want you to be
39:34
prepared to be able to show how you know these things are true.
39:37
So you did say a lot about what books it is that so route 1094
39:41
was referring to. Can you show me though anywhere
39:44
in the Quran or can you show me any sort of evidence Quran wise
39:49
in in the Quran because you do believe that the Quran is the
39:51
word of God, correct? Yeah, I did.
39:57
OK, so if you believe that the Quran is the word of God, can
40:01
you show me in the Quran anywhere where it corroborates
40:05
that specific answer that you just gave?
40:07
I mean, you talked about the book of Genesis, you talked
40:09
about Deuteronomy. You talked about a lot of
40:11
different things, but the the the Quran, as far as I've ever
40:15
seen right, has never been. As specific as what you're
40:19
talking about, right? And because we're kind of diving
40:22
into this kind of general affirmation, but not complete
40:24
affirmation of the Bible. So my question to you, my follow
40:27
up question to that before we get to Brother Grafted is where
40:31
are you getting that answer from?
40:35
Oh you have. The Quran makes references to
40:39
the scriptures of Abraham where it says Sofa Ibrahim and Sofa
40:43
Mosa. Obviously God says God gave
40:46
Moses the Torah and God gave Zabur the Psalm to David.
40:53
And we also have the accounts of God saying that he communicated
40:59
to the prophets. And Elijah is mentioned by name,
41:03
not so much Oded or Samuel, but we have the mention of Samuel in
41:06
a subtle way not mentioning his name.
41:09
And we don't have Jeremiah or Isaiah mentioned but we have
41:13
those accounts mentioned in the Quran about them, so without
41:17
mentioning their names. So mostly when the Quran talks
41:20
about that information it does not necessarily bring in the
41:24
prophets name but we we have instances where it does bring in
41:28
some of the prophets name such as Elijah.
41:30
And I understand that, but but the reason I'm asking is because
41:33
the the the Surah 1094 is very specific.
41:36
It doesn't say those who have been reading the books or the
41:40
the revelations before you. It's not even plural.
41:43
It is literally just saying ask those who have been reading the
41:47
book, right? So it's not it's not saying
41:51
certain revelations. It's not saying this and that.
41:53
It is saying literally been reading the book.
41:56
So it is obviously here referring to one specific text,
42:00
right? So then you would have to say to
42:02
yourself, now where are you getting this idea that all of
42:07
those revelations that you named are specifically what it,
42:10
because there's nothing in the context of Surah chapter 10 that
42:13
tells you, OK, these are all the different books that we're
42:16
talking about. So talk to the people who've
42:17
been. Do you understand where I'm
42:18
coming from? That's what I'm asking you.
42:20
Got you. Yeah, got you.
42:21
It's it's a very generic referral to the book.
42:26
The book really means the book of God.
42:28
It could be the Gospel, it could be the Quran, it could be the
42:32
Torah. It could be it's just a book of
42:35
God. So you're basically saying
42:36
you're, you're essentially saying you're not sure then, and
42:39
that's OK if you're not. You're not sure It's it's just a
42:42
it's, it is a generic referral to the book of God.
42:46
It could be Torah, it could be constable.
42:48
So it could be both. It could be both.
42:50
OK. Grafted on the same question, do
42:53
you have any follow up to his answer and then we'll move on to
42:56
the second part of the question. As of now, no.
43:02
No. OK, so you have nothing to add
43:04
to his answer. Hello.
43:12
No, no, OK. All right, OK.
43:13
All right. So for the second part of this
43:15
question then for the Christian side, for Brother Grafta, do you
43:21
agree that this refers to the Jews and the Christians of
43:25
Muhammad's time? And if So, what does that imply
43:29
and how do you know? Yes, this doesn't this that's
43:34
basically direct itself at the Jews and the Christians of
43:37
Muhammad's time. First of all, this can easily be
43:39
necessitated by the fact that they are you know is a direction
43:43
towards those people like Mama has to actually go and question
43:46
them. How do I know because you've got
43:49
have seated exegetes who say the same thing.
43:52
They say that he is being asked, or at least the command was for
43:56
him, although he did not doubt and did not need to go and ask.
43:59
The command is clearly directed that way.
44:02
The third way that I know is by just general inference.
44:05
It necessitates that the people of the book would be people
44:08
accessible to Muhammad. This is the relationship
44:11
established between him because they have to affirm his
44:14
prophethood. And I'm just talking about the
44:17
general flow of what's going on there.
44:18
But, and, and I mean, I could even point to a bit of what
44:22
Daniel's answer was that in order for Muhammad to be able to
44:26
confirm this prophetic relationship he's experiencing
44:29
with Muhammad, he needs to be able to have access to the
44:32
people of the book in his time. Now and thank you for your
44:37
answer and a quick follow up now and I, and although I do in in
44:43
theory agree with what you're saying, my question to you is
44:46
how is there any way for you to be able to show the audience
44:49
that what prophet Daniel said is incorrect?
44:53
Is there any way for you to say, hey, listen, this is how we know
44:57
he wasn't just talking about some general affirmation, right?
45:00
Whatever they're saying is was revealed to Abraham, which is
45:03
news to me because I've never heard of anything being revealed
45:05
to Abraham that Moses had the Torah, David had the Psalms.
45:09
Right? But what I'm asking you is, is
45:11
there something in your mind that makes it clear that this is
45:15
talking about all the the Torah, the Psalms and the Gospel, the
45:19
New Testament? The New Testament specifically
45:24
is confirmed. I'm sorry with the New Testament
45:26
specifically concerned there's nothing clear about that.
45:29
I would say of course to that that I never made the statement
45:32
that the the New Testament was being confirmed with at least
45:35
within the bounds of Surat in 94.
45:37
I what I did necessitate was that it would at least have to
45:39
be the torture. Reason being is because it deals
45:42
with the early prophets and that was also something that I didn't
45:45
used. The Islamic consciences that
45:49
early to middle period making suitors such as 7 and 11 were
45:52
revealed predating suit at 1094. Which means that Muhammad had at
45:57
least revealed stories about Abraham, Noah, Adam, Lot as well
46:01
as Moses in the same kind of corpus before being asked to
46:04
check this with the people of the book.
46:06
So how I could then be sure of this is that I would simply
46:10
refer to the Tafseer exegetes once again.
46:13
Do you want me to pick a specific one out?
46:15
Sure. Whatever you want.
46:16
Yeah, OK, cool. So I'm going to use even of us.
46:24
OK, you have, you have 90 seconds, just so you know, 90
46:26
seconds. OK, cool, cool, cool.
46:28
There's no worries. So basically what we see here
46:34
with even of us is that he is saying that in fact it is not
46:39
directed at Muhammad because you know, he did not talk, but it it
46:43
says and I'll and I'll put it in quotes rather so until 94.
46:46
Even if I says rather allow us addressing with these words the
46:49
people of the prophet. Verily the truth from my Lord.
46:53
In other words, Gabriel with the Quran from my Lord containing
46:55
the events of past nations. So being out of the doubters if
47:00
again, and I won't necessitate this, if this command, at least
47:03
according to exegetes, is not necessarily just for Muhammad,
47:06
but for his contemporaries, they would need to be able to confirm
47:11
this as well with people contemplating to them.
47:15
I can use another, I can use another, another which would be
47:20
Maduri 1794, which is to back up the specific line of thinking,
47:24
which is that it is as regards to the reference of the people
47:27
of the book. It is because they possess the
47:28
knowledge of the scriptures, whereas the common people of
47:31
Arabia lack this and therefore they were strangers to the voice
47:34
of the Quran. So you actually have a
47:36
juxtaposition between the the knowledgeable ones and the
47:38
common people. In other words, you have two
47:40
classes of people at the same present moment to be able to
47:44
have this interchange dialogue. Thank you so much.
47:47
All right, right on time too. All right, we're going to move
47:50
on to question #2 gentlemen, for Prophet Daniel, if the book is
47:56
claimed to have been corrupted before Muhammad's time, why
48:00
would God instruct him to confirm his revelation with
48:03
people reading that same book? Are you good with the question
48:06
or you want me to repeat it? Oh, I got, I got your question.
48:10
Excellent. OK, Yeah, Yeah.
48:12
So I mean, I don't necessarily see a problem with that or a
48:17
logical fallacy of any kind. And also that early Muslim
48:23
opinions about what this could mean or their interpretation or
48:26
their understanding could well differ from what the Quranic
48:30
impetus was at that time when it was communicated to Prophet
48:34
Muhammad very specific, because Quran says very specific for in
48:38
Kuntafishak, if you are in doubt, it didn't say if the
48:41
believers are in doubt, right? So it was very specific to
48:44
Prophet Muhammad. It was for in Kuntafishak Kimim.
48:47
So it was directly communicating to Prophet Muhammad saying, if
48:51
you are in doubt about this divine communication that you're
48:53
receiving because of all of these accusations, do you have
48:55
you have to face from the people.
48:57
So don't fall in doubt. Just go and have a word with the
49:00
people of the book. They will tell you previously
49:03
prophets, human messengers were provided divine communication.
49:07
So even if the Quran, Quran does bring the premise that the Bible
49:11
has been corrupted, it is not posing an logical sort of
49:19
problem to Prophet Muhammad to go and verify prophecy in
49:23
general from the people of the book.
49:25
He could go and just talk, tell them, I mean, what do you think
49:28
about the one communication that God makes with people?
49:31
And they they would tell Jews and Christians both would tell
49:34
them, yeah, indeed, God has communicated previously to human
49:37
messengers like Moses, like all of the prophets of Israel.
49:41
So this would be a general affirmation or assurance to
49:45
Prophet Muhammad that God indeed communicates to human beings
49:49
through in a divine mode, in a divine, in a divine way.
49:53
So, so I don't necessarily see a problem why God would not tell
49:59
Prophet Muhammad to go and validate divine communication,
50:03
not the content, but divine communication when God goes on
50:08
to say in the Quran that the Bible has been corrupted.
50:10
So I don't see necessarily any problem with that.
50:13
So. All right.
50:17
Do you have a follow up to that Brother Grafton?
50:21
Yeah, I just want to and look, of course I understand that the
50:24
word these stories is in parentheses, but if the doubt is
50:28
about the stories and not the communication, then surely this
50:33
would affirm that the Bible has to have stories confirmed by a
50:38
biblical paradigm. When this command is given to
50:41
Muhammad to talk to the people of the book, you saying no, it's
50:45
just a method or mode of communication.
50:48
When I take what the actual text on pseudo United States, and
50:53
again, I do, I do obviously acknowledge that I, I, I see
50:56
some words on parentheticals. But if this the context is the
50:59
stories that are in doubt, that it is specific events that are,
51:04
are, are being doubted, then you have to run that by scripture,
51:09
not just simply people's general knowledge of Oh yeah, yeah, God
51:11
spoke to prophets. But what does that mean?
51:14
How does that prove propheted to Muhammad?
51:19
This is not even confirming his prophecy to people of the book.
51:24
This is not like, oh, people of the book should believe me
51:27
because I'm getting these stories from God.
51:29
This is not even about that. So this is this is generally
51:33
when people are making objections to him, accusations
51:35
to him that he's he's manufacturing it or he's
51:37
streaming it out, he's hallucinating or he's getting it
51:40
from the demon or whatever it is.
51:42
That sort of a doubt is dispelled when he goes and has
51:46
an affirmation from the people of the book who know that God
51:49
does divinely communicate to people.
51:51
It's not about validating stories either, because the
51:55
Quran would have directly told him that if that was the case.
51:58
But the Quran has the opposite thing to say, that some of the
52:01
stories in the Bible are corrupt so.
52:04
So why would the Quran do that? You could never do that because
52:08
literally right before 1094 it is telling you the story of
52:11
Moses and the Pharaoh. I told you the context of it.
52:15
The context is the context begins from 50 word 57 onwards.
52:19
So in the context, God provides this look, this is not something
52:22
new that is happening to you. Noah, our full time was
52:25
rejected. Moses was also rejected.
52:28
So this rejection of yours should not come hard on you.
52:30
Don't grieve, take it easy, don't grieve and don't doubt
52:34
this is God who's giving you this divine communication.
52:37
So that's the subject matter actually you got to be focusing
52:39
on. No, I understand what you're
52:41
saying and I was tracking along with that context that you
52:44
established. My point was the stories
52:47
themselves. I mean to be giving Muhammad
52:49
some type of comfort and assurance that he is receiving
52:52
divine revelation. My point, or at least let me
52:54
rephrase the question I was asking.
52:56
If he's asking the people of the book generally, did people
52:59
receive divine communication from God?
53:02
How would that prove or put anything at ease when the
53:06
stories are what are leading up to Surat in 94?
53:09
In other words, he would at least have to make them familiar
53:12
with Moses and prior early prophets within the the corpus
53:17
of the Torah. This is what he has to check and
53:19
run by them. Whether or not it is chicken,
53:22
hey it does the storyline up. It is hey Jews and Christians.
53:26
What did this prophet experience?
53:27
How did God speak to this prophet?
53:29
They would still have a scriptural reference in order to
53:32
give him that answer. That's what I'm saying.
53:34
So do you then see that this is still going to affirm the Bible
53:38
as the topic of this debate is? Not necessarily, as I would say
53:44
these are generic assurances that God is wanting them,
53:49
wanting him to have. And this has got nothing to do
53:51
with asserting that he was a prophet of God.
53:53
It was an assurance given to Prophet Muhammad himself and not
53:57
so much as proof making to other people of his time.
54:02
Yeah. Daniel, real quick, I, I, I want
54:04
a, a clarifying statement. If you would you, you have said
54:08
at least two or three times in a couple of your follow-ups that
54:12
God has made it clear that the Bible is corrupt.
54:14
You said that I want to say at least twice.
54:17
Can you clarify where you're getting that from?
54:21
Well in the in the chapter 2 you have clearly people, God telling
54:27
people that they wrote the book from their own hand and then
54:29
they claimed it to be from God. There is clear verses of that
54:35
nature apart from the reef. Obviously the reef is
54:39
decontextualizing the the words of God.
54:43
But God does clearly say in the Quran that people wrote books
54:48
with their own hands and he says misery to those who write stuff
54:53
with their own hands and then attribute it to God, misery to
54:56
misery for them for what they have written and misery for what
55:00
they're what the gains they are making with it.
55:02
So, so it's it's very specific thing that goes back to.
55:07
Yeah, I know you're talking about, I think it's Sarah 279 or
55:10
something like that, right? Is that the one you're talking
55:12
about? I, I, I could be wrong off the
55:13
top of my head, 270-8278 And the reason, the only reason that I
55:18
asked and, and as I'm, I'm stepping in as moderator now,
55:21
ladies and gentlemen, because this very same point came up
55:23
between Daniel Hikakichu and David Wood Wood where he Daniel,
55:29
that Daniel from that debate made the same assertion.
55:33
And then David Wood made it clear that that was not talking
55:37
about textual corruption of the existing scriptures, that it was
55:40
talking about people who were writing random other things and
55:43
claiming that it was the word of God and then profiting from
55:45
that. So that's why I was asking for
55:48
a, a clarifying statement, Prophet Daniel, because I don't
55:52
want anyone to be misled about what those verses are actually
55:55
saying. And I have actually at length
55:57
spoken about how Sarah 278 is not in even, not even remotely,
56:02
not even according to Muslim scholars talking about the Torah
56:05
and the Gospels being textually corrupted.
56:08
It's talking about people writing completely separate
56:10
texts and pretending like those things are from God.
56:12
So I wanted to make that clear. No longer going to interfere.
56:16
We're going to move into the second part of this question for
56:19
can I just say something? Sure.
56:22
Yeah, there's a problem when people read the early literature
56:26
of the secondary sources of the commentators, the exegetes and
56:31
the hadith literature about this, because that's where the
56:34
deviation is happening, because they are giving, they are
56:37
reading things that are totally unrelated to what the Quran has
56:40
to say. Because some of the exegetes,
56:43
what if they what they're saying, even including the
56:46
earliest ones, Ibn Kathir or even at Tabari for example, they
56:49
don't line up with the context of the Quran itself.
56:52
So it's not a good idea to back interpret conclusions onto the
56:57
Quran from the view of the early exegetes.
57:00
It's a bad idea or even from the hadith.
57:04
I mean, not a very bad idea and that's fine.
57:05
I, I, I and that's, that's you're welcome to your opinion.
57:08
But at the end of the day, we don't only have that.
57:10
I just, I can look at the plain reading of the Quran and tell
57:13
you that if this was God's word, and, and again, because you're
57:16
approaching, you're, you're directing it to me.
57:18
So I will answer you if you're saying that this is God's word.
57:21
I find it extraordinarily hard to believe that Surat 278 would
57:25
be so vague about what was being changed.
57:28
Because if it was the Gospels, if it was the Torah and it was
57:31
the Jews and the Christians attempting to change those
57:33
things, I promise and assure you that God would have been
57:36
extraordinarily specific about what they were changing.
57:38
But nor does Surat 278. That says nothing of the sort.
57:41
Surat 278 says that they wrote things.
57:44
No, but it's not. It says that they wrote things
57:46
with their hands and claim that it was from God.
57:48
It never once said, I want you to show me where it says that it
57:52
that it accused the Jews and the Christians of changing their
57:55
scriptures, their scriptures. Yeah, of course for that you
58:00
have to read the context of 278. If you read the context of 278,
58:06
it becomes apparent of what the Quran is actually directing
58:09
people to realize what was changed.
58:12
So you have to go like maybe 10 or 15 verses before and and read
58:16
the story that comes in the Quran and then you can make out,
58:19
oh, this is the story that Quran is talking about that was that
58:23
describes changed or altered. OK.
58:26
So you know what, we're going to put a pin in that.
58:27
We will put a pin in that because I definitely will speak
58:29
to you about that. But I'm not going to take
58:31
Grafted's a limelight away. So the second part of this
58:34
question, because we are only on question #2 before grafted, what
58:38
does. So we're going to start again
58:40
from the beginning because I know it's been a while.
58:43
So the entirety of the question is, for the Muslim side, if the
58:46
book is claimed to have been corrupted before Muhammad's
58:48
time, why would God instruct him to confirm his revelation with
58:51
people reading the same book? Prophet Daniel essentially said
58:56
that's not a contradiction, it's not a logical fallacy because
58:58
God made it clear, apparent according to Prophet Daniel's
59:01
explanation, that the Bible is corrupted according to God.
59:04
Now for the Christian side of the opposite side of that same
59:07
question, what does this instruction tell us about how
59:11
the Quran viewed the Bible in the 7th century from your
59:14
estimation? OK, so assuming that it is not a
59:20
contradiction for the Quran to be calling the Torah, there's a
59:24
bird, the gospel, whatever the corpus of the Bible is, at least
59:27
according to the understanding of the the maken allex right to
59:32
call. It means that you don't see an
59:36
issue with God effectively giving them.
59:40
And I mean, the gospel is even called a guidance and a light,
59:43
right? So it's almost like saying,
59:44
well, it's at some point it's stopped being a guidance and a
59:47
light. Not only that, the gospel comes
59:51
to confirm the Torah. So you've got a confirmation of
59:55
something that God actually was affirmed to applaud and the
59:58
guidance and the light now just completely gone to the the Jew
1:00:02
and the Christian. Understanding, absorbing,
1:00:05
digesting this claim from the Islamic polemic stance, It
1:00:10
completely makes God look inconsistent.
1:00:13
That's just what it does. I'd like just to answer your
1:00:15
question rather nothing. That is how it would appear to a
1:00:18
Germanic Christian. I agree, but I'm the moderator
1:00:22
so it doesn't matter what I think.
1:00:23
Ladies and gentlemen, this is for the audience.
1:00:25
Here's the thing. I listen, in case you guys
1:00:28
haven't noticed, and no matter who I agree with, I'm going to
1:00:31
be fair across the board. I pray to God that I'm doing
1:00:33
that fairly. If either one of you feel like
1:00:35
you've been treated unfairly, especially you, Prophet Daniel,
1:00:37
please do not hesitate to let me know.
1:00:39
I will check myself if necessary.
1:00:41
I'm a human being and I am far from perfect.
1:00:43
I am not Jesus Christ #3 for both sides.
1:00:48
Prophet Daniel, I'll let you go first.
1:00:50
What historical manuscript evidence exists for the state of
1:00:55
the Bible during Muhammad's lifetime and doesn't match what
1:00:59
we have today? Please cite specific examples,
1:01:03
pro or con. OK, you're you're asking me what
1:01:07
specific document existed during Prophet Muhammad's?
1:01:10
Time. I'll repeat it.
1:01:11
I'll repeat it. What historical manuscripts,
1:01:14
What historical manuscript evidence exist existed for the
1:01:19
state of the Bible? OK, So what manuscripts were
1:01:22
they utilizing for the Bible and its canonization during
1:01:25
Muhammad's lifetime and does it match what we have today?
1:01:29
Please cite specific examples. Pro or against I?
1:01:33
Think it would be fair to say that in that part of the world
1:01:37
people in the Jewish and the Christian people had synapticus.
1:01:41
I think the manuscript was which they were referring to in that
1:01:45
part of the world. And I'm sure that the the copy
1:01:50
did not include but some some of the books of the New Testament
1:01:54
at that point in time for the Christians.
1:01:57
But but regardless, I think I think the Jewish people
1:02:04
basically they were working on proto Mesorique texts at that
1:02:08
point in time, but the Christians had the synapticus
1:02:12
with them, which the Jewish people were not really in
1:02:14
complete agreement, but the Christians themselves lacked.
1:02:17
Some of the books that we find today as part of the Canon in
1:02:21
the Christian in the Christian Bible did not were not part of
1:02:25
the synapticus manuscript or or the book you can say at that
1:02:28
point in time in 7th century. So that's fine.
1:02:33
I mean, the Quran has no no qualms with it.
1:02:35
The Quran doesn't make any. It has a thing of importance
1:02:40
because the Quran understands the premise of the Quran is
1:02:43
look, the Quran is a Muhammadan Ali.
1:02:45
It's a guardian scripture over the previous scriptures and then
1:02:49
it clarifies things that have gone wrong in the Bible.
1:02:52
It gives you a correction of what God truly wanted to
1:02:56
communicate and then goes on to say, look, the Bible is indeed a
1:03:01
communication by Almighty God, which the scribes have handled
1:03:05
it falsely, but you still find in a light enlightenment and
1:03:10
guidance and the law of God is intact.
1:03:13
So when God is telling us there's enlightenment, there is
1:03:17
guidance, and the law of God is intact, then that's what it is.
1:03:22
So there is no confusion here or there is no fallacy here.
1:03:27
God, the Quran does provide us a clarification of the accounts
1:03:30
that went wrong. So we have it from the Quran and
1:03:32
the Quran has a position of Muhammad Ali, a guardian, takes
1:03:36
over the Bible. So when as a Muslim I look into
1:03:38
the Bible in the guide from the lens of the Quran, it's a great
1:03:43
thing. I mean, I love the Bible, I
1:03:45
study, I cherish the stories in the Bible.
1:03:47
There is great learning in the Bible and it's.
1:03:51
Because of the Quran. I read the Bible.
1:03:52
It's not because of a Christian telling me or a Jewish man
1:03:54
telling me to read the Bible. It's the Quran that's asking me
1:03:57
to go and read the Bible and and become knowledgeable of, of the
1:04:01
history of God's communication to Israelites.
1:04:03
And it's beautiful. I learn a lot of details from in
1:04:06
the Bible, in the gospel, the gospel is man.
1:04:08
It's incredible amount of information.
1:04:10
We will go on to benefit societies today if we
1:04:12
implemented them. So there's so much there as
1:04:16
rightly so God says that his enlightenment fee, he who don't
1:04:19
want know what God says in it is enlightenment and guidance.
1:04:23
So I mean without question, that's true.
1:04:27
So you what what you're saying without question what is true?
1:04:30
I'm sorry, just just what you were your your.
1:04:32
There's guidance, enlightenment in the in the Bible without
1:04:35
question, you know, right? Brother, Brother Grafton, I'll
1:04:38
repeat the question for you. What historical manuscript
1:04:41
evidence existed for the state of the Bible during Muhammad's
1:04:44
lifetime, and does it match what we have today?
1:04:46
Please cite specific examples. All right.
1:04:53
I guess I'll answer first, but if it's OK with you about
1:04:55
America also just went out, maybe just question one or two
1:04:57
things that Daniel mentioned. Please go ahead.
1:04:59
Yeah, Yep. OK, cool.
1:05:02
We would have sources that largely line up with the Bible
1:05:06
that at least between the the Bible that would have been
1:05:10
existing at Muhammad's time and our earlier manuscripts, right,
1:05:15
the Karima Gospels, which spread throughout the Ethiopian area.
1:05:19
We have of course an ethic as we've got and This is why I
1:05:25
asked if I could just question on something.
1:05:27
Total necessity texts were not something that were only started
1:05:33
in that kind of middle century period where, you know, Muhammad
1:05:38
was active. Proto Masoretic texts could even
1:05:41
be defined as texts that would line up as early as the Dead Sea
1:05:45
Scrolls but lined up with the actual finalized Hebrew
1:05:49
Masoretic text. So when you say they were
1:05:52
Masoretic texts being developed, like I'm just saying this
1:05:55
upfront, this doesn't kind of infer or this doesn't follow in
1:05:59
any way. And I'm not saying that this is
1:06:00
your claim, but I just want to make it clear.
1:06:02
This doesn't infer any kind of differentiating or developing
1:06:06
manuscript that would differ or break continuity with what was
1:06:10
already established in the Jewish or Christian worlds.
1:06:13
These texts go as far back as the Dead Sea Scrolls.
1:06:16
But basically we have the section, we've got the Cynicus,
1:06:20
we've got the Vaticanus, we've got the Grima Gospels and
1:06:23
largely the artistal variance, yes, but nothing affecting the
1:06:27
actual message, the core dogma, any doctrine, any actual truth
1:06:32
that would be found within our Christian and or Jewish Bibles.
1:06:36
No real serious variation between those early manuscripts
1:06:40
and what we've got today exists. You're correct.
1:06:43
I didn't claim that, Sir, no. No, I'm not saying you did that.
1:06:46
It was just the proto, the proto method.
1:06:47
It could be seen as a misleading claim.
1:06:50
I just wanted to. I'm not.
1:06:51
I'm not accusing of anything. So yeah.
1:06:54
All right. So you want to move on to
1:06:55
answering the question now, Grafton?
1:07:00
But so I feel like I did, but maybe I just no, I mean I think.
1:07:02
You did. I don't know if there was
1:07:03
anything you wanted to address directly or you guys want to
1:07:06
move on. I do want to at least one other
1:07:09
thing right in. On one hand, I do feel like it
1:07:13
is quite a hectic question. Like from the Islamic paradigm,
1:07:16
I don't see how Daniel would be able to provide the manuscript
1:07:19
evidence you're asking for. But in the same vein, I also
1:07:21
don't feel like Daniel, you really answers the question
1:07:24
other than kind of just like appealing to the claims of the
1:07:26
Quran. And that's a problem for me
1:07:28
because it is circular and I couldn't go back to the opening
1:07:30
statement I made. I know, maybe you misunderstand.
1:07:37
Yeah, sorry. Hold on and I will.
1:07:38
I will chime in. I will chime in to say that he
1:07:44
did talk about the Codex Sinaticus.
1:07:47
He did talk about how there were Codex Sinaticus, how there were
1:07:51
stories such as the Common Johannium, which was one thing
1:07:55
that Muslim apologists love that they try to assert as biblical
1:08:01
corruption. Although the Common Johannium
1:08:03
was already an oral tradition. And then the, and the, the Latin
1:08:08
manuscripts, it was not in the Koine Greek.
1:08:11
And so, you know, outsiders will look in and say, well, that's
1:08:14
corruption. Now you look at it however you
1:08:16
want. But he did talk about the
1:08:18
Konasan Atticus, which was in existence at the time of
1:08:21
Muhammad. So he, I mean, he did, he did
1:08:23
answer, he did start appealing to emotion a little bit of how
1:08:26
much he loves. He did talk about, you know, he,
1:08:29
he, the, what's disturbing to me, brother Daniel and I will be
1:08:32
honest with you and a lot of your answer, regardless of what
1:08:36
we're talking about, is you're appealing a lot to this general
1:08:39
affirmation, which to me, I'm sorry.
1:08:42
And I and, and, and complete transparency, ladies and
1:08:45
gentlemen, And I, I think I've talked to brother Daniel about
1:08:47
this before. I don't know that I've talked to
1:08:48
brother grafted about this before, but I use when I I have
1:08:53
a very interesting use for AI that I've actually shown people
1:08:56
here on the chat how to do and I've shown people how to
1:09:01
appropriately right now, if you want to manipulate AI, if you
1:09:05
want to do the Lily Jay, do whatever you guys want to do,
1:09:07
right? But this is a quick intermission
1:09:09
to let you guys know that I am going to be taking a transcript
1:09:12
of this and I'm going to be running it through a computer
1:09:14
engine because as a Christian, anybody can point to me and say,
1:09:17
well, you're not biased. And guess what?
1:09:18
They would be right, right. I can't take the transcript of
1:09:22
any Muslim and Christian and be be accused of being fair in my
1:09:26
assessment because as a as a person who has a a relationship
1:09:29
with Jesus Christ, I know that I'm not going to see things in a
1:09:33
way that a lot of people on in the outside are going to see it.
1:09:35
So I'm going to run it through. But I will tell you, brother
1:09:38
Daniel, in that same vein that you continue to appeal to this,
1:09:43
I wouldn't say very new, but it's it's growing in popularity,
1:09:47
right? And I know that Dean responds is
1:09:50
is trying to hammer this point home.
1:09:52
And I don't know why, because he's failing miserably like he
1:09:54
does and everything else, as well as Libiano as well as
1:09:56
Daniel Hikachu that they're they're appealing to this sense
1:10:02
of general affirmation of the Bible, right.
1:10:05
And when asked to actually prove that they're not able to.
1:10:09
And I, with all respect, I don't feel that you have sufficiently
1:10:12
even remotely approached how to show in the Quran that it
1:10:16
generally affirms anything, right?
1:10:18
You've spoken about things, you've spoken about different
1:10:20
books you've said, and you say things like read in context or
1:10:23
whatever. But at this point, I'm just, I'm
1:10:25
being honest with you as an outsider looking in, not
1:10:29
participating, that you continue to mention this general
1:10:32
affirmation. But we have yet to see how the
1:10:37
Quran only generally affirms the Bible, but not completely right.
1:10:42
So again, that's that's just a side note.
1:10:45
We're going to move on to question #4 which Daniel will be
1:10:47
able to answer for Brother Daniel.
1:10:50
How do early tafsir sources such as Al Tabadi or Iban Kathir
1:10:55
interpret Sarah 1094 and do they indicate the book was authentic
1:11:00
at that time? This is a tough question for me
1:11:06
because I don't as a norm read. I don't as a norm read other
1:11:14
exegetes or I I never I to be honest with you, I never read
1:11:19
the Quran from someone's point of view except for translations
1:11:24
for example. So I did read the translation of
1:11:27
the Quran from Abdullah Yousuf Ali when I was growing up.
1:11:30
Are you Quran? Only, yeah, I, I prefer that
1:11:35
position, all right, I, because Quran is the communication of
1:11:39
Almighty God and people may have said hundreds of things later on
1:11:43
about it, but those things do not necessarily become true
1:11:47
about it and. So you disagree, so you so you
1:11:51
disagree. To be clear, you disagree with
1:11:53
Daniel Hikakichu then because in his opening statement he said
1:11:57
that not only is it not only do real Muslims According to him
1:12:01
have to follow the Quran, but also the hadith and the tafsir.
1:12:05
That's that's his statement. I know.
1:12:09
The fact of the matter is I'm not popular among Muslims
1:12:12
because, OK, no, you know, they, they kind of don't like my
1:12:17
approach into the Quran. I see.
1:12:18
To be honest with you, to be honest with you, I was brought
1:12:22
up in a Sunni environment, went to the Sunni mosque, my friend,
1:12:27
my community, they were also Sunni Muslims.
1:12:31
And the increasing narrative that I get to listen today on
1:12:35
YouTube about Sunnis is remotely even not linked to the Sunni
1:12:40
community that I came from, actually.
1:12:42
So in my community, reading the hadith or the exiges of the
1:12:47
previous people wasn't a norm. It wasn't common.
1:12:50
Nobody did this and I never saw my family, any of the family
1:12:53
members doing it. We have hardly time to read the
1:12:56
Quran, let alone reading the books of Hadith, which are like
1:13:00
30 times larger than the Quran. And these exigencies which we
1:13:05
know, we, I mean, we don't, Muslims in general don't relate
1:13:10
to the Quran through these people.
1:13:12
It's only you can say in religious institutions is where
1:13:16
this this sort of a process is followed because they want to
1:13:20
they want to know more about the Quran.
1:13:22
So they go to this College of the past and they study them and
1:13:26
they they also might preach in the mosques, which is
1:13:29
understandable. But as a common Muslim, a common
1:13:33
Muslim hardly has time to go and refer to the books of Hadith.
1:13:36
I'm sure all of these people, they have not read Hadees
1:13:39
themselves. I'm sure even Hakika Ju has not
1:13:42
read Bukhari the whole Bukhari even once.
1:13:46
I can, I can challenge you on this.
1:13:48
Don't. Don't say that.
1:13:48
Don't say that to him, you'll probably start swearing at you.
1:13:51
No, I can challenge him. I'm sure.
1:13:53
I'm 100% certain I should not say 100 because I'm not God.
1:13:57
You're not 999990 I knew it. I knew it.
1:14:00
I knew it. I knew it.
1:14:02
But he. Hasn't he hasn't read the Buhari
1:14:05
cover to cover once? Even once OK hasn't so full.
1:14:08
Full transparency, ladies and gentlemen, I've looked at Sahib
1:14:11
Bugatti and I looked at it. I was like, yeah, I'm not
1:14:13
reading all that. I will reference.
1:14:16
I will reference it when I need to, but I'm not reading anything
1:14:19
from cover to cover. There's no way I'll be.
1:14:20
It'll be there forever. Yeah.
1:14:23
So you are. So are you.
1:14:24
Do you consider yourself a Shia? I don't.
1:14:27
Are you like you're not Sunni, obviously.
1:14:30
I'm not a, I'm not a Shia. I, I, I was brought up Sunni
1:14:34
Muslim, but I would consider myself Sunni Muslim in
1:14:37
comparison to Shia, for example. But according to the Sunnis
1:14:41
these days I get to listen to them on Internet.
1:14:43
I'm not even Sunni. You know what I mean?
1:14:45
I don't care about, I don't care basically being Sunni or Shia,
1:14:49
basically. That's wrong.
1:14:51
This is not even a theological distinction.
1:14:53
It's a political distinction that happened in, in very early
1:14:57
Islam. It's got nothing to do with
1:14:59
hadees because the Sunnis reject the Hadees of the Shia.
1:15:02
The Shias reject the Hadees of the Sunnis.
1:15:04
They're both in fact are hadees rejecters, right?
1:15:06
So why? Why accuse me of rejecting the
1:15:08
Hadees? Because you do it yourself.
1:15:11
So what I'm saying is. So to be fair, we can basically
1:15:14
say that you'd you don't, you will have, you don't care
1:15:19
essentially what the early top series say about the Quran.
1:15:22
Is what you're saying basically right?
1:15:23
Yeah, because God does not require me to believe in all of
1:15:26
those things. He requires me to believe in the
1:15:28
book of God, which he says. It's pretty clear God has
1:15:30
clarified it. God has elucidated it, so I
1:15:33
don't need a different source. I mean, I have done my works, my
1:15:36
books, and my translation without reference to all of
1:15:39
these earlier material. Absolutely.
1:15:42
Fair enough, Fair enough for brother Grafted.
1:15:46
How do you respond to later Islamic claims later, not at the
1:15:50
time of Muhammad, but later Islamic claims of textual
1:15:53
corruption in light of these early tafsir interpretations?
1:15:59
From a personal level, it would probably be with big scrutiny
1:16:06
and, and the reason for this is because I'm going to take it
1:16:09
based on the manuscript evidence.
1:16:11
As well. As the lateness of some of the
1:16:14
scholars, for example, I take like even Kathy, he was a very
1:16:19
respected exegete, a very respected scholar, but like his
1:16:22
time of birth and and how late he is compared to the actual
1:16:26
companions of Muhammad. The you can literally see the
1:16:30
gap in the narrative, right? I, I mean, I know that like,
1:16:34
yeah, I probably would myself will be out on the screen and we
1:16:37
ought to provide like the evidence, but I'm just saying
1:16:39
you, you can see that it's, it's a lot more like the later
1:16:43
exegetes that are, are, are, are creating this narrative of at
1:16:46
least complete textual corruption.
1:16:47
I know that the Quran makes claims of people producing new
1:16:52
manuscripts, writing everything with their own hand.
1:16:54
Yes, of course. But this doesn't an actual
1:16:57
original textual corruption, or at least not a wholesale textual
1:17:00
corruption. I don't see that narrative
1:17:02
anywhere within the Quran. I don't see a wholesale.
1:17:06
I see interpretive and I see in the states of reproduction.
1:17:11
Excellent. Now brother grafted, that kind
1:17:14
of takes us back to I do have a follow up question for you and
1:17:18
then I'm going to turn it back over to brother Daniel to follow
1:17:20
up with anything he may want to say.
1:17:23
You said you don't see wholesale corruption of the Bible, right?
1:17:26
That kind of takes us back to Surat 278, right?
1:17:30
In in in reference to 1094, ladies and gentlemen, we're not
1:17:32
off 1094, but Brother Daniel opened the gate for 278 talking
1:17:38
about textual corruption or how he thinks it means sexual
1:17:40
corruption. How do you respond to that
1:17:43
Brother Grafton? Fully honest who?
1:17:49
Who? Transparency, initially I've
1:17:54
expected this to be something more like a panel discussion as
1:17:56
opposed to like a full on debate and that might be my own force
1:17:59
not seeking clarity with Brother Maverick in the beginning about
1:18:01
the format of the stream. That's fine.
1:18:03
But I was actually going to press on this and it is that
1:18:07
again, coming back to my opening statement, I am willing to grant
1:18:10
a portion of the Islamic dilemma as being an internal critique,
1:18:13
but there has to be some kind of external measuring factor.
1:18:16
And so I guess it's like if you open up to 78, then I have to
1:18:20
ask what constitutes corruption I'm speaking from If you are
1:18:24
taking this purely as just the context of the Quran and the
1:18:27
Quran calls X corruption, what is that?
1:18:30
What constitutes corruption to you?
1:18:34
So that verse is very specific. It might come with a shock to
1:18:38
you, but that's very specific. It goes back to the times of
1:18:44
wilderness when the Israelites, the Hebrews, after having come
1:18:49
from Egypt, we're battling hard, obeying Moses, and Moses went to
1:18:56
Mount Sinai. So what the Hebrews do is they
1:18:59
create a golden calf and they worship it.
1:19:01
Moses comes back, drops down the tablets, breaks them and
1:19:06
admonishes them and punishes the the evildoers.
1:19:11
And then the Hebrews continue to do malevolence that there was a
1:19:17
story that really happened at that time, which is found in the
1:19:21
Quran because God is narrating the truth.
1:19:23
But the same story as comes in the in the Genesis account.
1:19:28
I'm not sure it whether it is in Genesis.
1:19:32
I'm I'm certainly sure it's not in Genesis.
1:19:34
It I'm not, but I'm not sure whether it is in Exodus or in
1:19:38
the later book. I think in Leviticus.
1:19:40
I'm not sure which exact book it is, but the story of the red
1:19:43
heifer is what I'm what I'm referring to.
1:19:46
I think it's, it comes in numbers, I suppose numbers.
1:19:48
So and the book of numbers is where the story comes the red
1:19:51
heifer and the context in Surat Bakara is about red heifer,
1:19:56
right? So you know exactly what the
1:19:58
Quran is talking about. It's not a very generic
1:20:00
statement that the whole book has been corrupted.
1:20:02
It's it's a very specific account where the Quran says
1:20:06
they wrote it from their own hands and they called it upon
1:20:09
God. So woe for them for what they've
1:20:11
written and woe for what the the gain that they've made.
1:20:14
So this story, as is reckoned, I think it's in the Book of
1:20:17
Numbers, but you can always verify how it goes, is like
1:20:21
this. So the Hebrews, they basically
1:20:27
carried the culture of the Egyptians, and they were even
1:20:31
ranting on Moses. Oh, why did you get us out of
1:20:33
Egypt? We're comfortable there.
1:20:35
We're eating fish, we're eating that, we're eating this.
1:20:37
So we're comfortable. We had easy life, but you guys,
1:20:39
you got us into trouble and we have to suffer these wandering
1:20:44
in the wilderness and all of that sort of stuff.
1:20:47
And they go, they carried this culture of Egyptians.
1:20:53
They had affinity too, because they had gotten used to the the
1:20:59
religious culture and tradition of the Egyptians and that's why
1:21:02
they worship the calf and they had the affinity towards bull
1:21:09
worship as the Egyptians would do, right?
1:21:12
So God wants them to clean themselves from these foreign
1:21:17
cultures and foreign theologies. So what I did doing is the
1:21:23
Hebrews commit a murder and what God does is look.
1:21:29
Get a bull. Get a.
1:21:31
Bull and kill the bull and I'm going to lead you to something.
1:21:36
So they do it reluctantly as the Quran says the Quran gets this
1:21:42
story in very good detail and precise detail.
1:21:45
The Quran says they did it although reluctantly.
1:21:48
So once they do it, God's God says in the Quran, take, take
1:21:52
the meat of the of the bull and put it on the corpse that was
1:21:58
dead. And when they did that, the Corp
1:22:01
stood up and he witnessed who had killed him, right?
1:22:05
So a secret that the Hebrew elders wanted to keep a secret.
1:22:10
God brought that secret. He unveiled it, right?
1:22:14
He unveils it through this miracle, right?
1:22:17
And the miracle was a lesson for Hebrews to learn that this
1:22:24
theology, the Egyptian culture is not the appropriate thing.
1:22:29
They should get rid of it. So God taught them a lesson how
1:22:32
to kill the bull and not actually worship it and actually
1:22:35
in fact eat it. And through this he brought
1:22:37
something that they wanted to keep a secret to light.
1:22:40
But Hebrews was so skilled, they covered this their their guilt
1:22:45
of when they documented the story in Numbers, they still
1:22:48
called it up and called it like a ritual parity.
1:22:50
So this is what the choir is alluding to, right?
1:22:53
Very specific. It's not making a general
1:22:55
statement. Very, very specific.
1:22:57
Oh, OK. So yeah, go.
1:23:00
Ahead. No, go ahead, go ahead.
1:23:02
Again, coming back to what? 279 is coming back.
1:23:06
It's a obvious textual target, but this is exactly where I
1:23:09
would go. A part of this has to be
1:23:12
externally examined. Where do you find a textual
1:23:17
either overwrite A textual copy that differs from what the Quran
1:23:23
says existed. Yeah, this is how we'd actually
1:23:26
constitute corruption. To simply just take the Kuran on
1:23:29
its own internal claim would effectively be fallacious.
1:23:31
It's like me telling my when my daughter sees daddy someone
1:23:34
touched me, I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, my daughter sees it
1:23:36
happened without actually going and looking at the external
1:23:38
evidence. For all I know, my daughter
1:23:40
could have a wild imagination. You understand, like that
1:23:43
becomes circular. And so this is what I'm saying.
1:23:46
Like if a claim of textual corruption is being made my
1:23:50
again my critique becomes how do we measure that externally?
1:23:54
Right. Yeah, Yeah, you can.
1:23:56
You can measure it externally. The way you can measure it is go
1:24:00
back to the Bible and you have Jeremiah stating the same exact
1:24:03
thing that the Quran says. So Jeremiah says the pen of the
1:24:06
lying scribes has written these lies.
1:24:09
So why do you even call yourselves wise men?
1:24:11
Because God will punish these wise men who have corrupted the
1:24:14
Scriptures. So Jeremiah, he's telling the
1:24:17
exact same thing that the Quran says.
1:24:19
So why do you even think it's an Islamic dilemma?
1:24:21
It should basically be a prophetic dilemma because
1:24:24
Jeremiah goes and says the same thing.
1:24:27
Well, I think, I think what he was alluding to brother Daniel
1:24:30
and and and again, not because I'm trying so like, and you
1:24:33
referenced you the things that you referenced, right.
1:24:37
And you're talking about rewrites and all these other
1:24:39
things. But the reason that we're saying
1:24:40
is, and that's why I was so staunch about making sure you
1:24:43
provide evidence, because you're, you're kind of referring
1:24:46
to things, right? But you're referring to things
1:24:49
without saying. And this is how we know, right?
1:24:52
Because my issue with, I mean, one of the many issues is, and I
1:24:56
think what kind of brother Grafton was trying to get to
1:24:58
this is 1 specific example is like for, from the way that I
1:25:01
look at it, we have the Dead Sea Scrolls, right?
1:25:03
And the Dead Sea Scrolls, we already know how old they are.
1:25:06
And the Dead Sea Scrolls contain the Torah, which includes the
1:25:09
Book of Numbers, which you were speaking about, right?
1:25:11
And in the Dead Sea Scrolls we find the same ritual
1:25:14
instructions as we do in the modern mesoratic text, right?
1:25:18
And that predates Mohammed by over 600 years, proving that the
1:25:22
Jewish account was already like today's.
1:25:25
So there is no sign anywhere in history manuscripturally of a
1:25:28
later rewrite. That's why I said when you make
1:25:31
the assertions that you make, you have to have evidence
1:25:35
because nothing that you're saying is reflected in actual
1:25:38
evidence or history. But I, but I digress.
1:25:40
So did you have anything else to, to follow up with Brother
1:25:44
Grafton? Because I, I know that, I know
1:25:46
that there's, you know, we have one last question.
1:25:47
I know you got to get off soon. And there's one more question I
1:25:49
wanted to get to SO. I'm happy to keep staying.
1:25:52
All right? Cool.
1:25:52
Especially. No, that's fine.
1:25:54
Mind me later cross examination could take place this later on.
1:25:58
I might just touch on some stuff.
1:25:59
Yeah, please. Of the conversation, please.
1:26:02
No, you are welcome to stay as long as you can, I just didn't
1:26:05
want to violate your time or disrespect your time.
1:26:07
Thank you. No problem, Daniel.
1:26:09
Again, if you're going to appeal to Jeremiah, you can, Especially
1:26:12
as someone who feeds purely of just the context of the
1:26:16
scriptures and you don't feel an exegetical commentaries or
1:26:19
anything else to lay the context for you.
1:26:21
Then you're going to have to prove what you are saying from
1:26:24
the context of Jeremiah that this is lining up with what the
1:26:27
Quran is saying. Because now you're stitching a
1:26:29
confirmation context between two different passages across two
1:26:32
different textual corpuses. Because you're requesting me to
1:26:35
do so. I wouldn't.
1:26:37
I wouldn't bring up Jeremiah unless you're requested me to do
1:26:40
so. Because you asked me how can we?
1:26:42
You gave me an example of, you know, someone touching your
1:26:44
daughter or how you can validate it.
1:26:47
That's why I'm bringing it up because I don't even go to, I
1:26:49
don't necessarily feel obliged to go and refer Jeremiah because
1:26:54
in this particular matter, because even the like, I kind of
1:26:59
understand where you guys are coming from.
1:27:01
You have the impression that 279 it means that somebody in 7th
1:27:09
century during Prophet Muhammad's time were
1:27:12
proliferating scriptures by writing it and selling it and
1:27:14
making it, making it a business. It's a fallacious account that
1:27:20
even though it's come up in Islamic secondary sources or
1:27:23
existences of Islamic sources, it's a fallacious account.
1:27:27
I mean, people would not normally do that and you know,
1:27:32
making money out of duplicating scriptures, they wouldn't do
1:27:36
that. So it's not about making money.
1:27:38
Somebody writing scriptures on papyri and selling them off
1:27:41
during 7th century Arabia. It's not even that because
1:27:45
you're obsessed with this idea. You want to back projected.
1:27:49
But go just just look at the Quran, what it's telling you
1:27:54
will find evidence, you will find meaning in what I'm telling
1:27:58
you, right. So the accurate thing, what is
1:28:01
happening is not even in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
1:28:03
So even Dead Sea Scrolls are post data to Jeremiah, for
1:28:07
example. Jeremiah actually, you know, way
1:28:13
before in history is telling you the scribes have corrupted the
1:28:16
scriptures. So we are not even looking at
1:28:18
proto Missouri texts, we are looking at proto sectarian
1:28:21
texts, right? Go back way back.
1:28:24
So when the first time the scribes wrote it, they wrote it
1:28:27
wrong. They hate their crimes, they
1:28:30
hate their guilt. The first time, the very first
1:28:32
time writing it, did it. Daniel, I'm gonna stop you.
1:28:35
I'm. Gonna.
1:28:36
Stop you. I'm gonna stop you right there.
1:28:38
I, I, I asked you. Hang on.
1:28:40
Hang on one second, Brett, because again, you are making an
1:28:44
assertion absent any actual historical evidence.
1:28:47
You can make the claims about the scribes of the book of
1:28:50
Jeremiah, but you are saying we'll look back.
1:28:53
No, you're making the assertion. You have to make it clear.
1:28:57
What are you referencing? What in history are you talking
1:29:01
about? Not just Prophet Daniels
1:29:03
interpretation of this is what happened because I think so.
1:29:06
Just like you made another false statement.
1:29:08
Well people didn't normally do this.
1:29:09
People have been falsifying the word of God and selling it for
1:29:11
profit for centuries. So I don't understand where
1:29:14
you're getting that from. Your own Quran makes it clear
1:29:16
that these people wrote down text saying it was from God and
1:29:20
profited from it. Now you're saying that what's in
1:29:23
your own Quran? It's your statement that you're
1:29:27
saying people didn't do it. The Quran is saying that people
1:29:30
were writing scripture down, claiming it was from God and
1:29:34
profiting from it. Nobody was profiting from the
1:29:36
Torah or the Bible. So that's already false
1:29:39
assertion #1 and false assertion #2 is that you're saying that
1:29:42
the scribes are hiding their crimes, the scribes of the Book
1:29:45
of Jeremiah, absent any historical evidence.
1:29:47
So if you're going to make those claims as a moderator now, I'm
1:29:50
going to hold your feet, your feet to the fire on that.
1:29:52
What is your historical evidence that these scribes copied the
1:29:56
stories wrong? What?
1:29:58
And I don't want to know. I don't want to hear.
1:30:00
Oh, well, if you look at it, no, no, no, no.
1:30:01
I want to know what I don't know if you can, You can appeal to a
1:30:04
scholar. You can appeal to some
1:30:05
historical documentation. You can appeal to to manuscripts
1:30:09
being found that have been proven to be altered.
1:30:11
But you don't get to just say that and then just skip past it
1:30:14
like you didn't just say what you just said.
1:30:17
OK, I'm not even alluding to manuscripts that have been
1:30:20
changed or altered, all right, or proliferated.
1:30:24
I'm not even referring to that. I'm, I'm referring to a credible
1:30:26
source. Who can be more credible than
1:30:29
the prophet of God himself, which is Jeremiah the prophet.
1:30:32
Jeremiah the prophet says the scribes handled it falsely.
1:30:35
Not his document, not his, not the book of Jeremiah, but he's
1:30:39
talking, he's making a reference to the documentation of the
1:30:43
scriptures before him. So he says the scribes have
1:30:46
handled it falsely and God is going to punish them, right?
1:30:49
So if you, if you study the Jeremiah's words in context, go
1:30:53
to Chapter 7 seven Jeremiah and read the context and you will
1:30:57
see Jeremiah making references to their false sacrifices
1:31:01
sacrificial system, right? So Jeremiah clearly goes on to
1:31:05
say this false sacrificial system that you've gotten in the
1:31:08
scriptures everywhere in the Old Testament is just false.
1:31:12
Your scribes have handled it falsely.
1:31:13
Do. You OK, so right, OK, but do you
1:31:16
know, do you even OK, so first of all, this is ladies and
1:31:19
gentlemen, This is why I'm that I moderated and I'm glad that I
1:31:22
know you do understand what you're.
1:31:24
The insinuation you're making is a complete falsehood because
1:31:27
Jeremiah's statement that you're alluding to that you're trying
1:31:29
to twist to make it mean what you want it to mean does not
1:31:32
mean that OK, Jeremiah's statement was a prophetic
1:31:36
rebuke. It was not a textual criticism
1:31:39
in the modern sense. Jeremiah was calling out
1:31:41
religious leaders who were misusing, twisting, and
1:31:44
misapplying God's law much like the Pharisees did while claiming
1:31:48
to uphold it. Okay, I mean, you can say not
1:31:51
all you want, but at the end of the day, I mean, you can
1:31:54
disagree, but This is why I asked you for proof, because I
1:31:56
knew that you were going to go to the Bible again.
1:31:59
But in what you're doing, in other words, is you're trying to
1:32:02
make it seem like Jeremiah was saying something he wasn't
1:32:05
because you want it to mean that, right?
1:32:07
But what Jeremiah was saying is about corrupt handling and
1:32:10
teaching. It's not about someone secretly
1:32:12
rewriting Genesis or Numbers. There's no, as a matter of fact,
1:32:15
here's the thing. And This is why I asked you,
1:32:16
because I knew you were going to do this.
1:32:18
There is no, and I repeat no, and I challenge you to find it,
1:32:22
there is no archaeological or manuscript evidence showing the
1:32:25
Torah text in Jeremiah's day was altered.
1:32:28
Not a single manuscript of all of them, right?
1:32:31
And that's a huge problem for you.
1:32:33
Well, thank you. So that at the end of the day.
1:32:35
I agree with you. I agree with you because you're
1:32:37
not listening to what I'm saying.
1:32:39
I'm not saying somebody altered the text.
1:32:41
What I'm saying is for the very first time when the scribe wrote
1:32:44
it, they handled it falsely. But the very first time.
1:32:46
That's not what he's right. That's not what he's talking
1:32:49
about. Right, sorry.
1:32:52
So you're saying the very first time when the accounts are being
1:32:54
written of the wilderness, for example, the very first time
1:32:57
that they're writing it as he prescribes, they are hiding
1:32:59
their guilt from the get go. And that's what Jeremiah is
1:33:03
telling you, the pen, he says very, very specific, the writing
1:33:07
pen of the scribes handled it falsely.
1:33:09
So. So there's the reason.
1:33:11
Why? I asked you to go into the
1:33:14
context of Jeremiah to support textual corruption.
1:33:17
You'd have to literally read what Jeremiah's talking about.
1:33:21
If if it's a prophet like Jeremiah that is actually
1:33:24
calling this out, it still seems very inconsistent and ad hoc.
1:33:27
And this is not me trying to just simply discredit you for
1:33:29
the sake of this. You literally have earlier
1:33:32
prophets who could have called the same thing.
1:33:34
Jeremiah's not one of the earliest prophets, right?
1:33:36
He's like 6 BC you've got centuries between the exodus
1:33:43
where these scriptures would have been falsely written down
1:33:46
in the 1st place. Like God had so much time to
1:33:48
call that out. Right.
1:33:49
And and and and to and to and to, yes, and to and, and to
1:33:54
piggyback onto Grafton, because I know Grafton wasn't ready for
1:33:56
a full debate today, but I want to make it clear to everybody in
1:33:59
the audience because I don't want anyone to hear something
1:34:02
about the Bible and actually believe it if it's not true.
1:34:05
Research this for yourselves, ladies and gentlemen, because
1:34:07
nothing in the text, nothing in the text in the book of
1:34:11
Jeremiah, right? Nothing insinuates from that the
1:34:15
very first time the Torah was written describes falsified
1:34:18
nothing. That's what that that is brother
1:34:20
Daniel inserting his own an idea into the verse because the
1:34:23
Hebrew phrase in Jeremiah chapter 8, verse 8, lying pen is
1:34:28
a prophetic metaphor for perverting God's word in
1:34:32
application and interpretation. And there's not an
1:34:35
archaeological claim about altered parchment or about
1:34:39
anyone lying from the very beginning.
1:34:41
And his brother Grafted said Jeremiah came much, much, much
1:34:45
later, much later than than than most of the early prophets.
1:34:48
Right. Six BCI did 6-7 BC around there
1:34:51
and I'd have to look it up. It's the exact year, but that
1:34:53
what you're saying is completely false.
1:34:55
Again, I understand that you're reading it the way that you want
1:34:57
to. You saw a line pen.
1:34:58
You're like, oh, they're writing it wrong.
1:34:59
But that's that's I'm sorry if if you look at it, especially in
1:35:02
its context and you look at the ancient Hebrew and you look at
1:35:05
the translations and you look at the lexicons, you'll see that
1:35:08
what you're saying is completely false.
1:35:09
So. Yeah, just one point.
1:35:11
Briefly, the context. For the context, you have to
1:35:14
read Chapter 7 in Jeremiah. I know.
1:35:17
I know, I know. Yeah, I I, I, I don't even.
1:35:20
Ladies and gentlemen, I don't even recommend reading Chapter
1:35:24
7. I recommend reading the entire
1:35:26
book of Jeremiah. Jeremiah, right?
1:35:28
Don't just read Chapter 7, Read all of it and then look at the
1:35:32
Hebrew lexicons. Look at what is said in
1:35:34
apologetics. Look at what is said by the by
1:35:36
the by the linguistic experts. Look at what is said by the
1:35:38
historians, Look at the original manuscripts and you will see
1:35:41
that that's completely false. I think that that's what it's
1:35:44
very popular in Muslim circles, that that's what people try to
1:35:46
do. They like to they like to look
1:35:49
for exact words and then say, you see, this is what this
1:35:52
means. And then they'll they'll say
1:35:53
like for what they do with Surat 278.
1:35:55
And they will make the the the assertion that the Bible is
1:35:58
corrupted because people were writing things and saying it was
1:36:00
from God. But then they will say, well,
1:36:03
yeah, we don't, we can't say that it it says that they
1:36:06
changed their scriptures, but we're just going to assume that
1:36:09
that's what they're talking about.
1:36:10
Absent they they have to completely ignore the plain
1:36:12
reading of what the Quran actually says to make that leap.
1:36:15
But it is what it is. I've been a boy.
1:36:20
Go. Ahead, go ahead.
1:36:22
I'd like to ask a question real quick.
1:36:24
I I have noticed Daniel and you know, I love you brother, but
1:36:27
you do seem really really like dead focused on that Jeremiah
1:36:31
verse. I'm curious what you get from
1:36:33
the verse Second Timothy 316 all scripture is God breathed.
1:36:39
What do you get from that? What does that mean?
1:36:44
Yeah, look, personally, I will answer that in a in a moment,
1:36:48
Brad, Personally, I've not seen Muslim people make bring this
1:36:51
argument to the table. I'm not even seeing Daniel
1:36:53
Hacker. Joe when he was debating David
1:36:55
Wood brought this up. The Jeremiah thing brought this
1:36:58
up. This I think is because my focus
1:37:02
has been in getting a very good biblical understanding.
1:37:06
All right, So I I've written these things in my in my in my
1:37:09
commentary, in my exigencies, right on the Quran.
1:37:11
I've written these things, the the fact of the marriage that
1:37:14
Jeremiah is very specific about the scribes writing down with
1:37:17
the lying pen. You can't interpret this as just
1:37:20
an interpretive thing that was happening with the Hebrews at
1:37:23
that point in time. He makes a reference to the
1:37:25
scribes and the and the lying pen very specific.
1:37:29
So context specific Jeremiah, the prophetic words are far more
1:37:33
important than what we might find in Timothy, in the
1:37:37
apostleship of Paul, for example, or in the you know of
1:37:41
even if the words came from the disciple of Jesus Christ, for
1:37:44
example. Daniel, Daniel, Daniel, you're
1:37:46
going off on a very wide tangent and not even, you're not even in
1:37:50
the same baseball field anymore as what Brett asked you.
1:37:53
He asked you a very simple question.
1:37:55
You have even said that the Bible is beautiful and it is in
1:37:58
Scripture and there's a lot of truth.
1:37:59
But here's the problem. The fact of the matter is that
1:38:02
even many Muslims have admitted for whatever reason that yes,
1:38:06
the Bible is now or at one point was God's pure word, right?
1:38:10
And then, but then the, the Quran will also say, but God's
1:38:13
word cannot be altered. But God's word cannot be
1:38:15
changed. And then the Quran claims that
1:38:17
it is the guardian of the Bible. But then that makes the Quran a
1:38:20
very crappy guardian if the Bible has been corrupted.
1:38:23
So I don't understand this is this and and and here's the
1:38:26
thing to go back because you you continue to try to appeal to
1:38:28
Jeremiah 88. Here's here's the problem with
1:38:31
what you're saying. And I don't know if you know
1:38:32
this or not. So I'm going to give you
1:38:34
directly from a debate brief that I had because Muslims have
1:38:36
tried to use this. And there's a reason why you
1:38:38
know how I know that because I have a debate brief talking
1:38:40
about it. So Jeremiah 88IN context reads,
1:38:43
how can you say we are wise and the law of the Lord is with us?
1:38:48
But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.
1:38:52
Now here's the two bullet points that show historically why what
1:38:55
you're saying is false. The scribes here are the
1:39:00
professional legal interpreters of the law in Jeremiah's day,
1:39:04
the same class of leaders that Jesus rebuked centuries later
1:39:07
for nullifying God's Word with their traditions in Mark 713,
1:39:10
which is why I made that correlation earlier to the
1:39:13
Pharisees. This was the same sort of
1:39:15
situation. The lying pen is a metaphor for
1:39:18
twisting the meaning of God's law through false
1:39:21
interpretation, not erasing or rewriting the actual Torah
1:39:25
scrolls. Now if we look at Hebrew Ling
1:39:27
linguistics, the key phrase ET shakur literally means pen of
1:39:31
falsehood, A poetic idiom. The Hebrew does not say, rewrote
1:39:35
or change the text, but speaks of handling the law deceitfully,
1:39:40
just as in Jeremiah 2336 where the burden of the Lord is
1:39:44
twisted by false prophets. But even worse for that, again,
1:39:48
when I asked you for evidence, you provided none because
1:39:51
there's no evidence of textual tampering.
1:39:52
In Jeremiah's day. The Torah existed in stable form
1:39:56
by this period. We know that from the discovery
1:39:59
of Katef He Nam scrolls in the late 7th century BC which quote
1:40:03
numbers chapter 62425 and 26 almost word for word as it is
1:40:08
today in today's Hebrew Bible. Now these silver amulets predate
1:40:13
Jeremiah and prove the textual continuity later on, the Dead
1:40:17
Sea Scrolls from the 3rd century BC, 1st century AD, preserved,
1:40:21
preserved, excuse me, the Torah text that matched the mesoratic
1:40:25
text in substance, showing no evidence of a rewritten or
1:40:28
original to hide guilt. It makes absolutely no sense.
1:40:31
And this goes on and on and on and on.
1:40:32
So what I'm trying to tell you is that you're plain reading of
1:40:36
it is you're reading your your myopic view into it.
1:40:39
But when you look at what the actual Hebrew actually said,
1:40:42
again, the key phrase ET shakur is not talking about that.
1:40:45
It's talking about the IT is talking about the the
1:40:48
professional legal interpreters of the law in Jeremiah's day.
1:40:52
This is not talking about the scribes who wrote the book of
1:40:54
Jeremiah. So I have absolutely no idea
1:40:56
what you're talking about. OK, but to be very specific to
1:41:04
your question, all scriptures are inspired of God.
1:41:09
That's very true. So God is the one who inspires
1:41:11
scriptures, There's no doubt in it.
1:41:13
Right, but but the book of Jeremiah is in the Bible, which
1:41:20
is God's scripture which you admitted to.
1:41:22
Yeah, yeah. OK, Yeah, Let me finish.
1:41:24
Let me finish my response. I I do, I do ask my children to
1:41:27
write the Quran because I want them to write the early Quran
1:41:30
with their own hands. And they make a lot of mistakes,
1:41:33
right? So those are typographical or
1:41:36
unintentional childlike mistakes, which cannot be, which
1:41:40
cannot become a standard scripture for future reference.
1:41:43
All right. But if I insist all my children
1:41:45
have written this text and it is a standard reference, then I
1:41:48
will be in on the wrong, correct?
1:41:50
But now I'm not even making a reference to rewriting or
1:41:54
altering the scriptural physical copies.
1:41:58
I'm not making a reference to that.
1:42:00
What I'm saying is the very first time that the scribes
1:42:03
write down, that's when they're hiding their guilt.
1:42:06
And to be able to debate this subject matter, I don't even
1:42:09
have to be a Muslim. And I don't want to be like a
1:42:12
Muslim debating this subject for reasons that I don't want to
1:42:15
impress upon the Christians that I am somehow an enemy of the
1:42:22
Bible. I'm not I'm a believer in the
1:42:24
Bible, right? So I, I don't even have to be a
1:42:27
Muslim to go and debate the, the, the corruptions in the
1:42:32
earlier in the first, in the very first documentation of the
1:42:35
Bible. I can be an atheist or a secular
1:42:38
scholar who can debate this premise that the original
1:42:41
writings of the Bible are not inspired.
1:42:44
We're baiting of God. So there is words of God, no
1:42:48
doubt. As a believer, I would I would
1:42:50
give that, I would grant it and I would believe in it.
1:42:52
But there's also writings of the scribes, their own
1:42:56
interpretations, their own explanations, which are which
1:42:59
can easily be falsified, for example.
1:43:01
So I don't I don't necessarily have to be a Muslim.
1:43:04
I'm not arguing that the scriptures were rewritten and
1:43:10
therefore it infers in some form of physical evidence, which is
1:43:16
not the case. I I agree with you there is no
1:43:18
physical evidence of corruption of that level.
1:43:21
We do have variations and we have evidence for those.
1:43:24
But what I'm saying is, according to Jeremiah describes
1:43:28
when they wrote it for the first time, they mishandled it.
1:43:31
I need to. I'm sorry, but I.
1:43:32
May I ask Apologetics as well as Daniel a question real quick?
1:43:37
Sure. I I'm pretty sure Brother
1:43:39
Maverick will know where I'm going on this as well.
1:43:41
But being that all of us in here are theists and we believe in
1:43:46
God and we believe God is not an Arthur of confusion.
1:43:50
He's not going to let us live down lies and He's going to
1:43:53
protect His word and His information from your view of
1:43:57
the personality of God. What would He do to a person who
1:44:01
deliberately tries to twist his words?
1:44:07
And necessary to both of us, right?
1:44:09
You can go first if you like apologetics.
1:44:12
I'd like to hear what you guys think on that, and I'd love to
1:44:14
hear brother Maverick, even though I'm pretty sure where he
1:44:17
would go with it. Yeah.
1:44:20
So just to answer your question, God will curse anyone who adds
1:44:25
to the book. I mean, that's pretty much
1:44:27
something that we can see that these the principle of that is
1:44:30
found at the end of Revelation. Like anyone who adds takes away.
1:44:33
I'm not saying that this is a wholesale.
1:44:34
Like. You know, statement, but if the
1:44:36
principle is there that people that add people that change,
1:44:39
they get rebuked, they get cursed, God does not deal well
1:44:41
with him. And I don't think that God would
1:44:43
allow people from the very onset and get go to do that with his
1:44:47
Word, with Revelation. And I want to tell you that I
1:44:51
agree with what your response was.
1:44:53
How about you, Mr. Daniel? Yeah, I would.
1:44:57
I would say what? As Jeremiah himself says, the
1:45:00
wise will be put to shame. They will be dismayed and
1:45:02
trapped since they've rejected the word of God.
1:45:06
What kind of wisdom do they think they have?
1:45:08
So I I completely agree God is going to punish them and God has
1:45:12
punished people in the past. May not be those exact tribes
1:45:16
who but but eventually God will punish them.
1:45:19
And that's why we have hell fire with God Almighty.
1:45:22
It's for a reason and eternal punishments are for a reason.
1:45:25
Those punishments are for severe crimes.
1:45:29
So those punishments are not for unintentional crimes, not for
1:45:33
people who make typographical errors and unintentional errors,
1:45:36
not for that, but intentional crimes who are hiding their
1:45:39
guilt, as we can see in the story of Red Heifer.
1:45:42
So I mean, look, I, I, I mean, I do understand that people that
1:45:50
there is among Christian community, there is not a
1:45:53
consensus that the Bible is the word of God for orbiting like it
1:45:56
is in the Muslim community. For example, Christians do
1:45:59
understand the inerrancy side of the Bible.
1:46:03
But I'm, I'm, I'm also aware that some, that some Christians
1:46:05
believe orbiting word of God Bible to be the word orbiting
1:46:08
word of God. But if you want to like analyze
1:46:12
the biblical writings from even from a secular point of view,
1:46:16
you will certainly find you will certainly find passages which
1:46:24
you will go on to understand, as Jeremiah himself said that the
1:46:27
scribes handled it falsely. So you have to be, if if you go
1:46:31
with the critical approach of the Bible, you would realize
1:46:33
what what prophet Jeremiah is talking about.
1:46:36
You don't even have to come from a Muslim premise to be able to
1:46:38
see those things. Brother Maverick, were you able
1:46:42
to hear my question? Because I'm pretty sure you
1:46:44
would have a showroom. I I didn't.
1:46:46
Can you repeat it? Because people always want to
1:46:48
call me. Literally nobody calls me all
1:46:49
day until I'm in the middle of if I'm at work, I'm going to
1:46:52
call. People are blowing up my phone.
1:46:54
If I'm just driving around, nobody cares to talk to me.
1:46:56
When I'm in the middle of a live stream, everybody wants to talk
1:46:58
to me. When I'm getting dressed, doing
1:46:59
something that's not important, nobody wants to call me.
1:47:01
It's always the same thing. I'm sorry.
1:47:03
Go ahead and go ahead and ask your I'm so sorry guys.
1:47:05
Go ahead and ask your question. It's a short question.
1:47:09
Anyway, the point was as to apologetics and Mr. Daniel and
1:47:14
including the audience out there, what would God do to
1:47:17
someone who deliberately tries to add or take away from the
1:47:21
Scripture from a Muslim point of view as well as a Christian?
1:47:25
And they both agree that God would lay up the smack down on
1:47:29
someone who attempts to do that. And even if they to do
1:47:33
something, God would correct it eventually it would be fixed,
1:47:37
right? Right.
1:47:37
There's no way he's going to let humanity live in a lie, right?
1:47:42
He's a good God. He's not here after confusion.
1:47:45
What do you think? Well, the the Bible what what
1:47:48
God's opinion. I know what the I know that the
1:47:49
the Quranic version of people who try to alter the scripture
1:47:53
is very unforgiving. I know that in the Bible, God's
1:47:57
approach to that is very intolerant, but almost
1:48:00
pragmatic. Like the Bible literally says,
1:48:03
once you have added to Scripture, you have nullified
1:48:06
Scripture, right? Once you step outside of
1:48:08
Scripture, you have nullified scripture.
1:48:10
So essentially what what God is telling you is that you know
1:48:13
enough about Scripture to try to nullify, to step outside of it,
1:48:15
to add your own traditions, to do all the things that you do No
1:48:18
problem, go ahead. But don't sit there with that
1:48:20
look on your face when you're standing on a day of judgement
1:48:23
wondering why you are not spending eternity with me,
1:48:26
right? It is very simple in
1:48:27
Christianity. Very simple.
1:48:29
There is nothing about it that is ambiguous.
1:48:32
Once you have added to Scripture, you have nullified
1:48:35
it, meaning God is basically telling you.
1:48:37
The same way that I tell my kids you're going to do what I say
1:48:40
you're going to do. If you don't want to, that's
1:48:42
fine. You can go live out there in the
1:48:44
world, but you will not be doing what you want to do here.
1:48:46
Very simple. And don't come crying to me when
1:48:49
you don't like what's out there. Heaven and hell is very much the
1:48:52
same. Do not come crying later on when
1:48:55
you thought you knew better than God.
1:48:56
Because we live in a world full of people like that, right on
1:48:58
all sides. Everybody thinks they know more
1:49:00
than God. Everybody thinks love is love.
1:49:02
Everybody tells you to follow your heart.
1:49:03
Everybody tells you that sin is OK.
1:49:04
Everybody tells you that the Bible is an ancient book that
1:49:07
cannot be applied to today's standards.
1:49:09
OK, keep believing that if you want to.
1:49:12
But the Bible is very clear about that.
1:49:13
You nullify my word when you add to it or when you when you step
1:49:16
outside of it. Very clear.
1:49:19
Yeah, I I just need to say something quickly and then this
1:49:23
might sound harsh, but there there was something that you
1:49:25
said and it just made me remember like we need to bring
1:49:28
things this back in. But what you said, I can't get
1:49:30
that boss. You said according to Jeremiah,
1:49:34
according to Jeremiah, your words were that he there wasn't
1:49:38
tutual corruption, but that the original revelation of God was
1:49:41
scribed down wrong in the 1st place.
1:49:43
They hid the original word from God.
1:49:46
He did hiding their guilt and wrote the very first actual
1:49:49
textual version in an incorrect state.
1:49:52
Where does Jeremiah ever tell us that?
1:49:56
You can't say a statement like according to Jeremiah because
1:49:59
you know that like how that follows it creates problems with
1:50:01
the Quran in and of itself. If from the get go the Torah is
1:50:05
wrong, then Jesus can't have come confirming the Torah.
1:50:09
That's that's huge problems with the Quran.
1:50:11
But that'll be that I find it very interesting and, and graph
1:50:14
that is makes a great point. I find it very interesting that
1:50:17
again and, and, and I want you guys to notice this pattern,
1:50:20
ladies and gentlemen, 'cause it happens every single time, every
1:50:22
time we ask for someone. And, and this is not a shot at
1:50:25
brother Daniel. I I love brother Daniel.
1:50:27
I love speaking with him. I love his approach.
1:50:30
I love his his, I love his intent.
1:50:33
But I will tell you that I find it extraordinarily interesting
1:50:37
that we have two scenarios that always end up the same way.
1:50:40
When an atheist or a Muslim wants to question a Christian
1:50:45
about the Bible or about Jesus's divinity or about an occurrence
1:50:50
in the Old Testament or whatever, never once, never will
1:50:55
you hear a Christian saying, well, in the Quran, we don't
1:50:58
need the Quran to defend the Bible.
1:51:00
We don't. We don't ever end up having to
1:51:03
appeal to the Quran to talk about the Bible in its socio
1:51:07
historical or archaeological or manuscriptural context.
1:51:10
We don't have to do that. What I find interesting is that
1:51:13
we are here talking about Sirata 94 and once again look at what
1:51:17
we're talking about, the book of Jeremiah, the Book of Numbers.
1:51:21
Why are we here again, ladies and gentlemen?
1:51:23
Why? If the Quran is the absolute
1:51:25
word of God, are we always circling back to the Bible?
1:51:31
Why? Right it does.
1:51:35
It doesn't make any sense. You don't.
1:51:36
The Bible doesn't need the Quran.
1:51:38
We don't need the Quran. We can, we can talk about
1:51:41
supposed biblical contradictions all day long, and I never have
1:51:46
to bring up the Quran. Never.
1:51:49
Having said that, let's move on to question #5 This is for both
1:51:52
sides. Brother Daniel, I will pose this
1:51:53
question to you first. If Surat 1094 affirms that
1:51:57
Muhammad's revelation should align with the book the people
1:52:02
of the book possessed, this is what the group was called, the
1:52:04
People of the book. So if Sarah 1094 affirms that
1:52:08
Muhammad's revelation should align with the book that the
1:52:11
people of the book possessed, what are the theological
1:52:15
implications if there are contradictions between the Quran
1:52:19
and that book? Now, mind you, I have very
1:52:23
carefully worded this question to make sure that we're not
1:52:26
calling it the Bible or the Tarah or the NGO or the Zabir or
1:52:29
anything. It is a very simple question.
1:52:32
What are the theological implications if there are
1:52:35
contradictions, which we know there are, between the Quran and
1:52:38
that book? Go ahead.
1:52:40
Rather, Daniel. I think I kind of answered this
1:52:44
from the get go today, but because the Quran does not ask
1:52:49
Prophet Muhammad to validate the stories in the Quran with the
1:52:53
Bible, I kind of answered this from the get go.
1:52:56
And I've been emphasizing this. But I do understand that you
1:52:59
framed these questions before coming to the debate before the
1:53:04
stream. So I can understand where this
1:53:06
question is coming. From, yeah, just elaborate a
1:53:08
little bit. I know you did that.
1:53:10
In all fairness, I know I heard you say, but just elaborate
1:53:12
because you did say that it does not pose A logical
1:53:14
contradiction. So I remember what you said,
1:53:16
yeah. So can you, can you elaborate
1:53:18
more on that? Gotcha.
1:53:20
I will just provide a confirmation.
1:53:22
I will steal my new position now.
1:53:23
OK, but if that was the expectation, if the expectation
1:53:27
was the Prophet Muhammad had to validate these stories from the
1:53:30
biblical point of view. And now we see the
1:53:32
contradictions that the Quran does not agree with the Bible on
1:53:35
several different storylines and even theologically with the
1:53:39
Gospel accounts, not necessarily with the Gospels of the synaptic
1:53:44
Gospels, but you can say arguably with Gospel of John and
1:53:49
sometimes with the Gospel of Matthew as well, but especially
1:53:53
with the canonized books of the New Testament from Paul and
1:53:57
other writers. Then you would say, OK, there is
1:54:01
a, there is a theological difference, a Jew from a Jewish
1:54:05
position. There's also differences, but
1:54:08
they're not detrimental differences theologically
1:54:11
speaking. There might be differences with
1:54:14
stories, but they're not so much concerning theology itself
1:54:20
because a lot of the stories of the Old Testament that also are
1:54:23
narrated in the Quran, they're not theological stories, but
1:54:26
there are stories where believers derive lessons of
1:54:30
faith and longing in God and self sacrifice and worship God.
1:54:36
Hold on, I'm. Gonna reign you in here for a
1:54:37
second for a second for a second because you're, you're, you're
1:54:40
going on on a very broad tangent.
1:54:43
Now here, here's the question. It's, it's, it's not, it is not
1:54:46
that deep. What are the theological
1:54:48
implications if there are contradictions between the Quran
1:54:52
and that book that because Surah 1094 affirms that Muhammad's
1:54:57
revelation should align with the book.
1:54:59
OK, and that's, that's what 1094 is saying, right?
1:55:03
So, and I know you continue to try to kind of sidestep it and
1:55:06
say, well, there's nothing saying that Muhammad had to
1:55:09
verify or affirm those books. But here's your problem.
1:55:12
Surah 1094 affirms that Muhammad's revelation should
1:55:15
align with the book the people of the book possessed.
1:55:19
So what are there? There is no question about what
1:55:22
it says. It says it right there.
1:55:23
What are the theological implications if there are
1:55:26
contradictions between the Quran and that book?
1:55:28
That's it. I wait, I, I don't want a
1:55:30
history lesson about all these things and, and the theological
1:55:32
I I want to know what are the implications if those books
1:55:36
contradict one another, For example, because we are making
1:55:40
on our side the assertion that that book is the Bible and we
1:55:43
have history and manuscript evidence to verify that through
1:55:46
any number of manuscripts, right?
1:55:49
Because we are making that assertion, we are telling you
1:55:52
that verses like 1094 affirm that book.
1:55:56
But then later on in the Quran we'll disagree with the
1:55:59
fundamental aspect of Christianity, such as the deity
1:56:02
of Jesus Christ and the crucifixion and his sonship to
1:56:06
God. So what I'm asking you is what
1:56:09
are the theological implications if there are contradictions
1:56:12
between the Quran and the book that it is affirming in 1094?
1:56:18
So I mean, going with your own premise, it's 1094 is not even
1:56:22
talking about Jesus, right? It's talking about Moses and
1:56:24
Noah, correct. If even if I want to, even if I
1:56:27
want to steal my new position, it's still talking about Noah
1:56:30
and Moses and not so much about Jesus at all, for example.
1:56:33
So if you want. To wait, where, where, where do
1:56:38
you, well hold on, where do you, where are you pulling that
1:56:41
interpretation from? It's saying the people of the
1:56:43
book, which would be the Torah according to other passages in
1:56:47
the Quran, the Torah and there's a beer and the Gospel or the
1:56:50
Injeel. So the Injeel right when I'm
1:56:55
talking to. People, when I'm talking to
1:56:58
people, they give me a very specific, you know, context.
1:57:03
They say, OK, these stories. No, no, Daniel, stop.
1:57:07
Listen. Stop, Daniel, stop.
1:57:09
I'm not asking about what happens when you talk to people,
1:57:11
brother. I'm trying to be patient here.
1:57:14
I'm asking you a very simple question because the book we
1:57:17
already have established the you're again.
1:57:19
You are. You're reading your own
1:57:22
understanding into it. This is a very simple question.
1:57:25
You don't get to start out by saying, well, it's only talking
1:57:26
about the Tarah. No, it's not.
1:57:27
It's been made clear that it is talking about the previous
1:57:30
revelations, the Ingeal, the Tarah, the Zabir.
1:57:33
Right now, we can have a later discussion about whether or not
1:57:36
you think the Ingeal was this magical fairy tale that was lost
1:57:39
to time that no one ever got to set eyes on and that only Jesus
1:57:42
Christ had, which is a complete fairy tale because it's been
1:57:44
made clear that Jesus Christ read from the Old Testament when
1:57:47
he gave sermons. But I digress.
1:57:50
That is not saying there's nothing in there saying you are
1:57:53
now changing position again. You're saying that it only
1:57:54
refers to the Tara. No, it doesn't.
1:57:56
I'm asking you simply, simply if those books, and I know why
1:58:01
you're doing that, because if you include the NGO, if you
1:58:04
include the New Testament, then you have to you have to
1:58:07
acknowledge that it is including a book that contradicts it, even
1:58:12
though it affirms that book. My question to you is there's no
1:58:15
question about whether or not the Injeel of the gospel is
1:58:17
included in this book with the people of the book possessed.
1:58:20
My question to you is what are the theological implications if
1:58:23
there are contradictions between the Quran and that book?
1:58:27
You are basically taking my own premise I clarified to you in
1:58:31
the beginning. That includes the gospel, right?
1:58:35
I, I clarified that to you. I said the singular, you said
1:58:38
it's a singular book, but I said it's in a generic sense, It can
1:58:42
include the gospels, the Torah and other books.
1:58:45
Any precisely I said to you, anyone that has a book of God,
1:58:48
the prophets, right. OK, this is what I said.
1:58:51
And my premise has been that this is not about validating
1:58:54
Quranic stories. However, you're I know where
1:58:57
you're coming from and I'm telling you if I want to steal
1:59:00
my new position, this context is not even about Christ.
1:59:04
It's about Moses. So that's what I'm telling you.
1:59:07
But that's not even my premise. My premise is it includes the
1:59:11
gospel, but your own premise that where you come from, it's
1:59:15
actually the story of Moses, not even about Jesus.
1:59:17
So if that makes. Sense.
1:59:19
No, it doesn't, because the question was what are the
1:59:21
theological implications if there are contradictions between
1:59:24
the Quran and that book? I would say that the two
1:59:28
accounts contradict right so then so.
1:59:30
Then what are they? So then, what theological
1:59:33
implications does that have for Islam?
1:59:37
OK, if you for for a Christian who is a polemic of the Islamic
1:59:41
doctrine, he would say the Quran is false, right?
1:59:45
But that's not how a Muslim would see that, because the
1:59:47
Muslim would see that I'm. Asking, I'm asking you from the
1:59:50
Muslim perspective, if if you are agreeing that the people of
1:59:54
the book had the book which is the Bible, then what are the
1:59:56
theological implications for Islam if there are
2:00:00
contradictions between your book that you consider the book of
2:00:03
God and another book that it affirms that disagrees with your
2:00:08
book. And then one of those two, I
2:00:12
mean, to be to be really blunt, one of those two things would be
2:00:15
false. So the same, the same would
2:00:17
apply to 1st century the Jews. The Jews would say, oh, Jesus's
2:00:22
message doctrine doesn't align with the Torah, so he's
2:00:25
necessarily false. So they didn't, they didn't
2:00:27
believe in him and they don't even believe in the Gospels even
2:00:30
to this day, for example. So these are the predicaments
2:00:34
with people of the book who have a position to cite from the get
2:00:38
go. So what I'm asking you guys to
2:00:40
do is forget about Islamic dilemma for a minute and study
2:00:45
the Quran from a textual critical point of view and also
2:00:48
approach the Bible from a textual critical lens.
2:00:51
And then you would be able to see what each of these
2:00:54
messengers were doing. Even Jesus himself, he said I've
2:00:57
come to fulfil. I've not come to abrogate the
2:00:59
prophets, but I've come to fulfil.
2:01:01
But yet he goes on provides it was said you it was said to you
2:01:05
of the old times, but this is what I have to say to you now.
2:01:08
And we see all of these things happening.
2:01:10
And even in the Quran, the Quran also brings this thing to to the
2:01:15
table. It says Jesus said the same
2:01:17
thing to the to the Jewish people think not that I've come
2:01:20
to destroy, but I have to come to confirm the same very words
2:01:23
Mossaddiq Kalima that the Quran uses for itself.
2:01:26
Jesus also uses the same words in the Quran, Mossaddiq Kalima,
2:01:30
which means a confirmation of what has been given thus far.
2:01:35
So I don't necessarily see a contradiction or a theological
2:01:40
development of the Quran because I'm coming from a different
2:01:42
premise. And obviously people polemics of
2:01:45
the Quran, they come from a different premise.
2:01:47
But we have to be more critical and keep our presumptions aside
2:01:55
when we approach the scriptures and critically study them.
2:01:57
And then we can align as to what these scriptures are actually
2:02:01
talking about. And going from your own premise,
2:02:04
if I apply that to Jesus, it becomes Christian dilemma, for
2:02:07
example, if I want to do that, but I understand it's not a
2:02:09
Christian dilemma, it's actually a Jewish dilemma because they
2:02:12
are not updating their faith-based on the future
2:02:16
prophetic dispensations. So.
2:02:21
OK, yeah, I guess that's as close to an answer as we're
2:02:23
going to get. Brother.
2:02:24
Grafted, same question for you. If Surat at 94 affirms that
2:02:28
Muhammad's revelation should align with the book the people
2:02:30
of the book possessed, what are the theological implications if
2:02:34
there are contradictions between the Quran and that book?
2:02:39
Well, from the approach I've stated in my opening statement,
2:02:42
right, I would affirm that at least what is supposed to
2:02:46
actually confirm would be not just the stories of Moses, but
2:02:49
the prior early prophets as I have shown with evidence,
2:02:53
Abraham, Lot, Noah, etcetera, right?
2:02:57
If those contradict with what the people of the book have, the
2:03:00
implications are huge. What it means is not necessary
2:03:03
that the Jews have to update or take faith or abandoned what
2:03:06
they've had because the Quran is quite clear.
2:03:08
When we look at Surah Al Maida chapter 5, verse 68, it says the
2:03:13
people of the book, the Prophet, has to say this to them.
2:03:16
You have nothing to stand on if you do not stand on the Quran,
2:03:19
Gospel by default. The implication is that they
2:03:21
have to abandon the Quran. They have to take it as a
2:03:24
revelation that is not applicable to them, but from
2:03:26
within the Quran's or at least Islam's own paradigm.
2:03:28
If the Quran is to be the final revelation, all of a sudden
2:03:32
that's cancelled because it doesn't finally apply
2:03:34
universally. It's not final for everyone.
2:03:36
There are huge collapsing implications with what happens
2:03:39
here in their contradictions, and obviously I'm not saying
2:03:41
they are. I'm just granting the premise,
2:03:43
if that anyone can argue for any context.
2:03:46
Oh no, it's just Moses. Oh, it's just a thing that
2:03:49
Muhammad has to affirm for himself.
2:03:51
But just following the premise, the grant falls away.
2:03:54
Everything is falsified. May.
2:03:56
I ask one really, really challenging, difficult question
2:04:00
for Mr. Apologetics real quick. That'd be fast.
2:04:03
My question is where is your YouTube channel so I can
2:04:06
subscribe to it? Oh, grafted apologetics is
2:04:10
exactly as his name is here. It's it's adopted apologetics
2:04:13
SA. So there's an SA at the end for
2:04:15
South Africa. Yeah, but, but even if you look,
2:04:18
if you look, if you look, Brett, if you just type grafted
2:04:21
apologetics, he's the first one that pops up.
2:04:23
Like you can type and say, yeah, but it'll pop up right away.
2:04:25
I I don't even know that there's another one.
2:04:28
Well, it's nice meeting you again, Mr. Crafted.
2:04:30
I'm going to find you out there. Hopefully it'll come up just
2:04:34
like a Mr. Brother, Maverick says.
2:04:36
And that's been a great discussion so far.
2:04:38
I'm glad everybody is interceding here.
2:04:41
Brother Brett, do you have any? You've been listening very
2:04:44
quietly. Do you have anything that you
2:04:46
want to say? Do you have any questions you
2:04:48
want to ask for both gentlemen? They have answered, They have
2:04:51
gone through all 5 essentially 10 questions, 1, you know, one
2:04:54
part of for each guy. Do you have anything that you
2:04:57
want to add? Because I know even though
2:04:58
you're not, you are an atheist, become Christian, but you are
2:05:02
very knowledgeable on this subject matter too.
2:05:04
And the way you do it is you like to phrase questions in such
2:05:06
a way that it kind of holds Muslim theology to their own
2:05:11
standards, which I love. So if you want to go ahead and
2:05:13
bring those up right now because now Daniel is here, feel free.
2:05:17
We only have a little bit of time left, less than an hour.
2:05:19
So if you want to go ahead and chime in, you are welcome to.
2:05:25
I guess I could ask one of the classics that I did in the past.
2:05:29
Obviously Muslims respect Jesus Christ and they see him as a
2:05:34
teacher, a prophet and all that. But my curiosity is why, if he
2:05:38
was just simply a prophet or a man who you know is clearly sent
2:05:44
according to the Quran as a messenger and such, why was he?
2:05:48
Why was it necessary for him to be born of a virgin?
2:05:51
And I, I know Daniel, you and I kind of got onto that a little
2:05:55
bit. And you mentioned Adam and Eve,
2:05:58
that Adam didn't require like a biological father.
2:06:01
But the fact that Adam and Eve were created was a miracle in
2:06:05
itself, the way God did it compared to the way we're used
2:06:09
to it being biologically. And I feel the same way about
2:06:12
Jesus, that it was divine. Why did Allah choose to do it
2:06:16
that way? Why not just let him be born
2:06:19
like Muhammad was? Yeah, OK.
2:06:25
I think the I, I did tell you these things, or maybe it was
2:06:31
another different stream that I was talking about these things.
2:06:33
So I'll, I'll kind of reiterate it.
2:06:36
So the story of Jesus really begins with his grandmother.
2:06:42
If you want to call it from the apocryphal works, her name was
2:06:45
Annie or Hannah. You know, it's up to you.
2:06:48
I think it's Hannah. So Annie also called as Annie,
2:06:52
she actually dedicated her child when she was pregnant to the
2:06:56
temple services of Almighty God, not intending that the child
2:06:59
would be a female child. But when she when she birthed
2:07:02
the child, the child was found to be female.
2:07:05
And she was like taken aback. But God said, don't worry,
2:07:11
there's no difference between the male and the female in what
2:07:15
they can do for God. So God embraced the child for
2:07:20
and approved the dedication of the child and took Mary under
2:07:25
the temple services. And that's when Mary was
2:07:27
inducted into the temple services and assigned under the
2:07:30
care of Zechariah the prophet. And then this is where all this
2:07:34
is where it all begins. God says this child is dedicated
2:07:38
to me. So she remains A perpetual
2:07:40
virgin. Unlike some of the accounts that
2:07:43
she got married to Joseph and had children with Joseph, the
2:07:45
Quran is not sort of approving of that.
2:07:48
So she's a perpetual virgin, a child dedicated to God, and God
2:07:53
made her assign by having a virgin birth from her, and made
2:08:01
her son Jesus also a sign for humanity.
2:08:05
So what is a sign for humanity is the creation promise of God.
2:08:12
That God can actually bring out a child from a virgin is a sign
2:08:17
for people. It has scientific impetus.
2:08:21
Like, for example, we also know parthenogenesis that happens in
2:08:25
nature that amounts to virgin birds.
2:08:27
Like, for example, you find this phenomenon in some of the
2:08:30
creatures of God, like in including some of the honey
2:08:32
bees, right? So God brought this out as a
2:08:35
miracle, a miracle child, as a sign for human beings who would
2:08:40
go on to do genetic research, for example, You know what I
2:08:43
mean? So there there is impetus in
2:08:45
there. The one explicitly calls Jesus
2:08:48
and her mom Mary as a sign for people for humanity.
2:08:52
So that's the that's the impetus right there.
2:08:55
And I just wanted to cover one of the questions if I have the
2:08:58
permission that Grafted basically made a remark to at
2:09:03
the end that he brought up this verse from Surah Maida from
2:09:06
chapter. 5. Which again needs to be looked
2:09:09
at in its own context, so. Go ahead.
2:09:13
Oh by the way, I haven't been able to find the YouTube
2:09:16
channel. We might be getting the
2:09:18
different preferences or something like that.
2:09:20
Yeah, because when I search it, I I search it and he pops up
2:09:23
right away. So I just type in grafted
2:09:24
apologetics his his handle is Grafted Apologetics SA.
2:09:29
But yeah, it's a, it's a first channel.
2:09:32
It's in the chat by the way. Yeah.
2:09:33
And I I I put the link. I put the link directly in the
2:09:36
chat for you. All right.
2:09:37
Thank you. No problem.
2:09:39
So the can I? Can I go ahead and answer?
2:09:41
Him. Yes, please.
2:09:43
Yeah. OK.
2:09:44
So the phrase that in Sotomaya chapter 5 is you have no basis
2:09:51
until you establish the Torah. It's not talking about the
2:09:57
stories or theology or other aspects of the religious
2:10:02
doctrine. It's very specific.
2:10:04
It wants the Jewish people to establish justice and fairness
2:10:10
from the doctrine that's found in the law of Moses.
2:10:14
So it very clearly says you have no premise for salvation with
2:10:18
God unless you fulfill, you fulfill the covenant of the
2:10:24
Torah that you do. Your affairs, your juridical
2:10:28
affairs, your legal system should align with the
2:10:32
expectations that God has set for you in the Torah.
2:10:36
So that's what it means. And the same thing applies for
2:10:39
Christians as well. So Christians should have their
2:10:43
legal system in accordance with the teachings of Jesus Christ.
2:10:47
So until you do that, you would not have a premise with God for
2:10:53
salvation and the same would apply for the Muslims.
2:10:57
Until we institute the statutes of God's law as found in the
2:11:01
Quran, we would lose our premise with Almighty God.
2:11:05
So it's a, it's a parallel teaching to all of these
2:11:08
different faiths that God has given the law to, that they are
2:11:10
expected to establish law, the legal code as in a jewelry equal
2:11:14
system and processes. If we don't do this, each of us
2:11:17
will be held accountable before God, the Muslims, the
2:11:20
Christians, and the Jewish people.
2:11:23
I just want to respond to that. I'm more than happy to grant
2:11:27
what you're saying and that this is not a general, you know,
2:11:30
criteria to judge by it and that it's specifically within
2:11:33
doctrine, within instruction. I was answering and bringing it
2:11:36
up within the premise of the question that should there be
2:11:38
contradictions the the the people of the book would be
2:11:42
forced to prioritize the torn and the gospel over the Quran
2:11:44
and rejected if I could do this. No.
2:11:48
The Christians are entitled to abide in their covenant with
2:11:52
Almighty God and they will still have salvation.
2:11:55
They don't have to necessarily become Muslims.
2:11:58
Muslims will still have salvation and Jewish people will
2:12:01
also have salvation. But salvation is detrimental.
2:12:06
If a Muslim asserts or Prophet Muhammad was the son of God or
2:12:09
God himself, then a Muslim salvation would be in peril.
2:12:14
So the same thing would apply to a Christian.
2:12:16
If Christian would assert Jesus was God himself, then his
2:12:19
salvation would be in peril. And if Jewish people had
2:12:22
blasphemed the theology and blasphemed the Spirit, for
2:12:26
example, they would they would also have their salvation in.
2:12:31
Peril so, but certainly this is God doesn't blasphemy the
2:12:35
covenant that the Christians have.
2:12:38
Sorry, can you can you rephrase me?
2:12:40
You said that yes, and you stick to them and you produce, for
2:12:43
example, blasphemy in their government, right?
2:12:45
This is what's going to take the problem for them.
2:12:47
Christians affirming the divinity of Jesus does not
2:12:50
constitute A blasphemy within our covenant.
2:12:54
That's what I understand that side of the story.
2:12:57
I mean, Christians are sort of have this perception that Jesus
2:13:01
was divine, which is again debatable going into the
2:13:04
Gospels. So you don't have to debate this
2:13:06
from the Quran's side of view, Quran's premise or Quran's
2:13:09
perspective. There is a debate within within
2:13:12
the gospel. So there's Unitarian believers
2:13:15
who believed that Jesus will not divine.
2:13:17
We also know the 1st century Christians, there's EB and ISIS
2:13:19
Nazarenes who did not believe that Jesus was divine, neither
2:13:22
had any redemptive value for his resurrection.
2:13:25
So we have all of these different traditions within
2:13:27
Christianity where there's a disagreement.
2:13:29
So that can be a debate separately conducted, not
2:13:33
necessarily from the premise of the Koran.
2:13:35
The only reason I would challenge this is because you've
2:13:37
made the comment on Surah 568, right?
2:13:40
The people of the book have the scripture and the scripture is
2:13:43
called Jesus God. Literally you've got Peter
2:13:45
saying our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
2:13:48
So to to to lump the IBM as in we'd have to assume that
2:13:51
collects the same scriptures as what mainline Christianity has.
2:13:54
I don't want to get into it necessarily for saying what I'm
2:13:57
saying. I've only brought the Surah up
2:14:00
in light of that and that excretion.
2:14:02
It was just useful to the payments that he brought forth.
2:14:04
And I want and I want Daniel, hold on before you go on.
2:14:07
And I, and I want to chime in on something that I noticed very
2:14:10
blatantly, which I, I find ironic and, and, and comical
2:14:14
simultaneously. And brother Grafton and brother
2:14:17
Brett, you guys let me know if you agree.
2:14:19
I find it very interesting that an individual who does not
2:14:23
believe in Jesus as God will appeal to an early church father
2:14:27
who is not a writer of the Bible and say, but they early
2:14:31
Christians, people who came 5060100150 years later, didn't
2:14:35
look at Jesus as God. But when we asked you earlier
2:14:37
about hadiths which were supposedly written to help
2:14:41
understand the writings and the and the figures of the Quran,
2:14:44
you say, well, I don't have any. I don't, I don't look at those
2:14:47
people. I don't care what they say.
2:14:48
I only look at the Quran, right? I only look at the Quran.
2:14:52
So I don't look at the hadiths in reference to the Quran, but I
2:14:56
will look at early church fathers and early church figures
2:14:58
in reference to the Bible. Completely hypocritical.
2:15:02
I have to say. Brother Dan, I'm not saying
2:15:04
brother, you have to hold. On hold on.
2:15:05
I'm not. Saying hold on Brett, go ahead.
2:15:07
Let Brett first. Goodness gracious, go.
2:15:09
Ahead, Brett. No, Yeah, I was trying to stop
2:15:10
him. Brother Dana, I love you, but
2:15:12
goodness gracious how you're getting a discussion here.
2:15:15
I would have to say, and it'll be quick, what's good for the
2:15:18
goose is good for the gander, would be my response.
2:15:21
Brother Maverick. Yeah, that that to me is it's
2:15:23
it's you. You, you cannot say I am a
2:15:26
Muslim who is Quran only and I don't and I have very little
2:15:29
regard for people like Adan Kafir and Ibani boss.
2:15:32
OK, great if that's your stance. But you do not get to hold that
2:15:35
stance in regard to the Quran. And then later on say, but I
2:15:39
will appeal to figures outside of the Bible in reference to
2:15:42
appealing to things about the Bible and especially about
2:15:45
something as important as the deity of Jesus Christ.
2:15:48
So it's, it's very hypocritical, a very hypocritical that a
2:15:52
Muslim would say, I don't look at Hadis because I don't need to
2:15:55
ensure that's fine. But if you don't look at Hadees
2:15:57
in reference to things about the Quran, how can you have the gall
2:16:00
to sit there and look at something that and, and again,
2:16:03
to say nothing of the fact that you didn't actually name any of
2:16:05
these people. You just said there were people
2:16:06
in the 1st century, 2nd century church fathers, whatever that
2:16:09
didn't believe in Jesus God. You didn't name any of them, but
2:16:12
you appeal to them for their belief in what Jesus was God or
2:16:15
not. But God forbid you look at any
2:16:17
of the early Muslim scholars who either knew Muhammad or knew
2:16:20
people who knew Muhammad. Completely hypocritical.
2:16:22
Go ahead. I, I will, I'll yield back.
2:16:25
Yeah, yeah. So what?
2:16:26
Let me clarify this because you've taken a very in a
2:16:31
confedding way. I don't necessarily make that as
2:16:34
a proof or some form of evidence that we have to look at these
2:16:37
early church schisms and, you know, make that as evidence that
2:16:42
Jesus was not God. That's not my approach.
2:16:44
My approach will be very biblical, very gospel based
2:16:47
approach to argue over whether Jesus was divine or not.
2:16:52
So just to clarify, I'm not. I'm applying the same standards
2:16:55
I was I was. I would apply to myself and to
2:16:57
my faith. I'm same.
2:16:59
I'm keeping the standards the same.
2:17:00
I just brought that as a reference, not to make a
2:17:04
evidential proof kind of things, just to clarify if you're
2:17:07
misunderstood. There was no misunderstanding.
2:17:09
It was it's, it's all, all due respect, brother Daniel.
2:17:12
It's irrelevant because the premise is the same.
2:17:15
If you refer to a certain group of people who were not directly
2:17:19
involved with Jesus Christ or the writing or were divinely
2:17:22
inspired writers of the Bible. But then you appeal to these
2:17:25
people and say, but even they said and didn't look at Jesus as
2:17:29
God. But earlier on in the debate,
2:17:32
you were very clear about having very little regard for what Ivan
2:17:36
Kathir said. Again, it is exactly the same
2:17:39
situation. But when it comes to your
2:17:40
purview, to your paradigm, you don't want to look at it like
2:17:43
that, right? You didn't want to look at the
2:17:45
hadith, you don't want to look at the tafsir, but you want us
2:17:48
to look at something similar for Christianity when it goes to
2:17:51
your point. So I understand that it was one
2:17:53
specific instance, but you didn't even understand the
2:17:56
hypocriticalness of what you said and that and that's all I'm
2:17:59
saying. I.
2:18:01
Also, before we get too far ahead, Apologetics never got the
2:18:06
opportunity to respond to my question.
2:18:09
You know, we kind of went so far into all these other
2:18:12
discussions, Apologetics never even got an opportunity.
2:18:15
And I wouldn't be absolutely surprised if he's forgotten
2:18:18
completely what I even asked. Go.
2:18:20
Ahead answer No, please go ahead.
2:18:25
Let me try to let me try to clarify my question a little bit
2:18:28
and why I even bring up this classic thing.
2:18:31
Even if the Bible didn't exist, even if all these church folks
2:18:35
did not exist of the past or modern days, if I were to be a
2:18:40
person who observes the Quran, I would find very quickly that
2:18:44
Jesus seems extremely extraordinary compared to a lot
2:18:49
of the other prophets or figures or whoever is mentioned in the
2:18:52
book. And the fact that not only is he
2:18:55
born of a virgin, but he's able to do these supernatural things,
2:18:59
and then he returns in the end of the book to claim souls.
2:19:04
It is almost as if the Quran is trying to say that there's
2:19:07
something more about Jesus than just being a dude.
2:19:11
What do you think about that? I think that what you're saying,
2:19:14
especially in light of the fact that like if I accept the
2:19:17
payments that the Bible, churches, the churches edition,
2:19:19
the Jews, all of that doesn't exist immediately.
2:19:22
My thinking is that the Messiah is much more than what the
2:19:26
traditional understanding, at least chronically, of the
2:19:29
Messiah. Was that?
2:19:32
Yeah, I mean, there's no, there's no doubt about that,
2:19:34
that Jesus painfully in a very special light.
2:19:36
And even the fact that he comes back to say that the jaw is
2:19:41
pretty, it's pretty convincing of like he's, he's one of the
2:19:46
standards. And I wouldn't necessarily do
2:19:49
any further conclusions. I haven't, I haven't given this
2:19:52
any thought, but I wouldn't do any further conclusions other
2:19:54
than whatever you say that I would actually emphasize
2:19:56
something much, much more important than than the
2:20:00
traditional Islamic understanding.
2:20:03
Well, I appreciate your response and I also appreciate yours,
2:20:06
Daniel. And Daniel, I am, I am very
2:20:09
patient. Lindoor, I understand you told
2:20:11
me quite a few times you're still working on the language
2:20:14
and all that and there's that barrier.
2:20:16
So I appreciate your time as well.
2:20:19
Yeah, I appreciate your services here, Brad.
2:20:24
You're a wonderful person for sure.
2:20:28
Are we, are there anything as far as you know?
2:20:31
What? Let's do this, ladies and
2:20:32
gentlemen, because I think it's been very productive.
2:20:36
Brother Daniel, you are you have been very gracious.
2:20:40
I really do appreciate you. I first of all, I like you.
2:20:42
I told you before that I like you.
2:20:45
Even though, even though I listen, ladies and gentlemen,
2:20:48
here's the thing. I have a lot of friends who are
2:20:50
not Christian, very good friends, OK?
2:20:53
I do not have to be in the presence of someone who shares
2:20:59
every theological point in agreement with me for me to like
2:21:02
you, right? You can disagree with me.
2:21:05
Jesus was kind even to people who didn't listen to him.
2:21:07
So who am I who is so much less to be unkind to anybody?
2:21:12
I like Daniel a lot. I always say to people,
2:21:15
especially at my job, even if I disagree with everything you
2:21:18
say, even if I disagree with your approach on things.
2:21:20
But if I feel like your heart is in the right place, if I feel
2:21:23
like you're doing it from a, from a place of, of good
2:21:26
intention, then I, I respect that all day long.
2:21:29
And I do believe that that's to be true of prophet Daniel.
2:21:31
So thank you, my brother. And because you are here in what
2:21:35
would be looked at as enemy territory, I will go ahead and,
2:21:40
and, and you were gracious enough and you were brave
2:21:42
enough, which is what more than I can say for many, many people
2:21:45
who spend most of their time in my comments section, in my chat
2:21:48
section. You know, dropping their troll
2:21:50
bombs and getting ignored for the most part or just getting
2:21:52
decimated by other Christians in the chat that I don't even pay
2:21:55
attention to anymore because it just has taking a life of its
2:21:57
own. And I guess that in a lot of
2:21:59
ways that's a good thing, right? When you have a chat where most
2:22:02
people aren't even talking to you.
2:22:03
I think somebody said a long time ago, when your chat is
2:22:05
blowing up and literally nobody's talking to you, that's
2:22:07
how you know you've got something special.
2:22:09
So I thank God for that, Brother Daniel.
2:22:12
I'm going to go ahead and give you a 5 minute end statement to
2:22:15
finish clarifying anything you want or just just talk about
2:22:17
anything you want or wrap. It doesn't even have to be about
2:22:19
1094. It'll be 5 minutes and I'm going
2:22:22
to give Grafted 5 minutes and then we're going to wrap it up,
2:22:24
ladies and gentlemen. Yeah, thank you so much, brother
2:22:29
Maverick, you, you're a wonderful person.
2:22:31
And I'm just, I'm just discovering you guys from a
2:22:36
couple of months. My channel is only a couple of
2:22:38
months old and I'm pretending to YouTube after a break.
2:22:41
So it's wonderful to discover this community.
2:22:45
And I've been speaking to some of the Christian brothers from
2:22:47
different channels. And obviously what happens is we
2:22:52
boil down to disagreements pretty quickly and we tend to
2:22:55
disengage. I, I don't necessarily see that
2:22:59
to be a, a, a thing of faith to do.
2:23:05
People of faith should heart should have or inculcate
2:23:13
bravery, truth seeking, courage, engagement, discussion, even
2:23:20
debates. I mean, I don't necessarily see
2:23:21
debates as a thing of win, winning and losing.
2:23:25
I see them as tools and processes where truth can be
2:23:31
elucidated much better and criticism can be taken or
2:23:36
advanced in a better way. So I see these tools as very
2:23:40
important tools for human development and progress and
2:23:43
learning, and even to see compatible positions between
2:23:47
differing groups and between the dissenting groups.
2:23:51
So these tools are very important.
2:23:53
These are modern tools. People back in the day did not
2:23:55
debate, did not engage. People just were buyers and they
2:23:59
went their own ways. But we have also the different
2:24:02
side. Even in ancient times, people
2:24:05
have converted. Nations have converted from
2:24:08
paganism into Christianity and from paganism and Christianity
2:24:11
into Islam. All of those good things have
2:24:13
happened in the past. So it's basically God who has
2:24:16
the power. He veils the power over people
2:24:19
and turns their hearts. As long as people are sincere
2:24:23
and asking guidance from Almighty God, I'm sure that's
2:24:27
how God works with sincere hearts.
2:24:29
So that's why God and Jesus even says be like children, come like
2:24:33
children to me with good hearts, with pure hearts and absorb the
2:24:36
information in on its on its premise, on its face value.
2:24:40
And then then God can reform, bring about a great reformation
2:24:43
in people. I necessarily see these two
2:24:46
faiths as complementary faiths, Christianity and Islam.
2:24:49
Islam doesn't have the premise, but some extremist Muslims,
2:24:53
fanatic Muslims may assert all Christians go to hell.
2:24:55
That's not my premise because that is not the premise of the
2:24:57
Quran. There is salvation for Muslims,
2:24:59
Christians and Jewish people and also non ever having people in
2:25:02
the Koran. So as long as people believed in
2:25:05
one God believed in judgment day and did the right thing, being a
2:25:08
good neighbor, being a good citizen, that's what fetches a
2:25:11
salvation. And in this paradigm we can all
2:25:14
cooperate with each other for the glory of God's Kingdom.
2:25:18
There's challenges that is facing Muslims, Christians and
2:25:21
Jewish people, the Abrahamic faith.
2:25:23
So we should be addressing the challenges that face us as a
2:25:26
common threat rather than shredding each other apart and
2:25:30
destroying each other, which is not a good thing.
2:25:32
But I do recognize that that happens.
2:25:35
But as we modern day believers, I think we have all the all the
2:25:41
talents in the world that we can possess to change this
2:25:44
historical antagonistic narrative into something
2:25:47
fruitful going into the future, collaborating, cooperating, and
2:25:51
working as a common force for the glory of God's Kingdom.
2:25:54
So that's my opinion. Thank you, Thank you, thank you,
2:25:57
Thank you, Brother Grafton, you go and go ahead and begin your
2:26:00
outro statement. Thank you so much for the
2:26:04
opportunity, Daniel. I kind of do feel.
2:26:07
Bad. This does feel like.
2:26:09
It was an imitated degree and I I honestly thought it would be a
2:26:12
really just kind of general conversation.
2:26:14
That being said, I don't know, Rick, I do feel that being kind
2:26:17
of taken back and quote of quite an actual debate format re
2:26:20
energized me and kept me away long enough to go all all the
2:26:24
way. So I think that my closing
2:26:26
statement shouldn't match the energy of a of a debate.
2:26:29
But before I do that, prophet Daniel, I really think that
2:26:31
you've been grateful. I really applaud your attitude.
2:26:34
You've earned this out from me. I've already done it while you
2:26:36
were doing the closing. I welcome you back to YouTube
2:26:39
and I hope that it's extremely productive for you.
2:26:42
Now in closing, examining the closing segment that Brother
2:26:46
Daniel made right, which was that he was taken out of
2:26:50
context. He attempted to re establish the
2:26:52
context which started from verse 57 and 58.
2:26:55
And that it was basically aimed about what was going on with
2:26:59
Mama being effectively the guidance for mankind and how the
2:27:02
stories of Noah and Moses would serve as a comfort.
2:27:06
That despite dejection, God was giving him the divine
2:27:09
communication that he could then go and confirm with the people
2:27:13
of the book. The issues that we have
2:27:15
encountered and we have gone on many tensions still do not
2:27:18
resolve only gate that Suraheen 94 affirms the Bible.
2:27:22
But what do I mean by this? Even if the prophets just knows
2:27:29
this and just know were being mentioned and Muhammad had to go
2:27:32
and confirm that with the people of the book.
2:27:34
It is the book upon which they would base the verification.
2:27:37
If you had to just wholesale come to someone and say, hey,
2:27:39
did God speak to Moses and they're like, yes, that doesn't
2:27:42
immediately like follow that. Oh cool, now I'm a.
2:27:44
Prophet as well, just because. God spoke to Moses.
2:27:47
No, they need a measuring standard.
2:27:50
And when the Quran says these stories, you, you, you
2:27:54
understand just purely. And and if I take the position
2:27:57
of a Quranist, I would follow logically that oh, OK, well,
2:28:01
what he has as revelation has to match what they have.
2:28:05
And so the Surah is obviously affirming that what they have is
2:28:09
what is to be judged against and not the stories that Muhammad
2:28:12
has received in an independent context, not any kind of claim
2:28:16
that the Quran has made about textual corruption that can be
2:28:20
read or imported into scriptures in the Bible such as Jeremiah 8.
2:28:25
You know, this is a inconsistent methodology, sorry, methodology,
2:28:31
especially from the position you have taken.
2:28:33
So I would implore you once again, take the position you've
2:28:36
taken. Once again, simply read in
2:28:37
context and afford the same privileges to the Bible rather
2:28:41
than importing in the Islamic reading and looking for
2:28:44
confirmation in the Bible. If you could do it along the
2:28:46
course of this debate that you could confirm the Quran 279 by
2:28:51
using Jeremiah 88, why can't the people of the book confirm
2:28:54
Muhammad's stories by their own scripture?
2:28:57
So in closing, it doesn't make sense.
2:29:00
It's not consistent. You've demonstrated in principle
2:29:03
what the people of the book would have done to verify
2:29:05
Muhammad and it would not just simply be Oh yeah, God spoke.
2:29:08
It would be to make sure there were no contradiction following
2:29:11
the things that other Daniel said.
2:29:13
The people of the book would be forced to reject moment.
2:29:15
They would be forced to reject the Quran, especially especially
2:29:20
if the Quran it's not telling them that they could affirm it.
2:29:24
But this is the dilemma once again, if it was telling the
2:29:27
action of these stories are valid, then 1094 is simply
2:29:30
affirming the Quran. If it's not affirm, sorry, the
2:29:33
Bible. And if it's not affirm in the
2:29:34
Bible, then Muhammad is literally acting for legacy and
2:29:37
being like, hey, did you speak to Moses school?
2:29:38
I'm a prophet. It doesn't make sense.
2:29:41
We need a we need a stronger standard of verification.
2:29:45
I appreciate your your your approach.
2:29:48
I appreciate your perspective. I appreciate that you are able
2:29:52
to see things from such a wide, diverse range.
2:29:54
But nothing about 279, nothing about what is found in Numbers,
2:29:58
nothing about Jeremiah 88 will certainly disprove that Surati
2:30:02
94 does not affirm the Bible, and that is my case.
2:30:05
Thank you so much. Thank you, Brother Grafton.
2:30:07
Yeah. You know what, brother Brett?
2:30:09
Do you have anything to say before I make closing
2:30:11
statements? I've already told you I love you
2:30:14
and all that, right? There is one thing I'd like from
2:30:19
you, brother Maverick and the others can look at it if they
2:30:21
want. I don't know if you heard but I
2:30:23
recently have created like A blog website and while I was
2:30:28
sitting here quietly and listening to these folks, I
2:30:30
actually created a post and embedded your video.
2:30:33
I was curious what you thought of it, if you let me know if you
2:30:36
like the appearance. Did you did you put the link?
2:30:38
Oh, you didn't got TV? OK, I'm saying Blogspot.
2:30:41
That's nice. I like it a lot.
2:30:43
All right, guys, I'm gonna show the world now because my face is
2:30:46
in it and damn it, I'm going to be egotistical for five seconds.
2:30:49
So here we're going to look at it together.
2:30:51
There's what brother Brett did. So he put it on God,
2:30:53
tvradiosblogspot.com, Christianity and Islam,
2:30:57
navigating the debate with respect and insight.
2:31:00
I like it. I like, I actually love it.
2:31:01
This is very nice. I like it a lot.
2:31:04
Yeah, this is very good, Brett. And you know what I did?
2:31:06
I was going to give you a call later on anyway because my like
2:31:09
last three weeks have been hell. Actually, the last two days I
2:31:12
ended up spending in the hospital.
2:31:13
Oh, and that before anything else, ladies and gentlemen.
2:31:17
So I did want to explain because I'm there.
2:31:20
I'm, it is very likely that there are people in the chat who
2:31:24
read the post, So I wanted to let you guys know what had
2:31:27
happened. Early Wednesday night I was off
2:31:33
going into Thursday morning very early in the morning.
2:31:36
Around 4:30 in the morning, my daughter, my 12 year old
2:31:38
daughter, was sleeping and above her, her bed was a piece of
2:31:43
furniture from IKEA that she'd had for years that had been
2:31:45
mounted to her wall for years. And apparently it had been
2:31:49
overloaded and overfilled to the point where the brackets
2:31:51
weakened and unfortunately it decided that it was going to
2:31:54
give out while she was sleeping. The piece of furniture with
2:31:57
everything included inside probably weighed about 6065 lbs.
2:32:01
Came off the brackets and landed completely on her head.
2:32:04
Split her head open. We had to call for emergency
2:32:07
services and, and, and the ambulance came and got her.
2:32:11
She ended up having a concussion.
2:32:14
They they, but she was fine enough to where they didn't do
2:32:17
any Mris. So they sent her home.
2:32:19
They put staples in her head. The next day she woke up, she
2:32:24
had a very hard time. She couldn't stay conscious.
2:32:26
She could barely follow my finger.
2:32:28
She could barely speak. She was very dizzy.
2:32:31
We had to contact emergency services again.
2:32:34
They, they took her back to the hospital and they ended up
2:32:38
seeing that she needed ACT. They did ACT through the glory
2:32:42
of God. There was no fracture in her
2:32:43
skull. There was no brain bleed.
2:32:45
There was no, you know, nothing like that.
2:32:47
Apparently the concussion, the, the effects of the concussion
2:32:51
didn't really take hold until the next day, which is why she
2:32:55
was so tired and what not. But they did say that she was
2:32:57
not in the clear. Having said all of that, there's
2:33:00
nothing scarier than something being wrong with one of your
2:33:02
children. Unfortunately, my wife and I
2:33:04
have endured that on more than one occasion, but definitely not
2:33:08
more than other people and I do recognize that.
2:33:10
I really want to thank all of you from the bottom of my heart.
2:33:15
Usually posts outside of my normal community posts don't get
2:33:17
a lot of attention and I don't care about that.
2:33:19
It is for whoever wants to see it.
2:33:21
But that post got tons, and I do mean tons of attention to the
2:33:26
point where last I checked, I, and I didn't even check it
2:33:28
recently, but it got hundreds of likes right away.
2:33:31
And, and it's so many. I want to say over 100 comments,
2:33:35
people praying, even Muslims, which I, I appreciate all my
2:33:38
Muslim brothers and sisters who were in there.
2:33:40
One, one Muslim said, I don't agree with anything you present,
2:33:44
but you know, but I will pray for your daughter.
2:33:46
You know, we got dozens of comments, over 600 likes and
2:33:49
everybody just sending their prayer.
2:33:51
And I really do appreciate that because, you know, at the end of
2:33:56
the day, guys, I would do the same for you.
2:33:58
And I really do appreciate that you guys did it for me.
2:34:00
Everybody Christian, even people who were not, you know, who, who
2:34:04
had no faith in God said, you know what?
2:34:05
I, I will, I don't believe in God, but I will send you good
2:34:08
vibes and I will send you my thoughts.
2:34:09
And, and I really do appreciate all that guys, you know, I, I
2:34:12
really do. At the end it showed me that,
2:34:14
you know, even though we are fallen people at the end, people
2:34:17
still understand that, you know, a person's child.
2:34:20
There's nothing more important than that.
2:34:22
I don't care if something God forbid were to happen with, I
2:34:24
don't know if they have children, but with, with Daniel
2:34:27
Hikaku or, or or Libyano, Orthodox Muslim Dean responds,
2:34:31
Ali Dawa, any one of their children.
2:34:33
If, if I found out, God forbid that any one of them was sick or
2:34:36
injured, I would be on my knees praying because I don't give a
2:34:39
damn what they believe in. I don't care if they look at
2:34:43
Muhammad as a prophet. None of that matters.
2:34:45
The only thing that matters is the health of that child.
2:34:47
And I really do appreciate that from everyone of you guys.
2:34:53
Some some maintenance stuff outside of that, all of the
2:34:57
links, ladies and gentlemen, for cross unit dot live, which is
2:35:02
cross unit dot live forward slash call, cross unit dot live
2:35:04
forward slash prey, cross unit dot live forward slash discord.
2:35:08
I have gone through a company called Rebrandly which is why if
2:35:12
you guys noticed in the chat or who are the ones who are in the
2:35:14
panel with me here today at the last second I had to put like a
2:35:17
strange looking link which is very different than the way that
2:35:19
I normally put it. The reason that was was because
2:35:23
like before every live stream, I was testing everything out and I
2:35:26
noticed that no matter what device, what computer, mobile
2:35:28
device, whatever my phone the the call in was not working.
2:35:33
The discord invite was not working, the prayer submission
2:35:35
was not working but the normal links were working.
2:35:39
So I have put in a request with rebrandly because I did purchase
2:35:42
that domain. Cross unit dot live is mine
2:35:44
legally. I purchased it and that's why
2:35:46
I'm able to make the links look cool.
2:35:48
Unfortunately none of them are working.
2:35:50
I I use the website if you guys ever have an issue like that.
2:35:54
I did use a website called, but what is it called here?
2:36:00
What's my dns.net? And what you do is you put your
2:36:04
domain in there and you check through the CNM if it is
2:36:07
working. When I put Chronos unit dot live
2:36:09
in there, there were as a matter of fact, I'll show you guys.
2:36:11
I don't know what's going on, but when I put it in there, as
2:36:15
you guys can see, all these red XS is where it's supposed to be
2:36:19
working up into and including South Africa, funny enough, and,
2:36:22
and, and it's not, and it's not none of them are working
2:36:25
Australia, China, Japan, South Korea, everywhere in the UK and
2:36:32
Europe, the Middle East, it's not working anywhere.
2:36:34
So, and I don't know why it happened to me at the last
2:36:37
second, but as you guys can see everywhere that it says it was
2:36:39
not working. So I had to send a, a, a request
2:36:43
to them and let you guys know. So I will keep working on that
2:36:45
because I did see someone earlier say I need that prayer
2:36:48
submission request. I want to submit a prayer
2:36:50
submission request. Guys, I feel horrible.
2:36:52
It's not something that I did. I promise you, as you guys can
2:36:55
see, they will fix it. They have to because it's a paid
2:36:57
service. I paid for that domain, so it's
2:36:59
mine. They need to make it work.
2:37:01
And we'll get to, you know, everything in God's name.
2:37:03
I know that the enemy doesn't want these conversations to
2:37:05
happen. I know that Lucifer does not
2:37:07
want pleasant conversations between Christians and Muslims
2:37:11
on the Internet. Too bad.
2:37:12
You're not going to stop us. We're going to keep doing what
2:37:14
we're doing. Gentleman on the panel, I love
2:37:17
each and everyone of you. I thank you, guys.
2:37:19
I appreciate you guys. I will be live, God willing.
2:37:22
3:00 PM Central Standard Time. Ladies and gentlemen.
2:37:24
If the links are not fixed by then, I will go ahead and paste
2:37:27
the regular ugly looking video ninja link.
2:37:29
At least you guys will be able to call and until we get it
2:37:31
fixed, we get it fixed. It will be fixed eventually.
2:37:33
If I have to, you know, purchase another domain or whatever, I
2:37:35
will, but I don't want to be that hasty yet.
2:37:38
Does anyone want to say anything before I get off because I got
2:37:40
to get ready for work and be there all night and pretend like
2:37:42
I want to be there. The only thing I've got to say
2:37:45
is if you need any help with your website as you can see if I
2:37:49
got a little bit of skill. Yeah, for sure, yeah.
2:37:51
If, if they don't, if they get back to me and they don't and
2:37:54
they don't give me a satisfactory answer or they
2:37:55
don't fix the DNS issue, which is obviously it's not on my end
2:37:59
because there's nothing that I'm doing that's causing this to not
2:38:02
work all around the world. So it's definitely a them issue.
2:38:05
But I will, I will for sure pick your brain because I was going
2:38:07
to call you later anyway because I know there was some other
2:38:09
stuff you had told me about uploading to an alternative
2:38:12
website and stuff like that. And you were saying that stuff
2:38:14
gets a lot of views and stuff. But I just haven't been able to
2:38:16
concentrate on anything like that.
2:38:17
But I will. I will get with you later on.
2:38:20
Brother Mike Yetner is in here. What's up, Brother Mike?
2:38:23
Hey brother Maverick, I was just listening to your explanation.
2:38:26
I was letting my wife listen to and she wanted to make a comment
2:38:31
to about your daughter's head injury.
2:38:34
OK. So here's my wife.
2:38:36
Her name is Sophia. Hi wife.
2:38:38
Sophia. Oh, he disappeared.
2:38:44
It's OK, he'll be back. He can start talking when he
2:38:46
comes back in because I, I think he was passing it off and
2:38:48
probably pressed the hang up button because it's like right
2:38:51
there at the bottom. Brother Daniel, do you want to
2:38:53
say anything else before we get off, brother?
2:38:55
Hey, God bless you and your family.
2:38:57
And I mean as parents I always worry about my kids, but things
2:39:03
happen and that's just part of life I suppose.
2:39:06
But God bless you and your children and look after your
2:39:09
children as well. Likewise, my brother, and God
2:39:10
bless you and your children as well.
2:39:12
Love you man. Thanks, Grafted.
2:39:14
Go ahead, brother. Sure.
2:39:16
Let's literally say that this coming down, I'm going to drop
2:39:19
down. It is just passed, it is like 20
2:39:22
minutes in the night for me and I also have to get done for
2:39:24
work. But just one thing that I want
2:39:27
to ask, what is your daughter's name?
2:39:29
Because I would like to also just keep him.
2:39:30
Playing Lexi, Lexi. Lexi, Yeah.
2:39:32
Lexi OK, I'll I'll make sure to play.
2:39:34
For her. Do I?
2:39:35
She's on Lexi. Hang on.
2:39:36
Let me see how she's she'll she'll probably show Lexi.
2:39:41
I don't know. She may be here or she may be
2:39:42
talking to her grandma. She's talking to her grandma.
2:39:44
Oh, come here. Everybody wants to know how
2:39:46
you're feeling. No, I'm.
2:39:48
Literally, come on, I'm. Literally fine.
2:39:51
You're fine. Say say I'm fine.
2:39:52
Say thank you for all the prayers.
2:39:54
Thank you for the prayers. How many staples did you get in
2:39:58
your head? 5. 5 But then they had the the
2:40:00
brain scan guys and they saw that there was no brain in
2:40:02
there, so I didn't get it. You.
2:40:04
Actually feel. More like I don't care if
2:40:06
you're. On street we will fight for.
2:40:07
Not everyone. You're not even funny, but
2:40:10
you're. Joking.
2:40:11
Everybody's laughing, so obviously it's funny.
2:40:13
It's a. Matter of like 5 days it became
2:40:16
unfunny like the last two times. What's up, brother Mike?
2:40:21
You're back, man. You're not muted.
2:40:22
You can unmute. I just wanted to show respect.
2:40:25
But yeah, I don't know what happened when I was turning my
2:40:27
phone over. I don't know if I accidentally
2:40:29
hit that. Yeah.
2:40:30
Disconnect button. But as soon as I put in my
2:40:32
earbuds for my tablet, I heard that I got disconnected and I
2:40:35
didn't know that. So my wife was talking to a
2:40:37
blank screen. I was like, oh man.
2:40:39
We called back and I told. You all the story all over
2:40:41
again. So here she is.
2:40:45
All right. Really.
2:40:47
Hi. Hi.
2:40:48
Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too.
2:40:51
I'm just I was telling my husband that I had a traumatic
2:40:54
brain injury back in 2011. Oh, I'm sorry.
2:40:57
No, hopefully, thank God. You know, hopefully nothing near
2:41:01
my case happens to your daughter.
2:41:03
I hope that she gets has a full recovery.
2:41:05
But I was telling him that they didn't tell me this until months
2:41:09
later that the 1st 72 hours are crucial when I they kick me in
2:41:14
for my traumatic brain injury. They just did a CAT scan.
2:41:16
They did not do an MRI. They said I was fine.
2:41:19
They sent me home that first day.
2:41:21
After two days I started having seizures and then by 6 months
2:41:26
they they said I started developing a personality change
2:41:29
and they said that that's very normal.
2:41:31
And they said that had I had an MRI within the 1st 72 to 96
2:41:36
hours that it could have all been avoided.
2:41:40
Wow. But because they didn't, they
2:41:42
said that most of the damage is irreplaceable.
2:41:46
Irreparable. By six months.
2:41:48
Yeah, that's terrible. That's what I was saying.
2:41:51
You know, thank God that she's doing well.
2:41:53
But personally, I would recommend that the doctors do an
2:41:56
MRI, OK? Because, you know, at this point
2:42:00
it's the juncture where anything that's happening in her brain,
2:42:03
it is repairable. But by 6 months it's pretty much
2:42:07
all the synapses have closed off and it's there.
2:42:09
It's beyond repair. Yeah, OK.
2:42:12
And I appreciate that yeah. And I'm very sorry you went
2:42:14
through that. But I'm I'm through the glory of
2:42:16
God. You're still here and I'm I'm
2:42:17
glad that obviously you're aware of the injury and the changes.
2:42:20
And so obviously, you know, you are you know you are lucid and
2:42:23
that's that's what's really important.
2:42:24
But yeah, I appreciate that we are following up my.
2:42:28
Family has told me, you know, they're like, I'm not the way I
2:42:31
used to be, that they tell me stories about who I was before,
2:42:34
but I have no memory of that person.
2:42:36
And it's because of my personality change that that's
2:42:39
when I met Mike and that's when we started dating.
2:42:42
And then because my ex-boyfriend, he couldn't stand
2:42:45
the fact that my personality changed and he broke up with me.
2:42:48
And then a couple of months later, that's when I met Mike,
2:42:51
and that's when we started dating.
2:42:52
God literally desire everything for a reason, right?
2:42:55
Yeah. But yeah, hopefully she has a
2:43:00
full recovery, but I would recommend the MRI.
2:43:03
OK, yeah. And yeah, we were going to do it
2:43:05
anyway because she's she's got follow up anyway.
2:43:07
And then there's some other issues going on too, because we
2:43:10
went to the hospital the first time, they didn't even do ACT,
2:43:12
let alone an MRI. They were just like, Oh yeah,
2:43:14
she's fine. And that's why she ended up back
2:43:16
there. The Yeah, so we were, we already
2:43:18
are unfortunately having to speak to an attorney about that
2:43:20
because and and, and not because we're interested in the money at
2:43:23
all, but because if they're doing that to her, then it's
2:43:27
obviously a common practice and they're doing it to it.
2:43:28
And it was a Children's Hospital too, which is even scarier.
2:43:31
So your. Trials on any type of like
2:43:35
government or basic insurance, they're not going to do the care
2:43:39
that they should. Yeah, and and you know, that's
2:43:41
the thing, we don't, we have really good insurance.
2:43:42
They just didn't do it. You know, I think it was out of
2:43:44
laziness and anything. And that's that to me pisses me
2:43:47
off. But, you know, that's that day.
2:43:48
Yeah. But yeah, 100% correct.
2:43:50
We are on the same page. We're going to do, we're going
2:43:52
to have it done in MRI anyway because she's following up with
2:43:54
we're, we're following up with our family doctor regardless, so
2:43:57
that all that stuff's going to happen.
2:43:58
Yeah. And then we're going to go from
2:44:00
there. But yeah, I, I thank you so
2:44:01
much. We appreciate your testimony.
2:44:03
And I'm very, very, very glad and grateful to God that you are
2:44:06
OK. Yeah.
2:44:07
God be with her. Thank you so much.
2:44:09
God bless you guys. God.
2:44:11
Bless you too, brother. Matt.
2:44:12
All right, Mike. Thank you, brother.
2:44:13
I appreciate it man. No worries.
2:44:16
All right, ladies and gentlemen. Well, that's going to be it.
2:44:17
Gentlemen, take care of yourselves.
2:44:19
Be safe. I'm going to be at work, Brett.
2:44:21
I'll reach out to you in a couple hours, around like 7-8
2:44:23
o'clock, depending on, you know, what time I get out of roll call
2:44:25
or whatever. And I got some other stuff to do
2:44:27
for my other job, but because there's always something.
2:44:29
But yeah, we will. We will talk soon.
2:44:32
As for brother Daniel and brother Grafton.
2:44:34
Grafton, have a great night at work, brother.
2:44:36
Brother Daniel, God bless you and your family.
2:44:38
Same thing to you, Brett. Same thing to you, Grafton.
2:44:39
Love you guys. Appreciate you guys, man.
2:44:41
Be safe, be good, be blessed. I'll see you.
2:44:42
Want to see you. And thank you guys so much for
2:44:44
your preparation and for your participation.
2:44:46
Love you guys man. Thank you.
2:44:49
All right, ladies and gentlemen, but that is it for today.
2:44:52
I have to get ready. There's a couple of things going
2:44:54
on in the background that I also have to get ready for, so I will
2:44:59
go ahead and leave you guys. Interestingly, today viewership
2:45:04
was low, but not for any other reason.
2:45:05
I listen, I don't care. It is what it is.
2:45:07
I'm glad that I get viewership at all, and I'm grateful to the
2:45:11
Lord for it. Tomorrow we'll be live, 3:00 PM
2:45:13
Central Standard Time and we will go from there.
2:45:16
I'm going to go back to 3:00 PM guys.
2:45:17
I'm not going to do 2:00 PM anymore.
2:45:19
I don't think it works as well as the other time.
2:45:21
So we'll we'll go back to 3:00 PM and we're going to stick to
2:45:23
3:00 PM. And even if there are only two
2:45:24
hour streams, so be it. That's what we're going to do.
2:45:26
As always guys, be safe, be good, be blessed.
2:45:29
I will see you guys when I see you and remember that Jesus is
2:45:31
King and the only way to heaven. Have a good one guys.