Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #233 Jason Flom with Mark Denny

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#233 Jason Flom with Mark Denny · Wrongful Conviction

0:02
Speaker 1: At around two am on December twentieth, nineteen eighty seven,
0:06
Speaker 1: three young men, Raphael James, Eddie Vieira, and Mark Smith
0:09
Speaker 1: held up a Burger King in Brooklyn, where they blindfolded
0:12
Speaker 1: and raped a female employee and forced a male employee
0:15
Speaker 1: to participate. They left with three thousand dollars in cash.
0:20
Speaker 1: Both survivors initially described three assailants. Two weeks later, on
0:24
Speaker 1: January eighth, Raphael James and Mark Smith were on their
0:28
Speaker 1: way to a party with Raphael's sixteen year old cousin,
0:31
Speaker 1: Mark Denny, when the two men stopped the car outside
0:34
Speaker 1: of another store that they intended to rob. Mark wanted
0:37
Speaker 1: no part of it. While they argued, police pulled up,
0:41
Speaker 1: searched the car and found a gun. James and Smith
0:45
Speaker 1: were suspects in the December twentieth incident, and Mark Denny
0:48
Speaker 1: became a suspect by association. Mark was bailed out of
0:52
Speaker 1: jail that night and ignored his cousin's request to raise
0:55
Speaker 1: bail buddy, so out of spite, Mark's cousin named him
0:58
Speaker 1: as an assailant as well, even though the victims repeatedly
1:02
Speaker 1: said that there were only three assailants and had identified
1:05
Speaker 1: Bierra Smith and James. The detectives pressured the female victim
1:08
Speaker 1: with a suggestive lineup to change the number of assailants
1:11
Speaker 1: from three to four, and Mark Denny was ultimately convicted.
1:16
Speaker 1: Years later, Raphael James recanted excluding Mark from the crime,
1:21
Speaker 1: but it took an investigation by the Brooklyn cru to
1:24
Speaker 1: reveal the corrupt identification process in which the female survivor
1:28
Speaker 1: was revictimized. Mark Denny was finally freed exactly thirty years
1:34
Speaker 1: from the date of the crime. This is wrongful conviction.
1:53
Speaker 1: Welcome back to wrongful Conviction. I'm your host, Jason Flahm,
1:56
Speaker 1: and today I have a guest who's a really special guy,
1:59
Speaker 1: and he's it's special to me because I had the
2:03
Speaker 1: privilege of meeting I'm actually having lunch with him three
2:06
Speaker 1: days after he was released from prison after thirty years
2:09
Speaker 1: for a crime he didn't commit. So, without further ado,
2:14
Speaker 1: let me welcome and introduce my friend Mark Denny. Mark,
2:17
Speaker 1: Welcome to wrongful Conviction.
2:20
Speaker 2: Thank you Jason Slump for having me so. Mark.
2:23
Speaker 1: This crime happened when you were just sixteen years old.
2:26
Speaker 1: Sixteen right, and the crime itself is like something out
2:30
Speaker 1: of a out of a horror movie. Before we get
2:33
Speaker 1: into the whole situation and how you got wrapped up
2:36
Speaker 1: in it, Mark tell us, what was your life like
2:39
Speaker 1: growing up. Were you born and raised in Brooklyn.
2:42
Speaker 2: No.
2:42
Speaker 3: I was born in Guyana, South America. I was there
2:46
Speaker 3: all the way up until seventy years old. Then I
2:49
Speaker 3: migrated to America. My childhood experience in Guyana was very
2:54
Speaker 3: fun filled, and that's pretty much how I grew up.
2:57
Speaker 3: My grandmother left to migrate to America. She made certain
3:00
Speaker 3: things happen and I was able to be flowing in
3:04
Speaker 3: and I was so happy again. My grandmother was like
3:06
Speaker 3: my everything. When I first came to America, I was
3:09
Speaker 3: living in flat resection of Brooklyn. I was living with
3:12
Speaker 3: my grandmother and after a while, my cousin, Raphael, he
3:17
Speaker 3: decided to come and live with her too, So it
3:20
Speaker 3: was me and him living with my grandmother, just like
3:22
Speaker 3: he wasn't Guyana.
3:23
Speaker 1: And Raphael is a pivotal character in your story, and
3:26
Speaker 1: it becomes clear later that he was into some really
3:30
Speaker 1: bad stuff, dark stuff. But before all that, it seems
3:33
Speaker 1: like you had a pretty happy and saved childhood. And
3:36
Speaker 1: let's bear in mind as we listened to the story
3:40
Speaker 1: that This was the nineteen eighties in Brooklyn, when both
3:43
Speaker 1: crime and police misconduct were out of control, right, And
3:47
Speaker 1: the crime in this case is even by the standards
3:51
Speaker 1: of the day, it's just brutal, disgusting and really really sad.
3:55
Speaker 1: We're talking about an incident that happened on December twentieth,
3:57
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven, around two am. And what happened was
4:01
Speaker 1: two masked men forced their way into a Burger King
4:04
Speaker 1: that was about the close in Brooklyn, right, and two
4:07
Speaker 1: employees were there, one male and one female, were closing
4:11
Speaker 1: up the shop. These guys came in and they forced
4:15
Speaker 1: the male employee to undress and forced him into a storeroom.
4:20
Speaker 1: A third assailant entered the restaurant at some point. They
4:24
Speaker 1: hid blindfolded and forced the eighteen year old female employee
4:29
Speaker 1: to take her clothes off as well, and then all
4:32
Speaker 1: three men raped her in.
4:33
Speaker 2: The back room.
4:35
Speaker 1: It's horrible. The male employee also told police that the
4:39
Speaker 1: men forced him to sexually assault her as well. I'm
4:42
Speaker 1: sorry you have to hear this, but these are the
4:44
Speaker 1: facts of the case. The three men fled with around
4:47
Speaker 1: three thousand dollars in cash receipts from the restaurant safe.
4:50
Speaker 1: I mean, even during this high crime era, this incident
4:55
Speaker 1: stood out. And you find out later that your cousin,
4:59
Speaker 1: Raphael James, along with his friends Mark Smith and Eddie Fierra,
5:02
Speaker 1: that they actually did this to the girl at your
5:05
Speaker 1: local Burger King, who was a girl that you happen
5:08
Speaker 1: to have had a crush on. Right, But for the
5:10
Speaker 1: time being, this incident is just more insanity in a
5:14
Speaker 1: neighborhood that's grown accustomed to insane things happening. So about
5:19
Speaker 1: two weeks passed by, it's January eighth, nineteen eighty eight.
5:22
Speaker 1: Tell us what happened that night.
5:24
Speaker 3: My cousin wanted to go to a certain party, but
5:27
Speaker 3: he wanted to hold my aunt's car. She wouldn't let
5:29
Speaker 3: him hold the car, so he kind of talked me
5:31
Speaker 3: into doing it, under the impression that he'll.
5:33
Speaker 2: Let me come with him.
5:34
Speaker 3: So I went and borrowed my aunt's car, and they
5:36
Speaker 3: directed me to where a party where it was supposed
5:39
Speaker 3: to be in Manhattan. Then we got in front of
5:41
Speaker 3: a store and it was me, my cousin and his friend,
5:46
Speaker 3: and his friend wanted us to pull over and they
5:48
Speaker 3: started talking about it's too early to go to a party.
5:51
Speaker 3: They wanted to do a robbery real quick and automatically.
5:54
Speaker 3: I became afraid for a lot of reasons, and the
5:56
Speaker 3: main reasons was I was a kid, and I never
5:59
Speaker 3: really did anything dangerous, you know, I was resistant. We
6:03
Speaker 3: stood in the car arguing about it. But to make
6:05
Speaker 3: a long story short, nothing happened. No one decided to
6:09
Speaker 3: do anything because I was the I don't know how
6:11
Speaker 3: long we was in front of the store, but I
6:12
Speaker 3: guess the people in the store probably seen us, got
6:15
Speaker 3: suspicious to call the cops. So the cops pulled up
6:18
Speaker 3: and they was waiting to see what happened. And as
6:21
Speaker 3: you was driving off, they pulled us over and I
6:24
Speaker 3: was in the back seat. My cousin was in the
6:26
Speaker 3: front seat with his friends, and out of nowhere, a
6:30
Speaker 3: gun was tossed to me.
6:32
Speaker 1: So, like you described, it was Raphael James driving and
6:35
Speaker 1: Mark Smith in the front pastor seat. And they, of
6:38
Speaker 1: course were suspects in the December twentieth robbery at rape
6:40
Speaker 1: in Brooklyn. You became a suspect as well, just because
6:44
Speaker 1: you happened to be in the car with them, right,
6:47
Speaker 1: But did you even know that they had been involved
6:51
Speaker 1: in this insane crime?
6:53
Speaker 2: No, I did not everything for me.
6:55
Speaker 3: Became aware that this is what they do on a
6:58
Speaker 3: regular because that's how they was trying to convince me
7:00
Speaker 3: it's easy.
7:00
Speaker 2: We did it before.
7:01
Speaker 3: So the whole thing of what my cousin was actually
7:04
Speaker 3: doing for a living, I became aware of all of
7:07
Speaker 3: it at that very moment.
7:09
Speaker 1: So he was some kind of stick up guy. This
7:12
Speaker 1: was like a regular thing for him. But you were
7:14
Speaker 1: just a kid who was in the wrong place at
7:17
Speaker 1: the wrong time.
7:18
Speaker 3: And we all got locked up that night as a
7:20
Speaker 3: result of me being in the car with them. You know,
7:22
Speaker 3: I got built out that night and he didn't. Him
7:24
Speaker 3: and his friend Mark Smith stayed there, and Mark Smith
7:27
Speaker 3: gave me a bunch of jewelry to bring home to
7:30
Speaker 3: pawn for him to help make Bill money. And my cousin,
7:34
Speaker 3: now Raphael James, he wanted me to go to my
7:38
Speaker 3: grandmother house and get some kind of weedy ad stash.
7:41
Speaker 2: And sell it it was supposed to be like a
7:43
Speaker 2: pound and get him Bill money.
7:45
Speaker 3: So now here I get bailed out with all this
7:48
Speaker 3: jewelry and these duty to go do stuff for people
7:51
Speaker 3: that just finished almost got me killed and got me
7:55
Speaker 3: locked up and tricked me into going to a party
7:58
Speaker 3: that they claim wasn't even no party, you know.
8:01
Speaker 2: So I was pissed off, and this is the energy
8:03
Speaker 2: I came out with.
8:04
Speaker 3: So when I went back to my friends the next
8:06
Speaker 3: day and I explained it to them, you know, they
8:08
Speaker 3: was all on my side. It was all again the
8:11
Speaker 3: more they almost got you locked up, you could have
8:12
Speaker 3: been in jail. Now you got to the court. Now
8:14
Speaker 3: you're gonna come out here and go sell drugs and
8:16
Speaker 3: jewely for them. You know, it made me felt like,
8:18
Speaker 3: you know, they just mailed me, felt like it wouldn't
8:21
Speaker 3: have been the right thing to do.
8:22
Speaker 1: And when you didn't do what your cousin and Mark
8:25
Speaker 1: Smith had told you to do, and your cousin found
8:28
Speaker 1: out about it, he was really pissed, and he eventually
8:32
Speaker 1: made a statement sending investigators in your direction.
8:36
Speaker 3: It stained him to such an extent that I guess
8:38
Speaker 3: he always wanted to get me back, because in the
8:39
Speaker 3: statement he said he just wanted to put me in
8:42
Speaker 3: jail so I could see what he was going through.
8:44
Speaker 3: And he was in there and I and he needed
8:46
Speaker 3: my help. But I don't even see how. I don't even.
8:48
Speaker 2: See the logic in that. I don't see that.
8:51
Speaker 1: So while both victims had reported three assailants right three,
8:55
Speaker 1: and the other three guys your cousin and his friends
8:59
Speaker 1: Eddi Vier and Marks Smith had been identified from either
9:01
Speaker 1: photographic or live lineups, that should have been the end
9:04
Speaker 1: of it right there, right But with what your cousin
9:08
Speaker 1: had told detectives, it didn't stop right there. This is
9:11
Speaker 1: when the identification process got corrupted. It's now March of
9:16
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight. The detectives told the female victim who
9:19
Speaker 1: had maintained that there were only three assailants, right three,
9:22
Speaker 1: and she'd already identified the three, but she had been
9:26
Speaker 1: through an unbelievably traumatic experience, and remember she was blindfolded
9:31
Speaker 1: for most of it. So the detectives told her that
9:33
Speaker 1: they had one of her attackers and that his name
9:37
Speaker 1: was Mark Denny, and they put your picture in a
9:39
Speaker 1: photo lineup, and she still didn't pick you. But two
9:44
Speaker 1: days later, you're at your grandmother's house and these cops
9:47
Speaker 1: come and take you back to the precinct where they
9:49
Speaker 1: interrogate you and eventually puts you in a live lineup,
9:51
Speaker 1: and she picks you the person remember whose picture she
9:55
Speaker 1: saw but did not identify. Two days earlier, and now
9:59
Speaker 1: the number of assailings goes from three to four. Now
10:02
Speaker 1: you were the only person who appeared in both the
10:05
Speaker 1: photo and live lineups. And we know that type of
10:08
Speaker 1: suggestive technique plays psychological tricks on anybody, right If you
10:15
Speaker 1: see the same person over and over again, your brain
10:17
Speaker 1: will start to adjust, and people can be easily influenced
10:20
Speaker 1: by this type of manipulation. And this is not just
10:23
Speaker 1: me saying it. It's been proven over and over again
10:26
Speaker 1: in countless studies. So her account was altered to make
10:29
Speaker 1: room for four assailants. Yet the male employee only viewed
10:34
Speaker 1: the live lineup, and of course he did not identify you,
10:37
Speaker 1: and he was the one who was not blindfolded, and
10:40
Speaker 1: he maintained that there were only three assailants. And of
10:43
Speaker 1: course there was exactly zero physical evidence pointing to you
10:47
Speaker 1: because you weren't freaking there, but the other three guys
10:52
Speaker 1: had all left fingerprints and other evidence at the scene.
10:58
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know what the hell these detectives
11:01
Speaker 1: thought they were doing, but it definitely wasn't in the
11:03
Speaker 1: interest of justice, especially not to you, a sixteen year
11:08
Speaker 1: old boy at the time.
11:09
Speaker 2: You know, it took me to the prison.
11:11
Speaker 3: They smacked me around, asking me questions over and over
11:14
Speaker 3: and over that I really didn't have any answer to.
11:16
Speaker 3: That was telling I really didn't know nothing, and they
11:19
Speaker 3: smacked me around. They took me to a lineup room.
11:21
Speaker 3: They put me in there and claimed I got picked out.
11:24
Speaker 3: I didn't know what to do or what to say
11:26
Speaker 3: other than what I was already saying. I was really
11:29
Speaker 3: like an empty vessel at that moment that was just
11:31
Speaker 3: being done with whatever that authorready felt was appropriate to
11:36
Speaker 3: try to resolve.
11:37
Speaker 2: A nasty case, and that became a nightmare.
11:51
Speaker 4: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company,
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Speaker 4: people and communities worldwide.
12:35
Speaker 3: There was like five hundred thousand dollars something like that,
12:39
Speaker 3: and then they finally took me to ryk As Island.
12:43
Speaker 3: You know, I was scary because all the reputations in
12:45
Speaker 3: the neighborhood, you know, it was about people going to
12:47
Speaker 3: right a island and coming out. What I really want
12:50
Speaker 3: to do is just tell anyone that would listen to
12:52
Speaker 3: my story and get them to help me out.
12:54
Speaker 2: But I had no increant of how.
12:56
Speaker 3: Ugly and repulsed people are by the nature of sex
13:00
Speaker 3: defense and yeil. So when I got there, the first
13:03
Speaker 3: level of abuse was from the gods because when you
13:08
Speaker 3: come in, they get your criminal records, so they know
13:10
Speaker 3: what you're coming in for. That crime is esteem is
13:13
Speaker 3: one of the most disgusting in prison sex defense period
13:16
Speaker 3: by the civilians, by the criminals, even the dirt bags,
13:20
Speaker 3: you know, So me having that title automatically it started
13:23
Speaker 3: off for the abuse. You know, I started to intermingle.
13:26
Speaker 3: I felt that if people understood my situation that they
13:30
Speaker 3: would take my side and help me out. But they didn't.
13:34
Speaker 3: You know, I just became a target. The gods beat
13:37
Speaker 3: me down one day on my way back from the messoor.
13:40
Speaker 3: They beat me down to a point where you couldn't
13:41
Speaker 3: even recognize me friends that I had. They they didn't
13:44
Speaker 3: even know it was me walking through the hallway because
13:45
Speaker 3: my face was so battered.
13:47
Speaker 1: Jesus, I don't know. I don't know how people can
13:51
Speaker 1: behave this way. I mean, the Wrikers Dound is a
13:53
Speaker 1: notorious place. It's no place for any human being, much
13:56
Speaker 1: less a kid like you situation, and you certainly didn't
14:02
Speaker 1: deserve any of this shit to happen to you. So
14:04
Speaker 1: how long Mark were you held in Rikers before the trial?
14:08
Speaker 3: I was a Rikazzan a belief for approximately one year.
14:13
Speaker 1: So Eddie Viera and Mark Smith pled guilty and was
14:16
Speaker 1: sent to prison. But you and your cousin Robhail James
14:19
Speaker 1: went to trial together, and at that point you still
14:22
Speaker 1: had no idea that he had made this statement naming
14:25
Speaker 1: you as an assailant, a statement that, of course, he
14:27
Speaker 1: later recanted. So who represented you, oh Man?
14:32
Speaker 2: I had this lawyer named Harry Dusenberry. He was a
14:35
Speaker 2: straight bozoe man. I mean, from the way he.
14:38
Speaker 3: Dressed, his jacket sneezes midway between his wrists and his elbows,
14:43
Speaker 3: his hair looking all crazy, his pants is how waters
14:47
Speaker 3: he just looked like a like a joke.
14:50
Speaker 1: That's ridiculous. Yess, I got of a movie or something,
14:53
Speaker 1: so okay. So you're represented by this guy who can't
14:56
Speaker 1: even find clothes that fit right much. Let's figure out
14:59
Speaker 1: the law. And he was a public defender.
15:02
Speaker 3: No, he was actually a paid attorney. Like I don't
15:05
Speaker 3: know where my parents got this guy from. He didn't
15:08
Speaker 3: really communicate with me at all, and the relationship was
15:11
Speaker 3: not good. They came to a point where he was
15:13
Speaker 3: charged my family seven thousand dollars. My grandmother had to
15:17
Speaker 3: work give the money to my mother to give to him.
15:19
Speaker 3: So he came to a point where when the payment
15:20
Speaker 3: was supposed to be done, he was claiming that he
15:23
Speaker 3: was still short two thousand dollars and if he didn't
15:25
Speaker 3: get it, my case was going to fall apart.
15:27
Speaker 1: Mark, did he visit you in prison? Did he prepare
15:30
Speaker 1: for the case at all?
15:31
Speaker 2: He never came to prison to visit me. I would
15:33
Speaker 2: see him when I go to the courtroom, in the
15:34
Speaker 2: back of the courtroom, in the holding pins.
15:37
Speaker 1: So that trial, your grandmother was called to the stand
15:40
Speaker 1: in your defense, and she testified that you were home
15:43
Speaker 1: with her on the night of the crime. But no
15:45
Speaker 1: one seemed to care about that, you know, it's so
15:48
Speaker 1: easy for them to disparage her as being willing to
15:51
Speaker 1: lie for her grandson. Then, of course, the female victim,
15:55
Speaker 1: who had been pressured into changing her memory right of
15:58
Speaker 1: three assailants, changed it to four. She was called to
16:02
Speaker 1: identify you, but as we know, she was also blindfolded
16:06
Speaker 1: throughout most of this incident and repeatedly stated that she
16:10
Speaker 1: couldn't remember what happened. Meanwhile, the other victim in this
16:14
Speaker 1: case maintained still that there were only three assailants and
16:18
Speaker 1: did not identify you as one of those assailants. So,
16:23
Speaker 1: for a fleeting moment, this kind of looked like it
16:25
Speaker 1: might have gone your way, which would have been the
16:27
Speaker 1: right way, of course. But then this statement from your
16:30
Speaker 1: own cousin and co defendant, Raphael James, came to light
16:34
Speaker 1: and sealed your faith.
16:36
Speaker 3: My co defendant, Raphael James. They say that he made
16:39
Speaker 3: a statement and he was quested, and in his statement
16:43
Speaker 3: they asked him who was all there, and he said
16:46
Speaker 3: Eddie Vieira, He said Mark Smid And he said and
16:50
Speaker 3: my cousin, Mark. You know this is my cousin. This
16:53
Speaker 3: is a blood relative. And we talked about something as
16:56
Speaker 3: serious as a race. So I guess even though it
16:59
Speaker 3: was all those ind that it wasn't me. I think
17:01
Speaker 3: it's because of the ugly and nasty nature the case
17:04
Speaker 3: that made a lot of people just become blinded to
17:07
Speaker 3: the truth and act out in a manner of disregarded truth.
17:10
Speaker 1: Now we know that he later recanted this statement and
17:14
Speaker 1: excluded you from the crime, but at this point you
17:17
Speaker 1: were basically doomed. I mean, it arguably all comes down
17:20
Speaker 1: to him. Had he never told detectives that spiteful lie
17:25
Speaker 1: to begin with, there would have never been any motivation
17:29
Speaker 1: for them to obtain that corrupted ID or to basically
17:34
Speaker 1: coerce the victims to change the number of assailants from
17:38
Speaker 1: three to four. But of course that's not how this went.
17:42
Speaker 3: I was really depressed at that whole thing. I was
17:45
Speaker 3: just waiting for it to be oval, but I wasn't
17:47
Speaker 3: really listening. When the victim pointed at me and actually
17:51
Speaker 3: said that I raped it. That helped me, and it
17:53
Speaker 3: was heartbreaking to me because seeing the victim for the
17:56
Speaker 3: very first time up on the stand. The store that
18:01
Speaker 3: the crime took place in a is a restaurant that
18:03
Speaker 3: as a kid, me and my female cousins would go
18:06
Speaker 3: in that store and play in the playground area.
18:09
Speaker 2: So I saw the.
18:09
Speaker 3: Person before, but I never said anything to the female
18:12
Speaker 3: in my life. But one of the things that I
18:14
Speaker 3: noticed was that she was very beautiful. She had a
18:16
Speaker 3: very very bright aura to herself. And when I actually
18:20
Speaker 3: seen her for the first time in that courtroom up
18:24
Speaker 3: on that stand, that broke my heart because in my
18:28
Speaker 3: head I was thinking to myself about my codefendant, Raphid
18:31
Speaker 3: Jameson right next to me. I'm like, hold up, you
18:33
Speaker 3: know that I know that girl. So they used to
18:35
Speaker 3: tease me about being infatuated. Oh, I mean, I can't
18:38
Speaker 3: really explain it that. It was like he just broke
18:40
Speaker 3: up in me. I started crying because someone that in
18:42
Speaker 3: my childhood timeline, who's past that I crossed, that I
18:45
Speaker 3: was infatuated. It ended up being the very source that's
18:49
Speaker 3: condemning me. And it's because of my cousin.
18:52
Speaker 1: That is a lot man, that is heavy. Right. This
18:55
Speaker 1: whole thing would be hard enough for anybody to process
18:58
Speaker 1: or deal with without all of those other factors mixed in.
19:02
Speaker 2: So there you are.
19:03
Speaker 1: I mean, you had no shot of getting justice in
19:06
Speaker 1: this scenario whatsoever. And the trial of course lasted only
19:10
Speaker 1: two days, right, two days for man's life. So mark
19:14
Speaker 1: the moment that the verdict was read. Do you even
19:17
Speaker 1: remember what that was like?
19:19
Speaker 2: No, man, I cried, I broke down.
19:22
Speaker 3: I was trying to tell the judge for the very
19:24
Speaker 3: last time I wasn't there. I told her that my
19:27
Speaker 3: cousin lied on me. I learned everything about the case
19:30
Speaker 3: and everything as I was going through the process. I
19:33
Speaker 3: didn't even know he made a statement dragging me in,
19:35
Speaker 3: and it devastated me. In no trouble because I had
19:37
Speaker 3: to sit next to this person that throughout the whole
19:41
Speaker 3: trial until that statement came out, he was acting on
19:44
Speaker 3: nice and like he was concerned and telling me, don't worry,
19:47
Speaker 3: I'm going to beat it and blah blah blah blah.
19:49
Speaker 3: Never when the statement come out showing that he pulled
19:52
Speaker 3: me into it, I couldn't believe that.
19:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, that just adds another layer of horror to this
19:58
Speaker 1: whole scenario. Okay, so you're convicted, you're taking away sentenced
20:04
Speaker 1: to nineteen to fifty seven years in prison. These numbers
20:07
Speaker 1: couldn't even have made any sense to you much longer
20:10
Speaker 1: than you had been alive at this point in time, Right,
20:12
Speaker 1: But we know that in these cases when you come
20:14
Speaker 1: up for parole, if you don't admit guilt, the chance
20:16
Speaker 1: of you getting out on a crime like this is
20:18
Speaker 1: virtually nothing. So it's really effectively a life sentence that
20:21
Speaker 1: they gave you at this point in time. Right, So
20:24
Speaker 1: what happens next? And how did you survive this entire ordeal?
20:28
Speaker 1: Which prisons were you in, and how did you find
20:31
Speaker 1: the strength to survive this impossible situation?
20:35
Speaker 3: You know, I was in just about all the maxes
20:37
Speaker 3: in New York State, And in spite of the harsh
20:42
Speaker 3: criticism and stigma that I had to carry for all
20:46
Speaker 3: those years, I will admit that there were prisons where
20:51
Speaker 3: I actually was able to find peace.
20:53
Speaker 2: There was prisoners, you know, who.
20:55
Speaker 3: Had great influence, who was actually able to put the
20:59
Speaker 3: brake on a line out of the fucked up shit
21:01
Speaker 3: I was going through in there because they gave me
21:04
Speaker 3: the benefit of doubt. I met people that encouraged me
21:07
Speaker 3: just based on hearing me speak. It was peaceful moments
21:10
Speaker 3: where I was able to tap into my intellectual abilities.
21:14
Speaker 2: I was able to get education.
21:15
Speaker 3: I got my ged in there, I got my barber
21:17
Speaker 3: certificate in there. Then I spent a lot of time
21:20
Speaker 3: in solitary confinement where no one can get to me,
21:23
Speaker 3: and to sell by yourself. And I embraced those moments
21:26
Speaker 3: where to another person, solitary confinement may be held. To me,
21:30
Speaker 3: it was refused, it was solace, it was peace.
21:34
Speaker 1: I've heard other people talk about that an aunt advice
21:37
Speaker 1: who haven't been through it can imagine any of this.
21:39
Speaker 1: But was there a lowest point while you were in
21:42
Speaker 1: prison where you actually, you know, were under verge of
21:45
Speaker 1: giving up hope?
21:46
Speaker 3: And there came a point where I was about to
21:48
Speaker 3: commit suicide. My mind went through all the things that
21:52
Speaker 3: life has to offer. I actually ruled myself out of
21:56
Speaker 3: the picture. What happened if I was no longer here, Yeah,
21:59
Speaker 3: they would be a little bit emotions, there'll be a
22:01
Speaker 3: little bit of this, they'll be a little bit of that.
22:03
Speaker 3: But just like all the people I knew, after a while,
22:05
Speaker 3: everything just passes on. So somehow I got it all
22:08
Speaker 3: listen to my head and said that, you know, it's
22:10
Speaker 3: a waste of time of me even hanging out because
22:13
Speaker 3: it seemed like I cursed.
22:14
Speaker 2: God out, I ripped the Bible up.
22:16
Speaker 3: You know, I believe that it was no truth for
22:18
Speaker 3: no one, because no one was accepting my truth.
22:20
Speaker 2: It was only making things harder for me.
22:23
Speaker 3: I never thought I was coming up because even though
22:26
Speaker 3: I completed my minimum.
22:28
Speaker 2: And I went to parole, they wanted to know the truth,
22:31
Speaker 2: and my truth for them was alive.
22:33
Speaker 5: So I was never getting out there and they're no better.
22:37
Speaker 5: What good behaviors I didn't tell. Those good behaviors was
22:42
Speaker 5: not getting me up. It was like situation, should I go?
23:06
Speaker 1: So you appeal the conviction in nineteen ninety seven, but
23:09
Speaker 1: it's denied. You filed a petition for a ridd of
23:12
Speaker 1: Havius Corporate seeking a new trial, based in part on
23:15
Speaker 1: a statement from Raphael James that you weren't involved in
23:18
Speaker 1: the crime, but the petition is denied. Eventually, Eddie Vieira,
23:22
Speaker 1: Mark Smith, and your cousin Raphael James, they're all released
23:26
Speaker 1: on parole, but you aren't released because the state, the
23:29
Speaker 1: Parole Board, as usual, they wanted to hear you admit
23:33
Speaker 1: your guilt to this crime you didn't commit. They wanted
23:36
Speaker 1: to hear you basically gravel and you wouldn't do it
23:40
Speaker 1: because you didn't do the crime. So, okay, tell me
23:45
Speaker 1: about how Nina Morrison and the Innocent Project got involved
23:48
Speaker 1: in your case and what happened next.
23:50
Speaker 3: So I would go to low Library and research and
23:52
Speaker 3: I got a bunch of organizations that responded to claims
23:55
Speaker 3: of innocent and.
23:57
Speaker 2: I wrote all of them.
23:58
Speaker 3: A couple of them wrote me back to me. I
23:59
Speaker 3: was in another state. They really didn't have jurisdiction. It
24:02
Speaker 3: was jurisdictional issues, and you know they not I believe
24:06
Speaker 3: it was in two thousand and nine I got a
24:08
Speaker 3: letter from the Innocent prodet of Needa Morrison telling me
24:10
Speaker 3: that they're gonna help me. And I was in solitary
24:14
Speaker 3: confinement when I got that letter.
24:15
Speaker 2: That letter made me feel so good.
24:17
Speaker 3: Because it just pointed out all the different reasons why
24:19
Speaker 3: they believe I was in the right.
24:21
Speaker 2: So I was able to take that letter as a
24:23
Speaker 2: badge of.
24:24
Speaker 3: Honor and show it to people in there security wise, n,
24:27
Speaker 3: civilian wise, n and makewise that even if you don't
24:30
Speaker 3: believe my own words, look there's people who actually believe.
24:34
Speaker 3: You know, those letters from her and that whole turning
24:36
Speaker 3: point right there was great to me.
24:38
Speaker 2: But then it just took so long.
24:40
Speaker 3: I didn't think I was gonna come out anyway, because
24:42
Speaker 3: then she told me that they couldn't find a forensic evidence.
24:45
Speaker 3: That's what they was waiting for for years. And then
24:47
Speaker 3: when they told me that they couldn't find it, it
24:49
Speaker 3: was lost in some laboratory that was destroyed by Hurricane Sandy.
24:53
Speaker 3: I was crushed. I just started going in about how
24:56
Speaker 3: the facts was in the record is right there. What
24:58
Speaker 3: the hell is they looking for? It's right there.
25:00
Speaker 1: So Nina Morrison requests an investigation from the Brooklyn Conviction
25:04
Speaker 1: Review Unit, which they carried out, and the cRIO concluded
25:07
Speaker 1: that the identification process was well, it was just absolute nonsense, right.
25:13
Speaker 1: It had serious problems, taking into account three months had
25:17
Speaker 1: passed between the crime and the lineup, that after being
25:20
Speaker 1: through a traumatic event like that blindfolded, that the victim
25:24
Speaker 1: viewed the lineup after having seen your picture, which is
25:26
Speaker 1: obviously really suggestive. I mean that could contaminate anybody's memory.
25:32
Speaker 1: And of course all three of the actual culprits, your cousin,
25:36
Speaker 1: Edi Vierira and Mark Smith all said that you had
25:40
Speaker 1: nothing to do with it.
25:41
Speaker 3: They put a lot of energy in and they came
25:43
Speaker 3: back with evidence that was consistent with my claim, with
25:47
Speaker 3: what my codafinder Raffle James claim at IVRM Mark Smith, both,
25:50
Speaker 3: according to the investigation, gave up statements that was thorough
25:55
Speaker 3: and exonerated me. Maybe one decided to just tell the
25:59
Speaker 3: truth in the end, and so all these things put together,
26:02
Speaker 3: but all the different errors that already existed paved the
26:05
Speaker 3: way for me to be exonerated.
26:07
Speaker 1: So that brings us to December twentieth, twenty seventeen, which
26:11
Speaker 1: is exactly thirty years after the initial horrendous crime took place.
26:16
Speaker 1: You're joined by Barry Scheck, Nina Morrison, and then also
26:19
Speaker 1: the people leading the CiU at that time, which was
26:22
Speaker 1: Mark Hale and Lisa Pearlman, and King's County District Attorney
26:26
Speaker 1: Eric Gonzalez, who was sitting in the front row, said
26:29
Speaker 1: that your wrongful conviction, and this is a direct quote,
26:33
Speaker 1: happened because little was known back then about memory retention
26:37
Speaker 1: and retrieval and their effect on Iwood's identification end quote.
26:42
Speaker 1: The case was finally dismissed with the consent of prosecutors,
26:46
Speaker 1: along with a conviction for possession of contraband that occurred
26:50
Speaker 1: after you were incarcerated. So then there you were December twentieth,
26:53
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen. You're finally freed. Can you tell me about
26:57
Speaker 1: that day? Like, what the what the hell? How was
27:00
Speaker 1: going through your mind?
27:01
Speaker 3: Prior to me coming out? I had to go from
27:04
Speaker 3: this prison to that prison, and interestingly, one of those
27:08
Speaker 3: trips led me back to Right Azanad where it all started.
27:11
Speaker 3: I thought occurred to me the day that I left
27:14
Speaker 3: Right g a isand after I was convicted and depressed
27:17
Speaker 3: and thought my life was over.
27:18
Speaker 2: When I was.
27:19
Speaker 3: Going over that bridge to leave Right azand to go
27:22
Speaker 3: to Upstate facility, I said to myself as that bus
27:25
Speaker 3: was going over bridge, I'm going to leave my spirit
27:28
Speaker 3: right here and I don't know when, but someday I'll
27:31
Speaker 3: be back for you, because I don't want you to
27:32
Speaker 3: go with me. And the interesting thing is that on
27:35
Speaker 3: the day that I was leaving to go to court
27:37
Speaker 3: to come home, at that very moment, as the bus
27:39
Speaker 3: was on the bridge, I remembered those same words, and
27:42
Speaker 3: it was like it was just this suspended wait for me.
27:46
Speaker 3: I just felt wholesome at that very moment that I
27:48
Speaker 3: received what I left. I went to court, everybody was there.
27:52
Speaker 3: You know, people are seeing the past, family members, you know,
27:54
Speaker 3: loved ones. I was going through all kinds of motions.
27:57
Speaker 3: I got up in front of court and I made
27:59
Speaker 3: a statement, I wish I was the hero to save
28:01
Speaker 3: that girl, because on that day, you know, she really
28:06
Speaker 3: needed one.
28:07
Speaker 2: But I wasn't there. I couldn't help out.
28:10
Speaker 3: I am so afraid now about how easy a person
28:15
Speaker 3: could lie, and the more ugly to lie is, the
28:19
Speaker 3: more people tend to believe is the truth.
28:21
Speaker 2: But sometimes I worry about.
28:22
Speaker 3: The people in jail that didn't get a chance to
28:25
Speaker 3: prove their innocence and dying because this whole new momentum
28:29
Speaker 3: of criminal justice reform is just when in the history
28:34
Speaker 3: hasn't been that way. So then for a whole lot
28:36
Speaker 3: of injustice was always happening. People was going in there
28:39
Speaker 3: and dying and not coming out.
28:41
Speaker 1: Man.
28:41
Speaker 2: I could have been one of those people.
28:43
Speaker 6: Man.
28:43
Speaker 3: So you know, it's scary how destructive a lie could be.
28:47
Speaker 3: The truth is anything, man. I learned how to understand
28:50
Speaker 3: that and respect that.
28:52
Speaker 1: So you're released, but then you're immediately facing something else
28:55
Speaker 1: you had been working for, its false citizenship, but you're
28:58
Speaker 1: conviction to put all that in jeopardy.
29:00
Speaker 3: Right before I got exonerated, I was scheduled to be deported.
29:05
Speaker 3: My green card was revoked and it was up to
29:07
Speaker 3: the parole Board to release me into the hands of Ice,
29:11
Speaker 3: and from there was straight on a plane, straight back
29:14
Speaker 3: to Guyana. But in the course of me regaining my
29:17
Speaker 3: exoneration and ultimately being innocent, and so now I'm going
29:23
Speaker 3: through the process of getting my naturalization, it's just a
29:27
Speaker 3: matter of me maintaining focus, keeping a.
29:29
Speaker 2: Good behavior, you know.
29:31
Speaker 3: And I believe citizenship is important to that because it'll
29:34
Speaker 3: put me in a better position to say and do
29:37
Speaker 3: a lot and maybe even and to intodus that I
29:40
Speaker 3: would otherwise not be able to.
29:42
Speaker 1: Well, I think this country owes you a hell of
29:44
Speaker 1: a lot more than just citizenship. And I'm so glad
29:48
Speaker 1: that the Immigration Justice Clinic was able to prevent your deportation,
29:52
Speaker 1: where Immigration and Customs Enforcement informed your lawyers that because
29:57
Speaker 1: all your criminal convictions were overturned, they wouldn't attempt to
30:00
Speaker 1: detain or deport you, and you were free to seek
30:03
Speaker 1: citizenship and remain here with your family. And you also
30:07
Speaker 1: have a book coming out soon, is that right?
30:10
Speaker 3: The Book of School The Awakening Process, a self empowerment journey.
30:14
Speaker 1: That's beautiful, Mark, And we'll put links to that, you know,
30:17
Speaker 1: where you can purchase the book and all that stuff
30:20
Speaker 1: in our bio. So now here we come to closing arguments,
30:24
Speaker 1: which is my favorite part of the show, and I
30:27
Speaker 1: just want to thank you Mark for coming here, getting
30:31
Speaker 1: onto mic and sharing your story. And so how this
30:33
Speaker 1: works is I'm going to turn my microphone off, but
30:36
Speaker 1: I'm just going to kick back in my chair and
30:39
Speaker 1: just listen. So whatever you feel is left to say,
30:42
Speaker 1: the mic is yours.
30:44
Speaker 6: You know, to have my inside experience, you know, looking
30:47
Speaker 6: back at it now from hindsight and you know, taking
30:50
Speaker 6: into account all the dysfunctions that's going on in the world,
30:56
Speaker 6: it thrives and capitalizes and create you know, livable conditions
31:01
Speaker 6: for other people to benefit from. So now the world
31:03
Speaker 6: is at a point where they need that.
31:05
Speaker 2: In order to benefit. I thought about this while I
31:07
Speaker 2: was in prison.
31:08
Speaker 3: No crime, no cops, no officers, no facility, all the
31:11
Speaker 3: different contracts that's connected to that. It's tons and tons
31:15
Speaker 3: of family that will become impoverished if they was to
31:18
Speaker 3: remove the element of crime, so capitalizing off of it,
31:23
Speaker 3: which is creating prisons. And don't get me wrong, I
31:26
Speaker 3: learned that also prisons will structure. If a person want
31:28
Speaker 3: to change, they can change for the better. But the
31:31
Speaker 3: being of the justice system noted in these these things
31:34
Speaker 3: in order to function properly.
31:35
Speaker 2: I think it's an abuse.
31:36
Speaker 3: Of that justice that the measure by which is treats
31:41
Speaker 3: the people who are caught up in these systems is
31:44
Speaker 3: it's cruel and unusual. They're giving out sentences that's impossible
31:48
Speaker 3: for human It only lives up to seventy five years
31:51
Speaker 3: to complete triple life two hundred years, three hundred years.
31:55
Speaker 3: It shows that the value that people has been totally lost.
31:57
Speaker 3: So justice needs to become more sensitive to that, because
32:00
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, if the justice system
32:02
Speaker 3: is there to correct and fix people and put them
32:04
Speaker 3: back in the position of function in a way that
32:06
Speaker 3: they like, then.
32:08
Speaker 2: They shouldn't be so terminal. They shouldn't be so extreme.
32:10
Speaker 2: They shouldn't establish.
32:11
Speaker 3: Means on which this goal of correction becomes impossible. Bad
32:17
Speaker 3: is always going to be, but the extreme to which
32:21
Speaker 3: bad is punished that Rake did is something that the
32:25
Speaker 3: justice system needs to correct and the reason why I
32:27
Speaker 3: believe ultimately they're fallen short because when it comes to
32:29
Speaker 3: the truth, they are not embracing that truth and it
32:34
Speaker 3: trickles all the way down to the criminals, you know.
32:37
Speaker 3: So the issue is the truth. We have to learn
32:39
Speaker 3: how to overall embrace the significance and the importance of truth,
32:45
Speaker 3: because if we ultimately lose that man and the people
32:47
Speaker 3: at the bottom is no different from the people at
32:49
Speaker 3: the top. And if that's the case, then I don't
32:52
Speaker 3: know what to say about that. Hopefully someone would hear,
32:55
Speaker 3: Hopefully someone would be sensitive enough to acknowledge the truth
32:58
Speaker 3: of these things and make the change it's necessary.
33:01
Speaker 2: That's my hope.
33:08
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to
33:11
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Cliburn,
33:14
Speaker 1: and Kevin Wardis, with research by Lyla Robinson. The music
33:18
Speaker 1: in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated
33:21
Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram
33:24
Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and
33:29
Speaker 1: on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava
33:32
Speaker 1: for Good. On all three platforms. You can also follow
33:35
Speaker 1: me on both TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason Flapp.
33:39
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction is the production of Lava for Good Podcasts
33:41
Speaker 1: and association with Signal Company Number one