Latest / History Dark / Piers Morgan Interviews Killer Women _ The COMPLETE Series 1 Compilation _ _TrueCrimeCentral

Transcript

Piers Morgan Interviews Killer Women _ The COMPLETE Series 1 Compilation _ _TrueCrimeCentral · History Dark

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Imagine a little boy sitting on the stand in open court.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: That's troubling enough.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: But now imagine that the story he has to tell
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: is one that could rob him of his mother forever.
• 0:14
  Speaker 3: How old are you?
• 0:15
  Speaker 4: Seven.
• 0:16
  Speaker 5: Who is this or what is this?
• 0:19
  Speaker 6: My mama.
• 0:20
  Speaker 5: And what is she doing?
• 0:22
  Speaker 6: Killing my sister.
• 0:37
  Speaker 7: I've got to ask you this, because I want to
• 0:39
  Speaker 7: see your reaction. Did you kill Adriana?
• 0:46
  Speaker 4: No, I did not.
• 0:47
  Speaker 7: Did you dunk her in that pool until she drowned?
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: No.
• 0:54
  Speaker 8: There are only two possible penalties that can be imposed
• 0:58
  Speaker 8: for the crime of first-degree felony murder. They are either
• 1:01
  Speaker 8: death or life imprisonment.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: And I just emptied it.
• 1:12
  Speaker 9: The decomposing body of Jimmy Jost was found in Southwest
• 1:16
  Speaker 9: Austin with 10 gunshot wounds.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: I've been a police officer for 25 years. I've been
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: a detective for 17. And no, I have not seen
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: anyone planted to this detail.
• 1:45
  Speaker 7: Do you still love him?
• 1:47
  Speaker 10: Yes.
• 1:49
  Speaker 4: We have a child.
• 1:50
  Speaker 7: And you'll always love Jimmy?
• 1:55
  Speaker 11: Yes.
• 1:55
  Speaker 7: 911.
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: I need an ambulance.
• 2:21
  Speaker 12: What's wrong, ma'am? My daughter fell in the pool.
• 2:23
  Speaker 13: And she's not breathing.
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: Where at, ma'am? Uh, in.
• 2:27
  Speaker 14: And she's not breathing?
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: How old is she?
• 2:29
  Speaker 15: She's seven years old.
• 2:31
  Speaker 10: Oh, God.
• 2:31
  Speaker 6: Just a second, ma'am.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: Her lips are purple.
• 2:34
  Speaker 12: What do I do?
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: Oh.
• 2:42
  Speaker 16: Holmes County Sheriff's deputies are investigating their second tragic water
• 2:46
  Speaker 16: incident involving a child in just three days. This latest
• 2:49
  Speaker 16: happened about three o'clock this afternoon in the community of Estow.
• 2:52
  Speaker 16: Authorities say a seven-year-old girl drowned while playing a swimming pool.
• 2:58
  Speaker 7: I was on my way to meet Amanda Lewis, the
• 3:01
  Speaker 7: mother of AJ and Adriana, who died when she was seven.
• 3:07
  Speaker 7: Amanda has spent the last eight years in prison. Tell me,
• 3:15
  Speaker 7: in your own words, exactly what happened on the day
• 3:20
  Speaker 7: that Adriana died.
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: We had went outside. The kids were playing. And I
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: had to step back inside. And when I stepped back inside,
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: somewhere along the point, she had went and got the wagon.
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: And she had pulled the wagon beside the pool. And
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: she had gotten in the wagon. Her footprint was in
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: the wagon. And somewhere along the line, she fell in
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: with a dishpan.
• 3:46
  Speaker 17: AJ comes in and tells you what?
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: That Adriana was playing in the pool. I thought he
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: meant she was standing beside the pool, splashing in the water.
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: I looked out the back door, and that's when I
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: could barely see her floating in the pool.
• 4:02
  Speaker 17: You run outside?
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 4:04
  Speaker 7: And you get her out of the pool?
• 4:07
  Speaker 6: Mm-hmm.
• 4:08
  Speaker 7: How did she look to you?
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: She was slightly purple.
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: I put her on the ground and tried to get
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: the water to drain out and started doing CPR.
• 4:19
  Speaker 7: Did you realize that she had died before they even
• 4:22
  Speaker 7: got there?
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: No.
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: When they got there and EMT, the fire people, was
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: doing CPR, they had slightly got her back, and they
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: were going to airlift her.
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: To Panama City.
• 4:37
  Speaker 17: When you get to the hospital, what happens?
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: The doctor come in and said that Adriana was gone.
• 4:43
  Speaker 7: What impact did those words have on you?
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: It was like part of me was gone. And it
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: was part that I'd never be able to get back.
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: To me, my kids, they made my world. They made
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: me a stronger person. They made me feel like I
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: was everything that I was supposed to be.
• 5:23
  Speaker 5: Good morning.
• 5:25
  Speaker 18: We're going to present the testimony of a seven-year-old little
• 5:28
  Speaker 18: boy in a big courtroom such as this with people.
• 5:32
  Speaker 18: He's going to come in here, and you're going to
• 5:33
  Speaker 18: be total strangers to him. But he's going to try
• 5:37
  Speaker 18: to do his best when he gets up here. I'm
• 5:39
  Speaker 18: not asking you to believe him just because he comes
• 5:42
  Speaker 18: in here. I'm asking you just to be patient and
• 5:46
  Speaker 18: listen to his testimony and then give it the credibility
• 5:50
  Speaker 18: that you determine that it deserves.
• 5:53
  Speaker 5: You will hear how A.J. saw his mother dunk his
• 5:56
  Speaker 5: sister into the pool.
• 5:59
  Speaker 18: That's what led to the death of Adriana Elaine Hutto.
• 6:07
  Speaker 5: Thank you for your attention.
• 6:20
  Speaker 7: Sheriff, just tell me exactly the scene that you encountered
• 6:23
  Speaker 7: when you got here, where the pool was, where Amanda was,
• 6:27
  Speaker 7: where Adriana was.
• 6:29
  Speaker 19: When I got here, there was fire trucks here, ambulances,
• 6:32
  Speaker 19: and other patrol cars from the sheriff's department.
• 6:35
  Speaker 17: The pool was right out there. You see the pile
• 6:38
  Speaker 17: of wood?
• 6:39
  Speaker 19: It was in front of it coming this way several feet,
• 6:42
  Speaker 19: but it was right out in that area.
• 6:44
  Speaker 17: Now, when I got here, they had Adriana. They was
• 6:48
  Speaker 17: working on her there.
• 6:49
  Speaker 19: Amanda had got back in the house and was in
• 6:51
  Speaker 19: the living room in the floor in the house whenever.
• 6:54
  Speaker 17: I got here.
• 6:54
  Speaker 7: What was your gut feeling about what had happened here,
• 6:59
  Speaker 7: your first feeling?
• 7:01
  Speaker 19: We treated it as an accidental drowning. The little boy, A.J.,
• 7:06
  Speaker 19: was here, and his grandparents had got here, and we
• 7:09
  Speaker 19: let them take A.J. and take care of him after
• 7:13
  Speaker 19: we got the mother in the car and got her gone, Walter.
• 7:16
  Speaker 19: We had left and I had got back to the
• 7:17
  Speaker 19: sheriff's department whenever the grandmother called me and said, Sheriff,
• 7:21
  Speaker 19: I need to bring AJ down there and let him
• 7:23
  Speaker 19: tell you what he stole me.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: Take a seat to sit in.
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: Which one are you going to sit in? You going to.
• 7:41
  Speaker 7: Sit in that one?
• 7:45
  Speaker 4: What you got?
• 7:50
  Speaker 18: I was sitting at that desk right there when I
• 7:52
  Speaker 18: got that phone call, okay? And I remember Dennis Lee saying,
• 7:57
  Speaker 18: I need you to look at this case. And I'm like, Dennis,
• 8:01
  Speaker 18: I'm swamped down here, you know? And he said, no, really,
• 8:04
  Speaker 18: I want you to look. Just look at this interview
• 8:07
  Speaker 18: of this little boy. And they brought it down a
• 8:09
  Speaker 18: couple of days later. Another prosecutor, we were working on
• 8:14
  Speaker 18: another case, and She was in here, and we watched.
• 8:17
  Speaker 5: That, and we were like, wow, you know. Is he
• 8:20
  Speaker 5: telling the truth, you know?
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: Who threw her in the pool?
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: My mama.
• 8:26
  Speaker 7: Mama threw who in the pool? My sister, Adriana.
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: And then what happened when she threw her in the pool?
• 8:35
  Speaker 8: She started holding her face.
• 8:37
  Speaker 7: So Adriana started screaming, so I went, pow, pow, pow.
• 8:41
  Speaker 15: With my gun.
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 8:44
  Speaker 6: So Mama said.
• 8:45
  Speaker 5: Stop it!
• 8:47
  Speaker 6: So I didn't stop it, so she, so AJ screamed, AJ, AJ,
• 8:54
  Speaker 6: call the police!
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: You said your mom held her face.
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: How did she hold her face?
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 9:06
  Speaker 20: An ESTA woman is in the Holmes County Jail tonight
• 9:08
  Speaker 20: charged with killing her own daughter. At least one witness
• 9:12
  Speaker 20: says they saw Lewis pushing the little girl underwater. Lewis
• 9:15
  Speaker 20: has reportedly denied she killed her own child. She is
• 9:18
  Speaker 20: due in court tomorrow morning for a bond hearing.
• 9:22
  Speaker 7: Amanda was a single mom, a care worker on night shifts.
• 9:28
  Speaker 7: She was just 27 when Adriana died.
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: I thought I had a good life.
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: I had a good job, two beautiful children. You know,
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: even though my parents were divorced, I still had a
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: good family life.
• 9:42
  Speaker 7: What was your relationship like with your two kids?
• 9:45
  Speaker 4: I had a good relationship with them.
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: Adriana's, it was a little bit tougher just because she
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: was dealing with what she was dealing with. But I
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: never had a bad relationship with them.
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: They were always happy.
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: We always.
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: did things together, you know, McDonald's.
• 10:03
  Speaker 7: Adriana had apparently ADHD. Was that medically diagnosed?
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 10:10
  Speaker 7: What did that do to her as a young girl?
• 10:12
  Speaker 7: How did it make her behave?
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: Sometimes she was real rambunctious. always wanting to go and
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: do could rarely sit down, rarely watch a movie.
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: But other than that, she was just on the go
• 10:24
  Speaker 4: all the time.
• 10:26
  Speaker 7: You loved her? Of course.
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: Very much. She was just a miniature version of me.
• 10:34
  Speaker 17: In what way?
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: Every way.
• 10:38
  Speaker 7: What do you mean?
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: Physically, she was identical to me. Her demeanors, her mannerisms,
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: down to the way she walked. was just like me.
• 10:49
  Speaker 7: And temperamentally, was she like you? She was quick to.
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: Throw a fit, but she was still a good child.
• 11:03
  Speaker 4: She was still a good old girl.
• 11:04
  Speaker 21: I told you briefly what AJ had said.
• 11:18
  Speaker 19: I don't know how to put this, but he seems
• 11:21
  Speaker 19: to believe that you drowned at her.
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: Well, I don't know why he would think that.
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: I mean, I wasn't even out there. I was in
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: the house.
• 11:30
  Speaker 21: Why would he accuse you of drowning your daughter?
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: He does like to tell stories. I mean, he's got,
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: I don't know if I'd say weird, but he does
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: have a very big imagination.
• 11:43
  Speaker 21: How would you feel about taking a polygraph?
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: I'd be fine with it.
• 11:49
  Speaker 21: You think that might be beneficial?
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: Well, evidently, because I know everybody's.
• 11:55
  Speaker 7: Looking at me.
• 12:04
  Speaker 15: The only way the state could present a homicide case
• 12:08
  Speaker 15: was to rely on the testimony of, in my opinion,
• 12:12
  Speaker 15: an incompetent witness.
• 12:13
  Speaker 17: I've been doing this for a long time. AJ told
• 12:18
  Speaker 17: us the truth. He told us what he'd seen that day.
• 12:23
  Speaker 8: AJ, if you'll come right over here and just have
• 12:25
  Speaker 8: a seat in that chair right over there, okay?
• 12:31
  Speaker 18: I found him to be a credible witness. If I
• 12:35
  Speaker 18: did not believe he was a credible witness, I never
• 12:37
  Speaker 18: would have put him on the stand in the first place.
• 12:39
  Speaker 5: Now, this is the microphone right here, all right?
• 12:44
  Speaker 7: When he walks through the door into the courtroom, And
• 12:50
  Speaker 7: you see him for the first time since all this
• 12:51
  Speaker 7: has happened. What is your reaction?
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: I miss him and I wish that I could pick
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: him up and hug him. I was very upset because
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: I couldn't believe they were doing this because he's only
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: a child.
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: But just disbelief.
• 13:18
  Speaker 7: AJ didn't recognize you. At first.
• 13:21
  Speaker 17: He hadn't seen you for a while.
• 13:23
  Speaker 7: And then he does. And he bursts into tears. And
• 13:27
  Speaker 7: you burst into tears.
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: I wanted to get up and go to him. And
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: I even asked my attorney, just please stop. Just make
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: him stop. But I couldn't.
• 13:49
  Speaker 7: Can you tell me what a lie is?
• 13:51
  Speaker 6: It's not the truth.
• 13:54
  Speaker 7: Can you tell me what the truth is?
• 13:57
  Speaker 6: It's not a lie.
• 14:02
  Speaker 15: If I told you your mother was in the courtroom
• 14:06
  Speaker 15: here today, would that be the truth?
• 14:11
  Speaker 6: No, sir.
• 14:11
  Speaker 7: That would not be the truth.
• 14:13
  Speaker 21: Why is that?
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: Because she's not in the courtroom?
• 14:16
  Speaker 6: No, sir.
• 14:17
  Speaker 7: Where is your mother?
• 14:19
  Speaker 5: Jail. He's in jail.
• 14:24
  Speaker 18: That woman sitting right there between them, have you ever
• 14:31
  Speaker 18: seen her before?
• 14:33
  Speaker 5: Yes, sir. Who is that?
• 14:34
  Speaker 6: My mother.
• 14:37
  Speaker 5: Now you recognize your mother? Yes, sir.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 14:42
  Speaker 22: Hey, Jack.
• 14:42
  Speaker 5: Hey, Jack.
• 14:45
  Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
• 14:46
  Speaker 5: Give me your hand. All right.
• 15:05
  Speaker 7: This case could never have come to court were it
• 15:08
  Speaker 7: not for the testimony of seven-year-old AJ. When the police
• 15:15
  Speaker 7: asked Amanda to take that lie detector test, She passed.
• 15:22
  Speaker 7: In your career, have you had a case that's incensed
• 15:26
  Speaker 7: you quite like this one?
• 15:28
  Speaker 15: I mean, this is probably the worst of the worst.
• 15:34
  Speaker 15: When the factual complexion of the case is so clearly
• 15:39
  Speaker 15: pointing in one direction that indicates that this was a
• 15:45
  Speaker 15: tragic accident.
• 15:47
  Speaker 7: What do you think happened? Just talk me through what
• 15:51
  Speaker 7: you think happened.
• 15:52
  Speaker 15: I believe the children planned on swimming in the pool,
• 15:55
  Speaker 15: but that they had to get the bugs out of
• 15:57
  Speaker 15: the pool. I think Adriana stood in the red wagon
• 16:01
  Speaker 15: next to the pool, was leaning over the pool with
• 16:04
  Speaker 15: the metal pan that was found floating in the pool,
• 16:07
  Speaker 15: and was in the process of scooping up bugs from
• 16:10
  Speaker 15: the pool when she fell headfirst into the pool. causing
• 16:14
  Speaker 15: the water to come over the side of the pool
• 16:16
  Speaker 15: and fill the little red wagon. It was found by
• 16:20
  Speaker 15: the emergency responder, who immediately surmised that this was a
• 16:24
  Speaker 15: case of accidental drowning.
• 16:28
  Speaker 18: This is a case that we believe she maliciously punished
• 16:32
  Speaker 18: her daughter, Adriana, and she just went too far. She
• 16:36
  Speaker 18: was under a lot of stress. She was tired. She
• 16:39
  Speaker 18: had tried various other forms of disciplines, that appeared not
• 16:44
  Speaker 18: to be working, at least to Amanda Lewis. And that
• 16:49
  Speaker 18: is what we think happened.
• 16:51
  Speaker 7: Why are you so sure? Why is there no element
• 16:55
  Speaker 7: of doubt in your mind?
• 16:56
  Speaker 18: As you will recall, the pool was anywhere from 32
• 16:59
  Speaker 18: inches to 35 inches high. Adriana was 47 inches tall.
• 17:04
  Speaker 18: If she had just simply fell into the pool as
• 17:06
  Speaker 18: an accident, all she would have had to do was
• 17:08
  Speaker 18: stand up, as she had done before when she was
• 17:12
  Speaker 18: in that pool and she would not have been drowned.
• 17:24
  Speaker 6: It had a very strong, the whole house smelled of
• 17:27
  Speaker 6: urine and feces.
• 17:30
  Speaker 11: It had a stench of urine.
• 17:32
  Speaker 7: You could hardly stay in that room. I mean, you
• 17:34
  Speaker 7: had to get a breath and go in there and
• 17:36
  Speaker 7: then come right back out. Okay, you may be seated.
• 17:41
  Speaker 5: Amanda Lewis. How do you know her, ma'am?
• 17:44
  Speaker 7: She's my daughter.
• 17:47
  Speaker 5: Adriana Hutta, how did you know her?
• 17:49
  Speaker 7: She was my granddaughter.
• 17:51
  Speaker 5: Did she seem to have, your daughter seemed to have
• 17:54
  Speaker 5: a short.
• 17:54
  Speaker 7: Temper with Adriana?
• 17:56
  Speaker 14: Yes, sir, she did have a short temper with her.
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: At times.
• 18:04
  Speaker 5: How about A.J.? Did she have a short temper with A.J.?
• 18:09
  Speaker 5: Not as much.
• 18:15
  Speaker 7: Some people have said you weren't a good mother, and
• 18:18
  Speaker 7: they've put that down to when the police went in,
• 18:22
  Speaker 7: they smelt urine in the younger kids' room. They didn't
• 18:27
  Speaker 7: see any toys. They felt from what they were picking
• 18:31
  Speaker 7: up from people that you were pretty tough, lost your temper.
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: As far as the smell of urine, she.
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: Wet the bed quite a bit.
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: But there was also a dog in the house that
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: urinated on everything.
• 18:54
  Speaker 7: Did you physically punish the kids, Adriana and AJ?
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: No, for the most part, they got time out.
• 19:01
  Speaker 17: What did that mean?
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: Time out benches or the corner. There was only one
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: time that I really did spank Adriana. And she had
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: little marks on her little backside cheeks.
• 19:17
  Speaker 7: But.
• 19:18
  Speaker 17: Why did you do that?
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: I can't even remember what she did that... Yes, I do.
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: She wrote throughout my car with a permanent marker.
• 19:29
  Speaker 7: What did she write?
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: Loser.
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: And I don't even know where she got the word from.
• 19:35
  Speaker 7: One of your colleagues at the care center remembered you
• 19:40
  Speaker 7: saying you were so annoyed about Adriana's behavior one day.
• 19:45
  Speaker 7: You said, oh, I want to kill her. Now, given what.
• 19:49
  Speaker 17: Happened, people could put two and two together and think.
• 19:53
  Speaker 7: Well, there we are.
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: I did not say I wanted to kill her. I said,
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: oh my goodness, I could have just killed her.
• 20:01
  Speaker 17: About the car?
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: About the car.
• 20:05
  Speaker 21: She came in and she was very upset, very irate.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: And we said, what's wrong, Amanda?
• 20:10
  Speaker 7: She said, I'm just going to kill him. I'm going
• 20:11
  Speaker 7: to kill her. And I was like, don't say that.
• 20:14
  Speaker 23: She was just like at the end of her rope
• 20:16
  Speaker 23: that morning.
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: She just couldn't take it anymore.
• 20:21
  Speaker 17: What did you mean when you said, I could have
• 20:23
  Speaker 17: killed her?
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: That it just frustrated me to the point of being angry.
• 20:40
  Speaker 5: Up, up, right here. I think you're gonna have to
• 20:42
  Speaker 5: kneel down right there. Kneel down. Okay, I wanna show
• 20:47
  Speaker 5: you this photograph here, 1B.
• 20:49
  Speaker 18: Let's just move that one out of the way.
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: 1B.
• 20:54
  Speaker 5: Now, whose red wagon is that?
• 20:56
  Speaker 6: Mine.
• 20:58
  Speaker 5: How did that wagon get there?
• 20:59
  Speaker 6: My mama pulled it all the way from there all
• 21:03
  Speaker 6: the way back to here.
• 21:05
  Speaker 7: Okay, all right.
• 21:08
  Speaker 5: Now, did you draw a picture?
• 21:10
  Speaker 8: Yes, sir.
• 21:12
  Speaker 5: Tell me, A.J., what is this right here? Who is this,
• 21:18
  Speaker 5: or what is this?
• 21:24
  Speaker 6: My mama.
• 21:25
  Speaker 13: Okay.
• 21:27
  Speaker 5: And what is she doing?
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: Killing my sister.
• 21:32
  Speaker 5: How is she doing.
• 21:32
  Speaker 6: That, A.J.? Putting her hand over her face.
• 21:38
  Speaker 5: What is this right here?
• 21:39
  Speaker 6: Her mother's arms.
• 21:41
  Speaker 5: Your mother's arm?
• 21:42
  Speaker 7: Yes, sir.
• 21:42
  Speaker 6: Okay.
• 21:44
  Speaker 5: What does this mean right here? She did.
• 21:51
  Speaker 7: What? She died.
• 21:54
  Speaker 5: She died.
• 21:55
  Speaker 24: Okay.
• 21:56
  Speaker 5: You mean your sister died?
• 21:59
  Speaker 7: Okay.
• 21:59
  Speaker 5: What does too bad, what does that mean?
• 22:04
  Speaker 6: It means it's scary.
• 22:06
  Speaker 5: It was scary?
• 22:19
  Speaker 7: So the jury had to decide, did they believe AJ?
• 22:26
  Speaker 7: Or was this just another tragic case of the most
• 22:29
  Speaker 7: common cause of accidental child death in Florida, drowning? I've
• 22:39
  Speaker 7: got four kids, and when they were all of that age,
• 22:42
  Speaker 7: of AJ's age, I'm not sure how reliable they would
• 22:46
  Speaker 7: have been in recollecting what had happened, given the trauma
• 22:50
  Speaker 7: of what went on just a few yards away. Why
• 22:52
  Speaker 7: are you so confident that A.J. was telling the truth?
• 22:56
  Speaker 19: In the statement A.J. gave us, the first one he
• 22:58
  Speaker 19: gave us, he said that his mom had done that
• 23:00
  Speaker 19: to his sister's face. He told us his sister had
• 23:04
  Speaker 19: got in trouble that morning because she had took blue spray,
• 23:07
  Speaker 19: which he called.
• 23:08
  Speaker 17: Windex later on, sprayed the TV. We got the search warrant.
• 23:12
  Speaker 19: We went in and got the Windex out from under
• 23:14
  Speaker 19: the kitchen sink sent it to the lab, and they
• 23:17
  Speaker 19: put Adriana's fingerprint on there.
• 23:20
  Speaker 17: It was a positive match.
• 23:22
  Speaker 19: He told us that he had seen a man cutting
• 23:24
  Speaker 19: down trees on a tractor. We confirmed that West Florida
• 23:28
  Speaker 19: Electric was out here mowing the right of way for
• 23:30
  Speaker 19: the electric lines that morning. He told us that he'd
• 23:33
  Speaker 19: seen the army men flying over. We contacted Fort Rooker.
• 23:37
  Speaker 19: They confirmed that this was in the flight pattern that
• 23:40
  Speaker 19: day for their helicopters. You know, we confirmed everything he
• 23:44
  Speaker 19: told us, basically. which added legitimacy to his story.
• 23:48
  Speaker 7: But it is also true that as he recounted his
• 23:52
  Speaker 7: story a number of further times, he was inconsistent. I mean,
• 23:57
  Speaker 7: his story did change. It wasn't always completely the same.
• 24:00
  Speaker 19: The consistency of what we were able to confirm stayed
• 24:03
  Speaker 19: the same.
• 24:04
  Speaker 7: But it's such an exceptional circumstance for such a young
• 24:08
  Speaker 7: child to in the end be the pivotal reason why
• 24:11
  Speaker 7: somebody is found guilty of first-degree murder.
• 24:14
  Speaker 19: But you know, he's a young child who didn't know
• 24:17
  Speaker 19: to do anything but to tell us what he saw
• 24:19
  Speaker 19: that day.
• 24:21
  Speaker 7: AJ said that he saw you do it. Is everything
• 24:25
  Speaker 7: that boy said a complete fabrication? He just misremembered everything
• 24:29
  Speaker 7: he'd watched? I mean, pretty extraordinary for a young boy
• 24:35
  Speaker 7: to invent a story about his mom murdering his sister,
• 24:38
  Speaker 7: isn't it?
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: Everything he said was not True, but everything wasn't a lie.
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: I believe what happened, he took a series of events
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: and put them all in one day. She had gotten
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: in trouble for spraying something a week prior, and he
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: put it that it happened that morning. So everything he
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: said was not a lie. I just believe he fabricated
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: a series of events into one day.
• 25:23
  Speaker 7: There was one piece of evidence the prosecution argued proved
• 25:28
  Speaker 7: AJ's version of events.
• 25:31
  Speaker 18: On that day, were you present when an autopsy was
• 25:33
  Speaker 18: performed on Adriana Hutto?
• 25:36
  Speaker 8: Yes, I was.
• 25:36
  Speaker 5: Did you observe any injuries to her body, ma'am?
• 25:40
  Speaker 25: Yes.
• 25:41
  Speaker 5: Tell us what you observed.
• 25:42
  Speaker 26: The most significant were the two on the midline of
• 25:44
  Speaker 26: the forehead.
• 25:46
  Speaker 7: Also noted are two smaller bruises to.
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: The right side of the forehead over here.
• 25:51
  Speaker 26: I placed my hand over the bruises, and as you
• 25:55
  Speaker 26: can see on the side of the cheek here, it
• 25:58
  Speaker 26: lined up perfectly with the side of my left thumb.
• 26:02
  Speaker 7: This would be the index finger where it lined up.
• 26:05
  Speaker 18: If you would, ma'am, just use your left hand as
• 26:07
  Speaker 18: you would on your face, demonstrating to the jury how
• 26:10
  Speaker 18: that would have been.
• 26:14
  Speaker 6: Okay?
• 26:15
  Speaker 5: Thank you, ma'am.
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: No more questions.
• 26:24
  Speaker 18: Can you go to the very beginning where it says
• 26:26
  Speaker 18: resume or whatever?
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: Who was in the pool?
• 26:40
  Speaker 21: Did your mama get in the pool?
• 26:41
  Speaker 11: No.
• 26:43
  Speaker 6: Adrian was just in the pool with Mom. But Adrian
• 26:47
  Speaker 6: was looking like this, and Mom was holding him like this,
• 26:50
  Speaker 6: so she wouldn't scream.
• 26:56
  Speaker 10: Today?
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: Yes. Ms.
• 27:02
  Speaker 8: Lewis, under Florida law, there are only two possible penalties
• 27:06
  Speaker 8: that can be imposed for the crime of first-degree felony murder.
• 27:10
  Speaker 8: They are either death... or life imprisonment. This court adjudges
• 27:15
  Speaker 8: you to be guilty of that crime and sentences you
• 27:19
  Speaker 8: to imprisonment in the Florida Department of Corrections for the
• 27:22
  Speaker 8: remainder of your life.
• 27:26
  Speaker 17: Do you still hope to get out of here?
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: Every day.
• 27:30
  Speaker 7: How do you hope to achieve that?
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: Through the courts, proving that I'm innocent, proving that what
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: they said I did, I didn't do. And I fight
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: every day to prove it. And I'll continue until I do.
• 27:49
  Speaker 17: What do you feel about AJ? He's now 15.
• 27:51
  Speaker 7: You've not seen him for seven, eight years since he
• 27:55
  Speaker 7: was in that courtroom testifying against you.
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 28:01
  Speaker 7: If you had the chance to speak to him, what
• 28:02
  Speaker 7: would you say to him?
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: That I love him. And no matter what, I will
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: always love him. And that in no way do I
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: blame him for what's happened.
• 28:17
  Speaker 7: As AJ waved to his mother that day in court,
• 28:20
  Speaker 7: it would be the last time she would see him.
• 28:29
  Speaker 17: AJ now has a new family. He's been adopted.
• 28:33
  Speaker 7: But in three years' time, he will be old enough
• 28:36
  Speaker 7: to decide for himself whether he wants to see his
• 28:40
  Speaker 7: mother again.
• 29:02
  Speaker 18: Thank you very much and welcome to the 1990 Miss
• 29:04
  Speaker 18: Texas USA pageant and what fun it is to be
• 29:07
  Speaker 18: back here.
• 29:08
  Speaker 23: She surprised him came out of the attic area and
• 29:12
  Speaker 23: she just started shooting and unloaded the Glock in his
• 29:15
  Speaker 23: body I believe ten times.
• 29:19
  Speaker 7: According to the FBI Women who commit murder are three
• 29:24
  Speaker 7: times more likely than men to kill someone they love.
• 29:31
  Speaker 7: In 2004, in southern Texas, a former beauty queen committed
• 29:35
  Speaker 7: a brutal and infamous murder. She shot her millionaire lover
• 29:42
  Speaker 7: ten times.
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: As you're even going in through the garage door, which
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: was open, you could just smell a decomposition odor coming
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: from inside. And it just got stronger and stronger as
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: we continued to enter in.
• 30:09
  Speaker 17: How bad was the scene that you discovered?
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: Well, the actual scene itself was pretty bad. I mean,
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: the victim had been there for enough time to where
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: he was decomposing. And it was confusing when we were
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: looking at it at first as how someone in their
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: own house could be shot in the location, in the manner,
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: like he was an intruder almost, to a point, based
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: on how it looked in his own house.
• 30:35
  Speaker 7: From where you saw all the bullets and where they
• 30:38
  Speaker 7: had flown and where they'd landed, talk me through what
• 30:41
  Speaker 7: you think happened.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: It looks like he was walking down the hall, two
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: bullets went, one went into the door that he was by,
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: and then one went into the wall. and it tore
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: up his right side and into his torso area as well.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: And then you found, we found some shell casings right
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: near him. That's someone who wanted to kill somebody.
• 31:04
  Speaker 17: That someone is Rhonda Glover.
• 31:08
  Speaker 7: She has been in Texas State Prison for the last
• 31:10
  Speaker 7: 10 years.
• 31:11
  Speaker 17: Good to meet you. Not to see Rhonda.
• 31:23
  Speaker 7: Her victim was a wealthy oil man, Jimmy Jost. Rhonda
• 31:29
  Speaker 7: has always claimed it was in self-defence. There's this guy
• 31:34
  Speaker 7: that you had this great, passionate love for, and.
• 31:37
  Speaker 17: He for you.
• 31:37
  Speaker 7: There have been good times and bad. There have been
• 31:41
  Speaker 7: all sorts of stuff that's gone down, and yet there's
• 31:45
  Speaker 7: a moment when you have a gun in your hand
• 31:47
  Speaker 7: and you shoot him dead. And you stand over him,
• 31:50
  Speaker 7: and you empty the magazine.
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: But I never stood over him, and that's a lie, too.
• 31:54
  Speaker 7: There were ten bullets discharged. Do you dispute that?
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 31:57
  Speaker 17: There weren't ten bullets?
• 31:58
  Speaker 25: There were ten discharged, but six were to his elbow,
• 32:01
  Speaker 25: trying to stop him.
• 32:02
  Speaker 7: Okay.
• 32:03
  Speaker 25: Yeah, I was never trying to kill him.
• 32:05
  Speaker 7: You didn't want to kill him?
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: No, no.
• 32:07
  Speaker 17: What did you want to do to him?
• 32:08
  Speaker 25: Well, when he started, see, here we are talking about it,
• 32:11
  Speaker 25: and I can't. But I can't.
• 32:13
  Speaker 17: But here's the thing, Rhonda.
• 32:14
  Speaker 7: I wish I could. But Rhonda, let me explain to
• 32:16
  Speaker 7: you why this is important. People just think of you
• 32:19
  Speaker 7: as this monster murderess who blazed bullets into the man
• 32:25
  Speaker 7: she loved, right? And it was a horrific, cold-blooded, premeditated murder.
• 32:31
  Speaker 7: That's what they think you did. And I'm only asking
• 32:34
  Speaker 7: you one thing about it, is in that moment, how
• 32:38
  Speaker 7: did you feel?
• 32:38
  Speaker 27: I just went into, like, a complete state of shock.
• 32:46
  Speaker 27: Just standing there, just like, oh my God. It was
• 32:50
  Speaker 27: my worst nightmare realized.
• 32:57
  Speaker 7: If you had your time again, Rhonda, in that moment,
• 32:59
  Speaker 7: what would you do? Knowing what happened.
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't know what I could have
• 33:09
  Speaker 4: done differently. I honestly don't know.
• 33:16
  Speaker 7: I don't know.
• 33:21
  Speaker 27: I just know that I'm very lucky to be alive.
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: I do know that I almost.
• 33:27
  Speaker 27: Died that day.
• 33:32
  Speaker 7: Jimmy's body lay undiscovered for four days. Rhonda went on
• 33:39
  Speaker 7: the run, taking their nine-year-old son. but the police caught
• 33:45
  Speaker 7: her 600 miles away in Kansas.
• 33:49
  Speaker 6: These are so tight.
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: They're everything I've walked.
• 34:00
  Speaker 5: Unfortunately, that's a.
• 34:01
  Speaker 23: I know.
• 34:03
  Speaker 5: I just don't know what's going on.
• 34:05
  Speaker 25: I was on vacation with my son.
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: So I'm just... We went to... I was going to
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: go on.
• 34:11
  Speaker 5: An audition for a.
• 34:13
  Speaker 13: a Nashville show.
• 34:14
  Speaker 5: I'm a singer.
• 34:16
  Speaker 25: And so I had my guitar and my piano with me.
• 34:19
  Speaker 5: And I chickened out when I got there. Did you
• 34:22
  Speaker 5: ever get in a car accident?
• 34:25
  Speaker 10: I didn't.
• 34:27
  Speaker 5: Did you go shoot.
• 34:30
  Speaker 7: That day?
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: Did I go shoot at Red's that day?
• 34:31
  Speaker 18: Yes.
• 34:32
  Speaker 22: So you did ever get in a car accident?
• 34:35
  Speaker 24: Yes, I did.
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: When did you learn it?
• 34:42
  Speaker 7: In the years before the murder, Rhonda and Jimmy were
• 34:45
  Speaker 7: part of the oil-rich elite in Texas. They were together,
• 34:51
  Speaker 7: off and on, for over a decade.
• 34:57
  Speaker 21: He was devoted to her.
• 34:59
  Speaker 22: He worshipped her. She controlled him, and he just loved
• 35:02
  Speaker 22: her and worshipped every second of every day.
• 35:07
  Speaker 17: When did you first meet Rhonda, and what was your
• 35:10
  Speaker 17: first impression?
• 35:11
  Speaker 22: I met Rhonda back during the late 70s, early 80s,
• 35:15
  Speaker 22: during the disco days. Everybody was hanging out at the
• 35:18
  Speaker 22: discos and hanging out at the bars, and she was
• 35:20
  Speaker 22: just one of the girls that hung out everywhere and
• 35:23
  Speaker 22: one of the beautiful Texas blondes that you saw out
• 35:26
  Speaker 22: all the time.
• 35:27
  Speaker 17: Was the big catch for women like Rhonda an oil guy?
• 35:31
  Speaker 22: It was a total prize. I mean, if you were
• 35:32
  Speaker 22: to write a story about the art of the deal
• 35:37
  Speaker 22: for women back in those days, they latch on to
• 35:40
  Speaker 22: an oil man They go from an apartment to a
• 35:42
  Speaker 22: million-dollar house in River Oaks.
• 35:52
  Speaker 28: I think that she saw a different world that she
• 35:56
  Speaker 28: wanted access to. She grew up with cowboys, rodeo, and
• 36:02
  Speaker 28: Jimmy came from a different world, a world of more sophistication,
• 36:06
  Speaker 28: and I think that's what she was looking for.
• 36:12
  Speaker 7: Jimmy first set eyes on Rhonda while watching the 1990
• 36:17
  Speaker 7: Miss Texas beauty pageant on television.
• 36:22
  Speaker 25: When he saw me, he said, I'm going to marry
• 36:25
  Speaker 25: that girl. And he became determined to meet me and
• 36:30
  Speaker 25: to seek me out.
• 36:31
  Speaker 7: People thought you made a great couple when you first
• 36:33
  Speaker 7: got together. Is that how you felt in the end?
• 36:35
  Speaker 7: I mean, did you find him attractive?
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: Yes, I did. Handsome?
• 36:40
  Speaker 25: Yeah, and he was funny. He was very funny, and
• 36:42
  Speaker 25: he could cook. He introduced me to, you know, a
• 36:45
  Speaker 25: lifestyle that I.
• 36:48
  Speaker 25: I had never experienced before with having a lot of
• 36:51
  Speaker 25: people over and big parties and.
• 36:54
  Speaker 17: You loved him?
• 36:56
  Speaker 11: Yes.
• 36:57
  Speaker 18: Yeah.
• 36:57
  Speaker 17: Like proper passionate love?
• 37:00
  Speaker 10: Um.
• 37:02
  Speaker 17: You said deeply that?
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: Yes, I did, but.
• 37:07
  Speaker 25: I'm trying to explain to you, Piers, that it didn't
• 37:10
  Speaker 25: last very long.
• 37:10
  Speaker 17: I understand that.
• 37:11
  Speaker 7: But I want you just to try and remember the
• 37:15
  Speaker 7: good times. There must have been between you a real draw,
• 37:19
  Speaker 7: a real love.
• 37:21
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 37:22
  Speaker 25: And then when we had our son, that kept me
• 37:25
  Speaker 25: hoping that we could have a normal life.
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: But his obsession with me.
• 37:42
  Speaker 25: Jimmy had a person, a persona that he put on
• 37:46
  Speaker 25: in public and one very dark one in private. So
• 37:51
  Speaker 25: it's really hard to sit here and talk about.
• 37:55
  Speaker 27: The great times when there were.
• 37:58
  Speaker 6: Very few in the beginning. It just, it turned bad.
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: It turned bad rather quickly, Pierce. It did.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: I've been a police officer for 25 years. I've been
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: a detective for 17. All of it's in violent crimes.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: And no, I have not seen anyone plan it to
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: this detail.
• 38:41
  Speaker 9: The decomposing body of Jimmy Jost was found in Southwest
• 38:44
  Speaker 9: Austin with 10 gunshot wounds. Glover said she shot him
• 38:48
  Speaker 9: because he beat her and she thought he was going
• 38:50
  Speaker 9: to kill her.
• 38:51
  Speaker 8: She couldn't ever get rid of him until finally when
• 38:55
  Speaker 8: he ran out of money.
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: Then she decided to kill him.
• 39:00
  Speaker 26: He came at me and we struggled and I dropped
• 39:04
  Speaker 26: him from my.
• 39:05
  Speaker 29: Briefcase and I got the gun and he.
• 39:09
  Speaker 5: Hit me and he was screaming at me.
• 39:12
  Speaker 26: I'll kill you in a demonic voice, just like Satan would.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: And I just emptied it. I just emptied it, God,
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: and I ran.
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: I ran, I ran.
• 39:25
  Speaker 7: He just fell.
• 39:27
  Speaker 5: He just fell.
• 39:30
  Speaker 7: What exactly happened on that final, fateful day of Jimmy's life?
• 39:36
  Speaker 23: Well, the evidence shows that she went to a shooting
• 39:39
  Speaker 23: range here in Austin called Red's.
• 39:41
  Speaker 7: She had been there before.
• 39:42
  Speaker 23: She practiced with the gun that she used to kill Jimmy.
• 39:45
  Speaker 23: She went about ten minutes away to Jimmy's house. After
• 39:50
  Speaker 23: having called him, and our belief was to lure him
• 39:54
  Speaker 23: to the house, and she went up into the upstairs
• 39:58
  Speaker 23: area where there was an attic attached to a bedroom,
• 40:01
  Speaker 23: and she waited. Our belief was that Jimmy would have
• 40:05
  Speaker 23: done just about anything for Rhonda and was probably very
• 40:07
  Speaker 23: excited that she had called him. And she surprised him,
• 40:12
  Speaker 23: came out of the attic area, and she just started shooting,
• 40:16
  Speaker 23: and he turned and then fell. and that the evidence
• 40:19
  Speaker 23: from the medical examiner was that the wounds were consistent
• 40:22
  Speaker 23: with her having shot him as he lay dying or dead.
• 40:25
  Speaker 23: She fled and was eventually arrested in Kansas.
• 40:31
  Speaker 7: Rhonda still claims Jimmy violently abused her, but there is
• 40:35
  Speaker 7: no compelling evidence to prove that. There is, though, compelling
• 40:39
  Speaker 7: evidence it was premeditated. A month before the murder, she
• 40:45
  Speaker 7: practiced killing Jimmy at a gun range. The first time
• 40:50
  Speaker 7: that you go to the gun range is about a
• 40:52
  Speaker 7: month or so before Jimmy dies. Obviously, from the outside,
• 40:56
  Speaker 7: you look at that and you think, well, that's a
• 40:57
  Speaker 7: bit weird. Why is Rhonda going to a gun range
• 41:01
  Speaker 7: for the first time so soon to Jimmy's death?
• 41:06
  Speaker 17: Why did you go that first time?
• 41:07
  Speaker 25: First of all, the owners of Top Gun are the Saragussas,
• 41:12
  Speaker 25: and that's Rocky's uncle. So if I'm going to murder somebody,
• 41:16
  Speaker 25: I certainly wouldn't have gone to a gun range where
• 41:18
  Speaker 25: the people know me.
• 41:19
  Speaker 17: What are you really thinking about?
• 41:21
  Speaker 7: What's concerning you enough to want to go and learn
• 41:24
  Speaker 7: how to fire a gun suddenly?
• 41:25
  Speaker 25: Well, he came to my apartment 12 times trying to
• 41:28
  Speaker 25: get in to get to me.
• 41:29
  Speaker 7: So you've gone to the range because you want to
• 41:31
  Speaker 7: protect yourself?
• 41:34
  Speaker 25: I really felt that if he just knew that I
• 41:36
  Speaker 25: had a gun, like because the Saragussas knew us, or
• 41:40
  Speaker 25: even if he saw that I had one, then he
• 41:42
  Speaker 25: would stop stalking me because I lived in a paranoid
• 41:47
  Speaker 25: life of when is he going to, when is my
• 41:51
  Speaker 25: day coming? When is he gonna be, when is he
• 41:53
  Speaker 25: gonna finish me off? Because he was so serious that
• 41:57
  Speaker 25: if he could not have me, no one would.
• 41:59
  Speaker 17: Why should I believe you?
• 42:01
  Speaker 25: Why should you believe me? Because the facts are there, Piers.
• 42:04
  Speaker 25: If you look hard enough, the facts are there. And
• 42:07
  Speaker 25: I want you to look, I'm begging you to look
• 42:09
  Speaker 25: at the case from a different perspective and not just
• 42:13
  Speaker 25: listen to what these other people are saying.
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: She planned this. She ran through a scenario, bought a gun,
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: ran through a scenario on how to use the gun
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: in a scenario. That's the scenario she used to kill Jimmy.
• 42:24
  Speaker 7: And then she ran.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: She didn't go to the police. She didn't call anybody
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: and say, hey, you know, he just tried to do
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: this to me or that to me and I killed
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: him and I'm worried they will blame me for it.
• 42:35
  Speaker 8: She ran.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: She didn't reach out to anybody.
• 42:38
  Speaker 17: She ran.
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: And she was trying to hide from the police.
• 42:41
  Speaker 7: Until we caught her.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: She's a calculated, cold-hearted murderer.
• 42:49
  Speaker 7: Only Rhonda knows why she took the life of Jimmy
• 42:52
  Speaker 7: Jost that day. She surely must have known that by
• 42:57
  Speaker 7: doing so, she would ruin her own life too.
• 43:03
  Speaker 30: First off, I miss my buddy. He was a good guy.
• 43:08
  Speaker 30: And you look back, hell, I'm 64 now. Jimmy would
• 43:12
  Speaker 30: have been 66 or 67. When we were going nuts
• 43:17
  Speaker 30: and chasing women and having a blast, we were in
• 43:19
  Speaker 30: our early 30s and our 40s. And you look back
• 43:26
  Speaker 30: on it, you miss him. He was fun to be around.
• 43:31
  Speaker 30: There was always something going on. And when you look
• 43:33
  Speaker 30: at Rhonda... And I kind of feel sorry for Rhonda.
• 43:36
  Speaker 30: She just made a serious big ass mistake. I'll say
• 43:40
  Speaker 30: hello to her. I'll sit down and have lunch with her.
• 43:42
  Speaker 30: I don't, you know, I'm not going to hate her.
• 43:45
  Speaker 30: You forgive a lot when you get older. You don't
• 43:47
  Speaker 30: have time to hate anymore.
• 43:52
  Speaker 16: We, the jury, having found the defendant, Rhonda Lee Glover,
• 43:55
  Speaker 16: guilty of the.
• 43:55
  Speaker 31: Offense of murder, assess her punishment at confinement in the
• 43:59
  Speaker 31: Institutional Division of the Texas Department of Criminal Justice.
• 44:03
  Speaker 5: For a term of 46 years.
• 44:23
  Speaker 7: On a human level, this is excruciatingly difficult to talk
• 44:28
  Speaker 7: to somebody who's incarcerated in prison for as long as.
• 44:32
  Speaker 17: You have to be and have already been, right?
• 44:34
  Speaker 6: Sure.
• 44:34
  Speaker 7: Living with the consequences of what happened that day. If
• 44:38
  Speaker 7: Jimmy was here now, what would you say to him?
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: I haven't thought that far. I haven't thought that far.
• 44:48
  Speaker 7: What would I say to him?
• 44:50
  Speaker 17: If you had the chance to speak to him one
• 44:52
  Speaker 17: more time, what would you say?
• 44:54
  Speaker 7: Would you.
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: Why would he.
• 44:57
  Speaker 10: Why would he want to hurt us?
• 44:59
  Speaker 25: If he loved us so much, why would he do
• 45:01
  Speaker 25: all those things to us?
• 45:04
  Speaker 13: Why would he hurt us?
• 45:05
  Speaker 17: Would you apologize to him for killing him?
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 45:15
  Speaker 25: And I would tell him that I didn't mean to
• 45:17
  Speaker 25: kill him.
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: I really believed. I shot him in the elbow six times.
• 45:23
  Speaker 7: Rhonda, do you still love him?
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 45:28
  Speaker 4: We have a child.
• 45:31
  Speaker 17: Think you'll always love Jimmy?
• 45:34
  Speaker 11: Yes.
• 45:37
  Speaker 17: Rhonda, thank you for your time.
• 45:40
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 45:46
  Speaker 7: Rhonda Glover will serve at least another 11 years in
• 45:49
  Speaker 7: prison for killing the man she loved. I was told
• 46:03
  Speaker 7: that you do a particularly good Amazing Grace, but that
• 46:07
  Speaker 7: was like your go-to song. Is that true?
• 46:11
  Speaker 6: It might be.
• 46:12
  Speaker 7: Do you still sing it?
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.
• 46:15
  Speaker 7: Could you sing it now?
• 46:17
  Speaker 6: Sure. Amazing grace, how.
• 46:27
  Speaker 10: Sweet My view on Erin Gaffey is, um....
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: She's a murderer.
• 46:38
  Speaker 10: Pure and simple.
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: I've never come across anyone as dangerous as Erin, and
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: I hope that I never do.
• 46:46
  Speaker 6: Wow.
• 46:59
  Speaker 7: You have a great voice.
• 47:00
  Speaker 25: Thank you.
• 47:03
  Speaker 17: I mean, a really good voice.
• 47:04
  Speaker 7: You can probably sing.
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 47:11
  Speaker 7: I have to ask this because just having spent some
• 47:14
  Speaker 7: time with you, I can't picture you as somebody that
• 47:21
  Speaker 7: would want her family annihilated. It doesn't make any sense
• 47:25
  Speaker 7: to me that you would want that to happen.
• 47:33
  Speaker 11: A mother, 39 years of age, two male children aged
• 47:37
  Speaker 11: 8 and 13 have been found in the residence. That
• 47:41
  Speaker 11: has been burned.
• 47:47
  Speaker 29: We were just a normal, all-American family living day by day.
• 48:05
  Speaker 13: My mind's thinking, if.
• 48:19
  Speaker 7: I die, they may never know who did this.
• 48:21
  Speaker 29: I've got to stay alive long enough so I can
• 48:23
  Speaker 29: identify the killers.
• 48:31
  Speaker 17: My heart completely broke for Aaron.
• 48:34
  Speaker 7: I believed her story initially. It was convincing. I was
• 48:53
  Speaker 7: on my way to meet Erin's father, Terry, at the
• 48:56
  Speaker 7: scene of the murders. The Caffees were a church-going family,
• 49:03
  Speaker 7: and Penny homeschooled Erin and her two younger brothers, Matthew
• 49:07
  Speaker 7: and Tyler. Terry has not been back to the site
• 49:13
  Speaker 7: of his old house for years. I suppose my first thought, Terry,
• 49:20
  Speaker 7: walking down here, is it's so beautiful and it's so peaceful.
• 49:23
  Speaker 17: It's peaceful.
• 49:24
  Speaker 29: You would never dream that something so tragic happened somewhere
• 49:27
  Speaker 29: so beautiful. It's so quiet when you come out here,
• 49:29
  Speaker 29: but that night it was so chaotic, so loud, the gunshots.
• 49:33
  Speaker 7: What is the first thing that you hear or experience
• 49:37
  Speaker 7: that night that... makes you realize something awful is about
• 49:41
  Speaker 7: to happen?
• 49:42
  Speaker 17: It's quiet.
• 49:42
  Speaker 29: We're peacefully asleep in our bed. Then all of a sudden,
• 49:45
  Speaker 29: our bedroom door flies open, and you can hear the
• 49:49
  Speaker 29: door hitting the wall, like, bam. And I'm thinking maybe
• 49:53
  Speaker 29: my youngest, Tyler, had a nightmare or something. He flew
• 49:55
  Speaker 29: into the bedroom. But just as quickly as the door
• 49:58
  Speaker 29: flew open, bam, bam, bam, the gun blast went off,
• 50:01
  Speaker 29: and we're being riddled by gunfire. Then I knew immediately
• 50:04
  Speaker 29: we're being attacked.
• 50:05
  Speaker 17: You recognize... one of the two people have come in, right?
• 50:09
  Speaker 17: Charles Wilkinson.
• 50:11
  Speaker 7: So you suddenly realize that the person that is causing
• 50:14
  Speaker 7: this mayhem, or one of the two people, is your
• 50:18
  Speaker 7: daughter's boyfriend, the guy who until two days before has
• 50:22
  Speaker 7: been her boyfriend?
• 50:23
  Speaker 17: Correct.
• 50:23
  Speaker 29: He'd been in our home many times. I knew immediately
• 50:28
  Speaker 29: why he was there. He was to get revenge because
• 50:31
  Speaker 29: we made him break up with our daughter. I heard
• 50:34
  Speaker 29: my son Matthew cry out. He said, Charlie, Charlie, why
• 50:37
  Speaker 29: are you doing this? No, Charlie, no, please, why are
• 50:39
  Speaker 29: you doing this? And then I'm trying to get up.
• 50:41
  Speaker 29: And then all of a sudden, bam, bam, I heard
• 50:43
  Speaker 29: the gunshots. I realized Matthew's been shot. So I finally
• 50:46
  Speaker 29: managed to get to my feet. I'm trying to get
• 50:48
  Speaker 29: out the bedroom door to get upstairs to my children.
• 50:50
  Speaker 29: But by this time, the house is totally engulfed. I'm
• 50:53
  Speaker 29: hit by a wall of flames. Forced back into my bedroom,
• 50:56
  Speaker 29: and there's Penny Lander. And when I saw her, I
• 50:59
  Speaker 29: immediately knew she was gone because not only did they
• 51:02
  Speaker 29: come in and shoot, that he also came in with
• 51:05
  Speaker 29: this samurai-type sword, and she would nearly be decapitated. And
• 51:10
  Speaker 29: I guess it's just a shock that I'm in because
• 51:11
  Speaker 29: I'm thinking, if I could just get to my neighbors,
• 51:13
  Speaker 29: somehow we can fix this. We can get them out,
• 51:15
  Speaker 29: everything's going to be okay. I'm not thinking rationally. I've
• 51:18
  Speaker 29: just got to get help, got to get them out.
• 51:19
  Speaker 29: Then my thoughts went to, if I die here, I
• 51:22
  Speaker 29: may not be able to tell who did this. I've
• 51:24
  Speaker 29: got to stay alive long enough so I can identify
• 51:27
  Speaker 29: the killers.
• 51:32
  Speaker 25: Phone rings 911, what's the address of your emergency?
• 51:40
  Speaker 20: This is Tommy Gaston.
• 51:41
  Speaker 13: I've got a man that's been shot out here at
• 51:44
  Speaker 13: my house.
• 51:46
  Speaker 4: Okay, so he's been shot?
• 51:48
  Speaker 6: Yes, and we've also got a house on fire out here.
• 51:52
  Speaker 29: An attack on a Rains County family left a mother
• 51:55
  Speaker 29: and her two sons dead and a father in the hospital.
• 51:58
  Speaker 18: The victims were found in a burning house near Emory,
• 52:00
  Speaker 18: 60 miles east of Dallas.
• 52:02
  Speaker 29: The crime has rocked the Rains County area. No one
• 52:04
  Speaker 29: here can remember a tragedy of this magnitude or a
• 52:07
  Speaker 29: crime this horrific.
• 52:10
  Speaker 7: Terry was fighting for his life in hospital, but he
• 52:13
  Speaker 7: told police that Erin's boyfriend, Charlie, was one of the murderers.
• 52:18
  Speaker 7: He was arrested along with the other accomplices. At the house,
• 52:22
  Speaker 7: the bodies of Penny, Matthew, and Tyler had been found,
• 52:26
  Speaker 7: but there was no sign of Erin. When police searched
• 52:31
  Speaker 7: Charlie's trailer, they made an unexpected discovery.
• 52:36
  Speaker 31: The search of the house was kind of, it was
• 52:38
  Speaker 31: a standard deal. The bedroom was very cluttered, mattress on
• 52:41
  Speaker 31: the floor, clothes everywhere. I came across something that looked
• 52:47
  Speaker 31: like a wig, a hair wig, blonde hair wig, thought
• 52:49
  Speaker 31: it was kind of strange. Moving it aside, you know,
• 52:52
  Speaker 31: pull it by the hair, and it was Erin Caffey
• 52:54
  Speaker 31: opening her eyes. Kind of startled us a little bit,
• 52:57
  Speaker 31: so not a little bit, a lot, you know.
• 53:01
  Speaker 7: Erin claimed she'd been drugged and kidnapped from the house.
• 53:06
  Speaker 7: But after just two days, the disturbing truth had emerged.
• 53:11
  Speaker 7: The police went to the hospital to break the news
• 53:14
  Speaker 7: to Terry that his daughter was involved in the murders.
• 53:19
  Speaker 21: Kathy, I'm Kirk Fisher.
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: I'm going to keep that from Sarah.
• 53:22
  Speaker 21: I guess first they want to know how my daughter is.
• 53:24
  Speaker 29: They won't tell me a whole lot, and they won't
• 53:28
  Speaker 29: let me watch the news.
• 53:30
  Speaker 5: She is. She's doing fine.
• 53:32
  Speaker 7: I don't want to know a whole lot of details, but.
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: What kind of involvement is she in? Her involvement is great.
• 53:47
  Speaker 4: I'm here for you.
• 53:49
  Speaker 5: I can be with you.
• 53:51
  Speaker 10: God is in control.
• 54:13
  Speaker 7: I'd been granted an hour to interview Erin Caffey at
• 54:16
  Speaker 7: the Hilltop Unit in Gatesville, Texas. Investigators remain convinced it
• 54:23
  Speaker 7: was all her idea to kill her family. But Erin
• 54:28
  Speaker 7: has always denied this.
• 54:30
  Speaker 8: Hi, Erin.
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: Nice to meet you.
• 54:43
  Speaker 7: Erin.
• 54:43
  Speaker 10: Hi.
• 54:44
  Speaker 7: It's good to meet you.
• 54:45
  Speaker 6: Good to meet you.
• 54:46
  Speaker 7: You're much smaller than I thought you'd be.
• 54:49
  Speaker 6: How tall are you?
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: 4'11.
• 54:50
  Speaker 22: 4'11.
• 54:51
  Speaker 7: And how old are you now?
• 54:54
  Speaker 20: 24.
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: 24.
• 54:54
  Speaker 7: And you've been inside here for how long?
• 54:56
  Speaker 6: Eight, going on eight years now.
• 54:58
  Speaker 7: You were 16 when this all happened. When you look back,
• 55:02
  Speaker 7: can you quite believe that that person was you that
• 55:06
  Speaker 7: got caught up in such a terrible thing?
• 55:11
  Speaker 4: No, not really.
• 55:12
  Speaker 6: I mean, just from the way we lived, you know,
• 55:15
  Speaker 6: who we were in the church and all that. You know,
• 55:19
  Speaker 6: I was voted, when we went to a youth camp,
• 55:21
  Speaker 6: you know, most likely to succeed, you know, and best
• 55:25
  Speaker 6: fun-loving person. And never did I think I'd be sitting here.
• 55:29
  Speaker 7: See, that's extraordinary, isn't it? Most likely to succeed, most
• 55:34
  Speaker 7: fun-loving person. You're from a very loving family. And yet
• 55:39
  Speaker 7: it ends in this terrible... catastrophic mass murder, what the
• 55:46
  Speaker 7: hell happened?
• 55:48
  Speaker 6: I guess what it all boils down to when I
• 55:49
  Speaker 6: think about it, and I think about other young kids
• 55:53
  Speaker 6: that have came in after me, and people that'll come
• 55:56
  Speaker 6: in even when I die, you know, young kids, it's
• 56:00
  Speaker 6: all about choices, and the choices I made at a
• 56:04
  Speaker 6: young age didn't think that it would affect, you know,
• 56:09
  Speaker 6: I just thought it was just affecting me. and the
• 56:11
  Speaker 6: little stuff that I was doing, but the little stuff
• 56:13
  Speaker 6: adds up and then it just blows up and we
• 56:18
  Speaker 6: don't think about choices.
• 56:20
  Speaker 7: When your dad looked you in the eye and said,
• 56:23
  Speaker 7: did you do this? Were you involved in this? What
• 56:29
  Speaker 7: did you say to him the first time he asked
• 56:30
  Speaker 7: you that question?
• 56:32
  Speaker 6: At first he told me he loved me and then
• 56:35
  Speaker 6: he said, you know, did you have any involvement in this?
• 56:41
  Speaker 6: And when I saw him there, I was like, no, no, no, no.
• 56:46
  Speaker 6: And I started screaming. He just said, okay, just don't
• 56:48
  Speaker 6: talk about it. I guess just it hit me hard
• 56:51
  Speaker 6: when I saw his arm in that sling.
• 56:55
  Speaker 7: That was reality for you?
• 56:56
  Speaker 24: Yeah.
• 56:58
  Speaker 7: You realized this was not a game.
• 57:00
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 57:00
  Speaker 7: Your dad and Nidhi died and everybody else was dead.
• 57:05
  Speaker 7: This was real.
• 57:11
  Speaker 13: I love you.
• 57:35
  Speaker 10: I thought it was the most disturbing thing I'd ever seen.
• 57:37
  Speaker 10: I had seen things where there were more victims. I
• 57:39
  Speaker 10: had seen cases that were more heinous. I had seen
• 57:42
  Speaker 10: cases that were more premeditated. But when you took the
• 57:45
  Speaker 10: totality of all the circumstances, it really was the most
• 57:48
  Speaker 10: disturbing thing I had ever seen.
• 57:49
  Speaker 7: I just can't believe she'd do something like this.
• 57:54
  Speaker 4: Her own brothers and her mom.
• 57:58
  Speaker 6: When I look back on it now, this was all
• 58:01
  Speaker 6: just stupid. I mean, for what? You know, they weren't
• 58:06
  Speaker 6: beating me, they weren't starving me to death. I had
• 58:08
  Speaker 6: it made. You know, Daddy bought me a car, let
• 58:11
  Speaker 6: me have a job.
• 58:24
  Speaker 7: What is your view of Erin Caffey? I'm going to
• 58:30
  Speaker 7: have to think on that a little bit. Erin seems
• 58:33
  Speaker 7: to be one of those people that everybody has to
• 58:35
  Speaker 7: think about for quite a bit because what she did
• 58:38
  Speaker 7: is apparently so out of kilter with her upbringing, her parenting,
• 58:45
  Speaker 7: the schooling. There's nothing there to suggest mass murder.
• 58:49
  Speaker 10: It didn't jive at all. It never has jived, as
• 58:53
  Speaker 10: it didn't with any of the other three. It didn't
• 58:57
  Speaker 10: fit Charlie. It didn't fit Charles. It didn't fit Bobby.
• 59:01
  Speaker 10: And that was part of what made this case so
• 59:03
  Speaker 10: perplexing all along was what in the world made them
• 59:07
  Speaker 10: think A, that this was a good idea, B, that
• 59:09
  Speaker 10: they could get away with it, or C, that there
• 59:12
  Speaker 10: weren't obvious long-term ramifications for this. It just defied all logic.
• 59:18
  Speaker 7: It still does.
• 59:21
  Speaker 14: A community east of Dallas is still coping tonight with
• 59:24
  Speaker 14: an attack that left a mother and her two sons
• 59:26
  Speaker 14: dead and a father in the hospital.
• 59:28
  Speaker 12: In custody are 18-year-old Bobby Johnson, 20-year-old Charles Wade, and
• 59:34
  Speaker 12: 19-year-old Charles Wilkinson. He's the boyfriend of 16-year-old Aaron Caffey.
• 59:41
  Speaker 13: Well, I asked you a question.
• 59:43
  Speaker 6: You shot her dad, right?
• 59:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 59:48
  Speaker 13: Did you shoot them kids?
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: No.
• 59:50
  Speaker 13: I told him I could see you shooting her dad
• 59:53
  Speaker 13: because you're a hothead, but I couldn't see you shooting
• 59:56
  Speaker 13: them two little kids.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 7: Trying to make sense of how this could have happened
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 7: comes down to this question. Is Erin Caffey a cold,
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 7: calculating murderer? Or is she a vulnerable young woman who
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 7: just got caught up in the romantic thrall of a
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 7: controlling boyfriend? When you look back on life before this atrocity,
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 7: do you think of any moments now when you look
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 7: back and think, maybe that was a warning sign, that
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 7: was something? You must agonize over this. Have you been
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 7: able to identify anything?
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 29: One thing is that when Aaron began to date Charlie,
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 29: I noticed something. Aaron began to change. Before this happened,
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 29: Aaron was a very happy young lady. But when Charlie
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 29: came around, I noticed she began to change. But there
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 29: was just something about Charlie that just, it was like
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 29: when you looked him in the eye, you could see
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 29: right through his soul. It was like you could see
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 29: right through him, even though he's trying to be overly
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 29: polite in some areas. But I just sensed that something
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 29: didn't seem right.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 7: As the relationship with Charlie Wilkinson develops and you and
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 7: Penny get more and more concerned and Penny goes to
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 7: the library, finds his MySpace page and sees all this
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 7: stuff about drinking and having sex with multiple people, any
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 7: parent seeing that with their little girl being 16, you know,
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 7: pretty innocent girl from all accounts, is going to freak
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 7: out a bit. We knew we had to do something.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 29: It was time to have this sit-down talk. There was
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 29: no more.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 29: Denying this or thinking there's not a problem or allowing
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 29: Erin to resolve this issue because it wasn't being resolved
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 29: because it's ongoing.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 7: But she took it surprisingly well when you said you
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 7: can't see him anymore, right? Somewhat. She held her head.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 29: I remember her holding her head down and teary-eyed a
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 29: little bit, and she said that she'd been trying to,
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 29: she'd been wanting to end it but didn't know how.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 29: And I didn't really know how to take that at
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 29: that time, and I said, well, just consider it done.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 6: I was shocked, angry, hurt. This was a guy I
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 6: was supposed to spend the rest of my life with,
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 6: and he loved me.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 7: You loved him?
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 17: Like, properly loved him?
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 6: I don't know if at 16 I knew what proper
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 6: love was, but at the time, oh, yeah, I was
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 6: in love, and we were going to get married.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 7: He said since that he felt the only way he
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 7: could get you back was to do what he said
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 7: he wanted, which was to kill your family.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 6: I can't put words in his mouth, I can't.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 7: Did you remember saying that to him? No. What conversation
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 7: did you have with him about.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 17: Killing your family?
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 6: He said it like it was a game. He had
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 6: a name for it.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 7: What was the name?
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 6: Fubar.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 7: Fubar? Fubar.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 6: And he would always, I mean, there was no really
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 6: serious planning. He would always just say, I just want
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 6: a Fubar. What does that mean? Like, to kill your family.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 6: And I would, like, laugh and joke about it, huh, okay,
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 6: and didn't take him seriously. I mean, he kind of
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 6: had an anger problem, you know, and just kind of
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 6: blew him off.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 10: Bobby Johnson and Charles Wade picked up Charlie Wilkinson. And
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 10: they went out to Aaron's house at around midnight. And
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 10: Aaron was home with the family. And they had a
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 10: black lab that was outside. And the dog started barking.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 7: And they ended up leaving.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 4: And then after.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 10: That was when Aaron was calling, Charlie, where are you?
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 10: I'll take care of the dog.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 6: I'll keep the dog quiet.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 10: You need to come back. They picked Aaron up. And
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 10: the four of them then went to a cemetery and
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 10: sat in the car for an hour or so and
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 10: talked about what they were going to do and talked
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 10: about how they were going to commit the murders. And
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 10: that was always the point in time where I was
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 10: just so perplexed. Why didn't someone say, hey, wait, this
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 10: is a bad idea? Ultimately, nobody did. And so they
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 10: turned around and they went back to the home. The
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 10: boys parked the car out on the road. Aaron and
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 10: Bobby sat in the back seat. Charles and Charlie went
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 10: up to the house, and of course Aaron had left
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 10: the front door unlocked. Charlie shot Terry first, and then
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 10: he shot Penny, and the gun jammed. He grabbed the
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 10: sword and stabbed Penny with the sword and almost cut
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 10: her head off. Then the boys heard the ruckus downstairs.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 10: They were upstairs yelling, and Charles Wade shot up and
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 10: shot Matthew. Then Charlie Wilkinson went and took the knife
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 10: and stabbed Tyler to death as he hid in the closet,
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 10: which was probably of all the things that were done
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 10: that night, the most disturbing to me. And then after that,
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 10: they set the house on fire with big lighters they
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 10: had purchased earlier in the evening.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 7: And then they left.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 10: Charles Wade and Bobby dropped Aaron and Charlie off at
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 10: Charlie's brother's trailer, where they then had sex. And Charles
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 10: and Bobby went on home.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 7: Later that morning, the police arrested Charlie. Under interrogation, he
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 7: told them the murders had been instigated by Erin. But
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 7: she was in hospital still insisting that she'd been drugged
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 7: and kidnapped from the house.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 32: I made contact with the female officers there, requested them
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 32: to have a full tox screen toxicology done on Ms. Caffey,
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 32: and I requested the officer to gather her clothing and
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 32: tell me if it smelled like smoke, because if you're
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 32: in a room that's full of smoke, you're going to
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 32: smell like smoke. And the officer advised me that there
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 32: was no smell of smoke anywhere.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 24: Aaron, you said that you woke up and smoke was everywhere,
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 24: is that right? And you said that.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 10: Two guys were with swords.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 24: Are you okay?
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 4: Tell me again what they told you to do.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 7: Where were you at when you first saw them?
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 20: Yeah.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 7: You've been identified as the ringleader, the master of this operation.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 7: It was all your idea, you driving it. You were
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 7: the one that wanted this to happen. You wanted your
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 7: family to be killed.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 6: The media, you know, when things first happen, the media
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 6: takes something and runs with it. And I just think
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 6: that when this first happened, the media took something somebody
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 6: said and then just blew it up.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 7: How do you measure that against what happened on the night?
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 7: Because you're inside the house, you make over a dozen
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 7: phone calls to him. You then go out, you sit
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 7: in the car, they've got guns, they've got swords. They
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 7: go in, you know what they're going in to do.
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 7: As you're sitting in that car and you know they've
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 7: gone in to do this, what's going through your mind then?
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 4: I guess.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 7: You can hear it, right?
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: No.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 7: You couldn't hear it? Couldn't hear the gunfire?
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: No.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 7: You knew what they were doing?
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 6: Oh, right. I guess I wasn't thinking.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 7: What people found... extraordinary, amid many extraordinary things, is that
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 7: you went back and eventually end up with your boyfriend
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 7: and you have sex together after this has happened, after
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 7: you know this guy has killed your family.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 6: It's... um the best way I can explain it is
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 6: when you make one bad choice it's like when you
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 6: I guess maybe if you tell a lie I don't
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 6: know this is a good way of explaining it when
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 6: you tell a lie it's not just that one lie
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 6: then you cover it up with this lie and then
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 6: this lie and the lies get caught up one of.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 7: The investigators said, you were the best liar they'd ever met.
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 7: I don't know if that's true or not. What I
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 7: feel as you're telling this story is that you're honest
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 7: to a point. I mean, it's almost like a barrier
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 7: comes up where you don't want to admit that you
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 7: were that person because it's easier, that it's hard to
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 7: admit what probably happened.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 5: You want to stay with that story? That's fine.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 4: That's what I heard last night.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 14: It's what she said, Charlie, get rid of my parents.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 4: I'm tired of being beat.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 5: Well, I'll tell you, I've seen her today, and she
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 5: don't have a beating mark on her. You see a
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 5: beating mark on her?
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: I didn't either.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 5: I ain't seen a mark on her.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 4: She said that her mom had been pushing her and
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 4: stuff like that.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 7: Well, that's not the end of it. Slap her and
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 7: punch her.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: Is it worth killing her?
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 6: No.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 5: Anybody say anything in the car after y'all left the house?
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 7: The accomplices' stories matched. They all said it was Erin
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 7: who'd been behind the killings. But in the eight years
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 7: since the murders, Erin has continued to deny that she
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 7: was the mastermind. Let me ask you a really difficult question,
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 7: because it is a difficult question. Do you believe the
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 7: version that Erin's giving you, or do you feel like
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 7: you have to believe it at this stage? I think
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 7: for the most part, I believe.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 29: There's some details that maybe that's not completely out there,
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 29: but for the most part, I believe. You know your children.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 29: I'm not saying that our children are innocent. But you
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 29: get to know your kids, what they're capable of, what
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 29: they're not. Erin had responsibility that night. She really did.
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 29: But I didn't really know how to take all this
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 29: back then. But looking back now, I honestly believe that
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 29: she was not the mastermind. And I'm not saying that
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 29: out of denial because it's my daughter. But I don't
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 29: believe my daughter's evil. And I don't believe that she
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 29: was the driving force. She was a contributor, yes. But
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 29: you got to understand, this was a vulnerable 16-year-old girl.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 29: This is this controlling... psychopath, sociopath guy. You mix that together,
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 29: this is what you ended up with.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 7: Charlie Wilkinson came from a broken home, but often spent
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 7: time here at the house of Theresa Myers. He became
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 7: good friends with her son and confided in her. He
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 7: called her Mum. There are two schools of thought. One
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 7: is that he was the driving force with his friend,
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 7: that he wanted to somehow impress Erin, maybe win her back,
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 7: whatever it may be, and it was all from him.
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 7: The other school of thought is it was all driven
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 7: by Erin. She's this malevolent, evil young woman who compelled
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 7: him to do this. What do you think?
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 14: I think because I know Charlie, he wasn't an evil person.
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 14: I don't think that he had a.
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 14: An evil bone in his body. But the times leading
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 14: up to what happened, I had many conversations with him,
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 14: you know, where he felt like she was in danger.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 17: In danger how?
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 14: I remember a time when my son was with him,
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 14: and they were due home. And Charlie always made sure
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 14: that he got Justin home on time, but they were late.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 14: And I reached him. I'm like, what is going on?
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 14: He's like, I'm at the police station with Charlie. I'm like,
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 14: what are you doing there?
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 4: And he said.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 14: He's up here because Erin said that her mom hit her.
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 14: I mean, I was upset with Charlie. I said, do
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 14: you know? I mean, do you know that she was hit?
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 4: Well, she said.
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 14: And I told him, I said, you know, she said
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 14: doesn't show proof. Have you seen marks on her? Have
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 14: you seen her mom hit her? Have you, you know,
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 14: done anything like that? And he's like, well, no. And
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 14: I said, then you're taking her word. And from that moment,
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 14: I kind of felt like she was pulling strings. You know,
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 14: she had a hold and she was trying to manipulate
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 14: him into believing that all these things were happening when
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 14: they weren't.
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 7: You were trying, obviously, in a delicate way to get
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 7: Charlie to leave her, to move on.
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 24: Oh, yeah.
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 14: But he just truly in his heart felt like he
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 14: loved her. And love can be a really scary thing.
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 2: Let me ask you a question.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 5: When you went there shooting at Mom and Dad.
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: What was your intention? What were you intending to.
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 10: Do?
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 5: I guess he was attempting to kill me.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 30: Because I thought I was important.
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: For you? Is she worth all this?
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 7: I don't know.
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 10: The very first day we had court, we went up
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 10: to Rains County, and that was the first day we
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 10: met Terry. He was just out of hospital. You could
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 10: still see the holes in his face. And we sat down,
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 10: and we had a meeting that said that, um, We
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 10: don't have to talk about the issue of the death
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 10: penalty yet.
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 4: It's too early.
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 10: There's no sense in doing it at this point. And
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 10: I'll never forget, he just looked at me and he said,
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 10: he ate at my table. And I was taken aback
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 10: by that. And he said, I want the death penalty.
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 10: And he was adamant, as to Charles Wade and Charlie.
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 7: And I said, okay.
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 29: I remember my pastor coming to me and saying, we
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 29: need to pray for these young men and blah, blah, blah.
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 17: And I'm thinking, why?
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 29: They can just rot in hell is what I told him.
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 29: And that's how much anger I had. I remember every
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 29: month they would have these pre-trial hearings. And I remember
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 29: one time setting two or three benches back, and I
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 29: could see the backs of their heads.
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 7: And I thought how easy it would.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 29: Be to sneak in there with a gun and just
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 29: blow their heads off. And I contemplated that for a
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 29: whole month.
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 6: And that was my thought.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 4: I'm going to do it.
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 7: I'm going to go take their life.
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 6: I went out and purchased a.
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 29: Gun, but when it came down to it, I even
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 29: had the gun in my truck, and I went to
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 29: the court that day. I remember backing my truck up
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 29: in front of the court, and I went to go
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 29: get my gun, and I just began to shake. It
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 29: was like, this is not the answer. This is not
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 29: going to bring your family back.
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 7: While the court hearings continued, a new witness came forward,
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 7: Erin's former boyfriend, Michael Washburn. His testimony was absolutely pivotal
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 7: to nailing the lies of Erin Caffey and finally proved
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 7: that she had been the mastermind behind the murders.
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 33: In doing the investigation here, we've learned that you and
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 33: Erin had dated at one time. What caused the breakup?
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 2: Her mom and dad didn't want me seeing her.
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 33: As I ask questions, if I ask a direct or
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 33: hard question, I need a grown-up man's response, okay, to
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 33: help solve what truly happened that night.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you the truth. Okay.
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 11: She told me that she was going to hire somebody
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 11: to go out there and kill her parents.
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 33: Why was she wanting to have somebody go out to
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 33: the house and kill the parents?
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 11: Because she told me that Every time she gets a
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 11: boyfriend that she really likes, her mom and dad tries
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 11: to break them up.
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 17: Let me ask you some tough questions.
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 7: You can answer them however you want, but I think
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 7: you're in a position now in your life, and you've
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 7: had a lot of time to think about this, where
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 7: you can probably be more honest than you could have
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 7: been maybe eight years ago. What's pretty clear is that
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 7: you certainly told people that you wanted your family dead.
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 7: Why was that?
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 6: Well, I've talked to several young ladies in here, and,
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 6: you know, they've said, well, I said one time when
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 6: I was, you know, your age, you know, I wish
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 6: my parents were dead. And, you know, we say things
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 6: when we're young, if we're mad, not realizing that you
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 6: gotta be careful what you say, and especially, you know,
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 6: to whoever.
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 7: As you sit here now, and you look back over
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 7: what happened, how much personal responsibility do you now take?
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 6: Well, I'm still working on that, and please hear me
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 6: say I'm not, you know, I first got looked up.
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 6: I do the name game, but I Know I need
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 6: to for myself and then for others take responsibility for
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 6: my actions and.
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 7: Like I said, it's one of those actions, what do
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 7: you take your responsibility for I?
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 6: It's just that, I don't know, still got some things
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 6: I gotta process and work out.
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 7: Do you accept that your family would still all be
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 7: alive if you had wanted them to be alive? In
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 7: other words, that you could have stopped this at any time?
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 17: Yes, oh yeah.
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 7: You accept that?
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 10: Yes.
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 7: That in itself must be a terrible burden on you,
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 7: that you have that power. to stop this happening, that
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 7: you never chose to take that choice, that option. For me,
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 7: the most extraordinary part of this story is that Terry
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 7: and Erin still have any relationship at all, and that
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 7: Terry has found a place in his heart to keep
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 7: loving his daughter.
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 4: To my opinion, Daddy's in total denial.
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 10: He wants her still out of jail. The way I
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 10: have always viewed Terry is that Terry has to do
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 10: and he is entitled to do whatever he needs to
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 10: do to get through. And if that requires him to
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 10: have denial about Aaron, I don't fault him for that.
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 10: and he has every right.
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 2: To do.
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 10: That.
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 7: Your dad's a remarkable man. He has stood by you
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 7: through thick and thin, knowing what you did. What was
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 7: the first moment when you were able to say to him,
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 7: I did have something to do with this?
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 6: It was about the second or third visit. He came
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 6: by himself. And for some reason that day, we were
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 6: emotional from the start. And he had shown me where
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 6: he got shot. And I just started crying and rubbing
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 6: his arm and told him I was sorry. And then
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 6: that's when we got into it.
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 5: We talked about things.
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 7: What was his reaction to that coming out of your
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 7: mouth for the first time?
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 6: My dad had said from the very beginning that... Even
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 6: if I was the one that came in that night
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 6: and stood over his bed, he would still love me
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 6: and come to see me. And he said no matter
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 6: what I could do, it would not change his love
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 6: for me. And I just didn't believe it. And for
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 6: a long time, I was just worried one day I'd
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 6: wake up and he would just decide, you know, I
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 6: don't want to have nothing to do with you. And
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 6: he just reassures me over and over again. You know,
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 6: he loves me. And no matter what, he's on my side.
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 6: And he talks about unconditional love.
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 7: I mean, it's an extraordinary thing for him to do.
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 7: It's attracted lots of reaction, good and bad, for him.
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 7: Some people think it's amazing and the power of his faith.
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 7: Other people think it's ridiculous and he shouldn't be standing
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 7: by someone that killed his wife and his two sons. I,
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 7: as a father of four kids, I can understand why
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 7: he's taken this decision, why he stood by you. You're
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 7: all he's got from that family. In the awful months
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 7: after the murders, Terry chose to come back here and
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 7: live in a camper van. The fire had completely destroyed
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 7: his home. And few traces remained of the life that
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 7: he once shared with his family. It seems to me
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 7: a strange thing to do. like the last thing I'd
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 7: want to do. What pulled you to stay here for
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 7: those four months?
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 29: I felt this is my home, and I'm trying to
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 29: make sense of what happened. I'm thinking if I could
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 29: go back to the property, I still, in a sense,
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 29: still have my family with me. I have the memories,
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 29: and not just the memories of that night, but I
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 29: have the memories of my children playing. I came back
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 29: because I needed to get my healing, and those were
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 29: some Terrible, terrible months. I still sleep with a loaded gun,
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 29: but I have it close by in a nightstand. But
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 29: then I would actually sleep with the gun on my chest.
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 29: I mean, I would just lay there, really. I wouldn't
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 29: sleep much. And when I would doze off, I would
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 29: wake up here, and bam, I would hear the gunshots.
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 29: And I would wake up, and I would just be
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 29: drenched with sweat.
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 7: You said that you feel a sense of guilt, or
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 7: you did for a long time, about what happened. No
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 7: rational person looking at the situation. could level any guilt
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 7: your way at all. Quite the opposite. Have you been
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 7: able to yourself acknowledge that actually it's not your fault,
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 7: that you don't need to feel guilty?
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 29: Finally, you know, folks will ask me, people will say,
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 29: what was your process of forgiveness?
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 17: Who did you forgive first?
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 29: And I always say Erin.
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 7: That was my daughter.
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 29: That was still a struggle, but I was able to
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 29: forgive her, rebuild this relationship. And then it was going
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 29: forward to the boys, forgiving them And, you know, I've
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 29: forgiven them.
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 7: And I was still struggling.
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 29: I had this heaviness and realized I had to forgive myself.
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 29: I didn't cause this. I didn't make those boys come
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 29: here and do that. I didn't pull the trigger. I
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 29: didn't set the things in motion that night for this
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 29: to happen. If I knew they were coming, I would
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 29: have stopped them. I would have protected my family by
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 29: all costs. And so it was a struggle. That very
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 29: shed over there, There was a few things that were
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 29: saved because it was in the shed and not in
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 29: my home. And I came to one letter where Penny
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 29: has said, you're such a great father. And she says,
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 29: she said that you're my hero.
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 17: You're my hero.
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 29: And at that moment, I just broke because I thought,
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 29: you're a hero. I'm the opposite of a hero. And
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 29: that was during those times I was really struggling with
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 29: this with myself because I said, I should have protected
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 29: you and the kids that night. And I began to
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 29: go through all the letters and the cards and brought
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 29: back so many emotions. In that same tote, she had
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 29: saved little baggies of the children's first haircut, lots of
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 29: their first haircut. So I'm opening this up, and I'm smelling,
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 29: and I'm picking.
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 17: Up their hairs.
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 7: My boys.
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 29: It just was such an emotional day that day, you know.
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 7: To think about that.
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 29: But so it has been a struggle to finally get
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 29: to that place where I could forgive myself.
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 17: Thank you, Terry. Thank you.
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 7: Appreciate it. Bless you. Terry eventually requested the accomplices be
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 7: spared the death penalty. Charlie Wilkinson is serving life without parole.
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 7: Charles Wade is also serving life without parole. Bobby Johnson
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 7: will serve a minimum of 20 years. And Erin Caffey
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 7: will serve a minimum of 42 years for murder. Have
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 7: you had any contact with the other three members of
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 7: the group? Nothing? No, sir. Not from the moment? No.
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 7: Everyone got arrested. That was it?
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 7: Do you think you ever will again?
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 6: I don't know. I don't think so.
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 7: I mean, Charlie's said on record that he thinks he'll
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 7: always love you. Do you love him still?
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 6: I mean, I forgive.
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 4: I mean, you know, we all.
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 7: It's all about forgiveness. It's a different thing. It's about
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 7: whether you love him. Whether that burning passion that you
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 7: have for each other is still there for you.
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 6: No.
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 17: Not that way.
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 7: What do you feel about him?
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 4: I feel.
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 6: I feel bad for him. I don't know what it's
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 6: like at the men's unit. I heard it's horrible. And
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 6: I think about his family, you know.
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 7: Do you feel guilty for what happened to their son?
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 7: Do you feel like without you pushing him, it would
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 7: never have happened?
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 6: I've never thought about that.
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 7: Now I'm asking you, do you think that's something you
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 7: should feel? That actually you could have stopped him doing
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 7: this if you wanted to? What do you think the
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 7: first things that you'll do will be when you do
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 7: get out? Have you thought about that day?
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 6: Yes, me and my dad have talked about it. We
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 6: talk about the first thing I want to do is
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 6: go pay my respects to the graveyard.
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 7: What do you think you'll say when you have that moment?
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 6: I don't know if I'll be able to say anything.
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 6: I'm just tearing up now. my dad said that the
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 6: first time he went there he couldn't speak so I
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 6: can imagine you know it might be like that for
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 6: me too but.
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 7: It's something you really want to do it's part of
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 7: the healing process right Well, Erin, it's been fascinating talking
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 7: to you.
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 10: Thank you.
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 7: You're not what I expected. I haven't interviewed many monsters
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 7: or mass murderers, but I've got a much better insight
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 7: into you, the human being behind what happened. And I
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 7: wish you all the very best here in the future
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 7: in trying to make yourself a better person. So thank
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 7: you for your time. Thank you for coming.
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 10: Thank you.
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 4: Thank you.