Latest / Future Christian / Prayer, Politics, and the Witness of the Church in Divided Times: A Roundtable Discussion

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Prayer, Politics, and the Witness of the Church in Divided Times: A Roundtable Discussion · Future Christian

0:06
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source
0:09
for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the
0:12
21st century. At the Future Christian
0:15
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
0:17
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:20
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:23
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:26
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:29
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:32
designed to challenge, inspire and equip you
0:35
with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:38
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:43
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today is
0:45
another roundtable episode with Martha Tatarnick
0:48
leading a conversation featuring me, Loren Richmond
0:51
Jr. As well as Larry Lynn and Dennis
0:53
Sanders. I, uh, trust you know who I am, so here's
0:56
some information about Larry and Dennis.
0:59
Larry Lynn was born and raised in San Jose,
1:02
California and has degrees from Cornell
1:04
University in Southern Baptist Theological
1:07
Seminary. Larry has been a pastor for 10 years
1:10
and he currently serves as a pastor at Grace
1:13
Life Church, a non denominational church in the
1:15
Baltimore area. Previously, Larry worked
1:18
for college ministry in the Washington, D.C.
1:21
area as well as for a non profit called the One
1:24
America Movement, equipping faith leaders with
1:26
resources on toxic polarization.
1:29
Larry enjoys writing about church and politics,
1:32
doing deep dives on Wikipedia, and making
1:35
music. Larry lives with his wife and two children
1:38
in the Mount Washington neighborhood of Baltimore.
1:42
Dennis Sanders is a Michigan native, a lover
1:45
of the Detroit Lions and Michigan State
1:47
Spartans, and an ordained minister in the Christian
1:50
church Disciples of Christ. Dennis has
1:53
degrees from Michigan State University and Luther
1:55
Seminary. Dennis is currently the pastor at First
1:58
Christian Church in St. Paul, Minnesota and the host
2:01
of the Church in Maine podcast, which I
2:04
recommend. Dennis lives in Minneapolis
2:07
with his husband Daniel. Please take a
2:10
moment to rate and review this episode on whatever
2:12
podcast platform you're listening on and if you find
2:15
it helpful, please share it with a ministry friend. Our
2:18
mission is to help you and your church walk boldly into the
2:21
future.
2:30
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I
2:33
am, um, your co host Martha Tatarnick and
2:36
today I am facilitating a panel
2:39
discussion about a topic that has
2:42
sparked a lot of questions for me and
2:45
I imagine for a lot of others as well,
2:48
which is the relationship between American
2:51
politics and the church.
2:54
Now, before giving our guests a chance to introduce
2:57
themselves, I should just remind our
2:59
listeners of a little bit about where I come
3:02
from in moderating this conversation.
3:05
I'm Canadian and I am an
3:08
Anglican priest, so very much part of the mainline
3:11
church serving a congregation in
3:13
Niagara which isn't too far away from
3:16
the border with our American
3:19
neighbors. Our political and
3:21
religious landscape though in Canada, even if we
3:24
are near the border, is quite different from
3:27
our neighbors to the south. And it can
3:30
sometimes be quite baffling to many of us in the
3:33
north. And uh,
3:35
particularly with the
3:37
election this month, um, a lot of
3:40
us have had a lot of questions. So that's a
3:43
little bit about me. But what you're really going to want to
3:46
know about today is about who our guests are,
3:49
are. So I'm going to ask each of you to give
3:52
a little introduction of what sort of
3:55
religious and political space you live and
3:58
serve in. And maybe Dennis, I can get you
4:01
to go first.
4:03
>> Dennis: All right. Um, hello. Uh, my name is
4:06
Dennis Sanders. I am the pastor
4:09
of First Christian Church, um, in
4:12
St. Paul, Minnesota. And that is
4:15
from the mainline uh, Protestant
4:17
denomination. And um, I've been
4:20
pastor here for about 11 years.
4:23
Um, kind of the context that I serve
4:26
in is uh, being that it is
4:29
the Twin Cities, um, it's
4:32
pretty much a, ah, I would say a Democratic
4:34
or to use the colors,
4:37
blue stronghold. Ah, and. And so
4:39
is my congregation,
4:43
um, just for listeners
4:46
who may not be um, in the United
4:48
States, uh, being also in Minnesota, um,
4:51
our governor, um, Tim Walz was the
4:54
running mate for um, Kamala Harris on the
4:57
Democratic ticket. Um, so that's kind of
5:00
been my context and where I'm from.
5:03
>> Martha Tatarnic: Thanks Dennis and Larry. Can you
5:06
just share with our listeners your
5:08
context?
5:10
>> Larry: Hi, my name is Larry. It's a great pleasure for me to be
5:13
here and be uh, part of this podcast.
5:16
I grew up in a non denominational
5:19
church. Uh, it was a Chinese immigrant church in
5:22
California and now I pastor at
5:23
ah, Grace M Life Church which is non
5:26
denominational. But uh, I did spend
5:29
um, most of my life as
5:32
well as my ministry career in conservative
5:34
spaces, um, theologically and
5:38
politically. Um, and it was only more
5:40
recently, uh, when I, I would say now
5:43
I'm more of a, in a moderate
5:46
context. Uh, however I've always, I've only
5:48
ever lived in blue states and so
5:50
um, so uh, that, that, that frames
5:53
my theology as well and my, my
5:55
politics and um, I've been
5:58
living for the past uh, 11
6:01
years now in Baltimore which is a very blue city,
6:05
majority uh, of black city. And
6:08
yeah, that's where I am.
6:09
>> Martha Tatarnic: Thanks Larry. And one uh, of
6:12
the reasons why I am
6:15
facilitating the panel today, not just
6:18
because I was the one with a lot of questions, but
6:21
it gives Loren, your regular host, a chance
6:23
to be on the panel and to weigh in a little bit too. So
6:26
Loren, do you want to just fill In a bit about
6:30
your context, uh,
6:32
politically.
6:34
>> Loren: Yeah. So I live in Denver, metro of
6:36
Colorado. And one
6:39
of the interesting things in the last,
6:41
what, 15, 12, 15 years is Colorado
6:44
has become a red state to a
6:47
swing state to a really solidly blue state.
6:51
Interestingly enough, Colorado tends to have a high
6:54
number of independent voters who are
6:56
non affiliated. So I'm technically a non
6:59
affiliated voter myself.
7:02
Um, but interestingly enough I live in a
7:04
part of the metro area that has. Our
7:08
congressional district has a swath of
7:11
kind of rural ish,
7:13
uh, another section of state that's more conservative.
7:16
So really we just had. Our district
7:19
just went red. So it's interesting, uh,
7:22
Colorado, broadly speaking, kind of,
7:25
you know, the whole country, broadly speaking shifted. Right.
7:28
And Colorado, uh, broadly speaking didn't
7:31
quite follow those shifts. So it's really interesting the kind
7:34
of the trends in Colorado
7:36
versus the national trends.
7:41
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, so
7:44
with American friends that I've been
7:47
talking to, um, American
7:49
podcasters that I listen to, emotions have
7:52
been running pretty high. So since the
7:55
beginning of November and the re election of
7:58
Donald Trump, um,
8:01
how, how are things in your spaces?
8:03
What emotions and uh,
8:06
tensions are you living with in the
8:09
communities where you live and serve?
8:12
Um, Dennis, why don't you lead off again?
8:18
>> Dennis: Yeah, I think one of the things that I
8:21
try to stress, um, we did a
8:24
service, um, that was kind of, we call it an
8:27
election eve service that was based on
8:30
um, something called Election Day Communion, which was
8:33
actually started at the 2012 election.
8:36
Um, and one of the things that I tried to
8:39
do is to really focus on
8:42
um,
8:45
what was the most important thing here.
8:48
Um, and we follow the revised Common Lectionary
8:51
that the gospel, um, for that day
8:54
was um, from Mark. And it was talking about what was the
8:57
greatest commandment. And it was um,
9:00
basically to love God and to love others
9:03
and to have people really focus
9:06
on that and on the
9:09
um, the communion table.
9:12
Um, and especially from, from my tradition
9:14
in the disciples of Christ, that is something that's
9:17
central to us. We have it, we have clean every
9:20
Sunday and
9:22
that no matter what happens, um,
9:25
whether the person that you want would win or lose,
9:28
that this is what, what is most important.
9:31
Um, and so that was kind of the thing that
9:34
I centered on. And then following
9:36
the uh, election, um, the following
9:39
Sunday, we didn't focus as much on the election, but we
9:42
did want to offer
9:45
prayers. Um, and I
9:48
was very specific that we would want to offer prayers
9:51
for the, for um, the President elect.
9:54
And I know that a lot of people in the congregation were
9:57
pretty, not Trump
9:59
supporters and But I think that that was something
10:02
that's important, that was important to,
10:04
to pray for our leaders,
10:07
um, and just to have that
10:10
sense that this is while our
10:13
politics matters and it's important.
10:16
It's also our faith, um, that is
10:18
more important and that we try
10:21
to be centered in that, that we
10:24
love God and love each other,
10:28
um, no matter what and no matter
10:31
what the situation was. And so that's kind of
10:34
where we were at and have been at,
10:36
um, in the weeks following the election.
10:40
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. How about you,
10:42
Larry? Like, how have you spoken into
10:46
the, um, the political
10:48
situation? Do you, do you sort of
10:51
disclose where you sit on
10:54
the, the questions? Do you,
10:57
you know, speak from the pulpit about this
11:00
stuff?
11:02
>> Larry: Yeah, so I, I,
11:03
um, I think about
11:06
my political conversations in terms of three
11:09
dimensions. Okay. So the first dimension is what I
11:12
speak to people privately, uh, just
11:14
with friends, trusted individuals. Um,
11:17
and in those contexts, I share the most about my
11:20
personal political opinions. And then there is what,
11:23
um, I might share in a public platform,
11:26
in a podcast like this, or on social
11:28
media. And then there's what I would. And I would
11:31
share less, I would still share, but I'll share less.
11:34
And then there's what I would share when I'm preaching a sermon, when
11:37
I am in a specific position, when I'm representing
11:40
the church or the views of the church from a pulpit, then
11:43
I share even less about my political views. And so I think it's
11:46
helpful to, um, have a little bit of a
11:49
framework like that where,
11:51
um, you're intentional about what content you're
11:54
sharing and in what, uh, platform.
11:57
Right. And so I do share,
11:59
um. So I grew up in a very apolitical church. It was
12:02
culturally conservative, but we never commented on
12:05
politics. And it was only in
12:07
adulthood, um, moving to Baltimore,
12:10
I started to meet pastors who were
12:13
more outspoken politically. And also that's
12:16
when I just started to read more broadly
12:19
about church history and just learn about the
12:22
influence the church has had. When it came to
12:26
the, uh, abolition movement in the British
12:28
Empire or with civil rights here in the US
12:31
I would just read about pastors. They would talk about
12:34
political issues from the pulpit, um,
12:37
and just reading the Bible even, and just seeing how
12:40
often, uh,
12:43
prophets in the Bible would condemn secular governments
12:46
or John the Baptist would call out Herod for,
12:49
um, taking his brother's wife. And so I would see
12:52
examples like that. And I became more convicted of, like,
12:55
oh, even though I'm a pastor, even though I believe
12:58
technically in the separation of church and state, I do think there's a
13:00
A place to speak up. And so, uh, it was
13:03
maybe starting from about five, six years ago when I started
13:06
to be a little bit more vocal.
13:08
Um, but I never, I never
13:11
endorse candidates and I never endorse parties.
13:14
I always, I stopped short of that. But I
13:16
do speak up, uh, when uh, I feel
13:19
like there are the gospel pertains to the
13:22
current issues at hand, you know.
13:25
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, that makes sense. So like, how have you been
13:28
speaking up in this
13:30
context?
13:32
>> Larry: Oh yeah. Uh, so we did a sermon
13:35
series, um, uh, in the
13:38
spring leading up to this and
13:40
it was about six weeks, six, seven weeks long,
13:43
called, um, the Way of Jesus in Civic
13:46
Engagement. And we just talked about,
13:49
um, what it means to have
13:51
our primary allegiance be Jesus as opposed
13:54
to, he is our Lord as opposed to any political
13:57
leader. We talked about loving our enemies. Uh, we
14:00
talked about, um, submitting to governing
14:03
authorities, but we also talked about when is there a
14:06
scenario when you should speak up and uh, not
14:09
submit to governing authorities. Because we also see examples of that
14:12
in the Bible as well. And so, yeah, we just talked about a lot
14:15
of these nuanced issues. Uh,
14:17
and I feel like a lot of, um, maybe you
14:20
can think about it this way. A lot of times when
14:23
events happen, it's um,
14:26
uh, the time to speak up has
14:29
passed, you know, Uh, I think
14:31
the, I mean you should still speak up, but it's almost too late to
14:34
speak up, um, because
14:38
uh, the
14:41
people respond to current events because they
14:44
are formed in a certain way. And unless, uh,
14:47
you have a culture, uh, of forming
14:49
theologically, spiritually forming your church
14:52
so that there would be people of peace, so that there would be people free
14:55
from anxiety, so that there would be people who would put Jesus first. You
14:58
know, unless you do that from the get go, then when current
15:01
events happen, I mean they are going to be angry
15:03
and they are going to, you know, hate uh,
15:06
people and they are going to maybe think about violence
15:09
and think about canceling people out. And
15:12
so when the current events happen, you know,
15:15
emotions are so hot, people aren't a lot of people, they're not ready
15:18
to hear things, you know. So I think a lot of the work
15:21
happens before, you know, in the years before
15:24
any, uh, given event, so that they have
15:27
the spiritual disciplines in place, the practices in place, to
15:30
actually be people of peace rather than act out in
15:33
some dangerous way, you know.
15:35
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, so a lot of forethought went
15:37
into that series
15:40
earlier in the year, if that makes sense.
15:42
>> Larry: Yeah. And it wasn't just that, you know, we had a panel
15:45
discussion where we talked about politics. Ah, another. At
15:48
another event. Um, um,
15:51
I, um, there was, we
15:54
had a prayer event in regards to Israel and Gaza. Um,
15:57
and so you know, we, we try to. This is something,
16:00
uh, it's isn't in a regular diet. You can sort of
16:03
think of it that way. You know, we have a, we regularly take
16:06
these vitamins, these spiritual vitamins on these different
16:09
topics so that when events happen, you know, we're
16:12
um, ready, you know.
16:15
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I like that. Spiritual vitamins.
16:18
Loren, where are you
16:20
experiencing people's emotions at
16:23
right now in the spaces that you're moving in?
16:26
I think sometimes people's emotions come
16:29
out in strange ways when they're running
16:32
high. You know, different, uh, things get
16:34
projected and so on. What are you seeing?
16:38
>> Loren: I mean, I think it's interesting because
16:41
I'm in my primary
16:43
context working with people who are most
16:46
likely to be negatively affected
16:49
by the incoming
16:52
administration, working in affordable uh, housing, low
16:55
income housing with seniors.
16:58
I mean it's
17:01
interesting. I'm curious really
17:04
to how folks
17:07
work has been really busy of late because of broader
17:10
context, broader things. And
17:13
I really haven't had a chance to really engage with
17:16
folks as much as I would like. Especially some of
17:19
the folks who uh, you know, I'm thinking about
17:22
because I think in my building there are folks who, I'm not sure if
17:25
they are citizens or if
17:28
the whole family is citizen. And I
17:31
know there's been threats about removing folks from affordable, uh,
17:34
housing, government funded affordable housing
17:37
if any member of the family is not a
17:40
citizen. And I'm
17:43
also reminded that
17:47
um, I'm also
17:50
reminded that there's
17:53
people in the affordable
17:55
housing complex who I know are Trump supporters.
17:59
Uh, and I've had to really, the day after the election,
18:02
you know, really had to smile and, and
18:05
focus my kindness despite what I felt about
18:08
the outcomes.
18:10
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right. I've,
18:12
um, I,
18:16
as I have said, read some here. I had
18:19
a lot of questions about how
18:22
American politics and the church get
18:25
intertwined. Um, it is vastly
18:28
different from the expectations in
18:30
Canada where um, you know, speaking
18:33
out about your religious views or
18:36
affiliation can um, be
18:38
damaging to political uh,
18:41
campaigns rather than
18:43
advantageous. Um, so I've
18:46
really like tried to
18:49
listen carefully
18:51
to what the
18:54
rationale is between
18:56
um, supporting Donald
18:59
Trump and being a Christian,
19:02
uh, because there is a very strong
19:04
connection between those two in American politics.
19:07
And what I keep hearing is that,
19:10
you know, from kind of
19:13
Christian influencers, I guess, uh,
19:16
especially in the more like evangelical
19:19
tradition is that they're not claiming that
19:21
he's a good person, but that he stands for
19:24
policies that
19:27
they stand for as Christians. Now,
19:30
I feel like that doesn't
19:33
necessarily clarify anything for me because
19:35
I don't really understand how
19:38
deporting millions of people and
19:40
abusing women and expressing
19:43
admiration for Nazism,
19:46
um, how those could be
19:49
things that Christians,
19:52
uh, support or, you
19:55
know, that they. That they think somebody could
19:58
support, um, and. And
20:01
represent them. But,
20:03
Larry, I want to start with you. I am getting to
20:06
a question here. Um, as I kind of talk
20:09
through some of my
20:12
baffle, Bafflement about all of this that's been
20:15
going on, you have done
20:17
work in training Christians to be
20:20
peacemakers. So, like, how you
20:23
manage that line between,
20:26
like, loving and listening to our neighbors,
20:29
especially those we disagree with, but
20:32
also, like,
20:35
needing to be an outspoken voice
20:37
against policies that really harm.
20:43
>> Larry: Yeah. Um, and so, yeah,
20:46
just give you a little bit of background. So during the pandemic, I stepped down from being
20:49
a pastor, uh, for a little bit. Part of it was,
20:52
um, I was in a state of theological
20:55
transition, and I was exploring where I stood on some things. But
20:58
also I just needed a break from ministry. So I. I worked for this
21:00
organization they call the One America Movement, and
21:03
they're nonpartisan, they're a nonprofit, and
21:06
they train clergy on how to be peacemakers.
21:09
And so I just did that for about two years.
21:12
But it was really valuable experience, and I
21:15
learned a lot. Um, a lot of what we did was we tried to
21:18
integrate social psychology, research,
21:21
things like, why does misinformation
21:23
happen? And, uh, why do echo chambers
21:26
happen? And, uh, uh, things like that
21:29
with biblical principles.
21:31
Um, so the organization as a whole, they work
21:34
with people from different religious backgrounds, but I specifically work
21:37
with evangelicals because that was my background.
21:40
And, um,
21:43
uh, I mean, I think there's a lot of different things
21:46
we can talk about. Um, uh, one thing that's
21:49
sort of fascinating is, uh, I don't think the
21:52
average church, um, talks about
21:55
politics. And so I think sometimes on the news,
21:58
when we. When we read about. When we hear about, um,
22:01
the link between the Republican Party and the
22:04
Republican. I mean, the Republican Party and the church or the
22:06
evangelical church, you know, it seems we might get the
22:09
impression, uh, as an outsider, that every single
22:12
evangelical church is supporting Trump, but that's absolutely not
22:15
the case. In
22:18
my work, I often encountered a lot of
22:21
pastors who,
22:23
uh, they. Well, some of them
22:25
weren't Trump supporters at all. They didn't like Trump.
22:29
But, uh, even those who did vote for Trump, most of
22:32
them I found, were, I would consider reluctant Trump
22:34
supporters. Um, and most of these people,
22:37
they didn't talk about it from the pulpit. And a lot of times
22:40
these folks that would come to our events and they would
22:43
say, like, I'm bewildered why so many people in my
22:46
church are voting for Trump and are in love with Trump, because
22:49
I'm certainly not like that. And so the message
22:52
we got, you know, it's not that you had a
22:55
few charismatic leaders who were Trump supporters firing up the masses to
22:58
vote for Trump. It seemed like a lot of the people we were
23:01
working with, um, they were concerned
23:04
that their masses were
23:07
almost worshiping Trump and they didn't know what to do about
23:10
that. So, um, that's
23:13
one dynamic to be aware of. Another thing I think that's important to point
23:16
out is, um, the term
23:19
evangelical has changed a lot over the years.
23:22
And, uh, there's a very interesting study put, uh,
23:25
together by Ligonier ministries, that was R.C.
23:27
sproul's ministry. They did a survey a few years
23:30
back where they basically pulled self identified
23:33
evangelicals on different beliefs. And
23:36
they found that a significant number of people who are self
23:39
identified evangelicals, they don't even believe
23:42
that Jesus is the son of God. And there
23:44
are some basic core Christian tenets they don't
23:47
believe. But, uh, but they would have
23:51
that homosexuality, sin and is sin and abortion
23:53
is wrong and things like that. And so I think the term
23:56
evangelical has shifted such that a lot of folks, they
23:59
would identify as evangelical,
24:02
even though, like, in my book, I wouldn't even consider them
24:04
Christians.
24:05
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right, okay, that's really interesting.
24:08
>> Larry: It's become a political label. So I think that's a, uh, a
24:11
political label.
24:12
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, that's, that is really
24:15
insightful and, and frankly, like kind
24:18
of anecdotally, that tracks with
24:21
people that I've interviewed for this podcast who
24:24
identify as evangelical leaders
24:26
who have pretty explicitly,
24:30
um, said that they don't support Trump either
24:33
on the podcast or in conversation behind the
24:36
scenes. So, yeah, I think it
24:39
is really helpful just to name
24:42
that evangelical, um,
24:45
Christian. Right. That does get,
24:47
uh, pun intended,
24:50
trumped up in the media
24:52
as, um, this
24:55
cohesive block is
24:57
actually a lot more
24:59
mixed. I think that's super
25:02
important.
25:03
>> Larry: Um, I mean, it is true there are very
25:06
many prominent evangelical leaders who are
25:09
Trump supporters, but just to your point, it's not
25:12
a cohesive block. I think there is a pretty big divide, for
25:14
example, between urban evangelicals, non
25:17
urban evangelicals. I think there's also a pretty big
25:20
divide between, uh, white
25:23
evangelicals and non white evangelicals. And so
25:26
I think there's A lot of, um, and also I would say
25:29
Southern evangelicals and non Southern
25:32
evangelicals. And so there's a,
25:35
none of these are hard and fast lines. But
25:37
I've also been bewildered just because I'm
25:40
in a space where I interact with a lot of
25:43
evangelicals. And um, I'm personally on the fence
25:46
about whether to identify as an evangelical. But a lot
25:49
of my circles, they identify as evangelicals. And most
25:52
people I know here in Baltimore, they're not
25:55
Trump supporters or I know a handful of reluctant Trump
25:58
supporters. Um,
26:00
but I'm only, you know, I'm not
26:03
representative of all evangelicals too. My experiences are limited and
26:06
biased as well.
26:07
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right, yeah. Dennis, how
26:10
about you? I mean you referred
26:13
initially to that uh, call to
26:16
prayer and to pray for the
26:18
newly elected president. Um, are there
26:21
other strategies that you would
26:24
weigh in with here about how,
26:27
how we navigate difficult, uh,
26:30
conversations in our congregations, how
26:33
we love and listen to people that we
26:36
disagree with?
26:39
>> Dennis: Yeah, I think one of the things that I have been thinking
26:42
about a lot, and I thought about a lot actually
26:45
since the first Trump administration
26:49
really is the role of class in
26:52
American society,
26:54
um, in that we don't really talk
26:57
about it as much. Um,
26:59
and that's even very true within
27:02
the church. Um, my
27:05
context that ah, for people is that
27:08
I, um, grew up in. My
27:11
hometown is Flint, Michigan, which is,
27:14
um, for people who, um, don't know, it's
27:17
pretty much it was the birthplace. General Motors was very much
27:20
a, ah, auto town. Both of my
27:23
parents were um, worked into plants.
27:26
So I kind of come from that working class
27:28
background and always think a
27:31
lot about places like Flint or
27:34
Youngstown or other places that have,
27:37
because of changes in the economy, been left behind.
27:41
And those, um,
27:44
are some of the places actually where
27:47
Trump's, uh, message actually has
27:50
been picked up.
27:52
Um, and if we look
27:55
at the results from the election,
27:58
it's interesting that a lot of the working
28:01
class states, especially the so called blue
28:04
wall states of Michigan, um,
28:06
Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, which have a lot of working class
28:09
or blue collar people, um,
28:12
all shifted, um,
28:14
red towards uh, Trump. And
28:17
so one of the things that I want to talk about,
28:20
and it's not that I don't think that some of the issues like with
28:23
evangelical influencers or
28:26
misinformation, um, aren't issues. But I think
28:29
one of the reasons that Trump
28:32
is such a kind of dominant
28:35
force in American society is, is because
28:38
of a pro, is I think because of some
28:41
issues involving class and
28:43
involving the working class. And so my question
28:46
always has been where is the church in all of this.
28:49
And, um, in my
28:51
church primarily, it's mostly people who
28:54
are professionals and doing
28:58
okay. Um, and
29:00
so. And that's not a knock against
29:03
them or anything. That's just the context that I'm
29:06
preaching in and that a lot of my colleagues
29:09
are in. But a lot of the people
29:12
who I think voted for
29:15
Trump, who may, um, may come from backgrounds
29:18
where there isn't a strong religious background and
29:20
where. How does the church reach out to that? How does
29:23
the church
29:26
really include, and I think listen
29:29
to folk who are,
29:32
um, in the working
29:35
class and are dealing with things that kind
29:38
of the uncertainty of
29:40
employment and things, um, to that
29:43
extent. And I think that that's
29:46
one of the things that I think is a strategy that the church
29:49
needs to do in this time.
29:52
Um, and there are times to speak up
29:55
and, um, I also need to kind of state. I've
29:57
never been a Trump supporter, but I've
30:00
also wanted to listen to why
30:03
people voted the way they did. And so I
30:06
think that's actually one of the
30:08
skills that we need to do is to listen is. Is to
30:11
find ways and maybe to find ways of
30:14
listening to people who might have voted that way,
30:17
um, and why, um, that
30:20
they did and to have that sense of
30:22
curiosity, um, and
30:25
to try to figure that out and then to find
30:28
ways of supporting them.
30:30
Um, because I think when you
30:33
end up with things like populism, it's usually
30:36
because something in society
30:39
isn't working. Um, people aren't
30:42
feeling. Listen, um, policies aren't
30:45
really supporting them. So how do we
30:48
listen to them and support them
30:51
with policies that will help them? And so
30:54
that's. I think that's gotta be one of the strategies for churches
30:57
moving forward, is to actually listen, especially to
30:59
people who voted for Trump, um, and
31:02
listen to them and really listen not simply
31:05
to provide an answer, not to, to,
31:08
um, just kind of,
31:10
um, try to
31:14
offer excuses, but to. To really listen to them and
31:16
then see where we can work
31:19
together, um, and where God can lead us.
31:22
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think that's really, uh, important that
31:25
listening rather than scapegoating
31:27
or kind, um, of making assumptions. Larry,
31:30
you look like you wanted to.
31:32
>> Larry: Yeah, I just want to echo that. Uh, I think that was a
31:35
great point, Dennis. Um, the,
31:38
uh. I don't. I think a
31:41
lot of folks in the political world and in
31:44
the religious world were caught off guard by Trump. And I think it just goes
31:47
to show how, uh,
31:50
how little they misunderstood society.
31:52
And, um. And a lot
31:55
of times when, just like Dennis was saying, when a
31:58
charismatic leader comes around and has mass appeal.
32:01
I think it's because people were craving something
32:04
that, uh, they couldn't find in
32:07
any of the other political candidates or any other thing else in society.
32:10
And I think that speaks
32:13
volumes about the state of our country and the state of the
32:15
church. So, for example, so I think sometimes on the
32:18
left, so I lean left and so I hang out with
32:21
left people a lot. And,
32:24
uh, sometimes people just say like, oh, I'm so
32:27
bummed. It was so shocking to discover that half of our
32:30
country was racist or half of our country was sexist or something like
32:32
that. And I think that's overly simplistic to say something like
32:35
that. And I don't agree with that
32:38
assessment. I think when you say that, you're just
32:40
assuming, like all these people voted against
32:43
me because they're racist and sexist, uh,
32:46
and you're undermining some of the legitimate reasons they
32:49
might have had to vote the way they did. For example, the
32:52
economy. The economy is not
32:54
a, when you're voting in, the economy is your number one
32:57
issue. That doesn't mean you're a racist or a sexist or something.
33:01
It just means you were
33:04
stuck in a financial rut or you were
33:06
going to get by. And no other solution
33:09
seemed, no other candidate seemed to be giving you a narrative that made
33:12
sense. But this candidate was.
33:16
I think that's really what it comes down to is
33:18
Trump has been able to market himself
33:22
as a way to, he gives narratives to people
33:25
who are looking for a narrative. Um, and maybe
33:28
that narrative is like, oh, you know, the immigrants are
33:31
taking our lands. Or maybe that immigrant. And that the narrative
33:34
is, you know, men, uh,
33:37
can't, uh, do anything in society anymore. Whatever that narrative is. He's
33:40
selling them a narrative and it's working.
33:43
And, um, but I think I would want to say the
33:46
church also has a narrative which is the gospel. And so how
33:49
can the meet people where they're at, you
33:51
know, and what would be a vision of a gospel
33:54
centered, you know, how can you be a gospel centered man?
33:57
What would manhood look like in light of the gospel?
34:00
Or what would, um, serving the poor look like in
34:03
light of the gospel? And I think the church can also deliver, I
34:06
would say, a more accurate narrative and
34:09
compel people that way so that people don't have to go around looking
34:12
for, you know, other narratives
34:15
that can be dangerous.
34:17
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, Loren, I'd love to hear from
34:19
you. Um, as we're kind of
34:23
talking through this
34:25
polarization and, um,
34:28
perhaps the Christian call and
34:30
response.
34:32
>> Loren: Yeah, I really Appreciate what Larry and Dennis have both brought
34:35
to the conversation. I'm reminded
34:38
of my own work in church leadership,
34:42
especially when I was leading a new church start, something that
34:45
I really tried to emphasize. I don't think it
34:48
really resonated
34:50
with denominational leaders or
34:53
other folks in similar contexts. To me
34:56
was my focus was really saying,
34:59
like, to my prospects, so
35:02
to speak, or to the folks who weren't really
35:04
engaged, but was to say, like, I hear you when
35:07
you say you're struggling to pay your mortgage. I hear
35:10
you when you're, when you're struggling with your kids,
35:13
I hear you when,
35:15
um, you know, work is tough, like, I hear
35:18
you.
35:18
>> Loren: I want to hear you not to.
35:19
>> Loren: Say that you shouldn't care about, you
35:22
know, immigration and the very real
35:25
struggles people are facing to come here. Like, why
35:28
would they risk their lives to come here? Like, not that we shouldn't care
35:31
about those issues, but when people don't
35:34
feel heard, when people don't feel like we're hearing them
35:36
about their real struggles to pay their bills and
35:39
to provide for their family and care for their children,
35:42
like, when they don't feel heard,
35:45
like, uh, I'm just thinking, like, last
35:48
night I went and bought eggs. And
35:51
you know, eggs has been one of those social media things like, oh, the
35:53
cost of eggs, right, is so expensive.
35:56
And like, Colorado, I didn't even know this and I
35:59
just like heard this on the news and then saw it in the store.
36:02
Colorado just passed a law, like, only
36:05
allowing cage free eggs. And I just thought, like, how
36:08
preposterous is this? Like, we're in a
36:11
context nationally where people are
36:13
fretting about the costs. And I think rightfully so, like,
36:16
Colorado is an insanely expensive place to live.
36:19
And here the blue leaders, the
36:22
Democratic leaders have said, like, hey, we need to make
36:25
eggs even more expensive. And again, I don't want to
36:27
dismiss, whatever, like,
36:31
there are some issues with factory farming, blah, blah,
36:33
blah. But
36:36
not hearing, not listening to people when they say, hey, the
36:39
cost of eggs, the cost of food is a very real challenge.
36:42
I think that's a, I mean,
36:45
that's a huge problem. I think folks just aren't listening.
36:48
And again, we could run, um, this
36:50
conversation because I'm reminded of the
36:53
data from Ryan Burge and just in my own church
36:56
context, how folks who tend to go to mainline churches tend
36:59
to be upper class and well
37:02
educated and they're just that. So I don't want
37:05
to take over the conversation, but I would kind of echo
37:08
what Larry and Dennis have said
37:10
there.
37:12
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I Mean, certainly in our Canadian
37:15
context, like the
37:18
political commentators that I listen
37:20
to really, um, stress
37:23
that, um, there is a
37:26
big, um, wake up call for all of
37:29
us who might lean liberal,
37:32
um, to, or kind of the more or
37:34
less end of the political spectrum
37:37
to take seriously what is being
37:40
communicated here, which is that people feel
37:43
left behind and that they. That they
37:46
feel left out. And I think what all of you are
37:49
saying is that like, the
37:51
Christian gospel has always had a lot to
37:54
say to those who feel like they live on the
37:57
margins. And um, I
38:00
like that, um,
38:02
being a really dominant
38:05
response from us in terms of
38:08
how we are called back to,
38:12
um, that need to speak
38:14
to people's sense of alienation
38:17
and um, struggle.
38:21
Um, I'm curious,
38:24
like, I, I'm hearing all of you
38:27
express just a ton of,
38:30
uh, charity and
38:33
Christian, um, neighborliness towards those who
38:36
disagree with you. Do
38:39
you feel like,
38:42
targeted or not listened to by
38:45
those who disagree with you? Like, do
38:48
you, do you feel like
38:50
you're kind of. Are there things that you
38:53
wish people who disagree with you
38:56
would understand about your
38:59
position?
39:08
>> Larry: Um, I mean, I'll start off one. The one thing that
39:11
we, um, talked about when I was with the One America movement is,
39:14
um, the importance of the
39:17
messenger in, in
39:18
um, uh, in
39:21
communicating things. Because the reality
39:24
is some people, they just won't listen to you, you know, if you're the wrong
39:27
messenger. And um, and,
39:30
you know, I like to think about it and you know, if you just imagine
39:33
a spectrum from 0 to 10, and this can apply
39:36
to any topic, but let's just, you know, let's say
39:38
someone who is a zero is like a hardcore
39:41
comma supporter, and someone who's a 10 is a hardcore Trump supporter.
39:44
Right? And like, it's very
39:47
hard for someone who's at a zero to talk to
39:49
someone who's at a 10. They just. There's no very little common
39:52
ground. But what someone who is a zero
39:55
can do can talk to someone who's maybe a three or four, and maybe
39:58
that person can talk to someone who's like a 6 or 7, and
40:01
that person can talk to someone who's a 10. And so I think,
40:04
I think about that framework a lot. Just
40:06
understanding
40:10
in my, uh, context, given my
40:12
influences, given who I am, given the, you know,
40:15
the labels I wear or whatever,
40:18
only certain people will listen to me. Certain, you know, people who are
40:21
exactly like me and people to the left of me a little bit, people to
40:24
the right of me a little bit. But like, if you go any more
40:27
than that, they are probably the wrong messenger, you
40:30
know. And, um. And
40:33
so I'm just making. I'm just trying to make a difference
40:36
among the people who are in my
40:39
concentric, uh, circle, if you will, my sphere of
40:42
influence and, um,
40:44
just let the global church take care of
40:47
the rest. And I think that's something I think about,
40:50
is there are some people who are
40:53
hardcore. They're buying every conspiracy
40:56
theory under the sun and
40:59
there's hardcore right or far left or far right.
41:01
And um, they probably
41:04
won't listen to me, but if I could.
41:07
And that's why someone, you know, that's. That's why someone
41:10
who I would, you know, consider like, like a never Trumper
41:13
Republican would have. Would probably
41:16
do, you know, uh,
41:18
would probably, um, be
41:21
more listened to by a Republican than in, like a never
41:24
Trumper Democrat, you know. So I think,
41:27
uh. I think a lot of what I try to do
41:30
is just communicate to the people I think
41:33
would hear and hopefully inspire some of them
41:36
to communicate to the people who wouldn't hear who
41:39
listened to me, you know?
41:41
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Okay.
41:44
Loren or, uh, Dennis.
41:49
Do you find that,
41:50
um, things are as,
41:54
um. Like how broken
41:57
is American conversation right now? Like, do
42:00
you find that you're able to kind of make
42:03
those connections and talk to people outside
42:06
of your sphere? Or like,
42:08
is. Are the divides as kind
42:11
of painful and hard and fast as
42:14
they seem?
42:16
Um, in like, social media spaces?
42:19
And to me as an outsider,
42:22
I.
42:23
>> Dennis: Think in social media spaces, yeah, pretty
42:25
broken. Um, it's.
42:28
People are pretty much set in how they believe and what
42:31
they believe, um, regardless of
42:33
where they stand. Um,
42:36
I mean, I don't know how many memes I've seen,
42:41
um, where people are making fun of the other
42:44
side. And I see this from
42:46
pastors too. Um, and so
42:49
it's pretty broken. I
42:52
think, though, in
42:56
other parts of society it may not be
42:59
as broken.
43:00
Um, but I think
43:03
the question is, do we have spaces and
43:06
places where we can,
43:08
um, come together
43:11
and maybe not be the
43:14
focus, not be politics, um, but
43:17
something else that brings us together?
43:20
Um, the problem is that I just don't see
43:23
a huge amount of those spaces out there.
43:26
Um, and I think it is even hard,
43:29
um, because I find
43:32
myself in some spaces where
43:35
it's hard to talk about something if you disagree
43:38
on an issue, um, because we're so set
43:41
in this is the way that things are.
43:43
And um, if you have a differing
43:46
view, I, you know, don't want to
43:49
talk to you or it's more. I just don't understand
43:52
you. And. And so it's It's. I think
43:55
discussion is really hard,
43:57
um, because in so many ways we've built
44:00
up all of these defenses
44:02
and have really
44:05
become acclimated to the belief that the other
44:08
side is not simply
44:11
mistaken. Um, but I think
44:14
evil in some ways. And so, you
44:17
know, again, I don't know how many times I've even
44:19
read things where people have
44:22
said, you don't need to have. You can break off
44:25
relationships with people, um, who disagree with you,
44:28
and that. That's not a problem.
44:31
And I always kind of look at that and think,
44:34
well, that's not very Christian. Um, that's not very
44:37
much like Jesus. I don't think that's the whole loving
44:40
your enemy.
44:41
Um, but I think it
44:44
comes to when we put
44:47
politics above everything else, when it becomes an idol,
44:51
um, instead of
44:54
seeing, um, it. And, and being that
44:57
as Christians that we are called to, to love one
45:00
another, um, and.
45:03
And not just kind of make politics our.
45:06
Our number one thing is.
45:09
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean,
45:13
the church is one of those spaces, right?
45:15
Like, the church is one of those embodied spaces.
45:18
There is a big difference, and this is being detailed
45:21
time and time again between
45:25
saying something online and having to
45:27
actually look somebody in the eye
45:30
and say it to their face.
45:33
And that embodied,
45:36
um, community and embodied conversation, I
45:39
think inherently makes a
45:41
difference in how people speak to
45:44
one another and how people
45:46
navigate difference.
45:49
Um, and,
45:52
you know, so I appreciate,
45:55
um, Dennis, you're talking
45:57
about, about prayer and
46:00
centering prayer through these, like,
46:03
challenging times. And Larry, I appreciate, like, the FL
46:06
Forethought of grounding people
46:09
in constructive conversations months in
46:12
advance of a contentious election
46:15
so that you have, uh, those
46:17
vitamin stores to be able to have
46:20
difficult conversations in productive
46:23
ways. Um,
46:25
Loren, uh, what are
46:28
you seeing and
46:30
hearing about brokenness and
46:33
difficult conversations and where they're happening
46:36
and how they're happening. Well,
46:40
or if they're.
46:40
>> Loren: I mean, I don't know if they are happening. I don't know if
46:43
they are happening. I think a. And
46:46
I think that's unfortunate.
46:49
Um, I want to give a shout out to one of
46:51
the leaders and podcasters
46:54
and Methodist Pastor Jack Shitama, who's
46:57
been producing a lot of good content on this
47:01
and the importance of. He comes from a
47:04
family systems theory framework
47:07
to talk about how to have conversations, especially
47:10
with contentious conversations that may come up
47:13
again as we're recording this in America around the
47:16
Thanksgiving dinner table. So I think, A.
47:19
I don't think there are happening, which I think is
47:22
unfortunate because I think kind of what we talked
47:25
about, it's Important that they do happen for change to take
47:28
place. And
47:31
I think there's kind of two dynamics, and it may be way off base here,
47:33
but I think there's kind of like these two dynamics in America
47:36
where it's like we assume social media is
47:39
representative of how everyone feels about politics.
47:42
Like everyone feels like, super. And I was trying
47:45
to, I was trying to do this as we were talking. I can't find the
47:48
exact voter totals from 2020
47:51
versus 2024, but there is a decline
47:54
in voter turnout from the
47:56
presidential election. So I think that is interesting
47:59
that for several million
48:02
people, and I don't know what the exact numbers are, but
48:04
there's again, millions of people,
48:07
for whatever it's worth, made the
48:10
choice not to vote. So
48:14
I think that's a message in itself.
48:17
And for whatever reason they decided
48:21
it's not worth being a part of the conversation,
48:24
which again, I think is data in its
48:27
own right.
48:28
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, for sure. Okay, I have
48:31
um, two
48:34
more questions, um,
48:37
as we kind of wrap
48:40
up here. Um, and I
48:42
guess I feel like the two
48:45
are related to one another. But the first question is
48:49
like, where and when would it be
48:52
necessary to offer
48:55
resistance or civil
48:57
disobedience, um,
49:00
to an incoming president
49:03
when you see that people are being
49:06
harmed? As a Christian, so that's
49:08
kind of my first,
49:10
um, question.
49:13
Like, where's that line? And I think that's
49:16
a different thing than not loving our neighbors
49:19
or not listening to,
49:21
um, to what are what people
49:24
who voted differently from us have to say and
49:27
what's really going on. Like, I think that there
49:30
is still a question for us as
49:33
Christians when, when people are being
49:36
harmed by um, a political
49:39
leader, like, where is the place
49:41
of resistance?
49:47
>> Larry: Yeah, um, I think,
49:49
uh, this might
49:52
sound like a cop out answer, but I think the, I
49:55
think that answer depends on the individual.
49:58
I believe that, um, there are different types of Christian
50:01
leaders. And so some Christian leaders
50:03
are more like, they're more peacemaker kind of Christian
50:06
leaders. Some Christian leaders are more, you would
50:09
say, prophetic, like taking a stand kind of
50:12
Christian leaders. And
50:14
um, you know,
50:17
and I just think there's, I think
50:20
everybody has their own calling. And um, I
50:23
think there's there's probably a time, you know, Nazi Germany
50:26
is like the stereotypical example. When we look
50:29
back now, when we see that the majority of the German church,
50:32
you know, was quietly,
50:34
suddenly not getting in the way of Hitler,
50:37
then we look back now and say,
50:39
oh, that was wrong. That was not good.
50:42
The church was on the wrong side of history. The majority of the
50:45
Church. Uh, so I think there is a time and place
50:48
where even the peacemaking, bridge building
50:51
leaders, they need to get on board with uh,
50:53
taking a stand. But I think
50:56
there's a gray space where it's
50:59
um, where it's not
51:02
Nazi Germany, but it's also, you know,
51:05
but there's still some issues where I think during that space,
51:08
I think it's okay for some leaders who
51:11
feel called by God to take a stand. You know, I
51:14
think sometimes there's in the news, for example, there are
51:16
sanctuary churches, right, where they,
51:19
churches, you know what they say, like, even
51:22
though, for example,
51:25
you know, people who are, they don't have
51:27
homes, right, and they're not allowed to sleep on the streets, we're going to house
51:30
them in our church, or undocumented immigrants, they're going to be deported,
51:33
we're going to keep them in our churches. So there's churches like that who take a
51:36
stand, uh, to prevent things from happening.
51:39
And in some ways it's not too different from
51:42
what Rahab did, you know, when
51:44
uh, when her King of Jericho told
51:47
her to take the spies and she hid the spies, you know. So I
51:50
think, I think there is a biblical precedent for doing that if you
51:53
want to take a stand. But it's uh,
51:57
um, but it's, I think it's issue to issue
51:59
and it's, I think some,
52:02
you know, I think God lays on our hearts different
52:05
political issues to
52:07
um, to that we care
52:10
about. And so I don't, I would never prescribe to
52:13
like all Christian leaders. You got to do this, you
52:15
know.
52:16
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, I'm, I'm
52:19
interested in
52:22
um, Loren and Dennis, whether
52:24
either of you feel differently. Like is
52:27
there a line where it's, it becomes a
52:30
mandate like the Nazi
52:32
Germany?
52:33
Um, is
52:36
that's always, I think the example that we do turn
52:39
to as a historical precedent.
52:41
And I would wonder whether
52:44
like when we're talking about millions of people
52:47
being deported and losing their homes and being
52:49
separated from their families, like, is that a line
52:52
that becomes a mandate where like
52:55
millions of people are being harmed and Christians do
52:58
have to speak up, like,
53:00
uh,
53:02
what, what do others think?
53:06
>> Dennis: You know, I think
53:08
think about that, uh, about our, our current moment
53:11
and some of the issues that we're facing
53:14
is that it's
53:17
uh, I think on its extreme it's very clear,
53:20
but in its day to day it's also very
53:23
nuanced. And one of the
53:26
issues like immigration, I think
53:29
there is a lot of, can
53:32
make sense that our current
53:35
immigration policy here in the United States has Been in
53:38
some ways out of control. The. Not
53:41
been good at policing our borders.
53:44
Um, and so that, I think is a legitimate
53:47
issue to talk about and to
53:49
discuss. The question then
53:52
comes, what do we do about it?
53:58
And I'm not personally
54:00
opposed to that. There are some cases where deportation makes
54:03
sense. Does mass deportation make
54:06
sense? Maybe not.
54:08
And what if it means
54:13
deporting whole
54:15
families? Uh, or if it means people
54:18
who get caught up in the deportation who probably shouldn't have
54:21
been deported, then I
54:24
think those are times when the church does need
54:27
to speak up and does need to say something,
54:30
um, because it goes
54:33
from, I think, simply trying
54:35
to deal with an issue
54:38
or the law to, I think,
54:40
becoming abusive and becoming,
54:44
um, harming others. And so I think that
54:47
those are things that then where the church does need to
54:49
speak up. Um, another
54:52
issue that I think is similar to that, that is both
54:55
nuanced but also a time to
54:58
speak up could, um, be issues
55:01
dealing on transgender, um,
55:04
issues. Um, there are a lot of.
55:07
Of. Of, I think, honest questions
55:10
on the role of. Of trans women in sports
55:13
and all of that stuff that I think we do need to talk
55:16
about. Um, but
55:19
we also don't want to go to the. The. The place
55:22
where the state is,
55:23
um, determining
55:26
when you could. If you want to have
55:29
any type of surgery, um, even if you may.
55:32
I may think it might not be the best idea. I don't know
55:35
if I want the state to do that or even
55:38
just, you know, basic, basic rights.
55:41
And so those are cases where I think the,
55:44
um, church should speak up, should say
55:47
something. Um, but it
55:50
really. It's kind of knowing the difference
55:53
between those two, but understanding where the
55:55
nuance is, but also
55:58
where it. Where it crosses the line and then
56:01
where you have to say this is wrong and it's not
56:04
acceptable.
56:05
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I think what
56:08
I'm hearing from both of you that I appreciate so
56:11
much is that
56:13
prayerful discernment has to be part
56:16
of how we navigate
56:19
our way forward as Christians. Like, bottom line.
56:22
And, uh, whether we're talking about this incoming
56:25
administration or any other administration
56:28
for that matter, like, there is
56:31
that constant call to,
56:34
um, to be in conversation with
56:36
the. The needs of our neighbors and the world around
56:39
us, um, and
56:42
where the gospel calls us
56:45
to speak and act. Loren, do you want to weigh
56:48
in here?
56:50
>> Loren: Yeah, I'm just thinking about a previous
56:52
guest. Hopefully, um, I can get her name right.
56:54
Dorcas Chang Tozen, I think, who wrote a
56:57
book on social justice for the sensitive soul. Reminds me what
57:00
Larry was saying. She Made the point
57:03
that activism can be
57:06
pigeonholed to this kind of fiery,
57:08
really responsive act. And she made
57:12
the point that activism can really
57:14
be, uh, needs to be more broadly
57:17
thought of and for different kind of people who behave
57:20
in different ways and think differently. So I think,
57:23
uh, that comes to mind with what Larry said. And then two, I'm
57:26
often reminded, because I've thought about this. I work in
57:29
Aurora, Colorado, where Trump has promised
57:32
to start day one with actions. And I
57:35
thought, what is going to be my response
57:39
as someone who works in federal affordable
57:41
housing, if I see the National
57:44
Guard marching down the street, if
57:47
federal agents are coming to get someone m. Out of
57:50
the building, I've thought,
57:54
what is appropriate? I, uh, don't know. I'm
57:57
still wrestling with this. When I
58:00
think about, for my family, what
58:02
risks is responsible for me to take for my
58:05
family, for myself,
58:07
what's the right thing to do? I think it's.
58:12
I think it's really hard. It's
58:14
hard for me, at least. Uh, I think it's easy to.
58:17
It feels like on a philosophical level to say, like, this
58:20
is. We always got to stand up for
58:24
these things. I think a lot of
58:27
the ideas being bandied about are
58:29
very inhumane. But I'm also
58:32
wondering,
58:35
what does it look like on a real, real practical
58:38
level? Um, and then I think
58:41
on a more positive, like, what are things that I can
58:44
control? What can I control? And how can I make a difference in my
58:47
sphere?
58:49
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. I, uh,
58:52
think, um. I'm quite
58:55
taken with what you're describing, Loren.
58:58
That possibility of, like, the National
59:00
Guard walking down the street to get people
59:03
that, like, you know, and have
59:06
worked with. And what. What do you do? Like,
59:09
this is. These are moments, I think,
59:12
where the rubber hits the road for.
59:15
For us as discerning, prayerful
59:17
Christians.
59:18
>> Loren: Yeah. It's like, if they're. And I'm sorry to interrupt, but it's
59:21
like, you know, I thought about, Like, I've literally
59:24
thought about this. Like, do I stand in the doorway? Like, is
59:27
it worth getting me arrested? Like, if there's, you know, 10
59:29
agents, like, what is me gonna get
59:32
arrested, gonna stop the situation? And, uh, you know, this
59:35
is where I really wrestle with, you know,
59:38
like, is. Is me, like, potentially
59:41
losing my job, you know, getting
59:44
arrested? Uh, like, what are the
59:47
effects? I don't know. It's just. It's really hard, I think.
59:50
Um, and maybe. I don't
59:52
know.
59:55
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah.
59:57
So that's not
1:00:00
just, uh, an interesting philosophical conundrum,
1:00:03
is it?
1:00:04
>> Loren: Right. Right.
1:00:05
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. This is about like life and
1:00:08
livelihood and family and justice
1:00:11
and, um, like the core
1:00:13
of our Christian calling.
1:00:18
Recognizing that we're kind of not going to be able
1:00:21
to solve those
1:00:24
biggest conundrums right here in this podcast
1:00:27
space. And, and taking seriously
1:00:30
what you have all said about, um,
1:00:32
discernment and prayer being integral to
1:00:36
a way forward, um, I'd just like
1:00:39
to offer you each kind of final thoughts
1:00:41
on what you hope for
1:00:44
for Christian conversation and
1:00:47
what you hope for for Christian witness
1:00:50
in, uh, the coming four years.
1:00:54
Um.
1:00:57
Yeah. Who would like to go first? Dennis, you look like you
1:01:00
were going to jump in.
1:01:01
>> Dennis: I guess what I hope for is
1:01:06
again, ears, um, to
1:01:09
listen to what people have to say.
1:01:12
Um, and then
1:01:15
I think discernment,
1:01:18
to discern the times, discern the
1:01:21
actions. Um, I
1:01:24
think finally, and this is something I've
1:01:27
been trying to do more,
1:01:29
um, and actually I've kind of
1:01:32
picked this up, um, Martha, from
1:01:35
our. From the Anglican tradition of praying for our
1:01:38
leaders. And, um,
1:01:41
have learned to do that by name, and
1:01:44
that's not always easy, but I think it
1:01:47
is important, and I think that our
1:01:50
leaders, especially our president elect, needs
1:01:53
the prayers and so that we
1:01:55
will continue to just kind of pray and
1:01:58
pray that they can govern, um,
1:02:00
justly. And
1:02:04
that's, um, kind of where I'm at right now for the next few
1:02:06
years.
1:02:12
>> Larry: Um, yeah, I think my word would just be.
1:02:15
Don't be disengaged. I think there can be a
1:02:17
temptation,
1:02:18
um, uh, for Christians who
1:02:21
are frustrated with the political system or they just
1:02:24
feel like, oh, they're independent. For example, like Loren
1:02:27
said earlier, there's a rising number of independents in our country,
1:02:30
and they feel like, oh, neither party speaks for me
1:02:33
or, um, they don't want to get into
1:02:36
conflict with people, so they just don't want to talk about
1:02:39
politics. They don't want to rub people's feelings the wrong
1:02:41
way. And so they disengage. And,
1:02:44
um, I remember I listened to
1:02:46
a David, uh, French talk one time.
1:02:49
He's a New York Times columnist. He's never Trump
1:02:52
or conservative. And he was talking about the
1:02:55
meme, maybe you've seen it, of Homer Simpson. And
1:02:58
Homer Simpson comes out of the Bush, and then he
1:03:01
just quietly goes back into the Bush,
1:03:03
um, because, you know, he's like, oh, this is a
1:03:06
crazy scene. Let me just go back
1:03:09
this Bush where it's safe and I don't have to worry about what's
1:03:12
going on. And he was just making the case, like, a lot of Christians behave that way
1:03:15
when it comes to Paul. They Just they poke out,
1:03:18
you know, every now and then of the little hole and they look around,
1:03:21
they go, oh, you know, words are
1:03:24
nasty and people are angry. So let me just go
1:03:27
back to my little hole. And, uh. And I just don't think
1:03:30
that's how Christians ought to live. You know,
1:03:32
um, we, uh, are to be set apart from the world, but
1:03:35
we're not supposed to be cut off from the world. And I do
1:03:38
believe, uh, that we are supposed
1:03:41
to be like Jesus and, um, you know,
1:03:44
how he became flesh and dwelt among us. I feel like we
1:03:47
need to spend time with people around us.
1:03:51
I think especially that we are,
1:03:53
uh, you know, in the US at least. We are in a
1:03:56
democratic, uh, society.
1:03:59
I think it's different, you know, in, um, you
1:04:02
know, if in the Roman Empire, you know, submitting to
1:04:05
authorities, you know, you know, obviously we got to do that,
1:04:07
but, you know, they. There were no elected
1:04:10
leaders. But if we are in a democratic society, and
1:04:13
what that means functionally is that every single citizen
1:04:16
has political power. I think also the
1:04:19
issue of, like, are we, Are we being good
1:04:22
stewards of that political power, um, if we
1:04:25
have the power to influence the politics of our country
1:04:28
such that our neighbors are impacted, like, are we being good
1:04:31
stewards of that power? And so I don't think this is a
1:04:33
responsibility that we can just turn
1:04:36
over to the non Christians. I, uh, think this is
1:04:39
a responsibility that we need to, uh, engage in.
1:04:42
And so how
1:04:45
people engage looks different. It could be social media, it could
1:04:48
be writing letters to your
1:04:51
representatives. It could be going to political
1:04:53
events, and, you know, it could be donating
1:04:56
to certain candidates. I mean, there's all sorts of things you can do.
1:05:00
But, um, I,
1:05:02
um, uh. But I don't think
1:05:05
we should sit out just because, you know, things don't line up
1:05:08
with us or we don't like certain candidates or whatever.
1:05:11
I, uh, think all the more we need to be engaged.
1:05:14
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I really appreciate that call not
1:05:17
to disengage, because
1:05:20
I see it very much in the mainline
1:05:22
context in Canada is that, um,
1:05:25
sometimes there is a tendency to
1:05:28
equate that call to be
1:05:30
peacemakers,
1:05:32
um, with
1:05:34
essentially just an opting out of difficult
1:05:37
conversations altogether,
1:05:40
um, and kind of choosing a
1:05:43
surface politeness and niceness
1:05:46
that, um, that is
1:05:48
really just about not wanting
1:05:51
to, um, ruffle
1:05:55
anybody's feathers or
1:05:58
create, um, any ripples in the water.
1:06:01
Uh, so, yeah, being willing to engage
1:06:04
and like you say, in a whole variety
1:06:07
of ways, um, is
1:06:09
extremely important. Loren, do you want to offer
1:06:12
some final words as we
1:06:15
wrap up this conversation.
1:06:17
>> Loren: Yeah, I think what I've been thinking about a lot. And again, this is
1:06:20
to borrow from Jack Chitama,
1:06:24
who has talked a lot about
1:06:26
offering, uh, at least as I spin it, offering
1:06:29
a compelling vision, offering a compelling narrative.
1:06:32
I think there's not been enough
1:06:35
from the Democrats, from, I think
1:06:38
mainline, from my context in general,
1:06:40
enough too, of. I think people
1:06:43
can. There's so much of folks
1:06:46
saying what they're against, what they disagree with.
1:06:49
Offer me a compelling vision about why
1:06:53
your vision of America, vision of the church, vision of
1:06:56
whatever is a better way of living. And I think that
1:06:59
really will draw people,
1:07:02
even if we talk about something like immigration.
1:07:04
Offer a more compelling vision of why
1:07:07
welcoming neighbors is, uh,
1:07:11
good for everyone and how it leads to a
1:07:14
better future for our
1:07:17
society, for our country, for ourselves, uh,
1:07:20
for so many things. I think offering a more compelling
1:07:22
vision really, um, has a way
1:07:25
of. It is compelling. And I think, uh,
1:07:30
whether it's political parties, whether it's the church at uh,
1:07:33
large, I think would do well to speak
1:07:37
not as my way or the highway type approach, but say,
1:07:40
hey, I have a. And to speak on.
1:07:43
You know, Larry made this point too. Like, I believe the
1:07:46
gospel is a, uh, compelling vision. So let's talk about
1:07:49
like, here's a way of living, here's a way
1:07:52
of being in the world. Here's a way of following Jesus that offers a better way
1:07:54
of life for ourselves, for our neighbors, for our
1:07:57
country. So I'd love to see again, specifically for
1:08:00
the church, leaning into that
1:08:03
alternative, compelling vision.
1:08:05
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Thank you. Well, I want to say
1:08:08
thank you to all three of you, Loren, for
1:08:11
organizing this panel and
1:08:14
uh, being part of the insights offered here,
1:08:17
Larry and Dennis, for making the time
1:08:19
today. I feel like there are a number of things
1:08:22
that you've, um, said and shared
1:08:25
that help me for sure, as a Canadian
1:08:28
and an outsider, like, get beyond the
1:08:31
headlines and get beyond the social media
1:08:33
sphere and be able to hear more about
1:08:36
what's actually going on on the ground and
1:08:39
what you're sort of thinking about and
1:08:42
preparing for, um,
1:08:44
going forward in the political sphere as well
1:08:47
as how you're navigating them right now.
1:08:50
Thank you, um, to all three of
1:08:53
you. We always, uh,
1:08:56
end with a word of peace. And that seems
1:08:58
particularly apropos to
1:09:00
today's conversation and
1:09:03
uh, and the hope that has ultimately
1:09:06
been lifted up here. So may God's
1:09:09
peace be with each one of you. Loren, Larry and
1:09:11
Dennis also with you, with
1:09:14
you.
1:09:14
>> Larry: Appreciate.
1:09:22
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
1:09:25
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
1:09:28
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1:09:31
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