Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #065 Jason Flom with Kerry Porter

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#065 Jason Flom with Kerry Porter · Wrongful Conviction

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: I was brought up with cops are the good guys.
• 0:09
  Speaker 3: I didn't know what was going to happen, but I
• 0:11
  Speaker 3: do know that everything was stacked against me.
• 0:14
  Speaker 4: Everything like everything.
• 0:17
  Speaker 3: This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: with this. How is this possible?
• 0:28
  Speaker 4: I grew up trusting the systems. I've grew up believing
• 0:30
  Speaker 4: that every human being should do the right thing. And
• 0:33
  Speaker 4: that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with
• 0:35
  Speaker 4: corrough people, I wasn't going to breb anyone to get
• 0:38
  Speaker 4: me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the
• 0:40
  Speaker 4: fact that I break my way out of my wife's death.
• 0:44
  Speaker 4: I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I
• 0:47
  Speaker 4: prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: Our system. Since I've been out ten years, it's come
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: a little ways, but it's still broken.
• 0:56
  Speaker 4: I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to me.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: This is a wrongful conviction. Welcome back.
• 1:18
  Speaker 5: To Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm That's me, and today
• 1:22
  Speaker 5: we have an amazing guy. Carrie Porter is our guests
• 1:25
  Speaker 5: on the show. Carrie, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Jason, thank you very much for having me here.
• 1:30
  Speaker 5: Now, I got to tell you carry even though I've
• 1:32
  Speaker 5: been doing this kind of work for about twenty five years,
• 1:34
  Speaker 5: when I was I had to read your story several
• 1:36
  Speaker 5: times because he's got more twists and turns than a
• 1:39
  Speaker 5: John Grishall novel.
• 1:41
  Speaker 6: That's funny you say that because my child, judge Thomas
• 1:44
  Speaker 6: Wan is now Conwell attorney, and he said he mentioned
• 1:48
  Speaker 6: that my lawyer's motion were like a John Grissom's movie.
• 1:52
  Speaker 5: Okay, well, so, John, if you're listening very much in
• 1:56
  Speaker 5: the right, but your case has love trying, It has
• 2:00
  Speaker 5: mistaken witness identification, it has perjury, it has false accusations,
• 2:05
  Speaker 5: it has corruption at the highest levels, it has cover ups,
• 2:09
  Speaker 5: it has I mean, it's got so many factors that
• 2:12
  Speaker 5: you know and and you know, and then murders happening
• 2:16
  Speaker 5: left and right around that would have pointed arrows in
• 2:19
  Speaker 5: different directions. And you know, I mean insurance claims and
• 2:25
  Speaker 5: questions and like I mean it's really we're going to
• 2:28
  Speaker 5: try to unravel this for the audience.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: Today, so everyone's gonna have to really follow along because
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: this is crazy.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: Good luck if we do that. The only I still have, The.
• 2:38
  Speaker 5: Only thing I can promise is that there's a happy ending,
• 2:40
  Speaker 5: you know, because there is.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: Yes, there is first night.
• 2:44
  Speaker 7: A loibl man free from prison after fourteen years for
• 2:47
  Speaker 7: a crime he didn't commit. Terrry Porter has a new
• 2:50
  Speaker 7: look at life thanks to these seven works.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: Mister Porter did not commit this offense.
• 2:56
  Speaker 7: The Commonwealth's Attorney says Porter was wrongfully convicted for the
• 3:00
  Speaker 7: nineteen ninety six murder of Tyrone Camp. New information came
• 3:04
  Speaker 7: to light last year as part of a separate murder investigation.
• 3:08
  Speaker 7: A key witness, Francois Cunningham, said Porter was set up
• 3:11
  Speaker 7: for Camp's murder.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: And I've seen you.
• 3:15
  Speaker 5: It's amazing, and we're going to get right into the story.
• 3:17
  Speaker 5: But I've seen you speak on video, I saw you
• 3:20
  Speaker 5: do a press conference, and you know, you really have
• 3:23
  Speaker 5: a remarkable spirit, and you know, I know you've done
• 3:26
  Speaker 5: a lot of work trying to help prevent these things
• 3:30
  Speaker 5: from happening to other people, and you know, you have
• 3:33
  Speaker 5: all my respect for everything that you're doing.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: Thank you as you man.
• 3:37
  Speaker 5: Okay, well, so let's get right into it. So you're
• 3:40
  Speaker 5: from Louisville, Kentucky, grew up on the same street as
• 3:42
  Speaker 5: Muhammad Aldi.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Yes, soy fourth and Grand.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: And you actually got to meet the legend that one.
• 3:46
  Speaker 6: Oh yes, yes, Cagon actually, yes, the greatest, the greatest.
• 3:50
  Speaker 6: The first time was in the seventies when this job
• 3:52
  Speaker 6: was broke.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: Wow, amazing, what a story.
• 3:56
  Speaker 5: And so in the mid nineties, Well, what was Louisville
• 4:01
  Speaker 5: like at that time? Was it a particularly violent time
• 4:04
  Speaker 5: in Louisville.
• 4:05
  Speaker 6: Yes, I have the in ninety six that was the
• 4:09
  Speaker 6: first risese of the murder rate. I have the sixty
• 4:14
  Speaker 6: eight people got killed, and I have the last body
• 4:17
  Speaker 6: to Tyrone count whilst his life December to twenty seventh
• 4:20
  Speaker 6: or nineteen ninety six, and ironically they charged me with
• 4:24
  Speaker 6: the last body. But in May to June, the mayor
• 4:29
  Speaker 6: had to get on TV and assure the public that
• 4:33
  Speaker 6: these murder investigations would be immediately handled, expedingly and professionally
• 4:40
  Speaker 6: and everything else, and that assurance went out the door.
• 4:43
  Speaker 5: Well yeah, so what he was basically saying is we'll
• 4:45
  Speaker 5: get these solved, right, or wrong. Right, we're just gonna
• 4:48
  Speaker 5: get We're gonna make everybody feel comfortable, even though you
• 4:50
  Speaker 5: should feel very uncomfortable because a real killer might well
• 4:53
  Speaker 5: be out there.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: Well, politics has tales no better tal.
• 4:56
  Speaker 5: There you go, so solet's go. Let's go to this
• 5:00
  Speaker 5: crazy case.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 5:02
  Speaker 5: So the murder victim was a guy named Tyrone Camp, correct,
• 5:06
  Speaker 5: a thirty five year old man, And can you explain
• 5:09
  Speaker 5: the whole circumstance and how the connections led to you?
• 5:13
  Speaker 5: And there was a witness that wasn't sure then he was.
• 5:16
  Speaker 5: I mean, the whole thing is like, but you take
• 5:18
  Speaker 5: us back because you actually, unfortunately you lived through this,
• 5:20
  Speaker 5: right And like I always say to my guest, I'm
• 5:22
  Speaker 5: happier here, but I'm sorry you're here. Yeah anyway, But okay,
• 5:26
  Speaker 5: so let's go back to this murder in nineteen ninety
• 5:29
  Speaker 5: six of Tyrone Camp.
• 5:30
  Speaker 6: Tyrone Camp unfortunately ran across my little boy's mama, Cecilia Sanders.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: Well Sanders now, but then it was Cecilia Kirkpatrick.
• 5:41
  Speaker 6: We had been in a relationship for a rocky relationship
• 5:45
  Speaker 6: for nine years in which we had little carry at
• 5:49
  Speaker 6: the time that our leftlow carry because of Drew my
• 5:53
  Speaker 6: drug use.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: Little Carry was five years old.
• 5:56
  Speaker 6: So Tyrone Camp came along and he was a far
• 5:58
  Speaker 6: better man than I and I science over parental's rights,
• 6:02
  Speaker 6: and I think ninety three, I thought, because I did
• 6:05
  Speaker 6: time for child support, well, Tyrone was raising my son,
• 6:10
  Speaker 6: doing a real good job of it. What Kerry was
• 6:13
  Speaker 6: accustomed accustomed to was fishing and hunting, and Tyrone didn't
• 6:18
  Speaker 6: know how to do any of that. So he found
• 6:21
  Speaker 6: out how to do it and stuff and had little
• 6:23
  Speaker 6: Kerry up on his wings as if he was me,
• 6:27
  Speaker 6: despite him never doing that before in his life.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: So little Kerry got the love in him.
• 6:31
  Speaker 6: And on December to twenty seven, his little Kerry's mama's
• 6:36
  Speaker 6: involved in what appears that she is one of the
• 6:40
  Speaker 6: person did more than likely she's the person adventures in
• 6:44
  Speaker 6: the death of Tyrone Camp.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: And what was the motivation here? And who I mean?
• 6:49
  Speaker 5: Obviously it's still speculation because there hadn't been any real
• 6:52
  Speaker 5: not any real serious reinvestigation ever since you got out,
• 6:55
  Speaker 5: which is now several years ago, but which is a
• 6:59
  Speaker 5: very I mean, I saw your lawyer speaking very eloquently
• 7:01
  Speaker 5: and very powerfully on this topic. Yeah, and it's it's
• 7:05
  Speaker 5: a it's a heavy topic. But because like I said,
• 7:08
  Speaker 5: it involves cover ups and corruption at the highest levels.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: My goodness.
• 7:12
  Speaker 5: So what was the motivation and how did this because
• 7:15
  Speaker 5: it sounds like from everything you're saying this tyrone Camp
• 7:18
  Speaker 5: was a pretty good guy, but very good. There was
• 7:20
  Speaker 5: there was some insurance money involved, is that right?
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: Correct? Insurance money?
• 7:25
  Speaker 6: It's been rumored different things my investigation in the fifteen
• 7:29
  Speaker 6: years it took to get me out. Was it Cecilia
• 7:34
  Speaker 6: and her boyfriend Juan, the oldest Sanderu as the streets say,
• 7:39
  Speaker 6: scored up to anywhere from a half a million to
• 7:43
  Speaker 6: over a million dollars in insurance proceeds I do know,
• 7:46
  Speaker 6: and and did open records requests and manipulated the system
• 7:52
  Speaker 6: one we another and got a hold of records in
• 7:55
  Speaker 6: which I seen it. Four different agency paid your money.
• 8:01
  Speaker 5: So there was a witness to this crime, right, yes,
• 8:05
  Speaker 5: uh huh, because it happened in like a.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: Active transportation company, right in a lot, right?
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: And so was it at night six six thirty five.
• 8:14
  Speaker 6: In the mornings when he was pronounced dead, am am.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: So there would have been some daylight to work.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: With, not at six thirty five December.
• 8:23
  Speaker 6: The service is the shortest daylight time of the year,
• 8:28
  Speaker 6: so Urn the twenty first is the longest.
• 8:30
  Speaker 5: So that's an interesting one too, because of the fact
• 8:33
  Speaker 5: that this witness would not have.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: Been reliable regardless right in the dark.
• 8:37
  Speaker 5: But okay, and so the witness, Kenneth Brown Brown, he
• 8:42
  Speaker 5: changed his story a few times, is that right?
• 8:44
  Speaker 6: As Thomas Wyane said, And Thomas Wyne shouldn't let him
• 8:47
  Speaker 6: proceed to trial. He with old and he waffled, but
• 8:50
  Speaker 6: he foually. Family is a key word described Kerry Porter.
• 8:55
  Speaker 5: So on top of the arrows, that would seem I
• 8:59
  Speaker 5: mean again, if we're writing a movie script, you know,
• 9:01
  Speaker 5: you'd say, well, this looks a little too obvious because
• 9:04
  Speaker 5: you got the insurance money, right, you got this other
• 9:08
  Speaker 5: guy Sanders right, was involved with your ex yes, right,
• 9:15
  Speaker 5: So there's a pretty powerful narrative going on there how
• 9:21
  Speaker 5: they might have wanted him gone, although it's hard to
• 9:23
  Speaker 5: believe a mother's love, you know, and being that you
• 9:26
  Speaker 5: described him so eloquently as such a good father to
• 9:28
  Speaker 5: your son.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: One would think that that.
• 9:30
  Speaker 5: Maybe that would triumph over the greed. But greed is
• 9:34
  Speaker 5: a powerful thing, very powerful, and that's a lot of money, yes, so,
• 9:40
  Speaker 5: but even still the rest your arrest didn't happen right away,
• 9:48
  Speaker 5: probably because they didn't have a good reason to suspect you.
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: No, not, not not in the beginning at all.
• 9:54
  Speaker 5: No, right because there was you didn't stand to benefit
• 9:57
  Speaker 5: from this in any way.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: No, and you weren't elos of them.
• 10:00
  Speaker 5: From everything you're saying, You're actually happy that he was
• 10:02
  Speaker 5: filling the role that you at that time as a
• 10:04
  Speaker 5: young man. And I'm not here to judge. I mean,
• 10:06
  Speaker 5: I was how old were you at the time you
• 10:08
  Speaker 5: had your son?
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: At the time I heard Loil Kerry was twenty three.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: I was a late fablem so late in Kentucky.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: New York called that early.
• 10:16
  Speaker 5: But anyway, twenty three, I think a lot of people,
• 10:20
  Speaker 5: and a lot of people are listening probably can relate
• 10:22
  Speaker 5: to this. I think a lot of people at twenty
• 10:23
  Speaker 5: three are still trying to find themselves, much less take
• 10:25
  Speaker 5: care for another little being. I'm not saying that. I'm
• 10:29
  Speaker 5: not saying your behavior was great or rationalize it. But
• 10:31
  Speaker 5: at the same time, I'm not here to judge. So
• 10:33
  Speaker 5: the question becomes, they wouldn't have arrested you because it
• 10:37
  Speaker 5: didn't look like there was any real reason to There
• 10:39
  Speaker 5: was Additionally, nobody identifying you. And also there was no
• 10:42
  Speaker 5: again that the I mean crime investigation one oh one.
• 10:48
  Speaker 5: Anyone who watches TV would go, wait a minute, why
• 10:50
  Speaker 5: didn't they look at the people who had the motivation?
• 10:54
  Speaker 5: And that would have made more sense, especially because something
• 10:58
  Speaker 5: happened seven months later that have really put anybody onto
• 11:02
  Speaker 5: that trail. Very good, correct, yes, But by then they
• 11:05
  Speaker 5: had arrested you. And let's get to it because that
• 11:07
  Speaker 5: seven months is a very interesting twist in this.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: It's a key factor. It's a key factor, should have
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: been a key factor.
• 11:12
  Speaker 5: But it wasn't right, so it wasn't so they arrested you.
• 11:16
  Speaker 5: I mean, why do you think they did that?
• 11:19
  Speaker 6: And when they arrested me February to twenty, and their
• 11:22
  Speaker 6: alleged motive was that I was jealous that Tyrone Camp
• 11:26
  Speaker 6: had stole my girls as stated in the opening statement,
• 11:31
  Speaker 6: and that raising my kid. That was a motive for
• 11:33
  Speaker 6: trial that came about through Detective Kids Rodney Kidd's investigation.
• 11:39
  Speaker 6: That's supposed to have been that I had prior in
• 11:42
  Speaker 6: nineteen ninety one, I had trashed so Siia's apartment in
• 11:48
  Speaker 6: which me and me carry and Cecilia was supposed to
• 11:52
  Speaker 6: have been sharing an apartment, but Tyrone was coming over on
• 11:55
  Speaker 6: the weekends. So sal has been involved in several loved true,
• 12:00
  Speaker 6: she transferred from one guy that's just doing good to
• 12:04
  Speaker 6: a better guy that's doing greater, and that's her.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: That was her come up.
• 12:09
  Speaker 6: So that the commonwealth thought that I was the person
• 12:12
  Speaker 6: because of this ninety one trashing the apartment, that that's
• 12:16
  Speaker 6: created the background for the motive. The only difference, Jason,
• 12:21
  Speaker 6: is that that background was a five over five years old,
• 12:25
  Speaker 6: that it had nothing else happened in five years, and
• 12:28
  Speaker 6: that did Tyrone Tyrone had. When I trashed apartment, I
• 12:33
  Speaker 6: did it in front of Tyrone, and it was said
• 12:35
  Speaker 6: that I put pulled a gun on Tyrone at that apartment,
• 12:39
  Speaker 6: but there was nobody there to tell their story. But
• 12:41
  Speaker 6: Tyrone and Tyrone count is the one that save me
• 12:45
  Speaker 6: on the ninety one indictment of trashing the Derbrook apartment.
• 12:50
  Speaker 6: He told them that no, Kerry did not put a
• 12:52
  Speaker 6: gun in my head. Kerry did not hold me hostage,
• 12:56
  Speaker 6: and Carrie had nothing against me.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: It was all against.
• 12:58
  Speaker 5: Seals you anyway and charge you with the crime. Now again,
• 13:03
  Speaker 5: I'm thinking with sixty eight murders in the city the size.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: Of Loale, and I have the last body on a
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: political year.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: Right, so they need they need to put a ball
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: on this one, right.
• 13:14
  Speaker 6: Hey, why not snatch anybody they had with all of
• 13:18
  Speaker 6: this background that they had on me, that that to
• 13:21
  Speaker 6: me gave them probable calls to come after me. Just
• 13:25
  Speaker 6: got out of penitentiary, has a background for violence itself,
• 13:30
  Speaker 6: especially with the.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: Lags ninety one incident.
• 13:33
  Speaker 6: And I think that they used that ninety one in
• 13:36
  Speaker 6: my background to say, hey, look, carry's own drugs. He
• 13:41
  Speaker 6: just got out of penitentiary. If he put the case
• 13:45
  Speaker 6: on him, he'll just go down like any other drug
• 13:48
  Speaker 6: and dummy and won't work on this case. It backfired
• 13:51
  Speaker 6: on him, but it got became an easy target in
• 13:53
  Speaker 6: my opinion.
• 13:54
  Speaker 5: But it got a little trickier because seven months later,
• 13:57
  Speaker 5: like you were talking about good.
• 13:58
  Speaker 6: Uh huh, you want to tell that's yes, I do
• 14:02
  Speaker 6: on June to thirteenth that here happens to be a
• 14:05
  Speaker 6: Friday thirteenth. So nineteen ninety seven, Cecilia Sanders, well send
• 14:13
  Speaker 6: your camp was involved as a getaway driver in a
• 14:16
  Speaker 6: Hemlock murder in which Juan Sanders wan Leo Sanders shot
• 14:21
  Speaker 6: and killed Antoine Chapman. He also shot shot Antoine's mother,
• 14:25
  Speaker 6: Anita Watts. He also shot his own uncle John. They
• 14:29
  Speaker 6: called John Dirty Sanders, and he walked away with a
• 14:35
  Speaker 6: twelve year sentence for all these shootings. But this is
• 14:37
  Speaker 6: six months later after the murder of Tyrone Camp.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: That should have raised arag fact to the Louisville Police.
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: Then it was ALPD. It should have raised a red flag.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: But the difference, Jason is that at the time Louisville
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: hadn't merged as Metro. It was Louisville Jeffson County Police
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: versus Louisville Loisill Downtown Police. So the county police knew
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: of my innocence and fought for my innocent and the
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: Louisville Police fault to frame me. Wow, that's that's deep.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: That's a new one.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: We've heard a lot of stories on this show, listeners.
• 15:16
  Speaker 5: I've heard, you know, I have people telling me, man
• 15:18
  Speaker 5: this one that everyone has a different one that they
• 15:20
  Speaker 5: they point to as the craziest one. But I've never
• 15:23
  Speaker 5: heard that particular. That's so odd because you have separate entities.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: But up under the same head.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: It's starting to heard from this, so you have.
• 15:33
  Speaker 6: You're the only one who does this if so many
• 15:35
  Speaker 6: twists in turn, people say, how do you deal with this?
• 15:39
  Speaker 5: And and by the way, when I was mentioning all
• 15:41
  Speaker 5: the twists and turns earlier and all the I mean,
• 15:44
  Speaker 5: all the factors in your crazy story of being framed
• 15:48
  Speaker 5: and convicted wrongfully and everything else, that I forgot to
• 15:51
  Speaker 5: mention the jail house snitch, which is a very important.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: Part of the story too, great gully.
• 15:56
  Speaker 5: Right, So, and there's a very very interesting as to
• 16:00
  Speaker 5: that too, which I think when everyone hears this, there's
• 16:03
  Speaker 5: gonna be a few people signed up for law school
• 16:04
  Speaker 5: going I want to be the guy that discovers that
• 16:06
  Speaker 5: kind of stuff, because it's great and that and that,
• 16:11
  Speaker 5: you know, let's let's get into this aspect of the case,
• 16:14
  Speaker 5: because so here it is. Seven months later, an inconvenient
• 16:19
  Speaker 5: truth emerges, which is that the two logical suspects, Cecilia
• 16:25
  Speaker 5: and Uh and Juan Sanders end up being caught red
• 16:29
  Speaker 5: handed shooting three people. And now you go, okay, so
• 16:36
  Speaker 5: let me just see here like this, we could be
• 16:38
  Speaker 5: in like eighth grade. We sit here and go, wait
• 16:40
  Speaker 5: a minute, okay, but hold on, there's there's now there's
• 16:43
  Speaker 5: the insurance money, there's the there's the propensity to violence,
• 16:47
  Speaker 5: that same kind of thing. Shootings like it's really this one,
• 16:51
  Speaker 5: as I say, this one comes with instructions, right, but instead,
• 16:56
  Speaker 5: but that being said, that didn't throw anybody off the case.
• 16:59
  Speaker 5: They were still ell bent on getting you. And in
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: order to do that, they found a convenient uh willing,
• 17:09
  Speaker 5: very willing, who was happy to make a deal. And
• 17:12
  Speaker 5: and this is something that I mentioned at times to time,
• 17:15
  Speaker 5: but the idea to me that everyone knows to watches
• 17:20
  Speaker 5: TV or has any type of education whatsoever in this country,
• 17:24
  Speaker 5: everyone knows you cannot bribe a witness, right, So you
• 17:28
  Speaker 5: can't go to uh, you know whatever, I see somebody
• 17:32
  Speaker 5: shoplifting or whatever.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: It is and they bring me in.
• 17:34
  Speaker 5: So that guy can't come to me and say, well,
• 17:37
  Speaker 5: I give you one hundred dollars, but just tell them
• 17:39
  Speaker 5: with somebody else, right, that ain't happening. Everybody knows that's
• 17:42
  Speaker 5: a gets the law. But the government can go to
• 17:46
  Speaker 5: a jailhouse snitch and say, listen, I'm going to give
• 17:49
  Speaker 5: you the best bribe there is. I'm going to reduce
• 17:51
  Speaker 5: your sentence or let you give you a get out
• 17:53
  Speaker 5: of jail free card or whatever it is. All you
• 17:55
  Speaker 5: got to do is tell us the story on the
• 17:58
  Speaker 5: stand that Harry told you. It happens all the time.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: Carry told you.
• 18:04
  Speaker 5: That he did this murder, and you're gonna go, we're
• 18:08
  Speaker 5: gonna be real nice to you, right, And that's exactly
• 18:11
  Speaker 5: what happened. And by the way, I don't even want
• 18:14
  Speaker 5: to judge that guy because I don't know what his
• 18:15
  Speaker 5: particular situation is.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to excuse it.
• 18:17
  Speaker 5: Either, But exactly, I don't know how anybody in that situation.
• 18:22
  Speaker 5: I mean, I hope I know how people would react,
• 18:23
  Speaker 5: because it's the wrong thing to do. But it's a
• 18:26
  Speaker 5: difficult you know, it would require a lot of soul searching.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: If someone saying, listen, you go.
• 18:31
  Speaker 5: Hold your family right right now, you're looking at you're
• 18:34
  Speaker 5: looking at ten to twenty for whatever it is our
• 18:37
  Speaker 5: robbery that we're gonna right and anyway, So but this
• 18:40
  Speaker 5: guy was happy to take the deal. And interestingly, we
• 18:43
  Speaker 5: know that jailhouse snitches are often used multiple times. They
• 18:47
  Speaker 5: get placed in cells either with or right next to
• 18:51
  Speaker 5: people that the authorities.
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: Want, and then they sing like a bird. So that's
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: exactly what this guy did.
• 18:56
  Speaker 5: But tell us about that, and let's get to the trial, right,
• 18:58
  Speaker 5: Because how long did it take you to get to trial?
• 19:01
  Speaker 6: They tried me for that murder in eighteen months. The
• 19:05
  Speaker 6: trial day was August twenty fifth to begin. I was
• 19:07
  Speaker 6: twenty fifth of nineteen ninety eight. I was in ninety
• 19:10
  Speaker 6: February to twenty of nineteen ninety seven.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: You do the math.
• 19:14
  Speaker 5: Eighteen months in about five days, so you go to trial.
• 19:18
  Speaker 5: Uh did you know that this guy was going to
• 19:19
  Speaker 5: testify against you?
• 19:20
  Speaker 6: Yes, I was given his statement and knew before I knew.
• 19:27
  Speaker 6: When I knew he was a jail house plan. It
• 19:29
  Speaker 6: was all over that he was a jail house plan.
• 19:32
  Speaker 6: And Greg Gully still performed, still perform. Craig was jail Houston.
• 19:37
  Speaker 6: Greg Gully gave an interview on February the twelve. They
• 19:42
  Speaker 6: put my case to Geller. Kenneth Brown did identification on
• 19:46
  Speaker 6: February to tenth. Greg Galliy did his on February to twelve,
• 19:50
  Speaker 6: and Marcus Pinograd is a friend of mine to head
• 19:53
  Speaker 6: a case pending. He gave his on April twenty second
• 19:56
  Speaker 6: of ninety seven. Those other days in the critical days
• 19:59
  Speaker 6: in which the Commonwealth put his witnesses together against me.
• 20:04
  Speaker 6: But great Gully was by far, as the drawer later said.
• 20:07
  Speaker 6: After my post conviction relief and doing Melan Go interviewed
• 20:13
  Speaker 6: these people, and these drawers said that we weren't convinced
• 20:16
  Speaker 6: with nobody but Greg Gully. Greg Gully sold us hand, foot,
• 20:22
  Speaker 6: tooth and nail.
• 20:23
  Speaker 5: So they picked a guy who was a good actor
• 20:25
  Speaker 5: to a good liar and a good actor. But he
• 20:27
  Speaker 5: made one critical mistake, right, he made the Baywatch mistake.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: Yes he did.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: Okay, So the jury goes out. How long did the
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: trial last?
• 20:45
  Speaker 6: The trial lasts six days, so dead to Aux aug
• 20:49
  Speaker 6: thirty first, and I told my lawyer that it would
• 20:52
  Speaker 6: be a two week trial, and she didn't put on
• 20:55
  Speaker 6: she tried, and she didn't call most of the people that I.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: Wanted to call.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: What did you think?
• 21:03
  Speaker 5: And it is interesting too because we've had people on
• 21:07
  Speaker 5: the show whose trials took up to three weeks, I think,
• 21:10
  Speaker 5: And then we had Malcolm Alexander whose trial took less
• 21:13
  Speaker 5: than one day. Start to finish youry selection, everything else
• 21:16
  Speaker 5: I have sent to life in prison. So your trial
• 21:20
  Speaker 5: six days. You've now heard these people get up and lie.
• 21:23
  Speaker 5: Now before we get to the jury verdict. There was
• 21:26
  Speaker 5: one thing that I read when I was reading up
• 21:28
  Speaker 5: about your case that was confusing to me, which was
• 21:30
  Speaker 5: that your alibi was disputed by the one person who
• 21:35
  Speaker 5: could confirm it right, right, So how did that happen?
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: What went wrong there?
• 21:43
  Speaker 6: My niece, My niece said she didn't mean to my
• 21:49
  Speaker 6: lawyer didn't interview her. And and I'll know my sister
• 21:53
  Speaker 6: and so my niece when she told she cantun to stand,
• 21:58
  Speaker 6: she said that she thought that I can came in
• 22:00
  Speaker 6: at eleven something, that eleven something on December the twenty sixth,
• 22:05
  Speaker 6: before the twenty seven and the actual time that I
• 22:08
  Speaker 6: did come in was four point thirty at five o'clock.
• 22:10
  Speaker 6: I was using drugs at the time and I've been
• 22:13
  Speaker 6: getting high all night on orangemer. So when my sister said,
• 22:17
  Speaker 6: when my niece said at eleven, my sister said, the
• 22:21
  Speaker 6: real time was at at four thirty to.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: Five five o'clock, five fifteen. What happened there?
• 22:27
  Speaker 6: When you got a controversy like adver beteen two family members,
• 22:31
  Speaker 6: they think that that one, you know, one person's trying
• 22:33
  Speaker 6: to save them and the other one was telling them
• 22:35
  Speaker 6: the truth. So that left a bad impression with the jewelry.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: I see.
• 22:40
  Speaker 5: So it's really it wasn't really that they contradicted you.
• 22:44
  Speaker 5: It was more of a misunderstanding between them, which ended
• 22:47
  Speaker 5: up looking like you were lying.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: Correct and the Donald.
• 22:51
  Speaker 6: What you're getting at is Donald Bruteley, Donald Brutley I
• 22:53
  Speaker 6: was supposed to have been. When I gave my saving
• 22:56
  Speaker 6: on January seventh, or ninety seven, I told the Louisville
• 22:59
  Speaker 6: Police that I uh. They said, do you know where
• 23:02
  Speaker 6: you was at this time?
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: Right here?
• 23:05
  Speaker 6: I said, yeah, probably probably over my girlfriend's house. Did
• 23:10
  Speaker 6: y'all argy fight? Probably so, because we was doing drugs.
• 23:14
  Speaker 6: So when I told him the time that I was
• 23:16
  Speaker 6: over a house, she had been in Jadak for two days.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: I was two days off. But I told my lawyer.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: They put it.
• 23:25
  Speaker 6: They we had a hearing on it, and they produced
• 23:27
  Speaker 6: that I was a legedly lying. But Jason, when a
• 23:31
  Speaker 6: lot of people don't know when you're doing drugs, Cocaine's
• 23:34
  Speaker 6: the only thing I really know. Reefer didn't do that
• 23:36
  Speaker 6: to me. But when you're doing cocaine, when you have
• 23:39
  Speaker 6: a big piece of drug right here, well the days
• 23:43
  Speaker 6: only matter to real working people and real people when
• 23:46
  Speaker 6: you when you own drugs and stuff. The only thing
• 23:50
  Speaker 6: that matters is that one piece of drug realther the
• 23:52
  Speaker 6: last one day at tend days, that's only one day
• 23:56
  Speaker 6: because you only doing that moment. So so when when
• 23:59
  Speaker 6: when we doing drugs on my spree, we get the
• 24:03
  Speaker 6: times mixed up because it's only one day to us
• 24:07
  Speaker 6: as long as the drug glass, that's only one day
• 24:10
  Speaker 6: of doing drugs, even though it's five days.
• 24:12
  Speaker 5: It is a bad drug and the pat tricks on
• 24:14
  Speaker 5: your mind. And that is one thing I don't recommend
• 24:17
  Speaker 5: to anybody, do I do.
• 24:20
  Speaker 6: I struggle with that, and basically penitentiary broke it good.
• 24:25
  Speaker 5: Here we are at the trial. Things don't sound like
• 24:27
  Speaker 5: they were looking very good. I mean, but what was
• 24:29
  Speaker 5: your feeling? I mean, you had now been seeing some
• 24:35
  Speaker 5: crazy stuff, some some real games that they were playing.
• 24:40
  Speaker 5: You've seen that they were willing to go to extraordinary right, Yes,
• 24:45
  Speaker 5: And when the jury went out, did you think that
• 24:51
  Speaker 5: you had a chance?
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: No, Jason, Because that's let me take you back a
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: little bit. Jason.
• 24:57
  Speaker 6: When I first seen this on TV, my mother taught
• 25:00
  Speaker 6: my sister told me about it, and so I went
• 25:02
  Speaker 6: to go and look at her.
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: Keep in mind, I'm coming on.
• 25:04
  Speaker 6: For drugs or doing drugs at the time and December
• 25:06
  Speaker 6: twenty seven, so it's two days after Christmas. So Jason,
• 25:09
  Speaker 6: when I see it on TV, it was like my
• 25:13
  Speaker 6: little brothers, my friend Joe Talker, and all these people
• 25:17
  Speaker 6: that was in the room looking at the same time.
• 25:20
  Speaker 6: My sister said, somebody kills Seal's husband. You need to
• 25:24
  Speaker 6: look at it on TV.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: Well I was.
• 25:26
  Speaker 6: I was knowing I ain't do that, and so I'm
• 25:28
  Speaker 6: stopping to me other than the harble flying.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: So when I see it on.
• 25:32
  Speaker 6: TV, it was like God was right behind me, and
• 25:36
  Speaker 6: God told me, and listen, I've been trying to get
• 25:39
  Speaker 6: you to do my work and and basically change your life.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: You've been running for all this time. This is you.
• 25:47
  Speaker 6: So Jason, I knew that day God told me everything
• 25:51
  Speaker 6: that I was going to be incarcerated for. There was
• 25:54
  Speaker 6: no stopping it. So that you can tell all you
• 25:58
  Speaker 6: want about how other this case is gonna be. Nobody's
• 26:02
  Speaker 6: gonna believe you so so so, but God said in
• 26:06
  Speaker 6: the end I will prevail and that my name will
• 26:09
  Speaker 6: be glorified. So that's the way this case went. So
• 26:12
  Speaker 6: Jason went when everything that happened, nothing surprised me because
• 26:16
  Speaker 6: God had already told me.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: That's why.
• 26:19
  Speaker 6: Now, even though I was doing drugs and stuff, I
• 26:21
  Speaker 6: was shocked into a religious experience that I never I mean,
• 26:28
  Speaker 6: I told everybody, listen, man, they're gonna they're gonna get
• 26:30
  Speaker 6: me on this case. All of my friends said, man,
• 26:33
  Speaker 6: will stop saying that you don't have nothing to do
• 26:35
  Speaker 6: with it. Why would you be saying that, man, y'all
• 26:37
  Speaker 6: not understand. Man, they're gonna frame me. Man, y'all not
• 26:40
  Speaker 6: understand listening to man Krisch telling us that I told
• 26:43
  Speaker 6: my buddy for reed.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: I told during Woods.
• 26:46
  Speaker 6: I told all some close people to me, and they
• 26:49
  Speaker 6: all thought I was crazy. So so Jason. When when
• 26:52
  Speaker 6: the verdict came back in forty minutes, I was not shocked.
• 26:57
  Speaker 6: I was beyond calm. Interesting enough, you should see the fine.
• 27:02
  Speaker 6: I was beyond calm, and I knew that I knew
• 27:06
  Speaker 6: that I had to go down and fight it from
• 27:08
  Speaker 6: behind the bars.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: But you also knew there was going to work out
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: in the end. So and it did.
• 27:12
  Speaker 5: And that's and that's a really interesting part of the
• 27:14
  Speaker 5: story because how this thing eventually unraveled. And actually, you know,
• 27:20
  Speaker 5: as much as I don't think anyone can comprehend what
• 27:24
  Speaker 5: you went through eleven years behind bars.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: It's actually sort of. I mean, the.
• 27:29
  Speaker 5: Average case takes longer of an innocent person to get
• 27:32
  Speaker 5: their conviction overturn, and we know that most innocent people
• 27:35
  Speaker 5: never convict get their convictions overturned because there's so many.
• 27:37
  Speaker 5: In fact, the latest estimate that just came out is
• 27:39
  Speaker 5: that six percent of all the people in prison in
• 27:42
  Speaker 5: the United States are innocent. So there you are in
• 27:47
  Speaker 5: prison for this crime you didn't commit, and since the
• 27:51
  Speaker 5: sixty years so basically life sentence.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: You would never be on a life sentence, right.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: You wann't you want to go to live sixty years
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: in there?
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: Had you know?
• 28:02
  Speaker 6: I knew day one that I was calm about every
• 28:06
  Speaker 6: time because it was the Book of Daniels. I'm gonna
• 28:08
  Speaker 6: come out smelling like a rose.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: And God assured me that.
• 28:13
  Speaker 6: And I assure God that if you give me enough wisdom,
• 28:17
  Speaker 6: enough strength to fight this case, I would have everybody
• 28:20
  Speaker 6: that comes to me is willing to have themselves. I
• 28:24
  Speaker 6: went straight in, went straight to the law library, worked
• 28:26
  Speaker 6: a law library for the whole fifteen years. Like I say,
• 28:30
  Speaker 6: I'll call it fifteen from December to twenty February twenty two.
• 28:33
  Speaker 6: I got out of December nineteen and Jason. I worked
• 28:36
  Speaker 6: in a law library every.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: Day all day.
• 28:40
  Speaker 6: I did this case a minimum of twelve hours minimum.
• 28:44
  Speaker 6: If I I have, I had seventeen laundry bags of
• 28:50
  Speaker 6: legal work. I still have those laundry bags of legal
• 28:53
  Speaker 6: work in a storeage unit. My mother told me to
• 28:55
  Speaker 6: make a chair and I'm gonna do it and take
• 28:58
  Speaker 6: a picture of it. Seventeen bags. So she tells me
• 29:01
  Speaker 6: to make a chure of and sit in there and
• 29:03
  Speaker 6: pose and take a picture of it. The country. Everybody
• 29:06
  Speaker 6: needs to see that. But that's what it took to
• 29:08
  Speaker 6: get me out. I know each one of those pieces
• 29:11
  Speaker 6: of paper either I hand written them from the whole.
• 29:15
  Speaker 6: I typed them up on two typewriters. I wore out
• 29:18
  Speaker 6: the typewriter the E and the A was completely wore out.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: I had the people say, man, I can't see the letter.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: They can, they won't use them typewriter. I can't see
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: the letters on the alphabets or nothing. I say, yeah,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: but here's E. I had. I had to put a
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: paper clip for the E.
• 29:35
  Speaker 6: The button wore out and got sticky, so I had
• 29:37
  Speaker 6: to reinvented as those convicts are clever.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: I had a tape, a paper clip.
• 29:42
  Speaker 6: I still have that typewriter, my TV, my cooler, my
• 29:45
  Speaker 6: hot pie, and all of these things there on my souvenir.
• 29:48
  Speaker 6: And when I built my house, I will put them
• 29:50
  Speaker 6: in my basement and scare the stuffings out of my
• 29:53
  Speaker 6: bad butt. Grandkids, if they choose to go, try to
• 29:56
  Speaker 6: go south on me. I was gonna make a a
• 30:01
  Speaker 6: monument of what Eastern was like a dorm. I know
• 30:05
  Speaker 6: the blocks. I counted the blocks, I got them roped down.
• 30:08
  Speaker 6: I counted on how high they win. I knew where
• 30:10
  Speaker 6: the event is. I used toilet paper as my measuring stick,
• 30:14
  Speaker 6: and I know the whole thing. I've got it on
• 30:16
  Speaker 6: paper what Eastern looks like. So I'm going to build
• 30:20
  Speaker 6: that in my basement with a bean shooter recaller. That's
• 30:23
  Speaker 6: where they feed you through the hole at they open
• 30:25
  Speaker 6: up a flap that's about four inches maybe three and
• 30:29
  Speaker 6: a half four inches tall and probably about maybe sixteen
• 30:33
  Speaker 6: inches long fifteen sixteen inches long, and they feed you
• 30:37
  Speaker 6: through there, and that's where they put their handcuffs on
• 30:39
  Speaker 6: you to take you to transport you otherwise. So I'm
• 30:43
  Speaker 6: going to put this on my basement for other kids
• 30:46
  Speaker 6: as a monumental there.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: Hey, listen, don't be me.
• 30:51
  Speaker 5: So let's talk about the what I would call my
• 30:56
  Speaker 5: favorite part of the story, right, which is how this
• 30:59
  Speaker 5: thing got fixed. I mean, it can never really be
• 31:01
  Speaker 5: fixed because no one can give you back those eleven
• 31:03
  Speaker 5: years of your life. But you have certainly made the
• 31:05
  Speaker 5: most out of it. How did you ultimately find your freedom?
• 31:10
  Speaker 5: Because I love and we're now we're finally going to
• 31:13
  Speaker 5: let people in on the bay Watch part of the
• 31:14
  Speaker 5: story because.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: It's great, right. I watched William Gregor.
• 31:19
  Speaker 6: He was the first guy in the nation to get
• 31:23
  Speaker 6: exonerated by mitochondri in DNA, first guy in the nation.
• 31:28
  Speaker 6: He's the seven to fourth person in the United States
• 31:32
  Speaker 6: to be exonerated. I watched him walk out of North
• 31:36
  Speaker 6: Point on about July the fifth of July the ninth,
• 31:39
  Speaker 6: somewhere up in there of two thousand at that time,
• 31:42
  Speaker 6: Innocent Project in Kentucky, the Kentucky Anctant Project was very new,
• 31:47
  Speaker 6: if it was even established all the way.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: So when they did find it, when.
• 31:51
  Speaker 6: After a few months after he left, I wrote Kentucky
• 31:57
  Speaker 6: Instant Projects down in Eddyville at the time. They accepted
• 32:01
  Speaker 6: my case in November of two thousand and six, in
• 32:04
  Speaker 6: between the season in which they wasn't supposed to take it.
• 32:08
  Speaker 6: So now then I found out later that the reason
• 32:10
  Speaker 6: they took it were officials said that they had officials
• 32:14
  Speaker 6: I don't know who these officials were, said they had
• 32:16
  Speaker 6: an insant man indepenitentiary and that they needed to get
• 32:19
  Speaker 6: him out. So the encientt project came to me and
• 32:22
  Speaker 6: there's Gordon roynaldsi On, Melanie Lowe and Melanie low and
• 32:27
  Speaker 6: Linda Smith and Alex Matthews, UK student. They all sat
• 32:35
  Speaker 6: down on my case and started doing the footwork. And
• 32:39
  Speaker 6: that was the beginning of my freedom.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: When you say UK still you mean in the University
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: of Kentucky, not the United Kingdom. Yeah.
• 32:46
  Speaker 5: And so they started working on it, and what did
• 32:48
  Speaker 5: they find.
• 32:49
  Speaker 6: They it took him six years to be out, and
• 32:52
  Speaker 6: I got frustrated. During the six years, me and Melanie
• 32:55
  Speaker 6: low were kind of totally toe on some phone calls,
• 32:59
  Speaker 6: and lucky enough, I had Danny Butler co case. Detective
• 33:03
  Speaker 6: Danny Butler came aboard and he asked Melanie load him,
• 33:07
  Speaker 6: could he help exonerate me, help free me? And they
• 33:11
  Speaker 6: as a team got together in the last two years,
• 33:14
  Speaker 6: we produced the.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: DNA that was not mine.
• 33:19
  Speaker 6: The centerpiece of this case, Jason, was an alleged homemade silencer.
• 33:24
  Speaker 6: So whoever made a silencer prepared for premeditation, prepare to
• 33:31
  Speaker 6: get away with a crime, and a vicious crime at
• 33:34
  Speaker 6: that So tom on Kin was shot with a shotgun.
• 33:39
  Speaker 6: So this silencer was a centerpiece at the at the
• 33:42
  Speaker 6: at the crime scene, actual transportation and uh, they tested
• 33:47
  Speaker 6: the duct This chuncer was comprised of duct tape. While
• 33:51
  Speaker 6: I met carpet rolled up in duct tape and it
• 33:55
  Speaker 6: was left at the scene. So they got to the
• 33:58
  Speaker 6: DNA out of this duct tape and it was not
• 34:00
  Speaker 6: my DNA.
• 34:02
  Speaker 5: And then they found out that the jail house snitch,
• 34:05
  Speaker 5: Greg Gillimo, was They found out that he was lying
• 34:08
  Speaker 5: and that one of the key aspects of his very
• 34:12
  Speaker 5: damning testimony against you was that he said I can
• 34:14
  Speaker 5: remember it clear as a bell that he confessed to
• 34:17
  Speaker 5: me because I remember at the time he did it,
• 34:19
  Speaker 5: we were watching Baywatch on TV. And then your guys,
• 34:22
  Speaker 5: who obviously were on their A game, they found out
• 34:26
  Speaker 5: they did some research and found out that Baywatch wasn't
• 34:28
  Speaker 5: even on TV that day.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: Baywatch is a PG time.
• 34:31
  Speaker 6: It had what's the name Pamela Anderson, Yes, Pamela Anderson
• 34:37
  Speaker 6: and what's called guy?
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: And that's all the only time you seen a gun
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: on Baywatch was if they had a lifeguard race and
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: the black guy that was a coast guard or beach
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: police shot the little you know, gold Time started seeing
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: it a little bit.
• 34:55
  Speaker 6: I watched the bay Watch. That's the some time I
• 34:56
  Speaker 6: remember about it. Now what Linda, Melanie Low Liam got
• 35:01
  Speaker 6: that from me. I did my homework and oh yes,
• 35:04
  Speaker 6: I did most of the footwork I did. But thank
• 35:07
  Speaker 6: you Melanie low then the Smith and all the rest
• 35:09
  Speaker 6: of y'all. But I did my homework and I even
• 35:12
  Speaker 6: wrote that guy named They had an article in the
• 35:14
  Speaker 6: find right Dave. Dave was somebody you write and asked
• 35:18
  Speaker 6: him questions about anything you wanted to know about any show.
• 35:22
  Speaker 6: So I wrote Dave several times and he finally got
• 35:25
  Speaker 6: back with him and he said, I use that as
• 35:28
  Speaker 6: proof to show Melanie and them listen, Baywatch don't have
• 35:32
  Speaker 6: no shotgun. Greg Gully's theme was that that we was
• 35:37
  Speaker 6: watching Baywatch in CCC A forty men Dom and I
• 35:42
  Speaker 6: told him while watching Baywatch that this guy that was
• 35:46
  Speaker 6: on the Baywatch show was supposed to have been a deaf person,
• 35:49
  Speaker 6: a blind person, and he shot a She was working
• 35:54
  Speaker 6: on a clay figure, and she had heard of Robbie.
• 35:57
  Speaker 6: Because she's blind, she didn't see it. She heard it.
• 36:00
  Speaker 6: This burglar, this guy knew that she was gonna be
• 36:03
  Speaker 6: a witness, and she, according to Greg Gully, blew the
• 36:08
  Speaker 6: dumb the clay figure's head off with a shotgun and
• 36:11
  Speaker 6: told her whispered in her that would be that's gonna
• 36:14
  Speaker 6: be your head if you try to testify against me.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: This far fast signed.
• 36:19
  Speaker 6: This is what Greg Gully said, And he testified this
• 36:21
  Speaker 6: very adamantly at trial, and it was so kind of
• 36:25
  Speaker 6: far faster. I laughed, and my lawyer had an elbow me.
• 36:29
  Speaker 6: But it was so sickening and so pathetic that that,
• 36:32
  Speaker 6: you know, anybody could should have seen through that, but
• 36:35
  Speaker 6: it wasn't. So that you have to rind back the
• 36:38
  Speaker 6: trial take and see it. I know, almost exact minutes
• 36:40
  Speaker 6: and everything. So Greg Gully says this touff and I
• 36:55
  Speaker 6: wrote all kinds of people and proved that there was
• 36:57
  Speaker 6: no such Baywatch episode about any clay figure and somebody
• 37:02
  Speaker 6: shooting with a shotgun.
• 37:04
  Speaker 5: So anyway, so that that they watch actually in between
• 37:08
  Speaker 5: saving people from drowning, they may have actually actually had
• 37:11
  Speaker 5: to roll and saving your.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: Life too, So that's nice.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: Yes, I was.
• 37:15
  Speaker 5: You were drowning in the drowning in the system, not
• 37:18
  Speaker 5: in the ways, but anyway, so that's a that's a
• 37:20
  Speaker 5: good So you get a lot of credit for that
• 37:22
  Speaker 5: investigative work right there.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: Which is great. Yes, I did a whole lot. I mean,
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: that's amazing.
• 37:26
  Speaker 5: So back to this, So ultimately the government's case starts
• 37:31
  Speaker 5: completely deteriorating, falling apart, crumbling, whatever you want to call it.
• 37:35
  Speaker 5: And you are starting to see a little light at
• 37:38
  Speaker 5: the end.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: Of the tunnel.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, yes, you.
• 37:41
  Speaker 5: Have to stop smiling from what I can tell. But anyway,
• 37:43
  Speaker 5: you've been here and and then so so how did
• 37:47
  Speaker 5: it finally.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: End up with you gaining your freedom?
• 37:52
  Speaker 6: We also to back up the d n A mainly
• 37:55
  Speaker 6: load them wively, strategically said uh, let's do another lot.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: I did.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: Oh, by the way, I did a light detactor.
• 38:04
  Speaker 6: On December January seventh of nineteen ninety seven, and that
• 38:09
  Speaker 6: light attector guy for the over police said I passed,
• 38:12
  Speaker 6: he said, I passed with flying colors.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: So they did. They made my my what should have
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: been my co defender, Joe Tucker, they made him take
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: a light attack to test two of them. He passed
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: both of them. Two. So he said, Joe Tucker said
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: that he was scared to go out of that office
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: because when he said, the guy told me passed the
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: fine claud I got locked up. And so Joe Tucker
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: was scared to go past that offense because of that.
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: So getting back with the light of tech test, we
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: did a lot of attach to test and I passed
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: that with fine close. So that's the second light of
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: tech of tests I took. So that that.
• 38:46
  Speaker 6: Couple with the DNA couple with Greg gully Ban and
• 38:50
  Speaker 6: Jenerhal Snintz, and the deals were made with Marcus Spindograss
• 38:56
  Speaker 6: and Greg got Isuell and the Kenneth Brown recam. That man,
• 39:01
  Speaker 6: I never told y'all that I really knew there was carry.
• 39:04
  Speaker 6: I was never one hundred percent sure. So all of
• 39:07
  Speaker 6: these factors ended up aiding and to where the commonwealth
• 39:11
  Speaker 6: couldn't couldn't bow down. And then the main thing that
• 39:15
  Speaker 6: came along Jason was Fransvois Cuttingham, Franscrois cutting Ham and
• 39:20
  Speaker 6: uh interested enough doing a murder out in Jaytown in
• 39:26
  Speaker 6: Frank Creek, and he this was his second murder. His
• 39:30
  Speaker 6: first murder was a Mexican and was used homemade sounds
• 39:34
  Speaker 6: that was used in that case. So me and Frans
• 39:37
  Speaker 6: guid Will happened to be down North Point together, but
• 39:40
  Speaker 6: I didn't mess want to mess with Francois. Francois wanted
• 39:44
  Speaker 6: to talk to me several times, and I didn't want
• 39:46
  Speaker 6: any dealing with him because I knew that he was
• 39:49
  Speaker 6: part of Juan Sanders and his clique. They called themselves
• 39:53
  Speaker 6: murder Inc. And at one time they called himself Moms
• 39:57
  Speaker 6: Masters of Murders, so either one of the the title
• 40:00
  Speaker 6: spelled real bad.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 40:03
  Speaker 6: They were younger than me, so I didn't know that
• 40:05
  Speaker 6: they was doing all this. So anyway, Frank Wi he
• 40:09
  Speaker 6: called his first medic case in ninety seven, and the
• 40:13
  Speaker 6: lawsuit presues that Franccoi told the loruis of the police
• 40:17
  Speaker 6: long before my trial who had did this, why they
• 40:20
  Speaker 6: did it, and that they was gonna frame me Fransquiard
• 40:23
  Speaker 6: cutting down. So this was a find that made that
• 40:26
  Speaker 6: made the Commonwealth Dave Stingle bowed down and had to
• 40:30
  Speaker 6: let me go, so we had Frank wid had ended
• 40:34
  Speaker 6: up on his second murder case. He got out in
• 40:39
  Speaker 6: two thousand and four and called him murder case in
• 40:41
  Speaker 6: two thousand and five in which he killed two people
• 40:44
  Speaker 6: a girl and a guy, a couple, and they were
• 40:46
  Speaker 6: out in Fern Creek Park, frien Creek School's park, and
• 40:50
  Speaker 6: he shot and burnt them up. So he made a deal.
• 40:53
  Speaker 6: He took it to trial and had a mistrial, and
• 40:56
  Speaker 6: on his second time going to trial, he made a deal.
• 41:00
  Speaker 6: Part of the deal was that he telled on several
• 41:02
  Speaker 6: murders that he knew about.
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: At the end of the.
• 41:05
  Speaker 6: Murders, he said, oh, by the way, Kerry Porter is
• 41:08
  Speaker 6: also innocent, and he had nothing to do with the
• 41:11
  Speaker 6: nineteen ninety six murder of Tyrone Kap. At the end
• 41:14
  Speaker 6: of the interview, oh, also, Kerry Porter is also innocent too.
• 41:18
  Speaker 6: And here's why Jayan Sanders tried to pay me fifty
• 41:21
  Speaker 6: thousand dollars to kill him, and I didn't want to
• 41:24
  Speaker 6: take that hit.
• 41:25
  Speaker 5: Right, So he came right out and said that Sanators
• 41:28
  Speaker 5: had offered him fifty thousand, thousand dollars.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: To do the murder.
• 41:32
  Speaker 5: He turned it down, which is kind of strange taking
• 41:33
  Speaker 5: back on it, but whatever, we have to get into
• 41:35
  Speaker 5: that now. But ultimately that's pretty powerful then. But okay,
• 41:39
  Speaker 5: so now let's fast forward to you get out right,
• 41:44
  Speaker 5: and how I mean I've seen, like I said, I've
• 41:46
  Speaker 5: seen you on TV. This is you know, this smile
• 41:50
  Speaker 5: that you can't seem to get rid of. And I
• 41:51
  Speaker 5: don't even know if you want to thank you. I
• 41:53
  Speaker 5: know you're walking around New York checking everything out. So
• 41:57
  Speaker 5: but so you get out, and no, sooner do you
• 42:00
  Speaker 5: get out, then you're calling for justice on the case,
• 42:03
  Speaker 5: and you're immediately starting to advocate for other people in
• 42:07
  Speaker 5: your situation. And that's really because there really hasn't been justice.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: In your case. There's no justice, No arrests have been made.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: No, I don't care nothing about the lawsuit.
• 42:21
  Speaker 6: I don't care nothing about no blanking money, because money
• 42:25
  Speaker 6: is what this case was all about all the way.
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: Around the board. Tyrone Camp lost.
• 42:30
  Speaker 6: His life because he was no more than a money
• 42:32
  Speaker 6: factor to my little boy's mama. Sadly, so, money has
• 42:37
  Speaker 6: always been evil to me. I give money away like
• 42:40
  Speaker 6: it's forty one. I don't I'm not materialistic. I'm not
• 42:44
  Speaker 6: caught up in the money world. So when I this case,
• 42:50
  Speaker 6: no justice because me and Jerome Camp, Jerome Camp has
• 42:54
  Speaker 6: been on my side, fighting, fighting the Louisville police since
• 42:59
  Speaker 6: before on before trial. He's been trying to tell these people,
• 43:03
  Speaker 6: y'all have the wrong person carry us, not the killer.
• 43:07
  Speaker 6: It is Cecilia and our boyfriend.
• 43:10
  Speaker 5: And that's the victim's family calling for justice for their
• 43:13
  Speaker 5: own kin. And to their great credit, Uh, they've stood
• 43:17
  Speaker 5: strong by your side.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: With wrong Camp. And we still friends today.
• 43:21
  Speaker 6: We go to his church on several occasions, spoke in
• 43:24
  Speaker 6: front of his congregation, We prayed in front of his congregation.
• 43:28
  Speaker 6: We we haven't had a counter like vision. Let we're
• 43:32
  Speaker 6: about to do that in some war time.
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: We've been working h waiting.
• 43:37
  Speaker 5: Uh.
• 43:38
  Speaker 6: The person that has this case, Uh, the leader detective
• 43:42
  Speaker 6: that has this case doesn't seem to want to go
• 43:46
  Speaker 6: after the obvious suspects.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 43:48
  Speaker 5: And I've seen your lawyer speak about this about how
• 43:51
  Speaker 5: you know he's calling for uh, the chief of police and.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: Louis Le to Steve Conrad right to uh to basically.
• 44:00
  Speaker 5: The whole department right and turn it over to an
• 44:03
  Speaker 5: independent agency to do what they got to do to
• 44:06
  Speaker 5: get to the bottom of this case, which it seems
• 44:08
  Speaker 5: to me I don't really. I mean, there's a lot
• 44:11
  Speaker 5: of things I don't understand, but I understand why that
• 44:12
  Speaker 5: would cause anybody any you know, like you would think
• 44:16
  Speaker 5: that everybody you know, because that's a crazy thing too, right,
• 44:19
  Speaker 5: Like even the people who are involved in this cover
• 44:22
  Speaker 5: up or whatever you want to call it, or involved
• 44:24
  Speaker 5: in yeah, involved in obstructing the justice from from getting
• 44:29
  Speaker 5: to its right, preventing the right outcome from happening. The
• 44:33
  Speaker 5: crazy thing about it, on top of all the other
• 44:36
  Speaker 5: crazy things, is that.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: They live in that community too.
• 44:41
  Speaker 5: And who's to say that they wouldn't end up being
• 44:44
  Speaker 5: somebody they love, might not end up getting hurt by
• 44:46
  Speaker 5: these people. These are dangerous people, right who killed I mean, anyway,
• 44:52
  Speaker 5: we won't even get into that now because we're not
• 44:54
  Speaker 5: going to do that's a psychology show. We have to
• 44:56
  Speaker 5: do a different psychology show to try to understand why
• 44:58
  Speaker 5: people would would behave the way that they do. But
• 45:01
  Speaker 5: we can't control that, not from this studio anyway. And
• 45:05
  Speaker 5: all we can do is do the best we can
• 45:07
  Speaker 5: to try to get the word out there about these situations,
• 45:10
  Speaker 5: about your story about how these things happen, why they happen,
• 45:14
  Speaker 5: and how to prevent them from happening in the future.
• 45:16
  Speaker 5: And I would say that you being here and telling
• 45:20
  Speaker 5: this story is a real eye opener for people who
• 45:23
  Speaker 5: are interested in getting into this work and people who
• 45:28
  Speaker 5: are just you know, just human beings who care about
• 45:32
  Speaker 5: that fellow human beings who want to make sure that
• 45:34
  Speaker 5: this doesn't happen to them or their family. Because I
• 45:37
  Speaker 5: think you would agree. I say to people, if you
• 45:39
  Speaker 5: think it can't happen to you, it can, right.
• 45:41
  Speaker 6: Yes, that's my model. Listen, y'all, if it happened to me.
• 45:47
  Speaker 6: I made a vow that that because it did happen
• 45:50
  Speaker 6: to me, they won't get anybody that I love. They
• 45:54
  Speaker 6: definitely won't get None of my kids are grand kids,
• 45:57
  Speaker 6: and as a result of this case, I haven't talked
• 45:59
  Speaker 6: to my son Carrie since trial. January August of twenty seven,
• 46:05
  Speaker 6: Little Kerry said hi, Daddy, and that's the last time
• 46:08
  Speaker 6: I heard little Kerry talk to me. He has thirty
• 46:12
  Speaker 6: He was twelve at that time. He is now thirty
• 46:14
  Speaker 6: three years of age, and he has two kids. I've
• 46:18
  Speaker 6: seen my grand baby Mason one time, identical twin to me.
• 46:22
  Speaker 6: Everybody tells me she's identical twin to me, a little
• 46:25
  Speaker 6: bit lighter than me, but she is me all the
• 46:29
  Speaker 6: way around the board. So I don't know how Cecilia
• 46:32
  Speaker 6: looks at little Carrie and then has to look at
• 46:35
  Speaker 6: a grand baby that she loves and keeps on up
• 46:37
  Speaker 6: because she's gonna, hopefully soon have to depart from him.
• 46:41
  Speaker 5: So Carrie, I could talk to you all day, but
• 46:44
  Speaker 5: we don't have all day. Yeah, we only have a
• 46:47
  Speaker 5: couple of minutes left. But we have a tradition here
• 46:50
  Speaker 5: on wrongful conviction, which is my favorite part of the show,
• 46:54
  Speaker 5: and I think probably a lot of people's favorite part
• 46:56
  Speaker 5: of the show, which is that at the end of
• 46:58
  Speaker 5: the show I stopped talking, just turn the microphone over
• 47:02
  Speaker 5: you and say what else would you like to share?
• 47:05
  Speaker 5: If you had another couple of minutes to just say
• 47:07
  Speaker 5: anything you want, and you've covered a lot, But what
• 47:10
  Speaker 5: else can you share.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: With our audience?
• 47:11
  Speaker 5: Well?
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: The main thing every day, y'all.
• 47:15
  Speaker 6: Every day, Almost every time I eat a meal, it
• 47:18
  Speaker 6: reminds you of penitentiary, no matter if I'm from a
• 47:21
  Speaker 6: bag of potato chips to the simplest thing a twister
• 47:25
  Speaker 6: a noun rat. Anything you consume reminds your penitentiary. That's
• 47:30
  Speaker 6: one factor. Second factor is I like to thank Jerome
• 47:33
  Speaker 6: com first and foremost for having a carriage to say
• 47:38
  Speaker 6: that I don't think this man is the man to
• 47:40
  Speaker 6: kill my brother, for him to stick beside me. I
• 47:44
  Speaker 6: like to thank Danny Butler for going against his fellow
• 47:50
  Speaker 6: employees and being called all kinds of bad names or
• 47:55
  Speaker 6: distal over that type of thing. Whatever they call Danny Butler.
• 47:58
  Speaker 6: I've heard some of them myself, so I've known that
• 48:02
  Speaker 6: he went through hell. Detective Cocaine, Detective Danny Butler, A
• 48:06
  Speaker 6: shop goes out to you, memly Low, Gordon Ron and
• 48:10
  Speaker 6: all of those that help exonerate me, my family that
• 48:12
  Speaker 6: supported me through trying to send letters of hope, money
• 48:19
  Speaker 6: and stamps. Took a lot of stamps and a lot
• 48:21
  Speaker 6: of copying to get me here, y'all, a whole lot.
• 48:24
  Speaker 6: I made the sacrifices a blown in and cracker. I
• 48:26
  Speaker 6: ate the cheapest thing, the canteen head. I would treat
• 48:29
  Speaker 6: myself every blue moon as a result of this. No
• 48:33
  Speaker 6: holiday makes a difference to me. I don't care about
• 48:36
  Speaker 6: my birthday, Christmas. It's savvy enough. I don't really give
• 48:40
  Speaker 6: presents out it ruins you. Yes, I smile all the time.
• 48:47
  Speaker 6: I'm happy one moment and crying the next every day,
• 48:51
  Speaker 6: all day. So if we as a whole society, we
• 48:56
  Speaker 6: need to make sure that this doesn't happen to another
• 48:59
  Speaker 6: carry Porter, because you're going to lose another Kerry Ramone junior,
• 49:03
  Speaker 6: and that's a big divide in the family. And you
• 49:06
  Speaker 6: just fine, this cycle is going to continue, So audience,
• 49:12
  Speaker 6: if I can do anything, man, please don't let this
• 49:16
  Speaker 6: happen to nobody else. I'm getting cheary now, So I'm
• 49:19
  Speaker 6: the end there because I'm in New York and I
• 49:22
  Speaker 6: want to smile.
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: Well, we're happy to have you here in New York.
• 49:27
  Speaker 5: I'm gon get a little choked up too, and I
• 49:29
  Speaker 5: really appreciate you being on the show and sharing your experience, knowledge, strength,
• 49:36
  Speaker 5: and your vision for the future. So once again, thank
• 49:40
  Speaker 5: you everyone for listening to this very special episode of
• 49:44
  Speaker 5: Wrongful Conviction with Kerry Porter.
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: Carrie. Thank you, Thank you Kerry Porter. The legend over
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: and that makes me smile.
• 50:02
  Speaker 5: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you
• 50:05
  Speaker 5: get your podcasts, it really helps and I'm a proud
• 50:09
  Speaker 5: donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll
• 50:11
  Speaker 5: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
• 50:15
  Speaker 5: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org
• 50:19
  Speaker 5: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like
• 50:22
  Speaker 5: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.
• 50:25
  Speaker 5: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
• 50:27
  Speaker 5: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
• 50:30
  Speaker 5: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook.
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: At Wrongful Conviction Podcast.
• 50:36
  Speaker 5: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava
• 50:39
  Speaker 5: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one