Latest / Just Cut It Out Podcast / Just Cut It Out Podcast | Breast Cancer, Bald Parties, Boundaries & Always Going to the Show

Transcript

Just Cut It Out Podcast | Breast Cancer, Bald Parties, Boundaries & Always Going to the Show · Just Cut It Out Podcast

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Dr.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: Kim Brown, and this is Just Cut It Out, where we talk about how the experience of a cancer diagnosis has made people think differently about what it means to them to live a good life.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Each episode, we cover a little bit of practical wisdom and a little bit of big picture.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: What does this all mean through conversations with patients, their families, and teams who take care of them?
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Dr.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Kimberly Brown, and this is Just Cut It Out.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Today, my guest is Deb Coulter.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: She is a 13-year breast cancer survivor, and she has channeled her desire to give back what she's done with from her experience into an amazing nonprofit.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really excited to hear more about that.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think you will enjoy hearing her story.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: And let's get started.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Deb.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so happy to have you here.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we've met a couple times over Zoom to get ready, and now here we are.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: So you started your journey many years ago.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: 13 years ago.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: And how did you come to find out that you had breast cancer?
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, I will tell you it was Labor Day, Saturday of Labor Day weekend in 2013.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I was putting, I just showered and I was putting lotion, and I I one of my my right breast was a little dry.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was putting like Nivea cream on it.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: And when I did that, I felt I felt a lump.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, what what could that possibly be?
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I went downstairs and asked my husband, I said, Can you feel this?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel this?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, I can't be anything, Deb.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's probably nothing.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I don't recommend this, but I doctor Googled myself and actually ended up being right on stage 2B, uh, just by based on everything I read.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: People even got your stage.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they got my stage.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: And and again, I was it was just, you know, I just was so worried at that point that I I was just trying to keep myself busy.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: And that was probably not the best way to do it.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: But it I don't know that that's a problem though, because it led you to take action, right?
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I knew right away I would take action.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: I um my my OBGYN um Dr.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Roya, we'd been through we'd been through a lot of lost pregnancy and two kids, and um just he knew my health luck was not great, so I knew I could get in to see him right away, um, and that it was really all facilitated by my um best friend's husband who's an anesthesiologist.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I think what we talked about a little before was I um I had a golden ticket to to get treated and to get seen right away.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I I know that most people don't have that, and that shouldn't be that way.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: It should be really easy for everyone to get the same kind of coverage and care that I got.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: I feel really lucky, but um, but it's you know, it it when I to look around and I see how you know people are waiting weeks for information, and I I mean that's not how I roll data.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: And when you don't have a primary care physician, right, that is the situation I see where women, whether they have insurance or not, yeah, is a is a struggle because you can go in and get a screening mammogram without a doctor's order.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure if people know that, but you can go into any of the radiology facilities here in the Austin area and get a screening mammogram.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: But when you have a symptom, it becomes a diagnostic mammogram that requires an order from a physician or nurse practitioner, PA, etc.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that becomes a big challenge.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: And we're working on ways to overcome that, but that's the that's it.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: You need someone to order you a diagnostic mammogram.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: You got lucky that we're got right in, got that diagnostic mammogram, got a biopsy.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then what did they tell you?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um well, first I want to mention my story about the radiology or the diagnostic.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was at a clinic and uh there were probably there was a it was a square room and there were probably 12 to 16 women um in there and we all had skirts around our neck, right?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: To to do the to do the mammogram.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: So instead of robe.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of a robe, it was like a skirt.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um and we were just all were kind of looking at each other and they would take a couple people out and do their scan, and sometimes the people would come back, sometimes they would leave.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and by the end of the afternoon, there were just two of us left.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then they brought me into a room.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this can't be good.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I just I actually started laughing, and she started laughing.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: We're I was like, we're not this is not good.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: This is there's like yeah, and she's like, I know, I know.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: And and then they brought me into a room with a monitor and a box of Kleenex and said, This is you need to, you need to go get this biopsy immediately and blah, blah, blah.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I I was able to share my feedback with that organization, and I don't know if anything's changed, but um, but it was a it was a wild experience.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: So then um I did, I uh I started reaching out to w organizations like Wonders and Worries and the Breast Cancer Resource Center.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um my kids at the time were 10 and 13.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: And um I I just I didn't I I am a planner, I'm a doer, I want to fix everything is kind of, you know, my has been my um go-to mode.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I had no idea how you have a conversation with a 10 and a 13-year-old that their mom has breast cancer.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: So when uh I called Wonders and Weirdies and talked to Kim, who was at the time the executive director, and now she's I think the head of the national organization.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: And she said, why don't you go see your oncologist, get the get the final word, and then I'll meet you at my office after that.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: So my husband and I got the diagnosis, stage 2B and invasive ductal carcinoma, and we went right to her office and she was waiting with open arms and sat down with us for I it was at least an hour and a half, maybe longer, where she coached us on kind of the words to use.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: She gave us um a book to walk through with the kids and and really helped them in language that they could understand.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that felt like an incredible gift that I peep I want people to know about.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: I want their that's they they were instrumental.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: My kids also did a series of workshops or a class with them.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was like a series of six or eight sessions where they got to talk about their feelings or they got to talk about, you know, they they actually went to the hospital to see what it was gonna look like when I was having my surgery.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: They talked a lot about what chemotherapy was, they, you know, all of that stuff.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I, you know they would probably tell you now that they didn't need it, but it also made me feel as a mom like I was trying I was taking action in ways to make sure they remained healthy.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, and I noticed that that's one of the first things you did as you thought about how how am I gonna tell my kids how is this gonna affect them?
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: I just think um, and again, my whole which you probably already know about me is I just need to get it done.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: I just need to move forward and make this as least painful for everyone as possible.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so talk about a little bit your treatment.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: What did you have first?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh you'll have to get tell me the word re-adjum.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Neoadjum that one.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I did four rounds of um the red devil AC, I guess.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then I was supposed to do twelve of um ta taxol, and um I ended up having some neuropathy that the doctor didn't want to he but I'll tell you that skipping one was nerve-wracking.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I was like as painful as it is to get it, it's worse.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: I I was just like, well, what if what if I don't get enough?
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and of course he's a professional.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: He tr I trusted him, but it was still again, I just wanted to circle, you know, to dot every eye and and to cross every T.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: I just wanted to be thorough.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I love the picture you showed me of you knew that you were gonna lose your hair.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's unfortunately a lot most of the breast cancer regimens that happens.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so how did you approach that?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, in uh I my we have a very big neighborhood community, um, and all the kids went to school together, and you know, my kids were the same.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we just had we have we had a ton of kids in our neighborhood, and we were all very active.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: We all celebrated Halloween together and did lots of things, and I just I had this horrible fear that the kids were gonna be afraid of me because I was gonna be bald.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I I didn't, I mean, I just I had for I couldn't stomach that.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so I tried to figure out an idea.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: And what we did is um we had a bald party and I ordered pizzas and I had a cake made that said happy bald day.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: And the kids all came over and um they brought their craft scissors, which I don't recommend.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but they brought their craft scissors and they all took turns cutting my hair off.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: What did they think of that?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think they thought it was really, I mean, I think they were a little like, huh?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, but that would we ended up having a lot of fun and and then my kids ended up doing the actual shaving of the rest of it.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think what it really helped me feel like they were not gonna be afraid of me.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: They were not, you know, I was I was not that sick, you know, that kind of thing.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: That you could make it fun.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: That was the goal.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: There was goal to just take away the the the cure the the fear, really.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's what it was.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so is your head when it's bald, is it uh smooth and good looking?
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: Is it nope?
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, it's not and I um couldn't uh the wig thing wasn't I I I couldn't do the wig thing.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't think I told you this.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: I worked for a tech company with a lot of engineers at the time, and they planned the engineers planned a surprise scarf party for me.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: These guys mostly men, right?
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh 90% men, 90% men, and two of them went to a wig store to get little skull caps.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: It was the most touching thing I've ever seen.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I ended up having just tons of scarves that I was able to give back to BCRC, but it was I I will never forget how touching that was and how they the efforts that they made to support this journey.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's amazing.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't that wild?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right, and it kind of makes me want to cry.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, me too.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: And they knew you well enough to know that that would land, that that's something that you would appreciate and value.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's really cool.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: They I think they didn't know what to think of me at first because I'm in you know, salesperson and I'm you know, I'm out I'm all there, they're just you know got heads down.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it was a little bit of an acquired taste, but but it worked wonderful.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I recall you talking about like your approach to life at this point was you're the person that takes care of everybody else.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, yep.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: Whether whether they should be allowing you to do that or not.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: Correct, that is correct.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's the only way I knew.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: The technical term is codependent.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: I was trying to be nice, but it's okay.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Therapy has uh done wonders.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, love to hear more about that.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: And and so through this, you maintain sort of that like I'm responsible for you and me and 100%.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: And who showed up for you in that?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I initially didn't want anyone to show up for me.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I initially, you know, everyone's I want to do a food train, I want to do, you know, meal train and blah blah.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, no, no, no, we don't need that.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: We're fine, we're fine.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then it became very clear to me, and and understanding when when someone is sick around me, I have to do something.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so I finally was like, okay, I'm complete fine.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: We'll do twice a week.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: We can, we can, you know, take a meal or whatever.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it ended up being a godsend.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that the people, like I had my aunt and uncle, actually, who I mentioned, um, brought in like uh basically enough food for a party, like that had catered in.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: And people were really incredibly generous, and I felt so much love and support, and it was really remarkable.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and again, just allowing that to happen was really uncomfortable for me.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because I I want I want to be the taker carer.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Take your carer over.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Over, yeah.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that was really awkward and really uncomfortable.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: But um, but yeah.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: But you grew from it.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: I did, I did.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Boy, my friends say I'm I'm now I'm the dub 2.0 from that experience.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think it's just a lot of other things, and just really um, really just wanting to make sure everyone else was comfortable and everyone else, you know, I that that was always a priority for me as opposed to, you know, what I needed.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: And if you don't mind talking a little bit about that, what did therapy teach you about why that is that allowed you to maybe think differently?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, I will be really candid with you.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: I have um I have two, well, there's four daughters.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, two of us are genetic and two of us are adopted.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: I my my sister, I'm one of the genetics.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I also one of my sisters is schizophrenic.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: And she had her first episode when she was 11.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: And or I'm sorry, when I was eleven.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: And um my life changed beyond repair, you know, you know, I ended up having to take care of everything for myself and for the rest of the family, and for, you know, I just I just that was my role.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that was and I I grew up with that.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I I think I also, well, I I know, it it it made me feel good about myself.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: It was very um, that's how I received, um, that's how I uh that's well was love to me.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's how I I gave and and that was it.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: That was your identity.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: I was not good or okay unless I was helping helping and taking care of.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 100%.
• 13:47
  unknown: Wow.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then how were you able to think differently or have you been able to think differently?
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Oh gosh, yeah.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: What is dub 2.0 like?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, dub 2.0, one of the things we talked about is like what would you cut, you know, in the spirit of just cut it out.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I have this with all this therapy, I have created boundaries.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I don't need to take care of everyone anymore.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: I it's still my instinct.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's still my first, you know, I'm gonna be in Minnesota.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: I should help my mother-in-law with her her uh will, because I'm the person that does all that.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I can say, wait, no, there are other people that can help her with that.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it my first instinct is generally to to step in, and I think I've really, I hopefully still have done a better job of saying no and and really being comfortable with that.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: It because it's not quite there yet, but yeah.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: But awareness is so powerful, just when you recognize that instinct to to go and do something and you're like, wait, yeah, yeah.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um I don't need to do that to be okay.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's really I mean, that's been the biggest change.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it's um it's everything from again, did I really need to make sure the kids weren't afraid of me?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Did I really, you know, like uh kind of thinking about my whole history, it's just c it's just how I operated.
• 15:07
  unknown: Yeah.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, going back after the chemo and after accepting help through all that, you then came to surgery and you had some choices, right?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: I did, yeah.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: I had um I definitely had to have a single mastectomy.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and um because the tumor was, you know, in my nipple and not it needed to be a single mastectomy, but it I was like, no, I'm I want to have a double mastectomy.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: My doctor was very clear, you don't have to do that, statistically speaking.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what cancer is so interesting to me, because it's all statistics, it's all numbers.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it's and I was like, I I'm not why would I keep it?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's done its job.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: I've nursed two children, I've you know, I've done they've done their work, I I'm I can be done with them.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I just really I I couldn't imagine and again part of that was for kids for the kids, and you know, because I just my brain was very much and I've told you that in hindsight, 13 years later, um and no one was gonna talk me out of it, that's for sure.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I really wish I would have done a single mastectomy.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I was shared with you um probably TMI for a lot of people, but you lose half your sex organs when you have a double mastectomy.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I I didn't realize the effect that that was gonna have and how it's um you know I'm not connected to them in any way.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: They're you know, so it's a very it's a weird because you lost sensation to the skin.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: So that um and sometimes even women will have injury like burn injuries or cold injuries because they don't realize I was in the day where the you they put the muscle the you know, and I know we they do it differently now, um, where they can put it on top of the muscle.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that would be a lot more comfortable.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: But um but anyway, I I think for the the it really did change my sex life with my husband.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not and and not for the better.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: So even though you wish you had done different, you're saying that there's nothing that anyone could have said to 13 years ago you that would have changed that.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: No, and I and I do one of the things we talked about is I do hope people realize that it's not, I mean, it is to you know, I should I should have made a different decision, but it I didn't, and it's too late now.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: And um, but I hope other people really consider.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: I also was there are people that you know just want a lump deck lumpectomy, and uh not that that was a choice for me, but I couldn't imagine just doing a lumpectomy.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I was literally like, no, I want it off, I want it gone.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, and I think too, it's also interesting because they were able to tell with the kind of chemotherapy I did, they just were watching the tumor shrink and shrink and shrink.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so again, why that didn't provide me more um confidence in doing one, I I don't know.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: But I try hard to translate the data, the statistics into actionable, meaningful information for patients of all different health literacy levels, and that becomes really challenging sometimes when I I mean patients who don't even really understand what cancer is.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you haven't known somebody or if you you know language barriers and things like that.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, right.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and it is hard to use words that take those statistics because really for the patient it's either zero or a hundred.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's a lot, and I was overwhelmed, and I was, you know, um you know, you're of course you're just overwhelmed.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I will mention the breast cancer resource center um because I was able to, and they I think they even told me you don't have to do both, Deb.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but um, but I was able to get a patient navigator and again just really helped me through the whole process.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I spent we had a um, I was in there was a group, it's the they call it now the under 45s, I think, but um, it was for young women.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: But we had women that were in their 20s and you know, like early 20s, um, that had all been diagnosed.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: And um, but we had like it was a support group meeting that was really, really helpful.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, and I stayed on even after I was um even after I kind of was going done with the process because I really wanted for people to to you know hear that you can get through it.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I had a I think I did have a le a little bit of an easier experience with the whole thing than I'm just physically than a lot of people.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's definitely a range of of the impact of side effects on it.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: And did you work through when you yeah?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: I was taking a call when the uh uh from the hospital bed when I was about to get my port put in.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: My goodness.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: And did you keep working through that because that gave you like a sense of normalcy or identity?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: Court, yeah.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's what I hear a lot.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I didn't um I started working like I started a little babysitting company um when I was 13 and I had never not worked until uh I took the the my leave for the surgery.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't take any leave for I don't think I think I probably could have, you know, taken some more leave, but it was nice to just be in the habit.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um and at the time we were doing huge conferences and trade shows, and I actually, you know, went bald out to some of those and with my scarves.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: But you had many?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I did.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: I did.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, well, so we've touched on this, but just to kind of bring out what you think is most important, what how has your experience with cancer made you think differently about what it means to live a good life?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, if I think for a long time, again, kind of understanding what when I started recognizing what I was putting everything in front of me, I that started to kind of change things.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I think I mentioned to you I I have a motto, um, and it's always go to the show.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so I uh, you know, I went with a bunch of friends to see a bunch of Broadway shows, and you know, I mean, I always I call it the cancer card, you know, I've had cancer.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: I can I I get to go to I'm gonna do that.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so I just went a couple weeks ago was in Seattle for a show and have well, my daughter and I went to Harry Styles in Amsterdam uh in May.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Neat.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I don't I don't say no.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: So travel, music, and family.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: What a perfect trip.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it was really it was amazing, and um yeah, so it I I definitely um I always go to the show um unless there's some huge reason I can't.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um because life is really way too short.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: Life is short for for everyone, yeah.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: And the cancer makes you realize that, yeah.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you also Took this energy, this experience, and channeled it into starting a nonprofit.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to hear more about that.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: I um it it is, you know, it's out there.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's uh it's not I I've got a lot more work to do on it, but I do work full-time, so it's kind of a little bit of a balance.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I had a dear friend whose niece uh was diagnosed with triple negative breast cancer uh a few years ago and uh was able to introduce her to breast cancer resource center.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um and she uh very we were all very close.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: We all we celebrated all our holidays together and um and she passed away and it was uh her last name is Macklin Woods, and so it's the organization is called the Macklin Woods Grief Resource Center.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um and for better or for worse, I've had uh I I you you know I'm an event planner, but I've planned way more funerals than I have weddings.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I just happen to have uh, for whatever reason, a skill set that allows me, it has allowed me to like sort of figure out the way things work.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um and the the idea of this resource center is number one, I really want people to prepare.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like I really think we have to, we're all going to die.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: And and we need to not, we need to not think we're jinxing anything.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: We need, you know, we need to go ahead and make the plans.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think I mentioned my aunt and uncle have all their assets outlined.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: They've got everything figured out.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, what do you want for a funeral?
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, Oh, we've never thought about that.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Well, we gotta talk about that because my aunt's Jewish and we do what do we need to do?
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what does all that look like?
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not only just like the funeral and the end of life things, but it's also it happens so often where um in the military, for example, let's just say for stereotypical purposes, the the husband dies.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the wife doesn't know how to file the social for his social security.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of questions about how how are I getting groceries this week?
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: I've got no more money coming in.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what does that all look like?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I I want to be a resource for for those sorts of emergencies as well.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: So um it it is, it's also including counseling, uh, grief counseling.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I uh have been attending a uh bereavement conference at Baylor Scott and White for the past, they do it um every other year.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that came out of um the bereavement conference is it never occurred to me that you can't have grief therapy for um someone that dies of cancer after a long, long illness and someone that has committed suicide and someone that is in a car wreck.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: That there's a very different kind of counseling and a different kind of and I don't, I it just I make when you say it out loud, it makes perfect sense.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but there are really I mean, especially in suicides, there are when people die by suicide, it is really uh it's a critical time and it's you you can't just compare it to someone that that's been the long term ill, long for ill for a long the long term.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so I think that that you know I really want to be able to provide the different kinds of counseling, whether it's also for you know young people and you know people in different parts of their life.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: So those are things um, you know, like I said, besides funeral planning, which is which is something I'm sadly good at.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you mentioned something that there are potential for certain I don't know, predatory is the right word, but this was something that I did not know about and maybe people listening might also not know about.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: I um so I I we had a a dear friend um that's husband was just finishing throat cancer treatment and somehow he was given a second fentanyl patch.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: So she took her boys to their cross-country meet and got home and he was dead.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so we got the call.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: She sh I mean, what do you do when you once your husband is dead?
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like in, I mean, it was wild.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so we went, you know, obviously ran over there immediately.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: And um it, you know, uh when someone dies, I guess, uh, I don't know if this is Texas, but if someone dies without hospice in the home, the but the medical examiner has to come.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: And this was a Saturday.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so, and and not only that, but you have to we have to have a funeral home, come get the body, or some other agency get the body has to be removed from the house.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: And um, she hadn't, I mean, obviously, you know, he was 50, so there was really no plan in place for any of that.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so I immediately on the phone with um, you know, a church saying, Hey, what who what funeral home is good around here?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: What does this all look like?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, waiting for the medical examiner to come.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, it was just, and and so we we found the funeral home, and so we went to meet with them the next day.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: And she said, I just want everything the best.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, and and at this point, you know, she's she had been a stay-at-home mom.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was like, time out, time out.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: We're not, let's not say that right now.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: Let's look through this because I had no idea what their financial situation was, and it wasn't the time for me to ask.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it turned out to be perfectly fine.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, we we ended up, you know, they bought they brought an urn.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: The urn they brought was um uh a gun, I don't know, some ammo box or something.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: He was a big hunter.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so we were able to like really do things that were more personal for him that were more like him, than you know, spend a ridiculous amount of money on a casket or an urn or whatever that was gonna look like.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so we were able, I just I just needed to know that she wasn't gonna be taken advantage of.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I think as a salesperson, you know, I just want everything best.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I can work with that, you know.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: But when someone's grieving, it's it's not it's not the time.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it's um, you know, the the guest books at funeral homes are like$300.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, we can go to Michael's.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, so there were any number of things, but and they ended up making it much more personal and much more the the service and everything much more meaningful.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I don't I'm not saying every funeral home is predatory at all.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but there are situations where people take out significant loans for funerals and they can take it out through the funeral home, and the interest rates can be exorbitant.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that's take, I mean, to me, that's I I I mean, I I don't would I have no names or anything, but I just know that that's a practice that's to me very unethical uh and really uh difficult at a at a hard time.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: Very hard time.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's uh it sounds like a wonderful resource, and um we'll put links to your website in our um Thank you uh podcast page so people can find out more information.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: All right, well, and then um the spirit of just cut it out, what's something that you just cut out after realizing through the lens of a cancer journey that it just was not what mattered most?
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, take taking care of everyone.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's I that had to that had to stop and or be reduced by a significant amount.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that was definitely something I cut out.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think also yeah, just generally trying to take advantage of living life.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: So cutting out the I need to work uh 90 hours a week, you know, in order to feel like a good employee or whatever, I I definitely have created a much better work-life balance.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so that you can go to the show.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: I can go to the gotta go to the show.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's wonderful.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: I I absolutely subscribe to that philosophy as well.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: Travel while you're while you can, while you have your health, while you have family to go with you.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what question would you like to ask me?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I have a couple, but the first one I'm gonna ask is um did you always know you wanted to be a doctor or slash surgeon?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: Or is there anything else that if you had to do it over again you would consider?
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I always knew growing up that I loved science.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: I was so curious about everything, um, almost to a fault.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I loved like anatomy class in high school.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I was paired with uh a girl we we were dissecting animals.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: She was uh a model and was going to do modeling after high school.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so she wanted nothing to do with the dissections, and I just thought they were the coolest thing ever.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: So um I didn't have anyone medical in my family, so but I just kind of knew medicine and I doctor seemed like the role that made sense, even though I looking back, I'm like, I had no idea what a doctor was, but um, and you know, learned a little bit more about that in in college.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I just uh k knew that I liked science and I tried research and I didn't like research.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it healthcare seemed like the way to go.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: You seem like you need interaction with people um as a part of your instead of just data.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a hard thing to say, like back then if I couldn't do medicine, what I would have done, and I honestly don't know.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: Now I hon I really think uh it's just come to be so clear to me that managing our own stuff inside, our thoughts, our feelings, our processing the things that happen to us that from from childhood that show up in ways that we don't even understand as an adult until we take time, like you said, to do therapy um and and do that work uh is now I just think the core to all of human experience.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so right now, if I could go back as who I am right now with my understanding, I I think I might have gone down um you know either a social worker counselor route or a psychology route and just been so fascinated to learn about the way our brains work.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's um I mean there's so much research now.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: What is that, the you the body doesn't forget or what's that book called?
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the body keep score?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, body keep score and and all of the I mean, and yeah, and then you've got the whole generational trauma thing and you've got you know all that all the buzzwords, but it's it's I I really believe that um you know how you think about things affects the outcome.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: Very much.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then it all starts with what you choose to pay attention to.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: The attention is like the foundation of of our whole experience as humans, and and you have more control over what you pay attention to than I think sometimes we realize.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it's it's um that's really fascinating because I do think I I mean yeah, I mean that's that's I haven't actually thought about it that way.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's it it's been very powerful for me um to become aware of what I'm paying attention to and redirecting when I start.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: My tendency would be to pay attention to my thoughts and my fears or anxiety or worries, and that's just not productive time unless I'm gonna do something about it, unless I'm trying to solve a problem, like you said, and move forward, but like ruminating on, you know, what is so-and-so think about me, or this person has a better life on Facebook than I feel like I have.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like these are all things that are super easy to get hold into and they're just not they're not productive.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think too, one of the things that I've cut out is um is under well, I'm not about cutting out, but I no longer think about things I cannot change.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, and that has been a really big like I I really I've come to be more realistic about, you know, I I I see that that you're mad at me and I'd love to talk through that, but I can't change the way you feel.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like I, you know, you and I'm I'm really learning that I don't I don't have any control of anyone but me.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: That is so powerful.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it's I mean, and it, you know, from the kids to the, you know, to the spouse to the whatever, I, you know, I can only do me.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that has been uh a late r realization.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's the wisdom of age.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yes, as they as the kids say, I am today years old when I realize that the only thing I can control is what I say, what I do, what I think, what I feel.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's a life-changing observation.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: It it really is.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: It really, really is.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this has been an amazing conversation.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: I could talk to you for hours.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: I could talk to you for hours.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I appreciate your taking time to be on Just Cut It Out.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, thank you.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: All right, well, thank you for joining us for this episode of Just Cut It Out.