Latest / The Steep Stuff Podcast / #102 - Jackson Cole

Transcript

#102 - Jackson Cole · The Steep Stuff Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up, fam?
• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, james Lauriello, coming to you guys with a really exciting episode.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: I'm joined today again by Mr Jackson Cole.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Jackson comes back on the podcast after about a year and we catch up on all things sky running.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: We talk about the canyons, 100k, talk about a lot training theory, what his trainings looked like and all kinds of fun stuff and personal FKT projects.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: Jackson's probably best known for being one of the most talented athletes on the world Skyrunner scene.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Obviously he's a New Zealander residing now by way of Missoula, montana.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: He's training with the likes of Mr Adam Peterman and Jeff McGavro.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: We kind of got into that training dynamic and what was that like and what that has been like, kind of training out of that town with those elite athletes as well.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: And we talked about some of the Skyrunner series races we talked about deep into meet the Minotaur, which is one of Jackson's favorite races.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: This will be the fourth time and so it'll be the fourth time he'll be racing it.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: He'll be going out in a couple of weeks to go throw down out there, which is one of the most, in my opinion, one of the most exciting and compelling courses in all of North America.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: If you haven't checked it out yet, highly recommend.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: We talked about the Grand Teton and the Grand Teton FKT whether that's still on Jackson's radar, whether that's on anybody's radar at this point, given the circumstances around that precarious mountain.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: We talked about some really badass personal fkt projects that jackson will get into.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Uh, that he'll be doing kind of with a team.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Uh, that sounds just like super fun.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Uh, that's going to take place in the cascades.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: Um.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: And very last but not least, we talked about worlds in the world mountain running.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: Uh championship, which jackson will be competing at later this year in september in the pyrenees.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: So, guys, I really hope you enjoyed this one.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Jackson is not just a teammate of mine, he's a friend, one of the most inspiring and compelling like his.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: His approach to the sport is just very inspiring to me.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: I love the way his style is and how he approaches things.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: He's even had this quote on his Instagram I just want to drink beer and train.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Like it's just like such a blue collar way of approaching the sport and I just love it.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: Like it's the purest.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: His approach is just one of the purest ways to attack the sport and fitness.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: So, guys, I hope you enjoy this one.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: If you don't already follow Jackson, give him a follow Without further ado.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: None other than Jackson Cole.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: It's time.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, we are live, jackson Cole.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: How are you, buddy?
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: Jackson Cole.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: How are you, buddy?
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: Hey, good man, it's good to chat again.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: It's been probably a little over a year since we last talked.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot has happened.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: I know man Stoked to have you back on.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: You went after 100k since the last time I saw you, which is kind of crazy.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: You tried to do the whole ultra thing.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: And then you've been training with uh adam peterman and jeff mcgavra, which we got to talk about there's.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: There's a lot to dive into, man.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: Um, maybe let's start us off with uh kind of what you've been up to, maybe in the last year.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: Maybe like summarize, give us the five minute elevator speech on, like you know, maybe talk about minotaur and kind of what you did last season yeah, um, last season was full focus on the sky running world series.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: Um, I ended up traveling a lot, uh, which maybe was a mistake in hindsight.
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: I was in south america, mexico, all over europe, um in canada and uh got a little burnt out travel-wise.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: But as far as racing went, it was a pretty good season.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I had a good race at Minotaur last year, second to Scott and had a big PR on that course, so that was a positive.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: Then had a good race, a couple couple good races out in europe, um, at the meta horn, all tracks, and then at the sky running world champs, um, and uh then also had some cool efforts, like in the grand canyon, um, and on bora peak.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: But uh, all the successes.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: Also had uh, there are a few failures in there as well um, some sickness overseas.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: Uh hindered some race results and then took some pretty big fall or a one big fall at a race in spain which really sucked.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: But yeah, it was a real yin and yang season.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: Some some real positives to take from it, some negatives, but ultimately, um, I feel like I'm in a good place right now.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: I had a good winter and, uh, super psyched for well, the minotaur now is coming up in uh, three weeks, so I'm getting really psyched for that, and just the snow is melting here in montana and, um, yeah, I'm just getting really psyched to get outside now.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: So nice man, nice I.
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: It's funny, I have one of my training partners and best friends, uh, brad Barrett's, getting ready for Minotaur.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: It's like his first, uh big, first sky race and first like overseas race.
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: I've been trying to like help him like kind of game plan and figure out, like how to just get some specificity in for that race and and it's just such a cool course, man.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: So bananas, so this will be what your third or fourth time running this, this will be my fourth time.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: Fourth time, okay, oh, you must be so stoked, let's.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about a racing stimulus then.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: So this past weekend you just raced the Sentinel Hill climb.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: It looked like you, adam Peterman and Jeff McGavro killed each other to get to the top.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we, we really did, yeah, yeah.
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such a cool.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: I mean it's so funny because it's a low-key event, just the up Mount Sentinel, which is the mountain that we run up almost every day.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: But, yeah, so competitive because you're racing guys like Adam Peterman and Jeff, and not to mention the slew of other guys and gals in Mozilla who just totally crush it.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: And, yeah, adam beat me by over a minute, which is always humbling, but Jeff and I really we had to.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: I had to really gut out to to get ahead of jeff at the end.
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: Wow, he was on my heels and we're going back and forth on the climb.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, just brutal and it's.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: You know, it was the race started at 6 pm and it was maybe like 80 something degrees.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, just super tough.
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: But uh, good to get back at it.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: And, um, yeah, it's always a good stimulus to go really hard on Mount Sentinel.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: Oh man, that's a tough climb.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: So you've been in Missoula now for about a year, right?
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been here um about a year and a half, I think.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: Maybe talk about cause.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: It's just such a unique training environment, such a beautiful place, but also a unique training environment given the fact that you've got so many world-class athletes to be able to like key off of and train with and be able to just kind of see where you're at personally.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: What is it like training with them, especially like adam, because you've probably seen adam through the kind of the highs and the lows over his career in the last few years.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: Like what has that been like?
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: oh, yeah, yeah, definitely um.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because I mean, when I moved here last year, adam was just coming off of basically having not run for six months with his stress fracture.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's awesome training with those guys and I think one thing that I've found is the motivation stays really high because, you know, just for instanceff ran like 160 miles last week and you see that and you're like man, I gotta up my game, or at least it just motivates you to get outside on a day that you don't really want to um, and then at the same time, everyone it's not a, you know, I've been in places where there can be a bit of a toxic um environment surrounding performance and training and you like push a little bit too hard when, uh, I don't know how to describe it, but like living in a place like boulder or salt lake city, I think could be really tough in that sense because the environment's a little more I don't know competitive, a little more cutthroat um.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: But in missoula everyone is so low-key here and it's kind of helpful that you have uh, you know, when somebody like adam and jeff, who are two of the best in the world, are just so cool and low-key and just happy to be out there.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: There's no, no, like, uh, um, yeah, there's no competition and training.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: You know, we're just out there enjoying it and getting the best out of ourselves.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: So, um, it's a.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: The best way I can describe it is it's just a really positive atmosphere here, um, and everyone really gets along, and there are a lot of people here who, um, really crush it and no one knows who they are, especially in the mountains.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: Here, everyone it's kind of a montana thing to be really quiet about what you do and, um, so that's the difference.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: Like coming from colorado, I feel like there's a lot more presence online and people talk about stuff they do a lot more frequently, and in here you kind of meet these people.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: You don't know much about them and then when you slowly start to learn from other people what they've done, you're like, oh, wow, like that's really crazy, um, and there's a lot of people like that.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: So it's sort of humbling and keeps you humble and also pushes you to train harder at some sometimes sangre and the sangre mountains are just so insane, would do you say?
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: would you say you like mizola better from a training perspective?
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: Like, is it just easier to get bigger volume into the mountains?
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: Is there a lot more to like?
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't say more to do, but is it easier on the body, especially being a little bit lower elevation?
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: Like, what would you say as far as like what's better or what's worse?
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: yeah, that's a good question.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: Um, in alamosa it was interesting because the the access was great, but you would have to drive pretty far regardless, um, so that's been the biggest positive is that from my doorstep I can run and get on trails, uh, within five minutes, so I don't have to drive too often, which is really nice.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: Um, the trade-off is that, um, the access to the alpine is a little harder.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: Here you have to drive a little bit further, um, and there's no altitude, but, um, yeah, generally missoula it.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: It's access is incredible, uh, especially for trail running, um, and things like gravel biking.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: And you know, in the winter I can drive 15 minutes and be at um Marshall mountain, which is a old local ski Hill that's closed but still open for access to back country skiing.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: Um, and so when I lived in Alamosa, I'd have to drive to um Wolf Creek to do any schema stuff, um, and here it's the excesses, yeah, it's incredible.
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: So the amount I've been able to train has increased dramatically in the past two years.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: Um, but Alamosa something I'm glad that that was where I started trail running, because it's so rugged and so rough.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: Running on Lake Como Road up to Blanca Basin was where I would train most, and that's just a rugged place to train.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: Terrible road, terrible road, just full of boulders and ankle twisters.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: Um.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: So yeah, and one thing as well is, in alamosa I was just training by myself every day.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: I think I there's a stretch of over a year where I don't think that I ran with anyone, or maybe like one or two people, so that's been maybe a little bit more of an adjustment here.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: Training with guys like Adam and Jeff all the time, I sometimes have to make sure that I don't overdo it, because those guys train really hard and are really good runners and sometimes it's easy to get sucked in a little bit training with him too often and I have to step back and do my own thing every now and then.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: Um, but uh, ultimately missoula has been a huge positive for my trail running.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: Um, alamosa was a fun place to be and I'm glad I got to experience the sun graze in that way.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: Um, to get to like know a mountain range so well, um, and I think it's made me a pretty competent mountain scrambler because the sun gray is just.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: It's like heaven, man, oh yeah, you get into the crest and everything is just so much good scrambling on good rock and I've been able to use those uh experiences to go into ranges in mont in Montana and feel a little more confident in the back country here.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: So because it's the thing, it's one of those things, interesting things like I don't know too much about Montana, but I've read so.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: For instance, like I remember when Anton had, he wrote very extensively about some of the like I think it was I can't remember it was granite or gannet, what that backcountry peak is, but he was comparing Wyoming and Montana to some of the approaches in colorado and just like how much further back everything is, how much more remote things are in those states.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: Um, it's just interesting to me because in colorado everything is kind of right in your face, like you can get to it relatively, like every 14 or so a half marathon?
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: essentially it's not yeah that bad so yeah, there is a lot more wilderness out here.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: Um and uh, oftentimes, if you want to get at least in the, the ranges that I typically run in um being the bitter root and the the mission mountains usually there's a decent amount of bushwhacking just to access the alpine you'll have a trail that goes to an alpine lake or a lake that's maybe not quite in the alpine yet, um, so it's often, uh, really slow going, but I think it makes you really strong.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: Um and one.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: One thing that's been interesting is the.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: The grading scale here is, I found, quite different.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: Where in colorado, something that's been interesting is the.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: The grading scale here is, I found, quite different.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: Where in colorado, something that's considered fourth class would be like, um, or a better example would be something that's considered fourth class in montana would be like a five, five, five, six route.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: In colorado, montana, fourth class is no, anyone that comes out here to climb something that's fourth class, just be ready to honestly bring a rope or something for rappels, cause it's yeah, it's a different different story out here.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: It's full on, yeah.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let me ask you this.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: So your style, obviously, the races that you love to do, and what you've done been doing the last few years is more of the Skyrunner world series races.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: It's just interesting to me, Like, would you say maybe this is a little more repetitive from the question that I kind of asked before, but would you say it's a better training ground for you for more specific, like specificity, is there better things that you can get there, cause I feel like it's a little bit lower elevation, right, so you can.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: Power is different, like there's different things that you can maybe reap the benefits of, because a lot of the Skyrunner races outside of South America are probably lower altitude, right, they're not at 14,000 feet generally, other than a few.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that that's a great point, um.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: In Missoula I've been able to do a lot more threshold type training, um, and I don't know if that's because I didn't grow up at altitude, so I was struggling to the the volume and altitude is fine, um, but when I added intensity I'd always feel like I would have to spend a week recovering from those sessions.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: But in missoula we're at 3 000 feet, so it's basically sea level.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: Um, I feel like I can do at least one session every week and feel like I can continue to train really hard and keep a high volume.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: Um, in alamosa I don't, I just didn't do many workouts because I just couldn't handle it.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Um, being alamosas at 7 500 feet, um, the terrain is a little rougher than running on trails here.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I think the specificity for sky running races and the thing that I've probably it's been my weakest, it's been the thing that I've struggled with the most has been the climbs in sky racing is like, for example, last year at the Minotaur, scott Patterson, who's the O2 max, is through the roof.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: Probably it's Olympic Nordic skier.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: Um, he was catching me on all of the climbs.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: There are like three major climbs and he would catch me every time, um, and then put a gap on me and then I would eventually catch him on the descents.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: Um, but uh, so that's something I feel like I've worked on a ton, especially this winter training with adam and jeff and erin and all those, all those guys and gals, um, just adding in threshold training on the flats and on climbs.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: So I feel like I'm at least based off of.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: You know, if I'm using Mount Sentinel as a metric, my PR last year was just under 21 minutes and then this year I was able to break 20 minutes on the climb.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: So I've definitely gotten better in that sense that um don't know what the physiology is there exactly, but um, I'm, I'm fitter in that sense.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: I don't know that I'm fitter in the sense that I can.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: I can still just go for long days in the mountains, um, but I do think that my, my uphill speed is better.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: My VO2 max has increased, I suppose.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: Not sure, but it gives me a lot of confidence and I'm excited to test it out this year at some Sky races.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, and you're right that none of them are really at altitude, especially when you're racing in, like I'll race in Spain this year and I'll race in Canada, and the high point of those races are like 7 000 feet I think it's not bad at all.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, when you compare it to at least it's not 11 000.
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: So yeah, no, you definitely.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: There's a bit of advantage there I just find it really interesting.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: I let me ask you this too, not to I I know I'm like harping on the um on the training piece.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: I I'm just so curious because I love training theory.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: Adam and Jeff run completely different distances.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: It was really interesting to me to see you go line up and run canyons this wrong, like dude, you could have very well gotten a golden ticket on that day.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: So like the training that you're doing, like things are obviously working, obviously it seems like your first love and you can tell me if this is the truth but like it seems like your first love is more of the sky running.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: How do you mix up the training with them Because they run such long stuff Like their, their style almost is completely different than something like a skyrunner series, if you will yeah, I think, um, you know right now, uh, we're pretty different in what we're training for, um, but this, this earlier in the spring and throughout some of the winter also, we were able to um train together quite a bit um, they are so much more efficient at running on like rolling terrain and flat trails, um, which is something that part of the reason signing up for canyons this year was to switch up the stimulus a little bit.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: It became really apparent to me last year that I had a huge weakness and that I was very inefficient in my running stride, and so I noticed it actually at the rut because the rut finishes with quite a long stretch of dirt road, and I was pretty close to johnny um coming down lone peak and then I think he beat me by like 10 minutes um at the end of the day, so he put basically 10 minutes on me on that flat road section and I was kind of like huh, that's, you know it.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: Not every race is minotaur, you know there are.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: There are other races that I want to be competitive at that aren't all extremely mountainous, and so the Canyons block of training that I had from March through April was really, I think, just to gain back what I felt like I had lost, which was some more biomechanics, uh, my running economy, um, and then just being able to train with him, uh, doing some, uh, some long runs.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: You know, I would link up with Adam and Jeff and do these 30 mile long runs, which was really challenging because they were, you know, know, when I do long runs in the mountains, there's so much hiking involved yeah and doing 30 miles around missoula is a totally different stimulus.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: And uh, it did it.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: Inevitably it did kind of ruin my achilles, but uh it's, it was good to, it was just good to try, and I'm glad that I tried and uh put myself out there.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: Um, I'm glad the way, the way that I raced it, I just went for it, um, and I'm happy that I did that.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: As opposed to um sticking back and um racing conservatively, I wanted to just go for it, you know, and dude save money, don't make money, man, I was.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: I was cheering the whole way jackson's gonna get a golden ticket yeah yeah and oh, man, I I found out, I definitely found out.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: That was, that was rough, um, but uh, cool also, just to race all these people that I never get a chance to.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: Um, canyons was extremely competitive this year.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: Um, and I mean I think I raced some people that I've never even raced before, uh, which just the nature of of sky running not really being available in the U S, uh, so yeah, that was.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: That was cool too, just to see, maybe, how I stacked up against those guys.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: I mean, they all beat me at the end of the day because I dropped out, but um, it's, it's.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: It was a fun uh, just different to uh train for and and and run that race.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: It was a cool experience, but, and I feel like there's a lot of fitness that I gained from that block of training that I don't think I otherwise I don't think I would have trained that hard had I not had canyons on the calendar.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: So that was a real positive.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: Um, if I'm going to bring a positive away from it, it was that I uh became a more efficient runner and, um, I'm definitely fitter now because of it and I can I can feel it when I train in the mountains now that I'm I'm in a really good spot this early in the season, so I love to hear it.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: Man, let me ask.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: I have two questions for you.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: One do you think you think you would go back and do something like that again, given another time?
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: No, Okay, if you would have gotten the golden ticket because you were, you were damn close, dude what, uh, would you have taken it or would you've?
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: no, there was never a I.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: I'd been asked that question so many times and no, I, I wouldn't have taken a ticket.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: Only, the only way I would have taken a ticket would be if I had won the race and it just felt really easy for some reason.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: Then I would have been like I got to go to Western, but, um, no, I was pretty certain that I wouldn't have taken a ticket if I'd gotten it, um, just yeah, western.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: Well, it would have affected my ability to race in, uh, at the meet, the Minota Um, and I think it would just would have meant that, you know, in the last month, I've really enjoyed getting up into the Alpine this early in the spring, um, or early in the summer, and if I was training for Western States, I'd be doing something totally different and that's just not.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: Uh, what's inspiring right, inspiring me right now.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: So, no, I don't blame you I'd be remiss to ask a little bit more about the.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: Just, I understand, like it wasn't the day you wanted to have, but like I gotta ask you some questions around it, just because I'm just out of pure curiosity for myself.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: How did it unfold for you?
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: You must have felt really comfortable for most of the race, given where you were running.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: Um, at what point in time did it not feel so comfortable?
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: How was it like?
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: Because obviously ultras are so different from these sub ultra races where in sub ultra, moves are being made all the time and you have to either cover or not.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: With ultra it's a little bit different.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: Moves are much slower.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: I feel like more or less maybe talk about some of those dynamics and how that played out for in the race for you.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting, um, because uh, in basically every race that I've ran in the past three years, um, or four years, has been these shorter sky races, um, and it's even at even a four hour race from the gun.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: You're just almost redlining up the first climb, um.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: So that was a little different.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: Uh, canyon started out not slow, like we were running sub six minute miles to start out with Um, but you know it felt, it felt really comfortable, um, and so the first 30 miles of canyons are pretty, uh, pretty hilly.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: So most of the elevation gain comes in that first 30 to 40 miles and then it really flattens out towards the last uh 20, 25 miles, um.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: And so you know, my game plan going in was to sort of capitalize on that Um, and pretty early on within, you know, I was in, just I was just running with Jeff the first uh couple of hours.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: And then, you know I was in, just I was just running with Jeff the first uh couple of hours.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: And then you know the sun came up and there's a, a section where you dip down to a river and you come back up.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: So it's a, it's an out and back.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: It's like a 2000 foot descent, 2000 foot climb back up and, uh, I just decided to go for it at that moment because it was relatively steep and I figured I could gain some ground a little easier on people, just being that, um, I'm really comfortable on technical descents.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: And so that's what I did and I ended up creating this, this gap that was a little unintentional um, and came back out of that climb in the lead and I think I had maybe five minutes on, uh, anthony costales and uh and francesco poopy, um, and I held it until the first aids, first major like crew point, which was michigan bluff I think, uh, which is like mile 20 something.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: Um, and part of the part of my ignorance is that, like, I just had a friend come out to crew me and we were not very efficient and I had a two minute, so apparently I had a two minute lead on francesco before he got to that aid station and I was still like messing around with bottles and stuff like that, and he came in and left immediately and so I lost some time there and then ended up running with him for a little bit.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: So then I was in second up till Forest Hill and then a guy Hans Troyer, I think his name is ended up passing me and I felt pretty good at Forest forest hill, which is mile 30.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: Um, I remember saying to the person crewing me that I was.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: I was just lamenting the fact that I was only halfway and I felt fine.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: But, man, it's like you know I should be done now it's a really long way like this is starting to become kind of a grind, um, and then, uh, the course was became really flat.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: We were running along the river for a long time and I could just start to feel like the fatigue in my right calf and my achilles started to.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: I think just the fatigue is what caused my achilles issues in the first place and that popped up again.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: And then there's a climb up to the third major aid station uh, crew point, and I just couldn't run anymore, um, and I hiked it in and got there and I sat down for a while and then, yeah, I just I had to drop.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: I couldn't keep running, um, so it was a huge bummer, but I felt like my nutrition was pretty dialed and everything else went about as well as I could have hoped for.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: Um, ultimately, yeah, I just can't handle that training.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: I can't handle a hundred mile weeks.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: I can't handle it's not just you.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, I think anyone who's been running in the mountains a long time uh, struggles with that transition.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: Um, but yeah, it was interesting, it's just.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: It's almost.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: It really does solidify the idea that they're two different sports.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and to be good at one or the other really requires a definitive set of skills.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: Um, unless you're killian, I guess he just still is able to do adult, but yeah, killian's killing him.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: Some people are genetic outliers and adapt really well and just others just like dude I, I like it is so beyond me that Jeff ran 160 miles last week, like not only would the wheels come off, but like I just don't know, like it's so hard for me to comprehend like putting all that time and to running in one week, it's so bananas.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, I don't know.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: It's crazy to see now I was just listening to actually a pod like I think finn and jeff uh colt were talking about, just like the level and the amount of mileage people are putting in.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: Like I feel like high mileage is back in.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: It's like people went away from it and like now it's like now it's like back, feel like high mileage is back in.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: It's like people went away from it and like now it's like now it's like back in these days, which is interesting yeah, I guess, um, also with uh, this high carb fueling and the shoes that people are wearing now, it's kind of like the same phenomenon that happened on the roads and track a few years ago maybe four or five years ago where people realized they could just push the boundaries a little bit because the the gear is better, and now that super shoes are uh become, you know, I think a few years ago I would have said that it didn't matter to have a super shoe on the trails, but, um, you know, I got the prodigio pros and it's incredible how much return you get from that shoe.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: Um, just makes training a little bit easier.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: Uh, it'd be really hard if I was doing 100 miles a week in the mutants or something.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we're in the prodigio pros.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: You're like oh yeah, this shoe is really, this is a running shoe and um, so, yeah, I think, with high carb fueling, new shoe technology, um, a good coach.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you can push the boundaries like jeff and edamar and everyone else who's going to be racing western states yeah, dude, that's so interesting to me.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: I was going to ask you about the prodigio pros because I know you.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: I've seen you race.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: What the hell is the?
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: I should know this as a sportiva athlete.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: What is that thin outsole shoe that almost looks like a soccer cleat that we make?
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: Um, it's like bright yellow.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: I've seen you race in them before I just feel the cyclone.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: It might have been the no.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: No, it wasn't the cyclone.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: It it might've been the no.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: No, it wasn't the cyclone, it's another one?
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: What the hell?
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: Maybe the uh kept.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: even that's it, the captivas.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: I just have always seen you race and more like lower profile stuff, so I was kind of curious to see if you would like the pretty Gio pro.
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: I love them, but I like thick, fat running shoes.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know I'll do a few Cirque series this this year and I'll definitely use the pretty geo pro for those Cirque series races.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: I actually feel like there's there's a bit of a performance advantage running uphill on those shoes as well, like it kind of gives you a bit more spring on tired legs.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: But whether or not I'll race you know, a true mountain race and then is to be determined yeah, I'm curious, like what would you will you continue to wear maybe the cyclones or something like that for, like minotaur?
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: Like what would you wear for that?
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: I think so, but sportiva's discontinued that shoe now, so I'm kind of scrambling to think of what to use now.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: I would, I think I might use the, the mutant, okay, um, but uh, yeah, I don't know, I I would like to wear the prodigio pro, but um, and this is, you know, full, you know I'm a lot, we're last sportive athletes um, but the prodigio pro, uh, I took a few bad falls, um, trying to run steeper descents on the with the prodigio pro, and I don't know if it's because the shoe height's just different than what I'm used to, um, and if that was causing it.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: But um, yeah, I took some, some dingers, uh, training in that shoe.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: So I don't know if I feel totally confident on, like a, you know, a scree field bombing a scree field in the prodigio pro yeah um, I don't think it's it's.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: It's a durable shoe, but I just worry the stack height so much that it's a could be a little sketchy and I think I could.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: Uh, I could wear that shoe for any race, um, but I don't think I could go like full gas on a descent in that shoe.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: That wasn't like a service road or something like that, so it's funny no, you're, I, I'm gonna.
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: I was originally very skeptical.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: Do you know?
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: I finally got to play with the maxes.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: Uh, davide had a pair of the new maxes the last time I saw them.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: Those are sick too.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: But the same thing I had the same question with is the stack height gonna work for me?
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: I still have not fallen in them or twisted an ankle.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: I had a feeling, I had like a worry that I was gonna crack an ankle um in the pros, but I haven't done it yet.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, granted, I haven't ran three weeks, but that said, even before then I was training months in those shoes and I hadn't done it.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I don't know.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: I'm very curious if you do run in the mutants, because the mutants scare me, because I have wide feet, it's like I'm always worried about the stability and twisting an ankle, cause I have cracked an ankle a couple of times in the mutants.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: They're great for uphill, I feel like, or for anything hiking to grasp it, but descending it's a very precise shoe for descending.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: So I feel like if I open up stride, I'm worried that I'm going to like roll an ankle.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: It's an interesting shoe.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: I think I almost likely race the Minotaur and an old pair of cyclones, um, but I, I think, yeah, I think it will be the mutant.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: Um, I just wish the mutant had a built in gator.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: Like the prodigio pro, is this really nice sock uh.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: Sort prodigio pro, is this really nice sock uh sort of grasping your ankle.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: Um, I wish all shoes just had that dude.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: I feel like we need to change the patent on all of our shoes now and just have they should just put that gator on everything.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, why not?
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: yeah, yeah yeah, it is awesome.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: It's so nice spirit company.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, clutch all right, let's, let's get into minotaur a little bit.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: I've been dying to ask you about this.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: So, like you said, this is your fourth time.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: Going back, you've had so many amazing finishes, including winning the damn race.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: Like, what is it about this race that you love so much?
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: Uh, what is it so captivating?
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: I still have not been.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: It's on the, it's on the list, but oh, man, you, you have to come out at some point.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just so cool.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: Canadian mountain runners are really inspiring.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: The more that I've done that race and met people up in Canada, just the more I've grown to really like that community of people.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: They're all so kind and and hardcore at the same time.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: Uh, yeah, the canadian mountain running scene is probably similar to the alaskan mountain running scene where it's all really really hard.
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: Uh, you know hard trails, um, off trail, true mountain running, almost more similar to it really does feel sometimes like, uh, fast and light alpinism.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: Um, obviously, the minotaur is not that technical, not like alpinism, but it is like a good mountain runner in canada really does showcase like skills in the alpine and, um, I don't know, just that race has, uh, become really special.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: Uh, I'm gonna head out there earlier this year just to help set up the course and I just want to meet more people surrounding that race.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: And uh, yeah, I don't know something about it, it's just such a cool course and um, yeah, it's, it's real proper mountain running, which I appreciate.
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really hard to find that, um, in the us and anywhere in the world really outside of, uh, outside of europe yeah, it's crazy, man.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: This is a hot, hotly debated topic.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: Finn started world war three online this like a week and a half ago because he said something about the wilderness act and people got really sensitive over it because they were talking about like ultra trail, snowdonia and how those mountains are just so beautiful, and because of the wilderness act in the states.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: Obviously this opens up a whole other conversation.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: But because the wilderness act, obviously we can't have races in certain wilderness areas of the united states, some of the most beautiful areas, and it just started like a conversation about it and it got the wheels turning in my head.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: I was thinking, like man, like I wonder, like I wish there would have been more opportunities for us to have some races in wilderness areas, just because there are so many amazing and beautiful areas.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: Like, do you even think about, like if we put on like a song gray sky race, right, like how sick would something like that be?
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: Or really any?
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: There's so many areas in the States not just Colorado but wherever you could have just like really full on sky running or mountain races that we just can't do right now.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: Just kind of crazy.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's a blessing and a curse, because the one thing that I find is missing from Europe is that sense of wilderness.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, although I will say, with the caveat being that I've only really been to like Zermatt and Chamonix and the sort of meccas of trail running and alpinism, so I don't know that my examples are great.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: You know, maybe there really truly is wilderness to be found in Europe, but that hasn't been my experience.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: Um, whereas in even in Colorado, where it's so built up, there are truly wild places still in existence.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: Um, but I don't know that having adding a race to a wilderness area doesn't mean that it's going to become less wild.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: It just means that, for a brief moment in time, there'll be 300 people moving through that area at one time, which I think some people might see as being like kind of destructive to the environment or something.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: But, um, yeah, uh, man, I have some opinions, but I'll try to keep them to myself.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: I was gonna go with the Michelino conversation eventually, but I don't know if we yeah well, it's just so unfortunate because, now, you know, I was thinking about the most prestigious, or the speed records that are really sought after are oftentimes in an area like a national park, which is, you know, extremely strict wilderness regulations.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: In those places, um, it's just so unfortunate because they are, um, so heavily protected and then, at the same time, they're so crowded and it feels like we are ignoring the real issue, being that, um, you know, these crowded places are really just for, you know, it's a capitalist society in the states and people are profiting off of yeah wild places.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: And then you know, with the michelino situation is totally fucked.
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: That's such bullshit, so crazy.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: But uh, you know, that's just one of many examples where it seems really arbitrary.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know.
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you this I'm going to go one more deeper.
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: As someone that's trained there heavily and possibly wants that record at some point in time, or might have gone for it, are you do you think you'll go back and try and get it at this point, or do you think that's that's kind of especially because, like you're one of the few people that actually have the skill set to go to be able to get that record, there's not many people that can say that.
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: What does that?
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: What does that do for you?
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: Is that like a big no-no now?
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: or, oh man yeah, I have been going back and forth on this basically since then.
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: Um, I would, I was planning on it going for the record in august, um, before I left for europe, and I ended up getting covered uh, like two weeks out from leaving for europe and so I shut my window down to go after the grand record and I mean, I was pretty 50 50 on whether or not I would cut that switch back.
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: And in hindsight I'm glad I got COVID, because I'm not saying I would have gotten that record or anything, but you know, if I had and I had cut the switch back, I don't know that I could handle the heat as gracefully as Michaelino has.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: Um, he's, yeah, I don't know how he's dealt with all this.
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: I mean I'm sure it sucked, but, um, he's dealt with it better than I would have.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah, I don't know it's tough because I feel like now trail runners or, more specifically, mountain runners, on the grand and I don't know that the guides are going to appreciate people being up there.
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: Um, they already didn't exactly like someone being up there with just running shoes and I think they're going to really dislike it now.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: So it's a little it seems like kind of an awkward situation and, yeah, a part of me is really stoked to still get after that record, but a part of me doesn't want to deal with just the people on that mountain.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a lot of bullshit surrounding it.
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: Now it almost taints it yeah, I mean, I'm definitely gonna head out.
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: I plan on heading out there in august this year.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: Um, and I'm gonna, you know, be on the grand and I'll run it, and um, whether or not I go for that record, I'll just have to see what the vibe is like on the mountain, because it can be really crowded up there and you know there are a lot of mountain guides and there are instances where you need people to potentially like just scoot to the side for you to get past them yeah and generally that's been, at least in my experience, okay, um, but I can see maybe now, like I don't want to go for a record attempt and be really close and have a, a party there who you know is unwilling to scoot aside for a sec or whatever, which is, I mean, that sounds kind of elitist of me to say.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: But um, in the past it's been fine, but I feel like now there's this negative, negative light shit on mountain runners on that mountain.
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: So well, it begs the question too, like I'm I, you know I'm not as much a historian on this, but I know when Anderson went for it obviously it was a long, I won't say long ago, but at this point it is kind of long ago there was probably less people on the mountain Right.
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: So I feel like now, with the amount and just level of tourism that that part gets and those lower switchbacks get.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: I don't think it can be done, man.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: I mean maybe, but it's like especially to do without bypassing that switchback like I don't know, I think it's possible, but you'd have to.
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: Um, I think the the key would be to do it on a like um, the same style, like they do on the matterhorn, where they wait for the perfect weather window and just do it late in the afternoon.
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: I see that as being the only way to break that record now, because, yeah, it wouldn't be my style to do it and have people out there supporting me.
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: I'd have to do it just by myself and yeah, so I'm not going to have someone like running in front of me asking people to get out of the way or anything.
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: Um, I think that would actually be quite, quite annoying.
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: I think that was like what?
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: Uh, you know, jack and michaelina were doing it in that style and I don't think that's.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: That's definitely not the way to go.
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: Um, because I mean, imagine if you're like out there hiking and like someone's yelling at you to get out of the way, I don't know, it's like that seems kind of rude.
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: That kind of ruins the experience for the hiker.
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: But uh, if you try to do it really late in the afternoon or something like that, I think you can get away with it.
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: Um, so, man, I'd have to see what time it gets dark in august.
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: But yeah, try to start at like 6 or 7 pm or something interesting, you don't think?
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: doing it in the I mean just out of pure curiosity and we don't have to go too deep into this on the inside baseball, but like scrambling up there in the dark, that doesn't like.
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: Give you the heebie-jeebies well, ideally you, it won't be getting dark until you're like back down, close to the like switchbacks.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: Okay, um, yeah, I wouldn't.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I wouldn't be able to do, I wouldn't, you wouldn't be able to move very fast to be a headlamp on the upper section of that mountain, um, like in the dark.
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: But, uh, yeah, if you could catch it right as like, if you sum it like, right as the sun sets, that wouldn't that also just be really epic, kind of sick, yeah, yeah dude.
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: That's so interesting man.
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: Thanks for providing some commentary and being open about it.
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: It's funny, man, people get cagey about the conversation and the topic, but I feel like us, as athletes need to be more I don't want to say outspoken, but just like more open about having the conversation on what we think is the right way to do it.
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: And you know obviously there's no, everybody has different opinions, and I think that's the beauty is.
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: Is everybody having the the conversation on what we think is the right way to do it?
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: And you know obviously there's no.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: Everybody has different opinions and I think that's the beauty is.
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: Is everybody having the ability to have an opinion on it?
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: But it's like the less we talk about it and the more we get it out there in the mainstream is like the next, the less it's going to be before someone else tries to take a crack at it.
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: And I would feel terrible if, like no one just ever attempts it again, again, because there's just so much taboo around it.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: You know, yeah, totally, I mean it is such a cool mountain and it makes so much sense to want to go fast on that mountain, it's, it's a totally worthy, worthy objective.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah, I just I don't know.
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: The problem, I think, was that, um, you know, historically the only people that really cared to pay attention to the grand record and things happening in the Alpine like that were more the hardcore mountain runner folk.
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: Michaelino's situation just kind of opened the floodgates to a whole variety of people without any context and it got super frustrating to just have to read about um, everyone's hot take without understanding any of the historical significance.
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: And even you know people talking about andy's record and he didn't cut that lower switchback on the main trail but like he took the from my understanding is he took a really direct path once he got um above uh, what is it?
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: Garnet canyon or whatever?
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: Um, basically, once you veer off the main trail and get onto the boulders from there he took like a really direct path to the summit.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: And that's where, you know, a lot of jackson locals gave michaelino some shit because they were saying that he was yeah, off this trail.
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: And I mean the trail in reference is like just a user dirt path.
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: It's not, doesn't seem like it's maintained at all.
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: Um, and so, yeah, it's like people were saying, you know, andy's ethics were so much better than michaelino's, but the reality is that's so untrue and um, you know, right after michaelino broke andy's record, andy was stoked and gave him the plaque.
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: It was all cool.
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, the North Face, making a big deal out of it, just opened up the floodgates for people to have their opinion and comment online.
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: The back and forth was super lame.
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: There were a lot of pro athletes and high-profile people in the sport that had some comments that you know just misinformed me really unhappy and yeah, just yeah, I just sucked the people that put michaelino on blast um, super uncalled for, super uncool.
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: uh, yeah, it's such a weird situation.
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: Um, I had to separate myself from it eventually because I was like this is just oh, it's frustrating a weird situation.
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: Um, I had to separate myself from it eventually Cause I was like this is just, oh, it's frustrating, I think the thing, too, is that, like, at least my perspective on this is that, like there's not a lot of us floating around in the sense that, like it's kind of an elite fraternity of athletes, like there's not many athletes out there, like people that, like, actually understand this shit.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: Why are understand this shit like?
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: Why are we not protecting our own like in the sense where, like, we should all be?
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: You know, if, like, regardless of, like what people think, whether he was wrong or right, like the end of the day, like I think the court of public opinion, like trial runners, should stand up for their own.
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: In the sense it's not like he poached a fucking grizzly bear on the way down, like he literally just did, you know, like, and they treated it like that.
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: It was crazy.
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: But yeah it's like I said it's.
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: It's kind of one of those things where it was very frustrating, very upsetting, and I do have a very strong opinion that like we should be sticking up for our own and, uh, you know, kind of protecting him given that.
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: But yeah, no, totally Kudos to you for being so vocal about it.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: Um, I can't think of anyone else in the media who was, you know, supportive of michaelino and that and those early, early moments.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: um, because I guess you have the context like you understand it well, dude, I had him on like a week before he did it and like gave me the whole, like I had all the information ahead of time and like I knew most of like the like, the, just the information surrounding it going in, and then, when it all went down, there was just a lot of bullshit obviously at the end of the day.
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: But like I was like this is a good person.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: Why are people like michelino inadvertently, without even trying, became like one of the most famous runners in the entire world in the worst way possible?
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I was just very close to the situation and since then become very close with michelino and just become a good friend.
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: But like, yeah, it's, it was.
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: It's crazy man yeah, yeah, just missing.
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: And yeah, yeah, I don't know what else to say about it.
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I was gonna say like you, hopefully it moves on and everything's all good.
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: I don't know if we, I don't.
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: He's now relocated to Salt Lake but that information dropped today.
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: So I'm curious to.
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: I got to.
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: I'm supposed to talk to him tomorrow, so we'll see if there's more information on the case and what's going on there.
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: Let's get journey through the 2025 season.
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: So obviously you're going to minotaur.
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: What else is on deck for uh for your racing season?
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so after meet the minotaur, I'm gonna um head out to the?
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: Uh northern cascades and um plan on trying to uh repeat the north cascades high route with david hedges and michael worth nice um.
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I've been spending a bit of time out in uh and around mazama just getting a little more familiar with the cascades uh, and so, hopefully, if we find the right day and um, it's a little dependent right now on the uh, the current snowpack and how warm it is uh, we originally planned on doing it at the end of july, which is when uh jenny and caitlin had uh attempted the high route a couple of years ago uh, but it's a different snow year.
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: There's less snow than there was that year in 23 uh, and so we have you know, it's so much glacier travel, so we have to be pretty aware of um or pretty diligent in terms of not waiting too late and then crevasses open up uh become too wide for us to cross um, and so, yeah, after minotaur, I'll just head out there and then try to find the right time to go for that effort, uh and uh, I don't really have anything.
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: That's sort of going to take up the entire month of july for me, nice, um, and after that I will probably do a couple circ series races in august, um, and yeah, I'm like gonna be out in the tetons and maybe go for the grand record.
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: I don't, I don't know yet that's definitely to be determined.
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: Um, I'll just play that by year, uh, and then in september I'll run the rut 28k um, and after that we'll head straight to spain for the world champs.
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: Um, in can frank.
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: Uh, I was lucky to get a spot on the new zealand team for the short course.
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: Nice, really, really psyched about that and that course is, I think, gonna suit me well.
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: Um and um, then I'll do a race in ireland, the morn morn sky race, uh, as part of the sky running world series, um, and that's october 11th, um, and I think that'll probably be the end of my season, uh, so yeah, that's sort of how I have it planned out right now.
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: Um, there might be a few other like fkt type things in between then, but uh, those are the main.
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: That's the main focus, yeah dude, I gotta, I gotta get to you with this.
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: Like I'm super intrigued by the cascades, so tell like, maybe talk to the audience a little bit more about this higher out, because it's.
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: I know caitlin gerben, but I mean north face, made an amazing video, but like it just seemed like it took a fucking eternity last year when, or whenever they put it out, when they did it, just because it's obviously there was a lot of unknowns there with linking everything up and in July, like are you going to just project it, like do different pieces of it and then complete it, or like how how do you plan to approach that?
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: we'll be uh trying to scout some of the sections uh through the um like I think we'll try and do the tom again traverse, which is the southern portion of that route, so the last third of it um.
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: So we'll try to scout that uh and we'll try to do um some of the more technical sections, uh, some of the more technical sections, some of the more remote sections further north near the Canadian border.
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: So yeah, we'll try to link to.
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, ideally we would try to do in the span of like a few weeks, try to do like three or four big days and scout most of the course.
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: I don't know how realistic that will be um, because it gets really remote out there so the access gets kind of tricky um, but yeah, the cascades in general are really wild.
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: Uh reminds me a lot of um the european alps, minus the uh altitude, because, uh, most of the peaks in the cascades um that aren't volcanoes are usually only like eight to ten thousand feet tall.
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: Um, but heavily glaciated terrain.
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: The rock is really steep, a lot of scrambling and a lot of um.
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: Like we'll be utilizing ropes um for not only some of the um you know, crevassed sections and glaciated terrain, but also, uh, there's a lot of steep snow and a lot of scrambling involved, a lot of repelling.
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, it's like definitely more, feels a bit more like proper, proper mountaineering as opposed to just a.
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: You know, the stats on the north case skates high route are kind of similar to the nolans 14, but it's a completely different endeavor.
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: Um, they, the north case skates higher out.
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, I haven't stepped foot on any of that route yet, but just from, uh, michael and I had a chat with jenny um a couple weeks ago and just uh, in talking with her you kind of realized that the movie that they put out didn't really showcase how challenging that that route really was.
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: Um, so, all right yeah, it's going to be pretty full-on, um, and it's going to be uh.
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: You know we're hoping it takes us a similar amount of time to um jenny and uh caitlin, and so it's going to be a full like four, four days to seven days of just being out there by ourselves.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: We're hoping to do it fully unsupported as well, or self-supported, so we'll have stashes at the some of the road crossing junctions, but yeah, it's going to feel pretty wild and pretty out there.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: Proper boys trip dude, that's a that's going to be a fun one.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: That's going to be a fun one.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: Oh man, Just the remoteness is what's so crazy.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: I don't think people realize how it's back there.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: It's so out there.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: It's not even funny.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: In fact, after we get off this I have a bike.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: I'm going to jump on the bike.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: After we get off, that's the first thing I'm going to go.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: Watch is the higher out video.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but, dude, wishing you the best when you guys finish it.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: Man, I got to have you all three of you on, Cause David's an alumni of the podcast as well.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: I haven't had Michael on yet, but we should do.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: Maybe we'll do like a round table episode.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: That'd be kind of fun to talk about it, just because it's like just know that much about it.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: So maybe to put some visibility on on just what the level of effort is like for that.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: So yeah, that'd be awesome.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: I know we'd be, I'm sure, full of stories and adventure to talk about after hopefully completing it.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, super cool.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was kind of curious to what David was going to get into this year, so now I know a piece of it.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: So that's, that's interesting.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's out, he's running a belder on 100k, I think, the 100k um pretty soon and uh, I think when he gets back from that he'll just also like go straight to the cascades and we'll start getting on route um yeah, cool yeah, I'm also it's exciting to hear they're going to do a couple circ series races.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: Are you doing probably alta and targi?
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: I'll probably see it both of them hopefully.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: I'd like to see it.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: Both of those we'll see hopefully yeah, plan um alta and targi.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: I haven't run alta before.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: Uh, oh, you like that.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: I have buddies out in uh salt lake and um, yeah, I think that'll be.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: That'll be a fun, uh fun to do a cirque series race.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: Those are so cool.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: The hype that uh they create is really awesome.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: It's like more of a party than anything.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm surprised you like targi as much, because targi to me not that I didn't like it, I mean the, that it was epic but just there's not as much vertical as the other races.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: So for me it was like this is flat.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: It's like it was a mix of the things like the pieces I don't like because it like I'm.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: I like dirt road descending, I just like the dirt roads.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: Which is alta is all like super steep, gnarly road and then you get on to some like stupid steepest descents.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'll tell you'll like alta.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: That's one of my, it's probably my favorite course okay, okay, that's good to know.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've only done a basin and grand tari, so I think my, I don't know what it's like to do like a really mountainous cirque series race no bird, and obviously aliaska is, it's like real.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: There's like real sky running, um yep, but uh, yeah, yeah, it'll be cool.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: Um, uh, obviously, now that it's a sportiva sponsored event, I feel obligated to be out there and hopefully perform well, uh, yeah, but they're fun races regardless and in areas like you know, when I go out to grand tarry, I'll definitely make that part of the trip to the Tetons and maybe do some cool things in the Wasatch or go out with people.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: There's just so much to do.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: It's cool that those events also just bring you to cool areas.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: I'm also excited for that.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: It's going to be a fun summer.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: Man, I'm looking forward to it.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: I'm hoping I can get my shit together so I can be healthy again yeah I'm signed up for aliaska and that's two months out ish, so hopefully I can make it to that.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: That's kind of a kind of the next frontier for me, uh, is to get up to alaska and see what that's all about, so yeah, yeah, so did you not get into mount marathon via the lottery?
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: it didn't even apply.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: I, uh, I was going.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: So what happened was, um, the wife and I were trying to figure out just like scheduling because we leave, uh this week to go out east.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: The original plan was to do.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: The original original plan was sunopee, sir cannon and killington.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: We kind of shifted the plan once I started having some issues with my, my uh sacrum thing so, and it just became killingillington.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: But we're like okay, well, we're going to drive out to Killington Cause we have just to kind of save money, like we have family that lives like really close to there, so we're just going to stay with them, do the drive out, cause we have the dogs.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: So it was a matter of like okay, how fast can we get there from June 28th to get to Alaska?
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: Just to the turnover, to get to their july 4th was not easy.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: So it was like all right, I'm gonna forego that, maybe try to get into it next year and just, uh, we'll turn it into a vacation and go out there and um, I'll just do aliaska at the end of the month, just because it's easier to get, like easier to do from a scheduling perspective.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it's um, but hopefully I can pull it off, we'll see yeah, yeah, I always find that as well.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: where in the in the winter, especially in like december and january, I plan all these epic mountain trips and then you get to the realization that you can't just fit everything in.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: You're gonna have to reevaluate your goals a little bit.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I applied for mountain marathon and didn't get in via the lottery.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: But, like I would love to do Alyeska, but timing wise, it's not going to work out for me, which is yeah, but uh, yeah, yeah, there's just so many things, so many cool things to do.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: That more reason to, yeah, sign up for new stuff next year.
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know man.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sign up for new stuff next year.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know man, it's funny like I've been playing around a lot on the bike and I've kind of like adopted the kyle richardson way that like kind of like it's opened my eyes with like doing like really big bike link ups and running peaks and I'm like this is actually an amazing way to build fitness and like kind of get to see things you wouldn't normally see, just like driving to a trailhead, rather than like you can bike to the trailhead and like like link up different peaks and like link up different places.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: So that's kind of had me intrigued and compelled to like I might like alter part of the season once I get my shit together and start doing like maybe do a big bike link up this year or something like that, and kind of link some peaks yeah, yeah, one of the coolest things I remember, uh, anton kropichka did I don't know how many years ago, um, but he linked up the four great traverses, you know, like the little bit blanca traverse, kristin's traverse, maroon bells, um, he did that in like a big bike trip and I was I've always thought that would be really cool.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, link up to to do and um, yeah, when you add the bike, you sort of open the open the floodgates to super sick mountain adventures.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, human powered, it's really cool it is.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: It's a beautiful way to see things and build fitness.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: I just I've been slowly realizing it, like I've been doing a lot of like past link ups and stuff like that.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: Recently, now that the high countries kind of open up, I'm like, damn, this is uh, I didn't realize like you can bike from like salida to gunnison and it's really not that hard.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: Like there's a lot of different ways to get to different places.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: I was like something I'll play with, you know yeah, yeah, yeah, you get way more.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: Uh, you can start adding a lot more hours to your training when you had the bike Big time.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, man.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: Well, listen, we're a little bit over an hour.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: Dude, I want to thank you so much for your time.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: Love these conversations.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: We've got to keep these going.
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: Um, we'll do another one after the season Once you get back from worlds.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: Got so much fun stuff going on, we're going to be in touch, sweet.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was good chatting with you, man.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you too Appreciate it, jackson Cool.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: Thanks, man.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: Listen up, guys.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: The steep stuff podcast is brought to you by ultimate direction USA.
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: Guys, I am so excited UD just dropped their new race vest six liter, and ultra vest, 12 liter, into beautiful aesthetic colors.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: You guys got to check these new vests out.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: They're dynamic in ways like that you just have never seen from an ultimate direction vest Very stretchy, lots of storage, beautiful aesthetic colorways coming into, coming to you in a new, like a white and blue and an onyx and green just absolutely beautiful vests.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: I think these ones are just like some of the best products we've ever dropped and I'm so excited for you guys to try them out.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: Hop on ultimate directioncom and use code steep stuff pod again that's steep stuff pod for 25 off your new vest.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, they're already affordably priced, but 25 off is just going to make it so much more affordable for folks in an already increasingly expensive trail running environment.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: So hop on ultimatedirectioncom, get yourself a new vest, a pack or any hydration solution and let me know what you guys think.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: What a great episode.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: Thank you guys.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: So much for tuning in Genuinely appreciate it.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: Before we get going, if you guys want to hop on Instagram, the best way you can support Jackson is by giving him a follow.
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: You can find him at J-A-Y-R-C-O-L-E-E or just typing in Jackson, that's J-A-C-K-S-O-N Cole.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: You can find him that way.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: Give him an Instagram follow, send him some DMs, ask him questions.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: If you have questions, like I said, jackson's a great guy, definitely one of the most I mean just like super knowledgeable man.
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: Like you want to talk about a student of the game, his knowledge level of just not just the history, but just like so many of these routes, is crazy.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: So the dude is a consummate professional and, yeah, wishing him the best of luck and everything he's going to take on the summer, as he's got some big objectives.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: So, guys, before you get going, one of the best ways you could support this podcast is to give us a five-star rating and review on Apple, spotify, youtube or wherever you consume your podcasts.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: That would be amazing and thank you so much.
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: And very, very last but not least, if you are in the market for a pack, a waist belt, bottles, hydration, any hydration solution, give Ultimate Direction a follow, hop on ultimatedirectioncom and use code steepstuffpod.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: It's going to get you 25% off your cart.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: If you have any questions on any products, feel free to shoot me a DM.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: I'd be happy to answer.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: You.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: Appreciate it, guys.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: Thanks for tuning in.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: Thank you.