Latest / The MOOD Podcast / Andrea Modica's answer to the question every photographer asks eventually: what's the point? E134

Transcript

Andrea Modica's answer to the question every photographer asks eventually: what's the point? E134 · The MOOD Podcast

0:10
Matt: Andrea Modica, uh, what an honor to have you on the show.
0:13
Matt: Thank you so much for joining me today.
0:16
Andrea: Thank you for having me, Matt.
0:18
Andrea: I'm thrilled to be here speaking to you.
0:21
Matt: We find you in Philadelphia after um you know having so many years behind the camera, and uh I we don't have enough time to go through all of your projects and all of your books, and I have a couple with me on the table here for for listeners who are not able to see anything, but we're gonna touch upon those books.
0:42
Matt: Before we do, just give me a very brief introduction of your introduction to photography and kind of what you were when you first started making photos, and what was it about the photos that really captured your attention?
0:58
Andrea: Well, I was a painting major in college, and then I thought I was a sculpture major.
1:04
Andrea: I just liked making things and I liked working with equipment and stuff.
1:10
Andrea: So I I took a photography class thinking, of course, it was going to be easy, uh, and very quickly went to a large format camera and was uh was taken with a couple things.
1:24
Andrea: First and foremost, the technical aspects of it.
1:27
Andrea: All of the sane things like loading film holders and um, you know, the rules about processing film, like if you in those days, certainly if you didn't have it, it was garbage.
1:40
Andrea: If you didn't expose it, process it properly, it was garbage.
1:43
Andrea: So I loved working uh with those rules and seeing how far I can push those rules.
1:50
Andrea: Uh and that was very different from my experience with painting, especially in the early 80s, where you know, really anything, anything went.
2:00
Andrea: So uh it was a kind of uh, you know, a land with no law, uh, but photography uh kept me grounded, and especially with the big camera.
2:10
Andrea: And then of course I wanted to break all those laws.
2:13
Andrea: I wanted to figure out ways to to to circumvent those or to make them mine.
2:18
Andrea: Uh and then the other thing that happened was uh that uh very early on with the big camera, I took a photograph of my uh best friend who's still my best friend, and uh she presented a word we didn't use back then uh in a very feminine manner, uh, but uh she um looked very masculine in the picture and uh it was a transformation that underlined for me how much power uh we have as photographers to actually uh uh present something that looks truthful uh but is really a um a marriage at best for me of uh myself and the world.
3:02
Andrea: So there's a whole new uh truth that happens in between with all of the things that look so true, like hair and skin, uh, but uh there's this whole other piece of it, which is that like great fiction, it's possible uh on the rare occasions you get it right, uh, or or you you just I don't even know how.
3:24
Andrea: I don't even know how to make a good picture, but on the occasions that it works, that it transcends anything that you assume about the subject, uh, and that you actually, or I actually learned something about the world, and that is the prize.
3:40
Andrea: Uh making a quote unquote good picture is certainly uh a high uh but um the real prize for me is uh this transformation that happens and the experience spending time with the big camera with a person uh and and having an intimacy that uh is not possible, not for me.
4:05
Andrea: Uh it's a very different kind of intimacy uh without the camera.
4:10
Andrea: Um so I've touched upon a lot of things there, Matt.
4:15
Matt: Where should we go?
4:15
Matt: Well, we're gonna talk about big camera in a little bit because I think that's an important topic to to unpack.
4:23
Matt: You talked about, you know, a good picture, quote unquote, um, and this phrase kind of transcending the subject, which I I I like the way you talked about.
4:32
Matt: Would you, you know, and you teach, of course, so you know, first of all, do you believe there is such a thing as a good and bad photo?
4:39
Matt: And if so, would you put that definition of of a good photograph or good body of work or good photographer, this label we have as this ability to transcend whatever you you are, whatever's in front of your camera?
4:55
Andrea: Oh, such a great question.
4:56
Andrea: I uh uh of course it's such a silly word, a good picture, not a good picture.
5:01
Andrea: Um it's it's it it is very much, I think, up to the photographer.
5:07
Andrea: Uh but for me, uh the uh before I put something in the world, um, and sometimes I need help with this, uh, I try to see it uh as objectively as possible and see and to try to name uh what it's about uh and to point to things that are physically in the image that can support the content.
5:32
Andrea: Uh so it's not any longer something that's affiliated with the uh the process of making the picture, but now it's a new object.
5:42
Andrea: So for me, it needs to have a certain amount of complexity so that it can, again, if I'm going to put in the world, reach a uh a variety of people, right?
5:56
Andrea: And a larger audience, uh, and that would be a stronger picture for me.
6:01
Andrea: So it's not, you know, a one sentence, uh, but it might be a paragraph or if it's really working, a poem.
6:11
Andrea: Um, and it's not uh necessarily instructing the viewer about what to what it's about, but there has to be uh enough there have to be enough hooks to bring the viewer in uh to want to decide what it's about.
6:29
Andrea: Or even if what it's about is unclear, they want to keep looking.
6:34
Andrea: So, you know, again, the good photograph has different functions.
6:40
Andrea: Like it it could be good for me if it transforms something from reality or something that I know or think I know into something that surprises me, but that surprise before I put it in the world has to be apparent in ways that you know one could point to.
6:57
Andrea: So an example would be um we talked a little bit uh before uh we started recording about uh uh uh about the print.
7:07
Andrea: So I print in platinum, and platinum uh uh can produce a very beautiful print, just sumptuous, beautiful print.
7:16
Andrea: And uh that doesn't mean that's better or worse than a print that's not beautiful.
7:21
Andrea: It's just a formal element that interests me.
7:25
Andrea: And when something very beautiful is paired with something that might be on some level a little disturbing, uh, then you now you've got two things going on at once.
7:37
Andrea: And they're actually in conflict with each other.
7:40
Andrea: And that kind of complexity, I believe, can bring in a greater audience.
7:48
Andrea: So they might be expecting it to be one thing and then it turns into something else.
7:53
Andrea: So it might keep somebody looking at the picture, you know, a little bit longer or coming back to it.
8:00
Andrea: So really strong photograph will change with with time, right?
8:05
Andrea: So you you might come back to it a week later, a year later, and it became and the meaning of it is something different.
8:13
Matt: Uh that's yeah, I I couldn't agree with you more.
8:15
Matt: That's why I have a couple of your books with me, because they do exactly that for me.
8:19
Matt: I keep coming back to them and the Talon story being relatively new, I'm still, you know, even knowing that I've been going coming to speak to you for the last few months, like just go coming back, coming back, coming back, seeing different things, opening up questions, opening up some ambiguity is probably the wrong word, but opening up something that's um that's the interpretation of which evolves over over time and over the way you might evolve as a viewer, but also as the photographer.
8:49
Matt: So I think that's where the the real beauty in your work as well as you know many other good photographers' work really stands out.
8:56
Matt: Did did this evolve I I don't want to call it philosophy, but did this kind of insight evolve with you over time, or is this something that you because if we look at your early work, it's it's it's slightly different.
9:08
Matt: I mean, of course it is over you know so many years as as all of ours is, but how did that kind of shape over your formative formative years and and and later on where you you kind of kind of understand this this concept of what a what a good photograph might might be um conceptualized as I I can't say for sure when I started thinking this way, but um if I may, there's something that that goes uh you know, pun intended hand in hand with that, which is um an awareness that you know my photographs, like many pictures that don't hold my attention, um including many, many of my own, can be heavy-handed.
9:56
Andrea: This is of course a maybe a great danger with a big camera.
10:00
Andrea: So um I I sometimes I'll look at a picture and all I see is how I made it and I cringe because that's that's a you know, that's one note.
10:10
Andrea: It will never go beyond that.
10:12
Andrea: So uh very early on, I was aware that I wanted to make photographs where my hand was invisible.
10:23
Andrea: Uh, and I didn't want the viewer to think about the fact that a picture was being made.
10:28
Andrea: Because of course that's not enough, but that's one thing.
10:32
Andrea: So I I rem I I quite remember that turning point.
10:36
Andrea: Um, but uh like I I can't remember when you know when exactly I started thinking this way or that way.
10:44
Andrea: I've been shooting since uh to be uh honest with myself, uh 1980.
10:51
Andrea: Yeah.
10:52
Andrea: That's a lot, I mean with the 8x10.
10:55
Andrea: It's a lot of years.
10:58
Matt: So what why why the eight by because you started shooting eight by ten straight out of Yale, right?
11:03
Matt: Or in Yale.
11:04
Andrea: Oh no, no, in in undergraduate at SUNY Program.
11:07
Matt: Oh, okay.
11:08
Matt: Oh wow, okay.
11:08
Matt: Yeah.
11:09
Andrea: So I went to state school and uh w we were very lucky to have had two eight by ten uh field cameras, not a very big person.
11:19
Andrea: So uh it was important that I was introduced to a field camera early on, a Toyo, uh as opposed to a monorail, right?
11:29
Andrea: Something like who really put in a backpack and uh travel with walk around.
11:33
Andrea: I never had a car until much I didn't have a license till much, much later.
11:38
Andrea: So um so I start what was your question, Matt?
11:43
Matt: Uh why why the I was gonna say why the eight by ten, what what was because I was, you know, at school and I wanted to try everything.
11:52
Andrea: So yes, I was l lucky enough to be to school that had these cameras where you could, you know, sign them out for a week and and try them.
12:00
Andrea: And and also, by the way, at SUNY Purchase, uh one of the professors was Jed Devine, who uh uh was a premiere printer.
12:11
Andrea: I mean, an amazing uh platinum printer.
12:14
Andrea: And he's the person who said to me, if you're interested in this, there's really one person to study with, and it's Richard Benson.
12:22
Andrea: So I would have gone uh anywhere to study with Richard Benson.
12:26
Andrea: He happened to have been teaching at Yale.
12:28
Andrea: So I ended up in grad school at Yale.
12:31
Andrea: But I I started with that big camera uh because I I just I didn't feel like, and of course I know better now, but I didn't feel like with the small camera I was doing enough.
12:45
Andrea: You know, I wanted to really punch my hands, and I still do into the clay of um uh of making a picture.
12:53
Andrea: I've I wanted to um, you know, the holders, all of those things that I'm talking about, um, I I loved, I still do.
13:02
Andrea: I just unpack boxes of film from BH.
13:06
Andrea: I just love putting them on their shelf, you know, and and getting ready to load my film holders.
13:12
Andrea: It's such a silly thing, but it's so grounding in, of course, a world of complete unknowns, right?
13:20
Andrea: We don't know if we're gonna get, you know, get anything we like when we go out and shoot, but we do know how to load a film holder.
13:30
Andrea: So I I like all of the physicality of that uh camera.
13:34
Andrea: And of course, as I said, I was a sculpture major shortly before that, and I was welding metal, and I loved that.
13:41
Andrea: Um thank goodness I didn't continue.
13:44
Andrea: It's hard enough to store 40 plus god how many 50 years of prints.
13:50
Andrea: I can't imagine 50 years of sculpture.
13:53
Andrea: But um I does that make sense, that answer.
13:58
Matt: I might resonate with it slightly differently.
13:59
Matt: And I mean, correct me if I'm wrong if I'm kind of interpreting this right.
14:03
Matt: There's a there's there's a real freedom uh as well as control, this paradox of like, for me anyway, I love every step of the making, you know, uh the the the photographers I admire so much, one of one of them being you, of course, is that you use this phrase making a picture rather than taking a photo, right?
14:21
Matt: There's a huge difference in the in in the mindset.
14:24
Matt: If you can have if you have this desire to create from uh scratch as much, you know, bar making the film yourself, like if you get that film and you see it all the way through in your case, all the way through to doing your own prints, then there's this be there's this A, you have control every step, but also it's extremely liberating to be able to just have a full creative process on making a picture.
14:50
Matt: I I don't know if that kind of agrees with with uh with the the joy that you you get from it.
14:57
Andrea: Because we we we have uh control, but we also have responsibility every step of the way.
15:02
Andrea: So I for that reason I don't, unless somebody's you know hiring me to travel to to work, I don't ever hire assistants.
15:11
Andrea: I do everything by hand.
15:13
Andrea: I process my film with a green light filter, so I inspect it.
15:17
Andrea: You know, nobody and nobody's gonna be able to inspect my film and and make a decision the way I will.
15:23
Andrea: You know, I love you know, waiting for it to dry.
15:26
Andrea: This is gonna sound so kooky.
15:28
Andrea: Uh, but um, you know, and then making the proofs, which I now do digitally, by the way, with my telephone, for goodness sake, and then decide uh what I want to do with that um in terms of making a finished print, which could take, you know, that decision could take some time.
15:45
Andrea: So it again, it's not just about it is a, you know, it's like you're responsible for that stuff.
15:51
Andrea: And I like that.
15:53
Andrea: And I teach you know, I teach, and most of the, of course, the world is using digital, and and that has its own set of absolute advantages.
16:02
Andrea: So we have to, of course, consider whatever camera we're using as our advantage, right?
16:09
Andrea: Otherwise, it's silly to use it.
16:11
Andrea: So the very things that somebody would think is crazy about using big camera, let me tell you it's gotten very stupidly expensive, as I'm sure you know.
16:20
Andrea: Um, you know, those very things have to be turned into an advantage.
16:25
Andrea: So, okay.
16:25
Andrea: The fact that it's gotten very expensive.
16:28
Andrea: I might be more careful shooting.
16:31
Andrea: That might make me worse, but it might make me better.
16:34
Andrea: Um, you know, so it has to be somehow uh considered uh part of uh the decision, all of that.
16:42
Andrea: If I had learned photography sitting at a screen, I'm quite confident I would have done something else.
16:52
Andrea: But I see my there are you know young people who just love exactly that.
16:57
Andrea: That's their advantage.
16:59
Matt: Quick one from me before we carry on.
17:02
Matt: Now, most photographers I know do all of this completely alone, right?
17:07
Matt: They think alone, ideate alone, they shoot alone, they edit alone, and they sit with questions about their work, about their process, about their brand, and they have really nowhere to take them.
17:20
Matt: I know this because I did that for so many years.
17:24
Matt: So I decided to build the room I always wanted to be in, and it's called The Mood Insiders.
17:30
Matt: It's a private community for photographers just like us who want to go deeper than the scrolling feed or just posting the images and hoping to get something back.
17:39
Matt: We meet online three times a week and a few times a year in person.
17:43
Matt: We go through books that are important for learning in our craft, and we study and review photo books.
17:48
Matt: We look at each other's work through intentional and structured formal critiques, and every so often one of the artists from either the books or from the podcast comes and sits in with us.
17:59
Matt: As well as that, all members have full access to my flagship video course, Voice Alchemy.
18:05
Matt: They get access to masterclasses every six weeks, QA sessions, extra podcast features, posting platforms and chat forums, and so much more.
18:14
Matt: It's a community of people who care about the why behind the work, not just the output.
18:21
Matt: The community and resources you need to take the next step in your photography, not just another posting app or a sharing algorithmic platform, but a community that goes so much deeper.
18:33
Matt: So if that sounds like your kind of thing, the link is below in the description.
18:37
Matt: Go and take a look, and hope to see you inside.
18:40
Matt: Right.
18:41
Matt: Back to the conversation.
18:42
Matt: Is it uh I mean you see these the the I guess the younger generation, I'm sure there are more mature students that you teach, but the the uh the way that the photography industry has changed since you started shooting back in the 80s, the the is there a desire for you to want to kind of still uh grab and encourage the that more um kind of the older way of of moving and the older way of creating and and not discourage, but try and encourage people to enjoy the the the craft of analog, whatever it might be, or the slower, more intentional form of photography.
19:22
Matt: Or do you think there's a you know you can marry both worlds successfully in just whatever suits your your lifestyle or budget or whatever it might be?
19:32
Andrea: I feel like I need to go pushing it or foisting it on anybody.
19:36
Andrea: It's remarkable how much interest there is in the 18, 20 year olds.
19:42
Andrea: They're so excited to be on their feet walking around, moving things, watching them come up.
19:51
Andrea: Um so it it's fun.
19:55
Andrea: It's it's not it's not been um it's not been a chore to to share that.
20:01
Andrea: It's and it's been a very, very important part of my teaching.
20:05
Andrea: It's what I can offer the most.
20:08
Andrea: And and to I think talking about pictures, of course, however they're made, it doesn't matter.
20:13
Andrea: Um but I'm I'm happy to to I'm thrilled to see uh you know this being passed on to the next generation.
20:24
Andrea: They seem extremely interested.
20:27
Andrea: Not everybody, of course, but enough that it's almost shocking.
20:32
Matt: Yeah, it's definitely uh definitely an upsurge in in in in that that I can I can sense.
20:37
Matt: But tell me more about how the eight by ten has not changed your process because you've been using it for for your entire career, but how does the eight by ten and the way you use it, whether it's with the the actual kind of mechanics of it or whether you know the relationship with your subject and your environment, how does that change the content?
20:58
Matt: How does that change or how does that have an impact on the images that you're trying to make specifically?
21:04
Matt: Does that does that question make sense?
21:06
Andrea: I think I can make sense of it if you don't mind.
21:09
Andrea: I maybe I won't answer your question completely, but I I am very interested in uh the the the the fact that uh photographs are uh their that their content is informed, is carved in part by the equipment used.
21:27
Andrea: And so it used to be that you would, and I'm talking many years ago, uh, that the 8x10 or 4x5 would be used to create a print that was seamless or near seamless in terms of the appearance of grain.
21:41
Andrea: And uh now, of course, uh digital uh has taken care of that problem, right?
21:48
Andrea: And uh of course, I would say color has never looked better uh than it is now, um, and has not ever been so accessible, but color was.
21:59
Andrea: Only film, it was it was really hard.
22:02
Andrea: So this is uh you know a great thing about digital, um and and not having to go through x-ray machines, let me point out.
22:12
Andrea: But what but what but getting back to this other point, I'm really interested in the fact that the world will react differently to a big camera than it does to a little camera, simply put.
22:26
Andrea: So just like the world is gonna act differently towards a photographer who is 20 year old years old or 70 years old.
22:36
Andrea: And this is endlessly interesting to me, especially as I get older and um I'm looking at the world differently, and the world is looking at me differently.
22:45
Andrea: Of course, the world has changed enormously as well.
22:48
Andrea: So uh people are um, you know, it's a slower, uh, more collaborative process.
22:56
Andrea: There's no way you can sneak a picture.
22:58
Andrea: Uh you you need to say, uh, may I take your picture?
23:01
Andrea: And uh they have to consent and they have to stand there and you focus and you make your composition and you make decisions about depth of field and how to use the standards and uh how close to be, what's in the background, all of that stuff uh while you know torturing some human who's staying still for that that I'm I'm being a little disgusted.
23:22
Andrea: Uh and and um, you know, just hoping uh that they don't move too much uh before you put the the holder in, take, you know, close remember to close the shutter, change the uh, you know, the F stop, blah, blah, and shutter speed, take the slide out, all these things have to be remembered.
23:39
Andrea: And still I make mistakes occasionally.
23:42
Andrea: Uh, and then, you know, the the the exposure might be long.
23:46
Andrea: So the person has to perhaps not blink.
23:48
Andrea: So during all of this stuff, uh there's perhaps conversation going on, uh, maybe the weather changes, maybe the person gets agitated, um, or let's even step back before they're holding still.
24:03
Andrea: Um, there might be, let's say there are two people together in the picture.
24:07
Andrea: How are they presenting themselves in front of the camera?
24:11
Andrea: How, if I ask them, which I might, to stand a little closer, how does that affect their dynamic?
24:18
Andrea: Again, it's not something I can I can plan.
24:21
Andrea: It's something that I can learn.
24:23
Andrea: So that that again is just endlessly interesting to me.
24:30
Andrea: And the small camera has, of course, so many advantages of, you know, the photographer being able to be invisible or be forgotten or not bother anybody.
24:40
Andrea: Uh these are all possibilities that um, you know, well, the view camera I hope doesn't bother everybody, but it's it's you know, they're people are doing you a favor, that's for sure, uh, uh when they say yes to that to may I take your picture.
24:55
Andrea: But I am probably mostly interested in um bringing, and I touch upon this, everything of who I am, uh, my age, my height, my my right now my hair color has changed, all of that to uh to the picture making process, my experience as a photographer, everything I've learned as a photographer, and then what the world is bringing me.
25:19
Andrea: So what let's say, in this case, a person or uh is is bringing to that situation.
25:25
Andrea: So that person again is reacting to me, and uh, and then we meet at best, somewhere in the middle.
25:32
Andrea: So I find, again, back to this idea of the good picture, is that uh for me, if a photograph uh is uh more heavily weighted in its content on either end of that fictitious scale I'm making up, if it's more about me uh uh or more about the subject, if either thing takes over and there's no meeting, uh, then it usually it's usually pretty much a like want-to-punch for me.
26:03
Andrea: So it doesn't have that complexity, you see.
26:07
Matt: Another really quick note from me.
26:09
Matt: Now, I work with a lot of photographers, and I'll tell you the thing that keeps coming up almost every single time.
26:16
Matt: It's never the technical ability.
26:19
Matt: They can expose, they can edit, the images are clean.
26:22
Matt: And it's not the camera, and it's definitely not the software.
26:25
Matt: It's their voice.
26:27
Matt: They haven't got a clear sense of really who they are, what their work is actually about, or what they want to say with it.
26:33
Matt: So everything they make comes out usually looking like everyone else's, and we know how easy that is today with so many of us with a device in hand.
26:42
Matt: So I built something for that.
26:44
Matt: It's called Voice AI, and it's a free assessment that is built around my own voice and what I would ask you if I was actually asking you the questions that will help you get clarity on your voice, and it comes back with where you actually are and what your next steps look like.
27:00
Matt: The members of my community, Mood Insiders, love it, so I wanted to share it with you here too.
27:06
Matt: Like I said, it's completely free and takes just a few minutes.
27:10
Matt: The link is in the description below, and I hope you get what you want out of it.
27:14
Matt: Right, back to the rest of the conversation.
27:16
Matt: You mentioned like um, you know, we we if I look at As We Wait, which was curated by Larry Fink.
27:23
Matt: Wait, where how does that um how shall I phrase this?
27:30
Matt: This uh line of authorship.
27:32
Matt: So you talked about, you know, the actual making of the picture is is this beautiful dance between you and whatever you might be taking a photo of, whether it's an animal, still life landscape, or a lot of people in in in your case.
27:45
Matt: How how is it to then hand that over to someone else to either curate or to publish or to exhibit?
27:54
Matt: You know, that there's another beautiful dance that's going on with you uh and someone else, and there's this kind of release of control in that respect.
28:02
Matt: Is that that was that a difficult thing for you initially?
28:06
Matt: And can you tell me a little bit more about that process?
28:09
Matt: But you know, we can touch upon as we wait as a specific example if you want, but I'm I'm keen to hear about your relationship with someone like Larry Fink or some you know, a publisher like and uh you know, of which one of the the founders makes an appearance in Italian Story, right?
28:25
Matt: So uh you clearly have a great relationship with people like this.
28:28
Matt: Can you tell me why that's important to you?
28:31
Matt: And um I've I think I've asked you about 10 different questions there, but pick your choice and just tell me a little bit about that relationship with with other people.
28:40
Andrea: And I want the listeners to know it's it's it's late for me.
28:44
Andrea: So I'm I'm taking notes.
28:48
Matt: Sorry.
28:48
Andrea: I do want to I do want to carry it away.
28:50
Andrea: Yeah that I I am somebody who is very happy to hand over the work, and that's that's not everybody, and it doesn't make me better or worse, but it I would rather do my job and make the pictures and get somebody who is better at hanging a show or putting together book.
29:14
Andrea: Now the shows are are are really uh just such a joy.
29:20
Andrea: Um, and I I have two shows up right now in New York, uh, one at AMR Gallery and Dumbo of Catholic Girl, which is much older work, and then the newer uh work, Italian Story at the Alice Austin House, uh in Staten Island.
29:38
Andrea: And I'm telling you, those women, Annabelle Rinehart and Victoria Monroe, Victoria's at the museum, did such a great job of uh sequencing that work on the walls that I learned something from what they put up.
29:56
Andrea: So that has been my experience from the beginning.
30:00
Andrea: I would rather see what somebody else sees in the work and when they work.
30:06
Andrea: Now I've been lucky that I've been with good people.
30:10
Andrea: In the case of Larry, I was with somebody brilliant and uh he he really uh oh goodness, he said, give me, you know, s some work.
30:20
Andrea: I'm I'm editing, uh you know, I'm I'm I'm putting together curating a book, which meant that he was editing, sequencing, and writing, uh, which is a real joy, uh coming from Larry.
30:33
Andrea: And uh so I gave him, I don't know, maybe twelve or fifteen different bodies of work.
30:39
Andrea: And it was as if he had, you know, taken my perfectly curated carousel, and only some people are gonna know what a carousel is, and and unscrewed the top, threw the slides on the floor, did a little dance, threw them in the air, and there was my book.
30:58
Andrea: So, um, but he had so many great reasons for those pairings.
31:04
Andrea: Um, there's a, for example, a photograph of a very close-up image of lips next to some uh uh ill-formed carrots.
31:13
Andrea: And he felt that carrots felt like worms, and and there was something, you know, like maybe took it to an even more disturbing place uh than the than the pictures individually in that case.
31:27
Andrea: Some of them are um the the it's that book is so much a collaboration.
31:34
Andrea: Uh and my only um requirement is that every picture is uh I feel strong.
31:43
Andrea: So I don't um I do understand with books that we have to take out some pictures that are maybe strong to make the book stronger and put in some pictures that are good uh but not necessarily your favorites to uh to help sequence.
32:02
Andrea: And that's where the publishers, well, getting beyond Larry, because this is my only collaboration with another photographer as we wait.
32:12
Andrea: So Italian story is 40 years of work in and about Italy, about meaning I have, you know, I'm Italian-American, I have two passports, my family's from Italy, um, and a lot of pictures were made in the United States.
32:27
Andrea: And of course, stories, as I say in the back, it's it's fictitious.
32:32
Andrea: It's a story.
32:33
Andrea: So um though there are different strands of stories going through it, it's 40 years of my bringing the view camera to Italy uh and photographing.
32:44
Andrea: And so there were, I would say, hundreds of pictures that I had to go through.
32:50
Andrea: And then I maybe went through 200 or so, maybe more, with Gianluca Gamberini from L'Artiere.
32:58
Andrea: And uh we narrowed it down.
33:00
Andrea: He wanted to take out the picture of him.
33:02
Andrea: You know, it's very hard.
33:04
Andrea: Editing is hard.
33:05
Andrea: Uh I I was there for all the pictures that I made, so I couldn't see straight.
33:10
Andrea: You know, there's a man who I was in love with for 14 years.
33:14
Andrea: There's a strand of him going through the book, you know, the the whole process of the relationship.
33:20
Andrea: So that was hard for me to look at.
33:23
Andrea: Um, so John Luca and I, you know, did that together, narrow it down to I I don't know, maybe 120, and then gave it to the designer, Teresa Lerardi.
33:34
Andrea: And she uh has designed all my books with L'Artiere, and there are four of them, except for Larry's.
33:40
Andrea: Wait, I think she might have designed it, but he did the sequencing.
33:44
Andrea: Um, but she really knows my work well.
33:47
Andrea: I feel she she understands it.
33:50
Andrea: Uh again, she doesn't see it the way I see it.
33:55
Andrea: So she put pairings together that were, I think, pretty extraordinary.
34:01
Andrea: Um, with no regard, of course, to any of these actual stories I mentioned, like the relationship, or you know, I did uh a job from Versace last year and had a little free time and photographed around that region, which is where my grandfather came from.
34:17
Andrea: My mother's wedding dress is in there, my mother is in there, my mother's, you know, hands and foot, and you know, it did just many uh many oh my goodness, I lived in Sicily very early on uh with a Fulbright.
34:33
Andrea: I've taught all over Italy workshops, and there were images woven through from those workshops.
34:40
Andrea: Uh so um it it the process was those were the three steps.
34:47
Andrea: I went through all of them.
34:49
Andrea: Jean-Luc and I went through a couple hundred, two hundred and fifty maybe, and then the designer made a book of from 120 or 30 pictures up.
35:00
Andrea: I think there are about 70 pictures in the book.
35:02
Andrea: I I feel like what I just said is very boring, but no, no, no, no..
35:07
Matt: It's it's it's fascinating.
35:08
Matt: Can can you can while we're on Italian story, I I do want to jump back to as we wait in a minute, but while we're on Italian story, for those that you know may not know you or may not know the book, um, can you you know because it it obviously takes on a different meaning when you hand it off and there's it's a this beautiful collaborative approach, and as you said, some of the the personal stories that are in there and the little strands of this, and they take on a this this wider kind of narrative, shall we say?
35:36
Matt: Can you can you give people who may not know about it a little synopsis or at least um what you think that this now says as as a book um and and as a collect collection of images that is Italian story?
35:50
Andrea: Oh man, can you do that for me?
35:52
Andrea: I'm not interested in what you think.
36:00
Matt: Oh no, no, I I I'm not gonna do it disservice.
36:06
Matt: I I might write an article about it when I when I've listened to you um tell me.
36:10
Matt: Well, what what does it mean to you, you know, seeing it in a book form, 40 years of photos, so much kind of so many personal, you know, elements in the book, um, whether they're personal stories or or you know, personal bits of form, what does it mean to you now um when you see it in in book form?
36:30
Andrea: I I well the reason why I only half-jokingly ask you to answer that question is because there are pictures in that book that are so heartbreaking to me.
36:41
Andrea: My mom had a um, she was a pianist, she lost her fingers, that's her her um foot that's without her toes ulcerated.
36:50
Andrea: This went on for f for all of my life.
36:53
Andrea: It started when she was pregnant with me.
36:56
Andrea: You know, there's her wedding dress, her dad's dream for her.
37:01
Andrea: Um he was a a tailor that that um apprenticed outside of Naples.
37:07
Andrea: So when they went to America so many years ago, he was actually employable.
37:13
Andrea: I mean, very much so as a tailor in New York.
37:17
Andrea: Um and uh, you know, of course, there's this relationship.
37:21
Andrea: There are many pictures of this man's mother who I adore and uh was very close to uh and uh of course lost in the relationship.
37:34
Andrea: Um there's his son who uh I'll you know probably never see again.
37:41
Andrea: Um so there are so many things that nobody would know.
37:45
Andrea: There are a couple naked men, what are they doing in there?
37:48
Andrea: You know, I mean, that are not this man.
37:51
Andrea: And and I taught a workshop on nude photography, nude portrait show.
37:55
Andrea: I don't know what it was in Tuscany.
37:57
Andrea: And all these guys showed up.
38:00
Andrea: My name is a man's name uh in Italian, Andrea.
38:05
Andrea: So I'm sure they thought I was in and they had some other idea of what that workshop is gonna be.
38:11
Andrea: So so they're there, you know, modeling for me on a an off day.
38:16
Andrea: Um and uh it's just such an I of course there were other men, because it was 40 years who I was involved with.
38:24
Andrea: Uh there are friends, there is somebody, you know, a friend who has passed away.
38:30
Andrea: Uh so I can't expect anybody to know any of this.
38:34
Andrea: And then they but this is where Teresa was so smart because she put things together that I do think the book has a uh, you know, a weight to it that um that one doesn't need to know any of this stuff that I'm talking about.
38:50
Andrea: And in fact, I certainly don't include anything in writing.
38:54
Andrea: I mean, this is maybe what, you know, a podcast is for.
38:58
Andrea: Um because it's not in the book and it shouldn't be in the book.
39:03
Andrea: And maybe it shouldn't even be on a podcast, for goodness sake.
39:06
Andrea: And I know a lot of photographers who probably wouldn't have said all that, but you ask and and what do I see?
39:14
Andrea: It's it's unimportant what I see.
39:16
Andrea: What's it more important truly, Matt, is what you see.
39:20
Andrea: And if you know, if somebody wants to look at that book more than once, then you know, then it serves its function.
39:29
Matt: Yeah.
39:30
Matt: I see uh I see a love letter, and uh I'll probably um probably elaborate on that uh in another sub stack or something like that.
39:41
Matt: It's not not for today.
39:42
Matt: I I I on that kind of point of sentimentality and uh just going back to as we wait, because I wanted to read something that Larry Fink wrote um, you know, right at the beginning of the book, and I want to ask you a little bit about it, but I'll read it first.
39:56
Matt: Andrea Modica works with sensual love as her base, but aligned with a darkness which is pervasive, so much so that it can colour your dreams.
40:05
Matt: The work is not hopeless but breathless, as if there is an atmosphere go gauze placed over the larynx so that the breathing has to be softened, done in silence so that walking the tightrope between an exalted life and a sultry death.
40:20
Matt: You shan't emit too loud a sound.
40:22
Matt: The balance is so tentative, so tactile, so absolutely fragile that there is the danger of tipping the scales of mortality in clear sight.
40:30
Matt: First of all, what a beautiful way to open a book, beautiful words.
40:36
Matt: Um there was there was a uh a phrase there that really caught my attention.
40:41
Matt: Um works with sensual love as her base, but aligned with a darkness which is pervasive.
40:49
Matt: A accurate observation clearly.
40:52
Matt: Um was that's is that this darkness and this I guess um what for want of a better word, darkness or some um I'm struggling to to to to pick a better word, but that that does kind of run through certainly this book, you can see a little bit more in a nostalgic aspect in in Italian story.
41:13
Matt: Is that something that you're consciously thinking about?
41:16
Matt: Because I'd like to understand your process just one one step more in terms of uh conscious and subconscious decisions that you make before and and in the field when you're you're making these photographs.
41:29
Matt: Um you know, we'll talk about editing and sequencing the collaborative after because you know we've already touched upon that.
41:35
Matt: But you as a person, do you see that darkness coming through your your conscious decision making when you've got camera in hand?
41:42
Matt: No interesting.
41:47
Andrea: But I I will say uh I do want to say that it's so moving for me to hear Larry's words again, and his passing was such a loss for the community, and uh very much uh I miss him.
42:02
Andrea: Uh and I felt, you know, we were of course friends.
42:06
Andrea: He was a mentor first, and um it's very rare that you've f if feel like somebody can, you know, again, uh unfold something that you don't know about your work.
42:21
Andrea: So uh I do know this thing about complexity, not while I'm shooting, but after the fact that's a good example of it, right?
42:33
Andrea: Sensual love and darkness, but that's not a conscious pairing for me.
42:39
Andrea: Um, but it's certainly in the books and it's in the work.
42:44
Andrea: I can see it since he has pointed it out.
42:48
Matt: Yeah, such a beautiful match.
42:50
Matt: It's just such a beautiful matching.
42:52
Matt: So um, you know, kudos to to him, of course, but also to you for creating such yeah, just such very, very moving words, very, very moving images.
43:01
Matt: A short note before we close.
43:04
Matt: For a while now, the first thing I've done most mornings before the camera or any other work or before the coffee, before the endless tabs, is sit 10, 20, 30 minutes just watching the noise inside my head do what noise does.
43:21
Matt: It hasn't just made me calmer in the way people imagine, it's made me more honest, more mindful, more compassionate, and more free in more ways than I could even describe.
43:32
Matt: And that honesty and introspective clarity, more than any lens, workshop, or book, is really what changed my photography.
43:41
Matt: The work I make now comes from a quieter place with more clearness and calmness.
43:47
Matt: I notice what I'm reaching for, and I notice when I'm reaching for the wrong thing.
43:52
Matt: The inner critic still talks, still exists, I just don't believe everything he says anymore.
43:57
Matt: The app I've used for most of this is.
43:59
Matt: Waking Up by Sam Harris.
44:02
Matt: It's the one tool I've genuinely kept returning to all this time.
44:06
Matt: This is not a paid sponsorship from them.
44:08
Matt: However, I am an affiliate partner, and for good reason, I believe that this app is worth it more than any other.
44:16
Matt: What's kept me there for years is that it's not just one thing, it's a guided daily meditation, which is the spine of it for me, but there are also short daily reflections, a daily quote that tends to do its own quiet work in the background, and these little moments, they call it, of awareness you can drop into during the day.
44:37
Matt: Two-minute resets when the head starts running.
44:40
Matt: There's also an entire library of guest series with teachers I'd never have found on my own, and a lot more besides that.
44:49
Matt: It keeps the practice alive instead of letting it calcify into routine.
44:54
Matt: So a link sits in the show notes for a free 30-day trial and 20% discount on their subscriptions.
45:00
Matt: If you want the longer story, though, of how meditation reshaped my work, there's also a piece linked through my Substack page called There's No Self-Development Without Self-Awareness.
45:12
Matt: Anyway, I hope you enjoy.
45:13
Matt: Thanks for listening.
45:15
Matt: I just want to move on.
45:17
Matt: We're getting close to running out of time.
45:20
Matt: I want to kind of look to what you're doing now.
45:22
Matt: I want to talk about printing a little bit.
45:24
Matt: That's such a big part of your process.
45:26
Matt: And as we sit here today in 2026, the world is changing extremely rap, extremely rapidly.
45:33
Matt: When you're doing your exhibitions, you know, you have two going on at the moment, which we'll put in the description and we'll we'll we'll promote through the this episode, of course.
45:42
Matt: So anyone's in the area, we obviously want to go and check this out, and hopefully I will be before it finishes.
45:49
Matt: But what what is the importance of printing to you and and and second to that, the importance of you doing the printing yourself?
45:57
Matt: We touched upon it earlier, but in today's world where we live in social media, um, digitization, AI just taking over everything.
46:06
Matt: Why is printing and the the print for photographs and photographers so important to you?
46:15
Andrea: Well, this is a really simple answer to start with.
46:20
Andrea: I like making the prints.
46:23
Andrea: I just enjoy being in that space without too many interruptions or distractions in a dim room.
46:33
Andrea: Um if there's music on, maybe I'm streaming an old movie in the background, something I've seen a dozen times.
46:43
Andrea: Uh I rarely do anything I have to pay much attention to.
46:47
Andrea: I know I rarely have anything in the background I have to pay much attention to.
46:51
Andrea: Um, but it is just something uh very uh soothing.
46:56
Andrea: It's just a place where I feel comfort and happiness making those prints.
47:03
Andrea: And then like photography, when a print is good, I'm just uh out of out of my mind, happy.
47:10
Andrea: And it's really uh it's important to be able to show those somehow.
47:17
Andrea: And they might just be, you know, in a box and I take them out and show somebody, but it's such a privilege to have shows, which you know, they're uh I you know, the thing about shows is they're so often connected to commerce and fashion, right?
47:35
Andrea: What what is what is fashionable at that moment.
47:40
Andrea: And that's a very complicated thing in terms of career.
47:45
Andrea: Uh so that I've lived long enough that, you know, I've had ups and downs, which is you know, they're not entirely they're not in my control at all.
47:56
Andrea: I mean, I've never stopped working.
47:58
Andrea: So that's fascinating.
48:01
Andrea: Um and uh now at this stage in my life, I'm I feel lucky to have shows and grateful uh to the smart people who meaning smart in terms of how they're again editing and sequencing, showing me things about the work.
48:18
Andrea: And uh, you know, giving me a place to put to put the put to put the prints.
48:25
Matt: Yeah.
48:27
Andrea: Yeah.
48:29
Matt: What so what um what do you, you know, you've obviously been teaching for a long time as well.
48:33
Matt: I think you started at relatively early age uh in terms of teaching, but what do you what are we not talking about enough or what are we not focusing on enough as as emerging photographers?
48:44
Matt: And what do you kind of try to infuse in the the generations that come through?
48:50
Matt: And like some big big points that we're maybe not or maybe getting distracted away from or things that are really important to you when you're you're teaching the the youngsters.
49:02
Andrea: Well, remember earlier I was saying, you know, when I look at my own work and I'm trying to make a decision about whether or not it's heavy-handed or it's complex, I always need to point to things in the picture to support what I think the picture's doing, right?
49:21
Andrea: And that's what I teach.
49:23
Andrea: So that um ideas are great, uh, but you're making a physical object or something for the screen.
49:31
Andrea: You're making something that you need to be able to point to to support what you're saying.
49:36
Andrea: And uh so I I help the students create a language uh so that they can be on their own later and make decisions about what to put out in the book.
49:50
Andrea: So I don't want them to depend on us as teachers for that.
49:55
Andrea: We use that language, we are constantly looking at the wall and pointing to things.
50:00
Andrea: And I have my students make prints, work prints, of course, so they, you know, had something to point to.
50:07
Andrea: Um, and the other thing is, of course, hard work, uh, need I say, um, that uh as a photographer, uh at any point in in your life, uh, our lives, you know, the camera is the instrument and we need to practice every day or do something every day, and and then it just becomes who you are.
50:27
Andrea: I don't know if I'd wish that on anybody I love, but if somebody's paying for an attention, they have to hear it.
50:34
Andrea: And then uh maybe another important point uh after all that is that um we all, I hope, came to photography uh with joy.
50:47
Andrea: And um that's too often lost.
50:51
Andrea: And what's the point uh in a world where it's possible nobody is ever really going to care about what you do?
51:00
Andrea: Now, we do teach them how to get their work out there and how to get jobs.
51:03
Andrea: We have a co-op program at Drexel.
51:06
Andrea: So I I I should I shouldn't say nobody'll ever care, but the w while you're making the work, as I said earlier, the greatest prize is the process of making the work.
51:18
Andrea: So you've already won, and then you learn how to decipher what is worth putting in the world and what the function of different kinds of uh work is.
51:28
Andrea: But but through all that hard work, it's so easy, especially for a young person, this world, this economy, you know, what we're what what's happening in education right now and the arts so easy to learn to to lose the joy.
51:49
Andrea: And that's something I keep always bringing back to the table.
51:53
Andrea: Like, yeah, you put what you you go to work every day, just like a banker, you know, put on your little photo suit and tie, you go to work every day, whether you want to or not.
52:05
Andrea: It's your job now, right?
52:07
Andrea: But it's also a job that has to do with creativity.
52:13
Andrea: There's a tremendous, tremendous, there should be a tremendous amount of failure.
52:17
Andrea: So there has to be, uh and it took me a long time to learn this, um, uh joy elsewhere in your life.
52:25
Andrea: Uh so um that you are surrounding yourself with people who, you know, as I feel Larry did for me, friends who, you know, understand you and love you despite, you know, all the all the quirks.
52:44
Andrea: And um also, you know, people who don't want anything from you.
52:48
Andrea: They just like you and love you.
52:51
Andrea: Uh and um that's something that I don't think we talk much about somehow to to younger people.
53:00
Andrea: So I bring that to the classroom and also, you know, how uh that needs to start with their understanding that whoever they are uh is their power.
53:11
Andrea: So if they're male, that's their power.
53:14
Andrea: If they're female, that's their power, short, tall, all of it.
53:18
Andrea: And that that power is going to change as time changes, as they get older, as they parent, as they marry, as they or uh whatever they end up doing, become a priest, I don't know.
53:32
Andrea: Their power is gonna change.
53:34
Andrea: And and on some level, you really have to foster that.
53:38
Andrea: And and that means, again, on some level, loving yourself and taking care of yourself.
53:43
Andrea: So I even talk about, you know, things like maybe eating well or you know not, you know, having fun, but maybe not being terribly self-destructive, you know, which is where you're again like having relationships that are positive.
54:01
Andrea: Nobody ever told me any of that when I was young.
54:05
Andrea: And Lord knows I've made all the mistakes over and over again.
54:09
Andrea: So I think this is all well-suited, uh, a well-suited conversation to a profession which is largely, largely about failure.
54:22
Matt: Yeah.
54:23
Andrea: Most of the pictures we take are stinky, and I'm at the top of that list.
54:30
Matt: Oh, I mean, I'm glad you said that.
54:32
Matt: There's there's a lot there to to touch on um before we close, but I I think that relationship with failure is absolutely paramount.
54:41
Matt: I should say healthy relationship with failure is absolutely paramount in photography, especially if you're shooting 8x10 or you know, analog, you know, that you have to have a relationship with failure and patience.
54:54
Matt: And I think to do that, you have to have a healthy relationship with yourself, right?
54:58
Matt: And that you know, knowing myself very well, I talk about this all the time, whether it be mindfulness or you know, healthy eating or just having a good relationship with yourself and uh, like you said, not taking it too seriously and trying to try to keep the fun in it, but um, you you can't create good stuff from a place of um you know, unhealthy mind or not knowing oneself because then you don't know what you really care about.
55:22
Matt: And if you don't know what you really care about, you don't really know what to point the camera at or how to make sense of it.
55:27
Matt: A lot of people chase that struggling, damaged artist.
55:33
Matt: Uh, they feel, and this is in my experience of talking to so many people, they feel that if I'm not damaged and I'm not suffering, then I can't make impactful art.
55:43
Matt: And I get that because exactly how you you just inferred with uh many, many, you know, thousands of artists uh around the world have made life-changing pieces of art from a place of suffering.
55:58
Matt: All I'm trying to say is that that isn't the only option.
56:02
Matt: And if we're not gonna take this, you know, too seriously, take ourselves too seriously, then I think that um you know that there's an importance to at least being mindful of of who we are as human beings without getting lost in this chase to to suffer because we feel it might make something more meaningful or more cool or more apparent to people.
56:27
Andrea: Or some of the suffering, which might be part of who you are and your history, your trauma, can be incorporated, but it doesn't have to be everything that's there, because by the way, that's not terribly complex either.
56:45
Matt: Yeah, and we're I'm not saying that ev and no one's got their shit together, right?
56:50
Matt: It's everyone's suffering to to some aspect, but to make that the work, it it's a it's a you know, it's like you said, it's short often short-lived, uh difficult to sustain it, and um, you know, it depends what you what you want out of it at the end of the day, but it's an interesting, interesting topic.
57:07
Andrea: It is.
57:07
Andrea: And I I would rather, if you ask, you're asking me about my students, I would rather somebody in their lives tell them something along these lines.
57:18
Andrea: You know, chances are their parents don't understand what it is to choose a life of creativity and failure.
57:26
Andrea: So this is something that I I wish somebody had explained to me.
57:31
Andrea: Yeah.
57:32
Andrea: Yeah.
57:35
Matt: What's um what's on the on the horizon, Andrea?
57:38
Matt: You you know you've got some obviously exhibitions and probably doing a lot of PR for the book.
57:43
Matt: And what's what's next for you?
57:44
Matt: You're taking a break?
57:45
Matt: Are you still in it every day, obviously teaching?
57:49
Andrea: I'm shooting.
57:50
Andrea: I've um I am photographing uh uh pretty pretty steadily still.
57:56
Andrea: Yeah.
57:59
Matt: Um can we look out for other other pieces of uh publication coming up?
58:05
Andrea: Yes, you will, but uh I can't but it's secret.
58:08
Andrea: I'm not ready to it's not that it's a secret, it's that if you know something's in I'm in the process of doing something, I really don't know what it is.
58:16
Andrea: Oh my goodness, may I say that I definitely don't know what it is while I'm in the middle of it.
58:24
Andrea: That's another place you have to learn how to live.
58:27
Matt: I was gonna say feel comfortable in that unknown, yeah.
58:30
Andrea: Total state of confusion.
58:32
Andrea: And maybe have, you know, a small, small cohort, maybe one person who you show your work to who you know is gonna be, you know, supportive.
58:43
Matt: Yeah, I'm in that I'm in that place right now, and I've got you know a portfolio review coming up in November, and then I'm looking at going to Chico again in March, and I'm just thinking, I don't know if I'm gonna have my shit together by any of those points.
58:54
Matt: But just being immersed in that, I don't know where to turn, I don't know what to make of this, and being okay with that, you know, confusion and un uncertainty and and understanding that's trying to enjoy that that's part of the the process, right?
59:09
Matt: Andrew, um what is there anything else that you we want to touch upon that maybe I haven't covered, or is there anything else that you want to you know contribute before we we sign off?
59:22
Andrea: Oh my, I I don't I don't think so.
59:24
Andrea: I feel like we've covered a lot.
59:26
Matt: Yeah, we've covered a lot.
59:27
Matt: It's been a wonderful, I don't know where the hour has gone, but thank you again for spending your Thursday evening with me.
59:34
Matt: I really do appreciate it.
59:35
Matt: Very grateful.
59:36
Matt: And um will you be in Paris this year?
59:39
Andrea: I will.
59:40
Andrea: Okay.
59:40
Andrea: Uh we'll signing uh uh books at the Latieret table Saturday at four o'clock.
59:46
Andrea: So I'd love to meet any of the listeners who want to stop by.
59:52
Matt: We have um I run a private community, we have about 10 of us going.
59:56
Matt: So we'll we'll try and um uh encourage people to to buy your book for a start and then bring it along with them so they can get it signed.
1:00:04
Matt: Uh but I imagine we can buy books there.
1:00:07
Andrea: Oh yes.
1:00:08
Andrea: At Latier at the table, also TIS has the um um I think they'll have my book, a teatro mcquorum.
1:00:16
Andrea: Uh yeah.
1:00:18
Matt: Cool.
1:00:19
Matt: Well I look forward to to meeting you in Paris and getting a signature.
1:00:22
Matt: And in the meantime, take good care of yourself and thank you once again.
1:00:26
Andrea: Thank you, Matt.
1:00:27
Andrea: Thank you so much.
1:00:29
Andrea: This has been great.