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Space Force Unveiled: The Surprising Reality of Weapons in Orbit · Space Nuts: Astronomy Insights & Cosmic Discoveries

• 0:00
  Andrew Dunkley: Hello, thanks for joining us. This is Space
• 0:02
  Nuts, where we talk astronomy, space science
• 0:05
  and all sorts of weird and wonderful things.
• 0:07
  This one though, uh, one of the stories we're
• 0:10
  covering today, uh, sort of
• 0:12
  dovetails into something we talked about not,
• 0:15
  um, so long ago regarding Space
• 0:18
  Force. No, it's not a sequel to their, uh,
• 0:20
  unveiling of their uniforms, but it
• 0:23
  is something we have talked about recently.
• 0:25
  So the penny might drop with, uh, a few
• 0:27
  people as to what that might be. We'll get
• 0:30
  into that shortly. And should we be calling
• 0:33
  Mars the purple planet? I'll tell you
• 0:35
  why. And they've found yet another big crater
• 0:38
  on the moon. We'll talk about all of that on,
• 0:41
  uh, the latest episode of space nuts.
• 0:44
  Professor Fred Watson: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.
• 0:47
  10, 9. Ignition
• 0:49
  sequence start.
• 0:51
  Professor Fred Watson: Space nuts.
• 0:51
  Professor Fred Watson: 5, 4, 3. 2. 1. 2, 3, 4,
• 0:54
  5, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.
• 0:56
  Andrew Dunkley: Space nuts.
• 0:58
  Professor Fred Watson: Astronauts report it feels good.
• 1:01
  Andrew Dunkley: And he joins us again and, uh, we're so
• 1:04
  happy to have him. It's Professor Fred Watson
• 1:05
  Watson, astronomer at large. Hello,
• 1:07
  Fred Watson.
• 1:08
  Professor Fred Watson: Hello, Andrew.
• 1:09
  Hello, M. I think we both had a busy week,
• 1:11
  haven't we? It's amazing we can squeeze these
• 1:13
  in. Yes, yes.
• 1:14
  Andrew Dunkley: Uh, it's crazy. Uh, and, and
• 1:17
  uh, next week's going to be even worse for me
• 1:19
  with, um, a major golf tournament at our
• 1:21
  club, which I'm heavily involved in
• 1:25
  and I think not only on the organising side
• 1:27
  of it. I've got to play for 18 whole
• 1:30
  rounds in, um,
• 1:33
  six days or something. Oh, gosh, I
• 1:36
  don't know. Why do we do these things to
• 1:39
  ourselves, Fred Watson?
• 1:41
  Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:42
  Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, it'll be fun. It'll be fun.
• 1:45
  Um, it'll probably help me sleep on the
• 1:48
  plane when we do our trip in a, in a couple
• 1:50
  of weeks time. Although by the time this
• 1:52
  episode gets released, um, I, I don't
• 1:55
  know where we'll be. But, um, let's get down
• 1:58
  to business. We have got so much to talk
• 2:00
  about.
• 2:00
  And this first story has probably
• 2:04
  shocked, um, a few people that have uh, now
• 2:07
  heard the news, uh, involving Space
• 2:10
  Force and their um,
• 2:13
  announcement that there are in fact
• 2:17
  weapons in orbit around Earth.
• 2:19
  We talked about this not so long ago,
• 2:21
  Fred Watson, and we just assumed that's
• 2:23
  probably the case. But no one's admitting
• 2:25
  anything. Well now the United States has
• 2:28
  actually fessed up.
• 2:30
  Professor Fred Watson: Uh, they have. That's right, with an
• 2:32
  announcement, uh, which I've currently lost.
• 2:37
  Uh, but is. Here we are.
• 2:40
  Uh, it was, came from the secretary, uh, of
• 2:42
  the Air Force, um, whose
• 2:45
  name is Tony Meek. I think that's how it's
• 2:48
  pronounced. Uh, and this was at a
• 2:51
  conference on airspace and
• 2:53
  cyber, uh, and the
• 2:56
  secretary of the Air Force or Air Force
• 2:59
  said today we continue to ensure we remain
• 3:02
  ready to meet the challenges of evolving
• 3:04
  threats wherever they exist. This is why the
• 3:07
  United States now has on orbit
• 3:10
  space control weapons capable of defending
• 3:13
  the joint force against hostile adversary
• 3:15
  action. So, um,
• 3:18
  you know, it's one of these things pretty
• 3:21
  well, as you said that we've talked about
• 3:23
  before, that we've
• 3:26
  tacitly assumed, uh, certain other powers
• 3:28
  have weapons in space, but nobody's ever
• 3:31
  come up front and said it. Um,
• 3:34
  and so the, uh,
• 3:37
  admission by the secretary of the Air Force
• 3:39
  is quite significant. So,
• 3:42
  uh, it sounds as though
• 3:45
  there's a whole retinue of
• 3:48
  possibilities that this might include.
• 3:51
  My first thought was electromagnetic weapons,
• 3:53
  lasers, um, because that's what
• 3:56
  the Reagan administration were looking at
• 3:58
  back in the 1980s, the
• 4:01
  Reagan star wars programme.
• 4:04
  But, uh, we now have, um,
• 4:07
  I, uh, guess a whole array of things that
• 4:09
  probably weren't around then. Um, including
• 4:12
  directed energy by lasers,
• 4:15
  uh, or radio frequency jammers. But also
• 4:17
  there are chemical sprayers, uh, there's net
• 4:20
  equipment, microwave devices. Once again,
• 4:23
  that's electromagnetic or
• 4:26
  basically just good old fashioned
• 4:28
  kinetic impact. Uh, in other words,
• 4:32
  something into.
• 4:32
  Andrew Dunkley: Crash into something.
• 4:33
  Professor Fred Watson: That's right, yeah. Uh, so, uh,
• 4:36
  yeah, really interesting, uh, to read that.
• 4:39
  Uh, the first thing I did when I read this
• 4:41
  last week or earlier in the week was to
• 4:45
  check what the, um, International
• 4:47
  Space Outer space treaty of
• 4:49
  1967 says about weapons. What
• 4:52
  it specifically, um,
• 4:56
  prohibits is nuclear, uh,
• 4:59
  weapons. They are, uh,
• 5:02
  definitely prohibited by the
• 5:05
  treaty, though it doesn't mention
• 5:08
  non nuclear weapons. On the other hand,
• 5:11
  it does say that, um, you know,
• 5:14
  the International Space Treaty is all about
• 5:16
  the peaceful uses of outer space.
• 5:19
  Um, and so it sort of tends to rule out, uh,
• 5:23
  something that's not peaceful.
• 5:26
  Andrew Dunkley: And Earth is very upset by that news.
• 5:28
  Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.
• 5:28
  Professor Fred Watson: Ah, I, uh, need to keep an eye on him
• 5:31
  because I'm his soul,
• 5:34
  Andrew Dunkley: um, soul carer today.
• 5:36
  Professor Fred Watson: Not carer. Um, Yeah, I
• 5:39
  don't know what the word is.
• 5:42
  Uh, I'm his soul support. Just give me a
• 5:45
  second, Andrew. I've got to find out what's
• 5:47
  going on.
• 5:47
  Andrew Dunkley: Okay.
• 5:48
  Professor Fred Watson: Ah.
• 5:50
  Andrew Dunkley: Ah, it happens sometimes.
• 5:52
  Um, we've got one across the road that does
• 5:55
  exactly the same thing whenever the wind
• 5:57
  changes. Just goes off its proverbial nut
• 6:01
  and, um.
• 6:03
  Professor Fred Watson: What's your problem?
• 6:03
  Andrew Dunkley: I can't see him at the moment. But it's only
• 6:06
  a puppy. See, it doesn't understand,
• 6:09
  but, um, it drives people crazy
• 6:13
  sometimes.
• 6:14
  Professor Fred Watson: Um.
• 6:14
  Professor Fred Watson: Come on.
• 6:15
  Andrew Dunkley: All right. I Think we're going to have an
• 6:18
  added guest to the show by the sound of it.
• 6:20
  Professor Fred Watson: Good lad. Yes, sit down,
• 6:24
  make yourself at home. No idea
• 6:27
  what that was about. Sorry about that,
• 6:28
  Andrew.
• 6:29
  Andrew Dunkley: It could have just been a butterfly,
• 6:30
  Fred Watson.
• 6:31
  Who knows?
• 6:32
  Professor Fred Watson: Usually it's a leaf.
• 6:34
  Andrew Dunkley: That's what I was saying.
• 6:35
  Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.
• 6:36
  Andrew Dunkley: Or a change of breeze.
• 6:37
  Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, something like that.
• 6:39
  Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.
• 6:39
  Andrew Dunkley: Um, back to our topic. That's okay. Uh,
• 6:42
  back to our topic.
• 6:43
  Uh, I just did uh, a bit of a search
• 6:46
  on um, an AI platform to see
• 6:49
  what sort of weapons could potentially be in
• 6:52
  orbit around the planet at the moment.
• 6:53
  Because they're not going to confess to what
• 6:55
  exactly they've got, I imagine. Um,
• 6:57
  but anti satellite interceptors, electro
• 7:01
  magnetic, um, or electronic warfare jamming
• 7:04
  robotic co. Orbital weapons,
• 7:07
  uh, directed energy weapons. Conventional
• 7:09
  missile launches from orbit would be
• 7:12
  possible. Uh, this one's interesting.
• 7:14
  Kinetic tungsten projectiles.
• 7:17
  Uh, you were talking about kinetic weapons.
• 7:20
  Nuclear, uh, weapons are uh,
• 7:22
  technically plaus, but as you said,
• 7:25
  outlawed by uh, the Outer Space Treaty.
• 7:28
  And chemical and biological weapons in orbit.
• 7:31
  Uh, but again, um,
• 7:34
  there's possible prohibition of those.
• 7:37
  So um, you got to wonder whether or
• 7:39
  not that particular thought.
• 7:43
  Professor Fred Watson: Did you say biological?
• 7:45
  Andrew Dunkley: No, chemical?
• 7:46
  Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.
• 7:46
  Andrew Dunkley: Chemical and biological.
• 7:48
  Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. You would want to keep those out
• 7:51
  of space, I guess.
• 7:53
  Andrew Dunkley: I've been reading a book, uh, by John
• 7:56
  Birmingham, an Australian sci fi author
• 7:58
  called World War 3.0. I think I've mentioned
• 8:01
  it before. Great, great series. And
• 8:05
  it involves the fact that um, uh,
• 8:08
  a uh, task force from the future ended up
• 8:11
  getting sent back to World War II and
• 8:16
  it changed the world. And uh, Stalin, because
• 8:19
  they had access to all the history of what
• 8:21
  was going to happen to them that hadn't
• 8:23
  happened yet. Uh, people like
• 8:25
  Stalin didn't end up dying as early as
• 8:29
  we know, um, and developed weapons uh,
• 8:32
  of mass destruction that were fired from
• 8:34
  space and attacked NATO with kinetic
• 8:37
  tungsten projectiles from space. So it's
• 8:40
  really interesting that that turned up on the
• 8:41
  list.
• 8:42
  Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right. Ah, it's pretty sharp. Uh,
• 8:45
  is Mr. Uh, Birmingham.
• 8:47
  Andrew Dunkley: It sure is.
• 8:47
  Professor Fred Watson: Gig with him once, which was great pleasure.
• 8:50
  Yeah.
• 8:50
  Andrew Dunkley: But this is, this is a very um,
• 8:53
  dicey subject. Probably a divisive
• 8:56
  subject and one that
• 8:59
  I think is a cause for concern to
• 9:02
  um, a certain degree because
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  um, you know, no one up until now has
• 9:08
  admitted that they have weapons in orbit.
• 9:10
  We've just assumed they probably have. The US
• 9:13
  is the first to actually say, yep, yep, we've
• 9:16
  done it. They're up there. We
• 9:19
  don't know what they are though, do we?
• 9:21
  Exactly.
• 9:22
  Professor Fred Watson: No and, and with, you know, with other
• 9:25
  nations that almost certainly have them too,
• 9:27
  uh, it's still a matter of conjecture because
• 9:29
  they're even less likely to uh,
• 9:32
  to, to give us details of what they've got in
• 9:35
  space.
• 9:36
  Andrew Dunkley: The reasoning behind this has been suggested
• 9:38
  that we, we need to um, arm ourselves
• 9:41
  to be ready for whatever threat may exist
• 9:44
  in the future. What kind of threat
• 9:47
  could develop in space? And are
• 9:50
  we talking weapons that are going to be used
• 9:52
  in space against something else in space,
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  or are they looking at weapons that they can
• 9:58
  use from space to the
• 10:01
  ground? Aim at a target on Earth?
• 10:03
  Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.
• 10:04
  Andrew Dunkley: Or is it both?
• 10:05
  Professor Fred Watson: It could be both, but I think the former is
• 10:07
  the one that is the one they're most upfront
• 10:10
  about. Um, there was a comment uh,
• 10:15
  from uh, actually um, Dr.
• 10:18
  Malcolm Davis, who's a senior analyst at the
• 10:20
  Australian Strategic Policy Institute,
• 10:23
  um, who says Space Force is a
• 10:26
  direct response to the growing Russian
• 10:29
  and Chinese anti satellite and anti space
• 10:31
  capabilities, particularly anti satellite
• 10:34
  missile systems as displayed by the Chinese
• 10:37
  in 2007. Uh, and that's,
• 10:40
  I uh, guess um, some of the um, things
• 10:43
  that we know about because of the DEB that
• 10:45
  was released when they were tested.
• 10:48
  Uh, so uh, it's uh, you know.
• 10:51
  Ah, you're absolutely right.
• 10:53
  There's two conversations here. There's the
• 10:55
  one you know, that's up front
• 10:58
  the sort of we know nothing conversation. And
• 11:00
  yet underneath that uh, there's a very, very
• 11:03
  detailed analysis of what's going on
• 11:06
  uh, and what is basically
• 11:09
  likely to be possible. Another comment from
• 11:11
  Malcolm Davis. Uh, the decision to combine
• 11:14
  the space capabilities across the various
• 11:15
  branches, a standalone branch of the US
• 11:18
  Armed Forces which is equal to branches like
• 11:20
  the US Navy or US Air Force is an important
• 11:23
  step forward and highlights how important the
• 11:25
  US considers the space domain.
• 11:28
  So that's, yes, that's another possible uh,
• 11:31
  uh, another comment there. I mean to some
• 11:34
  extent that's really regarding the formation
• 11:36
  of the Space Force which happened some time
• 11:39
  ago.
• 11:41
  Andrew Dunkley: Would it be too long a bow to draw, no
• 11:43
  pun intended, that um, they're doing this
• 11:46
  because they know the others have to.
• 11:49
  Professor Fred Watson: Um. Yes. I don't think that's a longbow at
• 11:52
  all. I think that's very likely.
• 11:55
  Yeah.
• 11:56
  Andrew Dunkley: It's sad isn't it? I mean we shouldn't be
• 11:58
  surprised. Uh, we lock our doors
• 12:00
  because we don't trust people that walk past
• 12:03
  our houses. This is just a very
• 12:06
  elaborate and high tech orbital version of
• 12:08
  that, I think.
• 12:09
  Professor Fred Watson: Yes it is. Yeah, yeah, that's mhm.
• 12:11
  Professor Fred Watson: Right.
• 12:13
  Andrew Dunkley: And that's unfortunately human nature. Ah.
• 12:15
  And we, we have.
• 12:17
  And in fact when you, when you read um, into
• 12:19
  it deeply, the article
• 12:22
  that we're referring to in
• 12:24
  arstechnica.com says what is
• 12:26
  clear is there is now an arms race in
• 12:29
  orbit. Uh, and, and we, I
• 12:32
  didn't mention the you know, potential
• 12:34
  antagonist but uh, I don't think you would
• 12:37
  get much money back from a bet on it being
• 12:39
  Russia and China.
• 12:40
  Professor Fred Watson: Yes.
• 12:41
  Andrew Dunkley: So it's um, it's, it's no surprise
• 12:43
  at all. Uh, who knows where it leads
• 12:46
  Fred Watson, that's, that's the next
• 12:47
  question. You know what, what could happen
• 12:49
  next? Uh, ah, are we going to see
• 12:52
  at some stage in the future an all out
• 12:54
  assault, Satellites versus satellites?
• 12:58
  I don't know.
• 12:59
  Professor Fred Watson: It could um, I mean that could change our
• 13:01
  world completely because of the absolute
• 13:03
  dependence that we have on space technology.
• 13:07
  Yeah, pretty well. Everything we do,
• 13:09
  including what you and I are doing now goes
• 13:12
  through space.
• 13:14
  Andrew Dunkley: Ah, it wouldn't surprise me either if there
• 13:17
  was some major conflict in the future. Uh,
• 13:20
  one of the strategic targets would be
• 13:23
  communications, uh, satellites and
• 13:26
  military satellites.
• 13:27
  Professor Fred Watson: That's right.
• 13:28
  Andrew Dunkley: So yeah, here it is, it's all ready to go and
• 13:32
  another um, arms race is upon us.
• 13:35
  If you'd like to read about that. Uh, As I
• 13:37
  said, arstechnica.com has
• 13:40
  written a um, quite uh, significant
• 13:43
  article explaining what is happening. But
• 13:46
  yes, the United States is the first to admit
• 13:49
  that they have weapons in orbit.
• 13:52
  This is Space Nuts with Andrew Dunkley and
• 13:54
  Professor Fred Watson Watson.
• 13:58
  Professor Fred Watson: I'm going to step off the land mountain.
• 14:02
  That's one small step for man,
• 14:07
  one
• 14:10
  Andrew Dunkley: Space Nuts. Okay Fred Watson, let's
• 14:13
  go to Mars. Uh, it is a um,
• 14:15
  beautiful planet. Uh, I saw a photo the other
• 14:18
  day of a sunset on,
• 14:21
  on Mars and it is just
• 14:24
  you know, nothing like we get on Earth. It's,
• 14:27
  it's a beautiful sight. And
• 14:30
  uh, interestingly enough when the sun is
• 14:31
  setting on mar, the sky turns blue as
• 14:34
  against. When the sun is setting on Earth the
• 14:36
  sky turns red. Um, what
• 14:39
  they've discovered now is that uh, maybe we
• 14:42
  should be starting to think about uh, start
• 14:44
  to think about calling it the purple planet
• 14:46
  because uh, down near the south pole there
• 14:48
  are some landscapes that just
• 14:52
  the photos, I can't describe
• 14:55
  them. That will do them justice I think is
• 14:57
  what I'm trying to say.
• 14:58
  Professor Fred Watson: Uh, that's right.
• 15:01
  I'm always hesitant Andrew to pick
• 15:03
  out stories that um, rely heavily
• 15:06
  on visual images because a lot of our
• 15:08
  listeners just listen rather than watch.
• 15:11
  Uh, but it's well worth having a
• 15:14
  look at these. Um, perhaps the best site is
• 15:17
  uh, The European Space Agency site.
• 15:20
  Uh, Purple Swirls on the Red Planet. Uh,
• 15:23
  it's basically a press release came out
• 15:25
  last um, in fact a couple of days ago. Uh,
• 15:28
  and it's a nice, it's a region around
• 15:31
  Mars south pole which is being
• 15:33
  illuminated from pretty low angle,
• 15:37
  uh as you'd expect near the south pole.
• 15:39
  Um, but the colours are ah, exactly as you've
• 15:42
  said. The colours are what make this quite
• 15:43
  dramatic. Striking swirls as they describe
• 15:46
  it, of purple, pink and red. It's a far cry
• 15:49
  from the colour palette we usually associate
• 15:51
  with the red planet. Yeah, so, yeah, very,
• 15:53
  very interesting. And I think the reds and
• 15:56
  browns, um, they do come not from
• 15:59
  uh, sunset illumination as you've
• 16:02
  already indicated. The sky is blue on Mars at
• 16:05
  sunset. Uh, but it
• 16:08
  comes from the dust, the
• 16:10
  oxidised iron, uh, the dust in the
• 16:12
  atmosphere, the dust that settles on pretty
• 16:15
  well all the surfaces just because uh,
• 16:18
  of the winds that blow on Mars. Um, and
• 16:21
  so uh, there's lots of uh,
• 16:24
  of red in perhaps
• 16:27
  all its manifestations from pink to
• 16:30
  purple, um, sometimes almost
• 16:32
  white but still with that reddish hue. Uh,
• 16:35
  and it's a region uh, called uh,
• 16:38
  Thyles Rupus. I uh, beg your
• 16:41
  pardon? Rupes. Rupes is uh, a Latin
• 16:44
  word for cliff or wall. Thales
• 16:47
  is actually uh, refers to Thule.
• 16:49
  Thule which we used to talk about. Ultima
• 16:52
  Thule was the name that we used to give to
• 16:54
  Arrokoth, the Furth known object that's
• 16:57
  been visited by a spacecraft. So,
• 17:00
  um, these are materials
• 17:03
  which uh, seem to be
• 17:06
  as well due to volcanic activity to some
• 17:09
  extent. Um, a comment on the ESA uh
• 17:12
  website says that the volcanic
• 17:14
  activity leaves environments um,
• 17:17
  rich in materials such as olivine and
• 17:19
  pyroxene, both of which are prevalent in
• 17:22
  Earth's mantle. Um, and those layers of
• 17:25
  rock actually not far below the crust of our
• 17:28
  planet, although that's quite thick. But
• 17:30
  yeah, some really interesting geology there.
• 17:32
  Um, lots of craters in the region, uh,
• 17:35
  evidence of perhaps a glacier there as well.
• 17:38
  Uh, given that we're near the, near the pole.
• 17:41
  Uh, so, um, well worth a look if our
• 17:43
  listeners want to check it out. Purple Swirls
• 17:45
  on the Red planet.
• 17:46
  Andrew Dunkley: Yes, I just sent the link to our live
• 17:48
  audience so those that are in the chat room
• 17:51
  can uh, click on it and have a look at some
• 17:53
  of these pictures. Uh, they are truly
• 17:55
  extraordinary. I think
• 17:58
  Fred Watson, uh, that um, these
• 18:01
  images were impossible in the
• 18:04
  recent past, but they are now
• 18:07
  um, more and more significant and
• 18:10
  more and more detailed because the technology
• 18:12
  is just getting so much better. The High
• 18:14
  definition cameras that are available,
• 18:17
  um, the super pixel cameras, whatever you
• 18:20
  want to call them, uh, that can take these
• 18:22
  images and create such
• 18:25
  fine detail, it's really amazing.
• 18:28
  Professor Fred Watson: Well, uh, that's certainly true, uh, but Mars
• 18:31
  Express, when was it launched? It's probably
• 18:33
  about 20 years ago I think.
• 18:36
  Um, let's just check when it
• 18:38
  went into space. I can do that.
• 18:41
  Andrew Dunkley: I'm raising you 6-2-2003.
• 18:45
  Professor Fred Watson: Got it.
• 18:45
  Yeah, there you go. 23 years ago. So that is
• 18:49
  pretty uh, legacy technology I
• 18:51
  think you'd say. And imagine what you could
• 18:54
  do now given that the high resolution
• 18:57
  cameras um, aboard Mars Express
• 19:00
  are probably only comparable, uh,
• 19:03
  with the cameras that are in our
• 19:05
  smartphones, rather than being comparable
• 19:08
  with the camera that's on the Vera C. Rubin
• 19:10
  Observatory's telescope, uh, which is the
• 19:13
  size of a bus.
• 19:14
  Andrew Dunkley: Yes, yes, I think I've said it before that
• 19:17
  uh, the technology uh, in a
• 19:20
  standard smartphone today, uh, far
• 19:23
  exceeds the computer capacity of
• 19:26
  um, the Apollo 11 mission.
• 19:30
  And, and I think it was clearly demonstrated
• 19:32
  on Apollo 13, uh, in the movie
• 19:35
  that uh, when, when they were trying to keep
• 19:37
  the astronauts alive and, and reinvent
• 19:40
  their carbon filters, uh, carbon dioxide
• 19:43
  filters and all that jazz, that
• 19:45
  um, they had to sequentially
• 19:49
  turn systems on and off so that
• 19:52
  the batteries wouldn't die and that the
• 19:54
  astronauts would be stranded. And when you
• 19:57
  listen to the dialogue, I mean the amount of
• 20:00
  power they were talking about was minuscule.
• 20:02
  And the um, computer
• 20:05
  capacity of the spacecraft we're
• 20:08
  talking about in those um, late 60s, early
• 20:10
  70s space flights was just.
• 20:14
  You couldn't fit a hundred songs on it.
• 20:17
  Professor Fred Watson: That's absolutely right. I remember, um,
• 20:20
  what year would it have been? 69, I think.
• 20:23
  The party that we had to celebrate,
• 20:27
  uh, our mainframe computer, the
• 20:29
  biggest computer almost in Scotland
• 20:32
  at St Andrews University when its memory was
• 20:35
  upgraded to 256k,
• 20:38
  which. Well, it's not, it's
• 20:41
  about half a song, isn't it? Yeah, it is less
• 20:43
  than half a song.
• 20:46
  Andrew Dunkley: And now you, you drive through a city like
• 20:49
  Canberra, which I did a few weeks ago, and
• 20:51
  you, you drive past massive
• 20:54
  buildings that are the, you know, the size of
• 20:57
  shopping centres and they are 100
• 21:00
  dedicated to data storage.
• 21:02
  It is mind blowing what we hear
• 21:04
  Professor Fred Watson: a lot about, um, data centres and they're
• 21:07
  going to be a big issue. They're certainly a
• 21:09
  big issue here and in the United States about
• 21:12
  whether we want them chewing up our power and
• 21:14
  our water. Um, they are very, very power
• 21:16
  hungry.
• 21:17
  Andrew Dunkley: In particular, I'm not sure I mentioned it
• 21:19
  but they uh, uh, I was listening to
• 21:22
  two fellows that I was playing golf with down
• 21:24
  in Canberra one day that were talking about
• 21:26
  one of the data centres and they said, um,
• 21:29
  did you go into the wind tunnel? And
• 21:32
  uh, my friend said, yeah, I did. It's where
• 21:35
  all the hot air gets blown
• 21:37
  out of the building. Um, and
• 21:40
  I said it's like walking through the Zaharov
• 21:42
  desert. It's just so hot in that tunnel
• 21:45
  because of um, the amount of air that's
• 21:48
  required to cool the servers that are storing
• 21:51
  the data. And it's
• 21:54
  big business now. It's huge.
• 21:57
  We're getting a bit off track but uh, we're
• 21:59
  talking about the advances in technology and
• 22:02
  in terms of um, space
• 22:06
  photography, uh, um, it's probably
• 22:09
  going ahead in leaps and bounds.
• 22:11
  Professor Fred Watson: But just um, recapping what we are talking
• 22:13
  about, that's as we were saying,
• 22:16
  that's 23 year old cameras at least that are
• 22:18
  on Mars Express. But
• 22:21
  what will have improved is the processing
• 22:24
  technology to get the very best images
• 22:26
  out of those. And perhaps that's one reason
• 22:29
  why we're seeing these glorious images
• 22:31
  of um, Mars, Southern moon,
• 22:34
  polar region.
• 22:35
  Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, on that I took some photos uh,
• 22:37
  with my smart telescope the other night.
• 22:40
  I've got some really lovely images and I took
• 22:43
  a really nice one of the moon because it was
• 22:46
  um, I don't think it was a full moon that
• 22:48
  night, but it was damn close and I,
• 22:52
  I thought I'll see what um, ChatGPT
• 22:55
  can do to this. So I, I put the photo in
• 22:57
  ChatGPT and I just said can you sharpen this,
• 23:00
  enhance it a little? I don't want to lose
• 23:04
  the character of the image but I, you know,
• 23:06
  can you, can you ramp up the um,
• 23:09
  uh, the image a bit so that it um, it's got,
• 23:12
  it's a bit more striking. Wow.
• 23:14
  What it did was amazing. Um, yeah, I
• 23:17
  should send you the two shots so you can see
• 23:19
  the
• 23:19
  Professor Fred Watson: difference, but um, to see them.
• 23:21
  Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, yeah, it was, it was quite remarkable
• 23:23
  what it did. Um, so I was
• 23:26
  um, yeah, I was quite, uh,
• 23:28
  quite chuffed with how that turned out. So
• 23:31
  even if you get a really shonky image,
• 23:33
  sometimes you can just load into
• 23:36
  uh, an AI platform and say, well,
• 23:39
  can you do this? And wham, most of the time
• 23:42
  it can. Remarkable what's available to
• 23:45
  us now. And it brings me back to that
• 23:48
  old question.
• 23:48
  If we can do this as everyday people in
• 23:51
  our homes with the AI technology
• 23:54
  that's available, what kind of AI technology
• 23:57
  are they developing or have they developed
• 23:59
  for military services
• 24:02
  and all of those kinds of um,
• 24:06
  things you Just, you know, it's probably way
• 24:08
  beyond our imaginations already.
• 24:11
  Professor Fred Watson: Indeed, I think. Yeah.
• 24:13
  Andrew Dunkley: Anyway, uh, yes, if you would like to see
• 24:15
  those ESA images of
• 24:18
  Mars around the South Pole region, uh, they
• 24:20
  are absolutely beautiful and you can uh, go
• 24:23
  to the ESA.int
• 24:26
  website and check it out. You're listening to
• 24:29
  Space Nuts, a, um,
• 24:32
  standard edition with Andrew Dunkley head
• 24:35
  Professor Fred Watson Watson.
• 24:38
  Professor Fred Watson: Okay.
• 24:39
  Professor Fred Watson: We checked all four systems and being with a
• 24:41
  girl, Space nets.
• 24:42
  Andrew Dunkley: I was about to say Q and A edition, but
• 24:44
  that's, that's next. We do that next. I'm
• 24:47
  getting ahead of myself. Um,
• 24:50
  we go from a very colourful place to a not so
• 24:53
  colourful place. Although the, you know, when
• 24:54
  you talk to the astronauts who have walked on
• 24:56
  the uh, moon, they go, hang on a minute. It
• 24:58
  is actually quite colourful here. You just
• 25:00
  gotta, you know, be pretty close. Uh, yes,
• 25:03
  the moon, uh, the reason it's in the news at
• 25:05
  the moment, to quote my friend Fred Watson
• 25:07
  Watson, is because they've found a new hole,
• 25:10
  uh, a crater and it was almost
• 25:13
  found by accident.
• 25:14
  Fred Watson.
• 25:15
  Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's right. It's people trolling
• 25:17
  through and uh, it's actually NASA
• 25:18
  researchers who are doing this using the
• 25:22
  uh, images from NASA's Lunar
• 25:24
  Reconnaissance Orbiter, uh, which again goes
• 25:27
  back probably a couple of decades, uh, and
• 25:30
  is a phenomenal device for
• 25:33
  imaging the lunar surface. Um,
• 25:36
  so uh, what they do, the
• 25:38
  Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter, it surveys the
• 25:41
  moon's surface on a regular basis and so you
• 25:44
  can tell if something changes.
• 25:47
  And this basically is
• 25:49
  something that has changed. There has been
• 25:53
  uh, an impact on the moon that's
• 25:55
  created a crater quarter of a kilometre
• 25:58
  across, 222 metres, uh, and
• 26:01
  up to 43 metres deep. So this is a
• 26:04
  big hole, um, and it's actually the
• 26:07
  biggest known impact crater that has been
• 26:10
  created in recent times. Uh,
• 26:14
  it fell ah, between uh, two
• 26:17
  surveys or scans of the moon. So we've got,
• 26:20
  we don't have a precise date for it but we
• 26:23
  do have um, a pair
• 26:26
  of dates between which we know uh,
• 26:28
  when that happened. Uh, and
• 26:31
  I've lost the dates now on my scre screen,
• 26:34
  uh so I'll have to rely on you to tell me
• 26:36
  what they are. But it was a relatively short
• 26:38
  interval between the two dates
• 26:41
  that define when this event
• 26:44
  took place.
• 26:45
  Andrew Dunkley: I'm looking, I'm looking, uh, somewhere
• 26:47
  between April 11th and May
• 26:50
  22nd, 2024 they think.
• 26:53
  Professor Fred Watson: Yes. Okay, so these are uh,
• 26:55
  images that were taken a couple of years ago,
• 26:57
  bit more than a couple of years ago but
• 26:59
  nevertheless, uh, still yielding
• 27:02
  uh, new data and so it's, and uh,
• 27:05
  what's I think more striking about this, that
• 27:08
  the diameter and depth of the crater
• 27:11
  uh, are quite impressive. But
• 27:14
  when you look at wide angle images
• 27:17
  um, you can see that there
• 27:20
  is debris spread around for
• 27:22
  quite um, you know, quite a big
• 27:25
  radius, something like seven kilometres wide,
• 27:29
  uh, where you've got basically
• 27:32
  a lower temperature on the moon's surface.
• 27:34
  And that comes about because the, the topsoil
• 27:38
  has been loosened. Uh, it's the
• 27:41
  um, you know, the top few, only the top
• 27:44
  few centimetres, uh, that have been
• 27:47
  stirred up and that's enough to
• 27:49
  reveal a different thermal signature from
• 27:52
  the moon, uh, so it's actually cooler.
• 27:55
  There is a comment um, uh, uh
• 27:58
  in the report on this that I
• 28:01
  read uh, which is um, that
• 28:04
  but due to uh,
• 28:07
  asteroid impacts and the material that they
• 28:09
  eject the top couple of inches
• 28:12
  of lunar soil or the top inch or so
• 28:15
  it's being overturned every
• 28:18
  80,000 years. Uh, and that's
• 28:21
  not that long because we used to think
• 28:24
  that the Apollo astronauts footprints would
• 28:27
  last forever but they won't. They'll
• 28:29
  be recirculated by debris
• 28:32
  that is um, probably pushed up into
• 28:35
  the lunar environment, not the lunar
• 28:37
  atmosphere because there isn't one, but
• 28:38
  debris from collisions.
• 28:40
  And I think the other important thing about
• 28:42
  this story is that that
• 28:45
  debris, of course, and knowing about debris
• 28:48
  like that, it's going to play into how you
• 28:50
  defend um, a moon base. If you've got a
• 28:53
  moon base on the surface of the moon, no
• 28:55
  matter what nationality you're talking about,
• 28:58
  uh, you're going to need the structures to be
• 29:01
  reasonably robust uh to not
• 29:03
  to worry about damage
• 29:06
  from material debris that's been
• 29:10
  kicked uh, up by impacts on the lunar surface
• 29:12
  because those impacts will continue to
• 29:14
  happen. There's no atmosphere to slow them
• 29:16
  down.
• 29:16
  Andrew Dunkley: Now what do they think caused this
• 29:19
  crater?
• 29:21
  Professor Fred Watson: An object? Um, I think it
• 29:24
  was a few metres. I've
• 29:27
  got two separate reports on this and I think
• 29:29
  that's in the other one. I think it is um,
• 29:32
  um, probably a few tens of metres across.
• 29:34
  Professor Fred Watson: Right.
• 29:35
  Professor Fred Watson: Uh, and that's the
• 29:38
  um, you know that that's typical of the
• 29:41
  kind of amount of kinetic energy that will be
• 29:44
  in uh, something that size. Let me see if I
• 29:46
  can find that number. Probably
• 29:49
  can, maybe can.
• 29:52
  Andrew Dunkley: Speaking, speaking of numbers, this, this
• 29:54
  crate is so deep you could put um, three
• 29:57
  school buses end to end.
• 29:59
  Professor Fred Watson: Yes, I saw that. It's got
• 30:02
  to be American school buses.
• 30:04
  Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. And wellness.
• 30:05
  Professor Fred Watson: That's right.
• 30:06
  Andrew Dunkley: And they've got to be yellow.
• 30:08
  Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, I can't find the estimate of
• 30:10
  um, the size of the impactor was, but
• 30:13
  it would be certainly, um, you know,
• 30:16
  something that um, is significant
• 30:19
  enough to uh,
• 30:22
  basically provide that amount of energy, uh,
• 30:25
  to make a hole that big.
• 30:26
  Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. And the other thing is it hits the moon
• 30:29
  harder than it hits Earth because there's
• 30:31
  nothing to slow it down.
• 30:32
  Professor Fred Watson: That's correct.
• 30:34
  Andrew Dunkley: So it's much more explosive on the lunar
• 30:36
  surface than if something like this, uh,
• 30:39
  hit Earth. In fact, if this particular rock
• 30:41
  had hit Earth, it may not have done much at
• 30:44
  all.
• 30:45
  Professor Fred Watson: Well, it probably would have exploded in the
• 30:47
  atmosphere. Yeah, that's the thing, you
• 30:50
  know, like the, um, Chelyabinsk
• 30:52
  event back in 2013, was it that,
• 30:55
  uh, was something 30 metres across that
• 30:58
  exploded in the atmosphere. But if it hit the
• 31:00
  ground on the moon, it might have been made
• 31:02
  quite a big hole. Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry, I
• 31:04
  can't find, um, an estimate of the, um, the
• 31:07
  size of that from, uh, the size
• 31:10
  of the impact crater. But, uh, I'm sure it's
• 31:12
  uh, not that far away to
• 31:15
  discover it.
• 31:16
  Andrew Dunkley: Um, let me see if I can find it.
• 31:19
  Professor Fred Watson: Thank you. Thank you. That'd be very good.
• 31:22
  Andrew Dunkley: That hit the moon
• 31:25
  in 20,
• 31:27
  25, 20, 24. Uh,
• 31:30
  24.
• 31:31
  Professor Fred Watson: Sorry, that's what you read before.
• 31:34
  Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, yeah. Um,
• 31:37
  okay, so, uh, yeah, Magechen
• 31:40
  crater. And
• 31:43
  they're saying the impactor was roughly 20 to
• 31:46
  30 metres across.
• 31:47
  Professor Fred Watson: There you go. So, um, what did I just say? 30
• 31:50
  metres was the, uh, size of the
• 31:52
  Chelyabinsk, uh, impactor. Uh, and this is
• 31:55
  probably similar.
• 31:56
  Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, so a similar kind of rock. So this
• 31:59
  is probably one we didn't see in advance by
• 32:01
  the sound of it.
• 32:02
  Professor Fred Watson: Um, that's correct. Uh, a
• 32:05
  30 metre object seen from the distance
• 32:08
  of Earth will be virtually invisible.
• 32:13
  Bearing in mind that we can't see the, you
• 32:15
  know, the landing, the Apollo
• 32:17
  landing sites with any terrestrial
• 32:19
  telescopes, we can certainly see them from
• 32:21
  Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter and see what's
• 32:23
  left there, but can't see it from a. Yeah,
• 32:26
  okay.
• 32:27
  Andrew Dunkley: Uh, you can read all about it, uh, on the
• 32:30
  NASA website. Uh, it's a
• 32:32
  fantastic site to visit. So much great stuff
• 32:35
  there. Uh, that brings us to
• 32:37
  the end of our show. Fred Watson, thank you
• 32:39
  so much.
• 32:40
  Professor Fred Watson: Oh, it's a pleasure, Andrew. Always good to
• 32:43
  talk about these things, even when they are
• 32:44
  weapons in space.
• 32:45
  Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, yeah, well, we know now, so, um,
• 32:50
  Very good. We'll catch you soon, Fred Watson.
• 32:51
  Thank you. Um, and in the meantime, visit us
• 32:54
  online at spacenutspodcast.com or
• 32:56
  spacenuts IO have a look around, visit the
• 32:59
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• 33:02
  the Ask me anything button at the top, it's
• 33:04
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• 33:09
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• 33:12
  leave reviews wherever you listen to or
• 33:15
  watch us. And thanks to Huw in the studio,
• 33:17
  who couldn't be with us. I've got to go bail
• 33:19
  him out again because he's been throwing
• 33:21
  large rocks at people. And from me, Andrew
• 33:23
  Dunkley, thanks for your company. We'll see
• 33:25
  you on the next episode of Space Nuts. Bye
• 33:28
  bye.
• 33:28
  Space Nuts. You've been listening to the
• 33:31
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• 33:34
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