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Christianity and Marginalized People: Part 5 · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to Stephman.
0:07
Speaker 1: Never told you a protection of iHeart Radio.
0:18
Speaker 2: And welcome back to our It's not I don't think
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Speaker 2: it's a mini series anymore. It's a full long series,
0:24
Speaker 2: isn't it at this point?
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like a mini series. We're at least
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Speaker 1: we're approaching the edge. We're approaching the edge of what
0:34
Speaker 1: a mini series is.
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Speaker 2: Right, because you know, if we just wanted to go
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Speaker 2: straight through all of these which is heavy, indeed, I think, yeah,
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Speaker 2: it would be a season essentially. Yeah, if we had
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Speaker 2: those which we don't believe in. Those we don't believe
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Speaker 2: in them.
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Speaker 1: We're just kind of we're doing what we can with
0:56
Speaker 1: the time we have and our mental health.
0:59
Speaker 2: That's right, That's right. Okay, we'll say it like that.
1:01
Speaker 2: And yes, we are back with the series for Christianity
1:04
Speaker 2: and religious Trauma in the Western Christian World. I guess
1:08
Speaker 2: that's how I'm gonna put it. I keep changing the names.
1:11
Speaker 2: I need to get it together on this.
1:13
Speaker 1: You do, and you know this is a peak behind
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Speaker 1: the curtain. But I generally write the description title, so
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Speaker 1: any errors in there are mine.
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Speaker 2: I'm not helping with all the confusion.
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Speaker 1: But I am often like, okay, wait, what are we
1:30
Speaker 1: calling it now?
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Speaker 2: Until I do. You were trying to say that I
1:35
Speaker 2: came up with good names the other day, I was like, girl, no,
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Speaker 2: I could come up with this concepts. You have to
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Speaker 2: write the names because I can never actually title anything. Yes,
1:44
Speaker 2: that's one of the words. Deep right, team, this is
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Speaker 2: how we this is how we figure it out. But yes,
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Speaker 2: so far, we've talked about women in Western Protestant churches,
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Speaker 2: misogyny within the religious community, purity culture, and sex abuse
1:57
Speaker 2: within Southern Baptist churches. Hey, we're talking about yes, even
2:01
Speaker 2: more trauma, especially related to marriage in domestic violence in
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Speaker 2: the next episode, divorce. But yes, and then we are
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Speaker 2: more specifically talking about the role of a wife and
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Speaker 2: mother and motherhood. So yay, content warning, we are talking
2:17
Speaker 2: about domestic violence, abuse, religious trauma, and childhood trauma as well,
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Speaker 2: because some of this was a little too close to home.
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Speaker 2: Once again, once again, yes, and by the way, I
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Speaker 2: have ruined my Google algorithm and I can't find anything
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Speaker 2: that isn't a Christian blog trying to tell me that
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Speaker 2: I would be a better human if I had babies
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Speaker 2: raised them in a church and supported my husband. It
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Speaker 2: is a generalization, but y'all, those are the articles I'm getting,
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Speaker 2: and they're all blogs or church related affiliated columns telling
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Speaker 2: me these are the steps of being a good woman.
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Speaker 2: I can't get it off my screen and it's really upsetting.
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Speaker 2: I'm really getting annoyed by this. Yes, however, it is
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Speaker 2: offering a lot of columns again that start with how
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Speaker 2: to be a godly woman? Godly comes up quite often. Man,
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Speaker 2: I have been so far away from this world seeing
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Speaker 2: this it makes my heart skip a beat, not in
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Speaker 2: a good way, right, And yes, if I mentioned marriage,
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Speaker 2: it immediately steps into how to be a good mother,
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Speaker 2: like that's the next thing on the list. And usually
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Speaker 2: being married means your next step is to be a mother.
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Speaker 2: So why are you hesitating? Obviously? And yeah, So growing
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Speaker 2: up in this very religious lifestyle as a girl, I
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Speaker 2: had always heard that women, for women, our greatest gifts
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Speaker 2: were to be a wife, to be a mother, and
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Speaker 2: to have a family. My own adoptive family is made
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Speaker 2: up of the traditional working dad and a stay at
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Speaker 2: home mom. I mean she had dinner ready made, sure
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Speaker 2: that the home was perfect. I grew up watching my
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Speaker 2: mother pick lint off the carpet every time she went
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Speaker 2: by me in the living room, and I thought that
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Speaker 2: was normal, like who does and then realizing, oh, my
4:20
Speaker 2: mother's extra special and extra attentive when it comes to
4:27
Speaker 2: it is I my You and I have talked about
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Speaker 2: how in comparison to our mother's, how we feel so sloppy.
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Speaker 2: My mother has it together. Even to this day. She
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Speaker 2: has a little bit of clutter in her storage attic,
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Speaker 2: and she apologizes for that as if it's a mess,
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Speaker 2: like people are going to go sit up there and
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Speaker 2: hang out like that. Yes, I'm like, I wouldn't have
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Speaker 2: known had you not told me what's happening. And yes,
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Speaker 2: my mother was also very event to my father. She
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Speaker 2: wouldn't take his crap and he would never abuse her
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Speaker 2: in such a way, but like obviously she would follow
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Speaker 2: his lead. Even having a serious conversation recently, she would say,
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Speaker 2: you just need to talk to your father. Of course
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Speaker 2: that also has in part that he and I can
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Speaker 2: actually have a conversation as where she gets heated up
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Speaker 2: and we both start crying, So that might be the
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Speaker 2: other reason. But yes, she had dinner ready. She raised
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Speaker 2: four kids, including myself, and then she raised many more
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Speaker 2: foster children. So I've had lots of people in her
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Speaker 2: home and she has been called mom by several several
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Speaker 2: several people who are not her biological children, myself included.
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Speaker 2: And yeah, she made it look doable. Don't get me wrong.
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Speaker 2: I definitely saw her on the edge a couple of
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Speaker 2: times where she would just absolutely lose it and we'd
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Speaker 2: be like, Okay, Mama, mama's mama's go Mom's going out.
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Speaker 2: Mom is going to have it out with us, so
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Speaker 2: we need to go hide because it's it's that time
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Speaker 2: and it's rare. And it was fair that she did,
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Speaker 2: because she was like, she's very patient, but she was
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Speaker 2: ready to blow and things made go flying across the
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Speaker 2: kitchen like we knew things were happening. We needed to run,
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Speaker 2: oh god. Or it was also the tradition that she
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Speaker 2: would finally get fed up with my father and say
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Speaker 2: this is where I learned that term. And my mother
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Speaker 2: never curses, but yeah, she would literally be like yes
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Speaker 2: and then just walk off. One of my favorite phrases
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Speaker 2: still I still love to use it, by the way,
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Speaker 2: a good one it is. And then but watching her
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Speaker 2: going through all this, watching her relationship with her my father,
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Speaker 2: I actually told them. This was not what I wanted.
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Speaker 2: I said that out loud. I remember getting on to
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Speaker 2: my father a few times because my mother would have
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Speaker 2: dinner ready. We never sat at a table. We sat
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Speaker 2: in the living room, watched TV. We had like probably
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Speaker 2: a dinner tray. We were those people. My dad had
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Speaker 2: a random long board that he used as a dinner
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Speaker 2: tray that went across the chair. It was hilarious. Don't ask,
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Speaker 2: but he would use that and would sit in his
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Speaker 2: big chair, comfy chair and eat. But he was always
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Speaker 2: the first person to get up late that my mother
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Speaker 2: would bring to him, and he would if he finished
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Speaker 2: dinner before my mother finished and he wanted seconds, she
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Speaker 2: would immediately stop eating, get up, take his plate, get
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Speaker 2: his second course, and come back and then start finishing
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Speaker 2: her first plate, in which I would get so upset.
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Speaker 2: I would yell at my father, you need to get
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Speaker 2: up yourself and let her eat. I was very upset. Yeah,
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Speaker 2: but this is the type of home that we lived in.
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Speaker 2: My mother loved it. My mother really felt like this
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Speaker 2: was her calling. She will tell you this, this is
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Speaker 2: her calling to be our mother and to be her
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Speaker 2: be his wife. And yeah, this was not my goal.
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Speaker 2: I did not want this. I went to college away
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Speaker 2: from home. I was the first person to actually leave
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Speaker 2: the home to go to college. I did focus on
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Speaker 2: service though, And yeah, I've talked about my experience as
8:01
Speaker 2: a missionary, which I regret. And there's a lot of
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Speaker 2: things that we need to unpack with the colonization and
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Speaker 2: missionary work and and that kind of deceptiveness. But that's
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Speaker 2: a whole different episode that I don't think we're going
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Speaker 2: to talk about this time around in the series. But
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Speaker 2: who knows, who knows? But yeah, and well, of course,
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Speaker 2: in that the focus of the church is to bring
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Speaker 2: more Christians into the world, whether through conversion or through birth.
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Speaker 2: And yeah, it's a gathering of a kingdom. It sounds
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Speaker 2: like a cult, yeah, and they would never call themselves
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Speaker 2: a cult, but that's what the intent. The intention is
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Speaker 2: to convert all of the world to their beliefs, so
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Speaker 2: and their way of life, just say yeah and again.
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Speaker 2: But for my young college days, I did study a lot,
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Speaker 2: and I also worked in ministry. I did the entire thing.
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Speaker 2: I was working every weekend around the Southeast teaching teenage
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Speaker 2: kids biblical stories and ideals. I sang with them. I
9:11
Speaker 2: ran a women's ministry at church at my local church,
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Speaker 2: I went to church faithfully, went to Bible study, I
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Speaker 2: led Bible study in our churches. So yeah, I was very,
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Speaker 2: very very big into this. But as expected in college life, well, okay,
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Speaker 2: I have to backtrack. Not expected, I guess. I definitely
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Speaker 2: fell into the idea. As the Christian college girl. My
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Speaker 2: goal not only was to serve, I was to find
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Speaker 2: a partner a husband. Everything that the Bible told me
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Speaker 2: about this situation is that I need to find my leader,
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Speaker 2: the head of the household, and practice the techniques of
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Speaker 2: finding the perfect mate or mail as we say here,
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Speaker 2: And boy was it exhausting. Boy was it exhausting. Along
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Speaker 2: the lines of purity culture, there was the whole idea
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Speaker 2: of courtship. Oh God, I'm so embarrassed talking about this.
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Speaker 2: I'm so embarrassed. Handy, It's okay, this is a safe space.
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Speaker 2: But yes, I want to do it. Of course, this
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Speaker 2: isn't necessary a thing with all churches. I think a
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Speaker 2: lot of people who are churchgoers and went to church
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Speaker 2: in college, who go to church like not religiously, but
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Speaker 2: will come every Sunday or every other Sunday or that
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Speaker 2: they don't do this and would probably give us a
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Speaker 2: side eye for the ones who did this, but it
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Speaker 2: was something I fell for. It's this weirdly romantic but
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Speaker 2: misogynistic ideal of meeting that godly man. Somehow it was romantic.
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Speaker 2: I think it's that same notion of like churning the
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Speaker 2: bad boy, and you're like, this is not a good
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Speaker 2: situation except for Jesus plus I guess plus Jesus, right,
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Speaker 2: And books like Passion and Purity, I cast Date and
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Speaker 2: Goodbye the Five Languages of Love have a fueled a
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Speaker 2: whole generation of young people into dating Jesus's way or
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Speaker 2: not dating in Jesus's way. Actually, again, I was one
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Speaker 2: of those people. I read all of those books. Actually
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Speaker 2: I did not read The Languages of Love because it
11:35
Speaker 2: came a little later.
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Speaker 1: But I that is the one where we talk about
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Speaker 1: like our love language, right, yeah, joke about it.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, we talk about it, and there's some merit to it.
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Speaker 2: But man, the level that people the level of confidence
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Speaker 2: that people have put in that book, Yeah, it is comical.
11:52
Speaker 2: I will say that it is comical. Yeah, you know.
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Speaker 2: And in all of this, which is why I said
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Speaker 2: I had to backtrack a little bit. I've joke that
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Speaker 2: I lost a lot of my college experiences with all
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Speaker 2: the fear that my beliefs piled onto me. Caroline, former
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Speaker 2: host of the show, she and I had vastly different
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Speaker 2: college experiences even though we went around the same time
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Speaker 2: to the same colleges, Like we never interacted because we
12:18
Speaker 2: were so different right in our social habits. And I
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Speaker 2: feel sad that I kind of missed out on it.
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Speaker 2: I do feel like I've been stunted because of it.
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Speaker 2: And I'm not alone. I'm not alone just watching my
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Speaker 2: peers go through a whole process. I'm going as far
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Speaker 2: in this courtship again my face is turning around and
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Speaker 2: having to ask a permission from the parent of the
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Speaker 2: person that you want to go out with before even
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Speaker 2: going out, Like this is not getting married, We're not
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Speaker 2: asking like this is like, hey, I think I actually
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Speaker 2: want to go on a with them, but it's not
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Speaker 2: actually a date because oftentimes it would be a group
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Speaker 2: hang or something and so, but yeah, they would still
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Speaker 2: go and ask the parents, will I have intentions with
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Speaker 2: your daughter? Oh? And that's it sounds so ridiculous, but yes,
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Speaker 2: that's the level it would get. To imagine it being
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Speaker 2: a mix of wholesome k drama, which now you understand
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Speaker 2: a little more of with the staunch eighteen hundred's idea
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Speaker 2: of propriety. Uh where. At this point, though, the parents
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Speaker 2: are just as confused as the rest of the world,
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Speaker 2: like what is what are y'all doing? Are you getting married? No? No, no,
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Speaker 2: no, no no, we're thinking about being boyfriend and girlfriend m hm,
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Speaker 2: and so the levels like wait, what what is happening?
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Speaker 2: And yeah, there was. It was a novel idea that
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Speaker 2: if we strip down all progress and freedom and love,
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Speaker 2: then we can undo all the sense we were backtracking
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Speaker 2: essentially in culture and dating culture. I should have a
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Speaker 2: therapy session just on this. You should write a book.
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Speaker 2: I should write a book. I don't want to. Yeah,
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Speaker 2: And if you follow the rules and know the rules
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Speaker 2: of books like Passion and Purity, where Elizabeth Elliott teaches
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Speaker 2: how to catch a husband. Now, don't get me wrong,
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Speaker 2: her thing is of a memoir about the fact that
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Speaker 2: she met her perfect husband and how that went down
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Speaker 2: and they went missionaries out in the world and then
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Speaker 2: he dies it's not nice, but you know, and then
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Speaker 2: she gets married I think a couple more times after
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Speaker 2: the fact, but it's the story about how he courted
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Speaker 2: her and the expectations. Here's a quote from a Christian
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Speaker 2: blog as they describe the book. Quote. She strongly cautions
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Speaker 2: against new trends like women initiating relationships, citing how masculinity
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Speaker 2: is rooted in God's character as initiates. This is from
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Speaker 2: the book. He woos us, calls us, wins us, give
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Speaker 2: us his capital h name, shares with us his destiny
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Speaker 2: capital age, takes responsibility for us, loves us with a
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Speaker 2: love stronger than death. She writes of the masculine responsibility
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Speaker 2: to quote care for, protect, provide for, and cherish for women.
15:24
Speaker 2: She encourages qualities like affirmation, tenderness, maternalism, and mystery, a
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Speaker 2: sort of modesty and reserve. So in this blog she
15:35
Speaker 2: is praising and this is new. This is a newer blog.
15:38
Speaker 2: So I'm telling you it revamps every few years. This book.
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Speaker 2: Her estate has to have a lot of money, but
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Speaker 2: she's trying to encourage this old practice once again with
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Speaker 2: this novel idea that this manly man with gentle spirit
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Speaker 2: will come and woo you. I'm not anti Roman, but
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Speaker 2: I do still think we need to lower our expectations
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Speaker 2: where we are setting us up as well as our
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Speaker 2: partners up for failure. Well you know whatever, yeah, okay, okay.
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Speaker 1: Well, for books like I Kissed, Dating Goodbye, the call
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Speaker 1: for Christians to give up dating altogether was revolutionary. Tales
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Speaker 1: of consequences of sin and eternal loneliness for those who
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Speaker 1: took dating lightly was the forefront of many of the
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Speaker 1: messages in these books, the ignoring of human impulse desire
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Speaker 1: and pushing for everyone, especially women, to fight against it,
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Speaker 1: as if it would be the end of the world
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Speaker 1: to succumb to such awful temptations. But it also made
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Speaker 1: sure to add an extra large side of homophobia, as
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Speaker 1: Harris wrote in the book of him finding the fact
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Speaker 1: that he may have been checked out by three gay
16:57
Speaker 1: men really specific a quote disgusting moment. He specifically writes
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Speaker 1: out that it made him respond with quote anger and
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Speaker 1: disgust and that it was quote wrong, so filthy.
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Speaker 2: Right. So we're talking about Joshua Harris, the author of
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Speaker 2: Kiss Stating Goodbye and then Boy Mats Girl, a book
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Speaker 2: about courtship.
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Speaker 1: Yes ah, but since then he has had a change
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Speaker 1: of heart. In fact, he's halted all reprints of the
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Speaker 1: book in twenty eighteen and in Instagram post, he apologized
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Speaker 1: and wrote, I have lived in repentance for the past
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Speaker 1: several years, repenting of my self righteousness, my fear based
17:37
Speaker 1: approach to life, the teaching of my books, my views
17:40
Speaker 1: of women in the church, and my approach to parenting,
17:43
Speaker 1: to name a few. But I specifically want to add
17:46
Speaker 1: to this list now to the LGBTQ plus community. I
17:49
Speaker 1: want to say that I am sorry for the views
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Speaker 1: that I taught my books and as a pastor regarding sexuality.
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Speaker 1: I regret standing against marriage equality, for not affirming your
17:59
Speaker 1: place in the church, and for any ways that my
18:01
Speaker 1: writing and speaking contributed to a culture of exclusion and
18:05
Speaker 1: big A treatment. So that's something. Yeah, yeah, Much like
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Speaker 1: many other millennials have also taken many steps away from
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Speaker 1: their faith, Harris has done the same. But the results
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Speaker 1: of the books like his still remain. And since we've
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Speaker 1: already talked at length about the toxicity of purity culture,
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Speaker 1: will bypass the redundancy of how purity culture ruined everything,
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Speaker 1: including dating. But let's talk about the Christianity and religious
18:35
Speaker 1: trauma and how that has affected marriage, motherhood, and the
18:40
Speaker 1: messy violence.
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Speaker 3: Right.
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Speaker 2: I'm not going to regel you with all the awful
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Speaker 2: courtship conversations that happened in college life. That's a whole
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Speaker 2: like outtake episode that that doesn't need to happen. So yeah,
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Speaker 2: the perfect wife and mother that seems to be the
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Speaker 2: ultimate goal. For years, my mother would let me know,
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Speaker 2: especially during the holidays, that she feared that I would
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Speaker 2: be like many of the women who would never settle
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Speaker 2: down and never have children of their own, and that
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Speaker 2: I would die alone with no children to care for me,
19:27
Speaker 2: in which I responded, I would probably never have children,
19:30
Speaker 2: give it up, I told them about Many times. She
19:35
Speaker 2: would also give me examples of aunts, spinster aunts who
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Speaker 2: did not have children and how unhappy they were, And
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Speaker 2: I was like, I don't think that's true. I think
19:42
Speaker 2: you want to paint it that way. I don't think
19:44
Speaker 2: that's true. But okay, But she wasn't a fan of
19:50
Speaker 2: my take.
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Speaker 4: Here.
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Speaker 2: For a woman whose identity is wrapped up in her
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Speaker 2: husband and children, this seemed like I was a person
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Speaker 2: with no purpose. Again, I would like to reiterate that
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Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong in loving your partner, loving your children,
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Speaker 2: loving your life, and caring for your family and giving
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Speaker 2: things to a higher power for these things, But to
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Speaker 2: do any of these things out of fear or fomo
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Speaker 2: fear of missing out. Yeah cool, then yes, maybe we
20:17
Speaker 2: should re examine the reasons. Children will not fix our mistakes.
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Speaker 2: They won't fill the whole often left by past traumas,
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Speaker 2: will not be the love you've been trying to get
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Speaker 2: from an absent parent. And in my perspective, again, yes,
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Speaker 2: in my perspective, it is wrong to place that type
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Speaker 2: of responsibility onto a child. Just gonna put that out there. Sorry,
20:41
Speaker 2: not sorry, but yes, I digress. Young women in the
20:45
Speaker 2: Church are taught to be ready to serve and support family,
20:48
Speaker 2: especially your husband. As in fact, many articles and Christian
20:52
Speaker 2: advice columns, many of them will even give you an
20:55
Speaker 2: exact list of things to do. And here's a list
20:59
Speaker 2: of them from an article titled twelve Wonderful responsibilities God
21:03
Speaker 2: has given to women. So number one, to love, believe,
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Speaker 2: and respect the Lord. To support the gospel work of
21:12
Speaker 2: the Church. To be diligent in her vocations, so at
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Speaker 2: least she could have a job. To be a wife,
21:18
Speaker 2: to be a mother, to care for her household, to
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Speaker 2: be a helper to her husband, To love and respect
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Speaker 2: her husband, to submit to her husband, to be respectable
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Speaker 2: to learn quietly in church and teach what is.
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Speaker 1: Good interesting, all right, And with that, with that list,
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Speaker 1: we are going to look at ideas closely related to
21:49
Speaker 1: numbers four through nine. So, yes, women are told that
21:54
Speaker 1: we must submit to the authority of men, as they
21:57
Speaker 1: are the head of the household and have been given
21:59
Speaker 1: the ultimate beauty of steering the family on the most
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Speaker 1: godly path. The term servant leader is often used to
22:05
Speaker 1: describe the leadership of men in the household. As one
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Speaker 1: Christian article writes, quote, a woman who submits to the
22:11
Speaker 1: servant leadership of a mature Christian man should be letting
22:15
Speaker 1: herself in for a life where her husband devotes himself
22:18
Speaker 1: to providing for her needs, protecting her, and yes, directing her.
22:22
Speaker 2: At times.
22:23
Speaker 1: A servant leader will not insist on his way in
22:27
Speaker 1: areas where it is not possible to know objectively what
22:30
Speaker 1: God wants. He will call for his wife to follow
22:33
Speaker 1: Christ along with himself, but will graciously allow her to
22:37
Speaker 1: refuse his suggestion often and I will say emphasis mine
22:44
Speaker 1: that I put in there. But yeah, just that kind
22:50
Speaker 1: of idea of graciously, very very very gracious. Indeed, Christian
22:59
Speaker 1: women should understand the level of authority that men have
23:03
Speaker 1: in the household, again under the theory of being a
23:07
Speaker 1: servant leader. So it's kind of yeah, their godly duty
23:09
Speaker 1: to be like, I will do what you do, all right?
23:12
Speaker 4: Cool?
23:13
Speaker 2: Right?
23:14
Speaker 1: And what is the thoughts on post modern ideals, those
23:20
Speaker 1: initiatives that women are taking these days. Here's what the
23:24
Speaker 1: same article I had to say. Our post modern aversion
23:28
Speaker 1: to authority is incompatible with Christianity, not only because it
23:32
Speaker 1: flies in the face of biblical teaching, but because it
23:35
Speaker 1: is based on our fear of corrupt and self serving authority.
23:39
Speaker 2: Figures, yes, yes, yes, interesting to be about self. So
23:44
Speaker 2: in that article they go on to explain that men
23:47
Speaker 2: and women should rely on each other when it comes
23:49
Speaker 2: to making decisions in the household. They say, quote, the
23:53
Speaker 2: wife's submission to the husband within Christian marriage is grounded
23:56
Speaker 2: in both spouse's willingness to defer to each other in love,
24:00
Speaker 2: as well as to other Christian friends in their church.
24:03
Speaker 2: We are all to submit to christ moral leadership whenever
24:06
Speaker 2: it is expressed through others. But if there happens to
24:10
Speaker 2: be a standoff in this protocol, here's the advice. In
24:14
Speaker 2: the rare cases in which husband and wife cannot agree
24:17
Speaker 2: on an important decision, The husband, who has proven himself
24:20
Speaker 2: as a servant leader will usually be able to make
24:24
Speaker 2: a mature decision, so again he is the overall authority.
24:28
Speaker 1: Howesoutly usually can make a mature decision, all right, And
24:34
Speaker 1: of course, as the household girls, a woman must learn
24:38
Speaker 1: to be a wonderful mother. We are not experts, and
24:43
Speaker 1: in fact, not one host on this show has been
24:48
Speaker 1: a mother as a recording of this show as when
24:52
Speaker 1: they were recording, So it's possible there's there's been a
24:56
Speaker 1: lot of hosts of this show. It's possible that one
25:00
Speaker 1: of the hosts I have a child now and only
25:03
Speaker 1: two out of the six are currently married. So yeah,
25:05
Speaker 1: we are not experts when it comes to marriage. Are
25:08
Speaker 1: our motherhood on this show? It isn't hard to see
25:11
Speaker 1: though that as the list we read earlier implied, being
25:15
Speaker 1: a mother is a goal with Christian marriages, and again,
25:21
Speaker 1: choosing to be a mother is amazing and one's own choice.
25:26
Speaker 1: So yeah, please don't think we're saying that there's anything
25:29
Speaker 1: bad about that.
25:31
Speaker 2: Right, There's always been pressure to be a perfect mother.
25:34
Speaker 2: I think that's in just a generalization for all women
25:38
Speaker 2: who are mothers. Being a mother often brings judgment from
25:41
Speaker 2: others and as on, the pressure of being responsible for
25:43
Speaker 2: another living beings terrifying. But in the Christian world, the
25:47
Speaker 2: perfect mother is something that impacts the Christian population. Article
25:50
Speaker 2: upon article all agree that women and mothers are responsible
25:53
Speaker 2: for teaching their child the pathway of Christianity. And because
25:57
Speaker 2: all I'm getting is Christian advice column, here's another list,
26:01
Speaker 2: this time giving us some characteristics of a godly mother.
26:04
Speaker 2: Are you ready? A godly mother cultivates a joyful spirit,
26:08
Speaker 2: keeps up your heart, built up her house, is a
26:12
Speaker 2: disciple maker, cheerfully serves her family, trains her children the
26:16
Speaker 2: way they should go, practices patients in kindness, and lives
26:21
Speaker 2: with christ like selflessness.
26:24
Speaker 1: Yes, which we have talked about before. And I will
26:26
Speaker 1: say as we record this Mother's days coming up, and
26:29
Speaker 1: I was trying to buy my Mother's Day card and
26:31
Speaker 1: a lot of the cards have this kind of rhetoric.
26:37
Speaker 2: Ye forgot it was happening, y'all. We are so timely.
26:40
Speaker 2: I completely didn't even think about this. Oh always on purpose.
26:46
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, And from the same article, quote when a
26:52
Speaker 1: godly mother's work is done humbly and for the Lord
26:55
Speaker 1: God will be made real in the lives of her children.
26:58
Speaker 1: The ungodly world that is drawn by passing phases and
27:01
Speaker 1: outward beauty will never see or understand the immortal beauty
27:05
Speaker 1: of the influence of a godly mother. When mothers partner
27:09
Speaker 1: with God, their children will be fit not only for
27:12
Speaker 1: life in an ungodly world, but also for a future
27:15
Speaker 1: in heaven.
27:17
Speaker 2: Yeah. This is exhausting, this list alone. I'm having flashbags
27:24
Speaker 2: on really just putting on that facade which we've talked
27:26
Speaker 2: about a lot of being the kind, dainty, gentle, soft,
27:31
Speaker 2: perfect woman to show off and be like, yes, look
27:35
Speaker 2: at me, I am a viable woman to be your partner.
27:39
Speaker 2: I will give you babies which I wouldn't, and I
27:41
Speaker 2: will support you like this whole level. Oh God, it's
27:45
Speaker 2: making me sweat. Yeah.
27:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, especially that whole idea which we've talked
27:51
Speaker 1: about before, of like being so selfless that the man
27:58
Speaker 1: in this situation is just automatically before you and that's
28:01
Speaker 1: a good thing.
28:02
Speaker 2: Yeah.
28:03
Speaker 1: But there are a lot of women, and many of
28:06
Speaker 1: whom are Christian, who push that perfect mother narrative to
28:09
Speaker 1: the side. Who do they realize how impractical and unrealistic,
28:14
Speaker 1: that is, and most Christians might even say it is
28:18
Speaker 1: man made, and many have spoken out against the idea.
28:24
Speaker 1: In another Christian article, one woman writes, I used to
28:27
Speaker 1: be a perfect parent. I had strong opinions about the
28:30
Speaker 1: best way to raise a happy, healthy, well mannered child.
28:33
Speaker 1: I vowed that my children would appear well groomed and
28:36
Speaker 1: clean it all times. They would be disciplined by my firm,
28:40
Speaker 1: fair and consistent parenting techniques, and they would always always
28:45
Speaker 1: be well behaved in restaurants. And when they were older,
28:49
Speaker 1: I would instill a sense of self confidence a mutual
28:52
Speaker 1: respect by showing them that I valued their opinions and
28:55
Speaker 1: by treating them as equals. My ideas were so straightforward
28:58
Speaker 1: and simple that I couldn't understand why other parents couldn't
29:02
Speaker 1: be as perfect as I was. Then I had children. Yeah,
29:08
Speaker 1: one of my most earliest memories. And I just want
29:11
Speaker 1: to say at the top here like this was not
29:14
Speaker 1: a super traumatic memory for me, so.
29:16
Speaker 2: I don't want to fight about it.
29:17
Speaker 1: But I did say I did say damn it in
29:21
Speaker 1: a church when I was four years old, and my
29:25
Speaker 1: parents that is the only time I've been spanked.
29:28
Speaker 2: Wow, they were oh, no, girl, yeah. It took me
29:33
Speaker 2: until adulthood after college for me to say damn.
29:38
Speaker 1: It was a huge deal.
29:39
Speaker 2: I couldn't did not say God until I was out
29:42
Speaker 2: of college as well, because that was just bad as
29:44
Speaker 2: saying across word.
29:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, definitely I had friends like that, and you know,
29:50
Speaker 1: like I would love to one day future episode to
29:53
Speaker 1: talk about what is going on with our I know
29:57
Speaker 1: it confuses you, but with like our bleeping rule, but
30:01
Speaker 1: the fact is, like what I just said is going
30:04
Speaker 1: to be bleeped part of it for yes, whereas damn
30:07
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be. Yeah, so it's like infiltrated, all right.
30:17
Speaker 1: Moving on. In her article, writer Debbie Farmer talks of
30:20
Speaker 1: her struggle in compromising with her children just to have peace,
30:24
Speaker 1: whether it's by giving in and allowing them to watch
30:27
Speaker 1: cartoons on the phone while she's grocery shopping, or letting
30:30
Speaker 1: them have an unhealthy snack every once in a while,
30:33
Speaker 1: and wondering what the people around her think and whether
30:37
Speaker 1: they are judging her for not being the perfect mother.
30:40
Speaker 1: But she ends the article with this, now, when I
30:44
Speaker 1: see a mother whose child is happily meandering behind her,
30:47
Speaker 1: eating a twinkie and wearing wrinkled dinosaur pajamas and a
30:50
Speaker 1: pair of swim fins. I no longer think she's an
30:52
Speaker 1: unfit parent. I know she's just doing the best she can. Yeah.
30:57
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean there's definitely a whole conversation about trying
31:03
Speaker 2: and disciplining children and all of that. But yeah, in
31:07
Speaker 2: the end, you're just trying to survive, I think, and
31:10
Speaker 2: that's commendable, yes and yeah. And then add to all
31:15
Speaker 2: of these expectations the different types of parenting, whether it's
31:19
Speaker 2: the crunchy moms, the gentle parenting, which is huge on
31:22
Speaker 2: TikTok right now. There are a lot of opinions and
31:24
Speaker 2: debates solely on these ideas. So what happens when you
31:28
Speaker 2: add Christianity to the mix of it all. I grew
31:31
Speaker 2: up in a fairly strict home. Spanking was common, Belts
31:36
Speaker 2: were used in similar tactics. I did have marks all
31:39
Speaker 2: over me at times, and all with the idea that
31:42
Speaker 2: the quote this hurts me more than it hurts you,
31:45
Speaker 2: which is an outright lie. It's a lie. Children, if
31:49
Speaker 2: you listen to this, that's a lie. Please note these
31:53
Speaker 2: were different times, and I'm not excusing anything, but the
31:56
Speaker 2: environment and cultural experience does play into this disciplinary styles
32:02
Speaker 2: if you think about the boomer level. I know, there's
32:04
Speaker 2: a whole conversation on TikTok about how it's different when
32:07
Speaker 2: you were raised under different generations. My generations did have this.
32:13
Speaker 2: I think it was getting less and less, but this
32:16
Speaker 2: happened in many children in my community experienced similar childhood discipline.
32:20
Speaker 2: Like we all probably had moments of like having marks
32:23
Speaker 2: on us or something traumatic happened. I'm even old enough
32:27
Speaker 2: to remember children being paddled by teachers in the school,
32:30
Speaker 2: so that was a whole thing as well. And a
32:34
Speaker 2: lot of this came from the Christian adage spare the rod,
32:37
Speaker 2: spoil the child. And unfortunately, if you really want to
32:41
Speaker 2: talk about it, this just take it out of context
32:43
Speaker 2: and was made literal because this was supposed to be
32:46
Speaker 2: about like shepherds leading with the rod, which they don't
32:48
Speaker 2: beat their sheep with rod, but you know whatever, whatever,
32:52
Speaker 2: that's a whole conversation. And yeah, one form of this
32:57
Speaker 2: very idea that includes this is Christian fundamentalism. Writer Rebecca
33:01
Speaker 2: Drumsta talks about this on her site and her own experiences.
33:06
Speaker 2: She explains, quote, parenting inside a Christian fundamentalist system usually
33:10
Speaker 2: comes with a formula of some sort based on what
33:14
Speaker 2: they have been told is biblical parenting by a fundamentalists
33:18
Speaker 2: pastor organization or ministry leader. And are in support of
33:22
Speaker 2: breaking your child's will as soon as possible, but that's
33:26
Speaker 2: masked as obedience, submission, and conforming to what is expected
33:29
Speaker 2: by the authority.
33:31
Speaker 1: Yes, and she goes on explaining spanking is traditionally the
33:34
Speaker 1: preferred method of discipline. Obedience to parents is pre eminent.
33:38
Speaker 1: Children have no voice or autonomy. Often even after they
33:42
Speaker 1: are of legal age or married, they must still defer
33:45
Speaker 1: to the parent. Sex is rarely discussed. Generally no education
33:49
Speaker 1: given on the subject, and the very word spelled out
33:52
Speaker 1: but not spoken is seen as taboo, except in the
33:55
Speaker 1: occasional gender exclusive settings such as a women's only session
33:59
Speaker 1: at a mayorae conference. And Fundamentalism often includes the following elements.
34:05
Speaker 1: Authoritarian control, no outside influences, and obedience to your parents
34:09
Speaker 1: and church without question. Fear motivating based on fear God
34:14
Speaker 1: is always watching, Shame, feeling shame for falling short, lack
34:19
Speaker 1: of emotional education, can't trust your own emotions or being
34:23
Speaker 1: told to always control your emotions like think of young
34:27
Speaker 1: boys being told they can't cry, no mental health support,
34:31
Speaker 1: just pray about it.
34:32
Speaker 2: Parental perfection.
34:34
Speaker 1: Never show your flalls, you need to fake it and
34:37
Speaker 1: abuse drumsta rights. Parents inside of fundamentalism are conditioned to
34:43
Speaker 1: believe you must protect the name of God, the church,
34:46
Speaker 1: and those in leadership. This carries into not reporting to
34:49
Speaker 1: the authorities or properly handling abuse situations with their own
34:53
Speaker 1: children or members of their community, but instead dealing with
34:56
Speaker 1: things internally by shipping the person to a new chane church,
35:00
Speaker 1: sending them to an approved biblical counseling program, or simply
35:04
Speaker 1: having a stern talk with the accused. It also enables
35:08
Speaker 1: abusers to continue harming their wives, children, congregants, and yes,
35:13
Speaker 1: even their husbands and grandchildren. This mindset has damaged countless
35:17
Speaker 1: individuals and caused compound trauma as victims are shamed, not believed,
35:22
Speaker 1: and even further victimized by those who are in posisions
35:25
Speaker 1: of leadership or authority. Spiritual abuse is rampant in fundamentalist circles,
35:29
Speaker 1: as is sexual, physical, and psychological abuse.
35:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's another conversation we could have
35:35
Speaker 2: that I'm not gonna get too deep into, because, like
35:38
Speaker 2: I said, people who have grown up in fairly strict
35:42
Speaker 2: church background homes. Understand what this is. You have examples
35:48
Speaker 2: of it. We talked previously about the abuses within churches,
35:50
Speaker 2: such as sexual abuse that is often ignored or just
35:53
Speaker 2: talked over and hidden. So we're not gonna too deep
35:58
Speaker 2: on that, but let's talk about what happens when things
36:01
Speaker 2: like domestic abuse happens. And according to one report in
36:04
Speaker 2: the Baptistnews dot Com, the church has been a hunting
36:07
Speaker 2: ground for domestic abusers. In the article, Janice Garrison Morrison,
36:13
Speaker 2: I hope that's right, writes quote, domestic abusers have admitted
36:17
Speaker 2: that the church is the best place to find a gullible, timid,
36:20
Speaker 2: complacent wife. Abusers know all they have to do is
36:23
Speaker 2: fake an interest in spirituality, say the right things, and
36:26
Speaker 2: get involved. At church, young women are taught to value
36:29
Speaker 2: strong male leadership and to watch for men who are
36:32
Speaker 2: committed to God. Then, due to the encouragement of short engagements,
36:36
Speaker 2: these girls are married long before they realized it was
36:39
Speaker 2: all a ruse, only to be told is too late
36:42
Speaker 2: and marriage is forever now. In her article, again it's
36:46
Speaker 2: from Baptistnews dot Com, she often phrases the idea that
36:50
Speaker 2: abusers infiltrate more so than the fact that they are
36:53
Speaker 2: already part of that community or that they're raised within
36:55
Speaker 2: the churches and within those communities. So I think that's
36:58
Speaker 2: something to be said as if they're talking about lurking
37:02
Speaker 2: monsters seeking to pounce on victims, and so that oftentimes,
37:06
Speaker 2: instead of addressing the actual issues and rectified in the situation,
37:10
Speaker 2: we see deflections kind of like this and outright denial.
37:14
Speaker 2: But again, she's not wrong. Abusers have an amazing sense
37:18
Speaker 2: of finding victims. We know this, but they may have
37:21
Speaker 2: already been there.
37:23
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah.
37:37
Speaker 1: And as we were researching this, we found a lot
37:40
Speaker 1: of articles about churches and their leadership telling victims to
37:44
Speaker 1: not talk about their abuse and oftentimes told to go
37:48
Speaker 1: back to their abusive situations. In an article found on
37:52
Speaker 1: the Criminal Justice Research Net, they write, quote holy hush
37:56
Speaker 1: pervades many religious settings when it comes to the topic
37:59
Speaker 1: of domestic violence. Even finding the right words to describe
38:03
Speaker 1: what has happened in a violent outburst between a husband
38:05
Speaker 1: and a wife can be contentious. Given the sociopolitical landscape
38:11
Speaker 1: regarding the issue of abuse in the family context, perhaps
38:14
Speaker 1: it is not too surprising that naming the issue becomes
38:17
Speaker 1: a political act. By and large, clergy and other religious
38:21
Speaker 1: leaders prefer the term family violence, downplaying the gender power
38:25
Speaker 1: and balance. Moreover, many religious leaders are reluctant to condemn
38:30
Speaker 1: wife abuse from the pulpit and confuse reconciliation between a
38:34
Speaker 1: victimized woman and her abusive partner as evidence of recovery,
38:39
Speaker 1: believing that since the violence has stopped, often only temporarily,
38:42
Speaker 1: the home is now a safe place for each family member.
38:46
Speaker 2: Right and actually, there was a Charleston newspaper called The
38:49
Speaker 2: Post and Courier which received a Pulitzer for their three
38:53
Speaker 2: part series on domestic violence in South Carolina, and a
38:57
Speaker 2: pinpointed the Christian culture as one of the rules of
39:00
Speaker 2: domestic violence. They are. Here's a quote from that article.
39:03
Speaker 2: Part of the problem is rooted in the culture of
39:05
Speaker 2: South Carolina, where men have long dominated the halls of power,
39:09
Speaker 2: setting an agenda that clings to tradition and conservative Christian
39:12
Speaker 2: tenets about the subservient role of women. This has bread
39:16
Speaker 2: a tolerance of domestic violence that has passed through so
39:18
Speaker 2: many generations behind so many closed doors that today I
39:22
Speaker 2: think it was like twenty eighteen, South Carolina ranks number
39:25
Speaker 2: one nationwide in the rate of men killing women.
39:28
Speaker 1: And in that same article they write about the church's
39:30
Speaker 1: response when it comes to domestic violence.
39:32
Speaker 2: Quote.
39:33
Speaker 1: They also talked with clergy to challenge age old beliefs
39:36
Speaker 1: that domestic unrest was best resulted in the home and
39:39
Speaker 1: approach that many times made the situation worse. The ministers
39:42
Speaker 1: told us, quote, it's really a family issue. They need
39:45
Speaker 1: to work it out. And that's a quote from Crenshaw,
39:47
Speaker 1: a local worker in a domestic violence center in this article,
39:51
Speaker 1: quote continues, but in some cases that's like telling a
39:54
Speaker 1: victim to go running back into a burning house. What
39:57
Speaker 1: pastors communicate to their flocks also can fuel the problem
40:01
Speaker 1: if inadvertently scripture says women are to be submissive. Suffering
40:06
Speaker 1: is part of life, as Jesus suffered for your sins
40:09
Speaker 1: on the path of salvation. Divorce bus a sin and
40:14
Speaker 1: it goes on the Reverend Mark Bagwell of Golden Corner,
40:18
Speaker 1: a contemporary Baptist church in a Cooney's small town of Valhalla,
40:22
Speaker 1: concedes that religious vows and teachings have likely kept a
40:25
Speaker 1: good number of women from leaving their abusers. Churches have
40:28
Speaker 1: played a major role in making women feel that quote
40:31
Speaker 1: God would be disappointed in them if they left their husband.
40:35
Speaker 2: He says, yeah. In that article, it really was very,
40:39
Speaker 2: very interesting, So if you have time to go look
40:41
Speaker 2: it up, you should. There have been a lot of
40:42
Speaker 2: counterpoise from church affiliates and they were not happy. Just
40:48
Speaker 2: that's actually how I found it. Was again because all
40:50
Speaker 2: my algorithm is given the church's point of view, but
40:54
Speaker 2: I nically found it anyway. But there's so many more
41:02
Speaker 2: stories similar to this, whether it was women who need
41:05
Speaker 2: to obey their husbands so they aren't hit, or that
41:07
Speaker 2: it is a family matter, and yeah, I've witnessed this
41:11
Speaker 2: so many times just growing up in charges like this,
41:14
Speaker 2: even family telling their children to go back to their husband,
41:17
Speaker 2: their own daughter and after he the abuse, are actually
41:21
Speaker 2: admitted to having hit them, and because they were apologetic,
41:25
Speaker 2: they're like, Okay, yeah, you should go back. And in
41:28
Speaker 2: this blog Confusion to Clarity, one counselor asked survivors, quote,
41:32
Speaker 2: what was the worst advice you were given when trying
41:35
Speaker 2: to get help to deal with your abusive marriage? And y'all, yeah,
41:39
Speaker 2: this is not cute, so sorry. Here are some of
41:42
Speaker 2: the responses. God did warn you about him before you
41:45
Speaker 2: married him. Just don't pay attention. Then there's show him
41:48
Speaker 2: more respect. Watch your tone you speak to him. If
41:51
Speaker 2: you speak more respectfully to him, he'll respond in a
41:53
Speaker 2: positive way. And here's another quote from a woman. She said,
41:56
Speaker 2: I contacted the police due to him being physically violent
41:59
Speaker 2: towards me, and my pastor's response was Christians do not
42:03
Speaker 2: call the police on one another. I suggest you apologize
42:06
Speaker 2: to your wrongdoing towards your husband.
42:09
Speaker 1: Ooh, and there's more. My pastor told me he didn't
42:13
Speaker 1: think what I was telling him was true and said
42:16
Speaker 1: women in menopause sometimes have breaks from what's real and
42:19
Speaker 1: what's not. I will not sit here and listen to
42:23
Speaker 1: you shame your husband. Another woman said I was told
42:27
Speaker 1: that saying my spouse was abusive and unfaithful was sin.
42:32
Speaker 1: You need to take him back because he is sorry.
42:35
Speaker 1: You need to return to him and be a submissive wife,
42:38
Speaker 1: and you might save him. My pastor said, if I
42:42
Speaker 1: had a wife like you, I'd hit you myself. They
42:45
Speaker 1: said I needed to stay and hope and pray that
42:48
Speaker 1: I couldn't quote give up because God wanted me to
42:50
Speaker 1: be faithful and patient and persevering.
42:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, and again, article on article on article, they had
42:59
Speaker 2: these phrases, and I have seen that being said. I
43:02
Speaker 2: have heard women and victims saying it to themselves, not
43:06
Speaker 2: having any support, being told that this is their fault.
43:09
Speaker 2: I made them angry, but they put God on it,
43:12
Speaker 2: you know, they put Jesus on it on this one. Again.
43:14
Speaker 2: The message often comes back to women, submit to your
43:17
Speaker 2: husband and the evils of divorce, which we'll talk about
43:21
Speaker 2: in the next episode, because yeah, this was very long.
43:23
Speaker 2: In an article written for The Conversation, they actually talk
43:26
Speaker 2: about a study completed in England, and it says, in
43:29
Speaker 2: a survey of churchgoers in Cumbria, England, one in four
43:33
Speaker 2: respondents had experienced at least one of the nominated abusive
43:36
Speaker 2: behaviors such as being kicked, punched, threatened with a weapon,
43:40
Speaker 2: isolated or sexually coerced in their current relationships, and more
43:45
Speaker 2: than forty percent of the respondents had experienced at least
43:47
Speaker 2: one in a current or previous relationship. The research noted
43:51
Speaker 2: if evangelical churches were reluctant to participate in the survey,
43:55
Speaker 2: perhaps indicating and this is their quote, the reluctance of
43:59
Speaker 2: these churches to a dress domestic violence in their own communities.
44:03
Speaker 1: M and The response, though there are many who are
44:08
Speaker 1: trying to better their churches, is often lacking, as shown
44:14
Speaker 1: in the examples above. Victim blaming a lot of shaming.
44:17
Speaker 1: Women are told to help their husbands to overcome their sins,
44:21
Speaker 1: or that they are doing something to make men sin.
44:25
Speaker 1: Some do offer counseling, but oftentimes are lineent to men
44:29
Speaker 1: who quote pent for their sins and advise wives to
44:33
Speaker 1: go back to their husbands and family. And when it
44:36
Speaker 1: comes to emotional abuse, it's even worse. More often than not,
44:40
Speaker 1: the idea of emotional abuse is dismissed completely as a
44:44
Speaker 1: non existent problem and with no physical evidence, leaving a
44:48
Speaker 1: woman trapped as blogger Amy Wildman, White Rights and less.
44:52
Speaker 1: Pastors and counselors can recognize that often subtle and always
44:56
Speaker 1: complex dynamics of emotional abuse. Women will contin They need
45:00
Speaker 1: to be victimized, first by their husbands and then by
45:03
Speaker 1: the church or the community. And abuse of man who
45:06
Speaker 1: is not held accountable is indirectly supported and given license
45:10
Speaker 1: to continue his destructive patterns, and those around him become enablers.
45:14
Speaker 1: Women are not treated with dignity and respect as God intended,
45:18
Speaker 1: and so God is not honored.
45:20
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, and churches all over the world are getting
45:23
Speaker 2: called out for their neglectful behavior and lack of advocacy
45:27
Speaker 2: for women in those churches. Many churches are trying to
45:30
Speaker 2: step up to assist, often with the idea that such
45:34
Speaker 2: bad behavior does not exist in their own churches. So
45:38
Speaker 2: it's an outward thing. Think of missionaries, just those poor
45:42
Speaker 2: people that they are supposed to save. And if they
45:45
Speaker 2: were to admit that there is an issue in the
45:47
Speaker 2: church that crushes the idea that their church is a
45:50
Speaker 2: godly ordained group of people, they can't admit that. And
45:54
Speaker 2: going a step further admitting that marriage has failed, which
45:59
Speaker 2: this is the phrase what God hath joined together, let
46:02
Speaker 2: no man put as under. That's in mark and is
46:05
Speaker 2: a moral failing and a sin many can't forgive. This
46:09
Speaker 2: is the biggest sin I saw it growing up. Divorced
46:13
Speaker 2: was even worse than someone being hit or raped. And
46:18
Speaker 2: but that's again the topic for the next episode. It's
46:22
Speaker 2: not pretty, It's never pretty. But yeah, there's a lot
46:26
Speaker 2: happening in this conversation. There's a lot of call outs,
46:30
Speaker 2: but a little solution, it.
46:31
Speaker 3: Seems, yeah, and I means as this mini series slash
46:38
Speaker 3: series is proving there's just so much to unpack here
46:41
Speaker 3: with when you have such a tight morality from such
46:44
Speaker 3: a young age of like, well this is what makes
46:46
Speaker 3: me good, right.
46:48
Speaker 1: And I could literally go to hell exapt. Yeah, it's
46:52
Speaker 1: a lot, it's a lot to unpack, and we're continuing to.
46:55
Speaker 5: Do so, but surely slowly, let's go with it is
47:01
Speaker 5: it is, And we've really appreciated hearing from you listeners
47:05
Speaker 5: about this one and your thoughts about this, So.
47:08
Speaker 1: Keep that, keep that up. You can email us at
47:11
Speaker 1: Stephanie mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find
47:14
Speaker 1: us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast, or on Instagram
47:17
Speaker 1: and TikTok at stuff One Never Told You. We're also
47:19
Speaker 1: on YouTube. We have a book that you can pre
47:22
Speaker 1: order at stuff you Should Read Books dot com. Thanks
47:25
Speaker 1: as always to our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya,
47:28
Speaker 1: and our contributor Joey. Y'all are the best you are
47:32
Speaker 1: and thanks to you for listening. Stuff I Ever Told
47:34
Speaker 1: Me is production of iHeartRadio. For more podcast on my
47:36
Speaker 1: heart Radio, you can check out the heart Radio app,
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Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.