Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Twins, 19, Miss Flight To Boston, Found Dead On Georgia Mountain

Transcript

Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Twins, 19, Miss Flight To Boston, Found Dead On Georgia Mountain · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Quality dams, but Joseph's gotten more. I still have a
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: memory from when I was a child of going to
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: the grocery store with my grandmother and we did that
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: every week essentially, and I was their travel buddy. But
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: the reason this memory stands out it was the first time,
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: and I was probably about maybe four, maybe five, it
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: was the first time I'd ever seen a set of twins.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: And it was shocking, you know, when you're that age,
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: because you see duplicates. It's you know, as the young mind,
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: I don't think can really wrap their their perception around
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: that very well, and it was shocking. I remember asking
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: my grandmother about that, and you know, she didn't have
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: any definitive answers, and I do remember her saying, well,
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: we don't have any twins in our family. Got a
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: bunch of redheads, but no twins. As I've gotten older,
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: I've made friends with twins over the years, and as
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: a matter of fact, my wife's best friend she has
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: identical twins. But I want to talk about a set
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: of twins today. A set of twins that had a
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: trip planned to Boston back in March, and they were
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: to be at the Atlanta Airport and they didn't show up.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: They didn't show up and were not found until someone
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: came across them ninety miles away from their home in
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: one of the most isolated locations in the state of Georgia,
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: on top of a mountain. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: this is Bodybacks Dave. We're going to talk today about
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: this very unusual case.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: Joe, you said that right, nineteen year old twin brothers,
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: Kadir Lewis and Zir Lewis are found dead at the
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: summit of Bell Mountain, and the GBI says it was
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: a murder suicide. But you said this area is remote, right.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: The area where these two young men were found was
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: in a location in Towns County, Georgia, and that's one
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: of the least populated counties in the state of Georgia.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: But I lived in this area over in a town
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: called Dalonago. Some of you guys might be familiar with it.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: I taught college up there for years and years. A
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: lot of Hallmark movies are made up there. And to
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: get to Bell Mountain in Towns County, Georgia, it gives
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: quite the reward when you get there because it's got
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: a three hundred and sixty degree view of the Appalachian Mountains.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: And one of the most striking things is that you
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: look down from the precipice of this mountain at almost
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: thirty three hundred feet down onto Lake Hyawassee, which actually,
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: to give you some idea geographically where it is. Part
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: of it is in North Georgia. The other part of
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: it is in North Carolina, so that gives you not
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: you can see over into North Carolina from there pretty easily,
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: and it is just you stand up there and you
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: you know, it's one of those moments where you behold
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: God's creation. It's absolutely gorgeous. But the fact that these
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: two young men were found up there is amazing and
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: obviously quite tragic.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: You know, you started off by talking about twins, and
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: I have to tell you that I have twin brothers.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: My little brothers are twins identical, and yeah, they have
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: their own language. The first time I ever got freaked
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: out was my parents. I'm six years older than my
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: twin brothers, and my parents had gone out and I
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: was there with them. I'm probably they were probably five, Okay,
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: so I'm eleven twelve years old, and it was they
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: should have been to sleep, right, and I hear him talking.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: I can't make out what they're saying, but I can
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: hear them, and I'm responsible. I'm going to be one
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: in trouble if they're awake when mom and Dad get home.
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: So I go up there to chew them out, and
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: I try to hear what they're saying, right, can't understand it.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: It's gibberish, And so I creep up and I open
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: the door and one of them is sitting that bet
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: you know, little the single bed, Yeah, sitting right there
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: in the same but anyway, one is sitting up in
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: the bed and he's just gibberish, gibberish, gibbish, and then
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: he slits back down on his pillow, and the other
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: one pops up and he starts talking gibberish, and then
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: he falls back down. The other one gets it. This
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: went on for minutes to the point where I'm like,
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: do I wake them up? I mean, I always heard
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: you don't wake up people that are talking in their sleep,
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: but this is freaking me out, man. So I actually
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: I did what any eleven twelve year old will do.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: I found a ball and threw it at them. That way,
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: I wasn't waking them up. The ball was. But I
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: thought they were best buddy even at an early age.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: I was thinking like a lawyer at any rate. But
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: twins running my family, the twins all over the place, actually,
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: But to go past this, because I've seen twins in
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: action and how they do interact with one another. My
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: favorite nieces are twins, and they have a different way
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: of looking at life, of looking at the relationships, and
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: it's deeper. Their kinship is just deeper. And anyway, when
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: I saw this story and the first word from the GBI,
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: they suspected murder suicide. And I've got a question for
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: you about that. But I want to fill the story
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: in first. Okay, it doesn't start at Bell Mountain, which,
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: by the way, you can park at the bottom of
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: Bell Mountain and in the parking lot there and you
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: can walk to the summit. Takes about ten minutes. Is
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: a half mile. Now, granted, it's steep and you are
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: going to be breathing heavy if you're fatten out of shape,
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: but it's it's not a tremendous walk through the woods.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: It's paved, Okay, it's made. It's made to get to
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: God's creation. And see it without dying on your way.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Now this started off. You mentioned a plane flight
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: to Boston, and the guys called. They had a seven
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: am flight to head out of Hartsfield in Atlanta. Your
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: favorite place, Joe, and a place where I missed a
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: flight recently, and for the same reason.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: Hang on, let me get it in a plug for
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: Heartsville real quick. As a matter of fact, they all saying,
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: is they all say, is that if you if you're
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: going to Hell, you literally have to change planes at
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: Hartsfield Atlanta Airport. So yeah, it's it's that kind of place.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: I've been in every airport, every Asia, airport, in America,
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: and by far, how can I be kind, it's the
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: most challenging there, I put it to you that way.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: There we go.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: Well, the twins had a seven am flight to go
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: to Boston to visit with friends. They had their tickets,
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: they called an uber. Now they live in Lawrenceville, Georgia,
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: and they were going to Hartsfield, which means they should
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: have been up and on their way by four am
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: to catch a seven am flight. They didn't make it
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: in time for their flight. Now here's the catch. We
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: don't know what happened after that, right, maybe not as
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: luck would have it. We know that the guys missed
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: their flight, but now we know that that Friday they
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: ended up back in Lawrenceville because at ten thirty Friday night,
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: they were seen on surveillance video at a gas station
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: nine minutes from their home, a place where they go
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: and they grab snacks and drink water.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: By the way.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: It's interesting to know that both of these guys are
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: known as cheap skates. They do not like to waste
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: money on gas, They don't like to waste money on anything.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: And so these twins, these nineteen year old twins, are
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: at this gas station convenience store at ten thirty and
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: they're drinking water because it's free, and eating snacks. There
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: is no sign of distress whatsoever. They're dressed like they
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: normally dress, and they're just hanging out. Two twin brothers
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: nineteen years old. Boom. Now, that was at ten thirty
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: that night. Twelve hours later, at eleven am, their bodies
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: are found at the summit of Bell Mountain, ninety miles
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: away from Lawrenceville, Georgia. Neither one of these twins is
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: a hiker, neither one has been to Bell Mountain, and
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: it's not a place you would drive at night to
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: get to the roads there, and I look these up.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: They're not easy to find during the daytime. And this
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: is a place where you need to be familiar with
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: where you're going and have a real reason and purpose
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: for being there. Since they planned on being in Boston
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: with friends at the time they were found on Bell Mountain,
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: that's where the confusion comes in for their family. So
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: we do know that after missing their plane flight, they
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: did make it back to Lawrenceville. They were unfamiliar territory.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: They were at the gas station at ten thirty that night.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: What happened between the time they left the gas at
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: and twelve and a half hours later when nine to
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: one one got called with two bodies at the summit
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: of Bell Mountain? And how Joe can they come up
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: with a murder suicide?
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: So and you know right now still to this point.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Now keep in mind this was back in March when
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: this occurred, and this story did not hit my desk
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: at all. It did not come across my feet. You
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: have a much more broad spectrum view of things than
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: I do. Because of all the stories you're chasing all
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: the time. But for me personally, I did not. I
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: did not see it to my discredit, because this is
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: something that I found very interesting in the sense that well,
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: first off, just the nature of it that you've got
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: two city kids that live in Lawrenceville. And if folks
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: don't know where Lawrenceville is, it's on the northeastern side
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: of Atlanta.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: And first actually in Lawrenceville.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, well you know this. It's right off of
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: E eighty five, which goes northeast. You can get to Greenville,
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: South Carolina and get to be on If any of.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: You watch the TV show on Netflix, Stranger Things, they
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: film all the mall scenes that you see in that
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: movie or that TV show because it's based in the eighties,
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: so mall is a center part of that thing. They
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: filmed the mall and most of the indoor scenes in Lawrenceville.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: In Lawrenceville at Gwennap Place mall, well, it used to
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: be Glenned Place Mall. Just up I eighty five.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I got one more for you. Lakely is right
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: by there, and your favorite show of all time. I'll
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: go and tell everybody Ozark, which is supposed to be
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: taking place in Arkansas, Missouri, that area is actually filmed
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: there in Georgia on Lake Lanier. This area there, it's
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: not a place where let's see, how can I say
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: you have to have a bit of money in certain
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: areas up there, because it is one of the fastest
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: growing For a long time, it was the fastest growing
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: zip code in America. It's densely, densely populated, and this
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: is the environment that these kids lived in. And like
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: you said, I was watching an interview with the family,
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: and the family pointedly says, we've never even heard of
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: Towns County, much less Bell Mountain, and we've never been there.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: The twins have never been there. And oh, by the way,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: there's no indication that they were suicide on any level whatsoever.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: So they've had more questions than answers. But as we
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: all know, particularly when it comes to the cases we
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: cover on body bags, that's kind of the norm, is it, So, Dave,
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: my understanding is is that this park, the hours are
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: essentially from eight am until dusk, and of course dusk
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: is going to be variable, but you know, March eighth
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: of this year, that's still well within the parameters of wintertime.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, you say, yeah, it's going dark much earlier
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: than later, you know, like the time of year that
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: we're in right now, in the spring, late spring, and
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: so it's a different ball of wax. So the question
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: is whoever locked that gate, because I think the gate
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: was in fact locked and didn't see the car parked
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: in there. Did they drive in there and inspect the area?
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: And how far is the gate from the parking lot?
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, we've talked about how far a walk it is,
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: and this is more like a leisurely walked than it
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: is a hike, you know, and it's not a big area.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: When the family there was a family, I think it's
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: the Bell family donated this land. This whole thing's only
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: eighteen acres and it's like the top of the mountain
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: and they donated this thing, and the state of Georgia
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: set up a state park there, I think back in
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. It's not an old one and there are
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: a lot of old ones up there, you know. You
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: think about that and did anybody roll around through there?
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: And the police have also said, and here's one major
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: problem with this, there's no video there. There's no CCTV,
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: so you can't account for somebody coming and going in there.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: You're not going to be able to clip that out.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: You know, we've got video. I think you had mentioned
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: we've got video of them back in Gwinette County, Lawrenceville
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: have I before, Yeah, having been at the store. So
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: how does that balance out in the mind? And I
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: guess one of the big questions is how are they found?
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: Well, Okay, look, Joe, here's the part that I think.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: I don't know how the GBI could come up with
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: an answer to how they were found and say it
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: was a murder suicide to family members. I don't know
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: how they can. I'm not challenging that they're the professionals,
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: not me. I just would think you'd have to have
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: more results in that, like the autopsy report should include
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: all everything. You know, when before you come up and
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: tell a family member that they're twins, nineteen year old
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: twins have committed murder suicide before you tell them that,
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: you ought to have every other answer solved. I know
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: they want answers, but the family is just no, they're
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: not going to believe that. Families don't believe it when
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: you tell them that they found their child with a
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: bullet in the head, that they committed suicide. People don't
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: want to believe that about people they love. We just
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: don't want to believe that. So they told them it
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: was a murder of suicide. But Joe, there's something even
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: worse than anything on this that I've seen so far.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: And I actually saw this in the New York Post
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: and I thought, oh, they've missed on They run headlines
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: all the time that are wrong. But there is a
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: story that a volunteer fireman from Towns County, And by
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: the way, Towns County Sheriff's Department invited in the GBI
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: from the very beginning, the minute this case came in,
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: they called him in and said, we don't have and
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: you mentioned the size of the county and number of
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: the population. They said, we don't have. We do not
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: have what's needed to do this case justice. So they
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: called in the GBI to be the investigation of record.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: So one of the people on scene was a volunteer firefighter,
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: a volunteer first responder for Towns County. And this person,
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: Joe allegedly, well no not allegedly, took pictures of these
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: two young men, nineteen year old twins, took pictures of
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: their dead bodies, Kadir and Nazir Lewis. He took pictures
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: and then shared them Joe, he shared them and then
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: it wasn't just sharing them with his boss to say hey,
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: I just wanted you to have this or you would
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: know this is going on social media. You know how
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: they found out kids at the school.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: Kids at the high school. Yeah, and that's what kind
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: of flipped the switch relative to the sheriff's office to
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: look into this. Now, this volunteer firefighter was charged in
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: this case, yeah, with I don't know if it was
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: obstruction or.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: Or it was in charge obstruction.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so that's a very broad spectrum charge that
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: you can kind of hang on somebody. But the problem
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: is is that now you know when a volunteer firefighter,
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: and God bless them, because it's a hard job that
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: no one they're volunteers, but they're firefighters. They have to
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: go through the academy and a lot of people enjoy
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: being volunteer firefighters. They've got a lot of buddies over
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: the years that have done that. When they roll out,
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: they are rolling out as as first responders, so they're
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: probably trained in basic life saving. So when a call
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: comes up, they're going to say you know we've got
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: two individuals down. They're not going to say that over
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: the air that we've got a murdered suicide, because that
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: hasn't been concluded yet. All they know is that we've
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: got two people that have been found in this isolated
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: area on top of this mountain. So when this individual
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: would have rolled out, and there were probably maybe a
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: couple of the other ones. Sometimes they'll show up in
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: their private vehicles. If you ever see, like in your
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: rural areas, you'll see a guy in a pickup truck
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: and he's got a red light flashing on a private vehicle.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: Red lights indicate fire, blue lights indicate law enforcement. They
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: will roll up many times. They might live near that area,
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: and they carry these very powerful radios that even in
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: those isolated areas, they can pick up transmissions with he
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: probably showed up, And when he showed up, your first
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: inclination is to take photos of the dead and disseminate them.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: That's what we're doing because that's the way this worked out.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: And the problem is is that this individual has injected
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: themselves into the investigative bubble at this point in time.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: Hey, so this is right away, is he filming his
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: own did he set this up? How did he get
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: there so fast? Was he the guy that committed the murder?
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: And now he's back there pretending that he was. You know,
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: is this something you've ever heard of before? Joe had
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: somebody taking photos.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: It actually happened in Atlanta, and it was to my
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: great shame. I had nothing to do with it, but
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: it was my case. But we actually had this was
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: not a volunteer. This was an Atlanta firefighter. We had
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: a guy that was involved in a foot chase with
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: the police on what's called the Grady Curve, which is
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: an elevated portion of seventy five to eighty five that
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: is conjoined in downtown Atlanta. He hops out of his car,
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: runs through oncoming traffic, and I get We postulated that
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: he jumped over the wall, thinking that it was only
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: like a I don't know, a like a ten foot
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: drop as a thirty foot drop, and he landed on
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: a wrought iron fence, and a spike of the fence
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: went through his foremen magnum, which is the large opening
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: in the base of your skull. It ripped his body
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: off of or ripped his head off of his shoulders,
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: and the head is impaled on this thing and the
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: firefighter that was out there. This is in the early
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: days of digital cameras began snapping photos. And I've actually
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: got the photos that this individual took. They were sent
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: to me by an investigator that was homicide investigator. He says,
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: this is what happens when firefighters take photos. And I said,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: how did you get these? Guess what he told me?
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: He said, these came off of a German website, a
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: German administrative website back during the days when there was
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: like all of these websites like rotten dot com that
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: don't exist anymore, that show these horrible things. And so
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: to the point of the twins, to the point of
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: the Twins, that data you think about that was in
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: the early early mid two thousands probably when that happened.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: How much further reaching now is the internet social media
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: than it was back then. I mean, we didn't even
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: have things or think about things like Instagram and even
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: Twitter or x or whatever they call it now. And
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: you know, there was Facebook, but it didn't it wasn't
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: far and wild now everywhere. So these two kids, and
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: they are somebody's kids with a mama that loves them
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: very much, in a family that loves them very much.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: Now in this state of death, in an isolated area,
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: away from those that they love. They're dead, have been
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: out there for a while. This guy takes photographs and
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: disseminates them all over the place. So, yeah, if if
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: I were an investigator, I don't know necessarily that he
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: had anything to do with it. But if you're an investigator,
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: you have to go question this person he's added onto
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: the list at this point in time, because if they're
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: suspecting that this is something other than a quote unquote
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: murder suicide, then you would run down the list because Dave,
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: it's not like you're in a densely populated area up
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: there where you're going to run across people that would
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: do harm to you. Okay, So there's very few people,
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: first off, that know that this place exists, including the
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: twins according to their family, and this is in isolation.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: How do you get these two kids to get up here?
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: And they both got gunshot wounds. Family says they've never
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: been there before. And you're talking about driving through an
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: area that is it's beautiful, but it's scary. They've got
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: hairpin turns that run all through these areas, and there's
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: only two what would be considered I don't even want
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: to call him as thoroughfairs, but there's two state highways
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: that kind of run through this area. Everything else is
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: as my grandmother you say, pig trails. You have to
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: know where you're going. Sometimes your GPS doesn't even work
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: up there. So you got a lot going on here.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: As far as how they arrived, they're inside a locked area,
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: their vehicles there. Oh and let me tell you one
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: other thing. When the police got into the vehicle, their
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: wallets are in there, and those plane tickets for that
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: flight to Boston is still there and has never been used.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: A type of case that I was always fearful of
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: screwing up. Traditionally from me, at least was going to
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: be murder suicides. And I'll tell you why, because if
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: it's a murder suicide, there's violence involved. Generally there has
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: to be homicidal violence. And I was always terrified that
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: I was going to arrive at an incorrect conclusion and
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: that I would miss something. Because if you ever notice,
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: my friends, that when an individual, unless they're a high
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: profile subject, takes their life, never makes it into the
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: news cycle, never does as far as suicides are gone,
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: and do yourself a favorite. Pay attention to what I'm
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: saying right now. You will hear in the news today.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: You know, we had a murder suicide and a guy
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: went in and killed his whole family and then killed himself.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: How many other news cycles does it make it through?
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: It doesn't, It doesn't, maybe maybe two. There might be
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: a follow up article because they'll they'll catch your eye
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: with the horrific nature of slaughtering an entire family. The
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: individual kills himself and as far as the news media
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: is concerned, the news business, there's no other business to
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: be had here.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: There's no other story.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: Joe, Yeah, there is no The well has run dry.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: It's solved. But my question goes back to, very quickly
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: after the discovery of the bodies, we have the GBI
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: allegedly telling the family it's a murder suicide, or so
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: they believe that happened. Very early on, when you start
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: dealing with gunfire related homicide and suicide, what are you
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: looking for and what does it tell you? How could
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: they look at two dead bodies on the ground and
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: say it was a murder suicide if there's no witness
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: in a video.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is how it would work out. From me,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: This is what I think that they're thinking. At least,
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: this is what I think they're thinking. Don't you love
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: that we haven't heard anything about a note, Not that
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: they would necessarily tell us, because there have been cases
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: out there where a note was left behind and we
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: don't find out about it until well after the fact.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: But we haven't heard about that. Okay, we have. But conversely,
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: there has been according to the family, there's been no
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: suicidal ideation on either of these kids. And I would
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: imagine if there's no suicidal ideation, there's no what psychiatristfer
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: to as suicidal vocalization where they're saying, I want to
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: end my life, like they're entering into a pack to
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: end their lives together. All right, So how did they
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: arrive at this conclusion? Well, these we do know because
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: I think that let me check my notes here. I
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: think probably probably back in March seventeenth. March eighteenth, there
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: was a release from the state Medical Examiner that ruled
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: that rule these cases as gunshot wounds to the head,
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: all right, So my thought is they would probably if
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: they're calling some murder suicide, they would have had to
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: have recovered a weapon at the scene. That's the first
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: bit of information. So is the weapon lying immediately adjacent
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: to one of the twins, like to their hand? Okay,
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: is it in proximity of the body, because people, you
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: don't necessarily have to have a weapon in your hand
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: following suicide and it be a suicide because the body
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: does odd things afterwards, and it can come down to
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: how you fall, how you collapse, Bodies can spasm, It
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: depends on a lot of things. I've had. I've had
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: weapons that I've found that are some distance away from
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: the body, but yet still in that same space, and
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: it was ruled suicide, and I felt very comfortable with that.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: So I'm thinking that they probably found a weapon. Now
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: what type of weapon other than it is probably a firearm,
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: because they're calling these gunshot wounds. I have no idea
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: because they haven't released that information. Secondly, you're going to
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: be looking at the pathology on both of their bodies. Well,
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: what do you mean by that, Morgan? Well, I'll tell
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: you what I mean by it. What I mean by
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: that is the fact that they will have gunshot wounds.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: And if it is a let's say that this is
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: Let's take murder first. If this is a murder, a
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: word which I hate because it's a lawyer's word, I
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: prefer the word homicide. If this is a homicide, then
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: that means death at the hand of another. That's how
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: we define homicide in the medical legal world. You will
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: have a relationship between the end of the muzzle and
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: the bullet defect in the head. Now what that means
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: is what was your what was your range of fire?
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: What do you think the angle of fire was? So
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: was one of these individuals kneeling adjacent to the other
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: one and the other one walked up and popped them
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: in the head? Single gsw Is it a through and through?
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Did they press into the wound or into the scalp
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: for instance, where you have have what would be like
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: a tight seal and pull the trigger or were they
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: standing away? Well, if they're standing backwards of the body,
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: and the relationship from the end of the muzzle to
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: that point where the projectile enters the body, you're going
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: to have soot deposition if it's if it's a close range,
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: it can be close to intermediate. So if it's close range,
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: you're going to have soot position around there you'll have
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: bits of a flex of unburned gunpowder. And depended upon
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: how that distribution of that evidence is spread out away
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: from the actual hole in the body gives you an
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: idea of range. Just think about spraying of water hose.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: The further the further away you get from the nozzle itself,
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: it begins to expand outward, Okay, and you know it
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: forms like a big circle. So the further away you
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: are down range, the broader the circle gets until it
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: just kind of falls away. So they're looking at this
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: from that perspective. That's from the homicide perspective. Now, with
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: the suicide perspective, you can have self inflicted wounds, and
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: I've had them all over bodies. I've had people that
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: have taken weapons and flipped them upside down and placed
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: them at the back of their head to make it
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: look like they were executed. I've actually had that happen.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: I've had individuals, multitude of individuals that have placed weapons
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: adjacent adjacent to their temple and pull the trigger intra
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: oral gunshot wounds into the mouth. I've had people fire
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: weapons beneath their chin. I've had people fire weapons into
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: their chest. I've had one that fired a weapon into
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: their stomach, bad choice because they languish for some time.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: So you can have all of these different types of
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: attitudes relative to placement of the weapon, but there's something
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: that is pointing them there. And most of the time
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: day with suicides, the firing or discharging of a weapon,
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: the suicide is most of the time going to be
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: close contact or maybe even like a press contact. Press
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: contact means that the end of the muzzle is literally
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: just tight, it almost forms a seal in the skin,
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: and nothing expands outside of the muzzle. Really, it's all
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: blown into the body. That's a classic self inflicted gunshot wound.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: Can you have those in homicides most of the time,
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: not unless the individual is passed out asleep or you
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: have them restrained in some way to get a contact
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: gunshot wound like that, because most people, your natural reaction
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: is that if you're aware that a weapon is being
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: placed to your head, you're going to move away. You know,
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: you're going to try to parry that move and move away.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: So with suicides, that's one of the things that we
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: look for, and I think that that's probably how they're
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: reaching this conclusion. At least on the surface, we don't
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: have really anything else to go on in this case.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: And this is still you know, this is back in March.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: We're laying this down right now in the midst of
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: May Dave, and it's my understanding this case is still open, correct,
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: But yet they ruled it as a murder suicide.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: Well, it didn't necessarily rule it a murder suicide. They
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: told the family that that's what they believed it was,
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: and the family was very public saying they didn't do it,
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: they wouldn't do that, and they're still saying that, and
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: I understand it, I don't.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: It's tough to lose a family member and to lose
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: somebody in and they have trouble understanding it because it
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: was twins, because they were so close to have this happen,
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: one of them had to harm the other one first,
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: and they're just having trouble with that. Those that knew
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: the twins, those that knew these two men, I know,
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: we've often referred to them as boys because there so
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: many times when we have young people now that are
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: in their teens, especially when they're twins and brothers, we
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: refer to them as the boys. It's just how we
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: refer to young people. And I think the shock is
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: that I'm thinking about the family. I am thinking about them.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking about the horror what they must have felt
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: being told that, you know, they didn't know what happened.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: They just knew that They've got two nineteen year olds
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: who had never been as far as they knew to
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: all Mountain Georgia. That they weren't hikers, they weren't people
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: who drove way out of their way because they were
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: cheaps gigs. They didn't want to put gas in their car.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: So you're talking about driving ninety miles or you know,
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: from their house or ninety minutes from their house, I mean,
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: or ninety miles or ninety minutes.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: Ninety miles, yeah, miles, And it's I mean, it's a
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: poke to get up there. And like I said, if
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: I wish that everybody that is listening to this could
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: appreciate the distance that we're talking about, and ninety miles
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: from many people is like, that's not much of a distance. Well,
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: this is not driving down I five in California. Okay,
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: this is not like a straight shot. You have to
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: know where you're going. This place is so out of
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: the way. They have to pump sunlight in there because
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: it is isolated. It's on top of a mountain. It's
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: not like someplace you just kind of stumble on.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: And that's that's why the family has so much trouble
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: with it, Joe. They didn't like to burn their gas
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: as it is. Do you really think they're going to drive?
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah? I think it was a family member that I heard.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: He actually stated. He actually stated in the interview that
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: they don't like to drive. And I thought he was
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: going to say, because you know, Atlanta traffic is notorious.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: I thought he was going to say, they're fearful of
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: getting out on the road. No, no, no, no, no, that's
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: not We said they hate to spend money on gas.
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: You talk about two nineteen year olds that are that thrifty.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: That's the only way. I don't want to use the
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: word cheap, but they're thrifty. And you said that they're
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: drinking water. They're not, you know, knocking back SODA's are energetting.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: Drink, getting a snack and drinking water at the local
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: store at ten thirty at night.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So you know, I think that the dynamic Again,
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: you bring this up, Dave, and you say you said
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: it so well, and thanks for sharing that about your family.
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: The language that twins have, and it is a very
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: specific language. I mean, they have a way of communicating
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: with one another. How in the world could two young
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: men so bright and so full of life wind up dead,
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: so far away from the home that they had with
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: their family, with those that loved them, in such a
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: far isolated place. Listen, if you are anyone you know
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: is having trouble in their life and they're thinking about
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: ending their own life, all you got to do. It's
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: called three numbers. Eight eight nine eight eight. You're not alone.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: Help is available. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: body Backs.