Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #974 Roblox Rules

Transcript

#974 Roblox Rules · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:03
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.
0:05
Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just answers?
0:10
Speaker 3: Now Today on the Happy Families podcast, what is up
0:13
Speaker 3: with Roadblocks? Hello? This is doctor Justin Coulson, the founder
0:16
Speaker 3: of Happy Families dot com dot AUU and the author
0:19
Speaker 3: of a bunch of books about how you can make
0:21
Speaker 3: your family happy. I'm here with Kylie and this is
0:23
Speaker 3: Happy Families. Come to our six daughters, Kylie, how would
0:28
Speaker 3: you describe the screen situation in our home when it
0:30
Speaker 3: comes to kids and gaming? Non existent? That's how I
0:34
Speaker 3: would say it as well. We've got a fairly clear
0:37
Speaker 3: family policy, and that is no games on screens. Although
0:42
Speaker 3: we're not perfect at it, we're pretty strict with it.
0:45
Speaker 3: Do you think if we had sons rather than six
0:47
Speaker 3: daughters that that policy would be as sustainable as it
0:51
Speaker 3: has been.
0:53
Speaker 2: I think that it might have been challenged a lot
0:57
Speaker 2: more than it has been. In our homes. Are really
1:00
Speaker 2: grateful for a brother in law because he enables their
1:05
Speaker 2: desire from time to time.
1:06
Speaker 3: It's over with a gaming console now and then nice one, Jared.
1:11
Speaker 3: We've generally held that line pretty firmly, though, and I
1:15
Speaker 3: think that we would have still been pretty tight, pretty
1:17
Speaker 3: strict around it, even if we had sons. Today, we're
1:21
Speaker 3: going to talk about the reasons we don't do roadblocks
1:23
Speaker 3: and why we try to keep games on screens to
1:28
Speaker 3: a minimum.
1:30
Speaker 2: So I know you're pretty passionate about your dislike for roadblocks.
1:35
Speaker 2: I don't even know what it is really, honestly, I
1:38
Speaker 2: call it roadblocks.
1:39
Speaker 3: That's right. That's how much I don't know.
1:42
Speaker 2: So I'm interested to have this conversation today to find
1:45
Speaker 2: out why it is that you're so passionate about roadblocks
1:51
Speaker 2: roadblocks and not letting our kids play it. So what
1:55
Speaker 2: is it actually and why are you so up in
1:57
Speaker 2: arms about it?
1:58
Speaker 3: Okay, let's start with what it is is. It's not
2:02
Speaker 3: a game as much as it's a tool set to
2:03
Speaker 3: make video games, and then of course those video games
2:06
Speaker 3: become the games that kids play. So it's more of
2:08
Speaker 3: a platform with all kinds of game experiences that kids
2:12
Speaker 3: can engage with, and they can play, and they can build,
2:14
Speaker 3: and a whole lot more. They can have these immersive,
2:16
Speaker 3: interactive experiences that they wouldn't be able to get in
2:18
Speaker 3: the real world, even events that happen on roadblocks, concerts
2:23
Speaker 3: and that kind of thing, and these games and these events.
2:26
Speaker 3: They are all designed by the community. Honestly, as much
2:30
Speaker 3: as I don't want my kids playing with it, I've
2:33
Speaker 3: got to admit it is a brilliant system where everybody
2:38
Speaker 3: is part of the construction. I mean, you talk about
2:40
Speaker 3: creating buy in, that's what this does.
2:43
Speaker 2: So in parental guidance last year, the kids were playing
2:48
Speaker 2: a game, is that what Roadblocks was.
2:50
Speaker 3: They didn't play Roadblocks, but they played something similar. Going
2:52
Speaker 3: to come to that in just a sec. But essentially
2:54
Speaker 3: you've got a whole lot of different games that you
2:56
Speaker 3: can play while you're on there. There's first person shooter
2:58
Speaker 3: games like I guess kind of rip off of Call
3:01
Speaker 3: of Duty. There are role playing games, huge variety of options.
3:05
Speaker 3: Like I said, in person events, there's Piggy and Mission
3:07
Speaker 3: Mars and jarl Break. They're all used generated games that
3:09
Speaker 3: are on the platform. David Bazouki, who's the CEO of Roadblocks,
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Speaker 3: said this on his blog last May, and I quote
3:16
Speaker 3: he said, at Roadblocks, we're building an immersive platform for
3:18
Speaker 3: communication and connection with safety and civility at its foundation
3:23
Speaker 3: that simulates the real world. He said, in real life,
3:28
Speaker 3: people visit places designated for all ages, every day, from
3:33
Speaker 3: theme parks to city parks, older age groups, and to
3:37
Speaker 3: environments that require some form of age verification, from nightclubs
3:41
Speaker 3: to some concerts or movies on roadblocks. We want to
3:45
Speaker 3: recreate these dynamics of real life in virtual space.
3:51
Speaker 2: So there's a part of me that actually really likes
3:52
Speaker 2: the concept. It almost has the capacity for children to
3:58
Speaker 2: try new experience and try out I guess those skill
4:02
Speaker 2: sets in what I would like to say is a
4:06
Speaker 2: safe environment. But I'm going to assume, based on the
4:09
Speaker 2: fact that you are pretty up in arms about it,
4:11
Speaker 2: that this is not going to be a safe space
4:13
Speaker 2: for kids.
4:14
Speaker 3: Okay, so this is something that Roeblock says they're focused on.
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Speaker 3: They're focused on safety and civility. I mean, I look
4:19
Speaker 3: at this and think I would rather my kids go
4:21
Speaker 3: and have the real life experience. I would like to
4:23
Speaker 3: take them to the city park, and I don't necessarily
4:26
Speaker 3: want them to be hanging out in this online space
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Speaker 3: where there are a bunch of adults who are looking
4:31
Speaker 3: to go to nightclubs, and who knows what are the
4:33
Speaker 3: kinds of clubs or facilities that have been built in
4:36
Speaker 3: that online world. I don't want my kids to be there.
4:39
Speaker 3: I just don't like that.
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Speaker 2: But I'm imagining that so many parents are going, but
4:44
Speaker 2: I don't have time to take them to the park anymore.
4:46
Speaker 2: I got too many other things to do. Or I
4:49
Speaker 2: don't really want them interacting with real people just yet,
4:52
Speaker 2: because I'm just not sure who's safe and who's not.
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Speaker 3: So two quick responses that number one, research shows that
4:57
Speaker 3: parents are more involved them, more willing to take their
4:59
Speaker 3: children's places than ever before. Parents are really involved with
5:01
Speaker 3: their kids now, and they're keeping them safe, especially when
5:04
Speaker 3: they're out and about in real life. Second response, though,
5:08
Speaker 3: is that idea of I mean, it is super convenient, yes,
5:12
Speaker 3: but I promise you your kids are hanging out with
5:14
Speaker 3: much more dangerous people in that online environment than they
5:18
Speaker 3: are in the real world, especially when you're with them
5:20
Speaker 3: at the park or at the beach or at the shops.
5:22
Speaker 3: Now here's the other thing that Bazouki said. He said,
5:25
Speaker 3: quote more than fifty five percent of our users are
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Speaker 3: now over thirteen years old.
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Speaker 2: Okay, so if we were to put this another way,
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Speaker 2: you're suggesting that means that about forty five percent of
5:36
Speaker 2: their users are under thirteen.
5:39
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly right. And for context, roadblocks has over
5:43
Speaker 3: seventy million daily users. This is up to the minute
5:48
Speaker 3: stats I've just checked before. We've recorded current stats over
5:52
Speaker 3: seventy million daily uses and over two hundred and sixty
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Speaker 3: monthly users. So essentially half of that population, somewhere around
6:01
Speaker 3: thirty five million kids that are on there every day
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Speaker 3: are not even teenagers yet one hundred and twenty million
6:07
Speaker 3: monthly users not even teenagers. And if you get one
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Speaker 3: hundred million kids and put them in one box box, yeah,
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Speaker 3: one roadblocks that's going to invite certain adult engagement, among
6:21
Speaker 3: other challenges. So this is one of my central concerns.
6:24
Speaker 3: I just think we've got massive privacy concerns, massive safety concerns,
6:28
Speaker 3: and I want to come back to that in a minute,
6:30
Speaker 3: but I mean, there's just there's so much going on
6:32
Speaker 3: with this huge platform, and they want to be the
6:35
Speaker 3: world's first billion user platform gaming platform. Like they are,
6:40
Speaker 3: they're on track to absolutely own the planet. When it
6:44
Speaker 3: comes to our kids being on this on this.
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Speaker 2: Platform, I'm going to assume that, based on the numbers
6:50
Speaker 2: we're talking about in the age of children that are involved,
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Speaker 2: that this must be a free platform that kids have
6:58
Speaker 2: access to.
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Speaker 3: So yes it is, and no it's not What I
7:01
Speaker 3: mean by that is you can engage with and use
7:03
Speaker 3: Roadblocks for free. You can play Roadblocks for free, but
7:07
Speaker 3: they make really big money by selling in game add ons.
7:11
Speaker 3: And the way it works for anyone who's familiar with Fortnite,
7:13
Speaker 3: Fortnite has v bucks, Roadblocks has roebucks, and essentially, kids
7:18
Speaker 3: will use your credit card to use real money to
7:21
Speaker 3: buy roebucks, and then they use their roebucks to buy
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Speaker 3: their in game skins and their avatar bits and pieces,
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Speaker 3: add ons, anything that they want, any of those in
7:31
Speaker 3: game experiences. That's what they use roebucks for. And of course,
7:36
Speaker 3: because they're using Roadbucks, it's not real money. It's like
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Speaker 3: monopoly money, it's like play money. It has come from
7:40
Speaker 3: your real money, it's come from your credit card. But
7:42
Speaker 3: now they're in the game, it just feels like it's Roadbucks.
7:45
Speaker 3: It's not real. And the thing that I really struggle
7:48
Speaker 3: with here is Roadblocks and Fortnite and all of the
7:50
Speaker 3: other platforms that are doing this understand scarcity. So what
7:53
Speaker 3: they do is they give kids limited editions. This skin,
7:58
Speaker 3: there's only so many of them, and once they're they're gone.
8:00
Speaker 2: Now, well, this off is only available for a few
8:02
Speaker 2: minutes only for.
8:03
Speaker 3: This weekend, right, So it's a digital product. Technically it's limitless,
8:07
Speaker 3: but they use scarcity to crank up the pressure. And
8:10
Speaker 3: here's what I don't like, this pressure to buy. So
8:13
Speaker 3: if you go to the Avatar shop, for example, all
8:15
Speaker 3: kinds of items for the kids avatars, including scarce items,
8:19
Speaker 3: and they can cost breath taking amounts of money. So
8:22
Speaker 3: people have already purchased it, and then they go into
8:23
Speaker 3: the Avatar shop and they put it up for sale
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Speaker 3: for twice the amount. Why because there's none left and
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Speaker 3: they can charge a premium for it. It's in demand,
8:30
Speaker 3: and everybody wants it because they missed out. It's kind
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Speaker 3: of like an even more exploited version of what eBay is,
8:36
Speaker 3: and our kids don't have the psychological capacity to navigate this.
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Speaker 2: I remember not so long ago, one of our older
8:47
Speaker 2: daughters gave her younger sister her phone and had downloaded
8:52
Speaker 2: just a small game on the phone for her to
8:54
Speaker 2: play with, and I think within about ten minutes she'd
8:58
Speaker 2: racked up about eighty dollars on her credit card that
9:02
Speaker 2: was linked to her account, and she came to us going,
9:06
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, look what's happened. Emily had no idea
9:09
Speaker 2: what she was doing. She was just pushing buttons and
9:11
Speaker 2: doing things, and like you said, it doesn't feel like
9:13
Speaker 2: real money because you're just clicking a button.
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Speaker 3: Right, And so US regulators are looking at Roadblocks specifically,
9:19
Speaker 3: as well as a handful of other platforms obviously, but
9:21
Speaker 3: Roadblocks is near the top of their list, and they're
9:24
Speaker 3: essentially arguing that Roadblocks could be engaging in predatory behavior
9:29
Speaker 3: because kids don't know. They're exploiting vulnerable psychology in children
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Speaker 3: who don't understand money, and they're spending money that's not
9:37
Speaker 3: even real, even though they've converted real money to have
9:39
Speaker 3: the fake money. And in some ways as well, there
9:41
Speaker 3: are elements of what happens on Roadblocks that really are
9:44
Speaker 3: just introducing kids to gambling. On top of that, players
9:48
Speaker 3: can also make money by selling access to the spaces
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Speaker 3: that they've created. I found a page it's called the
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Speaker 3: Roadblocks Creator Hub page, and it says this Roadblocks's goal
9:58
Speaker 3: is to enable the creation of anything anywhere, by anyone,
10:03
Speaker 3: and we're constantly investing in new tools and services to
10:05
Speaker 3: empower our creative community. We give our creators from an
10:09
Speaker 3: individual to a large studio diverse ways to earn on
10:13
Speaker 3: Roadblocks by creating content and experiences, specifically developing an experience
10:18
Speaker 3: in experienced purchases, engagement based payouts, immersive ads, creating, selling
10:23
Speaker 3: and reselling avatar items, creating and selling studio plugins. So
10:27
Speaker 3: what this basically means is that any kind of enterprising kid,
10:30
Speaker 3: but more likely enterprising adults and studios can really make
10:35
Speaker 3: bank by developing experiences, by buying skins and avatar items
10:40
Speaker 3: that are limited in reselling, the huge profits and a
10:42
Speaker 3: whole lot more, and it's an experience. Roadblocks is literally
10:46
Speaker 3: designed to take money from kits, So that's the money
10:51
Speaker 3: side of things. That's one of several reasons that I
10:54
Speaker 3: really don't like Roadblocks.
10:56
Speaker 2: I'm assuming one of the major challenges that you have
11:01
Speaker 2: with this game and other games like it, it's just
11:04
Speaker 2: that no one knows who's who on the Internet. You're
11:08
Speaker 2: hiding behind an avatar, so.
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Speaker 3: Anyone can create an account pretend to whoever they want.
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Speaker 3: There's that Far Side cartoon by Gary Larsen where a
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Speaker 3: dog's typing on a computer and the caption below the
11:18
Speaker 3: cartoon says, on the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog
11:20
Speaker 3: and it's meant to be really funny, but there's a
11:22
Speaker 3: real dark side to this. So while I was preparing
11:25
Speaker 3: for this podcast, I signed up to Roadblocks with a
11:26
Speaker 3: fake account. I pretended to be a ten year old girl.
11:29
Speaker 3: I opened up the settings once I'd signed up for
11:31
Speaker 3: the account, and I just wanted to have a look
11:33
Speaker 3: at what the default settings were. And the default option
11:36
Speaker 3: for who can chat with me as a ten year
11:37
Speaker 3: old girl is everyone. It's not friends, it's not people
11:43
Speaker 3: I know, it's everyone. That's the default setting. From my
11:48
Speaker 3: perspective in twenty twenty four, this is unconscionable because this
11:53
Speaker 3: platform is literally offering a super highway for dodgy people
11:56
Speaker 3: to chat with our kids. And I know a lot
11:59
Speaker 3: of people say, well, it's not going to happen. It's
12:01
Speaker 3: not that big of a deal. It's a really low probability.
12:03
Speaker 3: But as you alluded to before, Clytie, when we used
12:06
Speaker 3: a similar game to Robbalks Empernal Guidance season two, you
12:10
Speaker 3: saw what happened.
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Speaker 1: So parents, we challenged you to give your kids an
12:14
Speaker 1: hour to play an online game popular amongst primary school children.
12:20
Speaker 1: The aim of the game is to trade with other
12:23
Speaker 1: players to get better items, and the trading relies on interactions.
12:28
Speaker 1: If you don't chat, you don't progress. We wanted to
12:32
Speaker 1: see what they did when a stranger approached them to
12:37
Speaker 1: replicate a real world situation. The stranger was an actor
12:42
Speaker 1: under the direction of an undercover AFP agent.
12:45
Speaker 2: Your online name is Pieter and you're trying to establish
12:48
Speaker 2: a relationship with funny animal.
12:50
Speaker 3: Maybe start by introducing yourself. Her name's really, she says,
12:55
Speaker 3: her name's Pepper. That's information she shouldn't be giving out
13:00
Speaker 3: someone already.
13:05
Speaker 1: Just being very open with you.
13:07
Speaker 3: Ask if she knows the local shopping center.
13:11
Speaker 1: It she says she does.
13:13
Speaker 3: Okay, keep building the relationship. See if she'd like to
13:15
Speaker 3: meet you at the shopping center.
13:17
Speaker 1: Oh my god, she said, yes.
13:21
Speaker 2: I still remember watching that with the kids, and just
13:24
Speaker 2: I've got goosebumps just thinking about it.
13:26
Speaker 3: It was so.
13:28
Speaker 2: Mind boggling to me just how wide open those kids
13:34
Speaker 2: were left.
13:34
Speaker 3: And that's the issue. Bad actors can and do get
13:39
Speaker 3: kids on platforms like roadblocks and bring them into other
13:43
Speaker 3: environments like discord or WhatsApp or Telegram or even Instagram
13:46
Speaker 3: and snapchat and danger looks. In America, there's something called
13:51
Speaker 3: the National Center on Sexual Exploitation. In some ways it's
13:54
Speaker 3: not exactly the same, but in some ways its similar
13:56
Speaker 3: to our Austlian Center account Child Exploitation and our e
13:58
Speaker 3: Safety Commissioner and the National Center on Sexual Exploitation has
14:02
Speaker 3: put Roadblocks on what they call their Dirty Dozen list.
14:05
Speaker 3: They've got a list of platforms where they're essentially saying
14:08
Speaker 3: Roadblocks is one of the companies most likely to be
14:11
Speaker 3: profiting from sexual abuse and exploitation of kids.
14:14
Speaker 2: That's intense. I'm so glad we don't have it.
14:16
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm really likely that this is why that TikTok right,
14:19
Speaker 3: even outside that risk, and that's such a huge risk.
14:22
Speaker 3: Probabilities are low, but it's a huge risk. There's also
14:26
Speaker 3: highly inappropriate content on Roadblocks that kids can access even
14:29
Speaker 3: when you've got your parental controls turned on. And get this.
14:33
Speaker 3: Just in response to what you said, I found a
14:35
Speaker 3: clip online indicating that the National Center on Sexual Exploitation
14:39
Speaker 3: has reached out to Roadblocks because they're on the Dirty
14:42
Speaker 3: dozen list multiple times to talk with them about ways
14:46
Speaker 3: that they can improve child safety and Roapeblocks isn't up
14:49
Speaker 3: for the conversation. They've come out. This center has literally
14:52
Speaker 3: come out and said we've tried, they're ignoring us, they
14:55
Speaker 3: don't want to talk, or at least at the time
14:58
Speaker 3: this was late last year, the content and the links
15:00
Speaker 3: that I found, they hadn't at that point.
15:03
Speaker 2: So basically, what you're saying is when we look at
15:05
Speaker 2: these very popular, high traffic user games, they're just like
15:14
Speaker 2: all of the other ones that there's no concern for
15:17
Speaker 2: the safety and wellbeing of our kids. It's all about money.
15:20
Speaker 3: Yeah. Inappropriate content, online predators, commercialization. They're the three things
15:25
Speaker 3: that I worry about most, and that's why that's why
15:28
Speaker 3: I've been so insistent, and you've been wonderful and supportive.
15:32
Speaker 3: That's why we don't have our kids on these platforms.
15:34
Speaker 3: Inappropriate content, online predators, commercialization.
15:38
Speaker 2: So the challenges parents we have is the fact that
15:40
Speaker 2: this is really popular. I would suggest that most kids
15:43
Speaker 2: in any given school classroom either have use of it
15:48
Speaker 2: on a daily basis or have had access to it
15:51
Speaker 2: in the past.
15:52
Speaker 3: And many school classrooms used Roadblocks or Minecraft as an
15:56
Speaker 3: in school learning function because of the spaces that have
15:59
Speaker 3: been created in the platform.
16:00
Speaker 2: And like I said at the very beginning, I actually
16:03
Speaker 2: love the concept. At the core of it. What they're
16:07
Speaker 2: actually trying to do. Sounds like a whole heap of fun.
16:10
Speaker 2: Sounds like some amazing educational benefits that can come and
16:15
Speaker 2: conversations that can start as a result of it. So,
16:18
Speaker 2: considering we live in a world where roadblocks plays a
16:21
Speaker 2: massive role in so many of our kids' lives, what
16:24
Speaker 2: is your advice to parents?
16:26
Speaker 3: Okay, so my advice would be the same as it
16:27
Speaker 3: is for all of the platforms, whether it's the social
16:30
Speaker 3: media platforms or gaming platforms, it's pretty much the same thing.
16:35
Speaker 3: And you've heard the conversations that we've had in our
16:37
Speaker 3: home in terms of just number one, I try to
16:40
Speaker 3: keep the kids off all platforms as much as possible,
16:42
Speaker 3: which I know creates some challenges and some contention from
16:45
Speaker 3: time to time. But that's something that I worked really
16:48
Speaker 3: hard on and I think it's the best advice that
16:50
Speaker 3: I can give. However, it's not always practical, it's not
16:53
Speaker 3: always realistic. So five other things that I would mentioned,
16:56
Speaker 3: and I always through them pretty quickly. They are all
16:58
Speaker 3: pretty basic to get your head around. Number One, you've
17:00
Speaker 3: just got another platform, Like I got onto rope Blocks
17:03
Speaker 3: and spent some time on it today, get on their
17:05
Speaker 3: play with it, watch it stream and engage with it.
17:07
Speaker 3: See what people are doing with it on YouTube. When
17:10
Speaker 3: you have a good look at it and understand the platform,
17:13
Speaker 3: you're going to have much better conversations with your children.
17:16
Speaker 3: Second thing, adjust the settings so that you can keep
17:19
Speaker 3: kids safe. First thing that I did when I signed
17:21
Speaker 3: up as a ten year old girl was went straight
17:23
Speaker 3: to the parential controls and how to look at the settings.
17:26
Speaker 3: Parental controls matter. They're not going to be fool proof
17:28
Speaker 3: and kids can and will find their way around them
17:30
Speaker 3: if they want to, but they will be helpful. Third thing,
17:34
Speaker 3: you really want to talk to your kids about being safe.
17:36
Speaker 3: Have regular conversations with your children. We are not perfect
17:39
Speaker 3: at this, but we try on the first Sunday of
17:42
Speaker 3: most months to have a conversation with the kids about
17:44
Speaker 3: tricky topics. Sometimes it's online safety, other times it'll be
17:47
Speaker 3: things of a moral nature. There's all kinds of different
17:49
Speaker 3: conversations that we have, and like I said, well we
17:51
Speaker 3: don't do it every first Sunday of the month. We
17:53
Speaker 3: try to do it as regularly as we can. This
17:55
Speaker 3: is one of those things where you talk to the
17:57
Speaker 3: kids about being safe. You tell them not to talk
17:59
Speaker 3: to people that they don't know. Tell them that if
18:02
Speaker 3: they are talking to somebody that they think that they
18:04
Speaker 3: know and that person encourages them to leave the platform
18:07
Speaker 3: and go somewhere else, don't do it. Tell them to
18:10
Speaker 3: check in with you whenever they're not sure about something,
18:13
Speaker 3: rather than just going right ahead and barreling full speed
18:16
Speaker 3: into something that could be devastating. Those conversations with the
18:19
Speaker 3: kids really matter.
18:21
Speaker 2: I would assume one of your points would be to
18:23
Speaker 2: monitor your kids, especially young kids, when they're using any
18:26
Speaker 2: of these platforms.
18:27
Speaker 3: Yeah, just all over them, Be over their shoulder, be
18:30
Speaker 3: asking the questions, be engaged. And the last thing that
18:32
Speaker 3: I would say is don't give you kids access to
18:34
Speaker 3: the credit card. Make sure that you know what they're
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Speaker 3: spending money on, because, like you said, Kylie, we had
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Speaker 3: one daughter who spent eighty bucks not too long ago
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Speaker 3: without anyone having a clue. Just bang, and you hear
18:46
Speaker 3: horror stories all the time, right.
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Speaker 2: I obviously acknowledged at the beginning of the podcast that
18:50
Speaker 2: I didn't really know much about roadblocks, right, and it
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Speaker 2: looks like I'm not missing out on a whole heap.
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Speaker 2: I'm really really grateful that it's not something that we
18:57
Speaker 2: have to contend with in our home. But hopefully, as
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Speaker 2: we've discussed things today, parents are now more aware of
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Speaker 2: what their children are being involved in and they can
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Speaker 2: utilize your advice to make sure that we work with
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Speaker 2: our kids to help keep them safe.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, hopefully this has been a helpful podcast. The Happy
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Speaker 3: Family's podcast is produced by Justin Rawan from Bridge Media.
19:16
Speaker 3: Craig Bruce is our executive producer. For more and fo
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Speaker 3: about how to make your family happier, visitors at happy
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Speaker 3: families dot com Today you