Latest / Teachers Talk Radio / How far should schools go in addressing needs that sit outside education?: The Twilight Show with Tom Rogers

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How far should schools go in addressing needs that sit outside education?: The Twilight Show with Tom Rogers · Teachers Talk Radio

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Good evening, everybody.
1:20
And welcome to Teachers Talk Radio on this Thursday evening.
1:26
Thank you very much to everybody already tuning in
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to spend a little bit of time with us tonight.
1:32
We've got this show, which is just starting, obviously.
1:36
And then we have another one at eight o'clock.
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So make sure you tune in for that as well.
1:39
So we've got two live shows for you tonight and a couple more tomorrow as well.
1:42
So I'll talk more about those later on.
1:44
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1:48
followed us, sent us messages.
1:51
Everybody who's supported Teachers Talk Radio in the last few weeks.
1:55
It's been great to see some of the comments and engagement and conversation.
1:59
And anybody who follows us knows that 90% of the people on this
2:07
are current teachers and current practitioners.
2:10
And tonight is no different because we've got Rachel,
2:12
who's a deputy head in a primary school in Newham.
2:15
And we're going to be digging into a conversation
2:17
about how far schools should go in addressing needs that sit outside education.
2:23
Now, I'm sure there'll be many of you out there who might have a view on this.
2:27
Do send us a comment in at any point during the show.
2:30
Maybe you've got a question for Rachel if you are watching this live.
2:33
Of course, if you're watching this back or listening to this back,
2:36
then we'll point you in some directions later on
2:39
if you want to continue the conversation
2:41
or you can just follow Teachers Talk Radio on social media as well.
2:44
But we're going to be digging into that conversation
2:46
because, Rachel, you wrote a blog which people can find on TES
2:52
about sort of how you feel that...
2:56
Would I be right in saying a radical...
2:59
Maybe not. Maybe radical is too far.
3:00
But you want to see more changes in the way schools approach
3:07
supporting vulnerable students.
3:10
Would that be fair?
3:11
Yeah, that's really good.
3:13
I agree.
3:14
However, it's not vulnerable students.
3:16
It's all students.
3:17
Because my worry with when we look at vulnerable students
3:21
is that over the course of a child's primary education,
3:23
they're going to be vulnerable at different points.
3:25
So it's kind of like thinking about every single child,
3:28
which is hard when you're in big schools.
3:30
And it's hard with the fact that we don't have as many TAs as we used to
3:34
and teachers are incredibly strict.
3:36
So you have to kind of think about the systems you already have in your school
3:39
and how you can improve those as much as possible.
3:43
To embed well-being and mental health.
3:45
Sure. Now, just to give context,
3:49
Newham is obviously for all our...
3:51
Anybody who's watching us internationally,
3:53
do you want to explain where Newham is?
3:55
Give a little bit of context on where you're actually working as a teacher
3:59
and what you're doing there.
4:01
Yeah. So I've worked in Newham for almost 21 years.
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Before that, I was in Barking and Dagenham,
4:07
where I started my teaching career.
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So both those boroughs are in East London.
4:12
And they're quite deprived.
4:14
Yeah.
4:15
So it has its own set of challenges.
4:18
Yeah. I mean, I was reading some statistics on Newham earlier,
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which I'm now frantically trying to find,
4:26
but they were... Oh yeah, here it is.
4:28
Around 50% of children in Newham,
4:31
according to government metrics, live in poverty.
4:35
Roughly one third of children experience food insecurity
4:38
and Newham is considered one of the most food insecure boroughs in London.
4:42
And obviously you're working at the heart of that
4:44
because you're in a primary school, aren't you?
4:46
Yeah.
4:47
Now, just for a bit of background on you, Rachel,
4:50
what year group have you been teaching over these 21 years?
4:55
Are you somebody who prefers like the year fives and sixes?
4:58
Or are you a more...
4:59
Are you like a reception early years person?
5:03
Yeah. I love early years.
5:04
Yeah. I like to get them in at three
5:07
when they haven't ever been told the word no.
5:10
And I'm the first person telling them no.
5:12
Is that a joke though?
5:14
Or do you think actually that's true?
5:16
For a lot of children, unfortunately, it's true.
5:20
Yeah.
5:20
Yeah. It's quite a challenge that.
5:24
Often they were coming in with nappies
5:27
and we would have to, you know, have quite...
5:31
We would be very nurturing, but we'd also have, you know,
5:34
rules around how we treat each other
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and how we... a lot of self-help skills as well.
5:40
And that was quite a few years ago when I last taught in nursery.
5:45
However, since COVID, it's a lot worse as you...
5:48
It's a lot more challenging than it used to be since COVID.
5:52
How do you deal with that though?
5:54
You mentioned the nappies issue
5:56
because this has been in the news this week again.
5:58
I don't know if you've seen with Bridget Phillips
6:00
and she wrote an article on LBC where...
6:03
This was yesterday where she's been talking about
6:05
this new guidance on...
6:07
And she's mentioned being toilet trained a few times in the article, etc.
6:12
So, I mean, as a teacher, as a deputy head,
6:14
how do you deal with that, with the students and the parents?
6:18
How do you manage that in a way?
6:20
What do you do?
6:22
Yeah, so we have quite strong induction procedures for early years,
6:25
which include nursery home visits.
6:28
So that before the children start with us at around the age of three,
6:32
they get a home visit,
6:33
which is very powerful in finding out more about the family
6:36
because you see how they're living,
6:38
who they're living with,
6:40
their challenges within the home.
6:41
And you can also pick up possibly on safeguarding issues very quickly,
6:46
scents that hasn't been diagnosed,
6:48
the amount of technology in the home,
6:50
the amount of books, toys, cleanliness.
6:53
You pick up on a lot of things.
6:54
They're very insightful.
6:56
And then this happens at the end of the summer term
6:59
before they're going to start, for example.
7:01
And you would say that the expectation is
7:04
by the time they start with us,
7:05
they need to be out of nappies,
7:06
they need to be toilet trained.
7:08
In addition to that, they have a meeting where it's repeated.
7:12
So they come into the school and they have a meeting
7:14
about what the expectations are again.
7:17
And if they start with us and they are in a nappy,
7:19
quite often we will tell the parents,
7:22
you know, this isn't what was agreed.
7:24
We don't have the staffing to be changing nappies.
7:27
They're here, you know, to be educated
7:29
and to learn how to integrate with other children.
7:33
And quite often we will say,
7:37
we're going to take the pull-up off
7:38
and we're going to see how they go.
7:40
And if it isn't working, we'll say, you know,
7:42
can you work a little bit harder at home?
7:45
We try, we want to keep them in school
7:47
because it's better for us.
7:48
At the end of the day, it's better for them.
7:52
It's just a lot of communication with the parents
7:54
and it's a lot of trust building.
7:55
And especially if it's their first child,
7:57
then it can be hard.
8:00
However, obviously you get children who have SENDs
8:03
that's except, you know,
8:04
you understand completely why they need that.
8:06
They need to be in pull-ups.
8:10
Yeah, I mean, there'll be many of our viewers and listeners
8:13
and actually just people out there.
8:14
I've seen commentary, you know, around,
8:18
do you think that this is just the new reality?
8:21
And it's something that, you know, schools,
8:24
I'm not saying schools should embrace it.
8:26
I'm not going to use those terms,
8:27
but do you think this is something that schools
8:29
just need to get on board with?
8:31
Or do you think actually that you and sort of school leaders
8:35
and there'll be people out there who said
8:36
schools need to push back.
8:38
Schools need to say, you know,
8:39
we're not having this sort of thing
8:41
and we need to be sort of firmer and more,
8:44
you know, that's your responsibility.
8:46
You need to do it rather than sort of take that on
8:49
if you know what I mean.
8:50
Yeah, I think it's a really hard balance
8:52
because you want them in school.
8:55
Obviously in days gone by when I was in Barking and Dagenham,
8:57
we were attached to a Sure Start Centre.
8:59
So the children would start there from quite young.
9:01
Parents didn't pay for it necessarily.
9:03
And they, all that was education and support was done there.
9:09
But often when we're getting them in at three years old,
9:11
the majority have not ever been out
9:14
of the parent's care before.
9:17
I think, sorry, go on, go on.
9:19
I do think health visitors could help a little bit more,
9:22
but then obviously they're stretched and all that.
9:25
Yeah, I really don't know what the answer is.
9:27
I think we just have to keep drip, drip telling the parents
9:31
before they start with us, this is our expectation.
9:34
Sure, you mentioned that thing about not hearing the word no.
9:37
How do you gauge that?
9:39
How do you know that they hadn't heard the word no
9:42
or they hadn't been told no?
9:43
I know they've heard the word no,
9:44
but I know what you meant when you said that.
9:47
How do you, how do you, how are you identifying?
9:49
How are you going, you know,
9:52
they don't understand that this is like,
9:54
they can't do that, you know, no, you can't do that.
9:57
Is it because of their reaction to it?
9:59
Yes, yeah, it can be some tantrums and things like that.
10:02
But, but when I worked in nursery, it was the same.
10:06
It was like that then as well.
10:08
Yeah, I think, I think everything we're talking about
10:10
really comes down to building relationships
10:11
with the parents, getting the parents to trust you.
10:15
So not saying, saying it to them in a judgmental way,
10:18
but saying it to them in a very supportive way
10:20
and saying, you know, it's only for the best for your child.
10:22
If we can all be saying the same thing,
10:25
we have a very strong behavior policy in school
10:27
and that all the wellbeing comes through that,
10:29
all the nurturing.
10:30
So it's not a one-sided like punitive policy.
10:34
It is very supportive and I, it's all on our website.
10:38
Obviously, we're very transparent.
10:40
All of this is explained to parents.
10:42
So I think it's a lot of information sharing
10:44
and it's a lot of support and understanding
10:47
where the parent's coming from,
10:49
because there may have been issues with the birth that,
10:52
you know, there could have been a lot of complications
10:53
that happened and that's why the parents are so, yeah.
10:57
I mean, it could technically be any reason, right?
10:59
In particular circumstances.
11:00
Yeah, of course, of course, yeah.
11:02
Okay, I mean, you work, you mentioned,
11:04
we're going to dig into your sort of thoughts
11:06
on this stuff that you've written about in a minute,
11:08
but you've obviously mentioned
11:09
you work in a deprived area, you know,
11:12
just again, just to give some context
11:14
and talk about the broader sort of challenges,
11:17
you work alongside lots of teachers in your school,
11:19
you know, so, you know, you're there as a deputy head,
11:22
it's primary level.
11:24
I mean, what are the big challenges
11:26
that teachers are facing at the moment in your,
11:30
I mean, it doesn't even have to be your school,
11:32
but what do you think, you know,
11:34
what is going on on the day-to-day
11:36
for teachers in those contexts?
11:38
Are they finding it tougher?
11:39
Are the headlines that come out correct
11:42
about, you know, the surveys and everything else
11:44
about, you know, the worries
11:47
and the struggles of teachers in these areas?
11:49
Because there'll be people out there
11:50
who've never worked in one of these areas.
11:52
They don't understand what it is like
11:54
to work in one of these areas in these schools.
11:57
So I wanna really, I want you to outline really,
12:00
if you can, what it is like on the day-to-day.
12:03
What are the great things?
12:04
What are the challenges of working
12:06
in such a deprived area for,
12:09
and I don't say that in a sort of,
12:12
you know, like patronizing way,
12:13
oh, it's such a deprived area.
12:15
I just mean like it is factually, like it is.
12:17
So what would you say?
12:19
What's it like day-to-day?
12:21
I think one of the frustrations for our teachers
12:23
is the fact that the progress measure
12:25
in our school is so high,
12:26
like it would be in a lot of schools similar to ours,
12:29
because when they come in at three
12:31
or as a mid-phase admission,
12:33
that's talking about children
12:34
that come in midway through any year group.
12:37
And then any year we have on around,
12:39
around 90 children coming in,
12:42
which is equivalent of three whole classes
12:43
of new children coming into the school.
12:46
And a significant number of those
12:48
do not speak English.
12:51
So your children have got,
12:58
a lot of our children are EAL,
12:59
so English as additional language,
13:01
as well as that,
13:02
which doesn't mean in any detriment,
13:04
actually it's the opposite,
13:06
because they have got a mother tongue at home
13:09
and then they're learning English absolutely fantastic.
13:11
So in the long run,
13:12
it's an amazing thing to have.
13:14
But in terms of a progress measure,
13:16
it's so strong.
13:17
But what we're really judged on is our outcome.
13:22
So I think that can be a frustration for teachers
13:24
in areas like ours.
13:26
So just to clarify that you're saying that,
13:29
I mean, give us a roundabout figure
13:30
of what percentage don't speak English
13:32
when they come in.
13:33
I'm guessing you mean when they come in in early years.
13:37
Not just early,
13:37
it's a lot of our mid-phase admissions
13:39
and I've said about 90.
13:41
I couldn't, I would say,
13:43
off the top of my head.
13:44
Sorry, I'm asking you loads of questions.
13:46
Yeah, no, no, it's good.
13:47
It's great.
13:47
It's making me reflect.
13:49
I'd say of those 90,
13:50
we probably would have about 20 or more
13:53
who don't speak English.
13:55
Okay.
13:56
Who possibly come from overseas.
13:58
Sure.
13:58
And then a lot of our three-year-olds that come in,
14:02
quite a lot of those would not necessarily,
14:04
they might have a few words in English,
14:05
but they have a mother tongue as well.
14:07
But in terms of EAL,
14:09
when we say EAL,
14:09
we're talking about children
14:10
who have another language at home.
14:12
In our school, that would be very, very high.
14:15
Yeah.
14:15
Sure.
14:15
So it's second language learners.
14:18
Yes.
14:18
In the vast, in the vast majority within the school.
14:21
Yeah.
14:21
And on average, we've got about 30
14:24
that come from homes that speak Urdu.
14:27
That's their parents or their grandparents from Pakistan,
14:31
about 30% or just a bit under from Bangladesh.
14:35
We have a significant number of Indians
14:38
and then quite a few Romanians.
14:41
So several, quite a few different languages
14:45
in our school as well.
14:46
So I'd say the first thing for teachers
14:48
is it would be nice to be a bit more recognised
14:50
for the progress measure.
14:51
However, our outcomes at year six are-
14:53
What do you mean recognised for the progress measure?
14:55
So if they're coming in so young,
14:58
you know, sorry, when they're coming in,
15:00
at whatever stage, they're coming in quite low.
15:02
But obviously the expectation is
15:04
they're still leaving at that national expectation
15:07
and we get them above that.
15:10
Sure.
15:11
But then you'd be at a school,
15:13
perhaps somewhere in leafy West London,
15:15
where they're coming in at a very,
15:16
you know, age appropriate level.
15:20
And they're coming out at the same.
15:21
But on progress, on like progress that, you know,
15:24
sort of a progress eight style thing,
15:26
wouldn't that benefit you then in those metrics?
15:29
Because wouldn't that be like,
15:30
their starting point was this
15:31
and then they managed to get to-
15:33
Yeah, absolutely.
15:34
Yeah, as long as I've said,
15:35
take that into account as well.
15:37
Yeah.
15:38
Yeah.
15:39
Yeah, yeah.
15:40
That's another kettle of fish, Rachel.
15:42
Yeah, and I think, yeah,
15:44
I think that's something to think about.
15:46
And in addition to that,
15:48
is that in our school previously,
15:51
I'd say going back about five years,
15:53
every year group had a pastoral worker,
15:55
which was really instrumental in embedding
15:57
all this mental health work that we've done.
16:00
And there would also be a TA or two possibly as well.
16:04
So we had with four form entry.
16:07
So we have four classes in every year group
16:09
at this time.
16:09
We do have falling roles at the moment,
16:11
but at this time we have four classes in every year group.
16:14
And so the teachers would have a lot of support
16:17
in the classroom.
16:18
All that's been cut because obviously the funding cuts.
16:23
And so we're down on TAs.
16:25
So that is really hard for teachers
16:27
that for the majority of the time,
16:28
they are there with their 30 children.
16:31
Yeah, on their own.
16:32
Yeah, on their own.
16:33
Average class size 30?
16:35
Yeah, yeah.
16:36
And you're saying they had,
16:38
you're saying that every teacher had two TAs?
16:40
Every year group.
16:41
Every year group would have a pastoral worker,
16:44
a TA and possibly a second, possibly not.
16:47
So four classrooms would be sharing two or three TAs.
16:53
Yeah.
16:54
Which is amazing.
16:55
So if there was a first aid accident,
16:57
incident, or there was a need for,
17:00
you know, some lower ability children for support,
17:03
they'd have that.
17:05
Certain year groups have still got a TA,
17:10
but it's pretty far and few between.
17:12
Yeah.
17:12
And then obviously when there are absences for the TAs,
17:15
we don't cover that.
17:16
We don't get agency in anymore
17:17
because it just isn't the money.
17:19
And it's not just our school.
17:20
We've done quite well,
17:21
but other schools are in a worse predicament than we are.
17:24
So teachers are incredibly resilient.
17:26
The way they keep going, keep going.
17:28
Things keep changing and they keep going.
17:32
I was going to say, that is tough.
17:34
And I always talk on here about how difficult it is in a,
17:39
I mean, I teach secondary.
17:41
So it's a completely different kettle of fish.
17:44
And, you know, I'd be like kindergarten cop
17:48
if I was teaching there.
17:49
I know, it's hard.
17:52
I know, I know.
17:53
And when you reflect.
17:56
Yeah, absolutely.
17:57
It's really challenging.
17:58
When you think like as a parent,
17:59
I've only got two children
18:01
and sometimes I find it hard to manage them.
18:03
But you've got a teacher managing 30.
18:07
And I know other people's children
18:09
listen to you more than your own children.
18:11
I know all of that.
18:12
Yeah, and to be fair, I've spoken,
18:14
I've got obviously made to teach primary
18:16
and they've said to me,
18:17
I can't imagine doing secondary.
18:19
You know, and I'm going, no,
18:21
compared to what you're doing.
18:22
They're going, no, honestly,
18:23
like it's the sort of teenage aggro.
18:25
I couldn't deal with that.
18:26
I'd just be like, no, I can't do this.
18:29
So I'm like, yeah, I get it.
18:30
But like every phase has its own challenge.
18:34
And the thought for me,
18:35
I mean, are you saying that the class size
18:37
is a 30 across the whole piece?
18:41
Across the whole school?
18:42
Yeah.
18:43
No, not at the moment, unfortunately,
18:45
because we have got, like I said,
18:46
falling numbers.
18:47
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
18:49
Yeah.
18:52
Yeah, I mean, 30 at any phase or level
18:56
is it's hard.
18:57
It's hard work.
18:58
It's really hard work.
18:59
You have to be on it all the time.
19:01
And you have to be just,
19:03
you almost have to be superhuman at times.
19:07
And that was pre or any sort of,
19:09
you know, not having support in class.
19:11
I mean, for me,
19:13
and this is only me talking,
19:15
you know, ultimately,
19:17
you know, as the teacher in the room,
19:21
it can often come down to you in the end.
19:24
You can have 10 people in the room,
19:25
10 adults in the room.
19:26
And in the end,
19:27
the book is going to stop with someone
19:29
and it's you, you know.
19:30
So, I mean, that's not to say
19:32
that those things don't help.
19:33
Of course, they do.
19:34
I mean, the more adults you have, the better.
19:35
But ultimately, you've still got to run that room.
19:39
Yeah, yeah.
19:39
With 30 in it.
19:41
And also deploy, deploy.
19:43
You know, when those teachers did have the adults
19:46
came down to the deployment,
19:48
effective deployment of them as well.
19:50
So therefore, because of this challenge
19:53
that we're all having,
19:54
you have to make sure that your policies
19:56
are really tight.
19:56
So things like your behaviour policy
19:58
is really clear with the parents
20:00
and with all the staff.
20:01
And everyone fully is on board with it
20:03
and understands it.
20:04
So there isn't much wriggle room
20:06
because that can really help
20:07
if you've got your 28, 30 children
20:10
and they all know the expectations
20:12
and we're very clear in our school.
20:13
There are constant reminders
20:14
we follow through.
20:16
Some of our sanctions are a little bit unusual.
20:20
Oh, tell me.
20:21
I want to know, Rachel.
20:23
Tell me about the unusual sanctions.
20:25
Yeah, so we have stages,
20:28
we have like levels rather,
20:30
not stages, levels.
20:31
So if it's a low level behaviour,
20:33
it's a level one.
20:34
That could be like rocking on a chair.
20:36
A level two would be possibly,
20:40
I don't know,
20:41
repeatedly not listening to the teacher.
20:43
A level three could be play fighting.
20:47
A level four would be more deliberate
20:50
acts of violence
20:51
or bringing in a prohibited,
20:52
like bringing a phone into school,
20:54
something like that.
20:55
Would be a level four.
20:55
Now, when you reach a level four,
20:58
it's all very serious.
20:59
A letter goes out,
21:00
meeting with the parents
21:01
and then it's causing internal exclusion,
21:05
internal respite, level four.
21:07
And the parent has to come into school
21:10
for anything between one to five days.
21:12
That's what we've put in our policy
21:13
and sit in a reflection room with their child.
21:15
The child is isolated.
21:16
So the child is taken away from the class
21:18
and has schoolwork to do,
21:20
but with the parents.
21:22
Okay.
21:23
And if it's very serious,
21:25
we can go up to that five days.
21:26
We've never done that,
21:27
but it's just to make the parent understand
21:30
that this behavior is not acceptable.
21:32
It's affecting the class.
21:33
It's affecting the other children.
21:34
It's also affecting your child's learning
21:37
and get them really on board
21:38
with what we're saying
21:39
because the next level is a level five,
21:42
which is where they have to go home
21:44
and do the respite at home.
21:49
And then the next level is exclusion.
21:52
And we do refer to these things in meetings.
21:54
We've never got to a level five or six,
21:58
but the level four has reduced.
22:02
We used to do quite a few,
22:04
but I think just even mentioning that to children
22:06
that, oh my goodness, no, no, no.
22:08
A level three is a report card,
22:09
a two week report card
22:10
that gets sent home to the parents.
22:12
So the parents are fully involved in the process
22:16
and because they don't want to have
22:17
to take time off work
22:18
or they don't want to have to find childcare
22:20
for their younger children,
22:22
they quickly get on board.
22:24
Yeah, so they don't come into lessons.
22:27
They just go to a room within the school.
22:31
With their child for the day.
22:33
The child doesn't have lunch with their friends.
22:36
I mean, sometimes one day's enough,
22:38
even half a day sometimes enough.
22:40
They realise, you know, this is not fun.
22:44
Yeah, so it has worked.
22:46
We were a bit worried at first
22:47
because I didn't know any of the schools that did it,
22:50
but we trialled it
22:52
and we've been doing it now for probably about,
22:54
I don't know, six, seven years.
22:57
But do parents do it?
22:58
Yeah.
23:00
You'll have a couple where you know
23:02
that the parents are a bit of a pushover
23:05
and it will not work
23:06
because the child is ruling the roost
23:08
and actually you'll say,
23:10
do you know what, we'll do it
23:11
and our behavioural mentor is absolutely amazing
23:13
and he will do that
23:15
and he will go through the work with them.
23:16
But for the majority, the parents do it
23:20
and we say, no, you have to take time off work,
23:22
you have to find childcare
23:24
and it's very important that we all work together on this.
23:27
And I think once the parents see
23:28
you're all saying the same thing,
23:29
your expectations are higher,
23:32
they do tend to toe the line.
23:34
I think that's a good idea.
23:37
I've seen it done.
23:38
I think years ago I wrote a blog
23:41
and I had seen that being done.
23:44
It wasn't in the UK.
23:45
It was in another country,
23:46
but it was done quite,
23:47
I can't remember what country it is now
23:49
for the life of me.
23:51
I do think it's a good idea to do that.
23:53
I really, really do.
23:55
If you can do it.
23:56
Yeah.
23:58
And I think because we've been doing it for so long now,
24:01
people starting the school,
24:02
they just, they probably may have heard,
24:05
people may have spoken about it
24:06
or they've got siblings in the school
24:08
or they know people.
24:08
It's just accepted
24:09
that that's the way we do things around here.
24:11
It's behaviour policies on our website.
24:14
So it's very clear.
24:16
And the other thing we added into that
24:19
was a bit of community service.
24:21
Now that brought up some problems,
24:24
picking up litter in the playground
24:25
and clearing up the dining room.
24:27
It's giving back to the community that you've upset.
24:29
So yeah, it's-
24:31
Did that work?
24:33
Yeah, we had some complaints about that one.
24:36
We did, you know, my child's not a slave.
24:38
Okay.
24:38
So we're not so hot on that now.
24:41
We don't really need to be.
24:42
I mean, it just runs.
24:43
It just, you know, it is remarkable
24:46
that we're quite a big school
24:47
and we don't really have that many
24:49
serious behaviour issues.
24:51
And when you walk into class,
24:52
the majority of children
24:55
are completely on task.
24:58
Would the teachers say that?
25:00
I say that in a very devil's advocate way here, Rachel,
25:03
because all I'm saying is,
25:07
I'm not saying this is you, by the way,
25:09
as a senior leader of a school
25:10
that you're really proud of.
25:11
I'm not saying that.
25:12
What I am saying, though,
25:14
is out there at the moment, we do have,
25:16
you only have to spend about 20 minutes on LinkedIn
25:18
to realise there's a culture of,
25:21
you know, everything's fantastic,
25:23
going amazingly well.
25:25
Now it may well be,
25:27
but there may be teachers in there
25:28
who are either too scared to say it's not going well
25:31
and actually they're really not feeling the reality
25:34
on the ground of what the leadership is saying
25:37
on social media or on a podcast
25:39
or in a blog or whatever it is.
25:42
I mean, don't get me wrong.
25:43
I'm not saying it should be,
25:44
no school is ever going to be perfect.
25:46
Let's be realistic now.
25:47
If you're a teacher in a school,
25:48
you're like, I'm expecting perfection.
25:49
You're never going to get perfection.
25:50
It's never been a perfection job as a teacher.
25:53
It's the dawn of time.
25:55
So let's be honest about it.
25:56
But equally, I do think there's a bit of fakery there.
25:58
This is just my opinion.
25:59
I do think there can be fakery there
26:01
around what is actually going on
26:03
versus the classroom teacher experience.
26:06
Yeah, that's a really good point.
26:09
We keep lines of communication open
26:11
and it's something I always want,
26:13
you know, if you get an external in,
26:15
it's something I'm always very interested in our view on
26:18
and especially visitors.
26:19
How did you feel about the school?
26:22
And that's why I said the majority of children
26:24
because I'm not one of these people that say
26:26
bullying never happens in our school
26:28
because that's ridiculous.
26:30
I don't know how anyone can say that.
26:32
So that's why I say the majority.
26:33
Yeah, and you know, externals come in
26:35
and say your children are calm, they're focused.
26:38
And I think what happens is
26:39
some people would even say that
26:42
some of our teachers could be dis-skilled
26:44
in terms of the behaviour
26:45
because what happens is
26:46
they just pass it straight onto the behaviour mentor.
26:48
Whereas previously, when we didn't have a behaviour mentor,
26:51
the teachers and the SLT would be dealing with it all.
26:54
But now we have this person, this, you know,
26:57
is trained behaviour mentor
27:00
who comes into the classroom.
27:01
If they need to remove the child,
27:03
they remove the child
27:04
and they do the follow up with the parents.
27:05
The teacher doesn't really have to get involved.
27:08
OK. Oh, that's yeah.
27:09
So it's like it's like centralised a little bit.
27:12
Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
27:13
Yeah. All right.
27:14
Listen, before we get into this stuff
27:17
about what we were actually going to talk about,
27:19
we got completely diverted by like nappies
27:21
and behaviour policies have been very interesting, though.
27:24
I just want to give a shout out
27:25
to our sponsors and supporters at TTR.
27:27
So first off the bat,
27:29
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27:31
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27:33
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27:35
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27:36
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27:38
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27:42
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27:45
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27:46
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27:49
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27:52
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And of course, it's amazing CPD.
27:59
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28:01
There's a tab on there that says apply,
28:03
hit that and you can become an examiner this summer.
28:06
And anyone you speak to really,
28:08
who's been an examiner will tell you
28:09
it's the best CPD as a teacher they've ever done.
28:12
We're talking here at secondary level, really.
28:15
So check it out, AQA.
28:18
Okay, in this article you wrote,
28:22
you argue that traditional school-based
28:25
mental health support isn't enough in high need areas.
28:30
What do you think other models are getting wrong?
28:33
So I do think that the reason why I'm saying this is,
28:40
when I trained to become a senior mental health lead,
28:45
and I'm also a mental health first aid trained as well,
28:50
I was quite taken aback.
28:52
You know, when you go in the breakout rooms,
28:53
I was quite taken aback by what they were talking about
28:57
in their schools.
28:58
Because I was like, we were there 15 years ago.
29:00
Like they were so busy.
29:01
We were there 15 years ago, like they were so behind.
29:04
And they didn't seem aware of the rich resources out there,
29:07
like the websites, the training, the interventions,
29:12
everything else.
29:13
Now, that's all well and good, that,
29:16
because they are the additionality, I'd say.
29:18
It comes down to the culture of the school.
29:20
And it comes down to the head teacher really understanding
29:24
and his vision being around core values and character
29:28
and relationships, trust, integrity, transparency,
29:32
all those things.
29:32
And I think if you've got that at the top,
29:34
it will filter down.
29:37
Also, a passion for the community
29:39
and really wanting to get to know the people
29:42
that you're serving and what their needs are.
29:45
So not necessarily adding new things initially,
29:49
because that is hard,
29:51
but looking at your existing policies,
29:54
like your attendance and behaviour,
29:56
making sure that mental health support
30:01
is embedded through all of that.
30:03
So my journey with this mental health situation
30:08
was that going back about 11, 12 years,
30:14
we had a staff retention, a lot of staff were leaving.
30:18
So we had an issue with retaining our staff.
30:21
And the head teacher said to me,
30:23
could you work on this?
30:24
Could you think of ways of retaining our teachers?
30:26
Find out what the issues are.
30:27
So we talked about exit interviews,
30:30
looking at what the staff really wanted
30:31
that would make them want to stay in our school.
30:35
So that was my work.
30:39
And I surveyed the staff and I surveyed the parents,
30:43
I surveyed the children,
30:44
and I just looked at the whole school,
30:46
all our stakeholders, I looked at all of them
30:48
and worked out what was it they wanted
30:50
and worked on that.
30:51
And the teachers were very clear
30:55
that they wanted to be trusted.
30:57
They didn't want to be micromanaged.
30:59
They're professionals, they're trained.
31:01
That's what they wanted.
31:03
So that was shared.
31:06
And then with the parents, it was very much,
31:09
they have needs that were not being addressed.
31:12
So we looked at ways of helping them
31:14
and that came down to, again, building relationships.
31:17
So if they needed food, we'd refer them to food banks.
31:20
If they needed help with an MP
31:23
because they couldn't write English,
31:25
we'd help them with that.
31:26
So it was very practical ways of supporting our families
31:30
to ensure that their children were in school every day
31:32
and ensure that their children had had sleep
31:34
and that they had enough food to eat.
31:39
So I worked on that and then decided
31:42
about how we were going to support them
31:45
and then decided about three or four years in
31:48
to go for an award.
31:50
And that was really pivotal in the journey
31:52
because you have all these key performance indicators
31:54
you have to satisfy to get this wellbeing award.
31:57
And it was really hard work the first time I did it.
32:01
And it meant I had to engage with the local authority
32:05
and I had to find out,
32:06
I had to get linked up with camps
32:09
and different organisations
32:11
I didn't even know existed in Newham.
32:14
And I've still got all those links now.
32:16
So it was a big project of work
32:19
that was undertaken and was very time consuming
32:22
but very, very worthwhile.
32:23
Because I think once you have those systems in place
32:26
and you start to change the culture
32:28
and also you de-stigmatise mental health
32:31
with your community
32:32
through coffee mornings and education,
32:35
it has a massive difference.
32:38
The award lasted for approximately four years
32:40
and then I had to go for the re-verification
32:42
which was a lot quicker
32:43
because everything was still in place.
32:45
And then at that point,
32:46
you can decide, actually, we don't need that.
32:47
So when the pastoral workers, unfortunately,
32:50
well, some of them actually became high-level TAs
32:53
which was fantastic.
32:54
Some of them retired, we didn't re-recruit.
33:00
Your systems are so embedded
33:02
that it kind of carries itself.
33:03
So the questionnaires that we do,
33:06
we were very fortunate
33:07
that we have somebody from CAMS working with us
33:10
over one day a week.
33:11
So she's called an Educational Mental Health Practitioner,
33:14
an EM, Education Mental Health Practitioner.
33:17
Yeah, you know, she's fantastic.
33:19
Also an OT is attached to our school.
33:22
So all that helps as well.
33:25
Training up children to be wellbeing champions
33:29
is also really effective.
33:32
Yeah.
33:32
So yeah, that's kind of the route it took.
33:36
That's what you've done, essentially.
33:40
I know that when you've been talking about this,
33:43
you've talked about almost going beyond education
33:50
into, I guess, wider social support.
33:53
I suppose my question is,
33:55
and this is the question of the show, really,
33:58
the title of what we've been talking about,
33:59
but how far should schools go
34:03
in addressing needs that sit outside education?
34:06
That's a good question.
34:11
And I suppose it's just kind of happened in our school
34:13
because we have a community hub,
34:16
which is a very useful building that has an external gate.
34:20
So providers can use it.
34:22
So for example, in the library,
34:23
you have family navigators
34:25
that advise parents on benefits and jobs
34:28
and, you know, things like that.
34:31
So at the moment, we haven't got them coming in,
34:34
but the last term, I think the term before,
34:37
on a Tuesday morning, they'd come into our hub
34:39
and they would be there.
34:40
So it was very useful.
34:41
The parents didn't have to go to the library.
34:43
It was, you know, they dropped the children off,
34:45
go and see the family navigator for support.
34:48
We have food, pantry, every Friday afternoon.
34:52
We used to have a toy library
34:55
that was great for parents as well.
34:58
It's working out what your community needs
35:01
and working out what your parent needs.
35:02
So we do these community breakfasts
35:04
and they're really good chatting to parents
35:06
and finding out what they're going through,
35:08
what they need.
35:10
Getting back to your question,
35:11
I think it just depends on how far you can,
35:14
your capacity.
35:17
It's very time-consuming,
35:19
all these kind of additionality,
35:22
but I think if you see-
35:23
Is it time-consuming for,
35:25
is it time-consuming for everyone involved
35:27
or is it time-consuming for leaders
35:30
or is it, you know-
35:31
The allocated people.
35:32
So the people, so yeah,
35:34
the people that are allocated
35:35
to doing this kind of thing.
35:36
Sure.
35:39
I advertise a lot.
35:40
I put a lot of links up
35:42
and things on our Facebook page,
35:43
our school Facebook page
35:44
and there's a lot that goes on there.
35:46
Every day I'm putting things on there
35:47
of things that are going on in the community.
35:50
I think what motivates and drives me to do it,
35:53
not just me, but other stuff in our school
35:56
is to see the benefits in the children.
35:59
And the family,
36:00
to see that you might have had a child
36:01
that didn't want,
36:02
was a school refuser,
36:03
didn't want to come to school.
36:04
But because of what you've put in place,
36:06
whatever that is,
36:08
they now come in with a massive smile on their face.
36:11
It's that that motivates us to do what we're doing.
36:15
And I know that some people would say it's too much.
36:17
It really is too much,
36:18
but I think the benefits that way.
36:22
Do you think that,
36:22
I mean, you mentioned the food pantry,
36:26
every Friday,
36:26
the food pantry every Friday that you run.
36:32
And there'll be some people out there who'll say,
36:34
you know, if schools start providing food regularly,
36:37
does it risk normalising a situation
36:39
where the state is stepping in permanently
36:44
instead of, you know,
36:45
fixing issues as to why families
36:47
either can't afford food
36:49
or whatever else is going on?
36:50
Yeah.
36:51
Well, it's not actually run by us.
36:53
So they use our community hub
36:56
and it's a charity that use it
36:57
and they get funding for that.
36:59
And the lady that runs it,
37:01
it's been very, you know,
37:03
determined in the fact that
37:04
she's not promoting learned helplessness.
37:06
That's not what it's about.
37:08
They have to pay a fee and it's not much.
37:10
It might be 10 or 20 pound a month.
37:12
And with that amount,
37:14
they can take a certain amount,
37:15
but it's quite a lot.
37:16
So it's, she's added that element in there,
37:19
which I think is very wise
37:20
because in this whole journey,
37:23
you will find a few people
37:25
taking the mick out of what you're doing
37:26
and they clearly are not in need,
37:28
but they're exploiting the situation.
37:32
Sure.
37:36
I guess not necessarily
37:38
fixing on the issue of food,
37:39
but just in general,
37:42
you know, you've pretty much answered this.
37:44
I guess it's, you know,
37:46
the concerns there are around,
37:48
you know, once schools take this stuff on,
37:51
yeah.
37:52
Does it become more of an expectation
37:55
rather than emergency support?
37:59
Well, we do.
38:00
Yeah. I hear what you're saying.
38:02
We do signpost a lot.
38:04
So there are fantastic charities in Newham.
38:09
I mean, the more I find out about Newham,
38:11
the more I feel kind of blessed
38:12
in a way to work for Newham
38:14
because I don't, I don't live in Newham.
38:16
I live in a completely different area
38:18
and I've looked into that area
38:20
and they haven't got,
38:22
so if there was somebody
38:23
who was struggling in the area where I live now,
38:26
they would not have access
38:27
to all these resources.
38:28
So we are incredibly fortunate in Newham,
38:31
but you just hope that it will keep going,
38:37
but you will also hope that people somehow,
38:39
you know, find themselves
38:42
in a better situation as well.
38:44
I suppose you just do what you can
38:46
while you can.
38:48
Yeah. Got you.
38:49
Yeah.
38:52
Okay. You also talk in there
38:55
about parenting programmes
38:57
and sort of working with families.
39:02
What do you do in that regard?
39:04
Because you've sort of touched on that a bit.
39:06
Yeah. We ran some health literacy sessions,
39:11
which was from students from a university.
39:13
So I suppose I just grab whatever I see
39:15
when I'm on the internet
39:18
or I hear, you know,
39:19
I go to different network meetings
39:20
and I'm always listening out.
39:22
I'm just on it.
39:23
Anything I hear,
39:24
I'm straight on the email.
39:25
Yeah, we'll take it.
39:26
We'll take it.
39:26
We'll take it.
39:27
I'm very quick and make the most of that.
39:31
Sen's, the leader of the Sen Co
39:34
is really good at our school.
39:36
So she runs most fantastic coffee mornings
39:39
and training sessions as well for the parents.
39:42
We have done sessions around,
39:45
I talked about health literacy, food.
39:47
We did, I can't remember what it was called.
39:50
That was a cooking workshop
39:52
that we got externals in.
39:54
And everything I'm talking about is free.
39:56
We don't pay for these things.
39:58
So I suppose if you can take the time
40:01
to go on your community,
40:03
even like on Facebook,
40:04
they have these community pages
40:05
linked to your area.
40:07
I go on there a lot
40:08
and I see what's available.
40:10
Yeah.
40:10
And there's a lot of funding out there as well.
40:14
The arts council, sports council,
40:17
all those places.
40:19
In Newham, healthy schools
40:20
is a really good resource for me.
40:22
So they come out with newsletters
40:24
and I'm sure that every council
40:26
would have healthy schools,
40:27
associations and things to get the award.
40:30
Yeah, yeah, sure.
40:30
And should be coming out with a lot of stuff.
40:32
And so as soon as I get that email,
40:33
I'm like, you know, going through it,
40:35
right, we'll have that, that, that, that, that.
40:37
Yeah.
40:39
Yeah. I mean, some people again would say
40:42
when it comes to the parental side,
40:45
you know, and I guess this is the thrust
40:47
of what you've written as well.
40:48
You know, there'll be some people out there say
40:51
parenting isn't something
40:52
that schools should be responsible for.
40:57
And then it risks sort of,
40:59
I guess, undermining parental authority as well,
41:02
you know, on the two sides to that, I guess.
41:05
I mean, do you think,
41:10
when you mentioned the nappies thing at the beginning,
41:12
I mean, do you think that it's gone too far?
41:16
Do you think, I mean, what role do you think that school,
41:19
I guess it comes down to what you see
41:20
the role of a school is, I guess.
41:24
Yeah.
41:25
What it should be.
41:26
Everyone's going to have a different view on that.
41:29
Yeah. I think it's just a win-win situation.
41:31
If you couldn't win the parents over
41:34
by building a relationship and building the trust,
41:37
at the end of the day,
41:38
you've got these children, hopefully for all those years,
41:41
if they start in nursery,
41:44
it's going to benefit everybody,
41:46
but it can take a bit of work initially
41:48
because if they don't trust you or,
41:51
and that's the power of having a very stable staff.
41:55
Yeah.
41:55
Because they've known you.
41:57
Yeah.
41:57
Most parents know you very, very well
41:59
and they know that you're stable.
42:00
They know that you're kind.
42:01
You know that you care.
42:03
Sure.
42:04
That you're non-judgmental.
42:05
I think if those things are in place,
42:07
it's so much easier for you.
42:09
But yeah, I get what you're saying.
42:11
I just think it's so important.
42:12
I just think education and advising them,
42:18
there is a better way.
42:19
Let's try it and see,
42:21
you know, I'm here to support you,
42:23
whatever you need.
42:24
I think that's where that power comes in
42:27
when you can, in terms,
42:28
I don't mean power in like a bad way,
42:29
but where if you can say to them,
42:32
what do you need?
42:34
And they say, I need this, this and this.
42:36
Okay, let's help you.
42:37
You build that bridge.
42:40
And it does work.
42:41
It is effective.
42:42
Yeah.
42:43
You'll have a couple
42:45
that it may be more of a challenge with,
42:46
but I think you just try your best.
42:50
Sure, sure.
42:51
Absolutely.
42:51
And it sounds like you've had great success
42:54
over the last few years
42:55
in everything that you've been doing.
42:57
So that's brilliant.
42:58
You also mentioned family instability,
43:01
and sort of trying to address that.
43:05
How'd you go about that?
43:07
So family instability,
43:09
I think it's referring to
43:11
the overcrowded housing is one thing.
43:15
Possibly abuse in the home.
43:21
Safeguarding issues.
43:25
So I, not just myself,
43:29
also our family liaison officer
43:31
will help write letters.
43:34
So I will write letters to MPs
43:36
if parents require that,
43:38
or if there's noise pollution,
43:41
I'll do a new and complaint to say,
43:43
you know, this is an issue.
43:47
Just trying to support them as much as possible,
43:49
but your hands are tied there
43:50
because often they're in housing,
43:53
which is completely not suitable.
43:54
So they'll show you photographs and videos
43:56
of the down path for you to come around
43:57
and look at it.
43:58
There's not much you can do there,
44:00
but you can try your best.
44:03
And most of them in rented accommodation.
44:06
A lot of our families are in rented accommodation.
44:08
Yeah, and a few of our families
44:10
are in emergency accommodation.
44:11
So you know that the children
44:13
may not be with you long,
44:14
and they often come with a lot of difficulties.
44:19
And, you know, they've been possibly moved around
44:22
and have seen some really awful things
44:24
and need CAM support and all that kind of thing.
44:27
And you just hope,
44:29
with all the things that you're doing,
44:30
that they will remain with you.
44:31
But it is only emergency housing,
44:33
which emergency housing can go on
44:35
for a couple of years.
44:37
You never know.
44:38
Yeah.
44:40
I mean, obviously your school is in Newham in London.
44:42
It's a very deprived area.
44:43
But do you think this is something that all schools,
44:47
I mean, you mentioned then
44:48
when we started talking about it,
44:49
you know, you went to this training
44:51
and you felt that,
44:52
you know, other schools weren't really aware.
44:54
They weren't really trying to do anything.
44:58
I mean, what is it that you,
45:00
you know, if you had a room of 100 school leaders in now,
45:04
at primary level,
45:06
from across the UK,
45:09
what is it you're saying should be happening?
45:12
Because that was sort of the thrust
45:13
of what you've written as well.
45:14
What are you saying to them
45:15
that they should be doing?
45:18
As time-consuming as it is, Bill, relationships.
45:21
And that would just start
45:22
with standing on the gate every morning,
45:24
which I'm sure the majority of leaders do anyway.
45:28
Checking in with parents,
45:31
welcoming children every morning.
45:34
I have a work mobile phone
45:36
and I share that number with absolutely everybody.
45:38
So they all have my number.
45:40
They all know my name is Rachel.
45:42
You know, I'm just trying to,
45:43
I don't want formalities around it
45:45
because I think that's where the wall can come up
45:48
and they may not feel confident telling me things.
45:51
And it's not just me.
45:52
It's other people in the school as well.
45:54
So I suppose it's that,
45:57
I want them to tell us if there's an issue.
46:00
So building relationships, which I keep saying,
46:03
but it's, and I really, you know,
46:05
myself and the head have said for quite a few years,
46:07
our behaviour policy
46:08
should be called a relationships policy
46:10
because that's what it comes down to
46:11
at the end of the day.
46:14
Building trust, which takes time.
46:17
And the other thing is, you know,
46:18
the head teacher's been there almost 25 years.
46:20
I've been there almost 21 years.
46:24
It makes a difference.
46:25
I think if I was to go into a school fresh
46:28
as a new leader, it would be hard.
46:30
It would take me years and years and years.
46:33
So it's easier.
46:34
Why do you think that is?
46:35
Because you build up the credibility.
46:36
It takes a lot of time.
46:38
Yeah.
46:39
A lot of time to build that up.
46:40
It took me in my schools that I felt
46:43
that I've done well in.
46:45
Yeah.
46:46
It's taken me a little bit of time
46:49
to get going, to build something.
46:51
Yeah.
46:52
You can't just walk in a place and,
46:53
well, you can try, you can try.
46:56
But it's really difficult to go in somewhere old
46:59
and just try and do stuff
47:01
that you know might be the right thing.
47:03
But you've got to,
47:06
I mean, you mentioned this word relationships.
47:08
I'm not against the word relationships.
47:11
No one's going to disagree when someone says
47:13
relationships absolutely are the thing.
47:15
Everyone nods and goes, absolutely.
47:17
But it's a little bit more nuanced for me than,
47:20
this is where I sort of find the conversation
47:23
around relationships.
47:24
Because you said a minute ago about,
47:26
and I actually, I don't mind what you said.
47:29
You said the behaviour policy
47:31
should be the relationships policy.
47:34
But do you need the behaviour to be right
47:39
to be able to build the relationships that you want?
47:43
Yeah.
47:44
I suppose because it goes back to that phrase of
47:49
every behaviour is communication.
47:51
So all, sorry, is that right?
47:53
Yeah.
47:53
All communicate.
47:54
Yeah.
47:58
And I have a psychology background
48:00
and I definitely believe that.
48:02
I think even as adults,
48:04
our body language,
48:05
the way we talk to somebody,
48:07
we're trying to communicate something
48:08
through our behaviour
48:10
and the way that we are interacting with people.
48:14
So you mentioned during COVID,
48:16
well, not gone through a change,
48:17
but you'd not,
48:19
I was going to say seen the light there.
48:21
It sounded really weird.
48:23
But you've gone through a change during COVID
48:26
and developed a sort of philosophy
48:28
on what you're doing.
48:28
Yeah, absolutely.
48:29
Tell us a bit more about that.
48:30
Yeah.
48:31
So that's on our school website.
48:33
So we could see that a lot of our families
48:35
were going through some very,
48:36
what we call big emotions.
48:39
Obviously we had to down level it for primary.
48:42
And so myself and another colleague
48:45
worked on a programme of work
48:46
called Big Emotions.
48:47
And we put together a book
48:49
with a lot of health advising and videos
48:53
because we would,
48:54
like all other schools,
48:55
we were doing the weekly check-ins
48:56
with our vulnerable families,
48:58
the bi-weekly check-ins
48:59
with our less vulnerable families.
49:01
And we were finding out some things
49:03
that were going on in the home.
49:04
And we were, you know,
49:05
I was doing things like,
49:06
I was phoning out one particular family,
49:07
reminding them to go out
49:08
for that hours walk every day.
49:10
Because if I didn't do that,
49:12
they wouldn't leave the house for weeks on end.
49:15
They were too scared to leave the flat.
49:19
So through all of that,
49:21
we realised,
49:23
well, I think the challenges
49:24
obviously increased over the lockdown
49:26
because it was so hard for all of us.
49:28
But we put together this piece of work.
49:32
It's all linked to the Inside Out characters.
49:34
I don't know if you know that film,
49:36
the Pixar film.
49:37
It's really good for younger children.
49:39
And so it was all related to those characters.
49:41
And the parents really loved that.
49:43
They really appreciated it.
49:44
The children liked it as well.
49:46
And then it's still in our school now,
49:48
these books,
49:49
these behaviour thermometers.
49:52
Just owning our big emotions,
49:54
knowing that when we're angry,
49:56
it's not a crime.
49:59
We all feel angry at some point.
50:00
We all feel rage.
50:02
We all feel jealousy at some point.
50:03
We all feel sad.
50:05
And owning our emotions
50:07
and knowing how we work through them.
50:09
So that work was great.
50:10
And it continues in our school.
50:12
And so children can very clearly articulate
50:14
their feelings without feeling shame.
50:16
Whereas before, I'm not really sure
50:18
that we'd thought of it in that way.
50:20
And our parents as well,
50:23
you know, will come and tell us,
50:24
I'm feeling really stressed at the moment
50:26
because of this situation.
50:28
So it's just opening up the communication
50:31
so that we can all share with each other.
50:35
What does that mean to you,
50:38
that phrase that you make?
50:39
I mean, we can pick out,
50:40
we can change the words in it,
50:41
but it was like,
50:41
all behaviour is communication.
50:43
You know, I know that in education
50:45
at the moment,
50:45
there's a big drive around
50:47
sort of unmet needs and,
50:49
you know, and trauma-informed practice, etc.
50:53
I mean, what do these things mean to you?
50:55
What does that mean to you
50:57
on a day-to-day basis?
50:59
How is that a philosophy?
51:00
I mean, you mentioned books that you've read
51:02
and things that, you know,
51:03
people who've sort of inspired
51:05
what you've been thinking about it.
51:08
I'm just wondering what that means to you.
51:11
What does that mean in practice?
51:15
I think understanding your staff,
51:18
understanding your children,
51:19
understanding your parents,
51:20
where they're coming from,
51:21
what they're dealing with
51:22
and where you can supporting them.
51:24
So with our staff,
51:25
if they say they want their PPA on a certain day
51:28
because it will support them with,
51:30
you know, being at home or for an appointment
51:33
or whatever it is,
51:35
you trying your best to do that,
51:37
to meet them at that point of need.
51:42
The same with our children.
51:44
So we have had the trauma-informed practice training.
51:49
Also the ACEs training is regularly done with our staff
51:53
and getting them to remember
51:56
that they have to be quite vigilant with their children,
51:58
look out for changes in their behaviour,
52:00
their moods,
52:03
how they're interacting with others.
52:05
And we do have these very simple diagnostic tools
52:09
that we use called pupil voice,
52:11
where we ask the pupils,
52:12
how are you feeling at your home, in school?
52:14
What are your hobbies?
52:15
Who are your friends?
52:16
And then they rate how they're feeling
52:18
at that time out of 10.
52:20
And we ask them,
52:21
you know, got certain questions that we asked them
52:24
and they can be quite telling.
52:25
And from that, we know where we go.
52:27
So we have a flow chart of supports.
52:30
We know where to go with that
52:31
in terms of is it a referral to CAMHS
52:33
or can we deal with this within the school?
52:38
Do you think that, again,
52:39
there'll be some people who sit there and say,
52:41
well, sometimes children just need to be told
52:44
to get on with it,
52:45
as in, you know,
52:48
come on guys, let's just do this.
52:51
Let's fight through the sort of discomfort
52:54
and let's get to the other side.
52:57
Do you think that's a philosophy
52:59
that sits with what you're saying?
53:01
Or do you think that that is a philosophy
53:02
that should be binned and consigned to the past?
53:05
No, I think sometimes there is a place for that.
53:07
When you know the child,
53:10
as a teacher, you'd know the child
53:11
and you'd know that you're pretty sure
53:15
there's nothing wrong,
53:16
that they haven't had an issue at home
53:19
or an issue in school.
53:20
And you would have to tell them that.
53:22
But I think if you saw it repeated,
53:23
you would question,
53:24
are they getting enough sleep?
53:25
Are they gaming at night?
53:26
Have they had breakfast this morning?
53:28
Is there an issue with a friend?
53:31
Are they being bullied?
53:32
That kind of thing,
53:33
you'd perhaps think about it more.
53:34
But if it was a one-off,
53:35
yeah, I would definitely say
53:36
that you would respond in that way.
53:39
Yeah.
53:41
You mentioned, I mean,
53:41
one of the things you've talked a lot about,
53:43
I'm getting a real clear picture of,
53:46
you know, what you're doing
53:48
and what you're trying to do.
53:49
Do you think that if a school,
53:52
if the average school tries to do
53:54
what you're saying they should do,
53:56
do you think that in some ways
53:58
takes away or dilutes
54:00
from the sort of academic education?
54:05
If schools take on too much
54:07
of the social stuff,
54:09
they become less about,
54:11
you know, there'll be people out there
54:13
say the biggest removal of barriers
54:16
is sort of learning
54:22
the academic subjects,
54:24
or even just not the academic subjects,
54:25
just learning full stop,
54:27
is learning in school,
54:28
learning things in school
54:29
and getting qualifications
54:31
and moving on, you know, from that.
54:34
There'll be people out there will say
54:37
whatever you do,
54:38
however well-intentioned it is,
54:39
it's taking away from the core purpose.
54:44
And again, this is where you're going
54:45
to have differences of opinion
54:47
because there'll be some people
54:48
who will be on the opposite side saying
54:50
the core purpose of school
54:52
is for the whole child and their family
54:54
and their extended family.
54:56
And every, but the other people saying,
54:59
the core purpose of school
55:00
is to provide education
55:02
within the school model.
55:06
I think it would be a very miserable place.
55:09
I really do.
55:09
I don't necessarily think
55:11
you would have so many smiling faces.
55:13
I do feel that our school is a happy place.
55:15
When people come and visit,
55:16
they do say it feels happy,
55:20
which is incredibly important.
55:23
And I think if you need,
55:24
if you want all of your staff
55:27
and all of your children to thrive,
55:29
you have got to consider how they feel
55:32
and how you can make sure
55:33
that you are supporting in areas where you can.
55:37
And when I look at the World Health Organization
55:40
definition of mental health,
55:42
it talks about thriving
55:44
and that's definitely what we want.
55:46
So I think it's where your limit is.
55:50
I do know there are some schools
55:52
like what you're talking about,
55:53
very academically driven
55:55
and they don't really address,
55:56
they don't think that's their problem.
55:58
And I've seen them myself.
56:00
I used to be a governor in one
56:01
and the children walk around like robots
56:05
and that's not what we want.
56:06
We want children to feel
56:07
like this is their safe place.
56:09
They're happy.
56:10
They want to come to school,
56:12
increase attendance.
56:14
What do you think those schools
56:16
in your view are getting wrong?
56:20
How is that, you know,
56:22
you mentioned that like robots,
56:23
you've mentioned it's saying
56:26
it's all academic focused
56:27
or it's all whatever focused on that.
56:29
I mean, what in your view
56:31
are they getting wrong?
56:32
That they're not,
56:33
they're not looking at the whole child,
56:36
not just the whole child.
56:37
They're not considering
56:38
where that child is living
56:39
and who they're living with
56:41
and what they're going through.
56:44
And I know I'm not trying to say
56:45
that we're the only school that's doing it
56:47
because I'm absolutely sure
56:48
that there are schools out there
56:49
doing it better than us.
56:50
So I'm not, I'm not saying that at all,
56:52
but I know that you're right.
56:54
There are some schools that feel,
56:55
no, they're here to be educated,
56:57
get their outcomes and go.
57:01
Perhaps I'm just a big old softie,
57:03
but I think I want children to be happy,
57:06
you know, when they come to school.
57:07
Listen, Rachel, even if I,
57:09
even if I did think you were a big softie,
57:11
the fact that you've done 21 years
57:13
or whatever it is teaching in Newham,
57:15
pretty much I think disqualifies
57:17
a heck of a lot of people
57:18
to have an opinion,
57:19
if I'm completely honest.
57:22
Whether someone agrees
57:23
or disagrees with anything,
57:26
you've seen it, you've done it,
57:27
you've got the t-shirt.
57:28
And I think any teacher out there,
57:30
any teaching professional watching this
57:32
will tip the hat to you
57:33
and say anybody who's still in there
57:36
doing it after an amount of time
57:37
that you have,
57:38
and your head teacher as well.
57:40
I think you've got a real right to say,
57:42
no, this is what we're going to do.
57:44
This is how we're going to do it,
57:45
it's our philosophy.
57:46
That's just my opinion, by the way.
57:47
That's not the opinion of TTR.
57:49
There might be other people in TTR
57:50
saying, no, hang on a minute,
57:51
it doesn't matter.
57:52
I do think, you know,
57:53
there's a lot of credibility there.
57:55
And I think that matters.
57:57
We're very fortunate with our teachers.
57:58
They're so dedicated and committed
58:00
and they understand the community as well.
58:03
So that is obviously very supportive.
58:05
And I suppose if the outcomes
58:06
were not amazing,
58:08
you could say,
58:08
are we diluting the education
58:10
because of the fact
58:10
that we're putting all this extra in?
58:14
But because the outcomes are fine,
58:17
they're strong, they're good,
58:18
then it kind of works.
58:20
And yeah.
58:21
I think sometimes though,
58:23
if the child has a need,
58:25
this is the only bit really
58:26
of what you said where I,
58:27
you know, I would ask that.
58:29
If the child's got a need,
58:31
sometimes, you know,
58:35
there'll be times when either
58:36
they need to figure it out
58:37
and battle through themselves
58:39
to find an answer
58:41
or their parents need to
58:44
support in that process.
58:46
And there'll be many out there
58:48
who say, yeah,
58:48
but if something's not working,
58:51
then the school needs to come in
58:53
and they need to be,
58:54
not be the parent,
58:55
but they need to do X, Y, Z.
58:58
And, you know,
58:58
there'll always be an element of that.
58:59
There's always going to be that.
59:01
I guess it's how far,
59:03
you know, where you are.
59:05
I mean, the question I would ask is
59:06
for you is what shouldn't be?
59:11
What shouldn't schools
59:12
be responsible for?
59:14
No matter how great the need,
59:16
what shouldn't schools
59:17
be responsible for?
59:18
Well, if it's a safeguarding issue,
59:20
you'd obviously put that onto,
59:22
you know, social services.
59:24
If it's a criminal issue,
59:25
you'd put it onto the police.
59:26
So, but apart from that,
59:29
I mean, if I've made
59:30
dentist appointments for families,
59:32
I have, you know,
59:34
the staff in our school
59:36
have done all sorts of things to,
59:38
well, you see there's a need
59:39
and you know it's going to support the child.
59:40
You just do it.
59:41
Give us like your five things
59:43
that your three things
59:45
that you've done
59:47
for a family or whatever.
59:48
But people will be like,
59:49
oh my God.
59:51
It sounds like I'm showing off.
59:53
Rachel's like superwoman.
59:55
No, I'm far from a superwoman.
59:59
In a holiday,
1:00:00
I had a text from a parent
1:00:01
on the Saturday morning.
1:00:02
I'd just come out the gym
1:00:04
saying I'm homeless,
1:00:06
which, you know, gosh,
1:00:07
it's anyone would do this
1:00:08
for goodness sake.
1:00:09
I need emergency payment
1:00:11
for housing.
1:00:12
And I didn't know
1:00:12
she was telling the truth,
1:00:13
to be honest,
1:00:14
but it turns out she was.
1:00:16
I need £10 for the Wi-Fi,
1:00:18
£10 for each room key
1:00:20
because you need two different rooms
1:00:21
in this.
1:00:23
I think it was like an emergency
1:00:24
flat hostel kind of situation.
1:00:26
And I need £10 for the washing machine.
1:00:30
I'm thinking, really?
1:00:32
Really?
1:00:32
You need all that?
1:00:33
OK, so, oh, the Wi-Fi.
1:00:36
Did I say Wi-Fi?
1:00:37
Yeah.
1:00:38
Yeah, Wi-Fi, yeah.
1:00:39
So I checked with my head teacher
1:00:43
because I thought,
1:00:44
gosh, is it all right to do this?
1:00:46
You know, and it was fine.
1:00:47
He's, you know, fantastic.
1:00:49
He said, yeah, just do it.
1:00:50
So I paid for that.
1:00:51
But to me, that's like somebody
1:00:53
in a dire situation,
1:00:54
like you just do it for anyone,
1:00:55
wouldn't you, really?
1:00:56
If you thought they were
1:00:58
probably telling the truth.
1:01:00
So that's, well,
1:01:02
dentist appointments.
1:01:04
I've got a current situation
1:01:06
with extreme noise pollution.
1:01:07
I'm constantly emailing you,
1:01:09
emailing the police,
1:01:10
emailing the MP.
1:01:12
They're not even in our area,
1:01:13
so it's a different MP
1:01:14
to where our school falls under.
1:01:17
Noise pollution?
1:01:18
What does that mean?
1:01:19
Oh, like their neighbours
1:01:20
create very loud music.
1:01:22
Isn't that just London?
1:01:25
It's like party music
1:01:26
till two o'clock in the morning
1:01:27
and the child has to come to school.
1:01:29
So we need the child in school.
1:01:31
So we need to sort
1:01:31
the noise pollution out.
1:01:33
Anyway, that's been going on for months
1:01:34
and it still is not sorted.
1:01:37
Chicken box in the holiday.
1:01:39
So I had to get our amazing
1:01:40
food pantry lady,
1:01:42
I won't say her name,
1:01:42
but she is fantastic,
1:01:44
round with food.
1:01:46
In the holiday, every day,
1:01:47
I think she was going around
1:01:48
to deliver food to this family
1:01:49
that all had chicken pox
1:01:51
and apparently couldn't leave the house.
1:01:53
I can't remember.
1:01:53
There's been a lot.
1:01:54
But I suppose when you really care,
1:01:58
you know, like we all do,
1:01:59
but my school's got
1:02:01
a very special place in my heart.
1:02:03
My own children,
1:02:04
one daughter went there
1:02:05
and is now at secondary
1:02:06
and my second child is in year six,
1:02:09
about to go to secondary.
1:02:10
So, you know, I'm very invested,
1:02:13
not just, you know, my career.
1:02:16
I think it's one of them
1:02:17
if you feel part,
1:02:18
I mean, my current school
1:02:19
or I currently work,
1:02:20
I do feel sometimes
1:02:23
when you just work in a school,
1:02:24
you feel a level of comfort within.
1:02:27
It's not about,
1:02:28
it's not like a class thing.
1:02:29
It's not a, it's not a,
1:02:31
it's not even a,
1:02:33
just some schools,
1:02:34
you as a teacher, you just fit.
1:02:36
Yeah, other schools,
1:02:37
you do not fit.
1:02:39
And you can't put your finger on why.
1:02:41
You go there, you don't feel part of it.
1:02:44
You don't feel comfortable.
1:02:45
I've worked in, I've worked in at least one
1:02:48
where I've gone,
1:02:49
why don't I, why aren't I feeling this?
1:02:51
I'm just not feeling,
1:02:53
you know, the teaching.
1:02:54
I love teaching.
1:02:55
I'm not feeling it here.
1:02:57
I'm not feeling the way the building is.
1:02:59
I'm not feeling when I walk through,
1:03:01
I'm not feeling comfortable.
1:03:02
I'm not feeling, I'm not feeling at ease.
1:03:06
I'm not feeling humor.
1:03:07
I'm not feeling any enjoyment.
1:03:09
And it's not even about policies
1:03:11
because you look at the policies
1:03:13
and you go, could I have any policies?
1:03:15
Whereas there's other schools
1:03:17
like the one I'm in at the moment
1:03:19
and others where you just,
1:03:22
almost from the word go,
1:03:24
you feel part of it on some level.
1:03:27
Yeah, absolutely.
1:03:29
And you also feel like you want to invest in it.
1:03:32
Like you want to invest energy,
1:03:35
resources, time and commitment
1:03:37
to actually helping that community
1:03:42
because you like them.
1:03:44
You've just helped it up.
1:03:45
It's not as simple as like,
1:03:46
but you just feel part of it
1:03:48
and you feel, you know,
1:03:52
like you want to go above and beyond for that.
1:03:57
And I think teachers get that.
1:03:59
Now, the issue with that is
1:04:01
when you have that feeling,
1:04:03
not everyone's like you, Rachel.
1:04:05
I know.
1:04:06
And also not everyone can cope with it
1:04:09
because if we set an expectation
1:04:11
where teachers are giving out phone numbers
1:04:13
and teachers are going to houses
1:04:15
and dealing with this
1:04:15
and writing, doing dentist appointments
1:04:17
and writing this.
1:04:18
We're in the middle of,
1:04:19
you've probably read the complaints crisis.
1:04:21
Yes, AI.
1:04:23
AI, have you had any of them?
1:04:25
AI complaints?
1:04:26
Yeah, they're hard work.
1:04:28
So I'm presuming you're getting an AI complaint
1:04:31
from a parent,
1:04:32
then you're answering
1:04:33
and they're sending an AI one back.
1:04:35
And how quickly are you getting that one back?
1:04:39
Very quickly.
1:04:40
Yeah.
1:04:42
I mean, what's your record
1:04:43
on how many times you've had a conversation
1:04:45
in sort of AI jargon?
1:04:47
Are you using AI?
1:04:49
Are you resorting to AI?
1:04:50
I do occasionally,
1:04:51
but I try and make it more like
1:04:53
I put in then, you know, the search,
1:04:56
you know, the bit at the bottom where you write,
1:04:58
I put, make this less AI.
1:05:01
So it's AI, but make it less AI.
1:05:04
And then I will adapt it, obviously.
1:05:06
I'll read through it
1:05:06
because it makes some awful errors sometimes.
1:05:09
Do you think like,
1:05:09
are you getting caught out there by the AI more,
1:05:13
or are you just finding that to be a distraction?
1:05:15
Like you went as a complaint,
1:05:16
are you going, we're getting caught out?
1:05:18
We don't get too many complaints
1:05:20
and we do have,
1:05:23
our pupil role can go up to 952.
1:05:26
So you see, it's quite a big school.
1:05:27
So therefore we could have a lot of complaints.
1:05:30
And I think the reason why we buffer it is
1:05:33
because we're on the school gate.
1:05:34
So often if parents have got a gripe or a problem,
1:05:37
they'll talk to a leader on a gate.
1:05:39
We have quite, I think we have seven gates around our school
1:05:41
and every gate has got somebody standing on it.
1:05:44
And we try and deal with complaints as quickly as possible
1:05:47
to kind of shut them down,
1:05:49
deal with them, apologise if we need to apologise,
1:05:51
change what we're doing.
1:05:52
We're very quick.
1:05:55
And then if they email in,
1:05:57
we'll deal with that quickly as well
1:05:58
because I think it can manifest and fester
1:06:01
when you don't respond quickly.
1:06:04
Everybody.
1:06:05
Sure.
1:06:06
Listen, Rachel, we've run out of time.
1:06:08
It's been really good conversation.
1:06:10
I just want to again, shout out to Hachette Learning and AQA
1:06:12
who are the supporters on the show this evening.
1:06:15
Please visit them, Hachette Learning
1:06:17
on the Hachette Learning website.
1:06:18
Get yourself some CPD books, formerly known as Johncat.
1:06:21
So head over there, check them out.
1:06:23
And of course AQA, who at the moment are encouraging you
1:06:26
to become an examiner this summer.
1:06:27
It's flexible, it's paid work, it's amazing CPD.
1:06:31
So check it out on the AQA website
1:06:32
and just hit the apply link on the AQA website
1:06:36
to become an examiner.
1:06:38
So yeah, thank you so much to Hachette and AQA.
1:06:40
And Rachel, thank you so much to yourself
1:06:43
for spending some time with us.
1:06:44
It's been a really good conversation.
1:06:46
You want to find out more and talk to Rachel anymore
1:06:48
about what we've discussed in terms of the central issue,
1:06:52
which is what schools should be doing
1:06:54
or what schools can be doing
1:06:55
to address needs that sit outside education.
1:06:59
Then you can contact the Central Park Primary.
1:07:02
Rachel, is that right?
1:07:04
Yeah.
1:07:04
And they can just Google it, check out the website,
1:07:06
send an email through there.
1:07:07
And Rachel, I'm sure we'll pick it up.
1:07:09
And so thanks very much, Rachel.
1:07:11
And we'll be back in TTR in about 35 minutes
1:07:16
discussing a Telegraph article that came out this week
1:07:20
about behavior in schools.
1:07:22
And I'm sure it's gonna be,
1:07:23
I'm sure it'll be an interesting chat
1:07:25
on the points of view panel.
1:07:26
So Rachel, thank you ever so much.
1:07:29
And we'll speak to you again soon.
1:07:31
Bye.
1:07:31
Yeah, thank you.
1:07:35
I'm a real leadership geek.
1:07:37
Honestly, I've spent my whole career reading books
1:07:39
and chatting to people.
1:07:40
I just found the whole thing and the announce.
1:07:59
Next time on Teachers Talk Radio.