Latest / Skin Anarchy / E.386: The Clean Beauty Movement Has Been Around Longer Than We Realize, Ft. pai Skincare

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E.386: The Clean Beauty Movement Has Been Around Longer Than We Realize, Ft. pai Skincare · Skin Anarchy

• 0:00
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• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: Hi guys, one thing about your anarchy another amazing brand with us today.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: I have been really, you know, eyeing this brand for a long time, actually.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: I noticed them, you know, a while back.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then I was lucky enough and fortunate enough to have them reach out.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to the founder of Pi Skincare, Sarah Brown.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the show, Sarah.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited to be hosting you.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, sir.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Pleasure to be here.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's the pleasure.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's truly mine.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: I really, really love your brand and I can't wait to dive into it, but I really want to learn about how you uh conceptualized it, how it all began, if you could um kind of take us on that journey.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, how long have you got?
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that cast your mind quite a way back because actually we've been going a lot longer than many people realise.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and before, really, the word clean was even in our vernacular, and and when sustainability was really, you know, just a concept.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, so I started this business back in sort of 2007, 2008, and I started it not because I came from this industry at all, nor was I um a former business owner, and nor was I a chemist, um, but I came at it as a very frustrated um consumer.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I had and have a condition called chronic uh tacaria.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, for those listeners out there who know it, they will know the frustration of living with this skin condition, and it's very misunderstood and not often talked about, but mine uh condition onset very, very suddenly.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: And really, it was my experience trying to live with it, trying to manage it, trying to navigate a beauty industry I didn't know or understand, in particular ingredient lists, and having to unpick them and work out what was in the bottle and what I could and couldn't tolerate was a big part of it.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that's how the the brand sort of first came into being.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: And what started as you know, from a position of real frustration became something magical and really positive.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: I started to understand ingredients and and it took me down this wonderful journey into natural and then organic and and really understanding the remedial properties of plants, I guess.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I mean it shows, you know, I I love that you you told us that, Sarah, because I think that all of the really wonderful, clean, truly what I would consider to be clean brands, clean beauty, how are you on a term it, you know, um, they really start with this really deep understanding from the founders and for the natural product you're using.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't just come from this idea of, okay, well, I'm gonna use organic eucalyptus and then all of a sudden, bam, I'm a clean brand.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's not like that.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's from this like very interesting place, which is a place of like a very uh well-researched approach to fixing a problem.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so I really love that you started us off that way.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I really want to focus on that because the line is absolutely wonderful.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, as I said in the beginning, I've been eyeing you guys for a long time.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but I I really enjoy it because it is, I think, something that everyone can use and everyone can really kind of blend into their routine.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I really want you to share with us the things that you discovered in the national products and the, you know, in the clean beauty um, you know, I guess arena that really helps you craft what you wanted to make and what you needed for your for your health.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and and you know, thanks, thanks for saying all that.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the other thing is is that it I really um I think what's been really key to Pi and and and our success is that we really understand our customer too.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not just understanding ingredients, it's really understanding what it's like to live with skin that's a challenge and that's unpredictable, and really understanding how that feels.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that is really where how the brand evolved because you know what why did I start the business?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, why does Pi exist?
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, well, we're here to help others and and and help others who are in a real skin rut, like I was, and having to kind of navigate my own way out.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we're in we're here to do.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: And there's so much, I mean, you'll know better than anyone, there's just so much misinformation out there.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's just there's so many products, there's so many brands to wrap their head around.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's I found that very challenging all those years ago when you know, arguably the market was smaller, but yeah, so I think the kind of the whole premise was you know, help others get to a better and happier skin place.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you know, really I've always wanted to do that through you know extraordinarily high quality products that will work.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, my my choice was let's I want to do this um and I want to make the products ourselves.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that's sort of the key because uh I mean not everyone realizes that that we you know still we have our own custom-built production facility in London.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it's madness, London and London, and in London and London, London and UK, um, which is madness, but it is that connection to the product.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, kind of my thing was like we've got to make the products and we've got to and manage that as we scale because when you're dealing with these precious, beautiful ingredients that you've spent so much time sourcing and meticulously checking, um, you can't just then heat them to destruction, you've got to look after them.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I knew that we could only do that properly and really harness all of their properties by actually being very closely involved in the in the manufacturing process of it.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then I wanted to do create these great products to help people using nature.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, I I guess one of my biggest, one of the things I've learned, and I learned, you know, early on, but it's do you know what it's been such a challenge is to is to change perceptions of natural.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, the market you know has moved so much, which is great, and the clean categories you know exploded.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: And but I do think there's still this slight belief that natural can can be a bit of a compromise in terms of performance, and I think it's nonsense.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I often hear people say, well, you know, you can choose natural or you can choose science.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: I know you're not sure.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's an oxymoron.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's an oxymoron.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: That makes no sense to me.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: I don't believe in that at all.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's it's funny, yeah, it's funny you bring that up because you know, that's exactly where I was going with our conversation, too, is this idea of you know, people don't I think clean beauty has gotten a really bad reputation because of the brands that are not founded on the principles that I mentioned earlier, um, after you, you know, kind of started us off.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: And that is because you know, that's the whole greenwashing thing.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's the whole, you know, just saying something's clean and no one even knows what that means.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: And we went through that whole, you know, evolution as an industry.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, for me as a scientist, I look at natural ingredients as the most scientifically relevant uh, you know, components of any good brand, any good uh formula, because when you're synthesizing something in the lab, you know, you're mimicking nature, you're not creating it out of nowhere.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where I think consumers are headed, but they need to get there.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, for example, you know, you mentioned um chronic uh eutricaria, and this is for everyone listening, it's a it's uh classified as an autoimmune disease, but really what's going on here is that your body is just going haywire, you know, and I have Hashimoto's and I've shared that on the podcast.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: So any autoimmune disorder, it's a lot of chaos, and you have to be able to really calm down those very complex signaling processes and really treat that on a multi-level.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, it's not just cellular, it's molecular.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so if you're if you have a clean line and that is allowing for that to happen, it's calming down something like that, that is extremely good science.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: And that's something I think consumers are they're starting to understand, but they still have a hard time.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: They're like, How how can I believe that when it's derived from a plant?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm just like, well, every modern medicine that's ever changed humanity has been derived from a plant.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: So like you know, I could talk to you all afternoon, honestly.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um because this is this is music to my ears, and you're absolutely right, it's so beautifully put.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I think just even on a very but I think you're right, it's we have it's it it's quite hard to explain.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's quite hard for people to understand who don't come from this space.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you know, even on a very practical level, just the formulation process, you know, let's just talk about that.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: This idea that it's not scientific, you know, you know, it's the same in often the same cosmetic chemists using the same equipment, using having to do all of the same testing.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: And um the pro it's a scientific process of creator of creation.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: The only difference is you're using different raw materials in certain instances.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's and that's what we've got to correct in this this yeah, misconception, really.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, I think that that's interesting that you mentioned the the extraction process and stuff too.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I wanted to just ask, like, you know, because I think that it it's a huge answer, it's a very easy answer for my long question of that I always ask brands is that dosing idea, right?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like if you stick to, I feel like if you stick to nature and just normal plant extracts, you're coming as close as we can to keeping things in a reasonable amount in terms of what your the what the active components are.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like if you synthesize something in a lab and you make it to be extremely potent and it's put into a product, you have no way of modulating how that's going to react in the skin.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: However, natural products have something called an inbuilt uh, you know, uh dosing mechanism because they're actually, you know, it's mimicking plant life.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's life, you know, it comes from life.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: So um, you know, if that makes sense to everybody, I mean I'm in my head about it, but it it's very interesting to me that I think it's a more practical approach to dosing than synthetically creating molecules and then just, you know what I mean, bombarding them in a formulation.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and so I want to ask you, you know, I for example, I I was telling you before the the recording started that one of my favorite products in the line is the mist.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I love it because it's very calming, not just obviously for my skin, but just for my senses overall.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I noticed that you have lotus in it, which I love, the lotus flower.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a huge, I've always been a huge fan.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: And um, it's hyaluronic acid, and it's a very it's a simple mist, but it just does wonders for my skin.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I would love for you to maybe even talk to us about this product and the formulation.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, do you know?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what's interesting about this product is it was a reformulation that we really re-released this year.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think as brands and businesses, we need to do this more because reformulation is as important as new releases.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because otherwise, you know, if you if you know that you can improve an existing product with with maybe ingredients that weren't available when you first created that product, then that's what you should do rather than creating more and more new products.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's you know, that's always the temptation to do, but we said, no, do you know what it makes sense to just evolve what we have rather than create something new.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that's from a sustainability point of view, actually quite important.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, it's not, you know, when you relaunch a product, you know, in a 2.0 version, it's it's less exciting and it's it's harder to hype, but it's still what we should be doing.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: So so this was a product we'd had in the line for a really long time, but we just knew that classic thing where we're like actually there's if we formulated this today, we would do it slightly differently because there's there's we just know more and there's and there's different ingredients.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: So yes, it's got lotus in it, and it's actually lotus root.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: So it's actually an extraction almost of the kind of waters and juices within that root that have um the exact pH of skin actually, and it's just has this lovely calming act action to it.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: But we've also kind of doubled up with hyaluronic acid, as you say, but also inulin.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: And inulin is a whole prebiotic, so it's just brilliant, and what you know that will do is feed the good bacteria in the skin, and and when you have a good kind of healthy microbiome, that's going to really help prevent inflammation, and so it has this, you know, it gets goes back to barrier support, and you know, happy skin is is strong skin and resilient skin.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not for us, we're not always just trying to calm skin, we're trying to um support it.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I know it better than anyone with a condition like Otacaria.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: And you will know this too.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean part of it is actually, yeah, not just um it it's understanding it, understanding that condition and building and building that resilience.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um working sometimes in a preventative way too.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's a really simple well, yeah.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it's not actually that simple, but an i it's it's a product that I I found personally so helpful for my own skin, partly because it's it's cooling.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: So um my condition is my gets very hot.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean my skin gets extremely hot and it just it just it cools the skin down, but it also just layers in this hydration and and it's just beautiful to use in between products.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like a core part of my regime now and has been for about eight years, but now on a kind of more souped up level, it's just delivering so much more for the skin.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a really really great way to just um yeah, keep the skull, can keep the skin calm, but also suited, you know, suitably replenished and and hydrated.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a nice little break.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: I love that you love it.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I I love that I love it too.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's a really great product and it's a very nice, refreshing uh moment in the day whenever you use it.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I think right now I brought this up because I have noticed that everybody is gravitating towards mist products, but it's like, you know, I mean, not all mists are made the same, you know.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: So there are very few ones I really, really enjoy, and I really like this one a lot.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's very, it's nice, you know, it's a pick-me-up during the day.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, I like that you've kept it simple in the sense of like the comp the things that you're trying to accomplish for skin health.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: You know, obviously hydration is one of the most key components for great skin, you know, as you know.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I actually wrote a mini opinion paper just the other day about this, about how everybody is talking about well, pH this and pH that, and we have to, you know, match the acid mantle of our skin.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm sitting here thinking, like, that's just such a terrible way to approach it, because again, you can't target things like that.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: You you know what I mean?
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like, it's more of like a you have to naturally let your skincare match your skin's physiology because there's different compartments.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: There's a there's a topical compartment on top of your cells, there's intracellular, intercellular, subcellular, and all of those areas have different pHs.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: So, like for I'm just using this as an example, is some brands that just focus on okay, this is super acidic, you know what I mean?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's great for your skin, acid mantle, you know, all that stuff.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, no, again, with the words, you know, like you can't focus on one thing, and I think skin is so dynamic.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so this layering and this um multifactorial aspect, I think it's shown very well in clean brands.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's really what I'm trying to get at is that it's it's you know, there it's the closest you can get to really understanding how to treat the skin because there's no one answer, you know what I mean?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think on the in the yeah, in the simplest um in the simplest terms, I believe that products should support your skin's natural processes and never suppress them.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when talking about pH, I mean, yes, it's really a complex area, but I think what um when I say I never suppress or disrupt, and I think actually it's cleansing that can actually really disrupt your your skin's pH.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: And the wrong cleansing can actually send you down a really a really bad path.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it's again just using products that are going to keep your skin in balance and support its support what it needs to do, um, but not disrupt.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean I agree, and I think it's not just cleansing, it's the whole process, right?
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: That's why a skincare routine, in my opinion, is important because like I said, I mentioned hydration.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: Well, hydration helps the pH, you know.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: That's what that it's like people, I feel like consumers have like one, like this is a movie, and you're they're watching one snapshot at a time.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what irritates me because I'm like, you know, I we we start this conversation about one thing, but then it's like you have to understand it's a whole thing that it's a whole moving organism kind of thing.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, your organ is constantly evolving, all of your organs are evolving and and changing, and so you need dynamic skincare for that dynamic, you know, uh just everyday process that occurs in your skin.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: But I um I actually want to ask you like, you know, you have been around, you've seen the clean beauty movement, the green beauty movement, natural, organic.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I just want to get your take on what your opinion has been.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what are some things you've seen like really change, I guess, Christine, or in a good way, or maybe you know, in a negative way, if you could share that with us.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've seen a lot, I've seen a lot change.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think good, yeah, and to your point, go down bad.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, let's talk about clean for a minute.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when I started out, the word didn't exist, and the and certainly the the that kind of category didn't just exist.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um and the positive of it is that it's absolutely hugely expanded the natural category um and interest um in the in kind of natural ingredients and actually getting people reading ingredient lists that would never have before.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, hallelujah.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: So so it in many ways it's opened a lot more people up to this space, which is great.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: The challenge is that as you you know you alluded to earlier, there's so many brands are piled in and there's just you know, I don't want to get too fixated on the term clean, but it's just a self-referring standard, it doesn't mean anything.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: Brands can just say what it means for them and their business, and you know, does that make them better or worse than the next brand who have a different set of standards for their definition of clean is just not particularly helpful.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: But what it does mean is that you know what what bugged me about greenwashing and back when I started is now um ten times worse.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I never predicted that.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: I never thought it would get worse, I thought it'd get better.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and that's really disappointing.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when um we've never needed more sort of um independent standards around labeling and terms that we use around organic or natural or whatever, I think that's really, really important.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And certainly when I started the business, we you know we've been certified organic since day one.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I we we're certified organic because I working with the ingredients, I realized that certified organic are complete, it they're kind of another level quality in terms of concentration and and purity and and kind of properties, but I also realize what it meant for you know the whole cultivation and extraction and the whole supply chain of it is properly looked after, people within it are properly looked after.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, okay, I'm gonna run a business, I want to sleep at night.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it was you know, the ethical dimensions of that just aren't understood.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: So that was really important.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: But sorry, to the kind of the point of this is that we need more of those kind of kite marks of authenticity, and it it doesn't, you know, I think natural or clean or whatever, it means different things to different people, and and and every customer cares about a different element of it.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think if you're going out to make claims, you know, pick your value and and certify yourself to that stuff to that value and and prove that that what you know what you're saying is true.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's super important because there's so so much lack of and just distinct lack of trust now.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think you know that's what I've seen change is that the need for these um authentication is is never been greater.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um and the positive of that is it's starting to happen.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: So certainly here in Europe we now have a I think it's called the Code of Green.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: What's it called?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: Green Code of anyway, I'll send it to you.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: But uh it's a new standard to actually try and impose some restrictions on what you can and can't say, and and it a degree of monitoring.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a fully kind of it's not legislation yet, but I think we're getting there.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's been set up by the compet competition and markets authority.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's quite an interesting step.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: But you've also got platforms like Provenance.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you know it, it's fascinating.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: Go.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And encourage you to check it out, but that's really helpful because that point of purchase, and it's now online at the moment, but it will ultimately be installed too.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: You can there's someone verifying product brands claims, and they're called proof points.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you can click on them.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: And if a brand says they're natural, you can, you know, that there are proof points that you can click on to say, we as this independent body can certify that this is true, and this is what this particular standard means.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because also, there's like over across the globe, there's so many different natural standards, there's so many, you know, it's very that's that's confusing on its own.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it it will it'll explain what that standard means, but it will consistently do that.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it's the same wherever you read it.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: So there's some really fascinating developments.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's sort of still started not great from a clean greenwashing point of view, clean washing, it's got a whole lot worse, but I see like there's a light on the end of the tunnel.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, to just but we you know we've got to substantiate claims.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's one of the three things I've seen.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: The other, I guess the other one is around sustainability, and I think that again, this is there's a positive story here, which is you know, we as an industry are produce a lot of packaging and historically a lot of packaging that's pretty hard to uh onwardly recycle.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh which brings and anyway, that brings its own set of complexity too.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, we produce a lot of stuff and and a lot was going into landfill.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: So um so there's been huge developments in terms of packaging uh with PCR plastics and bioplastics and um and recycling schemes and terror cycle schemes, all it's all great, but it it's it's still difficult uh for customers, I think.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I think the the challenge I have now is huge progress there, but we're not thinking about true end of life of products.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we're thinking about the pack, basically.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: We're not thinking about everything that's going into that bottle.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: And we need to, you know, we need to think, you know, and I would love everyone, you know, listen to think, you know, where how is your product made?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: How is it made?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: How's it come into being?
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: And and and what happens at the end of the life after you've disposed of that bottle, maybe you know, very, very responsibly.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: What about if it's a wash-off product, what you know, what happens when it was washed away?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Has someone checked that those ingredients do biodegrade well?
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it brings you back to it brings you back to that organic standard because again, that was a that was a key point where all of those all of the ingredients you choose are checked for biodegradability.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um for their biodegradability in it, and that's really, really important.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's that's what I'd love to see more of is is thinking about sustainability in its sort of end-to-end in a way.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the challenge with it and why I think it won't well, I'd love it to happen in my lifetime.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think the real challenge is it's very hard for brands to do because if you don't make your own products and you're not certified by an independent body that's looking at your ingredient choices, it's almost impossible.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how you could possibly know what's in the bottle, genuinely, and and how how they how those in how those ingredients have come into being, whether it's been they've been synthesized in a lab or whether they've been cultivated, um, what that supply chain and or or process behind it underpinning it looks like.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: How those people are treated, how those communities, you know, how is it affecting local communities?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: You can't know.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you say and and then again it's you I don't think you can you you would know unless you're incredibly conscientious as a brand and you do these biodegradability tests yourself, which would be uh pretty difficult and and pretty expensive.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't know how you can know.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so that means that it it it there remains a minuscule, minuscule minority of of us that can actually um confidently say that we're minimizing impact and and looking at true end of life.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's recording just because of the products we're creating.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Look at how many products launch every day.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, it's it's interesting you bring this up.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: I just I literally just published a paper about nanoparticles and the cosmetic industry and how we need to re-examine what sustainability really means because you can you can think someone someone can tell you, you know, they're a manufacturer or whatever they are, and there's so many of them, right?
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we talk about how many brands there are, but let's talk about how many people are making things like to sell to these brands so that these brands can then further make pro, you know, make the products.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's a really unregulated area.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the biggest things that I see from a toxicology standpoint is this idea of nanoparticle um, you know, toxicity, whether that's to the environment or to people over time and and animals, you know, and I think that that really is a topic that needs to be talked about by um real ecologists, you know, people in science, like we need to start assessing what like the geographical areas of certain, you know, if if one, if if there's 10 brands that are, you know, harvesting or using one geographical area, we need to start doing studies that show things like you know, the soil pH, like what are the long-term impacts of harvesting that area or using those products or depleting those sources?
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: And also um, how much are they really being degraded?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like you said, you know, those are all questions that are also very deep and they're very um involved.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that it's gonna have to, there's gonna have to be a moment that happens where there's a shift between private companies that are certifying things and make it into a more um, I guess if you know, follow academic science in the sense of peer review, in the sense of there's a true regulation.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, some of the examples you gave are definitely great examples these days, you know, certified organic.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: I know that you know, there's a really stringent, that's a really stringent, you know, list of criteria you have to go through.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I know um, what is it, leaping bunny is also a really great um thing to, you know, to have certification through.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: And but I mean there still needs to be a lot more, you know, because there's a lot of layers now.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I think with the just the mass production of products, you know, we can't as an industry say this is safe or this is actually helping the environment or it's not impacting negatively the environment or the people in that environment.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: We can't say that.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: We have no data to say that, you know what I mean?
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like it it's it doesn't make sense to me.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's so it's just I mean, it's fascinating hearing you talk about this because it, I mean, it's when you break it down into all of its constituent parts, I mean, it's just mind-blowingly hard to do that work, you know, just on one ingredient, right?
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: And and so yeah, it's it's a it's a long, long road.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: But what you know, one of the other things I just thought of when you're sort of saying what what's changing, and and I think one of the things that we're certainly looking at as a business that you know, um I feel really good about actually is again, you know, just just thinking about how much we produce as an industry, um and and the impact on on the planet.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think we we in one well a recent launch actually we have used I think it's six different ingredients that have either come from zero waste, they're zero waste ingredients or have come from upcycled their upcycled ingredients.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: So what that means is so so if we take that's one product and it shows what you can do, and and that it is a beautiful, very high performing vitamin C product.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what it kind of shows is what you can do with a bit of consideration and thought that could have a huge impact if if this became an industry trend and shift.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so just to explain what for those who don't know what these terms mean, so so upcycled is when you take an ingredient that's going to be otherwise thrown away.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: So we take a lot from the food industry, and so often seeds from the juicing industry, and then you extract the oil out of those seeds, so they would otherwise be just thrown away.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we are extracting like Bill Bree oil is another is a great example of that.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's a beautiful oil.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's so nourishing and and and and replenishing, it's just a gorgeous, gorgeous oil for the skin.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: And we're so it's that notion of up not recycling, upcycling, it's going back up into a more premium use and more premium product.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a really lovely example.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then you've got the other sort of end of the spectrum almost is zero waste.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that's when we're producing an ingredient, and you know, every manufacturing process delivers a degree of waste, right?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: So rather than us throwing that waste away, we are giving it to make animal feed or to fertilize plants, plant fertilizers, or obviously all natural.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's we're putting it back into life.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Our waste is then going back into life.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um isn't it fantastic?
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that's and that's what you can do now, but with no compromise on the performance of the these are beautiful ingredients.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we need to think about that.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: There are different ways you can do it, and you sort of top and tail it in the way that I've just explained, you know, either taking waste or or managing your waste.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but wouldn't it be wonderful if we were all thinking in that way?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, it would be a different world.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think what you just said is it's so beautiful to me because I remember like the first time I heard of that concept of just, you know, um giving nature what you take from it.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, what the best way you can do that is nutrients.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if you take nutrients out, give it right back, you know, put them right back in.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_02: And Neil deGrasse Tyson was the first person I'd ever heard that had said that.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: He said he was actually talking about his own, you know, wishes of it after he passes away.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: And like, you know, he's like, I want to give back to the earth what it has given me, which is substance, you know, and so it was such a beautiful way to say it.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: It applies to so many different things, and it's such an easy concept to grasp, but yet, you know, going back to your point, you know, what would this world look like if we just did that?
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you just you just give back what you take.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not hard because think about it, it's all about elements, it's all about nitrogen, carbon, oxygen, you know, all these elements.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not that you have to put things back exactly how they were, you just have to put back the raw materials, you know what I mean?
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, yeah, it's very interesting.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but no, I actually really, really love the whole line, you know, Sarah.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's a beautiful line.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I I've really enjoyed using it.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: I've really enjoyed knowing that it's something I can rely on.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: For me, I think um that's huge.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, whenever I try to like whenever I interview any brand, it's I try to point out if that's there in that brand.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I think for everyone listening, um, the more and more we're getting into this world of skin health, and as consumers, the more educated we're getting, it's important to find options that are going to work and they're not going to make your skin worse or even, you know, like change your skin so that if you stop using those products, you are going to now have a reaction.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: That's like, you know, the sensitization aspect is also very important to me.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I think with pie, what I see is just a beautiful brand that, you know, you can incorporate, like I said, you can use it on its own, or you can, if you have a skincare routine, you can incorporate the products very, very seamlessly and beautifully into your routine.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I really commend you for what you've created.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's it shows that it's years and years of hard work.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: It really shows.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, thank you.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, I yeah, it's just fascinating hearing you talk because it's exactly what you said is exactly sort of what I was probably not saying nearly as articulately as you earlier in the in in the recording was just about this point of yes, a product should support your skin's natural processes.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: And what you just said was really interesting, then is not kind of trying to problem solve something and then leave a different problem.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's quite common.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: I see that a lot, and often at Pi, because we we offer you know free consultation services, and we are often on the receiving end of sensitization to other ingredients.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's often what we're dealing with, and we're trying to sort of um help help that person's you know calm their skin back down, and um and it's usually by stopping and and just letting their skin um almost heal itself.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: But we see it a lot, and we see it a lot, particularly with sort of products for acne, is that in trying to treat the act the spot and and the blemish in that moment, you often leave other problems behind.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you can completely kind of desiccate the skin, completely imbalance it and and cause cause other issues.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that and that shouldn't happen.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: You shouldn't be fixing one thing but leaving a different issue.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what we really understand.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: No, I absolutely agree with you.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think that that's a that's a huge you know thing to master, actually.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and then there's very few brands, if you really think about it, that are able to say that.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: Because I know that you know, most people they'll be using a brand for maybe you know, two, three months, stop using it, then they start breaking out, or their skin starts freaking out.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, that's it, it's you know, it's sensitization, it's a whole and this really goes back to that original point of you coming up with a solution for a problem that you personally had.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's where I I find it to be so fascinating because the true essence of I think clean care and the true value is in that.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's what you know, what we started this discussion on, which is you wanted to find a solution to a problem, you know, and that problem was a it's it was basically molecular chaos.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: And to calm down that molecular chaos is what you did.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: So you're not going, you didn't create because of that solution, it's not going to be something that damages your skin further.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's only going to calm your skin, it's only going to help your skin.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's beautiful.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think the whole process, the whole brand, I just I love it.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, really clearly hats off.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: But also to that point that you made, I think what we also are very, very clear on and and really manage expectations is that exactly what you described is the kind of chaos that when you have a skin condition like Hashimoto, or no, sorry, your condition, Hashimoto, mine as a career for skin, is um this kind of idea of chaos and how complex it is that a topical product that you apply is one piece of the jigsaw puzzle.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's not you have to think about everything in its entirety and your health in its entirety.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: So we are very clear to say this will provide comfort and support and re and it will help rebalance and it will do these different things that will really support you in the moment and build strength into the skin and all of those things.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: But you also have to look at your diet, your sleep, your stress, your you know, and that's really important because you can't do it in isolation.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: A topical product will never be the sole fix.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um I don't hear brand owners say that very much because and people want a quick fix, they want the quick fix.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but I mean you can have if you have an like a, for example, like a hypersensitivity reaction, or if you're experiencing, you know, just uh inflammation acute where it just came up, it's redness, you can fix that immediately.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: But there are certain, but like you said, you can't have a quick fix to signs of aging or you know, pigmentation, or yeah, you you have to be patient, but you have to, you know, it's like it it really is what you said.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, you know, if you start a new diet or you go see a nutritionist, what they're not gonna tell you to do this for two days, they're gonna say you stick to this for this many months, and then you're gonna see a change.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I completely agree with you.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's really a mindset that needs to shift.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm just glad that you're, you know, there are brands like yours and you guys are really paving the way for that.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's kind of a um a clear spot in the haze of clean beauty and you know, the gray area that it has now become.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: So I truly appreciate that as a consumer.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_02: But thank you so much, Sarah.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: This was lovely.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: I really enjoyed speaking with you and you know, the line for everyone listening.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: Please go check out the entire range.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's a beautiful product line.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's not very many products, which is another thing I really appreciate because it's not gonna confuse you guys.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: You're not gonna be like wondering what should I get?
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_02: I just get the get all the stuff, okay, and and make a routine for yourself.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's it's really important to have a routine if you stick to it 21 days.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: It takes 21 days to form a habit.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I always try to tell people try it and see what happens to your skin.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: And if you don't see results, then change things around.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: But uh you have to try it for 21 days at least, you know, and and stick to it.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: Totally right.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: And also just on that point about routines, I couldn't agree with you more.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's quite hard to sometimes know how to build a routine.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think we assume a level of knowledge.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: And if you ever, if anyone ever wants advice, we have skin coaches who are available completely free for a consultation, and they will help, they'll ask you a series of questions, but they'll help you work out which product you might start with, which two or three products you could build into a simple routine, and how you build from there.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because often it's so easy to misdiagnose your own skin type, first of all.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: And if you start with the wrong product, it it sort of takes you down the wrong way, and then it takes ages to get back.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's you know, start right from the beginning.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that can be super helpful and get your results quicker.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, if you need advice, that's there for the taking and it's all free.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm you know, that's really, really great that you have that inbuilt because I think that a lot more people need to take advantage of those kind of services.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: You know, just seek an expert.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to figure it out yourself, you know.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: And this is for all the people on Reddit, especially, you know, that are always confused, like, what should I buy?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: What should I combine?
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, that's I think that's wonderful.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: But Sarah, thank you so much.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: This has been so lovely.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: And um, yeah, for everyone listening, please check out the concept art for this episode.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_02: I will tag everything about the brand.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if you have any questions at all, you can always reach out to us um here at Skincare Anarchy and we'll pass along your comments and your questions to the team at Pi Skincare.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: But thank you so much, Sarah.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: This was lovely.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: My pleasure.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me on.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
• 40:53
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• 40:58
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• 41:00
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• 41:15
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• 41:41
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• 41:46
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• 41:52
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• 41:57
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.