Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Mark Donaldson about his choice of Kinda (3/4)

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Talks to Mark Donaldson about his choice of Kinda (3/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a blump. Pen Knife and do it quicker,
• 0:35
  quicker, quicker. Welcome back to Hamster With a
• 0:41
  Blump and Knife, the Doctor Who Commentary Podcast What is a
• 0:45
  commentary podcast actually? Because there are others.
• 0:48
  I am here with the magnificent from On the Time Lash.
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  There's already delivered 2 spectacular episodes of Kinder
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  Mark. How you doing tonight?
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  I'm doing very well. I'm doing very well.
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  I like coming to this podcast. You're always so full of
• 1:05
  compliments for your guests. It's nice, it's nice.
• 1:08
  A bit of validation, you know. Happening on all of these
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  podcast hosts that I adore from their podcast, it's really easy
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  to throw out. You stopped my life from being
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  very boring, you know? How many episodes have you
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  brought out now? Too many, I don't think as many
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  as you to be fair, because you've done like all the docs
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  for who. But you got to remember, 1
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  recording is like 4-6 or potentially 12 episodes.
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  Sure, that's true, but then it's still the same amount of you
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  know, but anyway, we've done loads well.
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  Basically just wanted to say, you know, I've listened to a lot
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  of content this year and you've sort of saved me from some
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  pretty work in retail. So it's very boring.
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  I can, yeah, I remember. More fun, you know?
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  But we are here to talk about Kinder Episode 3.
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  And just to I do this every now and again.
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  Not usually on someone's first go, but you're a pro, so let's
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  do it. I'm going to ask you just to see
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  that you have been paying attention to summarize the
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  events of Kinder today. Off you go, Okay.
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  So the Doctor and his companions of Lance Dundeva, Loca Ness has
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  got with a headache. Tegan's gone for a nap.
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  The Doctor in the anatric explore a big Dome.
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  Tegan's nap turns into something a bit more sinister.
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  She has a bit of a bad dream, gets possessed by a big snake.
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  The Doctor. Anatric get imprisoned by a guy
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  having a nervous breakdown. And there's some strange stuff
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  going on with a small wooden box that the doctor, Sanders and
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  Todd have just opened, and we're about to find out what's inside
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  it. With an ear piercing scream.
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  From with an ear piercing scream.
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  Well, that was beautifully done. Thank you very much.
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  Let's skip into Episode 3 then and see what going on with that
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  box in 54321. Off we go, Here we go.
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  Do you want to do you want a short Peter Howell anecdote?
• 3:23
  I so I studied the National Film TV School where Peter Howell, I
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  don't know if he still is, but he was a regular tutor for the
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  composing department. So I would kind of always see
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  him just around the school. And I was always I need to go
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  and speak to Peter Howell and I never did it.
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  And the day I got closest to speaking to him was I was just
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  in the library doing some work and he was just sat in the
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  library just reading the paper and eating his packed lunch.
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  It was just such a nice image of just serene joy that I couldn't
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  bear to break it. Up I go, do you know what I
• 3:59
  really love your soundtrack for Kinder?
• 4:03
  Because I think, I think that the music in 18, Doctor Who gets
• 4:08
  a bit of a bad rap, I think. But I think Peter Howell took
• 4:12
  that brief of Jonathan Turner going, I want Jean Michel, do I?
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  But with like a BBC budget and a BBC science department, and he
• 4:22
  ran with that and he gave some really great scores.
• 4:26
  One of the reasons I love the Ledger hive, I know it's not one
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  of the most popular of doctors stories is is that soundtrack.
• 4:33
  I think it's stunning. It's music.
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  I don't think it's some music in that it's so great and it's so
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  evocative and it's so futuristic and.
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  It's Warriors gay as well, didn't he?
• 4:45
  That's it. Yeah.
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  Yeah. Score and I think his last one
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  was the two doctors. And that's one of my favorites
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  as well, the way it mixes that sort of Suntar and theme and
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  then the Spanish guitar, yeah. You should have done it, you
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  know. I should have done.
• 5:01
  I should have done. I know.
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  But tells me. It tells me you're not that fan
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  that will intrude somebody's time.
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  I am that fan. Sometimes I think, do you know
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  what stalks me? I think it was because, which is
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  weird, because I was a student at the school.
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  I wasn't just some mad asshole that had wandered into the
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  library. I was an actual student, but I
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  think that was it was that Oh no, you're a student.
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  You need to, you know, be respectful.
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  I'm. Sure, he would have been
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  delighted to for me to tell how great he was, to be honest.
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  That's ultimately that's what actors like, isn't it?
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  And composers and artists, and yeah.
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  Class hosts, you know, and podcast hosts as well, of
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  course, yes. Oh gosh, I love the box is
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  opened. 80s video effects, Yeah, there's a lot of that isn't
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  there in this. There's definitely that kind of
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  ashes to ashes here a boy and stuff like that kind of going
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  on. Yeah, but it's great.
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  It's. Money.
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  They're going to use whatever resources they can, yeah.
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  But it's it's over its time and it does feel like Doctor Who's
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  kind of trying to be sort of a rent for sort of the early 80s,
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  given obviously within its own budgetary constraints.
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  But the biggest assault of video effects in this is the end of
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  episode three. That, yeah.
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  Dream sequence of all the clocks.
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  It's one of my favorite cliffs because it's just so much.
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  It's something you'd only get in Doctor Who.
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  I can't imagine that being in any other television show.
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  Maybe Twin Peaks? Oh yeah, definitely Twin Peaks.
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  But it's a few years away. Yeah, I think, isn't it?
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  Yeah. Groundbreaking.
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  Pioneering I'm Richard Todd's Tears in His Eyes After seeing
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  the boxer Jana again is just. Good actor, You know, he is a
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  good actor. It's all that.
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  It's all those lessons he took from Matthew Waterhouse.
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  Apparently it was appalled by the light in you know, he went.
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  I don't like this in the films. This is very unsympathetic to my
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  age, but again, I think it works inside the confines of the the
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  Dome. I think it would be nice to
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  maybe have a bit of a change in the lighting scheme for when
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  they're out in the jungle. Yeah, and they can do it.
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  Because look at creature from the pit that looks like it's
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  outside most of the time. Exactly.
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  I do think this is a very responsible take on Davidson's
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  Dr. but I can feel the the influence of Ryan for Tom is in
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  there because he does have a bit of authority, even if he is a a
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  bit useless in the Dome. He's he's sort of working things
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  out and he's investigating and now with with Todd as well.
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  But I love the bits later on when she calls him an idiot, and
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  that just feels very pure 5th Doctor.
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  That to me. Yes, definitely.
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  And this bit is lovely as well, where they're trying to decide
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  which way to go, and I think it's this bit in particular we
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  like. I want three seasons of this.
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  Yeah, the chemistry is real, isn't it?
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  But just leave Adrickness and Tegan on Diva Loca and off you
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  go. And it never feels like like
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  with Tegan it is. Sometimes it feels unkindly.
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  Well, call yourself a Time Lord. A broken.
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  Yeah, we would push all that aside and just have some.
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  Yeah, exactly. It's like, I think what 80s
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  Doctor Who always gets wrong is, I think it tries to go all the
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  they love each other, really. But it never comes across.
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  And you get that with like the 10th Doctor and Don and Noble,
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  you know, stuff like that. You don't get it with Tegan and
• 9:00
  the 5th Doctor. One pairing and you're gonna
• 9:03
  think I'm mad. OK, I think I know which one
• 9:08
  you're gonna choose, because surely there can only be one.
• 9:10
  But. Are you gonna you think I'm
• 9:12
  gonna choose 7th Doctor? Nice.
• 9:13
  No, I don't. Oh, it's gonna choose the 6th
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  Doctor male. Oh, right.
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  OK. I just think there's such warmth
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  between those two. It's only two stories.
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  I would agree with that, actually.
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  Not for the adventure. She ain't putting up with none
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  of his shit. And you know, and they've got a
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  really fun rapport. It's it's sunny.
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  It's nice to watch. Yeah.
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  It's a shame we didn't get more of that on telly.
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  I mean, I know, you know, there's loads of Big Finish and
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  stuff, but yeah, because it is Charlie, the timeline has loads
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  of problems. But I think Collins softening
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  and his kind of knowing where to kind of direct that anger is so
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  much better. But never mind, you know, we
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  didn't get that and we didn't get the 5th Doctor in Todd, so
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  you know. Think I was going to say, then
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  which recognition do you think of?
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  Hey, for some reason I thought he's going to say something like
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  the 6th Doctor in Perry. Like you know, because after a
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  certain point they do, you know. With his hands around her
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  throat. Yeah.
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  Oh really? OK, so there's there's a lot.
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  Layers to these scenes that just go completely from my head,
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  Yeah. So it's the sort of gesture
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  style character who is just kind of that quite irritating kind
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  of, oh, he's a kind of wacky comedy character and Johnny Lee
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  Miller's in there somewhere as well.
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  That kid beyond, he's having a great time watching.
• 10:54
  Is that Johnny Lee Miller? No, I don't think it is, but.
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  I think he's younger, isn't he? Yeah, I think so.
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  I mean, technically he's the star of this.
• 11:02
  Technically, yeah, I know he's the biggest star in the whole
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  thing. But yeah, it's it's good.
• 11:09
  I mean it's I like this because it is the docs are kind of the
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  communicating with an alien race, which we've seen hundreds
• 11:19
  of times before. Uses that trick that he's
• 11:21
  learned and he uses that trick, but it's like it's a species
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  that communicate telepathically and non verbally.
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  So it's all about kind of how do you show that on screen and how
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  do you kind of interact? And it's the coin trick.
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  That's an idea. You just a nice shorthand well.
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  That's another throwaway idea that you could technically write
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  a story around not being communicate verbally with a race
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  of people. Well, I think one of the best.
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  I mean, this is completely off topic, but I think one of the
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  best episodes of Star Trek The Next Generation is Darmock,
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  because it does that. It goes, what happens when your
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  universal translator doesn't work and you have to communicate
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  with an alien? Yeah, it's beautiful.
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  And I think you could do a Doctor Who story like that.
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  It's never quite gone to that place before.
• 12:10
  Joe and Mark at hamster. No, it doesn't quite work.
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  Yeah. Yeah.
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  No, I can't. That's actually, but it is a
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  great episode of Buffy is Hush. Where of course, yeah.
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  It is. And it's a stunning, yeah, it
• 12:36
  really is. Yeah, there's there's a lot of
• 12:38
  talking on telly, isn't there? Need less of it.
• 12:41
  Like what's going on now? Completely lost the plot.
• 12:48
  They I think they've just figured out that Iris is angry
• 12:55
  and trying to lead an upright. It's that this bit.
• 12:58
  He has voice, yes. He has voice.
• 13:00
  That's it. Yes.
• 13:03
  In that crowd somewhere is Glenn Murphy, who played Dibba in The
• 13:07
  Mysterious Planet. Oh, is he?
• 13:10
  Gotta say, he looks far less sexy when he's wrapped up in a
• 13:13
  towel like that with no beard. Oh, I think I know the guy.
• 13:18
  I think I know who it is because I think when I was watching this
• 13:20
  earlier that I really recognized that guy because I think he gets
• 13:25
  a. Bad shot.
• 13:27
  Just in the background. Yeah, there he is there.
• 13:28
  Yeah, he's just behind. Anyone.
• 13:31
  Who's listening to this podcast? You and me pointing at the
• 13:34
  screen. Yeah, no, this is true.
• 13:36
  He's behind the the the girl. What's her name again?
• 13:41
  Karuna. Karuna, Yes.
• 13:43
  So he's behind Karuna just before it cuts back to the Dome
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  for. This to me is pure Doctor Who
• 13:51
  and it is that mixture of something that is completely
• 13:55
  absurd and very scary. Yes, so.
• 13:59
  These bombs that they put all around the Dome and then they're
• 14:04
  just sort of joking and talking about making this city like a
• 14:07
  pair of kids that he minute they could.
• 14:10
  Create an explosion that takes out everybody on this planet.
• 14:15
  It's it's utterly chilling, but utterly silly.
• 14:22
  And that isn't that Doctor Who. Isn't that just the best of
• 14:26
  Doctor Who at the end of the day?
• 14:28
  Watched a few like you know, Troll Darwin.
• 14:31
  Terror of the Autumns. Yeah.
• 14:34
  Absurd. And it's terrifying at the same
• 14:37
  and how it manages then. But I like that about Dog too,
• 14:42
  that it dares to be a bit tonally courageous like that.
• 14:47
  Definitely, because I think it would be a much weaker show and
• 14:51
  I don't think it would have lasted as as long as it has if
• 14:54
  if it didn't take those risks. Sometimes it can sort of fail
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  dismally when trying and depending on where your scale
• 15:02
  is, like something like the happiness patrol you leave I
• 15:05
  think is a complete success. Or total failure?
• 15:10
  How masterpiece? Everyone that comes in this
• 15:14
  loves having this patrol and it shouldn't be in black and white.
• 15:20
  Stand by that. More of those tilted angles, you
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  know, that they started out with.
• 15:24
  Yeah, that's good. Oh, so we're heading into The
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  Cave now, for we're heading into The Cave.
• 15:30
  And it is a brilliant way of delivering an exposition because
• 15:33
  she just has these very poetic. Sort of ambiguous statements
• 15:37
  that she makes about the wheel turning.
• 15:40
  Yeah, she's just brilliant as well.
• 15:42
  Just that kind of baffled. You have seven So many
• 15:52
  questions, Docter, right? The door locks got a bit of
• 15:58
  bounce to it, hasn't it? It does.
• 16:03
  Yeah, that Hindel. Oh God, Hindel, Hindel.
• 16:06
  And Patrick is quite. There's a lot of energy to that
• 16:12
  and it is quite intense. I know Waterhouse doesn't always
• 16:15
  quite hit those, but God love him.
• 16:18
  He is really trying to kind of match Simon Rice.
• 16:22
  I don't think he's but no, no. But God loves it, yeah.
• 16:29
  Did you see Simon rouse his face when he just went one word?
• 16:33
  Like I will murder everybody and then the next set goes.
• 16:37
  Why can't we all just play the game?
• 16:39
  Yeah, it's it's incredible. It's and actually kind of
• 16:45
  watching it now you know, this idea of a slightly monomaniacal
• 16:54
  style dish entitled Individually, who has control
• 16:59
  over the button, quite chillingly pressing.
• 17:03
  I'll imagine that ever coming past, you know, oh, this is
• 17:08
  great. Held our breaths for four years.
• 17:11
  Yeah, almost. Is this it?
• 17:20
  This is great. I mean this.
• 17:22
  I don't think it's in this bit because I've got subtitles on,
• 17:25
  but what? You know, you're talking about
• 17:27
  sort of great one liners and stuff like that.
• 17:31
  What one of the best lines of this is is Mary Morris's.
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  It's something like voice does not guarantee wisdom or
• 17:39
  something like that. You know, that was one of the
• 17:41
  ones I was like, that's a story there, Yes, Yes.
• 17:46
  Never. Also, I think words to live by
• 17:48
  as well, which is maybe a terrible thing to say for a
• 17:50
  podcaster. Like.
• 17:53
  How many words have I put out? They have any meaning?
• 18:00
  Yeah, Mark. Are you?
• 18:02
  Yes. Am I what sorry?
• 18:04
  Many idiots. Yeah.
• 18:06
  Oh, I absolutely. Is that a double meaning for
• 18:10
  something else, like a eunuch or?
• 18:15
  I'm not sure what she's trying to say to him.
• 18:19
  Well, I mean, you could argue that Kinder proves that the
• 18:22
  Doctor was always capable of regenerating into women because
• 18:27
  he didn't go mad when he looked at the box of Java when he was
• 18:31
  the 5th when they were the 5th Doctor.
• 18:33
  He's a hermaphrodite, really. There's nothing going on down
• 18:36
  there. I'll be cancelled now.
• 18:39
  They'll be up in arms coming with a lighting in this cave.
• 18:48
  Yeah, the Greenwood lighting. No.
• 18:52
  Well, it's something Greenway's going.
• 18:56
  We haven't given it much atmosphere in the forest.
• 18:59
  Well, that's, I mean, it would have been like hellish if they'd
• 19:02
  gone into The Cave and it was still just like that star.
• 19:05
  Quite like, hang on, hang on, could we maybe just turn it down
• 19:13
  a little bit? But like we said, these things.
• 19:16
  Were my fast. And the fact that that there is
• 19:19
  as much successful, very strange imagery and historian as there
• 19:23
  is, it is phenomenal. Just how much this this does
• 19:28
  achieve. Oh, here we go.
• 19:29
  This is the vision, isn't it? Wheel turns, wheel turns old
• 19:35
  woman. We're just going to quote the
• 19:38
  thing now, yes, at that stage of the commentary.
• 19:43
  How many drinks down? I But yeah, I just don't have
• 19:50
  much to say about Harris. I just don't.
• 19:54
  I think it's. I think it's a noble attempt to
• 19:58
  kind of go right. We're not going to do this sort
• 20:01
  of slightly misogynistic biblical thing where oh, it's,
• 20:06
  you know, it's a woman tempting, tempting the men folk into
• 20:10
  making a terrible decision. It's just Tegan just passes the
• 20:14
  marrow into Iris and then Iris is the kind of destructive male,
• 20:18
  and then you've got the other destructive men in the Dome, and
• 20:20
  it's all about the damage that men can do.
• 20:24
  But also, I kind of wish Iris was.
• 20:26
  Better, yeah, they were just the performance.
• 20:29
  But they literally put ours in like a tank, don't they?
• 20:32
  Yeah, yeah, kind of constructs a woods, a sort of wooden vine,
• 20:36
  which is. Great.
• 20:38
  It's a great idea. It doesn't.
• 20:40
  They don't pull it off quite so well, but look on his face when
• 20:42
  it sets on fire, he's like, oh. That's the better.
• 20:45
  I was saying like when I said, you know, like he's got some
• 20:48
  cheek sort of talking about actors not being in the zone
• 20:52
  when he's constantly. Mine juice.
• 20:55
  Is this is this going to burn me?
• 20:57
  Is this going? To or is and see Matthew
• 20:59
  Waterhouse tentatively touching the buttons in Earth Shock on
• 21:02
  that. Blow.
• 21:04
  He's like, I hear the BBC explosions in the studios were
• 21:10
  quite large, so maybe they were wise to.
• 21:13
  Maybe, yeah. Although it is just a very tiny
• 21:15
  flame on that. But we'll get to that.
• 21:18
  We'll get to that. I heard that story of Elizabeth
• 21:21
  Slaven, me, the special effects man, and they said don't worry,
• 21:24
  you're in safe hands with him. And she looks at him and it's
• 21:26
  got scars all over his face. And he's and he'll never let it
• 21:30
  happen again. Yeah, health and safety
• 21:35
  legislation. Yeah, no, just really bad facial
• 21:39
  scars. That's all you need to stop
• 21:41
  accidents in the workplace? Oh, I figured Mary Morris had a
• 21:44
  load of facial scars, but she's just an old woman.
• 21:46
  Isn't she? She is an old woman.
• 21:53
  Who are you? This is great because more often
• 21:58
  than not you would have Iris confronting the Doctor at this
• 22:01
  stage in Part 3, but all of it is taking place between him and
• 22:07
  the old woman you know. And the Doctor and told her just
• 22:10
  in The Cave kind of watching it take place.
• 22:13
  What happens in the visitation, isn't it?
• 22:14
  It's the Doctor and the Teralector at the end of episode
• 22:17
  3 have a massive confrontation. Yeah, next story.
• 22:21
  But instead, it's the Doctor actually just standing back and
• 22:25
  observing and learning what he kind of needs to do in Part 4,
• 22:30
  which is Hannah an hour or so. That's that's the danger of
• 22:33
  Doctor Who, right? It's because they'll bring in
• 22:35
  sophisticated actors and they'll bring in the local and DRAM
• 22:39
  group, and sometimes they'll put them in the same scene against
• 22:41
  each other, and the contrast is stark.
• 22:44
  Yes, definitely. Powers is terrible for that.
• 22:48
  You got some brilliant actors in there, then you got those kangs
• 22:52
  in the same scene and you're like, oh.
• 22:54
  Yeah, those kind of, yeah. Theater school kids haven't
• 22:59
  quite graduated yet. They're kind of plate their
• 23:01
  their final year placement. He wants to how you?
• 23:07
  Do do we? No, Patrick, but you are right.
• 23:16
  Like Patrick's basically. He's there with the main villain
• 23:20
  of the piece. He's just trying to stop the
• 23:23
  bombs from going off. Yeah, he is.
• 23:27
  And this is the doctors just bogging off and left him.
• 23:31
  It says a lot about. The Doctor, Patrick.
• 23:35
  But yeah, it is. He realizes how dangerous Hindel
• 23:40
  is. And it is about how do I get out
• 23:43
  of here to get the doctor to come back and and sort of fix
• 23:46
  everything I do like sort of Patrick's proactiveness in the
• 23:51
  stories. He's all, he's very sort of
• 23:55
  willing to get up and do it, but he's just so often written as a
• 23:59
  petulant child, you know? Yeah.
• 24:04
  Oh, look at this. This is.
• 24:07
  Great perfects outside the tunnel.
• 24:11
  There's actually, to be fair, you can't.
• 24:13
  I mean, you can see the join, it's the fringing, that's it.
• 24:17
  But it's quite smart. And that all the way through
• 24:21
  that scene where they're advocate before the effect comes
• 24:23
  in, you're not immediately going or they're going to just paste
• 24:26
  an effect over that in a second. So this to me is like Doctor Who
• 24:30
  in a nutshell because it's it's a cheap set and it's a few
• 24:34
  extras, you know, in tatty costumes and things like that,
• 24:38
  but it is weird and scary. It's.
• 24:41
  Just like, again, is that kind of dream thing.
• 24:45
  It's just all these kind of disparate images.
• 24:47
  It's clocks. It's egg timers.
• 24:50
  It's a. Mad video effect.
• 24:53
  It's it's kind of wearing that weird cloak and sort of hood
• 24:58
  towel thing, arms wide like that, that she and look at this
• 25:03
  dry eyes with the effects on it. It looks terrifying.
• 25:06
  Yeah, and then he kind of this jester guy, just, it looks like
• 25:12
  he's kind of burning to death when he does that.
• 25:15
  When he falls like he does that and I think maybe a not we to
• 25:22
  use the powers of this story. It's all a bit amateurish.
• 25:27
  But actually interestingly my graph has a podcast where he
• 25:32
  watches Doctor Who through with a non fan been brought up on
• 25:37
  modern television. They they're in season 19 at the
• 25:40
  moment they've just done kinder. She declared this one of the
• 25:42
  best stories she's seen so far, and this scene one of the best
• 25:45
  scenes she's seen so far. I think because I think if you
• 25:51
  are brought up a modern telly and.
• 25:54
  And I I regularly implore a few fans to watch things other than
• 25:58
  Doctor Who. But I think if you are brought
• 26:01
  up on modern telly and you are brought up on stuff like Twin
• 26:04
  Peaks. And I mean a lot of shows took
• 26:07
  that. Not nearly to the same lengths
• 26:09
  as Twin Peaks, but a lot of them took that kind of weird dream
• 26:13
  logic and kind of odd images and kind of a more ambiguous tone.
• 26:23
  Yeah, and you don't always get a Doctor Who, But actually, if you
• 26:26
  look at the kind of wider television landscape, a lot of a
• 26:30
  lot of stuff was kind of doing that.
• 26:32
  I'm gonna ask a question then, and that is, what would you
• 26:36
  recommend then from television coming out now that isn't Doctor
• 26:39
  Who? Oh, what would ever Oh God,
• 26:44
  there isn't Star Trek the Star Trek Strange.
• 26:47
  Your worlds is great, no? And the bear?
• 26:49
  That's brilliant. Love that?
• 26:51
  What's that? It's a drama series about a sort
• 26:55
  of gourmet, well, like a sort of Michelin star chef, sort of, who
• 27:00
  inherits a sandwich shop from his dead brother and decides to
• 27:04
  kind of turn it into his own restaurant.
• 27:06
  And it's brilliant. It's tense, it's funny, and it's
• 27:11
  just all about kind of the creative process and kind of
• 27:15
  finding your thing. It's great.
• 27:18
  I love it. It's the best thing I've seen,
• 27:20
  you know, in a long time. But obviously it's not very
• 27:22
  weird. So, so in terms of so it's not a
• 27:24
  great recommendation compared to that.
• 27:26
  But I think you what you said that I know people that just
• 27:29
  watch Doctor Who and then a load of vintage TV, I think dangerous
• 27:34
  path because sometimes Doctor Who isn't the most sophisticated
• 27:38
  looking thing. That's all right, you know.
• 27:40
  Exactly. Like it's Yeah, TV didn't stop
• 27:44
  getting made in 1989. I mean, they made bugs in the
• 27:48
  1990s. I remember as a kid and then I
• 27:55
  tried to watch it when it went all went up in brick box and it
• 27:58
  was like, oh, this is quite fun, but I'm not sure if I can do the
• 28:01
  whole binge watch thing. That was my Doctor Who for the
• 28:06
  90s, you know, and so much so I've actually got Steven
• 28:09
  Gallagher and Colin Brake. Coming on in a couple of weeks.
• 28:12
  Oh, great, Just about bugs. Because he was the scripted
• 28:16
  creators. My last question then before we
• 28:21
  out episode 3 is do you think that episode ended in the right
• 28:25
  place? Because I think any other place
• 28:28
  it would end with is the end of everything.
• 28:30
  So I always think that's where it ends.
• 28:34
  Always, Every single time I watch it.
• 28:37
  I'm always surprised when it cuts back to The Cave and they
• 28:43
  go and find and she's dead. It just really just takes.
• 28:50
  You out of everything. And I and I don't know why, I
• 28:54
  always forget it's there. And I think I always forget it's
• 28:55
  there because it feels like that's the start of part 4.
• 28:59
  It's not the end of part three. I think that's kind of my take
• 29:04
  on it, isn't it? Yeah, the pace and the momentum
• 29:08
  of that dream sequence is ratcheting up to that, and all
• 29:12
  those clocks are going off. Yeah, and then it just kind of
• 29:17
  Peters out. It's very odd.
• 29:20
  Very odd. Now we like Panna, but I know we
• 29:22
  like her that much. Yeah, exactly.
• 29:25
  And she's not really dead. No, she's not, actually.
• 29:29
  Because you know the circle wheel turns the.
• 29:32
  End is the beginning, wheel turns, time is a flat circle.
• 29:36
  I'm going to end it there.